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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 1966

Vol. 224 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £19,606,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant in Aid.

The net Estimate of £19,606,000 for my Department is shown in the Estimates volume as £859,000 greater than last year's. Of that increase, £125,000 is in the grant-in-aid to Radio Telefís Éireann for licence revenue, and accordingly the net increase for the service directly provided by my Department would appear to be £734,000. The actual increase is, in fact, rather less, as an additional £187,000 was provided towards to end of the year in the general Supplementary Estimate for Increases in Remuneration at a time when it was too late to carry out the corresponding charge in the Estimates volume.

The subheads with substantial variations from the amounts shown for last year are:—

The increase of £450,000 in Salaries, Wages and Allowances is mainly to meet the cost of pay revisions resulting from those claims which my predecessor mentioned in March of last year as not then settled. There is also provision for additional staff for telephone traffic and postal business in the cities. The subhead does not, of course, include anything for the 10th round increases, which have either recently been granted or are under negotiation.

The increase of £87,000 in Travelling and Incidental Expenses is mainly due to higher subsistence rates and to more travelling by engineering staff.

The reduction of £134,000 for the Conveyance of Mails is the result of revised financial arrangements recently concluded for the conveyance of mails without any disimprovement of services.

The increase of £63,000 in Postal and General Stores is mainly for the expansion of the postal motor fleet.

The decrease of £1,211,000 in engineering Stores and Equipment is due to a number of factors. About £650,000 less is being provided for the purchase of stores. For reasons mentioned later the amount of stores used last year fell considerably below expectations, and this year's programme will be met in part from stores carried over from last year's purchases. The allocation for contract works is also down by approximately £650,000. In part this is because last year, as my predecessor explained at the time, we had to cover extensive contract works at the automatic telex exchange and at the new Central Sorting Office. Last year we had also to make an exceptionally large provision for extensions to some of the existing automatic telephone exchanges.

The increase of £589,000 in Telephone Capital Repayments is the result of growth in the capital investment in the telephone service.

The decrease of £894,000 in Appropriations in Aid arises mainly from the reduction in the recoveries expected from Telephone Capital funds.

Letter traffic in 1965 was about one per cent higher than in the previous year. Christmas postings reached a new record about four per cent above 1964. The volume of air post continued to increase steeply, first class mail being up by nine per cent and second class mail by 23 per cent.

Inland parcel traffic fell six per cent below the 1964 level. Foreign parcel posting, on the other hand, rose by 13 per cent.

The mails services were directly affected by the CIE transport strike in June, 1965. The letter services were well maintained by the setting up of an emergency road network using Departmental vehicles. The operation of the parcel service was, however, seriously hampered by the lack of suitable transport. Eventually the service had to be suspended, except for local deliveries, shortly before the dispute was settled. The strike in the Dublin deep sea docks in January last affected deliveries of some incoming American and foreign mails. The British seamen's strike in May/June last delayed parcel mails to and from Britain and foreign surface mails normally routed through Britain. The services were kept in operation despite the difficulties.

The foreign post rates for letters and postcards to Europe and corresponding surface rates to overseas countries were reduced from 1st January last. This change and other less important ones were effected in implementation of the Universal Postal Union Convention of Vienna, 1964, which was signed by the representatives of 122 countries including Ireland.

Changes made in the financial arrangements for long haul conveyance of mail have resulted in considerable savings which are reflected in the lower provision under Subhead D to which I have already referred.

The great bulk of postal expenditure under other headings consists of staff costs. The service is, in fact, a typical labour intensive service: it employs a very large labour force and comparatively little capital. Even small increases in staff costs may result in substantial increases in total postal expenditure. A per cent wage increase, for instance, costs the postal service about £60,000 a year. The possibilities of absorbing even modest wage increases are therefore extremely limited.

The survey referred to in my predecessor's statement on the Estimate for 1965-66 has shown that there is considerable scope for motorising rural delivery services. During 1965, 122 extra postmen's routes were motorised. Although motorisation cannot offer spectacular savings—at least while delivery is made on a door-to-door basis—it does provide the only prospect, short of retrenchment of services, of reducing the heavy losses on rural delivery. In this regard the broad position on most rural posts is that the total postage on items delivered does not cover even the wages of the postman.

Amalgamation of posts on motorisation led to a reduction of 63 rural posts which was partially offset by the creation of 26 new full-time posts in cities and larger towns. These were required mainly to serve new housing estates.

A new sub-post office was opened in the Industrial Estate at Shannon. Thirteen sub-post offices with an insignificant volume of business were closed on the occurrence of vacancies.

The general closing time for counter business at sub-post offices was, on the recommendation of the Commission of Inquiry into the Sub-Office System, advanced from 6.30 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. Exceptionally, there is 6.0 p.m. closing on Fridays. The same closing hours have recently been introduced at all Departmentally staffed post offices outside Dublin city except Cork, Limerick, and a few of the other large offices where the closing time is 6.0 p.m. throughout the week. The position at the Departmentally staffed Dublin offices is still under consideration.

The new Dublin Central Sorting Office at Sheriff Street is due to be completed early next year. We can then start on the operation of centralising it in the new building work which is at present being carried out in five separate premises. This operation will have to be carried out in stages. The availability of suitable accommodation and facilities will enable certain mail distribution work now being performed under contract to be taken over by the Department.

Modern mail handling machinery, including semi-automatic parcel and packet sorting machines and conveying equipment of various kinds, is being installed. Automatic letter sorting machines will not be provided in the new premises initially but accommodation has been earmarked for them. The development of mechanisation in the field of letter sorting even in the most highly industralised countries has been rather slow, mainly because letter traffic consists of items which differ widely in size, shape, weight and consistency. It now appears that most of the technical difficulties are in sight of being resolved. In anticipation of the successful development and extensive use of such machines, the Universal Postal Union has adopted a resolution on the standardisation of sizes of envelopes needed to facilitate mechanisation.

Having regard to the time required to prepare the way for eventual mechanisation it is not too early to join with other countries in taking certain measures recommended in the UPU resolution to which I have referred and it is proposed to do so after consultation with manufacturers and other interests concerned.

Thanks to the co-operation of the public, the use of district numbers on letters addressed to places in the Dublin numbered districts continues to grow. Over 70 per cent of the letters delivered now bear the district numbers.

Special postage stamps were issued in 1965 to commemorate the centenary of the International Telecommunication Union, the centenary of the birth of William Butler Yeats and to mark 1965 as International Co-Operation year. We also joined with other member countries of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations in producing a further "Europa" issue in 1965.

So far as the programme for 1966 is concerned, the set of eight stamps in commemoration of the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Rising, 1916, was placed on sale as from 12th April last. Our most recent issues have been one in honour of Roger Casement and another in the Europa series. The 1966 programme will be completed on 8th November by the issue of a stamp commemorating the 750th Anniversary of the founding of Ballintubber Abbey.

Recommendations for the proposed new series of permanent postage stamps have been received from the Stamp Design Advisory Committee and are at present being considered.

An arrangement has been made with the United Nations for the sale of United Nations postage stamps. Supplies are stocked at the Philatelic Section, GPO, Dublin 1.

The total number of telegrams handled continued to decline, but the drop of 6 per cent to 1,384,000 in 1965 was somewhat less than in the previous year. The decrease in the number of internal telegrams and telegrams to and from Great Britain and Northern Ireland was again partly offset by an increase of about 23,000 in incoming and outgoing foreign telegrams. The trend has continued for many years, and foreign telegrams now account for 25 per cent of the total number of telegrams handled as compared with only 8 per cent ten years ago.

Despite the overall decrease in telegraph traffic, revenue from telegrams increased by about £20,000 in 1965-66 largely because this was the first full year of operation of the increased charges introduced in 1964.

During the year, Norway was included in the Gentex service which provides for direct transmission of telegrams to and from certain continental countries. Direct connection by automatic switching is now available between this country and six continental countries in all, that is Belgium, France, Germany, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway.

Two direct telegraph circuits by submarine cable are now also available to the United States; they are used both for telegrams and telex calls.

I mentioned last year that the continuing decline in telegraph traffic makes it possible to cease teleprinter working at certain offices which are connected to the teleprinter automatic switching, TAS, system. Of the 22 TAS offices which were working last year, one office was closed recently and another will be closed shortly. When a TAS office is closed, telegrams are diverted to a neighbouring office which can more economically handle the traffic.

The demand for telex has continued to grow. Since the conversion to automatic working in October, 1964, the number of subscribers has nearly doubled. The present figure is 376 and there is a waiting list of 135.

The telex exchange was completely full at the end of July, but a new extension which is almost completed has made it possible to recommence connection of new subscribers. This extension will increase the capacity of the exchange to about 900 and a further extension is under consideration.

Every effort is being made to reduce the number in the waiting list and to get back to the position where service can be provided within a month or two. To this end additional engineering staff are being trained on telex work and it is hoped to make a progressive speed up in the connection rate as the staff gain experience. Even so, because of the size of the waiting list, it is likely that those applying now will in general have to wait at least six months for service. In some engineering districts where the demand for telex is light, it may be possible to provide service in a shorter period but in certain areas circuits are not readily available and the delay in providing service may be substantially more than six months.

Telex service is now available to 105 countries. During 1965 traffic internally and to Great Britain increased by 33? per cent. Outgoing foreign calls increased by 64 per cent. The increase in the number of calls is due in part to the fact that in the automatic service subscribers can make short calls at very low rates to Great Britain and several European countries. Net telex receipts in 1965-66 were about £164,000, an increase of almost 38 per cent on the previous year.

Expansion of the telephone service was maintained at a generally satisfactory rate during the financial year 1965-66. The traffic handled totalled over 217 million calls which represented an increase of almost 19 million on the previous year. There were 194 million local calls, of which 86 per cent were automatic, and 23 million trunk calls of which 23 per cent were automatic. The proportion of automatic calls was 80 per cent overall; in other words, 4 calls out of every 5, local and trunk, were dialled direct.

The improvement and extension of the trunk network and exchange system were continued during the year. This work is essential to secure an efficient standard of service and to lay the basis for further expansion. It is necessary to devote a considerable proportion of our total resources to these features of development and for the present this will continue to set a limit to what can be done in the connection of new subscribers.

