A scheme for redundancy payments was outlined in the Minister's brief. For quite a considerable time, this word "redundancy" has been used as a whipping post to terrify workers, just as the word "automation" was similarly used some time ago. It is an unfortunate situation when there is a constructive approach to deal with a situation that may exist in the future. The resettlement and retraining proposals are all intended to benefit workers and to protect them, and references to redundancy are used in order to try to create in the minds of workers the idea that in years to come there must be wholesale redundancy. It is a very serious matter and it should be treated in a very serious manner.
The question of the retraining of workers and the upgrading of workers has become a burning question and I hope that those who are now vocal in the matter of whipping up interest in this particular matter in order to disturb the minds of the workers will fall into line with schemes for upgrading skills. The upgrading of skills, from unskilled to semi-skilled, would not seem to involve any great problem but there may be problems in regard to upgrading the semi-skilled. There may be a need for some flexibility in regard to the demarcation line and that may become an important issue in the future. It will be up to the trade union movement to ensure that this matter is solved to the benefit of the workers and to ensure that there will be no lack of effort on their part to meet the situation by having this flexibility. I have grave doubts that this question of demarcation will not become a factor because I have heard it said that in the upgrading of skills, from the semi-skilled to the skilled, there will be serious disruption. That has been threatened by a person of no small standing in the industrial world.
I trust that this position will be examined in a realistic manner so that this disruption will not take place. There is no doubt that the need in the future will be for skilled labour and this in itself means that this upgrading may cause some disruption. As I said, it is unfortunate that the term should be used as a whipping post and I hope that as time goes on, we will realise the seriousness of the situation and the efforts which are being made to protect the workers through retraining schemes for people who become redundant for one reason or another. The matter is being tackled in a very serious way by the Minister and his Department. As we know, free trade will expose us to severe industrial competition and in order to succeed, we must have greater and better production. This cannot be produced by additional effort alone, but by greater skill.
Another term which has been used is "greater productive effort" and the workers are led to believe that they must work harder in order to get more. That is not so. If the industrialists equip themselves to meet the new and pressing needs with such things as better equipment and machinery and if the workers equip themselves with new and better "know-how", the situation can be met and we can produce more without greater effort on the part of the individual. Many men at present are working to their capacity and they cannot make a greater effort, certainly in a manual job.
The question of training is an important one and one on which we must have complete agreement. We must develop our resources as fully as does any other country. Our workers are just as competent as those in Britain, America or elsewhere and they are sought after by other countries. We should protect them and ensure that they get the same opportunities here and that no obstacles are placed in their way. The question of co-operation rests here to a great degree with management. There is need for a greater effort because many managements have failed to avail of the State services which are available in order to equip themselves to meet the new developing situation. They like to weep instead but they will have to equip themselves for the future. In many spheres, management has not been too effective in the past and in the industrial field, many people were put in merely to soak up profits. We must ensure that the best possible personnel are available for the job in order to ensure that industry will move in the direction in which we want it to move, to meet outside competition.
The question of skilled personnel managers is one that must receive serious consideration. Skilled personnel managers are required to deal with labour problems. As we know, good relations are a keynote today and a first necessity if we are to meet outside competition, increase the number of jobs available and improve the effectiveness of our productive effort and of our industries. In the Minister's statement, Government policy is clearly laid down, that we must raise production and increase employment. These ends can be achieved only by proper co-operation between the trade unions, workers and management. We may fail from time to time in some sectors but we have a collective responsibility, and we as public representatives have also responsibility, to mould the minds of the people in a true and honest way and not to try to terrify them as some Members of this House have done in the not too distant past and probably continue to do.
Listening here today to one or two of them, one can see that the trend is still there. It is unfortunate that it is there and the sooner we get down to working as one unit for the good of the nation rather than for sectional interests the better, because only by doing that can we bring about a solution to the problem and bring about the goodwill which is necessary to achieve the objectives of the Government and the nation, that is, to raise production and increase employment.
