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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Apr 1967

Vol. 228 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 4—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance).

(South Tipperary): I merely rise to terminate a few points I was about to make last evening when the House adjourned. I was dealing with what our farming community may hope to get from the Budget. None of us can, I suppose, look a gift horse in the mouth. Some concessions have been given. The derating concession under £20 valuation will be welcomed by every farmer in the country. However, and let me be clear about it, I understand that the average income from this concession will amount to £3 17s 6d. When we consider the catastrophic drop in cattle prices over the past year, it is a very poor kind of animal indeed that has not lost two or three times that amount of money. So that, by and large, this concession does not go very far to compensate even the smallest farmer for the drop which occurred last year.

For a considerable time, probably aggravated by conditions last year, there has been unrest in our agricultural society. Whether they are the creamery milk suppliers, the NFA, or any form of organisation, or farmers individually, there is a general expression of dissatisfaction. The traditional gap between the incomes of agricultural workers and labourers as a class. who are the lowest paid members of our community, and other sections of our society has widened. The situation last year has, unfortunately, aggravated the situation and it has culminated in certain activities outside this House of one organisation having results to the knowledge of us all.

There is another society which, fortunately, most of us are unacquainted with. Many years ago a monolithic party decided they would harness the activities of a large section of the community and the farmers were incorporated in it. Each farmer was ordered to submit to the State a certain prearranged portion of his products. The whole country was included and the people were poor. Naturally, they tried, I presume, to sequestrate a little corn, enough to keep body and soul together but the State requested its pound of flesh.

Ten million kulaks were killed in Russia and in later years when a speaker, Mr. Churchill, in the Kremlin said to Mr. Stalin: "What about the Kulaks", Stalin smiled and said: "They were not particularly popular, were they?" Ten million kulaks were killed but it made Communism safe in Russia.

It does not seem to me that this is relevant to the debate.

(South Tipperary): To make Ireland safe for a Communist Government here? When I was coming to the Dáil a few days ago. I saw notices in the paper and I saw placards——

I cannot allow this discussion to proceed. The Deputy knows very well that I ruled this matter out of order yesterday. He is endeavouring to get in by a side route. I ruled it out directly yesterday.

(South Tipperary): This is a matter of extreme importance to the country at the present time.

We are discussing the Financial Resolution. What is relevant to it may be discussed. No matter how important, any matter which is not relevant to the matter in the House is not to be discussed. I ruled yesterday that this matter was not relevant to the matter before the House. I rule now that the Deputy is irrelevant to the matter before the House and he will please cease.

(South Tipperary): I am trying to finalise, if you understand, Sir.

I understand perfectly well. I am ruling that the matter the Deputy is endeavouring to discuss is not relevant to the matter before the House. He has given a clear indication of it in his introduction.

(South Tipperary): I have given an indication of a matter of extreme importance to the country.

It may be a matter of extreme importance and there are all sorts of matters of extreme importance to the country, but they are not relevant to the matter before the House. The Deputy will please cease or I will have to take stronger action.

It affects the yield of over-estimation we are discussing here.

The Deputy knows this is not relevant to the matter before the House.

(South Tipperary): I am informed that the present crisis has been temporarily resolved.

If the Deputy will not cease discussing this matter, I will have to ask him to resume his seat.

(South Tipperary): A Cheann Comhairle——

I will not allow the Deputy to argue with the Chair. I am ruling finally that the matter the Deputy is discussing is out of order. I am asking the Deputy now to resume his seat or I will have to report him to the House.

(South Tipperary): I am accusing the Taoiseach of being deliberately provocative and thereby precipitating another crisis as between the farmers' organisation and the Government, when everybody knew this thing could have been resolved by tomorrow.

I will have to report the Deputy; I will ask him to leave the House.

(South Tipperary): I can see you are tired of my company. With all due respect, I beg to take my leave and I hope to see you later.

Deputy P. Hogan (South Tipperary) withdrew from the Chamber.

Obviously, certain Members were not ready to go on. However, there are just a few comments I wish to make on this year's Budget. It has been a good Budget, and it has been a good Budget because of the sensible policies followed by the Government during the difficulties experienced last year. Unfortunately, you cannot please everyone. If it is a severe Budget, then the Government are charged with being unnecessarily harsh, that they are deliberately doing it to hurt the people; if it is an easy Budget, they are accused of being dishonest. Indeed, the extreme measures which had to be taken last year—and which were taken by the Government —showed that at all times they have acted with courage and honesty when it was necessary to introduce harsh measures. The fact that the Government did not overstress or understress the need for action but, in other words, developed their policies along the correct lines, helped very much in keeping the economy fairly stable. There was no great loss of employment, which might have followed had the Government cut back on their capital programme. The amount of money spent on the capital programme kept pace with the year before and, in many instances, exceeded it.

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that there are many people in this country who engage in destructive criticism, who in no way offer constructive criticism. There has been a lot of talk about the housing situation, and the amount of money spent on housing. Unfortunately, one of the causes of the present housing situation in Dublin is the fact that there are many people living in county council and corporation houses who should not be living there, people for whom these houses were never designed, people who have prospered.

I have seen very large cars parked outside some of these corporation houses and I know that if these people did the right thing, that is, bought their own houses, as they could well afford to do because of the vast incomes coming in to them, many of the people living in very cramped quarters would be able to move into these houses with more rooms. When, recently, the corporation endeavoured to increase the rents of some of these houses, where the people had fairly substantial incomes and to make the rents economic, the proposal met with great opposition from certain sections of the public living in these subsidised houses. Sometimes there is a tremendous tendency for people to look for hand-outs and to burden the Exchequer and their fellow-citizens, without any thought of who is paying for it.

The rates situation in Dublin is very bad. People on fixed incomes who have to pay huge rates have, I think, the sympathy of just about everybody. But why are these people paying so much in rates? It is because there are too many passengers, people who are not paying their way as they should. It is well known that in many of these corporation houses—not all—there is in excess of £30 and £40 a week coming in, with members of the family working. These people will not contribute towards the cost of their houses. Therefore, if the rent is too high, the parents have to pay it. I would not accept that at all, which means that these young wage earners who in many cases could contribute, are getting away with resting on the backs of the other ratepayers. I understand that the average maintenance cost of a corporation house in Dublin is 13s 9d per week; the average cost, when a person moves from one house to another, of putting that house in order averages about £50. Every time somebody moves from one house to another, it costs the ratepayers £50.

In spite of the Government's excellent subsidies to the corporation—and they do give very large subsidies to the corporation for housing—there are people who will not play their part and contribute to their fellow citizen by paying more economic rents, or buying their own houses. That is one of the points I had intended to deal with.

Before I conclude, I should say that I believe the Government have shown great wisdom in the way in which they have governed since they came to office in 1965. I believe by the time the next general election is due, the people will have seen that the Fianna Fáil Government will have implemented most of the policies they said they would implement at the last general election. The lessons learned from the Coalition's period in office were well learned by this Government so that when a recession came, they did not panic as the Coalition did. I know it is very easy to be wise after the event. Nevertheless, it is extremely important that you have a Government who are united and who when faced with difficulties, stand together and act as a team.

We are all delighted that we have such a distinguished and highly-qualified Minister for Finance as Deputy Haughey. It is indeed a wonderful thing that the Fianna Fáil Party had such a man to follow his predecessor, Deputy Jack Lynch, the Taoiseach, who did such an excellent job. There are too many people in this country whose horizons are too small. It is said that in order to think big you have to be big. There are too many people who do not foresee, as I do, the radical changes which are going to take place in this country within the next 20 years.

This country was once known as the Island of Saints and Scholars. It is my belief it will be known as such again. We have wonderful resources in manpower and brainpower. I should like to see the day when we will have set up in this country a research development project to train and educate Irishmen to take highly-skilled technical jobs here in Ireland. People from abroad will bring their industries here, knowing they have the trained manpower to fill the highly technical positions that will be available. We are going to have to undergo a big psychological change within the next few years. We have to realise that in most developed countries of the world there is a shortage of manpower. Ireland is one of the few places left. We are going to have to train our people in new skills to take on the new tasks which will be presented to us in the next five or ten years.

There is tremendous interest in this country. There is a tremendous drive to get industry. We want here people who are really interested in the development of the country. It is essential that the people begin to understand what progress means in terms of the changes that are going to come in the next ten to 20 years. The people will change; the countryside will change; the type of housing will change. There will be many changes. We are known at the moment as a country that resists change in many ways. Every time someone tries to make progress in some direction, you have one or other pressure group coming up—elected by no one, representing no one but acting in their own self-interest. We have to welcome change because we have no choice. Change must and will come. We might as well go along with it, accept it and see what we can do to help in a constructive manner. We have to add to culture. It has been said that if you want to preserve culture, the place for it is in the museum. But if you want to add to culture, we must consider what we can contribute to a new world moving ahead and will have to become a little more practical in our outlook.

In conclusion, I want to congratulate the Minister on his able Budget, a Budget which everyone felt was very good. The farming community must be delighted with it——

Do not be too sure.

——in particular, the small farmers whom it was designed to help. I know that when the people next have an opportunity to vote in a general election, Fianna Fáil will again be returned as the Party who have always had the honesty to do the difficult thing, but who also could take pleasure in doing the pleasant thing when it was possible to do so.

May I just take Deputy Briscoe up on his last remark? Governments have a duty to govern, but they have a duty also to be responsible and to be frank with the people they are governing. One of the things I propose to do in a few minutes is to show in one respect where the Minister for Finance in the presentation of his Budget, far from being frank, quite deliberately fiddled with the out-turn of last year's accounts. That is not the type of frankness one would expect from an honest Government, nor is it the type of responsibility one would expect from a responsible Government.

It is not the first time Fianna Fáil have done this and it is not the first time I was able to expose it. It is only a very short time since I was able to show in this House that, because of a direct instruction by the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to the manner in which the balance sheet of Nítrigin Éireann was to be presented to the public, the true state of affairs in relation to certain aspects of that company had been quite deliberately hidden. Let me at once say that the form of that balance sheet was made before the present incumbent went into the Department of Finance. The form was made by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce and, I imagine, approved by the Minister for Finance for the time being as well. It was a form, I think, which was originally made when the present Taoiseach was Minister for Industry and Commerce. It is a disgracefully dishonest method of concealing from the people the facts of the situation and had nothing to do with the production of fertilisers in Arklow or the employment given there. It was merely a slick method of trying to show something that was not true. That is not an attribute one would expect to find in a responsible Government; nor as I say, was the manner in which the Minister fiddled the out-turn of last year's Budget a responsible one.

Everyone knows that every week, year in and year out, the receipts into the Exchequer and the payments out of the Exchequer are published in Iris Oifigiúil, and during St. Patrick's Day week, on 14th March, the returns were published. Many of us at that time made ourselves an exercise to figure the out-turn of the Budget for last year, and the average of the computations that we made was that the Minister for Finance, at the end of last year, was going to have a Budget surplus of some £4 million in the out-turn for 1966-67. The Minister, I am sure, will not mind my mentioning to him that I actually named that figure to him when I was seeing him on a deputation about another matter to which I have reason to refer in a more pleasant fashion in a few moments.

It was obvious, when the Minister for Finance published his accounts up to 31st March last, that he had done something with this money, that he had fiddled the moneys, not for his own personal gain, let me add, because the Comptroller and Auditor General would take good care that would not happen; I am not suggesting the Minister would not be capable of doing it if he thought he could get away with it, but the Comptroller and Auditor General would not let him get away with it. It was clear when the figures came to be published showing a surplus of £790,000 that the Minister had done one of two things: either he had deliberately left certain moneys in the pipeline — and I covered that by a question last week and found that was not what he had done—or he had deliberately, without telling the people, for the purpose of making a Budget to suit the local elections this year, paid last year money that normally would fall for payment this year, and had deferred, in addition to that, revenue which should have come to credit before 31st March and brought it to credit after 1st April.

The whole purpose of doing that was a political one. It was done for the purpose of ensuring that he would have largesse to disburse this year before the local elections instead of using the surplus that should have been there for the purpose of wiping out some of the debts to posterity that have been left by Fianna Fáil Ministers for Finance during the past five years. The accumulated Budget deficits of Fianna Fáil Ministers for the five years ending 1966 amounted to £19,850,000. If the Minister for Finance had been marshalling the public funds that it is his duty responsibly to marshal at the end of last month, he would have been able to pay off a substantial part of that millstone that has been left by the Government around the necks of all of us for the next 25 years while we are paying it off.

The proof of what I am saying is available in Iris Oifigiúil of 18th April. For the first two weeks of this year, the revenue that came into the Exchequer amounted to £11,246,655. For the first two weeks of last year, the revenue that came into the Exchequer amounted to £7,870,724; in other words, this year in two weeks revenue has gone up by £3,375,000. One explanation—and the only explanation that would completely exonerate the Minister—would be if this arose because of the new wholesale tax, which was not there last year, but, of course, the wholesale tax accounts for only £173,000 of that excess.

Even apart from the increase in tax revenue that was deliberately held back in the pipeline from last year, there is a solid sum of around £1 million from the Post Office which is being brought in in the first two weeks of this year and in respect of which there was no credit at all last year. Does the Minister really expect anybody to believe that the Post Office made £1 million profit in the first two weeks of this year? Is it not perfectly obvious that he had that sum there last year and deliberately carried it forward from the year to which it belonged into this year so that he could add another little carrot for the local elections?

The Minister for Finance intended to do that, because for the first time for many years in the Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure published on the Friday before the Budget, he shows non-tax revenue at £4,342,000, a sum of £1,400,000 over the highest figure ever before included. It is clear beyond question that of the revenue thrown in, the Minister had taken out from last year and included in this year somewhere around £3 million. Iris Oifigiúil of the 18th of this month makes that certain.

More than that is involved. In the first couple of weeks of this year, we find expenditure is £2,456,990 less than it was in the first two weeks of last year. Why? Because the Minister gave instructions to the Departments that in the last week of March, they were to pay at once in that week moneys that belonged to this year and which he wanted to get rid of to make sure that the surplus melted away. I challenge the Minister, for example, to deny that the Department of Education was told to pay out moneys before 31st March which they normally would not pay until 1st April. I challenge him to deny that the same thing arose in the Department of Health. The vast part of £2,500,000 was pushed over in this way into last year for the purpose of enabling him to create a political Budget prior to the local elections. If there had been a pattern, a similar series, in the years before and if there had been no deficit on current account, that might then have been permissible; but, even then, it would have been permissible only if the people had been taken frankly into the Minister's confidence. The sly, slick way in which it was done, something which could not have been exposed had this Budget debate ended last week, shows that the Minister is not being as honest with or as responsible to the people as he should be.

Governments must govern, and governments must be responsible. This is not an example of responsibility, just as I contend—I shall not dwell on this in view of the Ceann Comhairle's ruling—it did not show responsibility for the Taoiseach to make his provocative statement on Monday night. In that connection, I am extremely glad to note that Mr. Deasy did not succumb to the provocation. I hope now that commonsense will prevail and that the Government will again, as governments should, become responsible and take the proper course of waiting, as they should have waited originally, for the outcome of next Friday's meeting, which everybody appreciates will represent a milestone on the road to that peace and harmony we all desire. That will only come about if we, even now, do something to engender respect for law and order, a respect which I am afraid the Taoiseach did not assist on Monday night and a respect which the Minister for Finance did not assist when he fiddled away the surplus on last year's accounts.

I wonder how many people realise that, because of this fiddling in one direction and because of other things, the Minister for Finance when he came in here on Budget day, without having to lift a finger, had a revenue buoyancy substantially greater than most of his predecessors ever had? Leaving out the revenue buoyancy of £3½ million of extra revenue pushed from last year into this year, without the Minister having to lift a finger, he had £16 million more buoyancy in revenue. The exact figure is £19,994,000: £15,363,000 of tax revenue, £289,000 for the additional ten per cent road contribution to the Exchequer and £4,342,000 for non-tax revenue: buoyancy at the rate of £19,994,000. Taking away the £3½ million belonging genuinely to last year which the Minister fiddled into this year for the purpose of the local elections, he had £16 million, and all he had to do was so to manage his affairs as Minister for Finance, and he had then benefits to the extent of that sum that could have been given to the hardpressed taxpayers.

Looking back over the past four years, the revenue buoyancy has amounted to a cumulative £70 million and it is a matter of considerable doubt whether we have got anything like the value we should have got for it. In these buoyancy figures there is one figure I simply cannot understand and I should like the Minister to let us have some explanation of it when he is replying to the debate. In the current year, corporation profits tax is set out to return £13,750,000. In the outturn for last year—I do not think the Minister can have held back anything like the amount involved here— the amount recovered was £9,430,000; in other words, buoyancy this year will amount to £4,320,000. In 1966-67 as compared with 1965-66, buoyancy was only £800,000. This year it has become five times as much again. I am aware that corporation profits tax rates were altered in the summer of last year and my understanding of that alteration was that it was made in such a way as not to put on the companies concerned any greater burden than they had previously to bear.

I am aware, of course, that there was a change in the method of assessment of corporation profits tax with Schedule D income tax and that, because of the change in method, which was not initiated by us but arose because of the new form of corporation tax assessment in Britain, deductions were allowable for CPT from Schedule D taxation, deductions which were not previously allowed. If that is so, and if virtually the whole of this £4½ million increase in corporation profits tax estimated yield this year arises from the fact that, while CPT on a company is up, income tax under Schedule D is down because of the allowability of CPT for a deduction, then I do not understand why in the estimate of receipts there is a £5 million buoyancy in addition for income tax.

The normal company accounts that one takes up, the reports that one sees from day to day, all suggest that companies last year were having a tighter margin in profits and that a tighter margin in their profits last year should be reflected in their tax assessments this year. The Minister for Finance knows the language in which I am talking in relation to these matters and it is not necessary for me, therefore, to go into too great a detail. However, it seems to me that, if there is buoyancy in CPT of £4½ million, buoyancy on a legitimate basis, then there should be, because of the announcements made last year, a similar reduction of more or less the same figure in the Schedule D income tax of companies. If that is so, the effect of the figures published in regard to income tax is that we should have a buoyancy in income tax of about £10 million, were it not for that to which I have already referred, and this suggests to me that the amount the individual will contribute by way of direct taxation, apart from the amount corporations will contribute, will this year be very much higher.

In considering that buoyancy, one must also take into account the figure for errors of estimation which the Minister has taken in the framing of his Budget. It is of interest to note how other Ministers before him have taken something for this and how they fared as a result of doing so. In the 1963 Budget, the Minister for Finance of that date took £2 million as the figure on which he felt he could rely for errors of estimation. How did he wind up that year? With a deficit of £2,200,000. In 1965, the Minister for Finance of that year took £4 million, the same figure as this year, as the amount on which he could rely for errors of estimation. How did he wind up? With a deficit of £8 million. Last year nothing at all was taken for errors of estimation and the year produced a surplus. I suggest to the Minister for Finance that the moral obviously to be drawn from that is that the figure he has taken as being allowable for errors of estimation must be an incorrect one, unless of course he had more up his sleeve in relation to anticipated payments before 31st March than even I have been able so far to discover.

Last year the total amount of over-estimation in the various Votes as appears from the reply to a question which I had down for Budget day amounted to £1,182,000. The figure that is taken here used to be at one time a figure taken of an estimate of over-estimation; now I think much more properly being put to a figure of errors of estimation on both sides of the account. However, unless the facts are that there is an even greater hideaway by the Minister carried in from last year, then I fear that this figure he has taken is one unlikely to be realised. On that account, of course, it would follow that his Budget this year would have a deficit. Mind you, I am not arguing at all at this stage that a Budget in deficit for the purpose of reflation might not be the right one. I shall come to that in a moment. I do argue very strongly that the truth, the whole truth, should be told particularly in a Budget Statement in matters like this.

I do think, however, that in relation to one aspect of his Budget the Minister deserves to be congratulated. I am not surprised that he has almost fainted. As I have disclosed in the House before, this is a matter in which I am personally interested. Last October the company with which I have the privilege to be associated in relation to mining submitted a very long, detailed and progressive memorandum to the predecessor of the Minister for Finance, a long memorandum which showed clearly that there were certain aspects in relation to mining which called for particular attention and that unless something was done for additional incentives, we were not likely to get the progress in that regard that we would all like to see. All of us have the feeling—I have always had the feeling and people of the country have always had the feeling—that "there's gold in them that hills". While we may not have gold as such, it is highly desirable that we should in the shortest possible time ensure that the possibility of further mineral resources in Ireland should be exploited to the full.

