I heard two different voices in the debate supporting the Government. Deputy Crowley says he is quite happy that everything is going ahead and that the housing position is satisfactory. I think he is the only one in the country who says that. A different voice came from Deputy Molloy who says that the Government should employ the engineers, who are now idle in Galway due to the closing down of housing, on the surveys rather than employ surveyors. I think Deputy Molloy when he states that these engineers have to emigrate because there is no housing going on in Galway, either private or public, was nearer to the mark than our friend Deputy F. Crowley who stated that he is satisfied with the present position. I would ask the Minister to come out into the open and not try to create a false impression, because he is only fooling himself. The Minister will never admit publicly that there is a real shortage of money for housing. Indeed, when we hear him day after day at Question Time, if a question is raised about housing, he never really states that there is a real shortage of money and that that is the principal reason for the situation. I have no doubt that if the Minister had the money, there would be no scarcity of houses but why can he not say that? I believe that if we had a deputation of Deputies to the Minister in his office, he would come out and tell us that, and say: "I am sorry; I just cannot do that now, but I will try to do it when I get in more funds." If he would only take the people into his confidence, as well as taking the Deputies into his confidence, everyone would know the position. I do not blame the Minister for, after all, he is in an awkward position; he is in charge of a big Department where most of the money is being spent to repay loans on houses built years ago. I do not blame him for the position he is in and for the way in which he is embarrassed here every day, when he has not enough money to spend. Then, of course, he passes it over to the local authorities. I heard him say here today: "Oh, where is the local authority which did not apply for that years ago?" I think I heard the Parliamentary Secretary say the same thing to Deputy Pattison as to why something was not provided in Carlow. There is not much point in trying to push it over on the public, who are doing their best to get the Government to realise the position in the country. My honest opinion— and I believe it is the opinion of most of the people in the country—is that the responsibility for this lies with the Government.
When the Government came into office in 1956, they found there were ample houses being provided at that time and they decided that housing, in itself, was non-productive. Rather than keep on with the housing programme, they decided they would invest their money in other projects. They closed down housing, although the Taoiseach at that time, who is now President, said that his first responsibility to the public would be housing but, apparently, his voice was outweighed by the Government and he was not allowed to carry out what he stated was his aim at that time. Within the past few years, things have developed to a terrible crisis: houses have been falling and it was only then that the Government began to move, it was only then the Minister for Local Government was able to impress the views of the people of the country on the Government and only then did the Government relax somewhat. They relaxed in one way in that we were allowed to rehouse sub-tenants in corporation houses. Up to that, irrespective of whether there were three, four or five families living in one house, they could not be rehoused or, if they were, this was done at a price they could not afford.
We had a survey of the housing position in Kilkenny recently, when the county medical officer reported that 150 families needed houses, some of whom were living in shocking conditions. Deputy Coughlan mentioned the case of a father, mother and two adult children living in one room. Apparently the county medical officer reported that there were two married couples living in one room in Kilkenny, which is a disgrace to the country. Only within the past week, a woman with five children took possession of a corporation house which had been condemned. The woman was in dire circumstances looking for a house, when she saw her children wasting before her eyes. She had her name on a list of 150 and she is not even in the first 27 to be housed.
I do not think that any Party in the House would object to my suggestion that money be transferred from the Road Fund to housing to get over this present crisis. If things go well again, then, by all means, repay that money to the Road Fund, but, at the present time, housing should be a first charge on any reasonable Government or any reasonable people. We know the Minister cannot get money from the Government in the normal way. I am making the suggestion that he get it from the Road Fund rather than continue with the arterial roads programme for the time being. I would like to see the roads maintained and kept in proper condition—we do not want to see our assets go down—but a certain amount could be spared from the Road Fund to facilitate housing of the people.
There is no point in the Minister for Health touring the country with a White Paper to ascertain people's opinion on it, if, at the same time, the root cause of ill-health in a great number of families is not being removed. That is the first essential. If we had good housing, good sanitary services, good water and good sewerage, quite a lot of the ill-health of our people would be eliminated and Ardkeen Hospital would not have to cater for many of the children for whom they cater at present. During this very big crisis in housing, due to shortage of money—we all know there is an actual shortage of money and the Government have gone to London in an attempt to raise a loan of £5 million to relieve the position—I would suggest that money be transferred from the Road Fund to housing.
One matter brought me to my feet tonight especially, that is, to voice the opinion of my local corporation on the new electoral voting system which the Minister intends bringing in. Up to 1938 in Kilkenny city, we had two wards, each with 12 members: 24 members in the corporation. About that time, the system was changed and the number of members was reduced to 12. The electoral unit was reduced to one for the whole city. That has proved very satisfactory over the years since 1938. I am a member of the corporation and we have practically an 80 per cent attendance at corporation meetings every month in the city. At special meetings, we have the same. It has proved very satisfactory because when there were 24 there were too many and some members did not bother to attend meetings. Now it is more difficult to get elected. When they are elected, they appreciate the position all the more and turn up to meetings when they are called. Politics do not enter into our local affairs.
All the members of the corporation are most anxious to promote the welfare of the city and the three Parties in this House can only boast of six members out of the 12 on the corporation. The other six members are elected from representatives from various organisations in the city: there are some from the chamber of commerce, the Ratepayers' Association, a few Independents and others. All these representatives do their best and I think these organisations should be congratulated on putting up representatives of the public. Those who come forward for election should be congratulated on taking an interest in the welfare of their native city. After all, that is what we are anxious the people should do—work for the good of their own city and for the good of their country. These men have the courage to come forward against the various political Parties here in the House and, as I said, six of them were elected as against six members of the political Parties in this House. When this matter was raised, the Minister gave his word that if any council were unanimous in a decision to carry on with the present system, he would reconsider it very seriously. I can assure the Minister that not one voice was raised in Kilkenny in favour of a change in the system. Not a single voice was raised by a member of his own Party in support of the Minister's proposal: they were all most anxious that the present system should be maintained.
The result of that discussion went to the Minister and I understand that when it was received on the following day, his officials checked back to Kilkenny to know was this a genuine and unanimous vote, and they were told that it was the genuine and unanimous vote of Kilkenny Corporation that the present system should be maintained. I took it for granted then that it would be maintained. After all, a man's word should be as good as his bond. I took the Minister's word here in the House and I said that he would reconsider not changing the system. Everyone in Kilkenny got a great shock last week. As a matter of fact, I was away for a few days and I saw in the Independent that the Minister intended bringing in the new system.
What advantage does he hope to get from it in Kilkenny? What advantage will it bring us in Kilkenny? There might be an argument for it in a city like the city of Cork where there are 40 or 45 representatives on the corporation and there is a ballot paper with 80 or 90 names on it. In Kilkenny we have the same ballot paper today as we had under the old system. The voters in Kilkenny are acquainted with any candidate who goes forward and they know whom they are voting for. In Cork or in Limerick, there may be a case for a new system. In Kilkenny, we do not interfere in anyone else's business. Is this a compliment to the organisations who have the good of the country and the city at heart? The Minister should encourage these people and all people to take an interest in public life. There is a suggestion that we should have civic classes in the schools to teach our children civic spirit. Now we are being told that if we do not belong to one of the big political Parties, we can no longer be members of the corporation.
The Minister said there would be no change in towns with a population of under 10,000. Our population is 10,057 —57 over the mark. Have we not got enough trouble already in this country with borders without the Minister bringing three borders into Kilkenny city? The river makes one division and you would have to look at a map to see the other division. It goes up and down and you would not know what street or what side of a street is in the different areas. Will the Minister tell us what the Government have at the back of their minds in regard to this change? I can appreciate that there might be a reason for it in a city like Cork where there are a big number of candidates, and big voting lists, and people may get confused. In Kilkenny, the biggest number of candidates we would have would be 24, and everyone knows the candidates. I am sorry the Minister is not here to hear my appeal but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will convey my views to him. Even at this eleventh hour, he might reconsider the matter. When he is replying, would he give us some idea of what he had in mind when making this change? Is it for the good of a town like Kilkenny, or is it for Party political purposes? I should hate to think it is. We are a happy family in Kilkenny and we try to do our best. We try to invite industries, and to build up the city to make it a bigger city than it is now.
I am glad that the Minister has sanctioned the Mooncoin regional water scheme, but I understand that expenditure this year will be confined to £45,000. A very good firm in Kilkenny got the contract and I would prefer if the Minister would let that firm go ahead and get the job done. There are many farmers in the south of the county who are supplying the creameries with milk and they need water for cooling. There is to be a bonus payment of 2d a gallon and I am sure they will be anxious to get that bonus. This scheme has not been as long on the stocks as the scheme Deputy Dunne mentioned for County Dublin, but it has been considered for a long number of years. It is a pity it was not carried out long ago. Some people have provided water for themselves. The scheme would have been more economic if it had been carried out some years ago. However, we will be glad to have it done.
Members of corporations feel that the Minister put differential rents into our heads. It is an advantage in a city like Kilkenny to have low rents. Some inducement must be offered to the people to stay in the country, and if we charge the same rents as are charged in Dublin, they will not have that inducement. This will also increase the cost of living and we have been asked by the Government to maintain the cost of living. If you want to increase the cost of any material, you have to apply to the Department of Industry and Commerce for sanction. We have to apply to the Department to bring in a differential rents scheme. I do not think tenants who could afford to pay more would object to some small increase in their rents, an increase sufficient to cover the increase in the cost of repairs so that the houses will be maintained in proper condition. No tenant who can afford to pay would object to that. Similarly, if there are any old age pensioners who would suffer hardship through differential rents, they might be relieved. But I would not agree that differential rents should be used to subsidise rates. It is all very well when a family is reared and money flowing in but the father and mother had to go through 16 or 20 years hardship to rear that family, and when they achieve a little prosperity, we do not want the corporation to come along and rake off that prosperity in differential rents.
I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to convey my ideas to the Minister. He already knows my ideas on housing and the shortage of houses in Kilkenny. My purpose in speaking was to support the Minister in getting money from the Government to relieve the housing shortage, not to embarrass him. I want him to get a share of the money, which I feel is being wasted in other directions, directed to housing. I also asked the Parliamentary Secretary to convey to the Minister the general views of members of the corporation from all Parties and Independents, regarding the present position of the corporation, and I would ask him not to go ahead and divide us.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,