Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Apr 1964

Vol. 209 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 11—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

Before reporting progress last night, I was referring to the fact that the Budget tells the same old story of increased taxation, more borrowing and fewer benefits. There is nothing in this Budget to indicate new thinking on economic and social problems. It contains no indication as to how the ambitious targets set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion can be achieved. There is no provision in this Budget for the drastic overhaul of our educational services which is so necessary and no provision for a reorganisation of our health services.

The Budget does not remedy what is perhaps the most glaring social injustice of all time, that is, the treatment of pensioners. There is, however, some measure of relief in the Budget for our farmers and, coming from a constituency which more than any other, is vitally dependent on the dairying industry, I welcome the 2d. increase in the price of creamery milk for which the Budget provides. In view of the fact that I have advocated that increase so often here, it would be churlish of me not to acknowledge the small concession provided.

You mean the small concession that has been wrung out of them.

Quite a lot has been said about this increase of 2d. but I welcome the increase for three reasons. First of all, I welcome it because it will grant some measure of relief to our hard pressed dairy farmers. Secondly, I welcome it because I hope it will help to secure the increased milk output which is now necessary and thus help us to meet our export commitments during 1964. The third reason I welcome the increase is one which has been overlooked by most other speakers in this debate. I am hopeful that as a result of the price increase, the output of milk will expand to the extent that it will prevent the closing down of our creameries as recommended in the report of the survey team which examined the dairy products industry. Indeed, in a constituency such as East Limerick where industrial employment depends almost entirely on the products of the dairy farmer—and the same applies to workers in the city of Limerick—it is only natural that I should be concerned with this aspect.

I was very much surprised at the attitude adopted by some Deputies towards this increase and particularly at the attitude adopted by Deputy Coughlan from my own constituency when he spoke here last week. He referred to the demands of the dairy farmers and said that the protest marches were organised by ranchers and that ranchers' sons participated in them. Possibly he did not realise what he was talking about. I saw the people who marched in the city of Limerick and from my own knowledge I doubt if there was any rancher amongst them. If Deputy Coughlan looks at the Statistical Abstract he will find in Table 71 that 85 per cent of the farms in County Limerick are under £50 valuation and something like 66 per cent of the farmers are under £30 so I do not know where the question of ranchers comes in. An interesting sidelight on the question of the increase in the price of milk granted in the Budget is to be found in a report of a symposium held last week at Newcastle West and attended by Mr. O'Reilly, general manager of An Bord Bainne. Mr. O'Reilly said that the increase in the price of milk was very significant as well as being much deserved and much needed. He went on to review the efforts of Bord Bainne to reorganise the marketing of dairy products and in this connection he mentioned a most important point. In 1964 the Board, in fact, found itself faced with a shortage of milk to match the requirements of its export commitments. It was anticipated, said Mr. O'Reilly, for the current year the total availability of milk for international and domestic needs would be something like 350,000,000 gallons or 7,000,000 gallons less than last year. This being so he hoped that the increased milk price would help to stimulate production and enable them to meet their commitments in the markets they had established abroad.

Personally, I have never taken a narrow view on this question of an increase in the price of milk being of value only to the dairy farmer. I am glad to see that my views have been borne out in the statements I have quoted. There is another aspect also. One of the subjects under discussion at this symposium concerned a powdered milk factory, for which negotiations had been going on for a year and a half, and which had not materialised. Mr. O'Reilly said any further diversification would upset the programme for 1964. Another speaker, Mr. Patrick Kelly of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, said that in his opinion it would be disastrous at the moment to establish any further milk powder factories in view of our present commitments on the home and export butter markets.

The increase in the price of milk is very much overdue and is very much needed. Because the increase was not granted long ago we now have a situation in which we are faced with a shortage of milk to meet all our export commitments. On the other hand, in County Limerick at least, we have lost one industry because proper encouragement was not given to milk production in recent years. While I welcome the increase I do not admit that it is a generous concession. In fact, it does very little more than cancel out the levy and certainly bears no relationship to the increased cost of milk production over the past decade. I regret that it was not found possible to grant a worthwhile increase when the decision was being made, an increase which would really stimulate increased output and enable existing milk processing industries to operate at full capacity and also enable further processing industries to be established.

Some speakers expressed the fear that an increase in the price of milk would automatically lead to an increase in the price of butter. I do not accept that argument and I am very glad the Minister for Industry and Commerce allayed any fears there might be in that respect. The argument that an increase in the price of milk would automatically lead to an increase in the price of butter has been expressed time and again over the past decade as a reason for not granting an increase in the price of milk. I do not accept that argument. The dairy industry occupies such an important place in our economy that it merits special consideration in the matter of State assistance.

I am not merely referring to farmers. There are something like 100,000 dairy farmers. I am including their families, workers employed by dairy farmers, workers employed in creameries and in the various processing plants. Then, of course, there must be taken into account the exports provided by the dairying industry and directly and indirectly, the key place it occupies in the production of cattle. Although I have not been able to find any definite figures for it, I believe that every £1 million invested in the dairying industry by way of Government subsidy would yield a far greater dividend than £1 million invested in any other direction.

The next concession that has been granted to agriculture is an increase in the price of pigs. This is also a very small concession but, as a Deputy for a constituency which has been traditionally associated with the bacon industry, which in recent times has been trying to operate in very difficult circumstances, I hope the concession, small as it is, will stimulate and increase pig production and thereby prevent the wholesale closure of bacon factories which was recommended in another report produced during the past year.

The next item is the rate relief. This, of course, is a valuable concession also but, again, it is very small and, in fact, is merely a stop-gap measure which does not attempt to solve the overall problem represented by the incidence of local taxation. I understand that somebody has been examining the structure of local taxation over the past few years. It is high time something was done to reduce the colossal burden represented by rates, not merely on the farmer but also on the urban dweller. This Budget has not brought a solution to that problem any nearer.

Having dealt with the concessions that have been granted, I want to say a few words about the additional taxation. First of all, the increase in the price of petrol is a very bad thing. It will add considerably to transport and manufacturing costs and will have an adverse effect on the tourist industry. In recent years the number of British tourists who have been coming here for a motoring holiday has been increasing, as has the number of tourists hiring self-drive cars. I fear that the increase in the price of petrol will have a very adverse effect in that connection. Up to now we have been finding it difficult to compete with continental countries in attracting tourists who desire a motoring holiday.

Apart from the tourist industry and apart from the additional cost to manufacturing industries and business in general, the increase in the price of petrol will affect everybody, including workers, many of whom now have to use a small car or motor-cycle in order to get to their work.

Time alone will tell whether the law of diminishing returns will operate in relation to the increase in the price of cigarettes. Last year, in his Financial Statement, the Minister seemed convinced that the law of diminishing returns would operate. In view of the research that has been carried out as to the relationship between cigarette smoking and cancer and the publicity that research has received, there is every reason to believe that the further increase in the price of cigarettes this year will be followed by a reduction in cigarette smoking.

A great deal has been said about the increased Post Office charges. That is also a serious matter. There is very little justification for them.

When referring to the concessions granted in the Budget, I omitted reference to the five per cent increase granted to State pensioners. It is doubtful if it can be called concession. In my opinion it is ridiculous and the less said about it the better. The whole approach to pensioners is entirely wrong.

To come to the general from the particular, may I say that in previous Budget debates I have referred to the increased cost of public administration? This year the situation is even wrose. Not alone has there been no brake applied but it does not seem that any attempt has been made to effect economies in the cost of public administration. In recent years the Taoiseach and other Government spokesmen have been exhorting business firms and management to modernise and to gear their industries to greater efficiency. Surely, in this age of scientific management and efficiency expertise, it should be possible to effect some economy in the cost of public administration?

In regard to savings, the position last year was somewhat disappointing. That is not surprising in view of the increase in the cost of living. Prize bonds continue to be a valuable instrument of saving. On previous occasions I made the suggestion that it might be worthwhile to experiment in order to see if a reduction in the value of the bond would lead to greater investment. I suggested a figure of £2 which might bring bonds within the reach of the ordinary worker.

There is another method of saving to which I also referred in a previous debate. It is the unit trust. As a method of investment and saving the unit trust has made tremendous strides in Britain in recent times. In fact, there has been an overflow into this country in recent months. I have been considering if it might be possible to introduce a system of unit trusts based on the semi-State companies. I do not know whether that would be feasible or not. If it were, it would be very desirable. A unit trust is a tremendous instrument of saving. Its main advantage lies in the fact that it brings the investment within the reach of the smallest investor. It would be an encouragement to workers, particularly workers in large industries, to invest in such industries, thereby giving the workers a better interest in the running of industry.

I take it the Budget is an appropriate measure on which to discuss the general question of economic development. We have come to the end of the first five-year programme and have been issued with the outline of the Second Programme which will take us up to 1970. Before looking at the Second Programme, it is well to take stock of the progress or lack of progress achieved by the first one. Despite all the boasting there has been about the success of the First Programme, when it is subjected to close examination and critical analysis, it will be found that its achievements were very few indeed.