In the case of the trunk network nearly 1,400 additional circuits were brought into service on some 240 routes. A further 420 circuits have been provided in the first quarter of the current financial year. Most of these circuits are in underground or aerial cable or in radio links, so that the quality and reliability of the service was improved on many routes which had up to then been dependent on open wire systems. Major underground trunking schemes have been completed between Cork-Bandon, Limerick-Kilmallock, Limerick-Tipperary and Dublin-Drogheda, a Cork-Youghal coaxial cable has been brought close to completion and the coaxial cable laid between Carlow-Athy-Portlaoise was brought into full service. In addition about 45 aerial cable schemes were completed.

In the service to Britain 48 additional circuits were established and since March last a further 20 have been added. The addition of a further 100 is planned during the next 12 months. The number of trans-Atlantic channels to North America was increased from four to six, the additional circuits in this case being provided via the Satellite, Early Bird. The satellite route is giving an excellent service and is an example of the great progress being made in telecommunications today.

Good progress has been made also with the replacement of manual exchanges by automatic installations. During 1965-66 25 exchanges were converted to automatic working, including such important ones as Arklow, Athy, Carlow, Ennis, Tullamore and Wicklow. So far in the current financial year 34 additional exchanges have been converted, including those at Ballinasloe, Mallow, Mountmellick, Portarlington and Tipperary. The total installed capacity of these new exchanges amounts to 8,000 lines which will cater for growth for several years ahead, and there is in all cases adequate space available for future expansion as required.

New exchanges were opened in Dublin at Blanchardstown and Finglas to replace existing ones which owing to rapid development had become inadequate for traffic needs in these areas, and at Phibsboro to cater for growing requirements in this area of the city. In Cork a new exchange was opened at Wellington Road to serve the north side of the city.

Twenty existing automatic exchanges were extended by some 8,000 lines and additional capacity was provided at over 100 manual exchanges.

Six small manual and two small automatic exchanges were opened in new areas to cater for development.

Concerning the connection of new subscribers, the number of installations totalled 13,500. This figures would have been substantially higher but for the effects of storms and floods towards the end of the year. The extensive damage caused to plant in many parts of the country in November and December necessitated the diversion of a lot of our installation staff to repair work. The position was also aggravated by labour difficulties. Notwithstanding these various obstacles the waiting list was reduced from 14,260 at 31st March, 1965, to 13,300 at 31st March this year. It now stands at approximately 13,200, of which 2,700 are in course of installation.

Moreover, there has been a substantial change in the composition of the list. Progress was made in clearing older applications which had been deferred repeatedly because they required very extensive construction work. The bulk of these have been attended to, and the work involved was out of proportion to the number of connections made.

The telephone service felt the effects of labour unrest in industry generally. Strikes and threatened strikes produced quite abnormal pressure on the telephone system, causing at times sharp deterioration in the standard of service, as well as delaying the installation of the additional exchange equipment which had been ordered to enable peak traffic to be carried.

The impact of all these factors showed the service in an unfavourable light at times, and some justifiable complaint resulted. I have no wish to endeavour to minimise the seriousness of the inconvenience caused to telephone users in these circumstances but it is only fair to say that everything possible was done within the limits of our resources to cater for the exceptional surges of traffic.

I know that it may not be a great comfort to people experiencing inconvenience or having cause for dissatisfaction with the telephone service to be told that Ireland is not the only country with these difficulties. Nevertheless I feel bound to say that it would be wrong to think that such deficiencies as exist in our telephone service are, internationally speaking, unique or exceptional. Those with experience of telephone service in other European countries or who read the foreign press know that waiting lists for telephones and just complaints about the service are not a peculiarly Irish disease. The reasons for the difficulties existing in other administrations are much the same as here, the vast capital expenditure required to meet the explosive increase in the demand for telephone facilities, and the lengthy period required to effect significant improvements.

These are the greatest problems in providing a satisfactory telephone service. Concerning the capital requirement it should suffice to say that although we spent £23½ millions in the last five years as against £7¾ millions in the previous five, it was obviously not enough. In regard to the time aspect the position is that, despite every possible short cut, major extensions to equipment take several years to arrange. Very often new buildings have to be provided and the acquisition of sites, erection of buildings, securing delivery of equipment and having it installed all contain elements of uncertainty as regards date of completion which can be affected by innumerable factors.

The long-term planning constantly proceeding is not, of course, confined to equipment. It is also necessary to build up the force of skilled men engaged in engineering work. Our technicians undergo academic and field training over a period of four years. The intake of trainees for the skilled force has been raised progressively over a period of years so that we now have 400 youths being trained to provide for the future growth and maintenance of the service as compared with 87 six years ago. The benefits of this increase in intake will not be fully felt until the training is completed and the men are assigned to full duty. Their advent to the skilled ranks will be most welcome, especially on the maintenance side as the growing size and complexity of the system necessitates a continuing increase in skilled maintenance staff. When it is remembered that there are over 160,000 exchange lines, 1,100 exchanges, 10,000 trunk circuits and 1,300 kiosks a fair idea can be obtained of the scale of the maintenance job to be done.

Turning to the future, it is intended to continue in the current financial year with the work of developing the trunk and exchange network in order to equip it to cater for increased growth. A new co-axial cable which has been laid between Sligo and Letterkenny will be in full service by next summer. Contracts have been placed for major cable schemes between Athlone-Ballina, Cork-Bantry-Skibbereen, Dundalk-Castleblaney-Monaghan, Cavan-Mullingar, and Arklow-Gorey-Enniscorthy. These schemes should be completed in about three years, but some advance circuits will be available before then. In conjunction with these schemes, extensive development has been or will be undertaken on branch spurs off the main routes and when the work is done service from these areas will be greatly improved.

Tenders are under consideration for a new radio link route to supplement the southern co-axial cable serving Cork, Limerick, and Waterford. This is a very important scheme which will have the additional advantage of making available alternative routing for traffic in the event of failure in or damage to the underground co-axial cable.

Agreement in principle has been reached with the British Post Office for the provision of a new cross-Channel route by means of a radio link through Northern Ireland. The new route will have a capacity of 960 circuits. It will make possible the introduction of subscriber dialling to Britain and further afield as well as to the Six Counties.

In regard to the exchange automatisation programme, we have in hands orders for a large number of exchanges which will engage our resources of staff and capital for a period ahead, and these will be pressed forward with all possible speed. The foundations for a fully satisfactory service are being laid and it is my intention to build on them until the country has the first class telephone system that it needs.

Concerning the installation of new telephones, I am hopeful that we will be able to effect a further reduction in the waiting list during the current financial year and I intend to continue the policy of providing service for applicants who have been a long time waiting even though installation of their lines involves and abnormal volume of work.

Deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank amounted to £24.2 million during 1965 and withdrawals to £24.4 million. At 31st December, 1965, the total balance due to depositors, including interest, was approximately £109.9 million as compared with £107.5 million at the end of the previous year.

Deposits and withdrawals by the Trustee Savings Banks during the year amounted to £1 million and £1.2 million respectively, and the total amount, including interest, to the credit of the Trustee Banks at the end of the year, was £19.4 million, an increase of £0.5 million over the previous year.

Sales of Savings Certificates for 1965 amounted to £5,408,000 and repayments, including interest, amounted to £4,351,000. The net accretion for the year was £1,057,000. A new Seventh issue of Savings Certificates was placed on sale as from 19th March last. The compound interest rate over the eight years to maturity of the new certificates averages 5¼ per cent per annum. As the interest is exempt from income tax, this gives the equivalent of 8 per cent per annum gross to a holder who is liable for tax at a standard rate of 7s.

The volume of funds handled by the Department's remittance and agency services continues to increase. The total value of money orders and postal orders issued during 1965 was nearly £28 million, this being £300,000 more than in the previous year. Social Welfare and other agency service payments went up substantially from £39 million to nearly £42 million.

During the year a new post office and telephone exchange at Youghal and a new district sorting office at Harmonstown, Dublin, were completed. A telephone exchange building and engineering centre was provided at Kilkenny and telephone exchange buildings were erected at Tipperary and Wellington Road, Cork. Major extensions to existing exchange buildings were carried out at various centres elsewhere and 54 new rural automatic exchanges were built.

Construction of the new trunk exchange in Dame Court, Dublin, was finished recently and an improvement scheme at Greystones post office, County Wicklow, has also been completed.

Works in progress include a new post office and engineering centre at Carlow, new automatic telephone exchange buildings at Gorey and Swords, an automanual telephone exchange building at Tralee, extensions to the Mullingar and Walkinstown telephone exchanges and the erection of 45 rural automatic exchanges. As I have already mentioned, the new Central Sorting Office for Dublin is nearly completed.

The number of staff provided for in the current year's Estimate is 18,923, an increase of 254 on last year's figure. The increase is due mainly to the continued growth of the telephone service, necessitating a greater number of staff, particularly telephonists, to deal with the extra traffic.

Staff costs in the Post Office, as elsewhere, continue to increase each year but every effort is made to offset these increases by the adoption of more efficient and economical methods. As was mentioned on a number of occasions before, the Department has its own full-time Organisations and Methods Staff and substantial economies have been achieved as a result of their activities over the years.

During the year a firm of industrial consultants was commissioned to carry our an examination of the organisation, grading and methods of work at sub-professional level in the Department's Engineering Branch. This examination has been in progress for some months, but it is extensive in scope and will take some time to complete. It is not possible therefore at this stage to say what the outcome of it will be. During the past year also, firms of industrial consultants were invited to carry our preliminary surveys of clerical procedures in Headquarters offices to assess what scope there might be for extending the use of automatic data processing equipment. The results of the preliminary surveys undertaken have been encouraging and it is expected that one of the firms concerned will be commissioned shortly to carry out the full-scale examination necessary to enable maximum savings to be realised.

Within the past two years, five-day week working has been introduced for many grades in the Department. Claims for grades which have not yet a five-day week are at present under consideration by the Department's conciliation council.

As Deputies know, the report of the Commission of Inquiry into Certain Aspects of the Sub-Post Office System was published last year and my decisions on the recommendations of the Commission announced. Various matters relating to these recommendations are under discussion at the Sub-Postmasters' Conciliation Council.

The Department did not, I regret, escape its share of labour troubles during the past year. I do not propose, however, to rake over old fires by commenting further on these now and I would like to take this opportunity of extending publicly to the staff in general my thanks for the work done throughout the year.

Deputies are aware that we are in membership of the international organisations covering the postal and telecommunications fields and that the Department participates actively in the work of these bodies. The contributions which we have been able to make towards solving problems of common interest have been generously recognised by international conferences in selecting Irish officials to fill important roles at these meetings. When the plenipotentiary conference of the International Telecommunications Union was held in the autumn of last year, Ireland was elected for the first time to the Administrative Council —the governing body of the Union— and an official of the Department was elected Vice-President of the Council.

