It is not inconsiderable. The Minister referred to skippers who will be encouraged to invest in larger vessels and Irish companies which will also be encouraged to operate such vessels as part of a combined fishing, processing and marketing activity. I should be glad if the Minister would indicate whether this will affect the livelihood, the security and the commitments entered into by skippers who have bought their own boats. What will be the relative position of the skippers who own their own boats or who have got grants from An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and loans to purchase boats and who are now paying back those loans at the interest rates prevailing? What will their position be in a port in which Irish companies may be operating in a combined fishing, processing and marketing arrangement? What security will the skippers and their crews have and what guarantee will they have of getting a reasonable price for the fish they catch? It appears to me we will have a kind of extension into the fishing industry of the supermarket, except that the companies with the finance, the boats and the facilities to fish, to process and to market their goods will have a built-in advantage as against the skipper who has to rely on either the auctioneer or the co-operative to dispose of his catch. Such skippers and their crews, possibly operating on a share basis, will be at a disadvantage.
There appears to be in the mind of the Minister some idea that development on these lines might very well prejudice the position of those at present engaged in the fishing industry because he gives an assurance to the small fisherman in the following terms:
Lest there should be any misapprehension about the effects on the smaller fisherman by the operation of the larger vessels envisaged, I want to make it clear that these larger vessels would operate mainly to provide the necessary raw material on a regular basis for the efficient operation of our processing factories, the products of which would be largely for export.
The vessels referred to are vessels up to 90 feet, whereas the earlier reference is to vessels around 70 feet, and it is not quite clear whether the Department can, in fact, order things in such a way as to secure that the livelihood of those in the industry at present and those whom it is desired to attract to the industry will be reasonably protected.
Reference has been made also to distribution in the Irish market. I quote:
Fish distribution in the Irish market will be rationalised so that fish is distributed efficiently from port to consumer.
It is not so many years since we had an organisation, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, engaged to some extent in endeavouring to organise, as part of their function, the rational distribution of fish. A decision was made, however, by the Department to remove the buying and marketing of fish from Bord Iascaigh Mhara completely and that Bord Iascaigh Mhara would operate only as a development authority. We are told by the Minister, in his introductory speech, that fish distribution will be rationalised so that fish can be distributed efficiently from the ports to the consumers. He goes on to say:
The programme also aims at greater involvement by fishermen's co-operatives in the marketing of their products thus ensuring that the primary producer will get a greater share of the end price.
Those are excellent sentiments. It is an excellent sentiment to indicate that the primary producer, in the case of the fish industry in particular, should get a satisfactory price for the goods he produces. It is an excellent suggestion that those who work in the industry should get a reasonable living therefrom. Although not stated here, it would be excellent to try to ensure that the Irish consumer, the ordinary family in the country, is able to secure fish at reasonable prices. But it is not quite clear how it is proposed to do these things. Certainly the Minister does not appear to make it clear. After taking away from Bord Iascaigh Mhara the responsibility for marketing or distribution, the Minister now says this Board will operate on the basis of private enterprise but will be rationalised.
I think every Deputy would subscribe to the view that co-operative systems are valuable, certainly, co-operatives based on the fish industry which would secure for the fishermen reasonable returns for the work and risk in which they are involved, and which would secure fish for consumers at a reasonable price. But I understand that in recent weeks one co-operative undertaking established for that purpose went bankrupt and was making appeals to either the Department or Bord Iascaigh Mhara for some financial assistance, because, although they had been operating for some time, they were operating against private enterprise and went bankrupt.
I would be interested if, under the heading "Development Programme", the Minister would indicate how one can operate a private enterprise economy and, at the same time, rationalise fish distribution. Is it to be done by an organisation which would handle all marketing and distribution of fish? Evidently not; Bord Iascaigh Mhara were doing that, to some extent, and objections were lodged by private enterprise—those engaged in the marketing and selling of the fish —and, to some extent, by the fishermen themselves. I would be interested to know if there is an answer to this problem. In relation to the home market consumption of fish, we are told it may well be that the 13 per cent increase in the domestic consumption from 1965 to date may have arisen because the ordinary consumer in the city cannot buy meat and, while fish is dear, meat has become so expensive the ordinary housewife has to look around in desperation to try to spread her purchases.