Let us look at a few facts and figures. I realise a considerable amount of time in this debate has been taken up with quotations from statistical abstracts and official publications. I do not intend to bore the House any further with those, but I should like to give a few relevant figures. Taxation has increased each year to a record figure of £250 million last year. This year £82 million will be borrowed. The national debt has also gone up. The cost of running the country has gone up by £100 million in seven years. Our adverse trade balance is £110 million and we had an adverse balance of payments last year of £22 million.

The question of employment is a very important criterion in an economy such as ours. There are 70,000 fewer people employed to-day than there were in 1956. On 4th April this year, there were 57,957 unemployed, 200 more than a year ago and 3,000 more than two years ago. In that period more than a quarter of a million emigrated and last year, according to the Minister for Health, who, over the week-end, thought it well to clear the air, admitted that 25,000 people emigrated. The numbers employed on the land have gone down by 54,000 since 1957.

Another method of gauging progress is a study of housing. Statistics have been quoted lavishly here on this subject. During this debate last year, I gave detailed statistics on housing and recall that the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Malley, who followed me then, was somewhat annoyed that he was not permitted to go into it at similar length. This year, I shall not quote figures because they are now so well known. However, I came across a very interesting document relating to housing which I think the House should be made aware of.

The same document was referred to earlier this year by Deputy Declan Costello during a debate on the Estimate for Local Government. The Irish Times, on Monday, August 5th last year, published a report furnished by the Housing League, an international organisation which obtains from all European countries figures of the average number of houses per thousand of the population built in given periods. In 1962, 23 countries were included from Western and Eastern Europe. Of them all, the country with the lowest number of houses built per thousand of the population was Ireland.

For any Deputy, the acid test of Government policy, the real indication of progress or the lack of progress, will be found in his own constituency. In dealing with the question of economic development, I realise it is a bad thing to be parochial in one's outlook but, at the same time, no Deputy can ignore the evidence he finds in the area he represents. In the constituency of East Limerick, for which I have the honour to be a Deputy, we have an excellent basis for the study of the progress or otherwise of Government policy because it includes a large urban area—Limerick city—medium and small farms, small towns and rural villages.

The picture in the rural part of the constituency is, I suppose, no different from most other constituencies. There are decaying towns and villages, small farm houses locked up, roadside cottages locked up. In a survey carried out within the past six months, the county manager found there were 135 cottages locked up in Limerick. Because of conditions in small homesteads, the shutters have been going up. Small shops in towns are being locked up as well.

I recall a sentence generally used at the outbreak of the last war in 1939: "The lights are going out all over Europe." From my knowledge, the lights are going out all over rural Ireland at the present time. I have given an authoritative figure of 135 cottages locked up. In the city of Limerick, to which I referred earlier when dealing with the dairying industry, the bulk of industrial employment is in the traditional food processing business. There has been, for the most part, a lack of new industrial opportunity for employment during the past four or five years, and the 1961 census showed a reduction in the population of Limerick city.

I could quote statistics at length but if we examine the first five years of the Government's expansion programme from the point of view of the country as a whole, and from official statistics published, we find the picture is not good. If we study it from the evidence in our own constituencies, we shall find it equally bad. With the experience of the first plan behind them, it was only logical to expect that the Government would have learned a lesson from their mistakes and that they would have taken appropriate action.

Instead, we find in the second plan only a rehash of the first. No doubt, if implemented it will lead to the same disastrous result. I am convinced that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion will merely continue the policy pursued in the first and will not achieve the targets which have been set for it. I am further convinced that as long as the Government hold office and pursue the same inane policy, we can forecast the same Budget story for future years—more emigration, less employment, higher taxation, poorer social services and fewer benefits.

I believe that it is vitally necessary that we should make a critical reappraisal now of our whole economic development. There must be a willingness to admit past failures and mistakes and there must be a courageous determination to adopt new ideas, new attitudes and a new outlook on this whole question of economic development. One of the most controversial issues in current discussions on economic development is the role of agriculture in an expanding Irish economy. This controversy has been intensified by the publication of the Blue Book, the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. This controversy is very interesting because it emphasises in a very striking manner the fundamental difference in outlook and policy between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

It is now quite obvious that the Government believe that, while agricultural expansion may be desirable, it is not an essential condition for economic growth. This, of course, is a traditional Fianna Fáil approach to economic development. We, in Fine Gael, on the other hand, believe that agricultural expansion is an essential prerequisite for overall economic expansion. Instead of formulating a comprehensive development plan, embracing agriculture as well as industry, the Government have been approaching these two sectors of our economy as if they were completely distinct and separate entities.

There is a marked difference in the approach to the planning for agriculture and the planning for industry. This was brought home when the NIEC was set up and when it became known that agriculture was omitted from it. This omission of agriculture from NIEC has been widely commented on. I believe that the omission was a bad thing. In the Blue Book, the target for agriculture is set at 2.7 per cent and that for industry at seven per cent. Even with that small target of 2.7 per cent. provision is made for industry to enter the picture and step up its contribution in the event of agriculture not reaching this low target. The expansion target set out in the Second Programme will mean a loss of 66,000 workers in agriculture and an increase of 86,000 workers in industry.

It is very difficult, in my opinion to find any grounds for justifying this differential in targets as between industry and agriculture. It is very difficult particularly when we consider that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion is based on the assumption that Ireland will be a member of EEC by 1970. We know —indeed, it became very obvious a year or two ago — that there will be considerable disemployment in industry in the event of our entering EEC. On the other hand, we have been told, and all the experts seem to think, that entry to EEC will open up new opportunities for agriculture. One would have thought, in view of the fact that this Blue Book has been produced on the assumption that we will go into EEC in 1970, that the question of agriculture would have been looked at in a new light, in the light of the opportunities presented by entry to EEC and, more particularly, in the light of the difficulties which will be created for industry.

We, in Fine Gael, do not accept this target of 2.7 per cent as a realistic one. We think—I personally am convinced —that if we are to have a continuance of the agricultural policy pursued by the Government over the past five years this 2.7 per cent might even be optimistic. We, in Fine Gael, believe— I have no doubt whatever—that if we are given a realistic, progressive, dynamic agricultural policy this target of 2.7 per cent could be exceeded; in fact, it could be doubled.

Two very interesting documents have been produced in recent months, two documents which have a very important bearing on this whole question of agricultural development. I refer to the document produced by the National Farmers Association and the document produced by Mr. Raymond Crotty on behalf of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association. These two major organisations are to be complimented on having produced these documents. The NFA document represents a major contribution to economic thinking. It is a study of the development potential of Irish agriculture.

Anyone who is concerned not merely with the development of Irish agriculture but also with the development of the Irish economy as a whole should not ignore this document. It is the result of considerable research and its findings and recommendations are based on logical reasoning and hard facts. Indeed, this NFA document, with its well reasoned, factually sound arguments and, in particular, its tone of optimism and confidence in the ability of Irish agriculture to play a major role in economic development, is in direct contrast to the dull, complacent, uninspiring, unimaginative document which has come to be known as the Blue Book. The NFA sets a target of four per cent per annum, a target which would maintain the present numbers on the land.

The other important document, that produced by Mr. Raymond Crotty, one of the leading agricultural economists in these islands, was produced at the request of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association. Mr. Crotty's study corroborates the NFA study except that he places the target slightly higher at five per cent. He argues that, unless this target of five per cent increase in agricultural output is achieved over the next five or six years, overall economic expansion will not reach the target expected in the Blue Book. I believe these two documents together form a perfect basis for planning. They should have been welcomed by the Taoiseach and the Government, at least as a basis for discussion on our economic policy. Instead of that, the Taoiseach has rejected both documents as wishful thinking.

The question of the role of agriculture in a developing economy is an interesting one. It is not merely one in which the farmers organisations are interested but which has been the subject of much study by economists throughout the world. I have here a report of a paper read to the Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland by Mr. E. A. Attwood who, I understand, is an economist with the Agricultural Institute. The paper, entitled Agriculture and Economic Growth in Western Ireland, was read to the Society on the 27th April, 1962. I quote from the introduction to this paper which is very relevant and significant to the present discussion:

In the development of the economy of the Western Counties of Ireland industrial expansion, in order to diversify employment opportunities, has been given considerable prominence and insufficient attention given to the need for agricultural development. The need for new industries is obvious, but the total numbers employed currently in industry is less than 12 per cent of those in agriculture; an increase in agricultural productivity is of critical importance if the level of national income produced in these counties is to be brought much closer in line with that of the rest of the country.

In the same issue of the Journal of the Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland there is a paper entitled A Dynamic Model of the Irish Economy, produced by Senator Professor P. M. Quinlan of University College, Cork. I do not intend to go into detail on this. I shall merely quote the conclusion:

In short, for the provision of increased employment and a rising standard of living, we need to maintain our present rate of expansion in Industry and to double our present rate in Agriculture.