Hear, hear.

I shall not labour the points that could be made in relation to this. The Minister was gracious enough to receive a deputation, even though he cannot have enjoyed having me on that deputation.

You would be welcome.

I shall not press that point of view for obvious reasons. I am not disclosing any secret when I say that I went with that deputation to put to the Minister not so much the necessity for an amelioration of the position in relation to existing mines, though there is a case in relation to them about which I want to say a word in a minute, as the necessity to ensure that we would get the most extensive mining exploration that we could possibly get in the future. As far as I know the only formal memorandum that was put in by any mining group to the Minister was the memorandum we handed to Deputy Lynch when he was Minister for Finance last October.

I want to be fair to the Minister and to say that, though I was a bit surprised at the time, I think, on reconsideration, that he was right in taking the line that instead of following a variety of detailed incentives that had been put to him in that memorandum, it was better to cut the Gordian knot and to provide one overall incentive. I have no doubt that the arguments put forward for the detailed changes suggested helped him in coming to his conclusions. Indeed, he is generous enough in his Budget Statement to admit that that is so. I think there is no doubt that the 20-year tax-free incentive that has now been given to mining will have the effect of ensuring that in the next five to ten years, we will have had our potential mineral wealth in Ireland so explored as to know what we have or have not got.

The Act of 1956 with which I was associated on behalf of the then Government stirred up an immense amount of interest in Irish mining. It did its job for the time being. The four years free and the four years at half rates had the effect of bringing into Ireland considerable exploratory teams from abroad, and as a result of those explorations, we had last year a base metals export total of £3,680,000, which, were it not for that inducement, would never have arisen. In any incentive of that type, it is desirable to ensure that interest is kept up and that the claims of other countries on the exploration budgets of the big mining companies would not succeed in taking them away from Ireland or would not succeed in preventing them making allocations to Ireland. I believe that the publicity that has been given in the Northern Miner in Toronto and the publicity that has been given in the Financial Post in Toronto to the concession given by the Budget will mean that there will be a greatly revived interest in exploration for further mines here and, according to the law of averages, having regard to what has already been found here, it should mean that further mines will be discovered.

There is another reason why the concession is desirable. We all know that much of our metals here are of a low grade and that, if it were not for an incentive of some sort, there would be the gravest danger that all that could be mined in Ireland would be the higher grade lodes and those portions of lodes which were of the higher grades. It could easily mean that once the higher grades had been taken out, what was left behind would not be worth anything to anybody, no matter what incentives there were. The effect of this 20-year incentive now is that those now engaged in mining, as apart from exploration, can plan over a substantial period to average their ex traction in such a way that the lower grade will be taken as well as the higher grade and it will undoubtedly have the effect of ensuring that mines are developed in a much more rational way and that the amount of ore won from the earth will be greater than what it would otherwise be.

Some people may suggest perhaps that it is odd for us here in Ireland to adopt this type of policy, having regard to the report of the Carter Commission in Canada. Since the Carter Commission's Report was published in Canada, it has been violently attacked and regarded as retrograde in every way. With their spill-over of investment from the United States, they have quite a different problem from the one we have. They are in danger of having a type of inflation because of excessive capital resources coming in from elsewhere. The Minister for Finance will agree with me when I say I wish to goodness we had excessive capital resources here. We have an entirely different picture. Our picture is one that requires all the capital that can be obtained. I believe that the concession in relation to mining here will assist outside capital and skill and know-how to come in and to do a really good job of exploration over the years immediately ahead. We shall then know whether or not we have any further mineral wealth. Having had some little part originally in the preparation of the memorandum that was given to his predecessor, having had some little part in arguing the case at the deputation with him, it would be less than generous if I did not pay tribute to the fact that the broad basis upon which he has made the assessment is one which, in my view, will create more interest in Irish mining development than would be achieved by accepting the many detailed suggestions that were made to him by us, though perhaps in one way there would not have been so very much difference.

I want to refer to another technical matter in relation to the statement by the Minister on the same page of his Budget speech about Part VII of the Finance Act, 1965. I need hardly say that I am glad to hear the official acknowledgment of a Minister for Finance that the case I made in 1965 is now, belatedly, I admit, to be met. I always took the view that Part VII of that Act was a gross mistake. I was always anxious, ready and willing to assist, from these benches, in cooperating in devising a scheme that would prevent those who should pay from not paying. Section 6 of the Finance Act, 1935—I think it is section 6—is the section which deals with the intention to develop. That section had been overridden by people who were prepared to make statements that were not in fact true. It was something that a Minister for Finance had to seal off. However, the way in which it was done by Part VII of the Finance Act, 1965, caught the guilty and, in addition, caught the innocent.

The Minister has said in his Budget speech that Part VII will be amended. I am not quite clear whether he intends what he said to mean that Part VII will be abolished. He also said: "I should like to make it clear that the relieving provisions I shall be bringing in will be retrospective to 6th April, 1965". That is quite clear as far as it goes but there is the expression "relieving provisions"— relieving whom? One can have very considerable difference of opinion, with cases that were caught under Part VII, whether taxpayer A and taxpayer B are both to be relieved or not. The effect of this has been that virtually there is stagnation in relation to certain things. The Minister has indicated—I can understand his point of view—that he will not introduce this Bill until the autumn. At least, that is what I understood him to mean in his Budget speech: if I am wrong, I willingly accept contradiction. Until then, nobody will know what the relieving provisions will affect.

I am not interested in the case I mentioned here before. This man was a builder. He went out with his solicitor and architect and looked at a nice large flat slice of land. He said to them: "Would that not be a nice place to build a house where I could live for the rest of my days?" They agreed and he went to the auction and bought it. He came out the next day with the architect and brought his wife with him. He said to her: "Now, darling, where would you like the architect to site our new house on this land which I bought yesterday?" The reply his wife gave was: "I would not be seen dead in any house on this land. I would not dream of living here." He could then turn around and say: "In that case I am sorry. We cannot live in a house on this land. You, the architect, will be able to make a statutory declaration that I brought you here for the purpose of ensuring that I was going to build a house for myself, and you heard my wife say she would not live here. Therefore, your declaration will assist me in making my declaration to the Revenue Commissioners that I did not buy this land with the intention of developing it as visualised under section 6 of the Finance Act, 1935."

That was a ready-up from the very beginning. The wife had not been shown the land before the auction, and she had been told what to say when she arrived there. The result was that the land was passed over at a huge capital profit to a building company, and the building company did not make any profit for which they could be assessed for income tax. If one wanted to be dishonest, that was one method of making a very substantial capital tax-free profit because of a loophole, if you like, in the 1935 Act. This man was not a client of mine. I would not dream of being associated with that type of transaction. That is the type of case the Minister should have blocked in the 1965 Act but because of the necessity of blocking that type of case, he also covered others, and the effect of Part VII of the Finance Act, 1965, has been—as we indicated at the time—that a genuine, innocent person has been and can be caught under that section.

Did anyone believe that if a farmer whose family had been in possession of land for the past 100 years sold three sites to people to build houses for themselves, he would be assessed for income tax on the price he got for the sites? Of course that was not the intention, but it was included in the Act. It was wrong to so include it. I am delighted that that is now to be changed. Did anyone believe that if a licensed premises was improved by building new lavatories or by making the lounge more comfortable for the patrons and it then became necessary, because of the death of the owner or something like that, to sell that licensed premises, the family would be liable for income tax because of that building development? We said at the time that this was included in Part VII of the Finance Act, 1965, as drawn. I hope it will be amended in the immediate future. We do not know what is going to be relieved. We do not know what is going to be left in.

I know one case where a man died and, following his death, it was desirable to sell a licensed premises for the purpose, amongst other things, of meeting a claim for death duties. Because there had been some building development—additional toilets and accommodation for patrons—until such time as the new legislation is seen, that premises cannot be sold. If it were sold now and if it realised, as it would realise, a price far in excess of that which was paid for it in 1908, the excess would be liable for taxation under this part of the 1965 Act. Therefore, I want to say to the Minister in relation to his promise in this respect that he should indicate exactly what he is going to do far in advance of the autumn, if there is not to be complete stagnation in the type of improvement necessary and desirable in these premises—necessary and desirable for public health reasons and for the convenience of the people using those premises and to avoid unnecessary restriction of building activities.

The Minister should make a clear statement in advance of the legislation as to what his intentions are. If he does that, he can rest assured that if what he has in mind concerns the man who pretends he did not buy land for development west of the city of Dublin, who pretends he bought it for his own residence when in fact he bought it for development, the Minister will find that he will get the greatest cooperation from this side of the House in achieving what we all desire, namely, that there will be liability where liability is due, and that the genuine, innocent man will not be called upon to pay because of the inclusion of a type of format such as that included in the 1965 Act.

The Minister must be criticised, and criticised strongly, for his neglect in not taking the people into his confidence in relation to the other side of the coin about social welfare benefits. The Minister has said that there is to be an increase of 5/- in social welfare benefits on the contributory side as from 1st January next, but he has not given any indication of the cost that will have to be met in relation thereto. It has been suggested, and it was acknowledged by the Minister for Social Welfare in answer to a question the other day, that the present Social Welfare Fund is met as to benefits by some 40 per cent made available from the general taxpayers' contribution, and 60 per cent, the remainder, from contributions as between employer and employee. If that is so—and as I say, this is a figure which the Minister for Social Welfare has given — then it would mean that the existing stamp of 14/10d represents 60 per cent, 7/5d payable by the employer and 7/5d payable by the employee. The sum of 14/10d is equivalent to 178d. If that is 60 per cent, then to put the Social Welfare Fund on the one-third, one-third, one-third basis which the Minister for Finance has indicated, would require an additional 1/6d stamp on the card, or an additional 9d from the employer and an additional 9d from the employee.

Neither the Minister for Finance nor the Minister for Social Welfare will tell the House what additional stamp is to be payable in respect of the 5/- increase from 1st January next. The best estimate I have been able to make, in the absence of an official estimate, is that it will be another 3/-. In 1964, it was 11/10d and it is now 14/10d and on the same basis of increase, it looks like an additional increase of 3/-. If there is to be an additional 3/-together with the 1/6d to bring the computation up to equal one-thirds, then it means that as a result every employer will have to pay another 2/3d per week in respect of his full cost stamp man and every male employee who is paying stamp contributions at the full rate will have to pay another 2/3d per week after 1st January next. They are big figures. I am not surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary is shocked. I was shocked when I sat down——

The Deputy made two amounts of 2/3d total 3/-.

The figures 3/- and 1/6d total 4/6d. Can the Parliamentary Secretary go as far as that? And one-half of 4/6d is 2/3d, and it goes on the basis now, as the Minister said, of one third to the employer, one third to the employee and one-third to the community through the general taxpayer. The taxpayer is being saved 1/6d by the Minister's re-organisation of the fund, at the expense of the employers and employees, but the employer will have to pay 2/3d extra and the employee 2/3d extra. If those figures are not right—and I am not trying in any way to set myself up as an expert on this, I am trying to work it out as best I can, and I checked it this morning with the Department—why did the Minister for Social Welfare not give us the figures yesterday when he was asked for them? If he had done so, we would not have had to speculate. The best speculation I can honestly make with the information before me is that there will be an increase, if the Minister meant what he said, of 2/3d on the stamp for every employer and every employee and that is a very heavy increase.

From time to time we have had suggestions made by no less a person than the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, that the best test in our circumstances of the success or failure of any policy of any Government is the test of how employment is running. What is the position in relation to employment? It is not very happy. Unemployment figures on the live register at present are running about 15 per cent higher than last year. If the method of computing the numbers on the live register had not been changed at the beginning of 1966, I venture to say that we would have something in the region of 10,000 to 15,000 additionally registered. We have this at a time in which the Economic and Social Research Institute's Quarterly Industrial Survey for January last tells us that in relation to skilled labour, 48 per cent of our industries say that they cannot get enough.

Is that not a pretty bad criticism of the educational results in relation to the provision of skills for our people over the past ten years or so? Does it not make it appear that what we have been doing was ensuring that our people were not able to do the technical jobs and that we were only educating them to be hewers of wood and drawers of water? In addition to our unemployment figures on the live register being up, the total at work is down by some 10,000 compared with the past few years. Is that something about which any of us here are entitled to be happy? Is that something for which the Government are entitled to take credit? Is that something which is indicative of a successful policy? Is it not quite obvious that instead it is something that is indicative of a great failure in the policy of the Government?

The recent Report of the National Industrial Economic Council on Full Employment confirms that view. I saw some innocents on the benches over there getting up immediately after the publication of this Report and I heard them hailing it as a great plan for full employment. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Far from being a plan for full employment, it says again and again, and again and again, that it is not a plan. It goes on to analyse that full employment even by 1980 is not possible on the policies which Fianna Fáil are putting into operation at present. The Report says that by 1980 we would want to be investing 30 per cent of our national output annually if we are to hope to succeed. At present we are investing only 20 per cent and there is no suggestion in this Budget of any way in which that investment could be accelerated or improved.

The NIEC Report concludes that to achieve full employment even by 1980 we would require an annual average growth rate of 5.5 per cent between 1965 and 1970 and perhaps when one takes into account not merely the virtually stagnant position in 1966 but the trifling growth rate that anybody, even the Minister, anticipates for 1967, it is more likely we would require a six per cent growth rate between 1967 and 1980 to achieve full employment or anything like it. Do we not all know—and the NIEC confirms—that is not going to happen, that what is needed, if we are to get to the type of employment opportunities we need and desire, is an entirely different approach, one which is certainly not attempted in any way by the Minister for Finance in his current Budget?

They make clear in the NIEC Report that one of the reasons that we are not able to get the skilled labour to which I have already referred and one of the reasons there was so much draw on emigration, was the fact that our educational system was not geared to meet the present and immediate future needs of the economy. As I am on the subject of education, let me say that we in Fine Gael, of course, welcome the announcement by the Minister for Education in relation to the two universities in Dublin. We were the first political Party ever to state categorically and to pin our flag to the mast in a public statement, that this should be done and I am glad to see that the Minister for Education has followed the advice given to him on education in the Fine Gael policy document, A Just Society, published a long time before the Minister made any move in the matter. I commend this booklet to the Parliamentary Secretary. It is priced at 1/- but I shall even send him a free copy if he will undertake to read it.

I have read three or four policies of Fine Gael in the last few by-elections.

Then you have copied it also. I hope that in addition to the progress the Minister for Education will make regarding the rationalisation of the two universities' curricula in Dublin—if I may use that word—he will remember that unless a university is autonomous it will not be any use as a university, that the creation of two appendages to the Department of Education under the guise of universities would not get us anywhere in regard to higher education. It would only be an extension of the murder machine. The autonomous direction of a university is an essential facet of any real work by that university.

That would be a matter for the Estimate.

I shall not go into any detail. I am only dealing with the matter on the broad general principle because in relation to the broad general principle we must provide substantial funds in this Budget—and correctly provide them—for university education. I should hope also that it would be, what I might for simplicity describe as federalisation, rather than absorption because I think in that way one would get the best results, but that is a matter that would require very great and detailed consideration by the Minister and the autonomous bodies concerned in the universities and one on which, with all due respect to the Leas Cheann Comhairle, detailed discussion would not be appropriate in the Budget debate. I shall not infringe on your ruling by going into that detail on this occasion.

I think it is true, as the NIEC say, that one of the things that militated against growth towards full employment is discouragement of enterprise by the maintenance of an environment unfavourable to it, even an environment which is tolerating and accepting restrictive practices on both sides of the employment fence, and unless we achieve a very much wider view regarding employment than has been the practice we shall not in future be able to meet the challenge and requirements of full employment that we all desire and in regard to which certain very clear signposts have been set up by NIEC.

It is also true that we cannot hope to achieve full employment by the continuation of the haphazard investment policy that we have adopted in the past. Investment policies have never been measured by the return that would be available from them for national, economic and social purposes. I do not want to suggest for a moment that the investment returns to be considered are only ones in terms of economics: we must have a proper social return also but it must be obtained through proper planned development.

It is true, as the NIEC report has said, that industrialists in various parts of the country have had difficulty in getting firm undertakings from local authorities and Government Departments about the provision of sites, the provision of essential services, houses, water, sanitary schemes and so on and as a result, to some extent, they themselves have been unable to plan. That vacuum in our planning must be filled.

Perhaps one of the things that would appeal to most of us more than anything else in the Report is the manner in which they criticise—and fairly criticise—our neglect to take proper advantage of the role of technology in the modern society, our neglect to take proper account of the role of research and development of modern means. There is no place in which that has been so significantly noticeable as in the Civil Service. Every now and then a Minister for Finance gets up and says: "I will do something about reorganising the Civil Service". The sooner those who are in charge of the Civil Service—the Minister for Finance is of course the principal person— realise that a Civil Service should be attuned to the needs of a modern society rather than belonging to the plumed pen-pushing of 60 years ago the more progress will be made.

I heard a rumour the other day that an edict had gone out from the Minister for Finance that there is to be no machine obtained in any office unless the person in charge of that office can certify that the whole office will collapse without the purchase of the machine. Of course nobody could carry on an office like that at the present time; of course in private business nobody fails to find the money for a machine if the cost of the machine will be saved in overtime in a short period. But it is not done in relation to the Civil Service and there is no proper appreciation in the lower levels of the manner in which modern office machines can save money.

I know the Revenue Commissioners have got a computer, more power to them. I shall not make any comment about whether the computer collects taxes from us more quickly. As I said at the beginning, the computer was given a holiday by the Minister for Finance during the last week in March so that the moneys which should have flowed in at that time would come into this year's accounts.

I was amazed recently to discover that one substantial office which is responsible for some millions of revenue has not got in it a photocopy machine of any sort. I suspect it is because there were people in the office who were prepared to go on pushing perhaps not feather but fountain pens forever. Everybody in private business knows it is difficult to get accuracy in copy figures and that apart from saving substantially in the cost of copying, the saving in getting accurate returns by photocopy machines is worth anything. A single photocopy machine is not a very large item to pick on but I am picking on it as indicative of the general approach, which is that it does not matter a hoot what it will save if the Vote for the Stationery Office is exhausted. It does not matter a hoot whether it will save money or not; it just will not be got if the office concerned is not going to fall asunder without it. The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Finance are responsible for the Stationery Office.

The Minister is responsible.

Yes, but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary aids and assists the Minister in many ways. There was a time two years ago when we in Fine Gael suggested that more planning was needed in national affairs. We had Deputy Lemass, then Taoiseach, hurrying down to the hustings in Mullingar saying he would have nothing to do with planning, that planning was a complete farce, that there could not be any such thing. Yet it is the lack of planning and the necessity for an incomes policy, which the Taoiseach also derided, which the NIEC referred to and in respect of which they said we have got to do them properly if we are to achieve any possibility of full employment.

The Government also published in the last couple of weeks a White Paper, or rather a green paper, on the European Economic Community, a substantial volume which we shall all have to study with great care in the weeks and months ahead. I do not pretend for a second that I have been able in the time since it was published last week to give it the attention or care of study it deserves, but it seems to me the Budget this year has not given the tax policies in the European Economic Community the attention they deserve. As far as one can see, it seems that under the Treaty of Rome, the members of the Community have to endeavour to harmonise their tax systems as far as they can, each to one another, and it seems in relation to taxes on expenditure that the addedvalue tax of France is likely to be the type of that sort of tax that will be adopted ultimately by the Community. I see nothing in the Budget in relation to any approach at harmonisation towards this.

It seems likely in relation to corporate taxation that the system in operation in Germany will be adopted by the Community as a whole. I frankly would be perturbed by that. The German system, as I understand it, is based on the desirability of ensuring that the maximum amount of profits that have been made by a company will be distributed. It may be it is good for their economic system but I would have thought that here in Ireland rather than maximum distribution we would have been inclined to regard as being best for us a system by which there would be maximum plough-back. I do not know whether the Government have in mind in regard to any discussions there will be with the authorities of the Community that there will be some other method of approach than the German taxation scheme which is apparently the one likely to be adopted in the Community as a whole.