The services of officials of the Department have been sought also in other international activities and, at present, six officers selected by the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunications Union are serving in Afghanistan, Ceylon, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, and Liberia assisting with and advising on certain postal and telecommunications problems. In addition, six United Nations scholarships holders from middle Eastern countries and South Korea came here this year to study various aspects of Post Office services.

The Commercial Accounts for 1964-65, have been laid on the table of the House. A summary of the results for that year and for the four preceeding years is given in Appendix C to the Estimate.

As Deputies are aware, the Commercial Accounts present the position of the Department as a trading concern. They are compiled in accordance with commercial practice to show the expenditure incurred and the income earned during the year of account, such charges as interest and depreciation being included in the expenditure. A balance sheet and statement of assets gives details of the Department's very large capital investments, mainly in telephone plant. The accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

It is to these accounts we look in determining financial policy, including the fixing of charges. The basic principle of that policy is that the Post Office should pay its way, taking one year with another. That means at the very least that the Department must earn a surplus in good years to meet the losses in bad years and to provide a reserve against contingencies. If the Post Office were not to pay its way, the loss would have to be made good by taxpayers generally.

There was an over-all loss on the Department's services in 1964-65 of £67,000 approximately, compared with a loss of £165,000 approximately in the previous year. In both years losses on the postal and telegraph services were partially offset by a surplus on the telephone service. Final figures for last year are not yet available but the indications are that there will be a small surplus, probably of the order of £300,000 on a total expenditure of nearly £19½ millions. I would expect the result this year to be approximately the same if costs do not rise substantially above their present level.

From the long-term aspect, the position is that about 60 per cent of the Department's expenditure is on wages, salaries and related payments and such costs generally are continuing to rise. Other developments are also making for higher costs. The expansion of the sub-structure of the telecommunications network—exchanges, trunk circuits, etc.—requires the investment of large quantities of capital on which interest has to be paid and provision made for depreciation. Until that sub-structure can be fully developed the investment may not bring in adequate additional revenue. On the postal side, the expansion of cities and towns necessitates more postmen and delivery offices for the outlying areas and it is difficult to make corresponding savings in the areas where population is declining. It will be realised that the Department's financial position is likely to be a cause of continuing concern.

The grant to Radio Telefís Éireann, calculated in the usual manner, is provided for in Subhead K. The increase of £125,000 over the 1965-66 provision is because of the expected growth in revenue from combined licences as more people get television sets. In this connection Deputies will remember that the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1965, which was debated in this House in February, provided that the Authority should continue to receive the full net proceeds of broadcasting licence revenue for each of the five years ending 31st March, 1970. The Bill was passed by the Seanad without amendment and is now law.

This Estimate is being taken a good deal later than usual. Accordingly, unlike other years, Deputies have had the opportunity of reading Radio Telefís Éireann's annual report for the past financial year. As the recent annual report is a mine of information on the happenings of the year 1965-66, I assume that Deputies will not expect me to say as much as usual about radio and television questions, particularly as my Second Reading speech on the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill went into details on financial matters.

I would, however, like to refer briefly to two points mentioned in the annual report. The first concerns the postponement of an adjustment of the rates for television advertisements because of the Government's price stabilisation policy. In replying to the debate on the Second Reading of the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill on 1st February, 1966, I referred to the Government's intervention on this matter and said that it was something which would have to be re-examined. It has in fact, been re-considered and the Government recently agreed that the Authority could revise television advertising rates by reference to the increase in set-count since the last revision, on condition that Radio Telefís Éireann will not draw on the Exchequer for capital purposes in the financial year 1967-68.

I understand that in accordance with that decision revised advertisement rates will be introduced as from 1st December next. I might say that the Authority have not sought any Exchequer advances for capital purposes since February, 1964, and that no provision for such advances has been made in the current year.

The second point I should like to mention is the extension in sound broadcasting hours with effect from 1st October, 1966. From time to time the Authority pressed strongly for permission to introduce day-long radio broadcasting. Last year I informed the authority that their proposals, which would have involved an increase in the radio licence fee, could not be accepted during the current period of economic difficulties and that I did not favour any new commitment which would have the effect of increasing the deficit on sound broadcasting. Subsequently the Authority re-examined their proposals with maximum economy in view and decided to tackle the problem in two stages.

During the first stage, broadcasting hours would be extended to fill the broadcasting gap between 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. Thus the gap between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. would be left over for a later day. I submitting its proposals for filling the morning gap the Authority stressed the desirability of increasing the hours of broadcasting concurrently with the coming into operation of the VHF transmitters. The new proposals were estimated to cost £25,000 nett per annum. I was assured that this could be met out of the Authority's general revenue, and that the Authority would not seek any adjustment in the radio licence fee by reason of the extension. In the circumstances I was glad to be able to give my consent to the increase in hours which I feel sure will be very welcome to the public.

As Deputies are aware, eight members of the Authority were reappointed for a further five years until 31st May, 1971, but the former Chairman, Mr. Eamonn Andrews did not wish to be considered for re-appointment and was replaced by Dr. C. S. Andrews. More recently, the Government appointed Mr. Michael O'Callaghan to fill the vacancy caused by the death in tragic circumstances of Mr. E. B. MacManus who had been a member of the Authority since it was established on 1st June, 1960. The Government have already placed on record their appreciation of the valuable work done by Mr. Andrews and I should like now to express its appreciation of Mr. MacManus's services during the initial difficult stages of the development of the Irish TV service.

As I said in the Dáil recently in reply to a Parliamentary Question, it has been decided to request Radio Telefís Éireann to provide a multichannel television-aerial service in the Ballymun housing project in view of the special circumstances which apply there, and details of the scheme are at present being worked out. The special circumstances are that reception of Telefís Éireann programmes on indoor aerials in the two-storey houses at Ballymun will not be satisfactory, because of adjacent high buildings, and that it will not be possible for residents to have individual outdoor aerials, because of the unique features of the building project.

My predecessor mentioned last year that the Government had decided that the Council of Europe Agreement aimed against pirate broadcasting stations operating on board ships anchored outside national territories should be signed on behalf of Ireland, subject to ratification. Each party to the Council of Europe Agreement undertakes to take appropriate steps to make punishable as offences, the establishment or operation of such broadcasting stations and acts of collaboration knowingly performed. Fresh legislation will be necessary before the Agreement can be ratified. I cannot say yet when it is likely to be introduced, but my Department will follow with great interest the parliamentary debates in Britain on the same subject.

On a point of order, it was intimated to me that Motion No. 31 was to be taken with the Estimate. Would the Chair confirm that?

The Chair has no information on that matter.

That is extraordinary because the Minister's office sent word to me that they were arranging for this to be done.

The Whips should have notified the Chair. I agree that it should be taken and I understand that it has been agreed between the Whips, subject to certain conditions, that the division be taken concurrently with the division on the Estimate.

That is correct. That was agreed.

The Chair has received no information on that.

It seems to be ludicrous. This was raised on the Order of Business today and the Taoiseach said he would communicate with us later on and did so. Surely somebody has fallen down on the job if the matter has not been brought to the notice of the Chair?

In any case a Private Member's motion may not be moved until the debate has concluded but it may be discussed with the Estimate.

Is the Chair prepared to allow that?

If the Chair is informed in the proper manner, the Chair has no objection to such procedure.

Perhaps the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would say what he means by "the proper manner"?

As Deputy Tully is Whip of his Party, I am surprised that, since it is his responsibility to do so, he did not notify the Chair. I think that is his duty.

That hare will not run because the Minister is aware that his secretary informed me that if we accepted the conditions, the motion could be discussed. We did, and he went back to the Minister for the purpose of having it brought to the notice of the Chair. If the Minister did not do that, I think it should be done now.

I think it is the duty of the Party sponsoring the motion to give these notices.

But we did so, and we asked for time.

In the circumstances private motion No. 31 may be discussed with the Estimate.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

When speaking last year on this Estimate, my Party moved to refer it back because of the delay in the installation of telephones. The same reasons are present this year but regrettably there are many other reasons also, to which I shall come later. First, I should like briefly to refer to one or two points which arise in connection with the Minister's speech. I should like to congratulate the members of his Department on their recognition in an international way and on the recognition which has placed one official of the Department in an important post as vice-chairman of one of the international bodies. Lest I should forget it later, I want to say now that the criticisms which I shall level at the Department are not levelled at individuals there who do their duty well by the public but against the overall policy for which the Minister is responsible. That is the reason for the criticism I shall make. The personnel of the Department and the other people in it have done their work well in very difficult conditions.

To begin with the delay in the installation of telephones, I should say that the telephone service is the paying part of the Department and should be pushed forward by every means at the Minister's disposal. The Minister said that on the 31st January, 1966, outstanding applications for telephones amounted to 12,667. That was in answer to a Parliamentary question earlier. This evening he has just told us that the latest figure is 13,200. That reflects a degree of buoyancy on the part of our citizens who hopefully come looking for telephones but it does not reflect any credit on the Minister and his Department.

The telephone service is starved of capital expenditure on telephones and has been for many years. The Minister has not taken the optimistic view of the future taken in other branches of the Irish economy. There is not much point in labouring the disadvantages which an inadequate telephone service entails for a country which like our own is trying by every means to increase its industrial and commercial ability. That policy has been a very serious hindrance to us and I feel that if this part of the work of the Department were managed by an industrial concern, capital expenditure would have been made so that instead of having to wait for telephones we would have men calling on or ringing up subscribers asking them to lay in extensions to their telephones. That could be done if matters like these were handled in a commercial fashion. I do not propose, nor do my Party propose, that the telephone service should be handed over to a commercial concern. I merely make a comparison and point out what would be done if the service were managed by such a company. I wish to point out that this should be handled by some sort of State enterprise.