That is not all. I have here a summarised report of the Eleventh International Conference of Agricultural Economists published in the Economic Journal, the quarterly journal of the Royal Economic Society for March, 1964. In this summary there are passages quoted which are most relevant to what I have been saying:

It can be shown algebraically that when agriculture is more than half the economy and produces much less per head than the non-agricultural sector, any growth that begins ... in the non-agricultural sector ... will not go far unless, and within a short time, there is a substantial rise in output per worker in agriculture.

The Taoiseach, speaking on the Budget last week, took a line which completely differed from that which has been taken by the various authorities I have quoted. I quote from column 1783, volume 208, of the Official Report of 15th April, 1964:

In programming a 2.7 per cent annual increase in agricultural output the Government were setting forth a view as to what was practicable and probable rather than what is desirable. There is no doubt that Irish agricultural potential would permit of a much more rapid rate of expansion, if market openings could be assured for the higher output.

Then, having realised, perhaps, the tone of gloom and pessisism which he had set, he said at column 1784:

There is no reason for pessimism regarding world needs for the kinds of foodstuffs that are produced in this country.

Why do we not encourage production instead of trying to put a barrier against it? Again in this report of the symposium to which I have referred, Mr. O'Reilly, in commiserating with the Local Development Association in Newcastlewest for the loss of its industry, said he was sorry to have to make the statement in view of the enterprise shown by the local association but it was decided the position could be reviewed by 1970 and that by then it was hoped to have doubled the intake.

I have no doubt that, taking into account the tremendous strides that have been made by Mr. O'Reilly and An Bord Bainne, looking at the tremendous break-through in the food processing field by the Irish Sugar Company, looking at the new markets for Irish foodstuffs which have been opened up abroad over the past year, the target of 2.7 per cent is ridiculous. I have the fullest confidence in the ability of our farmers to produce efficiently if they are given the proper encouragement and incentives. I have the greatest confidence in our food processing enterprise and in our marketing board.

I am convinced that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion will not succeed and that the most urgent need facing the Government at the moment is to create the economic climate which will make progress possible. Towards this end there is need for a reassessment of our aims and objectives. There is one instrument of economic and social progress which, so far, the Government have not been utilising to anything like its full potential. It is what has now come to be known in international terminology as community development. We have been hearing and reading quite a lot in recent times about community development but there are very few who yet seem to realise the significance of it. Certainly there is no indication that the Government intend to adopt this instrument of economic development. Community development has come to be recognised throughout the world as a major instrument of economic and social progress. It has been utilised most effectively by UNESCO and, in fact, many Governments now have special departments co-ordinating, stimulating and organising community effort towards economic and social progress.

Here in Ireland we know something about community development. In fact, there have been numerous examples of successful experiments having been carried out, particularly in the fields of local government, agriculture, industry and tourism. In fact, all the pioneering work in community development has been done by Muintir na Tíre. It is a matter of no little pride to us here in Ireland that this modern method of development, which is now being accepted throughout the world, was pioneered here a quarter of a century ago by the late Canon Hayes. Unfortunately, when one speaks of community development, whether it be here or down the country, one is accused of engaging in academic discussion. I should like to assure the House that I have no intention of engaging in academic discussion on this question. In fact, I am concerned with the practical application of this new method, this new modern concept, to the problems of this country.

Indeed, I can speak from personal experience in this field. I happen to be associated with a local agricultural development group in my own parish. This group has been in operation for the past three years and through the application of the principle of community development and co-operation it has succeeded in three years in increasing output by 43 per cent. That is an annual average of 14 per cent increase in output. The Taoiseach says 2.7 per cent is a realistic estimate.

I have seen how this method of community development can be successfully applied in the matter of promoting group water schemes. In fact, I think the Government must have learned a lesson in regard to these schemes, because I am sure that if it were not for the fact that Muintir na Tíre forced the issue and went ahead with the organisation of these group schemes, the colossal, costly regional schemes which had been planned three years ago would have gone ahead and would have cost a good deal more. I am sure the Government must have been aware of the way in which the principle of community development can be applied to the promotion of tourism and to the promotion of local industry. All this has been going on, I admit, but what I am perturbed about is the colossal wastage of effort and the lack of co-operation between the Government and the voluntary organisations, local development associations, and so on.

I want to go back again to the report of the symposium to which I have already referred, which was summarised in the Limerick Leader, on Saturday, 18th April, 1964. The Secretary of the Newcastlewest Development Association, referring to the loss of the industry to which I have already adverted, said that the Association had spent fifteen months negotiating for this industry, that, in fact, it had sent a representative to Germany. Mr. O'Dwyer said that this Association would have been saved a lot of time, effort and expense if they had been told of the position when they started their campaign about fifteen months ago. There should be more intercommunication between semi-State bodies and local voluntary organisations.

The Taoiseach referred to this community development idea. In fact, I think he attended a seminar at Gormanston College last year. A very detailed report of that seminar has been produced. It is interesting to note from that study that all the experts who came here and examined our economic and social problems are agreed that community development cannot be overlooked and must be utilised if we are to progress in this country. We have good experience of applying this method of community development to the promotion of industry, the organisation of agriculture and the promotion of local initiative in tourism, and in the matter of the provision of rural water supplies. We have considerable experience of it and all that is necessary now is for the Government to adopt this method as official policy.

I believe if the Government could harness this vast reservoir of local initiative, local enterprise and goodwill we could achieve a rate of progress which has never before been envisaged and which many people think now would be impossible. If any Deputy wishes to examine the possibilities of the method of economic development known as community development, there is a very comprehensive report in the current issue of Administration. It consists of a number of articles by various experts. I should like to quote one particular paragraph, which is very relevant. It is an article entitled “Local Government and Community Development,” paragraph 2. The writer here quotes from the United Nations Report, Concepts and Principles of Community Development:

The term "community development" has come into international usage to connote the processes by which the efforts of the people themselves are united with those of governmental authorities:

1. to improve the economic, social and cultural conditions of the communities;

2. to integrate these communities into the life of the nation; and

3. to enable them to contribute fully to national progress.

As I said, I felt compelled to deal with this particular subject. I feel it is very relevant to the Budget debate where we discuss the general question of economic development. From my own experience I am really sold on this idea. I believe the Government have given it some thought judging by the statement of the Taoiseach at Gormanston, but I feel now that we are embarking on a Second Programme for Economic Expansion this is the time to get down to an examination of how the methods of community development, which have been so successfully applied in other countries, can best be applied here on an organised approach.

I shall summarise what I have been saying here about economic development. I believe we need, first of all, a realistic and enlightened Government economic policy. We have not had that up to now and there is no indication in the Blue Book that we will have it over the next six years. Secondly, we need a comprehensive development programme embracing agriculture, industry and tourism. We have had programmes in the past but programming is not enough. We need rational planning to give effect to these programmes. Yesterday, my colleague, Deputy Declan Costello, adverted to the important factor of planning as opposed to mere programming.

Finally, and perhaps most important of all, we need dynamic leadership from the Government, leadership which will stimulate and encourage local initiative to make the best use of all our resources.

I suppose it is many years now since the debate on a Budget introduced in this House faced its conclusion so quickly. In the past, Budgets were debated into the long hot days of June and early July. If you like, it is a change for the better that the speeches and discussions are not now as long drawn out.

One of the most disappointing features of the debate to me is the absolute and complete lack of criticism in any form from the Opposition side of the House. Every student of politics knows that to administer the science of government effectively, not only do we want an active Government, but it is also essential to have an Opposition. They need not necessarily be engaged in destructive criticism, but should be ever watchful of the needs of the people they represent and devil's advocates closely watching the actions of the Government and their proposals. It is their duty to criticise; it is their duty to criticise constructively; and it is also their bounden duty to make counter-proposals when they strongly object to the proposals put forward by the Government of the day.

The Parliamentary Secretary sounds like a missioner giving a retreat.

In Ireland today an Opposition does not exist, with the exception, we might say, of some representatives in the Labour Party who at least throw a little light on matters here from time to time. I am addressing my remarks, in the main, to the Fine Gael Party. Never was their complete lack of unity of mind, unity of thought, unity of planning, unity of action and, above all, unity of policy, more apparent than it was yesterday. We read and digested, to the best of our ability, the pontifications of Deputy Dillon on the Budget, and yesterday we listened to a very interesting discourse by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Costello pére. They are two elder statesman and distinguished members of the House.

Deputy Dillon described the Budget as a gambler's Budget, reckless and indiscreet. Deputy Costello, a former Taoiseach, with years of experience as head of a Government, criticised us for being conservative in the extreme. To the ordinary student of politics there, in the main, is one of the defects of the main Opposition Party in this House—their inability to come together to try to achieve a united front so far as the discussions in this House are concerned.