We had in newspapers from time to time before the Budget references to scandals in the income tax code, references to the jungle of income tax in general. As far as I can see, there has been no change in relation to the alleviation of these scandals or the clarification of that jungle in the Budget, other than the one concession in relation to surtax of people in the managerial class. Of course we must have that concession. We were running the gravest danger that there would be such a brain-drain of the managerial class that it would be at that level our efforts would fail to make the progress everyone desires.

There was published in Business and Finance on 17th March last a table showing the relief in income tax that would be payable here and in Britain. A single person with an income of £500 here in Ireland would pay £49 tax compared with £41 in Britain. A person with £700, a single person again, here in Ireland, would likewise pay £8 income tax more than such a person would pay in Britain. The table, of course, mentioned the higher managerial scales. As I said, I am glad to see that the Minister has made some improvement here.

There was also published in the Sunday Independent of 12th March last a scale showing the various amounts paid in direct taxation in a variety of countries. It was published by means of showing what would be the percentage of an extra £1 that would be paid to a person in addition to the income he already had. According to this table, if a person had an income level of £1,000—that is not a very high income level these days— out of the extra £1 he got in France, 11 per cent would be taken by direct taxation, in Britain, 23 per cent, in Germany, 13 per cent, in Sweden, 28 per cent, in America, 19 per cent and in Ireland 26¼ per cent. In other words, if a person earning £1,000 were paid £1 extra by his employer, with the exception of Sweden, the Minister for Finance in Ireland would take a higher tax percentage out of that £1 than any other country of those quoted. We can go on with larger sums. On the £2,500, which does not come in for further tax benefit given by the Minister, it would be 18 per cent in France, 25 per cent in Germany, 20 per cent in America but 35 per cent in Ireland.

There is nothing in this Budget to ease the position in that respect. There is in this Budget a substantial increase in certain things. The other day I looked up the cost of servicing the public debt. In 1957-58, the first year in which Fianna Fáil were in office in this term, the interest on the public debt was £11,823,000. The sinking fund for the public debt was £6,193,000 and the interest on Exchequer advances amounted to £6,526,000. Therefore, the net cost of the public debt to Ireland in 1957-58 was £11,490,000.

Where are we standing in the current year? According to the Estimates the Minister has now circulated, interest in the current year will cost £37,247,000, the sinking fund £11,040,000, less the interest on advances, £12,820,000 or a net cost to run the public debt for this year of £41 million compared with £11 million when this Government came into office in this term. Do the Government think or do the public think we have got value for that, particularly in the circumstances of 1967 when there are 9,400 fewer males engaged in farm work, the gross output from agriculture is down by £5,200,000 and the net output from agriculture is down £3,800,000?

The real test on which we must judge whether we are going to improve in the future is domestic fixed capital formation which is down by £12 million in 1966 compared with the previous year. Nothing whatever is being done to make Irish funds more marketable here at home so as to achieve a wider base for Irish funds in relation to bank credit and so make certain that there will be sufficient bank credit available for productive processes in the private sector. All we have had in that respect from the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement is that he is going to ensure that the public sector will take the £25 million additional bank credit out of the pool which would otherwise be available for the private sector.

Let us turn to the OECD Report on Ireland. I heard Deputy Briscoe congratulating the Minister on the manner in which he had surmounted the difficulties of the past. What did the OECD Report say? It makes it clear that the difficulties into which we went because of our balance of payments and other reasons in 1965 were almost entirely caused by the Government, that it was their action in 1964 for political purposes, which started off the train which started the fire, that the riot of spending they went for in 1965, the increase in the public debt in 1965, to an all-time high figure of £79 million for one year were the real causes of the troubles of that year; that the highest deficit in any Budget ever produced by any Minister for Finance in that year, £8 million in 1965-66 was one of the main causes of our difficulties, that the excess public capital expenditure over and above the planned amount of the Second Programme was another of the causes of the failure at that time.

Every one of those things which the Government should have foreseen and taken action on, was their own deliberate act, just as because of their deliberate action, our public debt has now reached the astounding figure of £769 million. There is nothing in this Budget to ensure that the poor Minister for Health, who was sent around, on his appointment, and who quite rightly went around, on his appointment, to see the various health authorities in the country would be enabled to keep to the word of the great spender, Deputy O'Malley, when he was in the Department of Health.

Here is what the Minister for Health said, according to the minutes of the meeting of Kildare County Council on Wednesday, 12th October, 1966, minutes which were sent to the Minister for his comment after the meeting and which he did not contradict or criticise in any way. On the question of finance, the Minister said "that the contribution from local rates had been frozen at the 1965 level and that it was government policy that this should continue." The rates in County Kildare will be up this year by 1s 6d in defiance of that promise; the rates in every single health authority in the country, extracted from the ratepayers and the community, will be up this year in defiance of that promise. How can anyone have any respect for a Minister for Finance who sends out, as I am sure the Minister for Health was sent out, the Minister for Health to make such a solemn promise to a local authority and then, when his Budget comes, is not man enough to stand up and ensure that the promise is honoured as any Government of principle should honour the promises they made?

It is not as if the money is not there for these purposes. I indicated at the beginning that in buoyancy alone, without the Minister lifting a finger, there were £16 million extra revenue this year. In addition to that, the Minister for Finance in a substantial fiddle transferred revenue from last year to the current year for the purposes of being able to rig a Budget with the local elections in view. It is there as a result of the increased taxation of the last four years. A packet of 20 cigarettes that anyone buys now is costing about 10½d more in duty per packet than it cost four years ago. There was an increase of 3d in 1964, an increase of 3½d in 1965, an increase of 2d in 1966 and an increase of 2d in 1967. There is 10½d more on every packet of cigarettes every four years and the Minister for Finance could not provide enough money to enable the Minister for Health to honour his promise. Every pint of beer carries 5d more in duty than it carried four years ago. There was 1d tax in 1964, 1d in 1965, 2d in 1966 and 1d in the Budget of 1967. That is 5d more, or £5,850,000 on beer alone than there was four years ago.

Yet, there is not enough money to honour the promise of the Minister for Health. This year the motorist was spared any new imposition, thank goodness. Of course, those who are taxing their cars for the first time this year have to pay an additional 10d which was put on for Exchequer purposes by the Minister for Finance last year. Of course, they also have to pay the extra 10d duty on every gallon of petrol which was put on in 1964, 1965 and 1966, which brings in, even at the lowest figure for consumption in those years, £5 million. That is 10d a gallon out of every current gallon of petrol which goes to meet the additional cost that Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance put on in those years.

Some people are inclined to think that the Budget introduced this year by the Minister for Finance is a soft Budget. It is a soft Budget in so far as it only increased the taxes on tobacco and beer which let people off pretty lightly, according to Fianna Fáil standards. I wonder for how many months they will get off light. I wonder what will the reaction be; what will the position be when we come back here after the summer recess and when the local elections have been held. We will see then that the people were codded, as they were codded last year in relation to old age pensions, increases which were promised with such a flourish of trumpets before the Presidential election. It transpired when the Presidential election was over that nobody got that increase. Will we see a second Budget? After all, Fianna Fáil are expert at having more than one Budget in a year. There has rarely been a year in which they had only one Budget.

Perhaps, but I think it is too much to hope, in 1967 they will do penance. Perhaps they will start off on the road by making restitution in some degree to the hardpressed taxpayers from whom they have exacted far too much in recent years.

I have listened to Deputy Sweetman and he finished up by saying that somebody was trying to cod the people. I certainly could not understand him at all. He opened his speech by stating that there was a hidden surplus and he went on to quote the input to the Exchequer for the first two weeks of this year, quot-crease ing an increase of £4 million. He stated that that was hidden away and not put into the accounts, probably put into a little tin box, by the Minister so that it could be put into the fund this year. He said more than that. He said that the Government brought forward payments that should not be paid until 1967-68 and that these were paid in 1966-67 thereby reducing this surplus to something like £800,000. That surprises me because all this year, and, indeed, during the Budget speeches, the Opposition have been alleging that the Government have no money. They have been saying that grants are not being paid, and alleging that the country is not solvent. Yet, here we have Deputy Sweetman, a former Minister for Finance in the last inter-Party Government, suddenly discovering £16 million which the Minister for Finance is not getting from the Secretary of the Department of Finance or the officials there, as if this money can be easily spirited away. He went on to allege that this was a political stunt. One moment we are solvent and the next moment we are not.

Then he tells the public at large that when the elections are over the Government will bring in another Budget, and to watch out. That is the sort of speech we have had from Deputy Sweetman and, frankly, I was expecting more, especially as he was quoting from the NIEC Report and referring to the job which has to be done between now and 1980. If that is the type of contribution we must get from Deputy Sweetman, presuming his Party should ever get into power, God help the people when he could do so much here in a matter of an hour on this Budget speech.

I like this Budget. I like it for many things but principally because it is a searching one, and indeed clearly indicates that the man who introduced it turned over every section and every Department to ensure that any benefit that could be given was given. The fact that he did have a surplus must have pleased him because last year we all felt there would be a serious deficiency this year, but this was not the case and we ended up with a surplus of £800,000. Out of this, the Minister was able, with a little taxation—God knows, not too much—and an estimation for errors—to give to the public something like £8 million. Indeed, he also gave relief of £900,000 to the taxpaying sectors. Of course, this is most welcome. In addition, he gave—as an encouragement to industry —relief of £500,000 initial allowance on new plant and machinery.

But above all, the Minister did have in mind the west of Ireland. For that I must express my appreciation to him, he being a city man, for showing understanding and a realisation of the problem of the West. The additional benefits he has given there will be fully exploited, I am sure. Since the Budget was introduced, I have been asked by many people how they will go about getting these additional benefits, particularly in tourist and seaside resorts and in fishing areas. This gives me every reason to be confident that these increased tourist grants will be taken up quickly. The £100,000 provided for the country house holidays is a great encouragement because there are, across the water from us, thousands of workers who like the relaxing holiday to be found in our rural areas, particularly in the west of Ireland, where there are so many amenities available at little cost. This is something I welcome very much.

The Minister has provided also for an additional 5/- in social welfare benefits. This brings the total bill now under that heading to something like £42.5 million. One could never say we are pleased with the manner in which we deal with this section of our people but this Government, since they came into power, have not let a year pass without bringing something in for those classes. This additional 5/- has been welcomed by all sections. I have not heard anybody make criticism of it; rather they are too glad to get it.

The abolition of employment period orders is another benefit I welcome. I do not like paying unemployment assistance, although I do know, living in the town and country as I do, it is something you can never entirely abolish. Like many other people, I too prefer to see people working for what they get rather than getting something for nothing.

There are people living in urban areas who are in bad health and many of them should be removed entirely from the unemployment register. Many of the people I see getting that assistance are, in fact, unemployable. This has been done in other countries and it is something which could usefully be done here. Even small farmers who seek periodic work in their localities for a few weeks of the year, on roads or in forestry, cannot really be called unemployed people in the normal sense of the word. They are small farmers who want to supplement their farm income by some means for the latter part of the year. To inflate and keep up an unemployment register for these people does not reflect any healthy approach in this country and it is something I should like to see thoroughly examined. Those of them who can be employed should be made available for employment.

As one employer in the west of Ireland, I have rarely been able to find anybody from the local labour exchange whom my foreman would employ. There are people who come along and find employment but this is of the very limited type which does not call for initiative, output, or anything of that description. We find a lot of those people all over Ireland and I do not think it right that they should inflate the register. The scheme of extending payment the whole year round should, to my mind, be an incentive to small farmers with £4 valuation to increase their output. I should like to see the signing on of these small farmers abolished and rather make a payment direct to them, so that the opportunity they sometimes like of going into the local village to draw this money might not become an opportunity for abusing it and meeting their friends.

The old age pensioners are certainly entitled to their 5/- increase. All the farmers I know in this section who still have a right of residence in their home did not get the 5/- increase last November. I was never under any illusion about that 5/- when it was given. It was clearly stated in the House that this would be applied only on a means test of nil, and I think I know what "nil" means. I have my difficulties with farmers who feel they have nothing but, when you get down to examine their position, you find they have a lot more than they realise. Of course, the small farmer in the west of Ireland, a retired farmer, does not consider that the right of residence in his son's, daughter's, or brother's house is anything at all. As a matter of fact, the old traditional method in Ireland was that lodgings were given free and a traveller on the road never found any difficulty about getting a bed and something to eat. Very little value was put on that. Consequently, one can realise the difficulties which arose with this 5/- increase last autumn. People living in urban areas, paying rents, got it also and, of course, it was designed for them. A lot of people who without reading the Minister's speech, or indeed the provisions of the Act, assumed they would get it, could hardly blame this Government or anybody else.

I welcome the provision of £200,000 for land resettlement in pilot and other areas in the West. These pilot areas have, I gather, been making progress for some years. There is reason for us to be encouraged and to consider extending them. I hope this £200,000 will be by way of cash to the Land Commission so that they can solve this problem of small holdings from ten to 30 acres, buy them in and pay cash and re-arrange them as quickly as possible.

In all the areas of the West, not alone the pilot areas, you have this problem of small holdings being closed up for years and the Land Commission trying to make a deal with the owners and offering them land bonds. That has never been terribly satisfactory. When these people get land bonds, they cannot hold on to them and usually have to cash them for the best price they can get. Therefore, apart from the fact they usually suffer a loss on the sale, they are not in love with them. It would be a good idea to suggest at this stage that income tax should not be deducted from land bonds at source, that the person receiving interest will receive it in full and pay it along with the tax on any other income he may have. I know of one or two cases where the tax was stopped; the people concerned did not appeal but in fact they were not liable for any tax at all. What I propose would help the position greatly in the future.

A significant thing in this Budget is the boost for the tourist industry. I believe the figures for this year will show an income from tourism of about £80 million. Of all our industries none produces a quicker or better result than tourism. The people who visit here bring their money with them and almost all of it is left here. At present tourism provides employment in the West only during the summer months but I hope this will be extended later. The number of people seeking information about the new grants is an indication of the interest in them. I cannot give them a full reply because I have not yet got the full details myself.

I welcome this special treatment of the west of Ireland. It shows that the Government realise the problems of the West—the problem of small farms, of poor land and sometimes of isolation. Though some people may like to get away from it all, by and large, isolation is not very attractive to young people today, nor was it in my own day. It might be different after a few years and they might like to come back. Young people leave the country as a matter of form, but I am pleased to report that, where these young people can find employment at home, they remain. We have boys and girls who have returned to the West, married and settled down. I hope that will be the pattern for our young people in the future. It would be the happiest result for all. It can be achieved, but it cannot be assumed it will be easily achieved. It will take an effort by every section of the community to achieve it.

The fund to provide more hotel accommodation will certainly promote the tourist industry as well as helping family hotels to be maintained and to be developed in other areas. The increase in the grants for diningroom and kitchen accommodation—20 per cent for the remainder of the country and 30 per cent for the West—is very welcome and will give a great fillip to the industry. The increase in bedroom grants from 20 per cent to 40 per cent for the rest of the country and 50 per cent in the 12 western counties is welcome, particularly the latter. This is the type of attention I like to see the West getting. I like it because there are problems there and not just because I think we should listen to all the pleas made. Whenever anything is going by way of subsidy or grant, you have people crying out for it, parading their lack of this and that before the community and making comparisons with other sections so that they will get consideration.

The new provision in respect of caravan and camping sites is excellent. This type of holiday is becoming more popular each year. There is a need— I believe it is now being adequately catered for by the local authorities under the Planning Acts—for well laid out and properly serviced sites. This grant will help to provide more of these sites and will give more power to local authorities to ensure that standards are kept high and that the layout will be a pleasant one rather than what might be considered a bit of a slum.

The extraordinarily good treatment for the Gaeltacht areas by bringing the grants up to 70 per cent is very welcome. This is an opportunity to go into the Gaeltacht, get a building grant of up to 70 per cent, have a nice place to live and an opportunity of making a living that should prove attractive to men of enterprise.

Deputy Sweetman rightly welcomed the extension of the period for taxation relief in respect of mining from 1976 to 1986. In the past four or five years hardly a week passed that we did not hear of the Minister for Industry and Commerce granting prospecting licences. Some of these have thrown up profitable and economically workable quantities of ore. They are a substantial source of income and are helping our balance of payments. In addition, they are providing very valuable employment. There was an idea at one time that our mineral resources should be left in the ground until some future date. There was no merit in that. If it is an economically workable mineral, let us exploit it. The provision in this regard is welcome. It will be an encouragement to these prospectors, speculators, entrepreneurs, gamblers—call them what you like—who take the risk of the cost of exploration. We certainly would not get their efforts if we did not relax the noose that is sometimes put around their necks.

The special provision of 100 per cent initial allowance for depreciation on plant and machinery in western areas is one of the most significant items in the Budget. By and large, it does not catch the interest of Deputies because it means very little to them, but it means a considerable amount to the industrialist who has to pay out large sums of money for plant and machinery. Where a firm is making a profit—and there is not much point in writing things off if it is not making a profit—to write off the entire cost of the plant and machinery will be an incentive to such a firm to put money into plant and machinery and to increase its activities and the number in employment. This will bring excellent results, and it is something which the Federation of Irish Industries has been advocating for a long time.

In this regard I should like the Minister and his advisers to examine the possibility of encouraging, by way of grant, industrial enterprises, large or small, whether long-established or otherwise, which are natural to this country. Anything that would encourage the idea of expansion in the minds of the controllers of these small companies would be welcome. We could do with the experience of these small employers who have been in business over a long number of years. These people should get encouragement to expand and some means of helping them should be worked out. I know there is a 20 per cent replacement grant for obsolete machinery; that in itself is not what is necessary but rather a general examination of ways and means of helping them. I hope to deal with this matter when the Estimate for the Minister for Industry and Commerce comes before the House.

Another welcome innovation which has been lightly passed over is the relief in respect of medical expenses over £50 and up to £300. I should like the Minister to say whether this benefits the person who is in the Voluntary Health Scheme.

While the results of 1966-67 were nothing to shout about, they were a great deal better than we anticipated in the middle of the year. I did not think it would be possible to finish the year with a surplus. I thought we would have had a loss. The economy picked up in the latter half of the year, and it is anticipated that there should be an increase in gross national product of three or 3.5 per cent in the present year. One can best appreciate the results by looking back over the ten years that Fianna Fáil have been in power, examine the Budgets they have brought in and see what has been achieved by them. One can best plan for the future by looking at the record of the past. This, to some degree, is what the NIEC have been doing in the projections which they have made. I believe with Irish men and women of goodwill, it will be relatively easy to achieve what has been projected in these figures.

There is no doubt that a very great improvement is necessary in the quality of management. We find in this country that many of the personnel are psychologically unsuited for management, either by background or training. Many of them have neither the education nor the application for the job. Many people who could make a career in this direction tend to seek secure jobs rather than a job with an element of risk but, at the same time, with a large element of opportunity. As one who has close association with management, I may say they would want to be geniuses at times and people of a special calibre to meet the exigencies of each day. This is a difficult time in which to find oneself in management. I believe Irishmen can be and are being found to do this work but the salaries of Irishmen for these jobs must be raised. We have not heard much here about the brain-drain, but the fact remains that we have a brain-drain.

It is a brawn-drain.

We have a brawn-drain, too, for that matter. However, if we do not slow up the brain-drain, we will not slow up the brawn-drain. Trade unions would want to show maturity in all this. We have the finest workmen one will find anywhere. Give them the opportunity and they will do the work. The fact is that these workmen do not seem to get the kind of advice and counsel they should. This type of advice may exist at the top level of the trade unions but it does not seem to reach to the intermediate levels and to the shop floor. There one finds a provocative attitude. There one meets with demands that are unreasonable. I have been very lucky in all this. The secretaries of trade unions whom I have met have shown a high degree of intelligence and have been well able to manage certain types of worker, and manage them very fairly. I have seen instances though in which matters have been allowed to get out of hand.

Labour relations today are better than they ever were and, with cooperation on both sides, we should be able to get closer still. I prefer to look at this as the Americans do. The Americans look upon every employer as an employee of his company. The ordinary worker does not think the executive overpaid if he gets 500,000 dollars because he himself is earning good money. That is a healthy reaction. The American accountant gives a clear, factual picture of the total capital involved and, on that total, he wants a return. Very often a large proportion of shareholders is constituted of the workers. This type of capitalist state works very well in America and it provides the social benefits needed.

When we talk about progressive countries we invariably look to America. We know there are black spots, as there are black spots in every country. All the American worker is concerned with is a reasonable share of the profits and, when he gets that, he is satisfied. We could do with a little more of this get-together that exists in America. There is no cap-in-hand attitude about the American worker whereas Irish workers are still inclined to come in, as it were, cap-in-hand. No matter how friendly one is, they persist in "Yes, sir" and "No, sir". No one wants these titles. The worker is doing his job. That is all one wants. I tell my workers they are not working for me; they are working for themselves. I could not get on without them. I, for my part, want a good product and a job well done. I look upon my workers as mates. That is the type of society I want to see in this country. I believe we can get it and, if we do, we will achieve the targets we hope to achieve by 1980 or 1977.

I am very pleased with the progress in housing and even more pleased to see £24 million provided in the Capital Budget. There is an upsurge in the demand for housing. More and more people find themselves with the means to buy houses. I trust the provision of this money will help to provide more homes for our people in the current year. There has been a good deal of unfair criticism. All kinds of adjectives have been applied to builders and speculators, mainly by those who do not take the trouble to examine the matter properly.

I am a builder. I am also a manufacturer. I build in London. I build in Dublin. I employ something like 700 people in the West. I have built something like 3,000 houses. I have to buy land, arrange the finance, develop the land, build the houses and find purchasers for them. I must make a success of my business. There is no place for failures. If one does not show a profit, one will not last very long in any business. It pains me to see builders going broke and it pains me to hear Deputies viciously criticise builders. They give a valuable service to the community. They provide valuable employment and they merit praise rather than blame.

Land in the suburbs of London is fetching £10,000 to £15,000 per acre. To describe the man who fortuitously lives near Dublin and has 50 or 100 acres of land for sale as a gangster because he takes the market value is, in my opinion, nothing short of vicious slander. Builders have to pay the market price. Headlines were given in the press last week to a speech made here by a certain Deputy. I am glad to be numbered amongst the builders. We have made a concrete contribution to the society in which we live. My workers are very happy; so are the purchasers of my houses. Describing builders as gangsters is something to be ashamed of and I should like to take this opportunity to dispel an impression that might have been created by certain statements that were made.

If I do not pay for the land by the closing day, I must pay interest at the rate per cent prevailing. The same applies to houses. If I do not pay my income tax in time, I pay one per cent per month to the Revenue Commissioners. If I borrow money from any hire purchase company, I pay interest at the rate of anything from 12 to 15 per cent. I found myself in the position that to keep myself going, I had to borrow large sums of money costing a lot of interest. It was a matter of doing business and doing it properly. People were not able to pay half the price of the house when the roof was on and the other half when it was finished. The rate of interest was seven per cent. I make no apology.

This was described as Rachmanism. I wonder if the people who used the word "Rachmanism" really studied where the word came from. As I understand it, there was a gentleman in London called Rachman. He bought up properties in or around London and put in undesirable people to those houses so as to terrorise or chase out people who were there. Certainly this allegation is wrong. If I am accused of being a Rachman just because I charged interest on moneys that should have been paid on a due date, then, believe me, I am in very good company. The State itself is involved in this question of charging interest, the banks are charging interest and indeed the Members of this House, if they do not charge interest, certainly pay interest if they borrow money from any source. I do not know of anybody who will make money available to you free.

We hear a lot about builders and speculators taking advantage of the present demand for homes. This, I can assure the House, is largely untrue. The one major source of money for housing in Ireland is through the local authority, that is, the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. They have set a seal on the amount they will lend and on the type of person to whom they will lend and it is within that target that builders must keep if they hope to be able to sell their houses. There is little use in building houses unless you have buyers and no use in having buyers unless they are able to get loans to pay for the houses. I think members of Fine Gael and the Labour Party are too well aware of this position.

I listened to Deputy Sweetman accusing the Minister of faking the figures, carrying forward from last year to this year £4 million. He said the Minister paid out last year what should be paid out this year and that this carried up to £16 million. It is a big change from 1957. If the Minister of that day had the ability to manipulate the finances, one is surprised he did not do a better job on it instead of leaving the position as it was. The reverse was the position then. I should like to point out to the Opposition and to those who chose to criticise the conditions of today that the conditions were worse then. I saw an unfortunate worker put down his deposit and before the house was finished, he had lost his job and left the country. I saw the notices in the papers that these unfortunate workers had handed back their keys to the county council and/or corporation and those houses were taken over and sold.

We get speeches from people in this House accusing one of the soundest sections of our industrial life, that is, the building trade and its allied industries.

I think the allegation was made only in regard to a section of the building trade, not all of it.

It is a reflection on the workers also. I want to hammer this home. I apologise to nobody for wanting to keep my business, to keep employment for my workers and to defend myself. I have nothing to hide or to be ashamed of. I run a legitimate business in a legitimate way. I build houses and have built houses. As a matter of fact, I choose to call myself one of the best builders in Dublin at the present moment and I provide the most economical houses. The houses my company have in mind did not need much selling. They were sold for £3,100 net with a deposit of £402. The purchasers are now selling them at a profit. Are we going to tell those people they cannot make £400 or £500 profit on the resale of the houses if they want to? That is the position we find in regard to the building trade.

The building trade is one that we hope will be kept healthy and strong. It is not a trade that reacts very kindly to stop-go conditions but stop-go conditions have a colossal effect on it as it can cause fears and uncertainties in the minds of workers and others in the trade. I hope the present ten years of good substantial Government with gradual build-up in the building trade and allied industries associated with it will long continue, and that the Minisster for Local Government in his Estimate will provide this year money for drainage schemes so that more building land will be available. If that decreased the price of land, I would like to see it. In 1956-57 the price of land was £1,000 to £1,200 an acre. Despite the slump in housing land prices did not drop even though more land was available and they did not sell for many years. There is no indication that farmers or owners will be stampeded into selling unless they get what they think is reasonable. The present price is around £3,000. There may be spots that are a lot higher but that is the ordinary fringe development land around the city of Dublin.

I would like to see local authorities throughout Ireland making a better effort to build more houses for the people. I am particularly critical of the county council of my own county, Sligo. I take it ill from Deputies from that constituency coming in and talking here and being, I think they were described as "moaning Willies" and I think they are. Deputy Gilhawley came in here and described our industries in Sligo as pocket industries. He went on to say that we want a heavy industry. One wonders whether he knows what a heavy industry is. If he describes the little industries in Tubbercurry and Collooney which are a mere ten miles from him in Bailymote as pocket industries I do not know what he has in mind. He must have something like Harland and Wolff's in Belfast in mind for Sligo.

My colleague, Deputy Gilbride, and myself led a deputation which was received by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Labour in connection with having Sligo made a development centre about two months ago. There was a feature on television about it at that time. We waited for a while for Deputy Gilhawley but he did not turn up. One is not surprised at his remarks——

Deputy who?

His pal from Ballymote.

Deputy Gilhawley. Deputy McLaughlin spoke on the Budget and the only benefits he saw in the Budget were the pensions increase and land derating. He missed all the other 15 or 16 points. Land derating, of course, is something we all welcome. It is a measure that is appreciated but enough has been said about it without my talking about it. Deputy McLaughlin should have welcomed the increased grant for tourist development because he comes from a county, it is also my county, which is peculiarly suitable for tourist development. The whole of North Leitrim has many beautiful spots and many things to recommend it.

While I am on the subject I would ask the Minister for Finance please to open a road into Fermanagh from Kiltyclogher. Here is a beautiful area and anything that can be done to make a road in there so that people do not have to go 30 or 40 miles away and avoid Kiltyclogher the better. This is a lovely area, a great area for fishing. The scenery is rugged and delightful and of a type that can quickly be developed. I am quite surprised at Deputy McLaughlin. I listened to the names of the districts from which he said people came to him. I could not help remembering the people who came to me. For example, one man from Loughmacnean wanted a grant for development. Another man came to me from Loughmelvin. I wonder why those people came to me when Deputy McLaughlin lives right beside them. Deputy McLaughlin moans too much and has little hope for Leitrim. If, instead, he would see the good in a Budget, he would do a far better job for Leitrim, for the country and for himself.

Deputy Gilhawley says that the only industry in Ballymote is the railway station. He says that these people are taking all the young people away. I expect they are, except those to whom I give employment in Tubbercurry. A lot of people in the Ballymote and Collooney areas come to me. I cannot employ all of them. Deputy Gilhawley should try to attract some industry to Ballymote rather than come in here as a moaning Willy, which is what he has done since he first entered this House. He becomes poetic on the subject of emigration from the West. He is quick, nonetheless, to say of any benefits which are given that he was responsible for getting them. This is really most remarkable. He gets the benefits but the Government, who give them, must be given no recognition.

I welcome this Budget. It is the first of a searching, seeking type to give relief, to give help, where it is needed and to the sections which need it. There is no doubt that the small farmer welcomes this Budget and will continue to welcome it. The social welfare classes also welcome this Budget. There is no doubt that the people in the west of Ireland welcome this Budget. There is no doubt in my mind that the people in the tourist industry, and the people engaged in industry generally who have hopes of expansion, welcome this Budget, because, among other things, of the depreciation relief of from 40 to 50 per cent throughout the country and even more in the west of Ireland. It will result in the creation of a lot of industries for which, heretofore, we were just sitting back and waiting. It will instil a sense of urgency in the people concerned to get on with the job.

If this is the first Budget the Minister, Deputy Haughey, has introduced, I hope it will be one of many and that he will carry on in the years ahead what he has introduced this year for the first time.

I have listened with interest to an apologia for builders. It is regrettable that Deputy Gallagher, with his vast interests in London, Dublin and elsewhere, and his concern for the tourist areas of Sligo and Leitrim, finds himself so disappointed, so overburdened, so embarrassed by having Irish workers calling him "Sir" and that, of course, would include the electors of Sligo-Leitrim. I do not propose to follow this apologia for builders or for a section of builders in this country. My only feeling, in the course of this trenchant denunciation by Deputy Gallagher of anybody who would dare to criticise the building industry to which he belongs, is that methinks the Deputy doth protest too much. I am prepared to leave it at that.

A Budget is or should be a financial statement in the first place but it should, of course, be a little more— indeed, a good deal more than that. Not alone should it be an accurate and correct statement of the nation's financial affairs but it should outline, within itself, a programme and be not merely a narrative of stagnation and a narrative of hope to hold the line. It should be a programme full of incentives, full of initiative, with an overall design to spur the nation's people into activity of a profitable kind so that targets one would hope to achieve in all the fields of the nation's activity would be realised within a given time or within a reasonable approximation of that time.

Although, from my point of view, representing a west of Ireland constituency, there are proposals in this Budget which I welcome, nevertheless I do not find this Budget, as a whole, one that will cause any kind of active upsurge on the part of the people. It is not a Budget which will give hope. This is a Budget which might be described as one littered with political alms, a Budget designed, conceived and put into execution prior to the local elections. It is not an account of all the expenses either by way of increasing costs or by way of indirect taxation imposed upon the whole of our people for the whole of the year. We have had two examples—an increase in ESB charges and, in another case, an increase in the price of bread —of which this Budget takes no cognisance at all.

Those of us in this House who are not probably top-class economists or top-class accountants must be somewhat shocked by the statement of a Minister for Finance that, in all probability, there will be in this Budget a net over-estimation of £4 million. Quite frankly, as somebody who does not understand the heavy complications of the fiscal code, I should find it very pleasant if, at the end of the year, I found in my personal life a net error in my favour of corresponding dimensions.

There is a fault in this Budget, as indeed in every Budget brought in so far or that I know of, that taxation is immediate but benefits are deferred. Apart altogether from any kind of scoring of political points, it is time the Minister for Finance so arranged matters that taxation and benefits were simultaneous in their application. The pensioner who smokes and the pensioner who drinks is asked to pay extra taxation straight away but must be content to do without an increase in pension for months ahead. I do not see the sense in that kind of thing.

In agriculture, of course, it has been said, and it has been printed long before now, that this derating of agricultural land up to a valuation of £20, with relevant reliefs by way of a sliding scale for valuations up to £33, must be welcomed. It is the policy on this side of the House to derate valuations up to £25. Nevertheless we welcome this as a move in the direction in which we think the finances of the country should be channelled. Is it enough to do for our community? In the west of Ireland and elsewhere in the country, a high percentage of our land was already derated. This will probably mean very little by way of an annual sum for the benefit of the small-holder. However, it will assist him in other ways. I am surprised that in view of rural depopulation and the consequent suffering in our towns where industries have not yet been established the Minister and the Government did not consider some plan to relieve those persons who cannot find employment, or to relieve the small shopkeeper of this ever-increasing burden of rates if he puts in even an extra nail. Deputy Sweetman spoke about the high increase in rates.

In one village in my constituency an excellent job of work has been done by all the business people, the village of Mulrany on the way to Achill which is a treat to look at. Every owner of a house in that village has expended considerable sums of money—hard-earned money, in most instances. They now find themselves with this crippling increase in their rates. This is not a great help to tourism. In these areas if an increase in rates is essential for the upkeep of local government services, there should be a sliding scale such as we have in relation to Gaeltacht housing. It should start at one-tenth and go up to two-tenths and so on over a period of years. As I said, in this village people have expended considerable amounts of money, and they are probably still making repayments to whatever source from which they were able to borrow. A high increase in rates on top of that is not an incentive towards tourist or any other kind of activity.

Agriculture generally has been assisted in this Budget. Perhaps it has been assisted to the limit to which the Minister could go in the circumstances in which he found himself. Nevertheless, agriculture is in a very dangerous position. I am not now referring to agitation. I am referring to the position of agriculture vis-á-vis markets for its produce, livestock and vegetables. While I am on that point, I want to put a query to the Minister about the Erin Foods and Heinz——

I think it has been stated that it is not a merger.

Association.

Some kind of association. The Minister says it will give a relief to vegetable growers from the point of view of markets. My query is: is this association merely giving a monopoly to the Heinz group with regard to Irish vegetable produce? If so, can the Heinz group, worldwide and powerful as they are, dictate the price to the Irish vegetable grower by simply saying to him: "We can get these things so much cheaper in any place you care to mention around the world"? Is it going to be a matter of the vegetables being taken by the Heinz group at the Heinz group price, or will the Irish grower still be in a position to command his own price?

Would that not be negotiated with Erin Foods, irrespective of Heinz?

I do not know. I want a clear exposition of exactly what the position is. It got only about ten lines in the Minister's speech where he said:

The new partnership between Erin Foods and Heinz for the development of exports of food products offers an assurance of a market for vegetables and other produce which will provide a basis for more intensive and profitable exploitation of small farms. This is especially important in the case of holdings which because of their size or type cannot be made viable by pursuing other forms of enterprise.

I made a full statement about it in the House.

I see the value of that statement and I see the results the Minister wants to achieve for small farms which cannot otherwise be made viable. I want the Minister to make it clear what the position is, whether it is a merger or an association and whether Heinz will have a monopoly of our vegetables at their price. That is all I want made clear.

We have nothing in this Budget to deal with the problem of health. There is nothing here to redeem the promises of the former Minister for Health, nothing to assist the present Minister to redeem the promises of the former Minister for Health. There is nothing to assist in the matter of this tremendous growth of our rates levy attributable to health only. For education we have a reference to the post-primary scheme of the Minister for Education which we hope will go well. This Budget speech came out too early to have any reference to university education and this desire to save money, which is one of the reasons given for a merger between a university in Dublin and a constituent college of National University. I hope that whatever happens in that regard, the remaining three constituent colleges of National University, in Cork, Maynooth and Galway, will not lose any of their status and will be of equal importance in their vis-á-vis autonomy as any new arrangement in the city of Dublin.

In local government over the years, we have all been having trouble with the payment of grants at departmental level and supplementary grants from the local authorities.

Incidentally, we had a lot of trouble —and I am sure I am not alone in this —in getting the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to pay the heifer scheme grant. I had one case in which there could be no earthly reason for the non-payment of the grant except stalling for time. Although the amount involved was small, the aggregate of such amounts which were the subject matter of stalling must have been considerable. We now have, of course, fewer people on the land. We still have the problem of unemployment and of emigration and, of course, they have been paid their perennial lip-service in this Budget. Indeed, in his maiden speech in the 1920s, Deputy Lemass, the former Taoiseach, laid special emphasis on the twin evils of emigration and unemployment and said they were matters which would have to be tackled. The Fianna Fáil Party had ample opportunity over many years to deal with these twin problems and the result over the past ten years has been, from the point of view of emigration, to get rid of about 300,000 people and in regard to unemployment, having regard to that exodus, an unemployment figure still standing at an extremely high level.

It amused me to hear Deputy Gallagher speaking about 1956 and 1957 and unemployment and all the rest of it. I suddenly remembered that it was in the political year of 1956-57 that the Government to which Deputy Corish and I belonged gave a substantial grant to Deputy Gallagher's factory in Tubbercurry.

I was at the opening of it.

Yet we had this piece of audacity in referring to it this evening. However, there is no point in interfering with industrial megalomania. In regard to social welfare, we welcome the 5/- for old age pensioners. The only thing I see wrong with it is that they are not getting it at once. The provisions in regard to transport, lighting and power for pensioners mark a very good change in the Budget. It shows a certain enlightened attitude towards these old people for whom some of us have been pleading for a great number of years. We do not want to claim credit for it; we welcome it as something that should have happened long ago. We are delighted that it has happened even now.

In regard to the employment period orders in rural Ireland. I recall the first change which was made in this regard. The first rateable valuation that constituted the barrier in relation to this employment period order for summer months for small holdings was £2. That was increased around 1948 or 1949 and has not been increased since. It is a good thing that this has been removed altogether now. It was a source of irritation in rural Ireland where a man with a valuation of £3 19s was able to get this benefit all the year round, whereas the man with a valuation of £4 or even £4 0s 6d could not get it. Certainly it was not an incentive to any man to produce, either to the man who was getting it or to the man who was not getting it. I should like to see—and I advocated this long before I came into this House —this particular form of assistance being attached to the small holding and made part of it. In this I agree with Deputy Gallagher. Smallholders who are living four, five or six miles from the local exchange, or the local Garda station, should not be compelled to come in and sign for their unemployment. Everybody knows that in a vast number of parishes in the west of Ireland there is absolutely no work available. The only work available would be with the county council or the Land Commission, or the Board of Works, as we called it before it disappeared from rural Ireland.

If the Minister is here next year, he should do something about tidying up this particular aspect of social assistance so that it would not carry the label of unemployment but rather a subsidy attaching to a holding. I am not so sure that I would not encourage him to have the local agricultural officer visit these places and while the subsidy should be a reasonable one, nevertheless the cleaning of drains, the removal of rushes and the general improvement of the holding should be a condition precedent to the subsidy being continued. In that regard I find myself in some agreement with Deputy Gallagher.

The Minister has said, in regard to western development, that everything must be done to preserve the west of Ireland. Are you simply going to preserve it as it is, or are you going to try to restore it to something like what it was? There are a few things which the Minister can do straight away to assist this preservation. He can get on to the Minister for Lands and the Land Commission and get them to adopt a realistic policy about commonages, commonage division and the fencing of commonages, so that people can get going. He can see that the Land Commission will not be imposing exorbitant annuities over a long number of years in return for whatever fencing or other work they might do. I thought that the Land Act was brought in for the purpose of cutting a lot of the strings which were preventing progress but as far as I can see it has only added to them. That is one of the ways by which he could make progress.

I welcome the grants for hotels and farmhouse accommodation and the fact that the Minister for Transport and Power is very interested in this. If he is all that interested, then he should know that there are houses, good houses with good sanitary amenities, which have not got light and power because of the prohibitive special service charge imposed by the ESB. Here is where the Minister for Transport and Power could assist the Minister for Finance and show his interest by getting light and power into these places so that the tourists could stay in them. We all know that the beautiful scenery of this country is on the by-road and the back road and these are the roads into which the ESB will not go.

He explained all that in his Estimate speech.

He has explained it in the same way over the past ten years.

That is what I am trying to tell the Deputy.

When grants are being made available for hotels in western areas and in the Gaeltacht areas we should be very clear on what this means. Does it mean that somebody in Dublin or some of the bigger towns with a bit of capital can go to the Gaeltacht area in my constituency and buy a tract of land—which can be bought cheaply enough—and say: "This is it," and apply for and get the supplementary grants from the Gaeltacht Department? I do not think he will. In fact, I know of a case where people living in the Gaeltacht are finding great difficulty, due to this bureaucratic control at the moment. I hope something will be done about it because it is one of the things that dissuade people from investing when they come up against it. They think there are advantages for them; they get architects and quantity surveyors and go through all the necessary preliminaries and present their plans. In this respect, let me say I think the response of Bord Fáilte is admirable to any worthwhile plan. I know cases where they have responded straight away and put no obstacle in the path. They have even tried to assist in getting the Gaeltacht Department to come to the rescue, without any great results.

There is this other fund to which the Minister referred in which he used have about £20,000 for what he called special assistance for worthwhile projects. He has increased that to £250,000 and I am delighted to see that increase because I shall certainly be making representations on behalf of people in my constituency to get reasonable slices of that quarter million pounds.

The Minister has talked about county development teams and putting them on a permanent basis. I would have no great objection to that if they stopped surveying. All the time is being spent doing surveys, making critical analyses, writing reports, making returns of all kinds and consulting with local voluntary bodies. Nothing is being done and that is because the money has not been put at the disposal of the county development secretaries. Nothing has been discovered in any survey yet, if I may be pardoned for dealing with my own constituency, and I think I can ramble through it just as Deputy Gallagher rambled from Kiltyclogher to Enniscrone in Sligo-Leitrim, while these surveys are going on. Taking the particular part of County Mayo for which I have representative responsibility, I want to tell the Minister straight away of projects towards which he can direct some of this £250,000: a major fishing port in either Blacksod or Broadhaven Bay; hotels on the coast and beside scenic lakes or fishing rivers; a creamery centre at Ballina. He could also see that this pilot area which as Minister for Agriculture he promised at Ballycroy gets under way. Nothing very much has happened yet—and I am being remarkably forbearing on this— up to about a fortnight ago, apart from one visit from the county agricultural officer.

In this regard also in the west of Ireland I think there must be a review of the planning position and of the application of the Planning Act which is causing considerable trouble and irritating people. The Minister could provide berthing and landing facilities at a place called Darby's Point in Achill. The Minister will recall that name from many Parliamentary Questions. He could extend the forestry on the bogland between Crossmolina and Ballycastle and create another forest belt from Lacken Cross to Ballycastle. He could do something about the increase in rates in the towns, particularly where there is no corresponding increase in income by way of industrial or other kind of growth. He could see that the appropriate authorities get going with our vocational schools and so on in Mulrany and Newport. That covers my constituency and these are things that are well known to everybody as being necessary. I am surprised that Deputy Calleary has not told the Minister about them already.

Even at the Party meeting.

Nothing seems to have happened about them. Reference was made by the Minister to EEC. It is becoming fashionable now to include EEC in every speech.

It has only become fashionable again; it used be fashionable about four years ago.

It is becoming so fashionable that I am afraid it will soon become almost decadent to refer to it. The Minister dealt towards the end of his statement with culture and leisure. We have given some consideration to the problem of youth and of youthful entertainment provided by themselves or under direction. It is a subject to which probably greater thought could be given but in general I do not share the view that this sort of thing is necessary because of any kind of universally wrong trends demonstrated in the youth of today. Just because a couple of long-haired fellows get some sort of publicity or because some few run riot across the city and do a certain amount of damage, it is not to be regarded as a general indictment of our boys and girls. In the times in which we live and with the temptations to which our young people are subject and the opportunity there is for falling, they are great not to go down twice as much as in the past. I think they are great.

I want to come to a sentence within this paragraph headed "culture and leisure". I do not like this and I am sure the Minister does not like it, whether he put it in himself or it was put in for him. This is the perennial tribute to the Irish language. In dealing with the necessity for the provision of an adequate variety of cultural and recreational facilities for young people so as to raise the general standard, the Minister quite properly says it would be unthinkable to abandon people to the monotony of a working life unrelated to stimulus of cultural and intellectual activities. That is grand, a very pious and very worthy objective. The next sentence goes like this:

Fortunately we have in the Irish language and in its promotion and development a great field for cultural development which it will be my special responsibility to foster.

And that is that. We shall watch carefully during the year to see how much that sentence means, because I am strongly of the view that that kind of little one-sentence lip service from time to time is the thing that is causing considerable irritation among the people vis-à-vis our language. That is the only thing about it in the whole business.

If the Minister wants to do something about leisure, he will find guidance in many places. He will find many examples. The first I came across was a whole dissertation, On Leisure, by Aristotle which is a tremendous piece of work and has been studied by many people, particularly by heads of schools and people responsible for the direction of youth during leisure hours. It is simply On Leisure and it was done by Aristotle very many years ago. There are other commentaries on leisure that would be extremely useful to the Minister who will find, if he looks for it, that some of the vocational authorities operate under a plan as old as that of Aristotle. It is a praiseworthy aspiration to say that we will look after our youth and pay them some attention.

Altogether, the Budget, while it gives a little here and a little there, fails to get beyond economic stagnation or to hold the line of our present condition. I think the Minister was capable of something better than that—in other directions to do something of an appreciable, tangible nature—something that might make an impact on the economy here and there instead of trying by small bites everywhere to do absolutely nothing.

I am glad to see that coming towards the end of the Budget debate, we have also come to the end, I hope, of an agitation throughout the country that was giving considerable trouble. I am pleased to see that the Taoiseach, on the one hand, and those responsible, on the other hand, are following the road of law and order; but I think the greater mistakes were made on the side of the Government, and the Taoiseach's outburst during the past few days in this respect is a sign that all is not well within his Cabinet. I might venture to say that he is, in all of this picture, politically in the same position as vocally is Sandie Shaw—"A Puppet on a String".

I join with the Deputies who have congratulated the Minister on the Budget. The speech we have just heard from Deputy Lindsay, with all his legal training, has been in many respects a compliment to the Minister. He found more sentences to say he welcomed this and welcomed that than to criticise the Budget Statement. As far as my constituency is concerned— we all speak here for our own; all the Deputies here have spoken of their own constituencies and their particular problems—the Budget has been very favourably received by all sections of the community, particularly by the small farmers, and about 85 per cent of the farmers of County Galway have valuations of less than £20.

In the first instance, I consider this Budget to be an instrument of social justice because at the very beginning it has taken cognisance of the people who are on pension. About a month before the Budget was introduced, I, like other Deputies, had representations from retired pensioners such as gardaí, teachers, civil servants and others, people living on small pensions who have not benefited by the eighth, ninth or tenth rounds of wage increases. Deputy Molloy and I put a question to the Minister at the time as to having such people considered when preparing his Budget. He replied to us favourably and I am glad that he has now considered the problems of such people by increasing their pensions from 1st August.

I am glad also that the Minister did not forget the old age pensioners and the widows and orphans. Like all Fianna Fáil Ministers for Finance before him, he thought sympathetically of the problems of those people when preparing his financial statement. Those people are grateful to him for the benefits he conferred on them in the Budget. I also wish to join with those Deputies who complimented him on having the employment period order extended throughout the entire year. However, I suggest that it would be well if this order were modified—other Deputies have suggested this—to have it applied to small holdings. I think it was the Bishop of my diocese who first advocated this, suggesting that it should not be called a dole but a subsidy to smallholders to enable them and their wives and families to continue to live in the congested parts of Ireland.

With other speakers, I welcome the income tax concessions in regard to children's allowances. The previous Budget gave that concession in respect of children of more than 11 years. This year he has extended it a step further to cover the whole family. He has also brought in the concession in regard to health expenses. This will be a great boon to many families not in the lower income group who have to pay very heavy health expenses for, perhaps, the wage earner himself, his wife and some of his children. With this concession he will be able to recoup at least some of that heavy outlay.

The greatest of all concessions has been given to the farmers. Before I come to that, however, I should like to thank the Minister for the extra benefits he has given to old age pensioners not only by way of increased pensions but in respect of electric lighting and travel. Like some of the other speakers, I have to say that unfortunately in the West we all have not got the benefit of electricity and I ask the Minister to help out the Minister for Transport and Power to see that those who still have not got electric current—there are many old age pensioners in backward areas who still have not got it—are connected at the same rate as was extended to those who now enjoy this great blessing.

It is no use saying we are giving free electric light to old age pensioners who still have not got electric current in their houses. I am sure that if an extra charge were put on the 70 or 80 per cent or more who have it in order to extend it to the small minority who are left out, if something could be worked out to extend this boon and blessing to the people who are already paying for it in subsidies for those who already have it, those people could enjoy the advantages of it themselves. It is too bad when they have children going to national schools—I know cases of this—and other children in the class have the electricity supply, have television and so forth while they are left out. This small minority of children cannot enjoy many of those amenities, even though their parents could supply them, because they are not connected with the ESB and will not be connected without paying a very heavy, exorbitant special charge. If those people got supply at the same rate as all other users throughout the country, they would be glad to avail of it and to have all those amenities and services for their families.

The greatest thing for the west of Ireland in this Budget is the derating of agricultural land under £20 valuation. As I said previously, there must be up to 85 per cent of the farmers in my county with a valuation of under £20. The small farmer has always been the backbone of the nation and has always stood by this nation. In the old days when we were fighting for the abolition of the land annuities, it was the small farmers who stood behind the nation at that time. We know that in spite of the then Opposition who wanted to continue payment of those annuities, the Leader of our Party and our Government halved the annuities for the small farmers. The small farmers again stood behind the country at the time of the Second World War when we had to bring in compulsory tillage. The small farmers had not to be compelled. They tilled more than their quota. The big farmers—I know many of them—tilled and sowed but they never reaped. They did that in order to comply with the order. They did not want this compulsory tillage. They preferred to see our young men killed in Europe and in North Africa rather than have them stay at home and grow wheat and other crops. At that time the small farmers stood behind the nation and Fianna Fáil.

I am glad to see in this Budget— we halved the annuities in the past— that we are now completely derating land of under £20 valuation. This will be of great benefit to 85 per cent of the farmers in my county. They will have no rates to pay now on their land. There is a sliding scale from that figure up to £33 valuation which will cover the vast majority of the farmers in my county. That therefore, as I said, is a big boon to the farmers in the west of Ireland. I am very glad that in this Budget the Minister turned his eyes towards the West. He has done that also in the concessions given to tourism.

I trust the Minister will keep his eyes towards the West and give more subsidies to the small farmers and smallholders. We read in the papers during the past few days of big farmers having 700 and 800 acres of land, and more. Many of them have more land than half a parish in my constituency and some of them have more land than nearly a whole parish in my constituency. Those big farmers are getting big subsidies. They are getting £500 or £600 relief in rates, grants of up to £500 for Land Project schemes and the heifer scheme, big subsidies for fertilisers and for manuring their land. Some of the subsidies which some of those farmers are getting would be enough for half a parish in my constituency of East Galway. Despite all this, those big farmers say they cannot live. Some of them have big palaces and live like the landlords of olden times.

I hope the Minister for Lands will give attention to those people. We will send some of the migrants from the west of Ireland up to them. We will then find that they will be able to make a very good living on the holdings on which some of those big land-holders say they are unable to make a living. I have advocated all along that subsidies should be given to the small man. It is a shame that we should be paying taxes to provide subsidies for lime and manure for big farmers. Those big farmers get one ton of manure free whereas the small farmers with big families and paying taxes and subsidies on that will get only one cwt because they have only small holdings. All those subsidies should be directed towards the small farmers. If that were done previously, the heifer grant would not have been abused. The grant should have been £20 for the first two heifers, £10 for the next two and £5 after that for a limited amount. This would have ensured that this scheme would not have been abused by the big farmer. It would also have meant that the small farmer would have benefited greatly from it. If I were Minister for Agriculture or Minister for Finance, I would have a ceiling there and would give the big subsidy to the small man.

That trend is here now in this Budget with the derating of the first £20 valuation of land. I hope that trend continues and that the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture and the other Ministers concerned will open their eyes and turn towards the West. If the West gets the assistance, it will save itself, and there will be no need for this moaning and crying about saving the West. This is the first Budget Deputy Haughey, as Minister for Finance, has brought in. If he brings in more Budgets with this help for the small farmers and with his eyes towards the west of Ireland, he will do a good day's work for this country and this nation. I hope he will be spared to bring in many more Budgets such as this.

Despite the fact that the Minister and various speakers from the Government side of the House have tried to magnify the concessions contained in this Budget and have attempted, in their usual manner, to present a picture which is not really true, I think on a detailed examination of the various provisions of this Budget, and particularly when we look at it as an instrument of economic policy, we will realise that on the whole this Budget is very deficient. Certainly there is nothing in it to indicate a new thinking on the more serious economic and social problems which confront us at the present time. There is no evidence in it to show that the Government have learned any lesson from the hopeless failure of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

Most people expected that the Minister when introducing the Budget would have availed himself of the opportunity to give some information as to the progress made in the examination and reassessment of the Second Programme in the light of the failure to reach the targets made in most sectors. In my opinion, the most serious defect in the Budget is the absence of any new dynamic approach to what can be termed the great crisis in the agricultural industry.

The concessions granted to agriculture in this Budget, despite what Fianna Fáil Deputies may say, are merely stop-gap measures. They are stop-gap measures which the Government were forced to concede as a result of determined and prolonged agitation by the farmers' organisations. Other than those minor concessions, however, there is nothing by way of realistic long-term planning, the realistic long-term planning which is now so necessary if we are to lift agriculture out of the doldrums into which it has been driven by the policy pursued by the Government over the past few years.

I am amazed that there are no special emergency measures in the Budget to solve the problems in the bacon industry, which have resulted in the closure in my constituency, in Limerick city, of one of the oldest established industries in this country, Messrs. Mattersons Bacon Curers. It is a terrible indictment of the economic policy of this Government that an industry such as that, processing the raw material of the land, an industry enjoying an international reputation for the quality of its products, should, because of the failure of Government agricultural policy, be forced to close down for want of an adequate supply of raw materials, in this case, the pig.

We are led to believe that there are difficulties in other factories in this particular industry. Yet, beyond a minor concession by way of price increase, there is nothing in the Budget to show that the Government mean to tackle this problem. Following a year of unprecedented unrest among the farming community and the abundant evidence everywhere of the growing problems in agricultural production, we find it very difficult to understand why the Minister for Finance, who should know the situation because it is not very long since he was Minister for Agriculture, did not in this, his first Budget, face up to the severe problems affecting our most important industry, agriculture.

I have already said that there are certain minor—as I prefer to call them—concessions given to agriculture. However, so far as my constituency is concerned, and in so far as the farmers of my native county of Limerick are concerned, there is an increase of 1d per gallon in the price of milk delivered to creameries. This 1d a gallon increase is totally inadequate. We seem to lose sight of the fact that our dairy farmers are receiving the lowest price for their milk in Western Europe and that in the past few years, particularly in the past two years, the dairy farmers in the creamery areas have been fighting a continuous battle against rising costs. This year and last year, there is not a man who has not suffered a severe income loss by reason of the drastic reduction in calf prices. Yet all the Minister can offer is 1d per gallon in the price of milk.

I realise and I am bearing in mind the fact that an extra 1d is being given on the quality milk, that is, milk which passes the methylene blue test, that the farmers with milk passing that test get 2d a gallon. I had confidently expected, bearing in mind the low prices our farmers are receiving for milk, that is, milk for manufacturing purposes, milk delivered to creameries, and the serious difficulties they have had to encounter and the all-time low prices received for calves this spring, that the Minister would have given at least 4d a gallon.

Extra taxation.

The Deputy might deal with that matter on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

I do not want to incur the displeasure of the Chair. I am referring to the concessions given in the Budget. However, I shall try to keep to the terms of reference of the debate. As I have said, there is nothing in this Budget that gives any hope of a change of policy or pattern by the Government in relation to our major industry, agriculture. I have said in this House on several occasions that Fianna Fáil have failed completely and miserably in so far as the development and progress of agriculture are concerned. Their lack of confidence and their faulty thinking in relation to agricultural development has been clearly demonstrated in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. When targets completely unrealistic to the vast potential for development in the agricultural industry were fixed, they were criticised and disagreed on by most agricultural experts.

We have seen the attitude of the Government to agriculture in the omission of agriculture from the NIEC. We have seen in recent times another indication of the attitude of the Government to agriculture in their failure to recognise the symptoms of decline, the difficulties and all the other apparent problems. Of course, the worst indication of all, and the worst thing that has ever happened in relation to agriculture, is the way the farming organisation over the past 12 months has been forced to resort to drastic measures to make their grievances known and to obtain some measure of justice.

I believe the present Minister for Finance must bear a large part of the responsibility for recent events in Irish agriculture. I believe that much of the difficulties and much of the unrest of recent months could have been solved around the table last October if the then Minister for Agriculture had met the delegation from the NFA who went to Merrion Street following the parades. This decline and neglect in agriculture is the greatest tragedy of the present decade. Unless it is stopped and unless we adopt a newer approach and new thinking to agricultural development, the whole economy of this country will be in jeopardy.

We hear a lot about co-operation. I have heard Deputies refer to co-operation as a means of saving the small farmer. The Minister for Finance referred to community effort and co-operation. I am a firm believer in, and I am absolutely convinced of the value of co-operation, not merely in agricultural development but in all spheres of economic activity. I have had experience of very successful economic co-operative projects, even though small, in the agricultural industry and in the development of tourist centres.

For that reason, while I have been very critical of the Minister, of the Government and of Fianna Fáil in relation to agriculture, I welcome one part of the Minister's speech, which is very interesting, that is, where he refers to the development of the West, and particularly to the question of local development. I am particularly glad a decision has been made to put the county development officers on a permanent basis. But the Minister made one observation—in what I consider to be the most interesting part of his speech—within the context of western development and county development officers, when he said it has been found there are quite a considerable number of projects—I shall call them local projects—in many areas of the West, which, with technical guidance, perhaps, skilled know-how and a relatively small injection of capital, could become viable and might have potential for expansion. On previous Budget debates, I have gone into detail on this question of local development.

I feel it is very relevant to a Budget debate, when economic policy is being discussed. Obviously the Minister and the Government are beginning to realise what many people have been preaching in this country for the past six or eight years, that a local community, by their own initiative and effort, aided by technical assistance and know-how, and encouraged by Government Departments, can succeed to a very marked degree in organising, promoting and establishing economic projects of many kinds. That is what has now become known, in international terminology, not as co-operation, but as community development. I sincerely hope this reference to local development is an indication of new thinking and a new approach, particularly to rural development.

Moving from agriculture and local development to some other aspects of the Budget, the Second Programme for Economic Expansion has been a failure. This is recognised now even by the Government, for the simple reason that the whole progress of the Second Programme to date is being examined with a view to finding out what went wrong and to fix newer and more realistic targets. I trust, when this review has been completed and when a revised Programme for Economic Expansion is being presented we will have no more of the hypothetical, armchair, academic approach to economic development; fixing targets, mathematical formulae and so forth, which as I have said here on a number of occasions before, is no good. As has been pointed out in one NIEC Report, there is no use fixing objectives unless you map out the road by which they can be reached.

The Minister referred to industrial development and tourism. The acid test of Government policy is the provision of employment. Here, the progress in the past couple of years has not been satisfactory. There has been quite a considerable amount of criticism of the approach to industrial development, particularly from small businessmen who complain they do not get a fair hearing when they make application for grants for expansion of existing, or for the establishment of new industries. I expected the Minister would have given details of the new scheme for the promotion of small industries in his Budget speech. We have been informed that a special section in the Department of Industry and Commerce has been set up to help promote small industries.

Tourism is, perhaps, one sector of the economy which has made reasonable progress, and is the only sector, as far as I am aware, in which the targets of the Second Programme have been reached. But the Minister stated that new incentives were being given, increased grants for the provision of tourist accommodation and made specific mention of two lines of policy, the farmhouse holiday and the development of angling. Despite the fact that reasonably good progress has been made in tourist development, there is still a vast potential market for angling holidays and family holidays. I would be completely opposed to the expenditure of any more money on the erection of luxury hotels. I believe the aim should now be to concentrate on the provision of the smaller hotel, guest-house, private house or farmhouse accommodation. This should be the aim and main concentration because, across the Channel, there is a vast potential market for this type of holiday.

I hope also that the Minister, in view of the fact that he did go into tourism in detail, will look into the question of the provision of adequate car ferry services between Great Britain and this country because, on a recent ten-day tour of Britain, I heard complaints all over from people who could not come on holiday here because they could not get a booking on a car ferry. I am aware the B & I have commissioned the building of a car ferry. I hope this problem will be borne in mind.

Deputy P. Byrne and Deputy Calleary rose.

I am prepared to give way to Deputy Calleary, Sir, if he wishes to speak.

Never was I more pleased and never were the people of County Mayo more pleased with a Budget than they were with this one. It certainly means a great lot to Mayo. We realise that 90 per cent of our farmers are benefiting by not having to pay rates. We realise the old age pensioners are going to benefit. Indeed, we realise all the benefits that will come from this Budget—a Budget which the Fine Gael people and the other Opposition Parties thought was going to be one of the worst Budgets that ever came because of the bad period the country had this year and last year. But they got an awful shock when the Budget was so good and they had to make complaints about it.

Speaking on behalf of my constituency, one of the poorest in the country, I want to say that the people there are quite satisfied with the benefits they got from the Budget. We do not worry that we have to pay a penny extra for the pint or 2d on the packet of cigarettes. Thanks be to God, we can carry on and can afford to pay that in order to get the benefits this Budget will bring to North Mayo. We are to have grants for the provision of accommodation for visitors in country places. In North Mayo we have some lovely isolated places. Now we hope we will be able to derive great benefit from the £100,000 provided in the Budget for that type of accommodation It is very seldom I speak in this House, but on this occasion I thought I should get up and thank the Government for the great Budget they have introduced. I am proud to be a member of the Party who introduced such a fine Budget.

This debate is in its eighth day and a great number of Deputies have spoken already. I will be as brief as I can. Sitting here one night last week, listening to the first two hours of a marathon speech, I was inclined to ask myself: Where does all this talk get us? Frequently outside of this House critics and cynics refer to us as being no more than a talking shop. It is true that sometimes one hears much repetition of tedious speeches. It can be all very wearying. But I think we have in this Budget a very striking illustration of the value of parliamentary discussion, a very striking illustration of the significance and work of constructive opposition. This can give us much heart when we are feeling bored with repetitive speeches, even though these are the very stuff of democracy.

I wish to refer to the proposal which the Minister has made to allow tax relief for certain medical expenses. Common courtesy, if nothing else, would require that I intervene in the debate to express acknowledgment of the Minister's action of implementing a Fine Gael amendment which has been moved on various Finance Bills in this House for each of the past six years. It is heartening to us to see that the Minister can learn from the arguments we have produced here. Certainly, it is true that the best people to implement Fine Gael policy are a Fine Gael Government in office. I can candidly admit that sometimes some of our supporters are offended when they find so much plagiarisation of Fine Gael policy by the Fianna Fáil Government. Nonetheless, we can take heart that if the ideas come from us, they are good ideas and it is for the good of the country that they should be implemented. Indeed, the Minister is most welcome to take other leaves from our policy for a just society, from which he has culled the particular matter of which I speak.

Like the curate's egg, the Budget is good in spots. Its biggest lack—indeed, the biggest lack in Fianna Fáil thinking as a whole—appears to be the lack of a social philosophy. When one can hear a respected Deputy, such as Deputy Healy of Cork, speaking in this House of the unparalleled poverty which exists in our cities and towns, as he spoke here yesterday, it should give his Ministers food for thought. For there is indeed dire poverty existing in this country today, particularly in this city of Dublin, which is an appalling contrast with many of the manifestations of vulgarity and brashness which are such a marked feature of the affluence of a certain section of our community. We in Fine Gael are prepared to do what we can to keep the Government's feet on the ground. We give them a free gift of our policy for a just society. We are confident that they lack the follow-through and the dedication to the just society ideal. Nonetheless, for what it is worth to them, good luck to them when they implement sections of it.

I am not going to speak at length here and I merely have in mind three or four specific points for the Minister. I welcome the increase which he has made in the allowance in respect of children under 11 years of age who did not reap the benefit of the increase granted last year for other children. The personal allowances for income tax purposes—the allowance for a single person, for a man and his wife and children, and for dependants—are completely out of keeping with the inflationary times in which we live. We have not kept pace with inflation. As a result, we have today people in the direct tax net who should not be in it, who in terms of similar incomes ten or 20 years ago, were completely free of tax. I speak most particularly of wage and salary earners who are fair game for the Revenue Commissioners and who have no escape from the tax net. If these personal reliefs and allowances for income tax purposes are away behind the times, if inflation has caught up on them unawares, this is because a previous Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance, now Senator Dr. Ryan, had set as his target whenever the opportunity presented itself, which was very rare indeed, the stabilisation, even the reduction, of the standard rate of income tax rather than an increase in these outdated allowances. That was a misguided approach, a very inequitable and unjust approach.

In respect of another important tax, death duties, we now have a similar situation developing for people who ought not to be liable to death duties and who are now being caught in the net.

How could the dead be liable for death duties?

The estates—I am obliged to the Minister.

The people who inherit are.

Certainly individuals are penalised who ought not to be penalised. Last year Deputy Dillon did us a great service when he reminded us that death duties were brought in by Gladstone's Government in the 70's or 80's of the last century for a social and a moral purpose. He reminded us, on the one hand, of the drunken dukes and, on the other, of the dizzy dissolute whom Gladstone the moralist had in mind when he invented death duties as a means of preventing the inheritance of vast wealth, often times ill-gotten wealth. The purpose was a social one. Like a lot of duties introduced for social purposes, they have now become a significant part of our tax structure and Ministers find it hard to shed their prerogatives.

The impact of inflation on capital, the impact of inflation on the individual who wishes to provide for his wife and children, is very severe when one comes to consider death duties. There is a margin on one's estate up to £5,000 which is free of duty, and if one leaves more than £5,000, one's estate is subjected to death duties which become progressively more penal as the estate increases.

It is true, in the city of Dublin at any rate, that as a result of inflation, as a result of the property boom, a person of modest means, £1,500 or £2,000 a year say, a bank clerk or a civil servant, living in a modest house, on his death is likely to have that house assessed to death duties in the sum of £5,000 or £6,000. The Revenue Commissioners are most exacting and demanding in regard to the estates which they assess. The effect of all this is that the widow of the small man can be fleeced for death duties, as he, in his lifetime, has been fleeced for income tax.

Two years ago very severe and penal measures were brought in here to assess to estate duty superannuation benefits. The Minister, in announcing his surtax reliefs made the case that it was essential not to have surtax on managerial technologists, as he rather glibly put it, any higher in this country than in Britain. He made the case that these managerial types earning £3,000 to £4,000 a year were more heavily assessed to surtax here than in Britain. If that is so, it is very significant that estate duties press far more severely here than they do in Britain on the small man. Dependency benefits under pension schemes are totally exempt from estate duty in the United Kingdom, but we impose a penal duty on these dependency benefits, superannuation benefits in particular. Such a purpose was never contemplated as a sound social objective when estate duties were first devised. It is very necessary from time to time to examine our taxes as to their social value and as to their real purpose.

I am aware that Ministers for Finance have a problem, and that their dedicated advisers are expert in raising funds. That is their job, but it is our function here in this House to consider the full implications, and in particular, the social implications of the various taxes. I have no hesitation in saying that inequitable duties are assessed on the estate of the small person, the man who leaves an estate to cater for a family of five, six, seven or eight children, the man whose estate, taking into account pension superannuation benefits, the value of his house and whatever insurance he leaves, will be valued at, perhaps, up to £25,000 or £30,000. Even a two by-four house in the city of Dublin will be valued at at least £5,000.

The British precedent which we copy so frequently is totally unsuited to our situation in respect of death duties. We cherish our large families, and it is true that the average family in this country is five or six children—I am not quite sure what the Irish statistics are. In Britain, that is not the case. The average family in Britain is something like 1.3 children. Therefore, the British precedent is quite inappropriate and unjust in its application to death duties in this country. One hears all too frequently of one's friends and colleagues being cut off in their prime, men who were straining to bring up their children decently and provide them with the best education possible. With that in mind, they would insure themselves heavily and, by heavily, I mean for £5,000, £6,000, £7,000, £8,000 or £10,000. These are the estates treated so unjustly from the point of view of these duties. I do not go along with those who make the case that death duties ought to be abolished. I am aware of the sound social purpose they serve from the point of view of tremendous wealth, such as that envisaged by Gladstone's Government 70 years ago.

There is no effective appeal machinery in respect of estate duty. There is, it is true, the right of recourse in disputed cases to the courts, but there is no appeal machinery such as there is in respect of income tax, surtax and corporation profits tax, in relation to which there is a special commissioner. That, too, is a hardship since recourse to the courts is exorbitantly expensive.

I welcome the provisions in relation to educational investment. I said before that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion appeared to put the cart before the horse where educational investment was concerned, for it postulated that only as national wealth increased would more money be available for investment in education. That was putting the cart before the horse. National resources will not increase until we first improve educational facilities and expand educational opportunities. To the extent that the secondary school plan, in particular, appears to indicate rethinking by Fianna Fáil on this issue, again I rejoice at that development.

We can now happily all find common ground in the statement that there can be no more productive form of national investment than investment in education. It is not so very many years since Government policy was strongly influenced by the doctrine of deadweight debt, the idea that no investment, no matter how desirable socially, was justifiable, except to a very small extent, unless it yielded a cash profit and, so to speak, paid its way. Educational investment, like many other forms of social investment, such as housing and hospitals, will not yield a direct cash benefit over the short term, but that in no way detracts from its significance and value. Old doctrines die hard and I am sure there are still people who accept as their bible the famous report of the Banking Commission, published in 1938, so orthodox, conservative and stultifying in its approach to national economics.

With regard to the scheme for increased educational opportunities, it is, I am sure, manifest that Dublin city will not fare as well under the scheme as it should. It would appear that not many secondary schools in the Dublin area can find it in them, because of their financial structure, to accept the grant of £25 per pupil in lieu of their right to charge their existing fees in excess of that amount. This is a financial problem and it is one for the Minister for Finance rather than the Minister for Education. This situation arises because so many secondary schools are crippled with debt. If the Minister for Finance came along with £1 million to relieve that position, I believe more Dublin schools will accept the £25 grant per pupil. Once relieved of the burden of debt hanging over them, the £25 may be sufficient to keep them going on a yearly basis. That is why I say the problem is one for the Minister for Finance and I would urge him to succour the Minister for Education in this matter.

The Minister had a great deal to say about the contribution of industry to our economy. The basic aim of tax policy, from the point of view of industry in particular, ought to be to encourage savings and investment. The time has come when the Minister should seriously consider the need to introduce a special form of company taxation, which will have built into it a relief from the full rate of taxation on the undistributed profits of companies ploughed back into the development of business. I welcome the ten per cent increase granted in the initial allowance on machinery and plant and other forms of capital. I congratulate the Minister on his imagination in introducing a free rate of depreciation or wear and tear for industries in the West. This was a proposal made by the Income Tax Commission, so many of whose recommendations were not acted upon by the Minister's predecessors. I think the Revenue Commissioners opposed this free rate of depreciation before the Commission.

With regard to the increased initial allowance, the Minister is really giving away nothing in the long run because if he loses out on it this year or next near, there will be less to be taken by the taxpayer in subsequent years. No one can recover by way of tax relief more than the cost of his plant and, whether one recovers that cost over one, two or ten years, the cost to the revenue will still be the same. Let us not fool ourselves. The Minister in the long run will not lose one pennypiece.

I should like to see far more use being made of tax incentives for industry and for individuals. The export tax relief, first introduced by Deputy Sweetman, has shown the great value of such incentives. The cash grants made available by An Foras Tionscal and the Industrial Development Authority for the development of industry ought to be transferred or changed into tax incentives, for cash grants may and sometimes do encourage uneconomic expenditure, uneconomic developments. One test of the worth and the value of any investment in industry is its ability to earn profits and if when it earns those profits it has the incentive of being relieved in part from taxation, this may be of far greater value than cash grants doled out by An Foras Tionscal to people who, perhaps, may not have enough capital apart from the cash grant to keep their business going over a term of years.

In connection with the development of industry and its significance in our economy, I must say that I am personally a little frightened of what is likely to happen, if and when we get into the Common Market. Already the impact of tariff reductions on industry gives us cause for concern and there is no harm in being specific about this. What is in today's papers is common knowledge. There is a report published in this morning's paper of one of our leading companies, Dunlops of Cork, who have suffered in the past two months of 1966 from imports of foreign tyres. This is a rather frightening thing. Dunlops have always been a company second to none so far as efficiency and even wealth and sound management are concerned. When one sees such a company seriously affected by imports, it is rather worrying. This is a company that ought to be, and I am sure is, in a position to develop markets abroad. I think it is a straw in the wind.

I believe the Minister for Finance and the Government as a whole must exert pressure on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to bring anti-dumping legislation in at the earliest possible moment. Again, in respect of anti-dumping, I am afraid I am a little despondent as to the efficacy of legislation in restricting it. If one thing is sure, it is that dumping is very difficult to detect. You do not know about it until after it has taken place. In the old days, one could be sure that everything imported from Japan or Hong Kong was dumped and one could put an embargo on the goods of these countries that exploited cheap labour. However, in current conditions, the dumping is likely to be effected by prosperous countries, some of whose industries will engage in skilful financial manipulation. These devices are very difficult to recognise until after the damage is done.

We must candidly admit that part of the growth of Irish industrial exports is to an extent the result of a mild form of dumping by Irish industries in foreign markets. I would issue a word of warning to the Government on that. An industry which has a protected home market and perhaps keeps its machinery and its factory working for four days a week can very easily work on the fifth day of the week and export its products without recovering the full cost of production and still do well out of it, cut their losses, so to speak. I am afraid that some of our Irish industrial exports are based on this protective position in the home market and that is not going to continue.

One thing which I would take the Government very much to task for in this connection is their failure to announce effective and comprehensive plans for the compensation and retraining of workers who, through no fault of their own, are likely to suffer from the development I speak of. Indeed, in the constituency which both the Minister and I have the honour to represent, that of North-East Dublin, we have one industry, the motor assembly industry, the future of which must cause us grave concern. I do not believe the Government are on top of the job in looking to these problems. I believe that there is a lot of vague and woolly wishful thinking in respect of the Common Market which it is alleged will solve all our problems.

Finally, I want to express a note of disappointment with one small part of the Minister's Budget statement. I refer to Part VII of the Finance Act of 1965, the iniquitous proposals brought in by the present Taoiseach two years ago taxing over severely, using a sledge hammer to crack a nut, certain gains on the sale of one's house or factory. The former Minister for Finance, Deputy Lynch, soon realised his mistake and last year, 1966, announced to us that he was engaging in some rethinking in respect of Part VII and that he would bring in retrospective or retroactive amendments in 1967. The Minister has deferred these until autumn and he has undertaken to bring in a Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill.

I am aware that a number of taxpayers and industries in particular are living in a state of acute suspense. A Sword of Damocles hangs over them so far as this tax is concerned. I appeal to the Minister to put them out of their agony and give us prior notice in this House when he is replying to the debate outlining what it is likely that he will do in the Bill which we are promised in the autumn. There are certain cases which the Minister must deal with, for instance, the case of the industry which wants to sell its factory in one place to move to another place to re-erect a bigger factory. The present position is thwarting development and progress. I know that to be a fact. It is hindering economic development. It is hindering employment of increased workers in at least one place that I have personal knowledge of. I would ask the Minister to the fullest extent which he can to anticipate in formula his autumnal proposals and put us now as fully as he can in the picture.

I welcome the Minister's decision to repeal section 490 of the new Income Tax Consolidation Act. I have not studied this in detail. However, I think it may go at least part of the way to meet some of the objections to the harsh powers at present possessed by the Revenue Commissioners in respect of seizure of property—something very much in the air these days—of private individuals. I would ask the Minister if he has yet considered the joint representation made to him some time ago of the Incorporated Law Society and the Institute of Chartered Accountants regarding the time limit for making assessments and the power at present possessed by the Revenue Commissioners actually to go back 44 years, to the foundation of the State, in re-opening assessments in all cases, not only in cases where fraud is suspected but in all cases. In Britain, from which we copy so much of our legislation, this power is confined to six years. In common justice and in common sense, the Minister must repeal this arbitrary and harsh power which exists. I shall have a lot more to say on these matters in the Finance Bill. I am confident the Minister will give me a fair hearing.

I have said before, and I say again, that much of the British tax legislation in this country is completely unsuited to our requirements. Let us not fool ourselves. The recent consolidation measure does not make one title of difference. Largely, we have consolidated British law, the bones of which are the British Act of 1918 and that goes back to 1853 and even earlier. We shall now spend £10,000 or £20,000 on the solemn farce of translating that into Irish, as if it would make it any more suited to our requirements. I shall have more to say on that issue on the Finance Bill.

At the outset, I undertook to be brief. I am afraid I have already exhausted the time limit I set myself.

Few of us in Dáil Éireann who were expecting a good Budget could have hoped to have our expectations not alone fulfilled but exceeded. The one aspect that gives me tremendous confidence in this Budget more than any other Budget are the allegations by the Opposition that this is a gimmick Budget for the local elections and that, after a while, after the local elections, we shall bring in another Budget—in other words, this Budget is so good that it cannot be true. Well, the people who go to the polls on local election day will surely give their answer vehemently and definitely to any of these allegations.

They sure will.

I have no doubt in my mind that no other Budget is contemplated by the Minister. These are the usual red herrings which are being raised by the Opposition Parties——

Will the Minister confirm that for us?

——to try to take away some of the gloss, glamour and punch this Budget has produced. Listening to some of the Opposition speakers, especially some of the Front Bench Fine Gael speakers, one must feel we are very lucky these men are not in Government. To continue in the nautical vein adopted by the Minister at page 16 of his Budget speech when he said:

The telescope of public attention is focussed on the top mast of the budgetary ship to see what kind of flag is flying, with the result that the hull glides by almost unnoticed.

I would say that, but for the harbour of the Fianna Fáil Government, we certainly would be a shipwrecked people if we had some of the Front Bench Opposition spokesmen looking after our economy. The Minister deserves to be complimented and praised for broadening completely the scope of social benefits. I am sure this was not an easy decision but it was a right decision because, by granting to old age pensioners the extra concessions in relation to free electricity and free travelling, we are going a long way towards helping the people who most need help.

I was particularly glad that the Minister touched on tourism in his Budget. I have the honour to represent the constituency of mid-Cork which is endowed with tremendous tourist potential. The incentives provided in the Budget for the promotion of tourism were very well received in Cork. My constituency is ideally suited to tourism. It has the advantage of a long coastline and scenic towns such as Cross-haven, Bandon, Courtmacsherry, Kinsale and others. They have all become veritable hotbeds of tourism. I know that people who depend for their livelihood on tourism will very much appreciate the concessions granted by the Minister in this Budget.

The number of registered bedrooms and hotels and guest houses have, as we all know, rapidly increased since 1960. More and more of the people in various rural areas are opening up their homes and farmhouses to tourists and are finding it a very paying proposition. I should especially like to mention, as well, a group down in the Bandon area who have shown tremendous enterprise and initiative in forming themselves into a type of consortium of business people. A hotelier, a tourist promoter——

What do they call them—Taca?

——and a caravan site operator joined together——

Do they call them Taca?

It is not like the extortion practised by the Labour Party.

It is a voluntary effort.

We are proud of it.

You would know more about it than I do.

The more you attack it, the prouder we are.

The Jet Set.

You are annoyed because you did not think of it first.

£100 a plate.

I know a man who gave you £500 at the last election.

You had better produce him, because he must be lost.

I will produce him.

Would you mind informing us?

We know where you get the money—little trips out to certain places.

The Fine Gael members of this House are very wealthy members. For instance, in the last Presidential election, there was a levy of £100 on each of them and they had no bother in coughing it up. We know they are part-time politicians only and do not depend on politics for their livelihood. We in Fianna Fáil are the Party of the working people. Most of us come from workingclass families and could not afford to have that kind of levy imposed on us, so we took the most effective action we could see open to us. We asked people who are sympathetic to the Party to subscribe to the Party, and we are not a bit ashamed of it. Let me get back to what I was saying when I was so nicely interrupted by Deputy Tully. Deputy Tully would never interrupt anyone rudely. He interrupts Deputies with a smile and a nice wink, so one hardly ever gets annoyed.

I am interested in the £500 the Minister was asking about. Maybe I could get the name of the person?

The Deputy should not interrupt.

The Minister made a comment which was most unworthy of him because it is untrue.

Deputy Crowley on the Budget.

The Opposition Parties cannot resist any opportunity of trying to bury their shame at not having thought of something like Taca themselves. I was talking about business people who got together in my area and formed themselves into an effective working group to attract tourists to the area. A feature of their promotional drive and initiative was that they ensured that any travel agent of consequence in England was visited by one of them and told of and sold on the attractions of the area. If the tourist agent wanted to visit the area, he was brought over free, and entertained. I am delighted that this enterprise paid off handsomely. This is the type of initiative we need, a grouping together of business men and a pooling of their interest for the common good. Like the Taca organisation they realise that by having Fianna Fáil in Government there is security, and that so long as Fianna Fáil are in Government we have a good stable honest Government. This is what most people look for.

When this group from Bandon went across to the British market, they had tremendous aids from Bord Fáilte. Indeed, when the travel agents came over from England, they were met by people from Bord Fáilte who did everything possible to entertain them. Not only were these business men prepared to go as far as England, they went even further. They went to Germany and other continental countries, and brought over more travel agents to the area of mid-Cork and showed them what we have to offer. I am glad to say that the bookings are 100 per cent for the months of June, July, August and half of September. I can assure the Minister that his effort in making this extra concession to the tourist industry is very much appreciated.

The Cork county council plan envisages an improvement in planning development and a concentrated effort to rid our highways and by-ways of ugly disfigurements so that the beauty of our countryside and our beauty spots will not be tainted. Certainly the county manager is to be complimented on his efforts on that score.

I am delighted at the merger between Erin Foods and Heinz. This will be a joint company and will prove to be of enormous benefit to the whole country. It will afford Erin Foods and all of us an opportunity to sell more intensely on the British market. It is of the utmost importance that we should match Heinz in our salesmanship, competitiveness and quality, and comply with the very high standard which Heinz undoubtedly have. In my opinion the potential for Erin Foods is vast. I hope that the workers and the farmers alike will put their best foot forward on this occasion in the interests of greater production, more competitive production and better quality produce.

It was a very good sign, too, when we discovered that this new company is incorporated in Ireland and that the shareholdings will be equally divided between the two parent companies with equal representation on the Board. Heinz are the largest food marketing firm in Britain. I believe they have assets totalling £33 million. They have a current turnover of £60 million and their profits in the UK last year were £6.3 million. It can be seen that the potential of this new partnership is tremendous, and we must ensure that only the best and highest standards are attained, to make certain that Erin Foods Products are products that Heinz are proud to sell.

A great aspect about the link-up with Heinz is that Heinz have 100 per cent penetration of the British market and that is very important from our point of view. That is where we really fell down on the job previously with Erin Foods. Our production was good, our produce was of very good quality, but our salesmanship was deplorable to say the least of it. I do not think we could expect it to be otherwise when we take into account the virtual novices who were sent to what is a highly competitive market with a new product, to try to penetrate what proved to be a practically impenetrable market.

For Heinz there are advantages also because the handling of Erin Foods quality products will increase their range and give them wider marketing scope. There is every reason to believe that the Erin Foods figures for last year will be increased. Last year they processed the produce of over 350 acres of vegetables and more than 11,000 tons of potatoes from 800 acres. We hope to see those figures increasing enormously this year.

Sharp outbursts of criticism were launched against the building trade. This applies only to a very small minority of the building trade. Most of those in the building trade are very responsible men and are doing a substantial work for the country. They really showed their mettle during the credit squeeze when normally they should have been the first to go to the wall, but to their credit they survived. While there are a few black sheep amongst them, there are no more than in any other section of the business community. I know we can all blow a lot of hot air about injustices, land speculation and enormous profits, and there have been cases of these but they have only been a small minority of cases.

I should like to say a few words now about expenses under the income tax code. This is a favourite topic with all of us. Generally speaking, expenses incurred by traders and professional people are treated as admissible deductions for assessment purposes, but as far as employees are concerned, it must be proved—and I must get the wording of this right because it is important—that the expenses must have been incurred wholly, exclusively and necessarily in the course of their employment. Therefore, the cost of travelling to and from work is excluded. Clearly in this regard the law favours the trader and the professional man, who in general are much more capable, financially, of coping with taxation than their brethren who are sometimes called working people.

The Minister is to be congratulated on his intention to introduce legislation to compel those who are self-employed to maintain records. It is only right that such records should be kept and be made available, if necessary, for inspection by the proper authorities. Rightly or wrongly, it is commonly felt by most taxpayers that this section of the community is not bearing its proper proportion of taxation and this is throwing an added burden on those who are literally taxed to the hilt, those who are taxed under Pay-As-You-Earn and Schedule E. People would like to be assured that the burden will be spread more evenly and more fairly.

However, even if self-employed people still maintain proper records and traders and professional people are correctly taxed, the expenses question still remains a very definite problem. To say the least of it, it seems unfair that one person can, rightly under the law, claim for the running of his car, or on part of the outlay involved in running a house, on telephone bills, or on wages for a maid, while others have no rights whatsoever under these headings. For instance, a solicitor or an architect can claim expenses in regard to entertaining clients; a medical man may claim in respect of subscriptions to golf clubs or any other type of club. Yet all these concessions are denied to employees. It is only natural that employees should resent that situation. We would all appreciate if the Minister could find a way to redress the balance. If he could, he would be going a long way towards remedying a long-standing grievance. Perhaps he could grant an allowance to employees in regard to the cost of travelling to and from work, or if that could not be implemented for technical reasons, if he granted an allowance of £50 or £100 to every employee who uses his car to get to and from work, it would be very much appreciated. Of course you have employees and employees: a director could be an employee of a firm.

And he gets his income tax remission.

He would not be entitled, as an employee, to this type of concession.

He is getting it already.

But not as an employee. The danger is that he could own the company, or be a director of a private company, and be getting it on the double. However, I hope that the——

Do not be looking around at him. He is doing nicely.

Deputy Tully will appreciate that the Fianna Fáil Party is a Party of free speech.

The man on the Front Bench does not agree with the Deputy.

Of course he does. I am sure Deputy Gibbons agrees with everything I am saying.

Or some of them on the back benches, either.

The Minister might take another look at the allowance for wives who are gainfully employed. The present allowance has not been changed for a number of years, and if the allowance were increased it would be a concession for those husbands who need to have their wives at work.

I should like also to say a few words about the Minister's reference to depreciation. I know he has introduced this element of relief for certain businesses in western areas and the time might be considered opportune for its general introduction throughout the country. The income tax net has been widening more and more every year and more traders and professional people are coming within the range of liability. The proportion of people who every year are submitting accounts for audit is increasing and this is putting a tremendous burden on the accountancy profession. The strain is further increased by the demand from industrial and commercial enterprises for these very valuable professional men. Even some Ministers have been accountants so the drain does not end with commercial and industrial concerns.

The strain on the accountancy profession to get through all the audited accounts of those who are coming within the orbit of taxation is continuing. When it comes to the audit, the accountant usually provides—I am not absolutely certain of this but I can be corrected if I am wrong—for depreciation of wasting assets. I believe this is common practice and that it is approved procedure in most cases. The point I am trying to make, and I find it hard to get words for it, is that the amounts provided for depreciation are determined on an arbitrary basis but regard is usually had to previous experience of a particular trade or industry. Notwithstanding this, under income tax law depreciation is not an admissible deduction against profits. For that reason, accountants have to prepare lengthy and detailed lists of wasting assets, writing off an annual proportion as fixed by law, taking cognisance of additions and sales to get profits and losses in respect of sales of plant and machinery.

This is complicated for the ordinary man such as myself, but I feel that there is a considerable amount of time and labour wasted that could be saved if normal commercial practice were followed and depreciation charged in the accounts were allowed, ruling out the procedure followed at present. That is my suggestion: I know it is not an easy matter to adjust immediately but I hope the Minister will look into it. He is to be congratulated on his efforts to reflate the economy by increasing the rate of initial allowance. That is a very definite step towards reflation.

I spoke earlier about speculative builders and said they represented a very small proportion of the building trade. There are some suggestions I want to put forward which I think could curb to some degree the type of speculation that goes on. If it could be determined that a speculator bought land by means of an advance from the bank, the banks should be requested to withdraw this credit immediately. This would force the speculator to get rid of his holding, and if a number of these holdings came on the market within a limited time, prices would be bound to drop, with consequent gain to the community. I would have no compunction in squeezing these socalled gentlemen of their ill-gotten gains at the expense of those who can ill afford to pay the prices they are being charged for sites for houses. The people paying these enormous prices have contributed through the local authorities to pushing up the value of these sites. I would also encourage the Minister to get his income tax inspectors to examine minutely the speculators' tax affairs and to charge tax in only one sum per annum and ensure that the tax is paid in full on the day it falls due. This would limit the speculators' ability to buy an excessive number of sites and might force him to give up those held by him in excess of his current requirements.

Again, I want to congratulate the Minister on his fine Budget and to ask him to consider one more matter, the enormous aids we are giving to some big farmers in rates. For instance, the three farmers down in Kilkenny were getting nearly £1,000 aid paid by the taxpayer. There is something wrong somewhere when these men, obviously of vast means, are being subsidised by the taxpayer who finds it hard enough to make a living and do what he can for his family. This is not right and I ask the Minister to investigate it and see if there is any way of getting out of the cushioning of the rates for these obviously very wealthy farmers.

Nearly everything has been said that could possibly be said about a Budget, both from the point of view that it sets out to do certain things and, as held by the previous speaker, is a good and excellent Budget or, on the other hand, as held by speakers on this side, is not going far enough, or again, as was said by a member of this Front Bench, is more or less of a fiddle. There is a suspicion abroad that the Minister had much more money to play with than was actually shown in his Budget Statement and that moneys were paid out of the Exchequer in advance of the time they were due to be paid in order not to have a balance outstanding on the last day of the financial year. If that is so, it is wrong because a Budget Statement should be a statement of actual facts——

That is what it is.

——something that should be fundamental because it is necessary that every person in the country should know just how the financial position stands on the last day of the financial year. It is also necessary that every penny collected be utilised in the best interests of all the people so that the national cake is distributed evenly. While Fianna Fáil speakers have hailed this as a good Budget, we cannot let them forget that it would not be as good but for the fact that it was the result of a savage Budget imposed last year and a supplementary one that added to the savagery later on.

The Minister had no money to play with except the money he extracted from the pockets of the people of the country through that savage Budget. No matter how he attempted to distribute it, the fact is that he got it through the Budget of the year before, a year in which many people suffered from lack of money that could not be provided for grants for housing, for work done on farms, for work under the Land Project, for farm buildings, for water supplies and many other things the people in the rural areas needed—money they needed, money they had earned, money that was due to them. But they had to wait.

There was a shortage of credit in the private sector, due to the fact that the Government had cornered all the credit for the public sector. Even with that cornering, there still had to be long delays before people entitled to money could get it. I hope that in the future, with this supposedly good Budget, these delays will no longer occur.

The benefits have been hailed by Deputies on the Government side but they are really not staggering. I congratulate the Minister on having done something at least to realise the alarming rates problem in the poor western counties. Even though he has gone a bit of the road, the total amount of money it will mean to any farmer in the western area where the majority average £12 valuation will not be an awful lot. Still, it is a step in the right direction, but only, as I have said, a little step.

The people in the small towns of the West, in Mayo where there is a rate of 85/- in the £ this year, the highest rate in Ireland and the poorest county, have to pay this rate and are groaning under the burden; yet they get no relief in this Budget. It is long past time the Government realised that the small towns will die unless some relief is given to them. They have to pay the full rate; they are not entitled to anything like the same grants for improvement of their houses as the people in rural areas. Their houses are 100 years old and in a bad state of deterioration but they will not be able to restore them. Even if they were, they would get another gentleman to pounce on them, the gentleman from the Valuation Office, who looks at the windows and the doors and who, in respect of any little improvement they have made, will impose a higher valuation.

There has been a big movement in the West for years among local authorities and subsidiary bodies who have been talking about rates equalisation. They have been putting the case to the Government through the Municipal Authorities Association and the General Council of County Councils. They have been putting the case that there must be a rates equalisation plan, that the Government will have to establish a fund to be used wherever the rate in the £ goes above the national average. I suppose that has been spoken of by other Deputies but I emphasise that it is past time the Government examined this thing because it cannot be allowed to go on indefinitely. The fact that the major counties, and I take Meath as an example, are able with half the rate in the £ of Mayo, the poorest county, to give far better services to the people is something that nobody can ignore, something that action must be taken on. In Mayo, we are not able to provide the level of services to which our people are entitled by law, the level of services that Kildare, Meath, Dublin or other major counties are able to provide. It is something that must be tackled very soon by way of a rates equalisation fund. If such a fund were established, the burden of rates would fall in a much fairer way on communities in areas like Mayo where the people would be enabled to obtain the services that we, as a county council, are unable to give them because we cannot bear to impose a higher rates burden on their shoulders.

The Government have done something by the remission of rates up to £20 valuation on land but many people got a rude shock when they heard that the rates on buildings were to remain as they were. The Government also have done something for the small farmer who is on unemployment assistance, or what is commonly known as the dole, in allowing him to draw the dole for the full year without an employment period being declared.

There are many views about whether the dole as it exists is good for the country or a bad thing. My personal view is that through the failure of the Government, or successive Governments, to provide a living for the small farmers of the West, they must naturally do something to ensure that those farmers can continue to live in the country and not all have to emigrate. People are more important than Budgets; people are more important than anything else in the economy of a nation; and if we cannot keep people in this land of ours, no matter what others may say about the number of Mercedes parked along the streets of Dublin or how many people are able to go to the races or fly to Florida on holidays, if we have not people living in the towns and farms of Ireland, everything done by the men of 1916 and from that day to this has failed.

It is for that reason that I think the Government has done right in giving the dole to the small farmers to enable them to continue to live on their holdings with wives and families and not to have to emigrate to Britain, leaving behind their families, which in many cases has resulted in broken homes. The main point on which the Government are failing is this: it is possible in the West to provide employment for every single small farmer there. There is work to be done for thousands. Drainage, afforestation, roadmaking are three things that are necessary. The division and improvement of holdings held by the Land Commission for years and not yet distributed is another job to be tackled. Every man there could be put to work usefully. All that is necessary to do it is to provide the money.

A plan can be made and a plan carried out, but unfortunately, I am afraid, in Government circles and Departmental circles, we have this characteristic go-slow of the Irish people: tomorrow is another day. A plan made today can be carried out next year or the year after. Everybody who has experience of work in a local authority, in a vocational committee, will realise how one tries to plan to build a vocational school in a certain area. There are many different things that have to be done before you finally arrive at the day when the school opens. There are the Board of Works architects, the county planners and everybody else and you are lucky if you get off the ground with the best will in the world after three years. In some cases it takes much longer to get off the ground, even with the best will in the world.

The Board of Works have nothing to do with the building of vocational schools.

The Board of Works have to vet the plans.

No, they have not.

Some branch of the Department of Education has to vet the plans. Of course, the Board of Works deal with many other branches in relation to local authority building.

This does not seem to be at all relevant to the Budget debate.

It is not true.

It might not be relevant to a Budget debate but I think anything dealing with Government grants to local authorities should be relevant. I have heard people speaking this evening who were no more relevant than I am at the moment. I want to say to the Minister that there must be speed in all the activities of the different Departments because putting things on the long finger and leaving them there for a year or two years is not the best thing to do in the modern world. Any country which pursues that line is left far behind.

The Minister must know that there are delays in housing, in the building of schools, in building libraries and in hospital accommodation. There is need for an injection of capital into the western areas if the West is to be saved. This must be done in a massive way. If the capital is not injected, regardless of what anybody says, the West will be lost. More and more people are going away from the West. Surely it is up to everybody in Dáil Éireann to attempt to keep our people at home and not have them emigrating. We have a very big problem here and it is up to the Government to ensure that the money is spent in the right way. Believe it or not the people who emigrate from the West do not want to go. Every westerner is as fond of his home as an easterner or a midlander. No westerner I ever knew wished to go away if he could get a living at home. Those people like to be at home. They do not like to have to leave their families and go to Britain or America.

The spirit and the will to survive must be encouraged. It must be injected into individuals but there must be goodwill about it. The goodwill of everybody in this House is necessary and we must have direction from the Government and good propaganda. People must again be told how necessary it is for them to work harder and to direct their energies to the betterment of the community and their fellows. If that spirit dies, then nothing the Government or any other Government can do will save the nation.

Government policy at Budget time, as I said before, is so to direct resources as to ensure that everybody in the community plays his or her part and gets the ammunition to do so. In Mayo we have problems with the roads. We have problems in relation to hospitals. Our road problem is huge in comparison with the rateable valuation and even in comparison with the population. We have about 1,400 miles of untarred roads vested in the county council. Those untarred roads are almost impassable in winter time. Modern vehicles tear sandy roads to bits and you have children attempting to go to school in the depth of winter along those roads which are really drains and nothing more. For a long time we have been asking the Government to allow us to spend some of the money which they allocate through the county road improvement grant to be used in attempting to make some of the roads at least passable for the time being because with our resources it will be years before we are able to deal with all those roads. We have to put an increasing burden on the ratepayers for the maintenance of those roads. If they are tarred the burden still increases, strange to say.

I urge the Government to take a decision to allow county councils such as Mayo County Council to distribute the county road improvement grant in the way they know best because nobody knows as well as county councils in any area what the road problems are. It is about time that this rigidity in relation to the disposal of money, this rigid idea of the different Departments that you must only spend certain moneys in certain ways must be broken. This should be less binding so that the money can be distributed in the way the county councils think best. There should be more flexibility in every Department of State.

As I have already said, there is plenty of work in all the western counties for every individual, small farmer and worker, but it needs a massive amount of money to do the roads, to plant the forests and another thing I might mention, bog work in the West of Ireland. Our bogs have been more or less neglected over the past few years due to the fact that labour for the hand-cutting of turf is not available. We are in the machine age for turf production and machines are available. The Sugar Company have machines at Tuam which are working around the County of Mayo and they are doing a good job. I heard this year that certain private individuals are going into the business of getting a modern machine of a somewhat lighter type which can be used in practically any bog. There is one snag with this work, that is, that the roads to the bogs are not there and a certain amount of drainage work will have to be carried out. The Government should look into this matter without delay. This would give employment to the people in those areas who are drawing unemployment assistance.

A lot of bog drainage work could be done and this would yield a definite financial return, particularly in County Mayo where there is enough turf for 40, 50 or 60 years. People are turning to oil fuel and this should not be permitted. Oil fuel has to come into this country, our balance of payments often being affected, and if there were a real emergency, the people might find themselves without oil for fuel. Modern turf-burning ranges are as good, as economical and as up-to-date as any type of oil-fired range and the Government should give careful consideration to the fact that if roads on which machines can travel are provided in the bogs, the people will win more and more turf.

I have not much more to say except that I feel the Government might have done something to ease the burden on the motorist. Last year road tax was raised and petrol at the moment is a terrible price. Many people need a motor car. It has become part of the livelihood of a large proportion of our people, and people who have to go to work every day cannot do without a car. Last year about £45 million was extracted from the motorist through petrol and car tax. That is a lot of money. About £10 million of that went back to the local authorities by way of grants from the Road Fund.

Having regard to the condition of the roads in Mayo and to the fact that £45 million was extracted from the motorists, a greater proportion of that money should be allocated to the roads. It is no use waiting two, three, four or five years to get over this problem. Problems should be tackled immediately. If money is to be injected into such work, it should be done quickly and the thing should not be left hanging on for years and years. The roads in Mayo need doing now. The money is there if it is properly allocated because it has come in from the petrol and the car tax. Now is the time to do this work.

We have many other problems in the West, that will have to be solved in the not too distant future. We cannot keep as many of our officials in the West as we would like. We have a situation where we appoint, say, a young engineer or a young doctor, and perhaps for a couple of years while he is young and unmarried, he stays with us. The next thing is he marries and, with God's help, has a few children and then he decides that the West is no place for him. He takes himself away to the nearest city where his children can get proper education. From his point of view, that is all right, but what happens in the county he leaves? You have a situation where a man has settled down to work, is getting good results and suddenly tears himself away. You have the same situation with regard to teachers—teachers in schools and other teachers. They go, leaving a blank, a blank that cannot be filled. Teaching is a vocation and the teacher, if he or she is to do the job properly, must stay with the job, not for a year or two but, if possible, for a lifetime. The old-time teachers who gave the best results were dedicated to their pupils. They knew every family and they lived there as part of the community. They are the people who get the results.

You have the same situation with regard to doctors. Doctors will not stay in small outlying dispensaries down the country. There is only one way you can keep them, that is, to pay them : give them more money. There should be a special scale of salaries laid out for doctors, or indeed other officials, who have to stay in out-of-the-way places in the West to do their job. The sooner the Government realise that the better.

There is such a scale.

There is for doctors, but not for other types.

It is limited to doctors.

This matter should be examined so that other officials as well as doctors and teachers are taken in. Each individual case should be examined on its own merits.

You should ask the county council to do it. It was done in Galway.

If you ask the county council to do it with the rates at 85/- in the £, it will not be very popular. It is the Government's duty to lay down the scale and the Government's duty to pay the money. This is something which would benefit poorer areas and the money necessary should not have to come out of the poorer areas. I think you will agree with that.

I have not very much more to say. I only hope the Budget will bring the good results Fianna Fáil speakers have claimed it will bring and that this time next year we will have another surplus, which I very much doubt, and that everybody during the year will be much happier as a result of this Budget.

There will be no surplus if the Deputy gets all he wants.

Deputy Lyons, in his opening remarks, suggested that the Minister did not bring in a true Budget; in other words, that he had more money coming to the end of the financial year but he lashed it out, so to speak, and, as a result, he had not the surplus he could have had when he was bringing in his Budget. This statement contradicts certain allegations made during the course of the debate by other Fine Gael speakers. There is no need to remind the House that we have heard about the Government being "bust", being broke and not having a penny, having to scrape the pot. How one Fine Gael speaker can stand up and say that we are "bust" and another say we have more money than we are saying we have is beyond my comprehension.

With regard to the Budget, the public and Deputies look on it as to the increases in taxation we will have and the benefits that will be given. That is as far as revenue is concerned, but the object of the Budget and the important part of it, as far as the economy is concerned, is the Capital Budget. If the Capital Budget has been static in money terms during 1964-65, due to the world credit squeeze, it must mean that we were not getting the same value for money last year as we are getting this year. In other words, we could not build as many houses with the same money last year as in 1964-65.

A very important part of this year's Budget is that there is an increase of 9.6 per cent in money allocated. This would mean, naturally, and must be welcomed by people not alone in this House but in county councils, more money for housing and sanitary services which, in my opinion, must be our two priorities as far as Government spending is concerned. We all know, in so far as housing is concerned, that apart from housing schemes by local authorities, there is an ever-increasing demand for loans under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. In my county where a few years ago £10,000 would cover the amount of money for this type of building, due to groups of people getting together and builders building houses and selling them. I would estimate we would now require, to meet all the demands in a county of our size, around £80,000. Already I notice, in my own town, there are houses being built; there are 60 or more in Carlow, some in Tullow. where loans have been applied for. This is money needed now and which a few years ago was not required to the same extent.

There is £500,000 less this year for that purpose.

There is not; I was speaking to the Minister for Local Government about this matter today, because I had a particular interest in it as far as my own county is concerned, and I was told more money would be available.

I have read the Book of Estimates and I have noted the lesser amount.

References have been made to our national debt, the amount of it and that the country is drawing on this. Yet, none of those people who say this ever explain what is the national debt, how it comes about or what is the cause of it. We all know here, and I am sure the public know too, that this type of tomfoolery may affect a few people but if we want £80,000 to build houses in County Carlow where will that money come from? We apply to the Department of Finance for it; they give it to us; they borrow that money; the houses are built and the people buy the houses. Surely, nobody expects we should build houses out of ordinary revenue or that we should build houses out of money provided in any one year; whereas normally houses are built and paid for over a period of 35 years.

The first thing I should like to refer to in the current Budget is the blanket coverage of all social welfare beneficiaries, which includes old age non-contributory and contributory pensioners, national health recipients, persons in receipt of disability allowances, widows' pensions, special allowances and all the other people who normally require assistance from the State. There is no point in anybody standing up, when speaking about this Budget, and saying that because Mrs. Jones has two hens, she will not get the 5/-. Irrespective of what is the position in this year's Budget, any person in receipt of a pension will get the 5/-. This is a very desirable thing in the present Budget although, mind you, the previous Minister for Finance —indeed the previous Minister for Social Welfare—felt there was quite a lot to be said for giving more to those who have nothing and less to those who have something. I can recall what was the greatest Budget ever presented in this House—I think it was in 1965, after I came in here —when 10/- was given to those with no income and 5/- to those with an income of, I think it was, £26. At that time the Government were not told to bring in more taxation to meet it. The Government could have introduced more taxation at that time— it would probably have been a more popular thing—to give a flat 7/6d to everybody. But I am sure even certain Opposition Deputies will agree with me that the idea of giving more to those with nothing and less to those with something is the best policy as far as social welfare benefits are concerned.

There is one little aspect of these increases I should like to mention. Quite a number of people who are in receipt of home assistance very often have this decreased when their pension is increased. I would ask the Minister to ensure—with his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare—that they will have a chat with county councils and ensure when this 5/- is given to people in receipt of home assistance, they will not have that assistance decreased.

The desirable feature of the income tax allowances is that medical expenses can be included for reduction of income tax and a very important matter also is the dependent relative income limit which was raised from £120 to £140. I would suggest to the Minister that in all future Budgets— instead of doing this in 1963 or 1964. and then having a gap of a couple of years and increasing it by £20—where the dependent relative is in receipt of a pension, which is increased, the dependent relative income limit should be increased by a similar amount and that even in the case of a son or daughter—who are the only wage earners in a home—their dependent relative allowance will not be reduced. I sincerely hope the Minister, or his successors—whoever they may be—will bear that in mind in all future Budgets.

Some money provided in the Budget —and which many people tried to say was provided long before the Budget— was that in relation to payment of post-primary education and free books for certain categories of students which would mean. I presume, those in the lower income groups. The provision of money for post-primary education and for transport to schools is a very desirable feature, certainly for Deputies with children. I myself had to cycle nine miles to school. People who live more than three miles from the nearest secondary school now will get not alone transport for their children—if they want secondary education—but will also receive payment in respect of the school fees.

The greater part of the £8 million provided in the Budget, of course, went to agriculture. Indeed, it is to the credit of the Minister for Finance, as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, that the amount for agriculture in 1963/64 was £38.5 million and today is £60.2 million. Even this, we all know, will not solve many of the problems of agriculture. It might be no harm for me to say, looking at the improvements to farm buildings and new farm buildings—I am thinking also of the money spent on the bovine TB eradication scheme, on the land project, which were works of a capital nature as far as farming was concerned —a lot of this money went to make our farms more productive, and towards improving farmhouses and buildings. Therefore, farmers who say they did not get much out of this may be right in so far as putting the money into one's pocket is concerned but certainly it improved the value of the farms and has been very worthwhile capital spent on the land of Ireland.

The flight from the land and money to prevent this has often been talked about. We hear people saying that many thousands will leave the land within the next few years. There is no use in fooling ourselves about this.

Take any roadway in Ireland where you have a farmhouse with a family of five or six children; further down the road you have a cottage with a family of, say, five, six, seven or more children. No matter what anybody may say, out of that farmhouse, with the exception of one perhaps, the remainder will seek employment elsewhere or buy another farm and, as far as the cottage down the road is concerned, the same may happen, one member of the family may remain on there, get married and the rest of that family must seek employment either in the nearest town in some industry or—as often happened and will happen for some time unfortunately—emigrate, either compulsorily or by choice. That is one point the Government have never denied and they have always said this flight from the land would continue.

There is a category of people I often think are in a very bad way at the moment and I am sure other Deputies here from rural areas will agree with me on this. I am thinking particularly of a man of around the 60 age group, or a little more who was, say, working on a farm or some rural improvement scheme; when he comes to 60 years of age—particularly if he has been ill for some time—he will find it very difficult to get employment. It is only natural to expect that a farmer, who may have to pay £9 or £10 in wages to an employee, will want to get the best he can for that money. I suppose every employer would do the same. I see Deputy Tully smiling. Perhaps he does not agree?

I was smiling at the £9 or £10.

That is the kind of individual who finds it hard to get employment. The new social welfare provisions in the Budget will help, too, but I do not believe social welfare is the answer to finding employment for anybody.

There is also an increase for the advisory services run by the county committees of agriculture. The thought has often struck me: are we really getting value for the money we spend on the committees of agriculture? I have often thought that in each area there should be a subcommittee, if you like, of the committee of agriculture composed of the local farmers. In this committee they could meet one another, with the instructor present to discuss the problems arising in the area. They, in turn, could appoint two members to the county committee of agriculture. When the new county committees are formed in June or July, it might be possible for some system of this nature to evolve. In my own committee we carried out a survey to find out how many farmers availed of the services of our instructors—and we found that the number availing of their services was only one-third of the total number of farmers in the county. That is certainly not getting true value for the money spent on our advisory services. This is really a matter for debate on the Estimate for Agriculture, and I am only mentioning it here because we are providing the money.

In the past few months more has been said about rates, particularly rates on agriculture, than ever before, but it is wise to refer to it again at Budget time. As the Minister mentioned in his Budget Statement, the total amount now for the relief of agricultural rates is £16 million. This gives the House some idea of the magnitude of the problem of rates. In my opinion, and in the opinion of many people, rates are an inequitable system of taxation. Whether you are an old age pensioner, a shopkeeper, a farmer, irrespective of your income, you must pay rates. Other forms of taxation, which might be pay-as-you-earn or pay-as-you-spend, are fairer systems of taxation.

That the Government are very concerned about the increase in rates is obvious from the Budgets down the years in which they have increased the amount for the relief of rates on agricultural land. I know this is a big burden on the farmers. It is also a big burden on shopkeepers and house-holders. We know that if a shopkeeper extends his premises or puts in a window, somebody from the Valuation Office comes down and up goes the valuation and with it the rates. I have had personal experience of it myself. However, it is agricultural rates that are more often referred to on the Budget. Some day some Minister will have to face the problem of increasing some of the rates of taxation we have in order to provide a general increase in the relief to rates. I think it would be better done by taking away from the county councils not alone the cost of this service but also its administration of it. The Government could not finance some scheme and then leave it to the county councils to administer it. This became quite obvious a couple of years ago in respect of the money we provided for health services. Over 33 per cent of the rate in my county is in respect of health services and 53 per cent of the total amount we spend on these services is paid by the State.

There is just one other point I should like to refer to. It concerns congested areas in counties like Carlow and Wicklow—the Parliamentary Secretary knows them well—where farms are divided. A man may have a farm of 25 acres and he gets a further 25 acres from the Land Commission. I know of such cases myself. This man has to pay and will have to pay the Land Commission something like £140 per year for years by way of the land annuities on that land. This is a far bigger burden on him than rates. While I know doing something about this would mean new legislation and an amendment of the 1965 Land Act, it could possibly be done by declaring areas like that congested areas. Under the 1965 Land Act, if the Minister declares an area to be a congested area, then the annuity is halved. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will have a word with the Minister for Lands about that.

I have nothing further to say except that this Budget, irrespective of what Fine Gael or Labour might say about it, has been reasonably well accepted by the public. One of the things we should be glad about is that it was not a Budget that brought in too many increases in taxation which would have increased the price of essential goods, thus increasing the cost of living and bringing on another round of wage increase.

If Deputy Nolan had finished his last sentence by saying: "This Budget could be described as a little bit of everything and not much of anything", I think it would have been a fairer description of it.

The Deputy can say that. I did not.

You went very near it. The wording is very slightly different. This Budget was framed solely for the purposes of the local elections. The Government Party framed it in that manner in an effort to secure a majority for themselves in every county council and corporation. As one who represents the West, I must ask myself what is in this Budget for the west of Ireland. Do any of the Government Ministers realise the situation in the West? I represent in this House almost the whole of County Roscommon and a small portion of County Leitrim. Let us examine the drop in population in both these counties over the past 30 years. In 1936, the population of Roscommon was 77,566 and 30 years later, in 1966, it had fallen to 56,130. In 1936 the population of Leitrim was 50,908 and in 1966, it had dropped to 30,532. Over a period of 30 years in those two counties, we had a total drop in population of 41,812 people, 11,000 people more than the entire population of County Leitrim today. I do not think the Government Party should shut their eyes to that situation because of those 30 years they have been 25 of them in Government. As a Deputy representing those two counties, I think I am entitled to ask the Government what they have done for these two counties. Some glib speakers for the Government Party may say that emigration is solved. As the figures prove, the people have gone and are still going, and I cannot see anything in this Budget to stem that tide.

We often hear about the schemes that were supposed to be in operation in these western counties in the past few years. We have heard of the Undeveloped Areas Act grants, but again I ask the Government what have any of these schemes done to rectify the situation. The productive elements of our society are gone and are going. Only a limited number of young children and mostly elderly people are left. The schools in the west of Ireland are closing rapidly and, in fairness to the Minister for Education, let me say it is not his wish and not the wish of the managers of these schools; they are closing for the want of children to go to them. I cannot see anything in this Budget to rectify that situation.

The attitude adopted during this whole debate by the Government Party is that this is a Budget for the farmers, with emphasis on the small farmers. They talk about derating, about the increased price for pigs and about the 1d a gallon increase in the price of milk. Let us examine what these increases mean. We are all glad to see derating on the first £20 valuation, but from a reply to a Parliamentary Question here last week, it emerged that this is working out at an average saving of £3 17s 6d per year to the farmers. Let us consider what that £3 17s 6d will do. Only the week before last we had an increase of 2d in the price of the loaf. The average household in the country consists of three people. If they eat one-and-a-half loaves per day—and that is not overfeeding them—it will cost £3 0s 10d. It will mean they will gain 7/- as a result of the remission they got in the Budget. That is no great advantage.

Let us consider the increase about which we hear so much and which the Government Party thought would have solved all the farmers' problems, the 1d a gallon on milk. A fair calculation of milk yield would be 600 gallons per cow per year. If the price of milk is increased by 1d per gallon, it will give an extra income of £2 10s. However, a cow produces more than milk. A cow produces a calf, and over the past 18 months the price of the calf has dropped by £15. The net result of the 1d increase per gallon, allowing for the reduction in the price of the calf, is that the farmer is £13 on the wrong end of the balance. That is what the increase in the price of milk means to the farmers, and no matter how it is glossed over, that will not be accepted by the farming community as very much of a concession in the Budget.

The Government cannot run away from the fact that the responsibility for the reduction in the price of cattle rests solely on them. In 1965, at the time of the negotiation of the Free Trade Area Agreement, we were told by the then Minister for Agriculture that the price of cattle would go up £7 to £10 or £10 to £15—I forget the exact figure—but it certainly dropped far more than he told us it would go up. I think the situation was brought about by the introduction of the heifer scheme—I do not want to develop this—and the net result is that the farmers are asked to accept much less for their cattle and, at the same time, pay much more for the commodities they need to maintain themselves and their families and to feed their livestock.

We are also told in the Budget, which has been plugged fairly hard by some of the Government speakers, about the increase in the guaranteed price of pigs by 6/- per cwt. For the past three months, the price paid by factories to pig producers was 8/- more than the guaranteed price. That means that the farmers prior to the Budget were in receipt of 2/- per cwt more than the guaranteed price in the Budget. Only inside the past few weeks we have all had the sad experience here in Ireland of two of the biggest bacon factories closing down, and they closed down solely for the want of pigs.

Every Deputy is glad to see the 5/-increase to the old age non-contributory pensioners, to the widows and to the blind pensioners. I hope Deputy Nolan is correct when he says they will all get this increase irrespective of their means. Only 12 months ago we were also told that old age pensioners, blind pensioners, and widow pensioners would get an increase of 5/-, but the number of those unfortunate people who received that increase was very limited. I hope the Government will not follow the same line in regard to this increase.

It is most unfair to ask these pensioners to wait until 1st August for the increase. We were told here that the prices of beer and tobacco were increased for the purpose of paying the old age pensioners the increase of 5/-. The price of beer was increased on 11th April, the day of the Budget, but the money for which the tax is being imposed will not be paid out until 1st August. It is not right to blow hot and cold. If we collect money from one section to give it to the weaker sections, then it should, I think, be paid out from the day we start collecting it. It is most unfair that these unfortunate people should have to wait.

Some Fianna Fáil speakers have accused us of voting against increases for old age pensioners. We did not vote against them. What we voted against was the increase of 1d on the poor man's pint. There are other ways, we believe, in which this money could be raised. Why was it not collected, for example, on the rich man's half-one? I wonder rather if it was as a result of a direction from Taca, in this its first year of operation, that the Government decided to mulct the poorer sections of our community.

What else?

If that is so, then it is grossly unfair.

That is the whole purpose of Taca.

(Interruptions.)

Order. Deputy Reynolds.

The cost of the insurance stamp is to be increased. Yesterday, in reply to a question, the Minister clearly indicated that he was not prepared to tell the House, even at this stage, by how much the insurance stamp will be increased. Of course, the position now is that one does not have to wait until some date in April or May for the annual Budget. Recently every day is Budget day. In 1965, the insurance stamp was 11/10d, of which 5/11d was contributed by the employer and 5/11d by the employee. In January, 1966, the employer was asked to contribute 7/4d and the employee 7/4d, making the price of the stamp 14/8d. In November of the same year, 1966, the employer was asked to contribute 7/5d and the employee 7/5d, making the total cost of the stamp 14/10d. Within the next few weeks, it will be increased by either 2/6d or 3/-. On top of that, the increase in the Budget will have to be met. It looks as if the price of the stamp by this time next year will be in the region of £1. I do not know what further imposition will be placed on that particular section of our community, or to what extent. It would not surprise me if, inside the next few days, we see increases, as happened before, in postal rates, telephones and so on.

I mentioned bread and several other commodities. Deputy Nolan said there was no scarcity of money last year. Mark you, the Minister for Finance has come in with a credit balance of £1.3 million. It is not unreasonable to ask where this money came from because only a few short months ago we could not get housing grants out of the Department of Local Government. I am not too happy about their being paid freely even today. The Government had to borrow money outside the country.

And found it hard to get it.

Some county councils have borrowed money outside the country. Other county councils have applied to borrow outside the country. In these circumstances, it is difficult to believe there could be a credit balance of £1.3 million. I think all the indications are that this Budget was framed solely for the purpose of the forthcoming local elections.

It is all very well to say there is more money this year than there was last year for housing. One Deputy said there was 9.6 per cent of an increase over last year's figure. If the Government are really serious about getting houses built for our people, may I remind them now that only four years ago a five-roomed house in my constituency cost £1,400. Today, it costs £2,200.

A five-roomed house?

It costs double that in this city.

This is an unserviced house.

Even unserviced houses are not much less than double that.

We are not building unserviced houses any more.

The Parliamentary Secretary is not building any houses worth talking about.

He is not building any houses, serviced or unserviced.

(Interruptions.)

There was only one house built in Donegal last year. I believe there will be a raffle for the one built this year.

In my county only six houses have been built by the local authority in ten years.

Blame the county council.

Oh! Do not blame the Government: blame the county council. There are 22 members on the council and 14 of them are Fianna Fáil.

The Parliamentary Secretary is stabbing his own colleagues in the back. They are not here to defend themselves.

Shame on them!

An Leas Cheann Comhairle

Order.

You stand indicated as well, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, because you are a member of Donegal County Council and Fianna Fáil have a majority there as well.

Would Deputy Harte allow his colleague. Deputy Reynolds, to make his speech?

In Roscommon, over the same period, only 200 houses were built. Again, I suppose, we will be told to blame the local authority. But, again, Fianna Fáil have a majority on that council. These statistics show no great achievement as far as the building of houses is concerned. The grant stands at £300. The agricultural community qualify for an increased grant, but there is some little difficulty in qualifying for an increased grant.

The grant of £300 has remained static over a very long period. Meanwhile, the interest rate on loans for the building of houses has increased from five per cent to eight or eight and a half per cent. I pay my bank manager eight per cent.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27th April, 1967.
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