Before I go into this question further, I should like briefly to refer to some of the dissatisfaction expressed by Deputies from various parts of the country showing that this shortage of telephones is widespread. I have a note that Deputy. Sweetman in February last referred to the grave shortage in Maynooth. In November last year, Deputy Gogan, from the Fianna Fáil benches, referred to outstanding applications in the Cabra area. Deputy Fitzpatrick from Cavan asked questions about his area. Deputy T. O'Donnell asked about the shortage in Limerick city and county and was told there were 595 on the waiting list. Deputy Donegan asked about Dundalk and Drogheda and was told there were 80 and 84, respectively, waiting for telephones. Deputy Harte was told about the shortage in Donegal and Deputy Esmonde, not for the first time, was told that the waiting list in Wexford was 330. Deputy Mullen was told there were more than 220 awaiting telephones in Finglas and other Deputies, including those from Dún Laoghaire, Rathdown and from County Dublin, were told about shortages in their areas. Deputy Gilhawley referred to the waiting list in Sligo and Deputy Government made inquiries about shortages in Carlow.

I shall not go into the position in each constituency but from what I have said it is quite clear that there is widespread need for a better telephone service. That is the picture as we see it and as the Minister and his officials must see it. Far from the position having improved since last January, it has slipped back. We in Fine Gael feel that because the Government have resisted all proposals to convert the telephone service into a State enterprise, we should try to get across to the public that it is a commercial enterprise and that as a commercial enterprise the profits made in it should encourage the Government to spend more by way of capital investment. It is treated as if it were part of the services administered by any other Department, as if revenue and expenditure were entirely unconnected. They are not entirely unconnected in the telephone service; they bear an exact relationship. It must be realised by the Minister that the more money spent on the telephone service, in the installation of new telephones, the more he will get back. This is an expanding thing and we urge that the telephone service should be separated from the other services administered by this Department. We urge that it be converted into a State enterprise.

In relation to other points, the fairest thing to say is that the information we have is not sufficient to enable us to determine exactly whether the needs of the public would be best met by the postal service being handled by a State enterprise. It may be that the postal service would also benefit from such a change. Certainly the telephone service would. It would take us away from the idea that revenue and expenditure have little in common. A telephone service is something which a modern State gives to its citizens and if the profit from it should be taken directly into the Exchequer as a gift to the Exchequer and not just taken in as part of receipts, like taxation receipts, the service must suffer.

I should like at this point to quote from an interesting report which has just been published by the Research and Technological Survey team appointed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in November, 1963, in association with OECD. Volume No. 1 of the main Report is entitled. Science and Irish Economic Development. I should like to read some of the remarks which this body, composed of very distinguished persons, said about public bodies and enterprises concerned with electronic equipment, radio television, Posts and Telegraphs and the Army Signal Corps. I quote from page 121:

The technological changes which could be introduced regarding electronic equipments, as indicated in Part 5, mainly require design with some research and rationalisation to replace imports, to make more intermediates and to raise exports. To reduce restrictions on these technological changes, it might be preferable to establish the telecommunications part of Posts and Telegraphs as a separate public enterprise.

Action proposed for consideration:

Establish telecommunications as a public enterprise with freedom to encourage electronic equipment use, technical development and increased manufacture of components in Ireland and to encourage joint research and contract research.

That part refers briefly to the valuable help which the telecommunications section of Posts and Telegraphs could give to the other parts of the public service.

I should like to read some more of this very interesting publication. Under the section dealing with the Postal Service, it says at pages 139 and 140:

The level of technology is low in some post offices, particularly in many urban areas where the load factor is highest. Queues are common. There are many different types of forms including duplicates to be handled. Automatic franking for use by the public, apart from that used by some business offices, is non-existent and many of the post offices themselves are apparently sited without regard for vehicle parking or customer convenience. There appears therefore to be an urgent need for research into the whole working of post offices with a view to rationalisation of procedures, modern equipment, new methods of speeding transactions, location of office and types of service to be automated. This may have to extend into standards of envelope shape for easier handling and franking, optimising postal routes and development of improved house post box systems and their location to save time and costs for postmen.

The Minister referred to this question of standardisation of types of envelopes which had been brought up at the Universal Postal Union, and we can see from this that it concerns our own Irish technologists in connection with the Post Office. We know that many post offices are located in the wrong places. That is not so easy to change. I do not want to blame the Post Office for things which happened many years ago, but I should like to see a realisation that a great deal of the premises and a great deal of the methods are in need of change—what the ancients used to call the "divine discontent", and the "divine discontent" with a great deal of the conditions in the post office and telephone service would be a very healthy thing for us.

The publication goes on to say:

The Survey is aware that many of the foregoing considerations have been studied and are constantly taken into account by the postal authorities. It is also known that surveys are made regarding the services provided and the siting of new offices... The postal system, however, which is one of the oldest operated by any government agency, uses technologies which have changed relatively little in most countries for the past 100 years. It is now evident that the social and economic changes taking place demand technological changes in services of this type, and some new techniques in research, notably that of operational research, would have particular application in bringing about improvements. New efforts therefore, using new techniques, both by the postal authorities and by sponsored research bodies appear worthy of serious consideration.

We would be interested to hear from the Minister as to how far that is being done in his Department.

There are a couple of paragraphs which I would claim the indulgence of the House to read concerning the telephone service, on the same page of this publication. It says:

The telephone service is undergoing severe stress in relation to economic expansion and it is barely meeting demand.

That is a very nice way of putting it, and I said earlier, that is, before I had read it, that the expansion of Irish industry and of commerce generally which has been going on here for a long time has not been matched by postal expansion.

Many weeks and sometimes months of delay occur in installing new phones and any long-term plan for the expansion of this service may need revision. It is also likely that within the next 15 years a demand for centralised computer services linked possibly with teleprinter communication will occur, e.g. for industrial engineering design needs. In many countries the telecommunications authority uses its large volume of business to foster design development, through research, of improved telecommunications equipment. Much of this may not be very expensive research provided one keeps outside of the satellite field. With expansion expected and taking place in the electrical engineering industry in Ireland, contract research from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs might be fostered with economic advantage.

In general, however, a separation of the telecommunications services from Posts and Telegraphs, and possibly its establishment as a public enterprise, might help to foster a faster development of this service which could lead to new industrial products, possibly for export.

There is more of that but I think possibly it is too technical to read out here. However, as I have quoted, the publication says: "With expansion expected and taking place in the electrical engineering industry in Ireland, contract research from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs might be fostered with economic advantage". In that connection I notice the Minister said that in Ballymun the Department of Posts and Telegraphs themselves were putting in an overall radio and television system; in other words, piped television and radio, on account of the grouping of the buildings in that area. I should like to ask the Minister whether he has got other tenders from Irish companies. There are a number of companies who could undertake that work and would very gladly tender for it.

I should like to correct the Deputy. I said Radio Telefís Éireann is doing the booster work in Ballymun, not the Post Office.

Surely that is a distinction without a difference? One is under the other.

No; it is very different.

I do not know. They are both Government Departments. Has the Minister got any alternative prices?

No; we did not look for any.

Is that not a pity?

There are reasons which I will explain later.

I like to see firms who are taxpayers in the country being entrusted with work of that sort by Departments of State because it is a great help to an Irish firm or to any firm, to be able to say that they have carried out work successfully for a Department or a section of a Department of their own country.

I think I have shown that there is a prima facie case for examining very closely the advisability of separating the postal service from the main body of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and that it is extremely likely that big savings would be made. Because of the very nature of government, something inherent in it—there is no use in beating the Minister with the weaknesses of government —a Government Department is not equipped to finance readily capital expenditure because there are so many demands on the Exchequer, demands which have more political significance on many occasions—and I do not necessarily mean that in any denigratory way; I mean it in the sense that there are demands on the Exchequer for payment of social services and so on and telephones might take a place behind them, the fact being that the more successful the telephone service, the more money would be made available for our ever-growing social services. At the same time, we in Fine Gael feel that a very close inquiry should be made into the postal services. I have not enough information to say, standing here, definitely that we are in favour of running the postal services as a State enterprise but I do say that I am in favour of very close examination being made as to the desirability of such a change taking place.

In that connection, the Minister referred to the difficulties that occurred earlier in the year—labour difficulties and so on—and I myself had some experience of those difficulties—difficulties that occurred in the telephone service, in connection with night telephonists, and so on. It would be a good thing if in that particular branch of the telephone service, the men were recruited on a permanent basis and if a career were opened up before those men. It would lead to a more contented staff and a better service to the public.

We in Fine Gael feel that a better service would be given to the public and at not that much extra cost to the Exchequer if the many postmen throughout the country who are in non-pensionable jobs were given a pension at the end of their days.

There are other aspects of the telephone service and the Post Office on which I have some points, mainly small ones, to make. For instance, in connection with the Savings Bank, greater privacy, whenever possible, would ensure that a man or women putting in or withdrawing money would not be under the close scrutiny of a friend or neighbour. The installation of stamp vending machines would be a real boon. I might say, just as a general remark, that firms from outside the country are very often appalled by the red tape that exists in connection with telephones generally.

I want now to move on to a discussion of the broadcasting services generally, that is, a discussion of Radio Telefís Éireann. This ought to be a very pleasant discussion and I ought to be able to talk about the delights of drama, the ecstasies of music, the interest of news and talks and the pleasure of entertainment but I am afraid that, instead of being able to make the pleasant remarks which it would be so nice to be able to make, I find that we are in a dark and gloomy atmosphere where politics is putting its heavy feet and scattering the nine muses and frightening their attendants. We should be able to speak of Radio Telefís Éireann in the highest terms of praise because we have very fine actors, very fine musicians and people who deliver the news and talks in a very fine way. In fact, our difficulty in Ireland is to keep the top people we have, such is the high standard of our drama and of many aspects and branches of music, both classical music and lighter music. We have very gifted people who appear before us in those two media.

To say that the RTE Authority has been in hot water, that it has been in a state of difficulty, is a clear under-statement of the case as it is. It does not give me any pleasure to say some of the things I feel it my duty to say in the course of the next part of my speech. I did expect that the Minister would have made some reference to these difficulties. One of the first difficulties we had was the resignation of Mr. Eamonn Andrews. He was Chairman of the Authority. He acted for a number of years in an exemplary fashion, bringing all the respect which his great name in the entertainment world carries with it. He retired. As far as I am concerned. I do not know why he retired from that post. No satisfactory explanation was ever given by the Minister. As we would expect from a person of Mr. Eamonn Andrew's high character, he maintained a dignified silence.

There were rumours, all sorts of rumours, concerning differences of policy. I do not know what differences of policy there may have been, but we lost the benefit of a person who had an unexampled experience of radio and television, not only in Europe but in the United States. We lost the benefit of his experience and advice, and no explanation has been given. In this connection I cannot help thinking of the statement which was made in connection with law. What is law but doing what is right and seeing that what is right is done? There was a great jurist who said that not only must the Government do justice but it must appear to be done. Certainly, with reference to the Minister and the Authority, justice does not always appear to be done. That is understanding the position.