It has been suggested that the annual Budget should not be in its present form but that it could be framed in such a way that it would cover perhaps two years. We know it is mentioned in section 39 of the OECD Report that there is need for a more flexible use of the Government's Budget as an instrument of demand management policy. Personally, I feel there could be re-thinking on the role which the Budget plays in the economic life of the country, and that there is a lot in the suggestion made from time to time that it should cover a longer period. With this new thinking on the Budget, I think the shortest period which it should cover would be a period of five years.

I do not necessarily mean that we should not have an annual review during that period, a type of balance sheet or annual report on the finances and the state of the country. That would be necessary even if a five year period were adopted. On the other hand, more conservative economists believe that the Budget in its present form is justified as it is so closely allied to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and that, in fact, by this process of evolution from the first and second programmes, the Budget as we have known it in the past does not play as prominent a role as was its wont.

Naturally in this Budget it was, is, and will continue to be, the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party, when we can do so, to increase the social welfare payments to the less well-off members of the community. Unfortunately, on this occasion, while 2/6d. per week costs a great deal of money, I personally am disappointed that a greater sum could not be afforded. It will be our endeavour in the future not only to continue giving increases but, if possible, to make them substantially more. I do not think any section of the community would quibble with that. With a buoyant economy, and with a rising standard of living, we have a grave responsibility to make these figures realistic.

No one can say that the present social welfare payments are what everyone in this House, and outside it, would like them to be. That is one of the tasks which we must approach and tackle vigorously. In that connection I personally would not have regretted if, say, another 3d had been put on cigarettes if, as a result we gave increased payments to the old age pensioners, the widows and other social welfare beneficiaries. Were I in a position to do so, I should certainly have advocated a minimum of 6d. From the point of view of tourism and the economic aspect, the price of 20 cigarettes in England at the present time is 4/10d for 20 while our price for the ordinary cigarette is now 4/-for a packet of 20. I thought it could have borne more. When the standard of living of the ordinary, fair-minded man in the street goes up, and when he benefits, he then appreciates that there is a responsibility on him to make a sacrifice to the other sections of the community who are not in as good a position as he finds himself. I think the inhabitants of the State appreciate that now and it is along that line that we should go in the future.

Of course, criticism was made by members of the Fine Gael Party that the Budget did not balance without increased taxation. Perhaps when Deputy T. F. O'Higgins follows me he will bear this in mind. Did we not give the increase in social welfare payments? Did we not give the 2d per gallon to the creamery milk supplier? Did we not give alleviation in respect of the agricultural land rates demand?

It is quite correct to say, then, that the Budget would balance without any increased taxation but that, as has been pointed out by the Minister for Finance, was not the policy of the Government. It is interesting to know, too—and they are not my figures; they are not my statements—that we have the lowest taxation in the world with our standard of living—I am uncontradicted—and we have the lowest taxation in western Europe.

And the lowest social services.

To the prophets of gloom I would say that it is as well to appreciate our tax structure and the percentage of the gross national product of our taxation system when we are contemplating joining the EEC in 1969 or 1970. The figure of taxation would be 20 per cent of the national income.

Of the gross national product.

The gross national product.

Why do you boys not try to get together——

——and be all of one mind.

Even the Central Statistics Office now is wrong.

That is not——

Check with the Tánaiste.

I corrected Deputy M. J. O'Higgins yesterday. I hope I do not have to correct Deputy T. F. O'Higgins this afternoon.

The Parliamentary Secretary would be out of order if he did.

I have no intention of going into long quotations but I should like to remind those who need reminding of what I can only call the hell of a cheek the Fine Gael Party have, through their financial wizard, Deputy Sweetman, in criticising the present Government and particularly the present Minister for Finance, An Dochtúir Séamus Ó Riain. Let us cast our minds back not to any ordinary speech made in those days but to the statement made by the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, in 1956, when he introduced his Budget. Perhaps Deputy T. F. O'Higgins and Deputy A. Barry would dwell on the few extracts which I shall read as they make most interesting reading.

The speakers in the Fine Gael benches have waxed eloquent on this tax on petrol. Having spoken about the effect it will have on industry and what this 3d. per gallon will mean as a further burden on the cost of living and industry generally it is interesting to compare what Deputy Sweetman, the then Minister for Finance, said in his Budget statement on 8th May, 1956, as reported at column 37 of Volume 157 of the Official Report:

Consumption of petrol has been rising steadily over the years and reached the figure of 84,750,000 gallons for the year 1955-56 compared with 80,380,000 gallons in 1954-55 and 76,730,000 gallons in 1953-54. The duty was raised by 5d. in 1948, by 2d. in 1951 and by 5½d. in 1952. These increases seem to have in no way hindered the increasing use of motor transport and it will be conceded that much of that use is for less essential purposes. I propose to raise the customs duty from 1/9½d. to 2/3¼d. a gallon, that is, by 5¾d. a gallon, with a complementary increase in the excise duty. This will probably mean an increase of 6d. a gallon in the price of standard petrol.

Deputy Sweetman has certainly changed his tune since then. At that time, these increases would not hinder the increasing use of motor transport and it will be conceded that much of that use is for less essential purposes now. Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Dillon, the Leader of Fine Gael, and all the other speakers have waxed eloquent on the subject during the course of this debate but that is not cutting any ice.

The extraordinary thing, too, is that in the last line of his statement, under the heading PETROL, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, said:

The cost of this concession will be £20,000 this year leaving the net additional yield at £1,330,000.

In other words, for 6d on the gallon he would get £1,330,000 and yet, from 3d on the gallon, the present Minister for Finance estimates a yield from this tax of £1¼ million, if I am not mistaken, which is very interesting. I was going to quote what Deputy Sweetman said on the petrol tax this year but we know from memory what he said. He castigated the Government for the increase. As the House is aware, we have increased the packet of cigarettes by 3d. Again, Deputy Sweetman's castigations were interesting. Introducing his Budget in 1956 he said:

Allowing a margin for the trade, this will have the effect of increasing the retail price of the 20 standard cigarettes by 5d. The increased duty adds about 6d to the selling price of an ounce of pipe tobacco ...

In the same Budget the same Deputy Sweetman increased, in his wisdom, the price of the box of matches to 2d.

One of the most interesting observations of Deputy Sweetman was when he stated the following on 14th of this month in relation to the Minister for Finance:

He came to the House at a time when, as he said himself, there was a substantial danger of inflation, having himself for the third successive year brought the year to a close with a Budget deficit, a Budget deficit which arises this year, as it arose last year, and the year before, not because of a shortfall in revenue but because of increased expenditure and because the Minister for Finance failed to exercise the control that it is his duty to exercise. If, therefore, there is any danger in the inflationary position today it is a danger that arises solely because of the action the Minister himself initiated last year ...

We have also been criticised for our failure to do sufficient for education. Looking at the figures, it will be appreciated that this year the House will be asked to vote the highest expenditure, on education in the history of the State. It is possible that a higher sum could have been devoted to this expenditure, but a large amount of capital expenditure takes quite a while to plan.

Deputy Corish in his brief Budget statement, said that the Estimates should be pruned and gone through more accurately by the various Departments. I can assure Deputy Corish— and I am sure he knows it from his own experience as a Minister in the Coalition administration—that when a Minister or Parliamentary Secretary can get away with any expenditure from the conscientious officials of the Department of Finance—over-conscientious, I think, at times—he is doing a good day's work. Every item has to be justified and substantiated. Queries are put and answered. Substantial cuts are made by these officials in the interest of economy and sound administration. When a figure finally appears in the Estimate, you can rest assured it is more than justified.

Deputy Corish, when he speaks later today, might clear up one point that caused me some anxiety. He seemed to be worried about the increases in the Post Office costs.

I have not opened my mouth about that at all. I never said a word.

Do not put him off his stroke.

Can you not say you did say it and let him get on with it.

That is the typical Fine Gael attitude—not peace by ordeal but peace at any cost. I want to ascertain from Deputy Corish on behalf of his Party if——

He said something he did not say?

——he agrees with these increases. In the main, the increases are designed to put us in a position to pay the increased wages and salaries to Post Office workers.

There was a deal of criticism by Fine Gael speakers on our external assets. It must be appreciated that external assets can only be used to pay for some tangible asset coming into the country. We must always hold a certain amount to cover abnormal imports at any particular time. I think it is agreed that the present limit is not too high and there is no cause for concern. Mention was made of our close ties with Britain and the Bank of England. It should be appreciated that we in Ireland, like many other countries, are members of the sterling group. That means that sterling is the basis of exchange with other groups and, of course, our £ is exchangeable for, among others, the British £. But it must be remembered we are only a strong member of this group as long as we have the external assets, because they ensure our £ is negotiable for the other £s. in the sterling group.

We get these ultra-republicans telling us to cut the tie with England's economy and sterling system. The other members of the sterling group are: Britain, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Ghana, Cyprus, Nigeria, Kuwait, Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, Kenya, India, Pakistan, Ceylon, Burma, Jordan, Libya, Iceland, Malaysia, Sierra Leone, Tanganyika, Uganda, Western Samoa, Zanzibar——

What is this about?