The reference to publicising of the nutritional value of fish is to be commended, as are the efforts of those concerned, even though it may well be to their own financial advantage. I refer to those engaged in the various operations such as cooking demonstrations et cetera, because we are all agreed upon the food value of fish. I think we are all agreed that for a country, surrounded on all sides by water, reasonable protection should be given to the inshore fisheries by the authorities and, in this connection, what is permitted to happen off the coast of this country is a disgrace. The sea fishing industry is of value from the point of view of the possibility it affords of increasing our exports, from the point of view of the possibility it should afford for the provision of abundant supplies of fish for our people at reasonable prices.
Repeatedly, we have had a situation where the fish off the shores of our country are being hijacked by trawlers from other countries while we have but one corvette which goes chasing its tail around the place, and, by the time it arrives anywhere, the seas are fished clean and the trawlers are away, and we can then only send protests. If we are to have expenditure, surely an expenditure which would protect an industry like the fishing industry and the livelihood of those engaged in it should be supported in this House and the necessary steps taken? We do not even have helicopters to try to follow the movement of foreign trawler fleets around our coastline : Spanish, Dutch and others all fish off the Irish coast. But let some of the Irish fishing fleets go near the coast of France or Spain—I know that if they go near Spain, they will end up in some jail and be there for quite a long time.
I should like to refer very briefly to the question of the pollution of our rivers. Inland fishing, fishing for salmon and trout, is increasingly an attraction on our rivers and lakes. Other people who engage in coarse fishing are of very great importance, even of indirect importance, because of their value to our tourist industry. While this value is increasing year by year, we appear to be taking no steps to prevent the increasing pollution of our rivers and lakes.
I will not talk about salmon disease because I know very little about it. It is becoming clearer all the time, particularly in relation to rivers leading into estuaries on which our towns and cities are situated that very little effort is being made to deal with pollution. If I may be permitted to mention it, we have canals which, if stocked with coarse fish, would prove a tremendous attraction to anglers from across the water and from various parts of Europe. Deputies who have had more opportunities than I to visit various European countries will be aware that in Holland, Belgium, France and Italy, there is a tremendous interest in coarse fishing. I do not know whether they ever catch anything in their canals and rivers, but their is a tremendous interest in coarse fishing, and it is very popular in Britain.
This may sound almost like high treason to the man who fishes for salmon or trout, but the people who go in for coarse fishing are people who, if they were attracted over here for coarse fishing on our rivers, lakes and canals, would spend money, because they would be satisfied with reasonable accommodation, would stay in the local small hotels, buy food and have their entertainment while on holiday. They are the people who save their money for a week or a fortnight's holiday. They like to spend their money and go home with nothing in their pockets. They would leave their money here. I would urge that under this heading there should be greater effort to deal with the problem of pollution and to see what can be done to cultivate coarse fishing in our canals. We have one coming right into the city of Dublin which would possibly in its further reaches be ideal for that purpose.
I will close on the note on which I opened. Here we have an Estimate which, by our own decision, is almost nine months overdue. Whatever we may say about the matters contained in this Estimate, at the end of the discussion the House will be asked to approve it. Already threequarters of the money in the Estimate has been spent. We are beginning to look childish to the public: "Do you approve of something you have done in advance?" I wonder how far that procedure would go in the local authorities? Many Deputies are members of local authorities. During the months of February and March, they engage in bitter discussions about the money that will be spent during the following year under all headings. What kind of an example do we give them? We make our comments on the Estimate and at the end of the discussion, whether we offer criticism or praise, we will say "Tá" or "Níl", or we may even go into the division lobbies. It is a bit Gilbertian to say the least of it to go into the division lobbies to vote on an Estimate when, in fact, the bulk of the money has already been spent.