The next shock we got was the dismissal of Mr. Tibor Paul who was musical director and first conductor of the orchestra. Many of us have been concerned, in regard to the Authority, at this sort of clock of silence which seems to enshroud anything that is in the least controversial connected with it. Many of us have tried to elicit information, but owing to the fact that it is not possible to get information concerning what is called the day-to-day administration of those bodies from the Minister, we cannot get it. I would like to say to musical and other people that it is not from and lack of desire to bring the question forward but owing to the rules of our Parliament that we cannot do that. I think it a pity that it cannot sometimes be done.

I should like to refer to this very burning question of the decision of the RTE Authority not to renew Mr. Tibor Paul's contract and the manner in which that information was conveyed to him. Mr. Paul is a musician of international repute. That is a word often loosely used, but in this connection we are dealing with somebody who is a very outstanding musician, a man who has been here for the past six years and who has done a great deal for the Radio Symphony Orchestra. He has helped to build up that orchestra to a very high position. It gives very great pleasure to many people. It is a very fine orchestra. It is one that every Irish person can be proud of. We can be certain that it is not just national pride when somebody says our symphony orchestra is a very fine one. It is a fact that it is a very fine one and has been recognised as such by all musicians who have heard it. We can well be proud of it. Mr. Tibor Paul has played his part, a very big part, in bringing it up to the pitch of perfection it has reached at the moment.

No reason was given as to why the contract of this musician was not being renewed. That information was not conveyed to him in time. In the classical concert music world, you can readily understand a musician lives at least 12 months ahead. He is booked for concerts; he has to study scores. I suppose Tibor Paul does not have to study many scores now; he probably has already gone into them. But programmes are made already for probably the winter of 1967-68. One is always dealing at least 12 months in advance. Therefore, to terminate Mr. Paul's contract roughly six months ahead of the time is not treatment which should be given to a musician. I was going to say "to a first-class musician", but it should not be given to any musician because the orchestras have their programmes made long in advance.

The first reason for dissatisfaction is that it was not a fair thing to do. The second is that insufficient notice was given and the third reason for dissatisfaction is that the news was premises of the Royal Dublin Society at Ballsbridge where he was about to conduct an orchestral concert of very great magnitude—well, all of them are: they are all big undertakings. He was about to conduct this concert when the letter was handed conveyed to this musician at the to him by the innocent bearer, one of the officials of the Royal Dublin Society. The letter was marked "Urgent and Personal". He guessed what was in it and so he did not open it until after the concert. The man collapsed and was taken to a nursing home and is still in that nursing home. That is the effect a thing like that can have on an artist. We people who live in a world where we are not tuned up to the pitch of musicians may find that difficult to understand but it is so, and I think that our Radio Authority and the Director General should realise that and should not have done it. I could say a lot more about it. I feel that a very great injustice has been done to a man who deserves well of Irish musicians and of Ireland generally.

There was a further matter in connection with the Orchestra and the Authority and the Director. The Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra was offered a contract in America by a very well known and important American agency, namely, Columbia Artists' Management, Incorporated. That is not just a small concern; it is a very big concern which arranges appearances for musicians. They offered the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra an engagement in America to take place in the autumn of 1967: that will show the House that my earlier statement that the musical world lives a year or a year and a half in advance was not an idle one. That agency offered a tour of six weeks, 36 concerts, next October. They would pay 9,450 dollars each week to the Orchestra. They would pay 175 dollars a week for conductors' expenses. They would pay up to 15 dollars a man per day between the arrival of the company in the States and the first concert. The outcome of all that means that the orchestra should be able to pay all its expenses in the United States out of the items guaranteed by Columbia. The orchestra would have to pay its expenses across to America but that would not necessarily be very big in comparison with the money that would come in. It would have meant an enormous amount of free advertising for Ireland, for our music——

Irish music?

Some of the music played by our orchestra would be Irish. However, this would be appealing to a wider audience than an audience wanting just Irish music. There would be Irish music and the great classical compositions that are the birthright of all musicians in every country in the world. One must remember that, to trained interested musicians, music is an international language, in effect. That is a great thing. An orchestra can go to any country in the world and it can, so to speak, be understood. It can cross the language barriers in a way that no other dynamic cultural medium can: pictures, of course, do the same. That would have been a very great thing for Ireland but unfortunately that was not even turned down.

I have copies of telegrams sent by these people and finally, on 19th September, 1966, the last telegram came saying that a reply must be received—and it was not received: no answer was given. In that way, a project which would have meant so much culturally, so much from an advertising point of view in the very best sense for this country, fell to the ground. No explanation has been given as to why that was done. It may have been—I hope it was—financial timidity but that explanation was never put forward.

I might say, in connection with the actual treatment of Mr. Tibor Paul, that the Feis Cheoil held their annual general meeting recently. That body is one of the oldest and most worthy musical organisations in the whole of Ireland and has done incomparable good for Irish music of all sorts. In fact, by winning a prize at a Feis Cheoil, the late John Count McCormack was brought into prominence, and it was first realised that a great artist had appeared in our midst. The Feis Cheoil has done a great many things. At their annual general meeting recently, a lady, who could not be accused in the slightest degree of political bias, described what has happened as barbaric and appalling, and the meeting endorsed here view; the meeting asked that two musicians be put on the Radio Telefís Authority. I now ask the Minister to consider that.

These are some of the difficulties into which the Radio Telefís Authority have got themselves in connection with music and the orchestra. I want to refer now to certain political difficulties. I shall not speak at any great length on this; I shall leave it to others. We have had the picture of a Minister intervening with the Radio Telefís Authority in connection with the news. I cannot quote the actual words and, even if I could, I should not do so, but certainly a Minister made representations to an official of Radio Telefís Éireann and, as a result of those representations, the news was altered. We, in Fine Gael, feel very strongly about that. We believe that not only should justice be done but it should be shown to be done. Not only should Radio Telefís Éireann be as free as is humanly possible from Government interference but it should also, by its very actions, show that it jealously guards the degree of independence it has. The Radio Telefís Éireann Authority does not exist as a tool of the Government. I do not believe they mean to be that, but it is very wrong if they give that impression. Above all, Ministers should be very careful that what they say to that Authority, or to any of the officials at Montrose, does not appear to be said with ministerial authority.

We, in Fine Gael, have put down a motion asking the Taoiseach to accept three things: that no member of the Government, except the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, will have the right to intervene or interfere in the affairs of the RTA; that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs may only exercise that right in writing; and that the Authority publish such directions. In the debate on the Bill setting up the Broadcasting Authority, we pressed very strongly for that. It is a very serious thing that any Minister should put pressure on the Authority and its officials. We are a small country and it is not easy to get away from the eye of the Government. And the people are afraid of it. Now that can work both ways. The pendulum will swing. Nobody has power for all time and the day will come when Fianna Fáil will stand in these benches and will probably be very anxious to ensure that that rigid code of ethics is adhered to by whatever Government may be in power. That is why we have tabled this motion to the Taoiseach. That is why we want to make sure that what we desire is made abundantly clear on this Estimate.

I will finish on a note of farce. Believe it or not, the Fianna Fáil Party have fallen out with the RTA: a headline says that "Fianna Fáil Seeks Assurances on Telefís Éireann's `Division'." The position is very difficult. The Body is in very considerable hot water and the Minister is responsible.

Which Body?

The Radio Telefís Éireann Authority. I am sorry if I have become a bit obscure but it is no wonder that I am obscure in discussing this sorry mess and muddle. What is the answer to it all? The Minister should make various changes in the Authority. He should put some musicians on it. A great poet once said that "The man that hath not music in his soul is fit for treason, stratagems and spoils". It is high time sufficient people were on the Authority to prevent barbarities. From the political point of view, it is vitally important that the Radio Telefís Éireann Authority should be absolutely free, should be shown to be absolutely free, and should act in a completely free and independent manner, with complete freedom from any form of governmental interference.

First, let me comment that the Estimate for the Department which is described as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should, in my opinion, be an Estimate for a Department with a much wider, longer and more high-sounding title. After all, when we added Fisheries to the Department of Agriculture, we called it the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and it used to be called the Department of Lands and Fisheries. The present Minister and his predecessors get credit just for looking after posts and telegraphs and if this were their only worry, they would be reasonably happy men but as the previous speaker mentioned, there are quite a number of rods in pickle for them in the other half of their responsibility, the half not mentioned except in the last two pages of the Minister's brief.

First of all, Let me deal with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs itself. I should like to refer to a number of matters affecting staff which I think should be brought to the Minister's notice here. One of the most important things as far as any employee is concerned is the salary or wage he gets and the amount he can take home. For some extraordinary reason, the employees in the Department find that although their income tax assessment is based on an estimate of the previous year's income, the assessment for each year does not reach the people responsible for making the tax deductions until August or September, with the result that in the last few months of the financial year, quite a substantial slice in income tax is taken off their salaries. This is a stupid arrangement and if there were any reasons for it, it could be accepted, but there is no reason for it because the assessment is made on the previous year's income. Would it be too much to ask to have the deductions started on an estimate from 5th of April each year?

My second point is in regard to a very old chestnut, postmen's uniforms. This has been discussed here for as long as I can remember. I am aware that the trade union representing the postmen, the Post Office Workers' Union, has submitted to the Department a prototype uniform both in cut and type of material, but I understand the Department while they have made some attempt to copy the cut, have made no attempt to copy the material. Somebody got the crazy idea many years ago that the present type of uniform should be used. Deputy Dillon used to refer to the dual purpose cow and this uniform apparently was to be a dual-purpose uniform, which could be used in the summer and in the winter. However, we know that it is usefull neither in summer nor in winter. Postmen in most cases, especially in rural areas, are the public face of the Department; they wear the uniform which shows that they are employees of the Department and surely it is not too much to ask that they be given a decent, respectable uniform? The difference in cost should not be very great. I have seen some of the older people wearing uniforms which must have been issued to them when they were still small boys. Perhaps the Minister might be able to do something about this.

Recently I heard of a postman who was dismissed for not wearing his uniform. However, he got another job, which was not difficult and which was better than a rural postman's job, but his reason for not wearing the uniform was that he hated to be seen out in it. His comment at the time was that he thought the original postman's uniform had been made for some model who must have been pretty badly made because all the uniforms appear to be badly made. They appear to be too short on one side or too short on the other, and they never fit properly. They are bulgy and patchy and should not be issued by a Department of State.