I was trying to clear up some of the cloudy statements by some of the Fine Gael speakers as Deputy Barry will see if he looks up recent Dáil debates.

This tendency to give lectures for primary school children is catching on.

Let us come back to the question of the "niggardly amount" of social welfare payments.

Thanks for reminding me. I nearly forgot that.

I shall remind the Deputy of a few other points before I sit down. The Minister said in his Budget Statement that the 2/6 was not sufficient nor what he would wish to give. The Taoiseach subsequently reminded the House that even though it was only an increase of 2/6 a week, in the period when Deputy O'Higgins played such a vital role in the last Coalition Government, they were able to afford only one miserly 2/6d. in their whole period of office and that was payable only to old age pensioners. Those in receipt of unemployment assistance, orphans' pensions and children's allowances got nothing. Does the Deputy agree with that?

As the Deputy thanked me for reminding him, I should like to remind him also—no doubt he will be speaking of this shortly—that before the 1957 Budget, to take a typical example, a man with a wife and four children on unemployment assistance had 48/7d. a week in urban areas and 38/7d. in rural areas. An unemployed person on stamps at the time got 71/7d. After the 1963 Budget, in urban areas a man in similar circumstances got 95/7d. and in rural areas, 87/7d. His unemployment benefit was 132/7d. Fine Gael have put the case that the value of the £ has gone down and point out the cost of living now compared with when the 1956 Budget was introduced. All social services from 1956-57 show an increase of 69.2 per cent in the financial year 1964-65, notwithstanding the fact that the actual net increase in the cost of living was 16.8 per cent. Those are figures on which Deputy O'Higgins and members of Fine Gael should dwell. Not only have we increased social service benefits to keep in line with the cost of living since 1956-57 but we have increased all social welfare expenditure by 69.2 per cent.

Criticism has been levelled against the extra tax on petrol, not only because of the burden on industry but also because it is suggested it will be a deterrent to the tourist trade. There are a number of countries where petrol is far dearer than in Ireland. In France, premium petrol costs 7/7d. a gallon and they have wiped out the vouchers which they used issue to tourists. In Spain, it costs 5/11d.; in West Germany, 5/8; in Belgium, 5/10d. and in Portugal, 5/10d. In Britain, it is 4/10½d. still but it must be borne in mind that there is a very high purchase price there on new vehicles which more than counteracts the petrol cost.

It is also 4/10½d in Ireland.

Premium petrol?

That more or less enhances my argument. Where then is the great criticism?

Many tourists will be tempted to go to the Northern part of Ireland rather than to the south, by-passing the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's county.

That is a very weak argument and indicative of the general tone of Fine Gael on this occasion. Last year I pointed out that one of the reasons for the turnover tax was that the main tax items, beer, tobacco and spirits, would no longer bear a further increase. Actually, what was said was that we could no longer rely on these commodities for the very substantial revenue required. I find it very difficult to follow the arguments of Fine Gael and, to some extent, those of the Labour Party. When they opposed the turnover tax, they did not give us any alternative suggestions. It was maintained by them that this was the job of the Government but they did not agree that we should extend taxation on the ordinary taxable items up to then.

Having criticised the increased taxation they want more for health, for education and for the pensioners. The question everyone in the country is asking, even those with no firm political allegiance of any kind is: how do Fine Gael think the people are such fools that they can be "codded" into thinking you can get increased educational facilities, build more schools and more houses and get higher social benefits without increased taxation? Perhaps Deputy O'Higgins would let us know—or Deputy A. Barry—how these things can be done. It is easy to say that half-a-crown is a miserable pittance to give old age pensioners——

Did the Parliamentary Secretary ever say that from these benches?

I shall tell the Deputy what I said and what I say now, that I am, and the majority of my Party are, convinced that the social welfare benefits in Ireland are very far removed from what they should be and what we would wish them to be.

Say that to the man beside you.

The man beside me, as the Deputy describes him, is quite well aware of that. He is also well aware of the ranting, raving and screaming that would be indulged in by the Fine Gael Party if there were further taxation. They want the best of two worlds. They are only fooling themselves. They might fool themselves but they will not fool the ordinary man in the street. Nowadays he is reasonable, politically mature and in the main, educated, and he has the capacity of the Irishman for seeing through false arguments. If Fine Gael want to get anywhere, they will have to stop this bluffing and get down to hard facts. When they do criticise, let them come with some alternative or else let them keep quiet about it.

As a T. D. for my own city and county of Limerick, I suppose I would be entitled to make a few general observations. I have been approached by people who not alone did not get the ninth round wage increase but some of whom did not get the seventh or eighth round. It is as well that these people should know what the position is. Subject to correction, I feel that a very serious position obtains in Ireland whereby responsible employers—the State among others, are responsible employers—are carrying out the agreement between the Federation of Employers and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and have been followed by the Government and local authorities in regard to the 12 per cent increase. It is alarming to think that there are thousands of people in employment who have not benefited not alone from the increase this year but from the previous increases. The city of Cork, I know from my sojourn there, for the by-election, was not above reproach.

The only advice I could give to these people is that it is one reason above all others why they should be organised in a trade union. Looking at it from a commercial point, is it not all wrong to think that hotel owners, factory owners or shop owners should be able to get the same service from their workers while charging their customers higher prices when in fact they are paying a miserable pittance to some of their employees?

Do you realise you were pointing at me when you mentioned shopkeepers?

If all employers were held in as high esteem as Deputy Barry is in Cork, I should be quite happy.

Then do not point at me.

There was no personal reflection meant and I am sorry that Deputy Barry should think otherwise. I have a very high regard for him. That is the position that exists today. I do not know what can be done about it.

A lot of it is up to themselves, as you say.

A lot of it is.

Nearly all of it.

Every one has the right to join a trade union if he should so wish and it is completely unconstitutional for any employer of standing to attempt to dismiss from his service an individual who attempts to join a trade union——

Good man.

——and it is certainly worthy of some action being taken against such an individual.

I was glad that my colleague Deputy O'Donnell referred to the increase of 2d. a gallon paid to the dairy farmers. We are both from a constituency in which the farming community depend, in the main, on their income from milk. They are all very pleased with the increase and I suppose, like a good trade union, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers feel it should have been a little higher. As long as this Government stay in power and as long as the Second Programme for Economic Expansion continues, as there is every indication it will, we will look after the dairy farmers as we have done in the past.

That is a terrible threat.

Does Deputy Barry realise that he is on very thin ice when he interrupts anyone from Fianna Fáil who is talking about dairy farmers?

We remember when you marched them up to Dublin and back again and then taxed them. They were to get 4d a gallon and all they got was a tax and a cut.

That is what is wrong with Fine Gael: they are always remembering; they never forget.

You did a bit of remembering yourself.

They go back to 1914 and then up along to 1921, 1924 and so on, and to 1932——

Please God, we will do it again.

No wonder we cannot write history.

You can write it all right.

For the record, I should like to correct a statement made by Deputy Dillon. The net increase since Bord Bainne first put the increase of 1d. on the levy in May 1962 was two and five-eighth pence. It is well to get that point clarified.

The attitude of the Government with regard to investment of foreign capital has been made clear time and time again. We welcome with open arms the provision of foreign capital as long as it is used in the main to develop the export industry. Of course it has the advantage also of attracting people who have foreign know-how and techniques and particularly foreign markets through their worldwide contacts and associations.

I want to refer now to the different climate which obtains in the financial year 1964-65 compared with the last inept year of the Coalition Government. At that time Ireland generally was at its lowest ebb, economically and socially. Many people had thrown in the sponge. Emigration rates were unprecedented and when we took over in the dying days of January 1957, the unemployment figure was 100,000. National loans had failed to fill; the Government of the day were unable to meet their commitments and the local authorities were unable to carry on the housing programme. Employment, not only in agriculture, but also in industry, was falling. Outside investment in Ireland was negligible. Our standing among the nations of the world as an area which offered attractions was not very bright. Since then, it must be admitted, irrespective of one's political affiliations, Ireland has made tremendous strides. It must be admitted, on the figures I have given today, that even with the increase in the cost of living of only 16.8 per cent since 1957, the tremendous increase in social services, the real increases in money value to those in employment are very substantial indeed.

There is a new air of confidence in the country. There is no point in trying to state otherwise. My only criticism would be that I should like to see much quicker progress in certain respects than is the case. That is the feeling generally of all of us in the Fianna Fáil Party. There are social problems, such as the eradication of unsuitable school buildings, these hovels which go under the name of schools. There are some thousands of schools in the country today which have not water or sanitary facilities. I do admit that we are spending on school buildings and alterations over £3.4 million this year, which is the highest capital sum spent for that purpose in the history of the State, even allowing for increased costs of building. We appreciate that we must not become complacent, that we must do all in our power to wipe out in as short a period as possible this appalling problem.

In regard to housing, the figures are given from time to time. We are spending on housing construction £5 million more than was spent in 1956/ 57, even allowing again for increased costs.