The day is now gone when the big boss could say: "I am the boss; I hire and fire." If that is the only way management can bring it home to the men that they are in charge, it means management are ineffective. I am sure we can and will develop the brains of our people to meet this new and everincreasing need. The welfare of the workers will always be in the forefront of the minds of the Minister for Labour and the Government. We have always paid attention to the problems and needs of the workers. This is proved by all the aids we have provided for them. I can understand the disappointment of some members of the Opposition that, in addition to all the aids of the past, such as holidays with pay, proper conditions of employment, industrial relations Acts and so on to give the workers the conditions they deserve, this Government are now setting out in clear terms their desire to see training and retraining schemes to meet the new situation.
Earlier today there were one or two interruptions about automation and redundancy which I should like to answer. It did not take automation to cause redundancy when some of the people who interrupted were in power. The workers can be assured that on no occasion will we cause redundancy by selling the various means to keep people in employment.
The question of trade unions has often been mentioned here. I am a trade unionist. I was a shop steward for 15 years and a member of the executive council of a union. I understand the workings of unions, their desires, needs and defects. We all have our defects. Listening to some of their spokesmen, one would think unions had no defects, that all their defects had been eliminated. There are many efficient trade union leaders who down through the years have tackled problems with commonsense and understanding. The prolonged period of industrial stability is an indication of the excellence of their work. But, like every other sector of the community, a union has its weak points.
I would appeal to the union members who have spoken to set their own house in order. I want to see that done in order to ensure that the workers will have sound representation in discussions with employers. In the past, some of the industrial unrest here was caused because the union representatives were inefficient, and the slick employers' representatives were able to get an agreement which, when analysed later, showed the workers to be losing instead of gaining. Some unions have established colleges to equip their leaders to meet this new situation in which the employer puts everything into the field to ensure his point gets across in an effective manner. My hope is that we will have properly trained union representatives to meet this situation.
Sometimes strikes are called as a vote of no confidence in trade union leaders who have discussed a problem and brought it to what they believe is an agreed settlement. From time to time, a trade union official and a politician are the most hated people in the country by the public and even by their own members when there is a big issue at stake. Sometimes the worker is unsympathetic towards a conscientious trade union official doing his job in a realistic way and endeavouring to give good advice. The public are also unsympathetic to a Government meeting their responsibilities in full in order to ensure the common good and not just a sectional good.
I am glad to see the unions moving in this direction and having these seminars, condemned by Deputy M. O'Leary. Valuable information is imparted at these seminars. Union officials have there the benefit of the experience of older officials who have met and dealt with the slick employers' representatives. These seminars have been very successful and will continue to be. Many unions have not the resources to establish colleges such as those established by one or two unions. The seminar is the next best thing. I am told by trade union officials that those who attend them get a comprehensive picture of how the employers' representatives operate.
The question of strikes was mentioned. We all condemn wildcat unofficial strikes. Nevertheless, there are occasions when they must be treated with understanding. Generally speaking, this type of strike starts on the spur of the moment for some given reason. It is not like the case where prolonged negotiations break down. Usually it is a question of ineffective control by unions or management. Often it is a question of a shop steward assuming responsibilities he has not got. Unions should educate shop stewards into some uniformity of thinking. It varies from union to union. Sometimes they think they are the general secretary rather than the shop steward. On many occasions they have put higher union officials into deep water and much time is lost trying to eliminate the problem. Sometimes this type of strike is condemned out of hand without any assessment of the situation.
On one or two occasions I was concerned with stoppages of this nature. After careful examination it became clear that they were being hoodwinked or that there was a grave injustice that could only be brought to light by an immediate stoppage. We hope these stoppages will not happen and that the development of worker-management relations will continue to the point of eliminating them. These things never occur on major wage problems which are negotiated at a higher level. It is generally on a question of concessions and even where the term is written into an agreement, these concessions may be withdrawn at a moment's notice.
The treatment of workers as digits in any large industrial concern should be examined. It is a necessary first step that a man should be regarded as a man. It is very depressing for a man to hear called out: "No. 40, report to the office"; or "No. 35, come for your pay now." That is very degrading and the sooner we get away from it the better. It may have been all right in the past but we have now reached the stage when the dignity of man should be fully recognised by the management.