Another point which I should like to raise is in regard to the Central Sorting Office which is being prepared in this city. Could the Minister say when it will be available for staff? I am sure he is aware that many people in the Department are wondering when it will be possible to have it available. There is no point in building it and then leaving it there and the sooner it becomes available the better.

A question which I raised twice before is whether it is proposed to have a dust extractor in this sorting office? The Minister does not need to be told that various types of dust can be raised in a place like this where various types of bags and mail are handled and it may not be the healthiest place in the world if there is no dust extractor. My information is that it was intended to put in an extractor in the new building, but then, for economy reasons, it was taken out and then again it was decided to put it in again. The last I heard was that it is not to be installed. Surely the cost cannot be so high that it required a major decision as to whether or not it should be installed? Surely it should be possible to have a decent type of dust extractor in a modern building? When the new sorting office is in operation, there will be a number of vacant offices in the city, including those in Parnell Street, Amiens Street and College Green, and would the Minister be able to say whether it is proposed to use any of them for the suggested social centre for post office staff? This has been talked about for quite some time and there is no reason why a decision could not be arrived at in regard to this matter. Now is the time to make it.

In regard to the question of the working week, does the Minister see any prospect in the near future of introducing the five-day week for postmen and telephonists? I understand that an agreement in principle was arrived at some time ago but that the thing has been held up because it was found that in a five-day week the hours which the girl telephonists would have to work would be too long. Surely in 1966 we should not have to ask female employees to work extra long hours to get what is generally accepted in industry and outside it, a five-day working week? Perhaps the Minister could give me some idea of what is happening in this regard.

In regard to the Killarney telephone exchange, It was promised that proper facilities would be provided there but apparently nothing has been done and perhaps the Minister could find out if it is proposed to do anything there or if there is only the promise.

In Killarney?

Yes. In regard to the Cahirciveen building, I understand that it is a very dangerous building with scaffolding propped up, and still the staff are working in it. It is all right for the near-bankrupt employer who has no idea where the next shilling is to come from to do that but surely a Department of State should not expect staff to work in dangerous conditions?

There are practically no facilities in the Kilmallock exchange and the rooms which staff are supposed to use for their short break are anything but adequate. This is something into which the Minister might also inquire.

In Dublin, most of the buildings used by post office staff need better ventilation, decoration and painting. Practically all of the buildings throughout the country which are owned by the Department, with a few exceptions, do not seem to have got a coat of paint for some time. Córas Iompair Éireann were supposed to be broke but still they succeeded in painting and decorating their stations and all their property. They even did so in regard to stations they were closing down in a week's time. Those stations were painted and plastered and made presentable.

They are not half as broke as those people.

According to the Minister's statement, he seems to have a few pounds over. He might spend those few pounds in doing some of the things I am suggesting. There apparently is a shortage of cleaning staff. The offices, particularly in Dublin, are not kept as clean as they might be. I do not know whether the Minister would agree with me or not but I imagine if staff were working in properly heated, properly decorated and clean offices the morale would be much higher than if they were asked to work in dingy, dark, dirty conditions which I understand is the present position. The difference between doing things properly and having things done under the conditions I have described is a very small thing in LSD. I am quite sure the Minister would not like this situation to continue. I do not know if he is aware of it but that is why I am making him aware of it.

Deputy Dockrell referred briefly to auxiliary postmen. They are forgotten people as far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are concerned because you still have the position in which those people, no matter what hours they work or how long they are in the employment of the Department, finish up at the end of their days with their insurance cards handed to them, their last week's wages handed to them and they are let go. The Department have no use for them. This follows the pattern which the State seems to have built up over the years. The low paid employees are not entitled to the same consideration as the higher paid employees anywhere in State employment. This is the position no matter what Department of State is concerned. I argued this with different Ministers by way of Parliamentary question over the last number of years.

This was referred to on every Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Is there any reason why the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should not make some attempt to deal with auxiliary postmen in a Christian way? Many of their colleagues are employed by local authorities and are also employed in local factories or anywhere else you like to name. Those people are entitled to a pension and they are entitled to a gratuity but the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are not prepared to give either one or the other to their lowest paid employees. Perhaps the Minister would mark his time in the Department by doing something for those auxiliary postmen.

There is a peculiar system by which auxiliary postmen who work for 30 hours and over for a period of four years are paid sick pay. They must have four years' employment as well as 30 hours per week in order to qualify for sick pay but if the hours drop under 30 they are immediately deprived of their sick pay and entitlement. Maybe the Minister could explain that to me. It takes four years to build up but one day can knock it down. I consider this needs some research. Perhaps the Minister might have a look at it.

Then there is this question of motorisation. Nobody wants to stand in the way of progress. So far it has not been affecting the staff too much because the Department have attempted to regulate it in such a way that it is introduced when areas become vacant. There is, of course, progress because sometimes an area which should be or could be used to combine with a vacant area for motorisation purposes has a man who is not able to drive and for that reason he has either to be removed or the motorisation of the area cannot take place. Would the Minister say if he proposes to do anything about this particular problem? A new redundancy Bill has been introduced. I wonder if this will affect this particular section of people? Perhaps the Minister does not know, but if he does I should like to have his comments on it.

Brief reference has been made to telephonists. I want particularly to talk about night and Sunday telephonists. The Department are building up a sticky problem for themselves here. There is the question of a compulsory ten hours rest which the Minister is probably aware of. Very often in this service people are used because nobody can be got who will work. If this is to be continued—it must be continued in my opinion otherwise the service breaks down—the compulsory ten hours rest cannot be operated.

There may be another way out of this. It applies, I understand, to certain of your drivers. If there is a way out of this I do not know what it is. If there must be a compulsory ten hours rest there would have to be a whole new system built up. I would ask the Minister to have a look at this before it tumbles down on him. We have the Christmas rush coming on and the Minister will find it extremely difficult to get the type of people he requires if he insists on the compulsory ten hours rest.

What alternative is there?

The Minister will have to answer that question. The alternative is that nobody turns up.

If he wants to get a rest somebody must do the work.

At present a person is employed as a driver. He finishes work at 5.30 and he goes on duty with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs at 10 o'clock as a night telephonist, to do a certain number of hours work. If the regulations now laid down by the Department are strictly adhered to, that man cannot go on as a driver the next morning. The Minister can check that and find out how he will get out of it. I am warning him it is building up a considerable amount of trouble for him.

If a man works eight hours a day driving a lorry is it reasonable that he should work a further eight hours out of the 24 as a night telephonist?

He will not be working a further eight hours. If other employers could be persuaded to pay a decent wage that man would not be working at night time.

That is the real answer.

I am afraid it has not been found so. We have heard quite a lot in recent years—Deputy Dockrell just mentioned it here-regarding autonomy in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The Minister steered clear of it. Are we to take it that there is now no suggestion that the Department should become a separate body? It was suggested by one of the Minister's predecessors. It was spoken about quite a lot in this House and outside.

It is now in Great Britain.

We do not like to talk about Great Britain. Perhaps the Minister would comment on this. I know want to speak about the Gyro system. This has been introduced in Great Britain. I asked a question today in regard to it.

What is the Gyro system?

When I finish my little speech, I will hand a document to the Deputy which he can read and it will answer a whole lot.

There is the postal cheque system which means that people can deposit in the Post Office a sum as small as £5 and draw a cheque on it payable to themselves or pay an account on it. There is no interest on the deposit; there is no charge for the service rendered. I assume the secret is that the amount of money lodged can be lodged at a high interest rate and thereby the Post Office make a profit on it. It has been found to be a fool-proof system and has worked in a number of countries in Europe and has recently started in Britain. At least they are trying to introduce the Gyro system.

They have not done it; they will have it in two years' time.

They decided to do it anyway. It is of course the ideal way for people with a small amount to have their affairs handled.

To dissipate their savings.

The Minister is one of those who appears to give the impression that if somebody has a few pounds in the bank he will never have to touch it. Under the present system they have to go to it every week to keep alive. It will not dissipate savings any quicker than they are dissipated at the present time. I wonder, if the Minister has time, would he read the current issue of The Postal Worker. If he reads it——

I have studied it.

——he might be more enthusiastic than he was when answering a question here today.

I have an open mind on it.

I am trying to close it over.

You are not succeeding.

Those who are convinced against their will are few; it applies to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

I had in my hand while waiting to speak one of the account cards of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and I looked at it and found on it: "Printed in the USA". I looked at the one I got a few weeks ago and I found that it, as well, is printed in the USA. Is there any possibility of having these cards, which appear to be a perfectly simple type, printed in Ireland? Is there any reason why we should continue this or had the previous Minister ordered such a great number that the present Minister who stopped the material for a making mailbags coming from Scotland——

I have answered that in the House several times already.

Perhaps the Minister would consider bringing back the contract for producing those cards in this country? This is such a small country that every little helps.

I asked a question some time ago about the Savings Bank and the Minister was adamant at that time that there was no possibility whatever of increasing the rate. I am glad he has since seen the light and has realised that people will not continue to invest in the Post Office when they can get a higher rate elsewhere. I would advise him if he can to increase the amount still further. It would encourage small savers, particularly to invest far more of their money in this country.

There are one or two things in the Minister's opening address about which I am intrigued. Perhaps he might explain these to me. He says on page 6:

The survey referred to in the statement on the Estimate for 1965-66 has shown that there is considerable scope for motorising rural delivery services. During 1965, 122 extra postmen's routes were motorised. Although motorisation cannot offer spectacular savings—at least while delivery is made on a door-to-door basis—it does provide the only prospect...

Does that suggest that there is in the Minister's mind the idea that the present systems of door-to-door delivery of letters is to be altered? The suggestion is in his comment and perhaps he might explain if that is so.

On page 12 he refers to the fact that:

Good progress has been made also with the replacement of manual exchanges by automatic installations.

We do know that people who look after the telephone service in this country must have the patience of Job. Otherwise, they would not be able to put up with the complaints and insults they get from the public.

I want to know if it is a fact that when the automatic exchanges are in installed while there is still some services of a manual nature. which must be given, has the staff been cut down to the stage where there have to be delays of ten to 15 minutes before a call is answered, particularly at night.

Hear, hear.

People have asked about this, and the Minister might look at it and see if there is something wrong with it.