I have already pointed out that for our standard of living our taxation is the lowest in the world, that our system of taxation is the lowest in western Europe and that the climate is right for further development. One of the most encouraging things in Ireland to-day is the appreciation on the part of the young people that a Government can only guide and indicate, that the State steps in only where private enterprise fails. Of course, we will not hesitate to use direct State intervention where it is found to be necessary but it is most encouraging that the young people, the future tradesmen, business and professional people, are coming together in committees and discussion groups, studying how they can make their country, their city or their town a better place to live in and a more prosperous place for them and their children.

It is gratifying also to see so many coming back from abroad, so many who have qualified in specialised trades and professions, coming back to place their services at the disposal of the expanding nation. It is now realised all over the world that Ireland holds an honoured place not only for her attitude in the United Nations but generally for the manner in which we have tackled our economic problems.

In regard to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, as the Minister has pointed out, all the various statistics, reports and critical examinations are now concluding and are being analysed and the findings, as the Government see them, will be published shortly and should be a further basis for an economic upsurge.

My colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, criticised us for being too conservative as far as the anticipated output in agriculture is concerned. Were we to be unduly optimistic we would be worthy of censure but we are reasonably sure that the targets set are the targets which can be obtained.

I would appeal to the members of the opposition to discontinue the boring, tedious speeches such as they have been making down the years on every Budget which has been brought in by this Party. Let them appreciate that there is a new outlook and a new mentality in Ireland. The voter who, in the long run, decides whether we sit here or not, is far more mature and the ordinary man in the street is far better educated and circumspect about matters political than some of us might imagine. The day has arrived when a very high percentage in this Dáil recognise that what is required is constructive criticism and an appreciation that we are living in an Ireland that has a tremendous future. The cooperation of all sections of the community is required, and constructive criticism by all sections in the House. If that is forthcoming, I have no doubt that we will succeed in the tremendous task which lies ahead.

Finally, I would address a remark to Deputy Corish in particular. I do think that he should reconsider his attitude to the removal, to a certain extent, of tariffs being carried out by the Government. He has these natural fears in regard to unemployment. We all have, I suppose, but perhaps some of us have made a more detailed and minute examination as to what the actual results will be. It is a far-sighted, wise decision, to remove tariffs to a certain extent because there are industries in Ireland today and the only way in which they will be jolted out of their complacency, the only way in which they will be compelled to get rid of their archaic, antediluvian and Victorian machinery and methods, particularly of management, is to get a little taste of competition. If we are to join the European Economic Community, and even if we never joined it, we have reached the era of world trade, now——

My concern is that it may be done too quickly—that the exercise is a bit sharp.

To deal with some of the industries concerned, we must act quickly and give them a jolt which will make them appreciate that the 70's. are not very far away. By doing that, the Government are in fact doing a tremendous service for the workers; they are showing that they are looking after the interests of the workers in the long term. Adaptation grants and other financial facilities provided by the Industrial Credit Company, An Foras Tionscal and other bodies are going a long way.

In case I should forget it later, by way of interjection earlier, I indicated my concern about the reduction of tariffs. As I said, we are proceeding as if we shall be members of the EEC by 1970. It is to deal with the period in the meantime that the ten per cent has been fixed. I am not certain, and neither, I feel sure is the Parliamentary Secretary, that we shall get into the EEC. The Parliamentary Secretary surely remembers that three years ago every speech made here was interspersed with references to the Common Market, how it would affect us militarily and economically, how it would affect the erection of even a pigsty, how it would affect social welfare and all these things. The Taoiseach made a speech lasting more than an hour last week and not once did he mention the EEC. We have not heard a word about it in recent times.

How do we know we shall get into Heaven?

Is the Parliamentary Secretary making a comparison between the two?

I do not like the analogy. I should like to bet, though, that the Parliamentary Secretary will get into Heaven. He is more certain of that than of getting into the EEC. The fact is that enthusiasm for the Common Market, interest in it and information about it, have waned in recent years. Everybody must by now be aware of the Labour Party's attitude to the Common Market. We have not been as enthusiastic as Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael and we have given our reasons.

I agree with the Parliamentary Secretary when he says he does not think so many of our industries should have been protected for such a long time. The protection was introduced 30 years ago, the idea being that it would last for a time to help to get our industries on their feet. However, a number of them did not use the crutches or the splints given to them at that time.

The Taoiseach opened this debate on behalf of his Party by describing the speeches made by members of this side as boring. That may be the point of view of the Taoiseach. Our point of view is that the speeches made from these benches give expression to our attitude to the Budget. Our point of view is that it is important we should give expression to that attitude. What I found disturbing in the Taoiseach's statement then was this passage, reported at column 1766 of the Official Report for 15th April last:

However, I suppose we have to go through the motions of debating it, but it is clear that, so far as the Government are concerned, we have not got any great problem on our hands.

That is more disturbing than the reference to the boring speeches. His attitude was worse than he suggested the attitude of the two previous speakers was. He supposed, he said, we have to go through the motions of debating it. Have we come to the pass where the most important debate of the year is to be dealt with, according to the Taoiseach, by going through the machinery of debating the Budget?

That is also indicative of the attitude of the Parliamentary Secretary. I must admit he made a reasonable speech: he did not go back too far; he was not abusive; and he did not make the unfair comparisons usually made. I thought he was reasonable in parts of his speech. He expressed dissatisfaction in respect of some things, but he is only kidding himself if he thinks we are making great strides. There have been advances in industrial employment and the monetary value of social welfare benefits has risen.

It is true the Government have at last accepted the policy of the Labour Party in the matter of planning the economy. We were laughed at and jibed when we advocated that we should have a planned economy. The Conservatives in Britain adopted the British Labour Party's planned economy and it is now gratifying to know that the Fianna Fáil Party show, without expressing it in any way, that they also believed in planning.

Do not let anybody think that as far as private enterprise is concerned the Labour Party feel there should not be dependence on it. I believe the economy can grow even if we are absolutely dependent on private enterprise. We agree, however, with the sentiments of the Parliamentary Secretary that when private enterprise is unable or unwilling to do the job, the State should step in. We have been saying that for years and for our pains have been described by the Tánaiste and others as some sort of political animals.

It is good that the Conservatives in England have been won over to some sort of economic planning and that the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues have similarly been won over to more planning, which need not constitute interference with private enterprise. Fianna Fáil have been very reluctant to take their share of credit during their period of office for what they have done in the matter of planning, certainly in the matter of the establishment of State industries. I do not know who started it. The Cumann na nGaedheal Party can take credit, I suppose, for the establishment of the Sugar Company and the ESB. We have all participated.

What we must be most concerned about is the provision of more employment and the possibility that the Government will take more effective interest in fuller employment by trying to improve the economy. The Taoiseach said they had no problems in so far as the current Budget is concerned—it could have been easily balanced, he said, if it were not for the agricultural and social welfare sectors. That may serve to please the economists but it does not fulfil the functions of a Budget.

The Taoiseach spoke about social justice. If we are not to become smug in our complacency, we must decide what the problems are and, in the Budget, try to correct them. Merely to single out a section of the community and say we shall give them a few million pounds, is balancing the Budget all right. That system is not peculiar to this Budget: it is a pattern we have had over the past 15, 20 or 30 years. We are not afraid of taxation; we are not afraid of expenditure of money on capital projects, of investment of money in projects we know will do the country good; but as far as the current Budget is concerned, what we should be thinking about is from whom the taxes are levied and how the money will be spent.

It is quite true, as the Parliamentary Secretary says, that national taxation as a percentage of national income, or even as a percentage of gross national product, is not alarmingly high when one compares it with the figures for the various countries in Western Europe. It is not so dangerously high as some may think it is. What we are concerned about, however, is the incidence of the two types of taxation, direct and indirect.

Let us say that the percentage of national taxation as a percentage of national income is about 25 per cent; of that 25 per cent, 70 per cent is indirect taxation and 30 per cent direct taxation. At least, they were the figures last year, or the year before, and I do not think they have changed substantially in the meantime, except that there is a greater concentration still on increasing the burden of indirect taxation. Now, when we advocated that the burden of direct taxation should be greater than the burden of indirect taxation, we were told by the Taoiseach that there is not a great deal of wealth in this country; we have no millionaires or big industrial concerns whom we could mulct to the extent that that 30 per cent could be changed to any considerable degree.

We all admit we have no Americantype millionaires or British-type industries from whom or from which we could draw moneys by way of tax, but the Minister accepted last year the suggestion made by the Labour Party in October, 1951, and embodied in the election programme published that year—I do not know whether or not the Minister saw it—that he should get after those who, over the years, had been evading the payment of income tax. That is part of our policy, and not just last year, or the year before, but for years back. The Minister got a fair amount of money out of that and, last year, by our votes and in our speeches we supported him, as we did in the other measures he took in order to get money from a particular source.