We all recognise the right to strike as a right that must be qualified by such factors as family and personal necessity and duty to the community. Any withdrawal of labour must be conditioned by social principles. If that is done and all factors taken into consideration before arriving at a decision to strike, we shall have fully complied with our responsibilities. Many strikes have been unnecessary and unjustified and have brought nothing but misery and poverty to the lower-paid workers. As in many other cases the lower-paid worker is used as a catspaw. Those who really suffer by a strike are those who can least afford it.
It has been said that managing directors do not suffer financially as a result of a strike. That is quite right. We look forward to the day when we can eliminate all strikes and still meet justifiable claims. In this enlightened age, with more enlightened managements and unions, we should be able to reach that situation, especially when statistics, progress reports and planning programmes are available to both employers and workers. Nevertheless, the right to strike exists and we recognise it, and all the consequences of a strike, just as we recognise collective bargaining which is the keystone of our industrial relations and must so remain. If there is a failure to reach agreement between managements and unions to eliminate stoppages or major disruptions in industrial output and if a solution can be found, we shall have gone a long way towards meeting everybody's desires.
There is another problem that strikes me as a trade unionist, that is, the question of workers' councils. These are a very good institution and should be developed but they are often very cumbersome with quite a number of unions, anything from four to ten or even 21, whatever number is in CIE. Before the small grievance of the workers can be rectified, a very long period must elapse. This causes dissatisfaction not only to the workers concerned but to other workers where a number of unions are involved. It may help in some cases to have members of a number of unions acting together but generally it is the smaller problems that it is necessary to eliminate. If we can succeed in eliminating these smaller grievances, we shall have different personnel dealing with the bigger problems on a wider basis and these will be met with greater understanding.
Once again, I should like to assure the Minister that his efforts are being noted by responsible people, as also are the efforts of the Government, to meet the present situation with new services such as replacement service and guidance facilities that will be available to the schools. It is of great importance that we should start at that level. That will represent a realistic approach in catering for the future of our young people and solving some of their problems. At present people are left very much on their own in making up their minds and as a result those with special aptitudes, capable of reaching great heights, are unable to realise their potentialities for want of these services. These guidance facilities should be examined in great detail.
The manpower forecasting service and the other services available are being appreciated as an addition to the already long line of aids to workers and measures to ensure that workers get necessary protection. I ask the trade union movement to examine carefully the question of flexibility. This is something that is desirable and necessary and something that should be paid for as it is in some cases where a flexibility allowance is made because of the overlapping of work, rather than have this very strict line of demarcation.
Trainee systems have been introduced very effectively at the Verolme works in Cork and these are very satisfactory and work with the blessing of the unions. In the many new industries that I hope will be established in different fields from those already existing, I trust that trainee systems will be developed so that the question of demarcation with the skilled crafts may be averted. It was recently said that any suggestion of upgrading semi-skilled to skilled, or indeed any upgrading which will bring such workers within reasonable distance of skilled workers, will meet serious opposition. It will be a bad day if we do not work out a system of flexibility or demarcation allowances, or whatever type of payment will be given for this type of infringement.
One of the problems is that, where there is flexibility, where a number of unions or crafts are concerned, perhaps ten or 15, the bigger crafts tend to obliterate the smaller groups in a matter of time. I know their survival is at stake and both sides should get down to devising a system which would absorb both classes into a unit and which would give proper compensation for any infringement of rights.
Many other factors have been mentioned in the debate and in the discussions and many people have been misquoted. I sympathise with the Minister when I hear many members of the Opposition misquote him and use various terms in order to try to terrify others. I do not believe they will fool the great majority of the people but they will certainly fool some of them, as they did before. I would appeal to Deputies not to inject any cloud of suspicion into this discussion such as has already been injected into it. By so doing, they have done a bad day's work for themselves. I am quite sure that, in a few months' time or maybe in a year's time, they will come back here and probably be very sorry for some of the contributions that have been made.
Once again, the trade unionists, at large, welcome any type of legislation that will protect them in their hour of need, in redundancy or in unemployment. They welcome facilities for the attainment of skills they had not before. The placement service will assist them in moving from job to job and to get other employment. These are all steps forward in addition to a very large line of protections and aids that have been given to workers by Fianna Fáil throughout the years.