The Minister also said:

The intake of trainees for the skilled force has been raised progressively over a period of years so that we now have 400 youths being trained to provide for the future growth and maintenance of the service as compared with 87 six years ago.

I would like to repeat a question I asked when this was first introduced. The idea is good, but would the Minister be careful to ensure that we do not have more people training than there are working at any particular time? That has happened in other services and it would be too bad if it happened here.

There is not the slightest danger.

I am very glad to hear that, because the Minister's predecessor was not so disposed when he was talking about it.

On the Post Office side I have a query. Some years ago an examination was held for auxiliary postmen who were offered positions as permanent postmen. The Minister might complain that this is an old one, that he has heard it on a number of occasions. However, it is important enough to raise again. One man in a rural town was informed that he had obtained seventh place in the examination. He was a young married man who had been serving in the Post Office for a number of years. He had good character and good health. Some time after, he was notified that for some extraordinary reason he could not be appointed and from that day to this— that is four years ago—he has not been able to find out why he was not appointed. There is some mysterious reason. I am told it is the Appointments Commission who are responsible. The Minister's predecessor told me he could do nothing but he guaranteed to keep the man as an auxiliary so long as he was prepared to stay in the job.

Why cannot a man who was employed as an auxiliary postman and who was doing his job well, up to the necessary standard, become a postman? He got the job but somebody at some stage made a complaint about him. The Minister may not have heard this before. It has been raised with his predecessor and I want to ask the Minister, if it is at all possible, to reconsider this man's case because he has been treated scandalously. This is a young married man living among neighbours all of whom were told he had obtained seventh place but none of whom can be told why he has not got the appointment. It appears as if there is something dark and gloomy in his past which has prevented him from getting it. That is the sort of thing that is happening and the Minister should look at it on the first opportunity he gets.

The Minister, his private secretary, and officials, are aware of the case, as is Deputy Dillon, who first raised it in this House. The man's name is James O'Brien of Monaghan post office. It is a scandalous thing that it should be allowed to continue.

On the other side of the Minister's responsibility, we come to the Radio Telefís Éireann programmes. I do not get very much time to look at the programmes. I believe that the Radio Telefís Éireann people are doing a reasonably good job in most cases. We all have complaints about things we do not like and we feel that things we do like should be on more often, but it is one of those things which none of us can be satisfied with.

There are a number of pretty serious complaints which must be made about the service. Let me start with, first of all, the news in Irish. The news in Irish is given every night. Could the Minister explain if there is any reason why it must be given at such a breakneck speed that those who have not such good Irish and who would like to follow it are unable to do so? There might be a good reason for it. Somebody said to me that it is given in Civil Service Irish which the ordinary Irish speaker would have extreme difficulty in understanding anyway. Some of the readers are excellent. Some of them read the news in such a way that anyone who has any knowledge of the language can follow it but there are a few who seem to think that they must get as much as possible into as short a time as possible.

Is this on television?

Yes. On Radio and Telefís Éireann there seems to be some kind of an arrangement whereby if an important function is being held and important statements are made by political leaders, the statement made by the Government Minister or whoever represents the Government is related usually in full; a few sentences of what the Fine Gael representative says is also related; but, in most cases, the fact that there was a Labour speaker present is not even mentioned. The most recent example is last night down in the south of Ireland.

Deputy Dockrell was bemoaning the fact that the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra were not allowed to go to America in autumn, 1967. I think they are pretty lucky because the Garda Band were offered an almost similar tour and they got the sack. They were thrown out completely. Perhaps the Symphony Orchestra and Tibor Paul have a lot to be grateful for that the same thing did not happen to them. As I suggested to the Minister for Justice, they may buy a few transistors out there and gramophone records. They may think that would be good enough for the people. We could listen to recitals which have been recorded instead of paying for the real orchestra. I am not competent to speak on the same line as Deputy Dockrell on that but I think that a comment should be made.

Last year there was a very popular programme of Irish and popular music on Telefís Éireann on Sunday afternoons. I do not want to do any advertising, lest somebody say that is the reason I raise it. It was so popular it was decided to repeat it. Instead of employing the same group to do another such programme, they repeated the original. Now the fact that the group had changed and some of the people had gone away and got married did not seem to worry them at all. They just repeated it.

They will get royalties on it.

I am not worrying about that. I am worrying about the people who look at it. They would like to see a change.

On 12th October a question was asked here by Deputy Corish of the Taoiseach about the news item which had been interfered with on Telefís Éireann.

Hear, hear.

With the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I shall read the Taoiseach's reply which is at columns 1045 and 1046 of the Official Report of 12th October. In reply to Deputy Corish, the Taoiseach said:

Radio Telefís Éireann was set up by legislation as an instrument of public policy and as such is responsible to the Government. The Government have over-all responsibility for its conduct and especially the obligation to ensure that its programmes do not offend against the public interest or conflict with national policy as defined in legislation.

To this extent the Government reject the view that Radio Telefís Éireann should be, either generally or in regard to its current affairs and news programmes, completely independent of Government supervision. As a public institution supported by public funds and operating under statute, it has the duty, while maintaining impartiality between political Parties, to present programmes which inform the public regarding current affais, to sustain public respect for the institutions of Government and, where appropriate, to asist public understanding of the policies enshrined in legislation enacted by the Oireachtas. The Government will take such action by way of making representations or otherwise as may be necessary to ensure that Radio Telefís Éireann does not deviate from the due performance of this duty.

What, in effect, the Taoiseach said there was that the Government reserve to themselves the right to direct Radio Telefís Éireann as to what may or may not be put over the air. Further on, the Taoiseach admitted that while a Minister had made representations and while he felt that the Government as such or individual members of the Government, to put it in his own words "had the right to make representations" and, by making representation, I assume he meant telling them to take off the programme or put it on, he later admitted that that responsibility lay with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and, of course, he was right because section 31 (1) of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, says:

The Minister may direct the Authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting any particular matter or matter of any particular class, and the Authority shall comply with the direction.

Now there is a very big difference between the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs directing in writing that something may not be put on or should be put on and a Minister of State taking up his telephone, ringing up the Authority and telling them that he does not like a programme and they are to take it off. If there is any doubt about what actually happened, we have the words of the great man himself. Mr. Haughey admitted at column 1083 of the Official Report of 12th October:

As regards Question No. 68, on the date in question I telephoned the Radio Telefís Éireann news division to protect about the manner in which a statement of mine and a contradictory statement from a farmers' organisation were presented in juxtaposition on the 9.45 p.m. television news bulletin. In my statement, made in Dáil Éireann in reply to questions from Deputies, I specifically advised farmers to hold on to their cattle, where possible, until prices improved. This advice was given by me on the basis of an objective appraisal of the situation and with the best interest of the farmers and of the nation in mind. It was accepted by the House. For the RTE News Division to confront this advice with a contradiction from an organisation representing a section of farmers could, in my opinion, only serve to make perplexed farmers more perplexed. I pointed this out to the News Division. I did not ask that the other statement be deleted from television or radio news bulletins.

I asked him.

Does the Minister for Agriculture claim that no outside body has the right to comment on radio or television on statements made by Ministers in this House?

The Minister said:

I made no such claim

I leave it to the House to judge whether or not he made such a claim. In fact if what the Minister for Agriculture succeeded in doing becames the norm, it would simply mean that in future on Budget Days nobody outside this House dare open his mouth, whether he liked or disliked the Budget, as far as the radio or television news items are concerned. It is a scandalous situation that a Minister or any group of Ministers, as the Taoiseach tried to claim, should have the right to say whether or not an item should go on. Of course cracks were made from the Government benches that it was quite a simple matter, that any Deputy or person could make a telephone call to Telefís Éireann. The Minister, I am sure, is quite aware of what would happen if an ordinary citizen dared to do so. He would be darn lucky if he did get through. He would probably be told to go and chase himself, that he had no business interfering with any programme; but if a Minister of State rings up, then some attenion must be given to what he says. Whether or not this is an isolated matter was discussed on a number of occasions but I would like to point out that it is not, that, in fact, we had a previous situation.

Everybody knows that the late Dr. Mackey was mainly responsible for getting the Casement story brought so far that Casement's remains were brought back to this country and arrangements were being made on the night of the funeral to have Dr. Mackey on Telefís Éireann to make a statement. He was warned by the Office of the Minister for External Affairs that if he went on, he was not to refer to the Casement Diaries, that, if he was not prepared to agree, he would not be allowed to go on. It was bad enough for an official of External Affairs to give that instruction but it was subsequently repeated by an official from Telefís Éireann. Despite the fact that Dr. Mackey reluctantly agreed to the terms, when that programme went on, Telefís Éireann succeeded, for four or five minutes while he was speaking, in cutting off the sound completely so that he was not heard even making the comments which he did make. This is the type of thing we object to.

We believe that Radio Telefís Éireann, provided they stay within the limits laid down by the legislation, should not be interfered with by a Minister or anybody else and that if there is a special reason why the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs feels that a particular item should not be allowed to go out, or that somebody should be prevented from appearing, then he should give the direction in writing and allow this House to discuss his decision because that is the only answer to it. I am not blaming the present Minister, because I believe he is a decent man but it is the sort of thing we have happening under the present Government. They believe that they and they alone have the right to say and do what must be done in this country. They believe that they alone are the judges of public morality. I do not think they are and a good many people in this country do not believe they are. They will find that out when the time comes. This sort of taking rights unto themselves and taking away the rights of citizens has got to be stopped and the only way it can be stopped is there in this House.

When the Bill was being discussed here, the then Minister gave a number of assurances. At column 1579 of the Dáil Debates, volume 180, there was a comment made by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Hilliard, which read:

It is true that the Authority will be an autonomous Authority and that the Minister will not have any interference whatsoever with the day-to-day programmes of that Authority...

Surely that is definite enough for anybody? Apparently, in a very short time, that sort of thing has been forgotten. Now the present Minister feels, and the Taoiseach feels, that there is no reason why, if anybody in the Government feels what is going over the air is not what he wants, he cannot ring up and say it should not go on, knowing darn well that Telefís Éireann would then take it off.