Last year the Minister inferred—I do not pretend to quote his exact words—that drink and tobacco were out; the inference was that the best horse for us to back as far as taxation was concerned was the turnover tax. As far as the obtaining of revenue is concerned, that has been a pretty successful tax. The Minister's estimate last year was not exceeded by very much, perhaps £250,000. He estimated that in a full year he would get £10½ millions. This year he expects to get £14 millions. Now, last year, as I have said, he inferred that drink and tobacco were out as far as the raising of revenue was concerned for certain reasons. He inferred—he will correct me if I am wrong—that taxation on these commodities had more or less reached saturation point. The Parliamentary Secretary said today that in fact they have but, with the buoyancy in the economy and so on, it was still possible to get something out of them. The something this year is £5 million, a pretty substantial amount of money: £5 million would give many halfcrowns to old age pensioners, to widows and orphans, and so on. Of course, last year we were being sold the idea of the turnover tax. The tax was being justified to us. As far as tobacco is concerned, the figures last year, or the year before, or the year before that again, did not show that tobacco had reached saturation point.

The Minister last year introduced certain measures which brought him in a certain amount of money, measures designed to ensure people would not evade income tax, putting a tax on rents and increasing corporation profits tax. Has he ever thought about a capital gains tax? I do not know what money he would get from it. I have not the intimate knowledge the Minister has, with the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance behind him. Surely it is time we thought about this tax? The Conservative Government in Britain operate a capital gains tax. If it will get something, then I think it is justified, and even more justified when we remember some of the methods by which money is obtained, legitimately obtained in this country.

If a man makes £2,000 gambling, so to speak, or by investing on the Stock Exchange, that is income for him. If a man works on a building scheme, or is employed in an office, and if he earns £2,000 over a period, he must pay tax on that. Surely it would be logical to tax the man who makes £2,000 by speculating in property over a short period or on the Stock Exchange? That is income; that is money. He can buy things with it. He can buy clothes. He can buy food. He can buy all sorts of things. That is his way of life. That is how he makes his money. The builders' labourer who makes his money by working is subject to income tax. With the money he earns, he must buy clothes and food. Nevertheless, that money is taxed. The Minister ought to examine this matter. Perhaps he has given some consideration to it.

Accepting that there are no millionaires in this country, there is a certain amount of money being used and circulated by the people who are not paying one penny tax on it. That is why we are concerned about the method of taxation. We cannot reconcile that situation with a tax on foodstuffs. The Government made a fatal blunder, in my opinion, in taxing foodstuffs. We had an objection to the form of the tax, but we said very definitely last year that, so far as a tax on certain commodities was concerned—call it a turnover tax, a purchase tax, or anything else—where the money was required for a good purpose, we would have no objection. We are, however, entitled to revolt, as we did in anticipation of what was coming in the Budget last year. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands assured people it was impossible even to think that anybody would tax food. He may be a bit indiscreet—he has been only three or four years, I think, in the Dáil—but he certainly indicated that he and his supporters in Roscommon would be revolted by the idea of anybody taxing food.

It is a shocking thing that on the very commodities people need to keep alive—they do not need luxuries—they must pay tax. The Minister said last year that, if he did not tax food, taxing other items would mean something like 2/- in the £. I do not think people would object to a tax on quite a number of commodities in order to bring in the same amount of revenue, provided food and the other necessaries were allowed to go free.

I do not want to labour again the great problems created by the introduction of the turnover tax, particularly in the matter of prices. The trade unions played their part very well. They showed themselves a responsible organisation, both in the manner in which they discussed and in the manner in which they negotiated the recent wage increase which gave their members, at least, a 12 per cent increase. I do not want to appear to be agitating, but trade unionists generally must be concerned if their 12 per cent is to be wiped out. They are fighting for a certain standard of living, a standard that has been improved in recent years, and they would be fools if they allowed anybody to diminish that standard in any degree. They have made a bargain with employers that this national agreement will obtain for two years. It is only reasonable for them to expect that there will be stability in other directions, particularly stability in prices.

To the economists and many politicians, including many members of this House, the control of prices is anathema. We should not be afraid of the control of prices as such. We are told by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that by dint of competition prices will come down. Maybe it is too early but we certainly have not seen any evidence of that as yet. In respect of many commodities— dare I say the majority of commodities?—while there is no fixed agreement whereby commodities are sold at fixed prices, there is some sort of unwritten law, some sort of mysticism, which results in the prices of various commodities all over town or country being the same.

There is a perfect example of that in the sale of petrol. I know it was investigated by the Fair Trade Commission but it is still a mystery to me and to many other people that prices in the petrol trade are exactly the same in five or six companies that are supposed to be in such competition, especially in the matter of advertising and things like that.

The Government should concern themselves with prices. They interested themselves—I suppose, as a gesture— in the matter of the price of sugar. They had some control over the Sugar Company and it was all right for them to say to the Sugar Company: "Hold your price increase until we examine it." Why could they not do it with manufacturers and other people who, they believe, were raising prices, for instance, the flourmillers? The Minister for Industry and Commerce had the price of sugar investigated and it was decided there would be a reduction in the proposed increase. If a reputable—I use the word deliberately —and efficient body like the Irish Sugar Company can, after an investigation, be told they will not be permitted the full increase they proposed, is it not possible, to say the least of it, that many other organisations, manufacturers and distributors would be having a try-on in regard to proposed increases?

The Government need not be afraid of the investigation of prices. I am sure they are not. One of their basic principles is that in certain circumstances prices should be investigated. It was this Government who brought in the Prices Act of 1958. It was this Government who established, by way of legislation, these prices advisory tribunals. As far as I know from the public, there is certainly now a case for the establishment of many of these prices tribunals to see whether or not there are unusual and unfair increases in the price of many commodities, increases which are blamed on wage increases, turnover tax and for which many other excuses are made in order to justify them.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance talked about the Government's record in social welfare. As I said at the outset, it is true as regards the old age pension it was 22/- at one time; then it went to 25/-, to 27/6 and now it is 37/6. We shall never get to the end of the argument if the Parliamentary Secretary says: "You gave only 2/6 in 1956." They are the facts. When I was Minister for Social Welfare, the old age pensioners got 2/6. The Minister can say: "You want me to give more than you gave in 1956." This is 1964 and what I am concerned about is whether the nation is doing justice to these people in accordance with the resources of the nation. That is the important thing.

I want to repeat the figures particularly for the Parliamentary Secretary who said he was not entirely satisfied with what was done. I am sure no member of the Government is. Out of tax revenue in the year 1957-58, only 24.8 per cent was devoted to social welfare. In 1963-64, the figure fell to 20 per cent. This year, as far as I can make out, it will be 19.1 per cent. I could go back to 1956 and say we had the food subsidies and that the £ was worth more then. We could say a lot of things like that but we would never get to the end of the argument. I have quoted figures like these this year, last year, the year before and possibly the year before that again but I have never got an adequate answer to that sort of argument.

The unemployment figures are substantially reduced.

Of course they are.

Between 1956 and now it is the same unemployment figure.

It is 30,000 now.

To continue my argument—the Minister and everybody else should have an opportunity of commenting if needs be—we were always told from the Fianna Fáil benches that if we could get more money, we could afford to give more to these people. As far as the unemployed are concerned, the bulk of those are on unemployment benefit; some of them, the smaller number, are on unemployment assistance. Taken all round, widows' and orphans' pensions, contributory and non-contributory, unemployment benefit, unemployment assistance, old age pensions—there is no substantial change in the bulk of those. As far as unemployment is concerned, the figures are now running somewhat higher than they were two years ago. There is no use in denying that in 1957 there were 94,000 unemployed—I forget the exact figure——

Fianna Fáil always put a round figure on it and call it 100,000. The kernel of my argument is that we are spending, as a percentage of tax revenue, less each year on these people. It annoys me when the Government, the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary talk about the great strides we have made, the buoyancy of the economy, the exports we have, all these statistics designed to indicate the prosperity of the country, while it all boils down to the one problem, 37/6d per week for the old age pensioner. We must consider whether or not this nation can afford to give them more.

I came across a woman last Saturday whose case I thought was fantastic but it is genuine. This woman has a contributory widow's pension of £2 2s 6d per week. She pays 13/9 rent. She has a net income of 29/- per week. The local authority will not give her any money; they say their finances are not geared to give it to her. The Government say it is the local authority's responsibility. The local authority say it is the Government's responsibility. But the net point is that this woman has 29/- per week on which to live. I want to assure the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is interested, that that is a genuine case, and there are many more like it in the country.

We will be told: "You refused to give these people the halfcrown because you voted against the tax on cigarettes, petrol and tobacco." We did because, as I said at the beginning of my speech, we are concerned about the method by which the money was raised and how it was spent. We do not believe that the taxation imposed in recent years, contributed by the hundreds of thousands in this country, was given in the proper direction. The turnover tax, which brings in £14 million a year, taxes the things these people have to buy and even taxes tobacco and drink, which some of these people buy. It amounts to a formidable sum and will amount this year to £19 million. Still we are giving the same halfcrown to the old age pensioner. I do not think we have any idea of values. A halfcrown in 1957 or 1958, or away back in 1949, was very different from the halfcrown given to-day.

