asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that new tenants of labourers' cottages in County Donegal are being asked to pay rents, inclusive of rates, as high as £3 6s per week; and if, in view of the fact that people find it difficult to pay this high rent, he will state what steps he proposes to take to rectify this situation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - County Donegal Labourers' Cottages.
13.
I am aware that Donegal County Council recently adopted a new differential rents scheme. Under article 4 of the Housing Authorities (Loan Charges Contributions and Management) Regulations, 1967, payment of housing subsidy to the council is conditional on dwellings let by them on income-related rents being let in accordance with a rent scheme approved by me. As Donegal County Council's application for my approval of the new scheme was not received in my Department until yesterday, I am not at present in a position to comment on its provisions.
Does the Minister not agree that the new scheme is as planned by his Department and that, in effect, this will mean substantial increases in the rents payable by people who will be appointed as tenants of those council cottages from now on?
This new scheme was not planned in my Department. It was produced by Donegal County Council and was sent to my Department yesterday for approval. I have not seen it yet.
Question No. 14.
My information is that——
Is this a question? I did not ask the Deputy what his information was.
The Minister might wait until I fall before he attempts to lift me. I am asking the Minister is he aware that this scheme was submitted to the Department over a month ago, but the Department have swept it under the carpet to hide it from the local elections, and if the Minister for Agriculture wishes to answer that question——
Yes.
——he should be manly enough to get up and answer it and to cease prompting the Minister for Local Government. He was long enough in that Department and made a big enough hash of it.
The Deputy's information is wrong and he knows it.
The Deputy's information is correct and you are the man who planned it and you are afraid now to come before the people.
You did not send it up.
I have already stated in my reply that Donegal County Council's application was not received in my Department until yesterday, and I repeat that that is the position——
The Minister for Agriculture swept it under the carpet to hide it.
——and the Deputy is well aware of the fact that that is the position.
You are hiding it from the local elections.
Will the Deputy please cease interrupting?
Nobody in this House knows that better than Deputy Harte.
In view of this unsatisfactory reply, I give notice, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Minister sounds like "The Politicians" programme on television.
It is too late. The Deputy will have to give notice on the next day.
It is before the time stipulated. Standing Orders provide that on a Thursday notice should be given before 4.30 p.m. and if the Taoiseach did not order the Department of Agriculture Estimate as he should have ordered it, then Deputy Harte is within the time.
The Government are entitled to order what business they want without reference to Deputy Sweetman.
And if you did not order the right business, you have only yourselves to blame.
And if you do not know how to deal with important business, we cannot help it.
You are not bringing important business before the House.
Since the House is adjourning immediately after Questions, the Deputy is not in time to give notice.
Standing Orders say on a Thursday before 4.30 p.m. Anybody can see it is before 4.30 p.m. now.
The Dáil is not sitting until the normal hour.
There is no Standing Order that prevents it.
I would like some clarification of that, because I had occasion to give notice at Question Time on a normal Thursday at 2.30 p.m. or going on to 3 o'clock and I was refused permission to raise it on the Adjournment on that day. Now I hear from Deputy Sweetman that if you give notice before 4.30 p.m. on a normal day——
I may be wrong; it may be 3.30 p.m.
Well, it is before 3.30 p.m. now.
I merely want to seek your advice, help and assistance, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, on the point that this might add up to, could easily add up to, an interference with the rights of Deputies to express here what they feel they must express on behalf of their constituents. I know a lot of you would prefer that did not happen.
I cannot have a discussion on this point.
I have no wish at all to do so, but to seek your guidance and help to ensure that the principle that this Dáil will be made available for the ventilating of the grievances of people, despite the efforts of certain gentlemen, whom I shall name, if necessary——
You are in splendid form.
Could we have——
Are there two Deputies speaking together?
Would the Chair decide?
Could we have the Standing Order read out, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?
On a point of order, is it usual for the Chair to arrive at a decision on a matter of this kind in the course of Questions? I understood the usual thing was to give a decision, after it has been properly considered, to the Deputy at a later stage.
That is correct.
Would I be in order in asking that Standing Orders be read out to clarify the position?
No, the Chair does not have to read the Standing Order for the Deputy. The Deputy can do that for himself.
I take it then——
I have already informed the Deputy that he has not given sufficient time to the Chair or to the Minister. The time he has given is only about one half-hour.
Could you explain to me by what method I could give more time to the Minister?
Tell the truth.
Does the Chair consider it is entitled to abrogate Standing Orders. I happen to have been on the Committee that framed that Standing Order.
The Deputy——
Will the Chair hear me on a point of order or is it trying to rule out all discussion except what suits it?
I have already answered a point of order.
This is an outrageous ruling and you, I think, were on that Committee too and are aware that that Committee considered the position that would arise in the event of the Dáil rising sooner than stipulated and still did not amend the order. The order is there and you are deliberately abrogating it.
This is a practice that has obtained all down through the years.
Is it not a fact that Standing Orders allow a Deputy to give notice to a Minister, if he gets an unsatisfactory reply, that he proposes to raise that question on the Adjournment of the House? Am I not within my rights under Standing Orders in claiming that privilege?
In view of the fact——
I am asking for a ruling and not an opinion.
Deputy Harte will not listen to any reply; he keeps talking. The position is that since the House is adjourning after Questions, the Deputy has not given sufficient time to either the Chair to inquire into the question or to the Minister who would have to reply to it.
There is no such Standing Order.
Could we have the Standing Order read out?
Is the Deputy not able to read for himself?
We have read them.
There is nothing in Standing Orders to justify this decision and if there is, will the Chair read it?
Question No. 14.
I am not satisfied. This concerns me very much.
The Deputy can raise it at the next sitting of the Dáil.
I am claiming my privilege. All I ask for is what I am justly entitled to.
Will the Deputy resume his seat?
This is a scandalous abuse of the privilege of this House.
The Deputy is continuously abusing the privileges of this House. He is most disorderly. Will the Deputy please sit down?
I am asking for my rights in this House. The Minister for Agriculture succeeded in pushing it under the carpet and the Minister for Local Government——
Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
This is a ridiculous situation.
The Deputy is inviting me to put him out of the House. I have no intention of putting him out. I am calling the next question.
I want to protest against this ruling. It is a partisan decision in every aspect protecting the Minister for Local Government. I wish to leave the House in protest against your decision.