There is another item which has caused a certain amount of uneasiness and again, Deputy Dockrell referred to it. Perhaps I am more deeply involved here because I am a Party Whip. I refer to the monthly television programmes called "Division" and the weekly programme called "The Politicians". I have no doubt in my mind as to the arrangements about the programme "Division". Telefís Éireann had the complete right to select whom they wanted on that programme. The only stipulation laid down was that they must inform the Party Whip if a member of a Party was being asked. The individual then had the right to refuse or not and the Party Whips would have the decision as to whether or not they would allow the person to go on, as to whether or not they felt it would be in the interests of the Party to allow him to do so. There was no suggestion at any time that there would be not be a discussion face to face, or that a politician and an ordinary individual would not go on the same programme. Still, we had Fianna Fáil sulking like a child because of the fact that on the first programme the person who was going on was the Minister for Agriculture with somebody he apparently considered to be his arch enemy, the President of the NFA. It is stupid in the extreme that a Government should adopt an attitude like that. It is a question of "If you do not play according to our rules, we will not play at all." Indeed it seems the Government have gone into their second childhood. The position is that Telefís Éireann have gone on without the Fianna Fáil Party on that particular programme.

I am just wondering how long will this last. Will the Government pull something else out of the bag behind backs and force Telefís Éireann to cancel another programme? All of us will be very interested to watch what happens within the next few weeks. Anybody looking at the programme "The Politicians" the other night must have the view I took, that it took three of the Fianna Fáil Party, including a Minister, to try to outtalk a lady member of the Labour Party. The Government must not have a very high opinion of the abilities of their members, as they insisted they would not go on unless they had three representatives.

It was three Opposition—three each—that is agreed. Deputy James Tully was with me when that was agreed and I stood out for that.

I was not with the Minister when that was agreed because he was not a Whip when this programme was agreed to.

I was originally when that proportion was agreed.

This programme "The Politicians" has gone on. There was an awful difference between the last one and this one. I agreed, under protest, that we would go on because we were not, like Fianna Fáil, afraid, even though there was only one of our Party being allowed on to three of the Government Party. Anyone who looked at the programme the other night must have noticed how stupid it looked with the Minister for Education and two fellows holding up his coat tails, as it were, when he stood up to talk, because they were not able to do very much more.

How many does the Deputy want on?

I believe there should be equal representation.

Is three against three equal representation?

There are three different Parties, three separate Parties in the House. Maybe the Deputy did not notice that.

I can count; two and one are three.

The Deputy is coming on if he can count two and one. The position is that there are three Fianna Fáil members, two Fine Gael members and one Labour member on that programme. We continue to go on, on that basis. The point I want to make is that this is stupid because Fianna Fáil will go on only when they have a majority on a programme, and they will not go on another programme where they are allowed only one person against people from outside the House. They will not play. If the game is not according to their rules, they will not play.

They had the right chairman.

We will leave the chairman out of it. He is the person who is agreed upon, and that is it. So far as the general programmes are concerned, and particularly the sporting programmes, a good job is being done. Quite a number of the programmes are very good.

Reference has been made to the arrangements in connection with Ballymun. Perhaps the Minister would explain if he has now come to the conclusion that it should be possible to allow Irish citizens who pay licences to receive another station for which they do not pay any licence. There has been an objection to that so far. Attempts have been made to cut out a number of unsightly aerials in our cities, towns and villages, by having what is described as piped television, but the Minister's predecessor turned his face completely against it and said it could not be allowed in any circumstances. That is bad enough, but the Minister must be aware that there have been complaints that Telefís Éireann have been successful in doing what is known in other countries as jamming foreign stations. There is no reason why that should continue. I complained about this to the Department on a number of occasions, particularly in regard to the town of Trim. Is there any reason why the people of Trim who pay a licence to Telefís Éireann should be forced to look at Telefís Éireann all the time? They cannot get BBC or UTV because of jamming by Telefís Éireann of other programmes.

That is not done deliberately.

If it is not, I do not know how it happens that any time a complaint is made, it gets worse instead of better. I asked a Parliamentary Question about this and I was told by the Minister's predecessor on two occasions that the Government did not agree that there was any necessity for viewing programmes other than those of Telefís Éireann.

They were not talking Irish.

UTV have been successful in putting out good Irish programmes from time to time. I do not see why there should be any interference with other stations.

The Deputy is a terribly simple fellow.

The Minister is a terribly simple fellow himself when it suits him, but this is one occasion on which that type of soft answer will not turn away the warth of the people affected. I have already complained to the Department about this on a number of occasions but I found there was no use in continuing to do so. Perhaps the Minister might be able to do something about it.

We heard a lot about the success that has been achieved in developing the telephone service. The Post Office are doing a pretty good job outside the country, but it is too bad that for some extraordinary reason we still get complaints about a man who built a house six months ago getting a phone connected while his neighbour who has been waiting for six years still has not succeeded in getting one. Even with the system whereby the Department ask for a down payment before the connection is made, we still get those complaints. I asked the Minister about one or two of these cases and he gave me a fairly plausible reply which was probably accurate.

He should see to it that people get a telephone connection according to where they appear on the order of priorities, but in the case of keymen in factories, doctors and such people, where the need for connection is urgent an exception should be made. It does appear from the complaints I get from time to time that some people are able to get a phone fairly quickly while others have to wait for long periods. In this year it is not too much to ask that people who have been on a waiting list for four or five years should no longer have to wait. Deputy Dockrell made the point that this is one of the paying services and, that being so, any money which is required for this service should be obtained and spent. A few years ago the Minister's predecessor was looking for £30 million to carry out urgent work over a matter of four or five years. I notice in the Minister's statement that something around £27 million has been spent. We seem to have a fairly good cross-Channel service, but I wonder would it be better if we tried to improve the service given to those who are seeking it in this country before we attempt to develop our cross-Channel service any further.

Telegrams are becoming a thing of the past because it is so easy to phone a message rather than send a telegram. The last increase in the telegram charges sounded their deathknell because it is now too expensive to use the telegrame service. If we could reach the stage where the 13,000 who are now awaiting the telephone service could be given that service, we would be coming near the end of the demand.

There are new ones comming in every day.

I quite appreciate that. If there were not, the 10,000 which were needed last year would not have grown to 13,000 this year, despite the fact that 2,000 or 3,000 have been provided during the year.

I will give the figures.

There should be a big push to try to clear off the existing demand so that we could say that the demand for telephones at least had been dealt with.

Deputy Dockrell inferred that the administration of Telefís Éireann was fit for treason, stratagems and spoils. Be that as it may, I refuse to believe that Telefís Éireann would deliberately jam outside programmes in the town of Trim. If Deputy Tully is right when he says outside programmes have been deliberately jammed, to my mind that would disclose a very serious state of affairs and I think it behoves the Minister to tell us exactly what the policy is in this matter. I may be a bit naíve, of course: I probably am.

This debate can range over a wide variety of topics. I wish to refer to a small number only and I will not detain the House very long. I notice that the Minister referred to the new closing time of 5.30 p.m. in sub-post offices in Dublin and said that was done on the recommendation of the Commission of Inquiry into the Sub-Post Office System. I confess that I had not previously heard of this Commission and I wonder if business people were represented on it. I doubt it very much because I have had some personal experience——

They were very very well represented on that Commission.

The Chamber of Commerce or some such body?

No, practical business people.

Perhaps they were unable to forsee the effects of it but one effect was a material deterioration of the postal service in the Dublin area for professional and business people who were in the habit, at the usual office closing time of five minutes to six, of posting packets. I refer particularly to legal documents and the sort of thing that will not fit easily into letter boxes. It seems that quite near this House, in the Baggot Street area, in which there are many business and professional offices, the post office closes at 5.30 p.m. and if something is posted in the outside letter box, it will be collected up to 8 or 9 or 10 O'clock but if it is a bulky packet of, say, legal documents it is not collected. I think that is because the collection heretofore had been at six o'clock, or about then, and now these suboffices are closed and the packets not collected. That is a material deterioration in postal services.

We have heard several complaints, some of which gave rise to questions here, of letters being posted in England or parts of Ireland arriving in Dublin later than was customary in the past. That is not good business. At a time when Ministers are urging higher productivity, we must improve the efficiency of the postal service, not retard it. While I am all for shorter working hours, the five-day week and 5.30 p.m. closing, it is very important that essential services such as are provided by the Post Office should not have their efficiency retarded by improvements of the kind mentioned. This is a small point but well worth looking into.

There are many parts of Dublin where, for one reason or another, there are considerable delays in getting new telephone connections. The Minister has indicated that he is doing all he can to rectify that situation and that it takes time. I know of one area about which I was in touch with the Minister recently—in passing, I want to thank the Minister for his unfailing courtesy to members of the House and for the courtesy of his staff when we find it necessary to make representations on small matters-and in which there are many applicants for telephones who have not yet been connected but who will be connected in the next six months or so. This is a new residential scheme in the Sutton area.

Nowadays the telephone has become such an essential amenity that it is very important in these areas to provide a public kiosk to tide over the residents while there is no telephone in the area. I understand that even in the absence of underground cables, a kiosk can be connected by overhead cables, admittedly at some considerable expenses but a justifiable expenses. The yardstick of the profitability of the kiosk related to its expected takings is not a fair one to apply at all times. The telephone is so essential for communicating with priests, doctors, fire brigades, and so on and has become so much part of the daily life of everybody that it seems unsound to apply that commercial principle which I know is applied by the Minister in considering whether or not a telephone kiosk should be erected: is it going to pay its way? There are times when that criterion must and should be departed from.

I do not go so far as to suggest that the case put to me recently and which I passed on to the Minister regarding the cliffs at Howth is completely valid. Somebody said that there were so many tragedies there and the nearest telephone was almost a mile away that there should be a public kiosk for use in emergency. Nevertheless, there is something in that point of view. I re-echo the plea of Deputy Tully regarding the frustration and annoyance so many people experience when dialling the exchange or "trunks". I sometimes think it would be far better to get an engaged tone and not have to hold on indefinitely or perhaps hang up after five minutes waiting in despair and frustration. This is something which causes immense annoyance and frustration and if it is a phenomenon due to inadequate staff, that can be readily rectified by the Minister.

I do not wish to refer at any length to the RTE Authority because it has been referred to already and will, I am sure, be referred to at considerable length later in the debate. I was interested to see in the papers a few days ago that a distinguished cleric expressed his dismay at the increasing advertising of drink on television and its effects on young people. This is something that had occurred to me more than once. Television has a most potent influence on viewers, particularly on those with unformed or immature minds and anybody who takes a pint of stout, as I do, and visits Dublin's pubs cannot but be struck and indeed shocked by the trend which has manifested itself in recent years of increased drinking by young people. I am convinced that, to some extent. the influence of television advertisements is responsible for that and I deplore it.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 26th October, 1966.
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