The Minister for Social Welfare, because he was politically embarrassed at the time, accepted a motion in this House, tabled, I think, by Deputy Sherwin, and said, in effect, that every time there was an increase in wages by way of national agreement, social welfare recipients should benefit. He accepted that in principle but there is no evidence here in this Budget that the principle embodied in that motion has been accepted.

The Taoiseach talked about the capital Budget. I repeat that if money has to be raised, by way of loan or otherwise, in order to ensure that our agriculture will progress, to ensure that we will have houses and that industrial development will be carried on, it will get the full support of the Labour Party. The amount would appear to be formidable but, so long as it is a good investment, we are for it.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance referred to something I said on Budget day when I said I thought there should be an investigation with a view to pruning. I appreciate that every civil servant in the various Government Departments is conscious of the need of his Minister to have things pruned. After all, civil servants do not give political decisions and political decisions have been made over the past 40 years in relation to this or that particular scheme. I think there is no possibility of this without perpetuating schemes that were started as far back as 1923 or 1933 and which are no use either to those concerned or to the economy of the country, things which Deputies might by agreement decide to cut out because they are uneconomic. It is for that reason I suggested on the Vote on Account that a Committee of the Dáil might be set up, similar to the Committee of Public Accounts, to investigate capital expenditure in many of the Departments of State.

I am reluctant to talk at length on agriculture but it has always occurred to me, and I have stated in this House, that a lot of the money devoted to agriculture finds itself in the wrong hands. I do not think we need concern ourselves too much about the man who has a big holding and who is recognised in his own district as a well-off or successful farmer. We should be concerned about the small or modest type farmer. In relation to his value and in relation to his needs, I do not think he gets a fair share of the odd £40 million that will be put into agriculture this year.

We have not yet seen the bill providing for the relief of rates on agricultural land. It amounts to £1,400,000. Who is to get this? Will it be given in accordance with the valuation? I assume it will. That will mean that the big farmer who is represented by a big valuation will get the bulk of the money. But the man who is to be assisted is the man in the 20, 25, 30 or 60 acre class. I think, therefore, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government ought to try to see whether there are any means whereby the small farmer can be assisted in accordance with his needs. That obtains, in my opinion, right through the whole system.

That is how it is done. The Deputy knows that the small farmer gets more than one-half the benefit.

I have not yet seen the Bill.

That is the procedure.

If the Minister is sure of that, it is all right.

I can only say what is being done now. That is the procedure so far.

Does the Minister suggest there may be a change in the new Bill?

We have not discussed it yet.

That is my attitude to the general system of grants in respect of the agricultural industry. It may not apply particularly to the relief of rates on agricultural land but it appears that those who need most assistance in agriculture do not get it.

I do not think that in many parts of the country we can be proud of the housing progress. I notices today the Minister for Local Government, through the columns of the Irish Press, has announced some new plans for housing. Everybody will wish him well if it is successful, once and for all, in clearing up the appalling position we have, particularly in many of our provincial towns. We still seem to maintain a backlog of housing needs year after year, and that in 1964 is certainly not good enough.

There is a big scheme in Wexford now.

It might start, but it was the agitation of the local politicians that made it possible. On one occasion the Minister for Local Government insisted in this House that only 30 houses were needed. In the past three or four years, plans have been made for some hundreds. That is indicative of the attitude of the Department of Local Government but certainly it has no regard for the actual needs of the people.

It is the Government's money that is putting up the houses.

It is the people's money.

That has always been the pattern.

That is true—found by taxation.

I have no objection to that. I do not know whether I should delay the time of the House further. The figures I gave for employment refute the suggestions of the Parliamentary Secretary that we are making great strides. The years 1955, 1956 and 1957 are regarded by the Fianna Fáil Party as black years for this country. How can that be if we had 54,000 more employed in the country? People should be fair in all these things and the Parliamentary Secretary and others in the Fianna Fáil Party should remember that and not talk about ineptitude and suggest that there was a bunch of people in what they call the Coalition Government who were reckless and wanted to ruin the country. I think the Parliamentary Secretary should remind himself, as he would if he thought, that this was a bad period in Britain as well as in Ireland, that no matter what we think, we must always realise that conditions here are affected by conditions in Britain to a large extent. He knows how helpless we are in the matter of the price of money. I spoke about control of prices. We can control prices but there is one thing we cannot do, that is, control the price of money.

What does the Deputy mean by the price of money?

The price which the Government are supposed to pay for money when they borrow.

They have to pay over five per cent.

What I am trying to tell the Parliamentary Secretary is, that conditions in this country are to a large extent affected by conditions in Great Britain and that is mainly because of the price of money. The Deputy will remember a month or two ago when the bank rate in Britain was changed, we had to change it upwards, too. If it goes down, we change it downwards. We are caught in that sort of trap. I do not suggest I have any solution for it but, when people talk about these things, they should appreciate the fact that conditions in Britain certainly affected conditions in Ireland at that time. There may be other reasons. The Parliamentary Secretary is entitled to make allegations against the Labour Party in that Coalition Government, or the Fine Gael Party or anyone else, but that is a fact that should not be ignored.

I shall conclude by saying that the claim that we are making great strides is exaggerated. We all want to see progress and to work towards progress no matter what our Party, but these are facts. We have an agricultural industry but we do not seem to be getting results. The industrial revival —as it is described—does not appear to be as successful as the claims made for it suggest. The Parliamentary Secretary should remember that when the late Deputy Norton, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, advocated foreigners coming in here and establishing industries, there was a lot of criticism from the Fianna Fáil Party suggesting he was selling out the country.

We should also be very conscious of the employment and unemployment situation, and conscious of the fact that, while the figure for emigration is lower than it was some years ago, it is still not at a level at which we can afford to be complacent. We have many problems. If the Government and the supporters of the Government assume we are making great strides, and that everything in the garden is rosy, their complacency can lead to disaster.

Introducing the Budget, the Minister referred to net national production as having increased by four per cent last year. I am assuming that figure is correct. I am also assuming it is a desirable thing. We all believe it to be a desirable thing. Having achieved a four per cent increase last year, and wishing to continue and increase it, why then did we get the Budget which, in point of fact, we got? That is something the Minister has not attempted to explain. This Budget has not given any help to national production. In so far as national productivity increases in 1964—and I hope it will increase—it will not have increased as a result of this Budget.

We are apt to think nowadays of the Budget as being not only a statement of the housekeeping of the Government for the previous 12 months, but above all we have become accustomed to expect the Budget to be a help, an incentive, and a spur, to national production and employment generally. That is one of the great functions of the Budget. It also should —and does to a certain extent—deal with matters such as pensions and so on. A small increase has been given to the poorer sections of the community. It is a very small increase and it is insufficient. However, I shall not discuss that.

Broadly speaking, we expect from the Budget something which will increase trade and make better employment possible. I take it that is a desirable thing in the Budget and, indeed, in the Minister's opening remarks we see that that is what the Budget should do. In point of fact, it does not. It is a patchwork. It gives a little in the way of increased pensions, but it takes away a great deal more in general expenses. The Minister referred to the risks involved in the ninth round of wage increases. That is a very far cry from the triumphant introduction of the ninth round to prevent, as the Taoiseach said, a free-for-all which was imminent. He also said we would have stability for 2½ years as a result of those increases. I sincerely hope that we will have stability for 2½ years but there was not any free-for-all imminent —no such thing.

A 2½ per cent sales tax—it is called a turnover tax but in point of fact it is a sales tax—was imposed in November. We were told it was to meet increased services, and we were told that if we had not that tax, we would have increased taxation of various sorts. We were told it was not a big tax, that it was a very small tax. Of course 2½ per cent does not sound a very big tax, but it is one of the largest taxes ever imposed in this country. A 2½ per cent turnover tax, as well as being an entirely new concept of taxation here, was a huge tax. We know that the estimated yield has been well realised, and that it has brought in more money than the Government thought it would.

There was a contradiction, of course. It was said that tax would be anti-inflationary. We were told it was a very small tax, but if it was a very small tax, its effect on inflation would be negligible. As I said a moment ago, it was a big tax, and it has not turned out to be anti-inflationary. The public kicked up a rumpus about that tax and the Government lost the by-election which took place at that time. Things began to get a bit hot and the Government decided they would have to do something about the next two by-elections which were to take place, so they brought in the ninth round which was supposed to be wonderful, and supposed to prevent a free-for-all. In point of fact, it was all for free, and that is the difficulty about it. It will take the country a long time to get over the inflation which was inherent in the reckless bringing in of that increase.

We are all glad to see increases in wages. Personally, I am glad to think that people are getting more money but we know that unless production increases, it will be very difficult to justify a large increase. That was to make up for the 2½ per cent tax. The 2½ per cent turnover tax was for the purpose of finding more money.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn