Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Nov 1967

Vol. 231 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8—Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy Harte).

Mr. James Tully

The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the arterial drainage of the Boyne. He is not quite as definite as he was a few months ago about the actual starting date. May I assume drainage may not start in February, 1968, as was originally stated? Perhaps if he has the information, he will give it when he comes to reply.

The drainage of the Boyne has been talked about for not quite such a long period, perhaps, as the Shannon, but for quite a long period nevertheless. As the Parliamentary Secretary points out, it will affect a considerable area of land in Meath and neighbouring counties. He said in his introductory statement that about 112,000 acres of agricultural land and 26,000 acres of bog could be improved by drainage but the cost of improving about one-sixth of the damaged agricultural land would be uneconomic. This, of course, was not the type of exercise carried out by the Office of Public Works when they were doing earlier drainage because those of us who travel around the country have little difficulty in pointing out large tracts of land along lengths of rivers which were drained, with very little improvement to most of the land concerned. We assume that the only thing that could have brought this situation about was the death of a Deputy; thanks be to God, none of us had to die in Meath to get the Boyne started.

I should like a good deal more information from the Parliamentary Secretary on this whole matter. He refers to a number of bridges, et cetera, which have to be dealt with and how expensive these things can be. He referred also to water supplies, sewage disposal systems, et cetera. While I know the Board of Works have been very careful when dealing with bridges in ensuring that they are replaced reasonably satisfactorily, there is a big problem in relation to water supplies and sewage disposal. Taking water first, it is not unknown, when a scheme is carried out over a wide area, to have the water supply systems to private houses, groups and even villages so badly affected as to become unusable. That is a very serious loss to those concerned. Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us if his Office is responsible and, if not, who is?

With regard to sewage disposal, this is a matter which would come up more relevantly under a different heading but, since the Parliamentary Secretary has referred to it, could he tell me now if there is any possibility of having a treated system of sewage disposal? It is just too bad that sizeable towns, to say nothing of individual houses and villages, are allowed to put untreated sewage into waters subsequently used by others, and sometimes for domestic purposes. There is a typical example of this in Drogheda. The sewage comes into the river and people bathe and fish further down. Surely there should be some more hygienic way of dealing with sewage? Industrial waste also goes into these rivers. Everybody is aware of the damage industrial waste has done to fish life. In some cases fish life has been completely wiped out. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to tell us what will happen there.

There is the problem then of those who will be put out of employment as a result of the drainage of the Boyne. In Mornington at the mouth of the Boyne, there is a community of fishermen. As I have mentioned on innumerable occasions, they live entirely by fishing. From 12th February to 12th August, they fish salmon and from October to the following February they pick mussels. It is a hard life but they seem to do reasonably well, and some do very well. When drainage starts, these will be put out of business. It will be useless to try to net salmon while the river is being cleaned because of the mud and debris being carried down. In any case, the fish will not come into the mouth of the Boyne while it is polluted with this mud and debris. Is it proposed to do anything by way of compensating the fishermen for the loss they will suffer?

Similarly, mussels are a very delicate type of fish. They will be killed very quickly. If mud is carried down over the mussel beds the beds will be wiped out and the entire industry will cease. There is no point in arguing that these people will get employment on drainage work. Some of them will, but only some. There is no point in saying they will get employment in the proposed fish meal factory. There are roughly 40 families involved; the men, women and children all engage in mussel fishing and the men and children engage in salmon fishing. This is a very important matter for them and, if something is not done, the entire community could be wiped out. They may become scattered all over the world. The younger men in Mornington usually go to sea for a spell. They get their mates' tickets and then they settle down in Mornington at fishing. Some go as pilots to the Drogheda Harbour Commissioners. In the main, they live entirely off the river. I should be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary would tell me in as much detail as possible what is proposed for these people. I do not want him to tell me the Boyne Board of Conservators will look after their interests. I will not accept that. Neither do I want to be told that the fishing interests on the river will look after the interests of these people because, again, neither I nor those concerned will be prepared to accept that.

A number of angling clubs will also be affected. It is too bad—I say this as an angler myself—that they should be discommoded, that they will not be able to fish and have their relaxation but it is not the loss of their livelihood whereas it is a loss for the Mornington fishermen. Similarily, up the river, there are a few stretches set by reasonably wealthy people to more wealthy people for a day's salmon fishing for as much as £5 and sometimes more. Again, while it will be a loss to them and a source of annoyance and disappointment to the people who usually fish there, they are not in the same category as the fishermen at Mornington.

The suggestion has been made that, from Navan down to Drogheda the Boyne should not be cleaned in the normal way, that it would be sufficient to clean out the islands, shape the banks and attend to any serious defect that requires attention. Possibly this may be a solution. There appears to be a drop of 210 feet from the weir at Navan to the bar at Drogheda. This is something that has to be considered and explained to the people concerned. While the fishing interests are very anxious that it should be dealt with in this way, the amount of land flooded by the Boyne, the Blackwater and all the tributaries is so great that whatever is done should be a decent job. I know the entire area from one end to the other, for various reasons, and I should be very anxious——

Mr. Carty

Not poaching?

Mr. James Tully

As a matter of fact, the Parliamentary Secretary is not 100 miles away but that was long, long ago.

Mr. Carty

The Deputy is fishing for other things now.

Mr. James Tully

Votes, maybe, and not unsuccessfully, thank God.

Mr. J. Gibbons

A fisher of men.

Mr. James Tully

The women have votes as well as the men. The question of spoil comes up. What will be done with the spoil on the Boyne? The most unsightly thing that one can see is a heap of spoil along the bank of a river. It is very annoying to have to look at it but it is even more annoying to a small farmer who finds what he considers an unreasonable amount of spoil piled up on his land. When the Dee was done some years ago, the people doing the job decided, for some extraordinary reason, to deposit most of the spoil of one length of the river on a small portion of land attached to the house of a man who had only one acre—and that spoil lay there for years. It was rather a stupid thing to do and it made the man mad.

Spoil disposal will have to be tackled. We are now in the conveyor-belt age. We have quite an amount of waste land, quarries, bogholes, and so on, that could possibly be filled with spoil from a river rather than leaving it on a bank. A member of my county council suggested that the canal between Navan and Drogheda might be filled in with spoil. I am not taking sides on this because I do not know the technicalities. Will the draining of the Boyne have the effect of draining the canal which runs alongside? If so, the proper thing would be to fill it up and possibly a road could be made on it. If the canal is to be re-opened as a beauty spot, it will need a lot more attention than it is now getting.

The Boyne should be drained to the best possible advantage. I mentioned that land has been flooded. There is also the question of houses. A lot of flooding has occurred in Navan and Trim, particularly, over the years. There has been the suggestion that the cleaning of the Boyne is likely to flood Drogheda. Such stupid comments are made by people who do not know the facts. The sea is at Drogheda and a lot of water will have to flow into it before it will come back on the land, that is, except at high tide. I want the drainage to be such that at no time will there be any question of a back-flow of water into the houses at Trim or Navan.

The question of maintenance costs arises. At present, the maintenance costs for these jobs are passed on to the local authority. I do not expect miracles but could the Parliamentary Secretary say what the maintenance of the Boyne is likely to cost and what allocation will be made to Meath County Council? Numerous figures have been mentioned such as 9/6d in the £ down to 4/- in the £ on the rates. This would be very serious if it were true. The Parliamentary Secretary should clarify the position as soon as possible. If it will be in the region of 4/- in the £, upwards, the Government will have to subsidise heavily maintenance costs for rivers. I would also suggest that the local authority should carry out the maintenance. That would guarantee that whatever money is allocated will be spent in the local authority area. Disappointment has been expressed that, when we pay a fairly substantial sum for the maintenance of rivers running through our area, very little of the money seems to be spent in our area. No doubt there is a reason for that but if the work could be passed on to the local authority it would improve the position.

Deputy Harte spoke of the conditions of employment of people in the Office of Public Works. The Parliamentary Secretary bragged that there had been no major industrial dispute on the job. We are all glad of that. It is not because of ideal conditions or excellent wages that no industrial dispute has occurred. People working on the job complain that shelters are not provided, no matter how bad the weather. The Forestry Division, Bord na Móna and some local authorities have found it possible to provide portable shelters. It should not be beyond the ability of the Office of Public Works to do likewise.

The question of hours of work arises. Why should Government Departments, particularly the Office of Public Works, insist on their men working for a few hours on Saturday, to make up their week, when all local authority employees in the area and all officials of the Office of Public Works—except the people of whom I speak—are on a five-day week? Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander? If it is possible for everybody else to work a five-day week it is ridiculous to ask men working with the Office of Public Works on arterial drainage to travel 15 to 20 miles in order to put in a few hours work on Saturday. One man pointed out to me that he was travelling so far that the amount he was getting for working on Saturday would not pay for the petrol for his car. If he did not go to work, the job would not be there for him on Monday morning. It is ridiculous that this situation should continue.

The position of the Office of Public Works up to now, like the Department of Lands, was that they would not agree with the agreement we had with local authorities, that men should work longer hours in summer so that the average 45-hour week could be worked. The majority of local authorities are now working an average of 42½ hours a week. There is no necessity to work longer than nine hours at any period of the year in order to make up the number of hours and surely there should no longer be any reason why the Office of Public Works would not put these men on a five-day week of 42½ hours. They work very hard and they have to work in very bad conditions. The conditions of employment of the Office of Public Works are perhaps the worst in any rural employment. I am not blaming the Office of Public Works for that. There is no point in saying that these men do not have to get wet or that they should not have to go to the bottom of a muddy river. The job cannot be done unless they are prepared to do that. As long as it is recognised that they are doing it, some appreciation should be shown and they should not have to be Cinderellas of employment. It should not be said that everybody else in the Office of Public Works can work a five-day week but that these men must still turn up on Saturday mornings during winter because they are what they are.

It is of interest to note that a number of industrial employers adopted a five-day week because it did not pay them to operate machinery for the few hours on Saturday. They felt it was good economics to try to have it worked on five days. I would recommend to the Parliamentary Secretary, who is a reasonable man and is familiar with conditions, as he comes from the country, that this matter should be looked into. There is another complaint which I will just mention in passing because I have already brought it to the notice of the Office by way of a trade union complaint. While a bonus system is operating which yields a certain amount of money to certain employees, there are areas in which the bonus system does not operate at all. The people in these areas rightly say that they are at a loss at least of the average amount which those on the bonus scheme are getting. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary might do something about that. The thing that annoys me as a trade union official is that if I send in a complaint to a Department, I get back an acknowledgement and then several weeks later, I receive a letter putting up an argument which cannot hold water, and if I reply and ask for a conference to discuss the matter, then I find that either the typist must have sprained her wrist or something else happened because it is extremely difficult to get a further reply for months. These matters should be dealt with in a different way. There is no point in Ministers or Departments preaching the need for good labour relations to everybody else when they themselves do not appear to recognise that their employees are also entitled to good labour relations.

In regard to the scheme, would it be possible to have a copy of this scheme or a copy of the portions affecting particular areas made available to members of local authorities? Whether one is a member of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, Labour or an Independent, as a local authority member, one will be expected to know what exactly is happening. The only way this will be possible is to get a copy of the scheme relating to the portion of the area they represent. Some years ago, I had the experience of trying to explain to an irate old farmer how a drain on his land was pegged and was not done and a drain on a neighbour's farm was not pegged and was done. If I had been fortunate enough to have had a copy of the map for the area, it would have been easy enough to show him either that it was not intended to do it or that he had been diddled. I was never sure which.

Mr. J. Gibbons

What did you tell him?

Mr. James Tully

I asked him did he not know that the Government never did anything right. The Board of Works have been doing arterial drainage work by direct labour and the Parliamentary Secretary has paid tribute to these workers. They are doing a good job. The time has come, however, in regard to other work carried out by the Board of Works to revert to direct labour. I do not know whether the story is true or not but there is a story that a lot of work done under the Board of Works is done by what are described by the Parliamentary Secretary as contractors but who more appropriately might be described as agents. They are paid commission for the number of men they make available for employment. In some peculiar way, they are supposed to be contractors for the job, but yet the work is almost completely carried out by direct labour, except for this peculiar twist. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to explain that. If the Chair will excuse me, I am referring particularly to one place where we see huge notices on which the contractor's name is given as "Stone".

Schools have been referred to and while it appears from the statement that quite a number of schools have been renovated and a number of new one built, we still have a long way to go. I have a question down for next week, which I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be answering. I thought I would catch him before this Estimate came up for debate. The question is in regard to the number of schools in each county which have been declared unfit, which need repair or replacement. I think the number will be fairly sizeable. However, schools are being erected and we are very proud of our modern schools, but if the rate of erection or repair, particularly in regard to sanitary accommodation, can be accelerated, everybody will be satisfied.

I should like now to refer to Leinster House where quite a substantial amount of work has been done. I note that it is proposed to have a press diningroom. It is proposed to convert the old diningroom into a press diningroom. Could the Parliamentary Secretary say if a change has been made here? I understood originally that the press were to continue dining in the Members' diningroom, with Deputies and Senators, and when was the decision made to change it? I should also like to inquire what is the position about the erection of some kind of canteen for members of the staff? It is all right saying that the staff can dine in a special dining hall that has been prepared for them but I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of their rates of pay. Many of them do not find it possible to dine there. It is ridiculous to suggest they should be able to pay the prices they are asked. This has nothing to do with the Parliamentary Secretary except the provision of accommodation.

If it is true a number of them find it impossible out of their present wages to pay something over £1 per day for two meals, surely some type of cafeteria should be made available to them? Would the Parliamentary Secretary consider something on those lines? There is no point saying they have this accommodation if they cannot afford to use it. The alternative is to give them a decent rate of wages which would include an allowance for meals.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary be able to say when it is hoped to have the remainder of the work done on the old accommodation which was to be converted for staff use? My recollection is that at a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges several months ago, we understood instructions had been given to renovate and redecorate certain portions of the House, which formerly had been used by Deputies, for the purpose of accommodating staff. Nothing must have been done. The Labour Party occupy one room on the fourth floor and the other side of the corridor is occupied by members of the staff. It is still hard for me, as Party Whip, to explain to some of my people how four of them have to use one small room while across the corridor one official, perhaps a junior official, has twice as big a room for himself. Could the Parliamentary Secretary say when he thinks this job will be completed so that the staff can move into their own accommodation and leave for Deputies the accommodation that was supposed to be for them?

Reference was made to coast protection. It appears that, apart from passing the Act in this House, very little more was done. I do not know whether that was the original intention. We are accused at times of being good at making laws which appear to suit everybody so long as we do not have to implement them. This is one law which is of absolutely no use. I was told some years ago that the reason it was so hard to get work done on this was that only one inspector was allocated to it. Under the peculiar system, the local authority notified the Department of the necessity to have the work done; an inspector inspected it, said whether or not it would be necessary and what the cost would be; and then the local authority carried out of the work. This was the routine recommendation. It appears to have fallen down completely. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would say if that is the position and, if so, let us know. Otherwise, those of us in the coastal areas will continue to be pressed by people who can show us, even on the flat parts of the east coast, where coast erosion has been literally carrying fields away. To my own knowledge, and I have been only 25 years in the area, acres have disappeared from flat parts of the coast. I can imagine what could happen on the wild western coast where the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach attempts to exist.

With regard to arterial drainage. I have had a complaint from certain landowners and householders along rivers which are being surveyed. If a group of men are going to work beside a house, particularly in an isolated area, a recommendation might be made that, out of courtesy, notice of that fact might be given to householders at least a day before. Some people are rather touchy about these things and it is rather embarrassing. It has been brought to my notice by a few people, who were carrying on as they usually do, which maybe was not the best way, that they suddenly found a group of spectators, men who were surveying a river and in one case who were doing a certain amount of work beside the house. I can understand the embarrassment. If it can be avoided by the simple courtesy of telling them beforehand, honour will be done all around.

I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has mentioned that the work at Newgrange and Dowth is being carried on and is yielding satisfactory results. I am also glad he did not succeed in getting a couple of lorries down and carting it into Dublin last week.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Some of it is there.

Mr. James Tully

I know, but it went in before the Parliamentary Secretary knew about it. He would have stopped it if he had known. Although this is a rather backward area—for a time I doubted the wisdom of putting a tourist office there because I wondered if anybody could get in touch with it—nevertheless the expenditure of money here would yield excellent results. Indeed we are lucky to have in Meath, in addition to Tara, places like Newgrange and Dowth. When the job is completed, will adequate protection be put around it to ensure that unauthorised persons will not attempt to do a little bit of excavating of their own for souvenirs and perhaps do irreparable damage to the priceless work of art these tumuli represent?

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. Carty)

I should like to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the excellent record of achievement by the Board of Works he has presented to us today. I am delighted he mentioned the rather sarcastic references made from time to time to the activities of the Board of Works. They are often called "inactivities". The people living in my part of the country, where at present two drainage schemes are in operation, speak other than sarcastically of the Board of Works.

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board on the work done on the Corrib drainage scheme, the Headford drainage scheme and the Killimor-Cappagh drainage scheme. The work is of the highest quality. The advantages that will accrue from it, and are already accuring to the beneficiaries, cannot be over-emphasised. I can say with all sincerity that the farmers of my area who have benefited and will benefit are deeply grateful to the Board. They appreciate the work that has been done to improve their lands and render these lands more capable of development by virtue of the fact that they will be adequately drained and small farmers can avail of the many schemes, particularly the Land Project schemes, that are there for the asking.

Deputy Tully referred to the demand made by the workers for a five-day week. I should like to add my voice to his in appealing to the Parliamentary Secretary to arrange, if at all possible, for a five-day week for these workers, many of whom have to travel long distances to their place of employment. Last Saturday I met a man who told me he had travelled 14 miles to work and 14 miles back in very inclement weather to put in a few hours on a Saturday so as to make up his quota of work. I think work could be so arranged as to allow people to put in the required number of working hours, per week in a five-day week. It might eman extra hours per day or a reduction in the number of working hours, but I would ask the Board of Works not to be backward in dealing with this demand that has been made and is being made by workers.

I take this opportunity of asking the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some definite information about the commencement date of the Dungkellin scheme. Time and again over the past few years, my colleagues, Deputy Millar and Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins, have been pestering him with questions here in Dáil Éireann and privately by writing to him, to glean some definite information about the commencement date of this proposed scheme. There is no area as badly affected in my constituency as the catchment area of this proposed scheme. West of Craughwell and between Craughwell and the sea there is a vast area of land—and when I say a vast area, I mean thousands of acres—flooded for six or seven months of the year. It is known as the Rahasne Turlough. This is an area of small farmers for whom drainage work of this type is a must if they are to survive. We know this scheme is to start within the next year or two, but we want to know will it start immediately after the completion of the Corrib drainage scheme or has it to wait its turn until the Killimor-Cappagh scheme has been finished. Perhaps he would give us some information on that.

Reverting again to the Parliamentary Secretary's introductory statement, I am rather surprised at Deputy Tully saying that very little has been done by way of replacing national schools. If he only went to the trouble of listening to the Parliamentary Secretary explaining what has been done in relation to national schools, he would not make a statement like that. The Parliamentary Secretary says:

Nearly one in every three schools standing today was either built or modernised since 1957.

Mr. Coughlan

"Nearly" is the operative word.

Mr. Carty

Nearly one in every three.

Mr. Coughlan

What does that mean?

Mr. Reynolds

It means that in relation to two out of every three nothing was done.

Mr. Carty

It means that out of a possible three——

Mr. Reynolds

He says nearly one out of every three.

Mr. Carty

That is a fairly good record. The Parliamentary Secretary supplemented this statement by giving statistics of what in fact has been done in different parts of the country, in counties as far apart as Donegal and Waterford. I am aware of the work he has done in my county, and I know that this work of replacing insanitary and unsuitable national schools with new schools, improving existing schools and extending them in many cases, has been going on apace. Although many schools were in a fair state of repair, the fact that there has been an emphasis recently on the provision of central schools in parishes has added considerably to the work that has been undertaken by the Board. At present there is in the course of erection in my own town a new national school the design of which is a credit to the Board of Works. I think the Parliamentary Secretary, when he happened to be in the area some time ago, took the opportunity of visiting this school and making himself familiar with the conditions there.

I had occasion to ask him recently to give serious consideration to the provision of a tarred or macadamed playground there so as to prevent flooding from a river nearby. A river which was diverted some short while ago to serve new houses has caused some periodic flooding or made the land marshy. I trust it will be possible to get a grant for this type of work. I understand the scheme is running below the estimate of the Board and it might be possible in connection with the new boys' school in Loughrea to make this extra grant available.

There is one matter which has caused me great amusement in the course of the past few days. It is this controversy about the removal of ancient monuments to Dublin. I went to see the Rosc Exhibition, particularly that part of it which is housed next door, and I was agreeably surprised at the excellence of what I saw. However, I was particularly amused at what I read in the papers about the protests made by well-meaning people who should know better about the removal of the Turoe Stone and other ancient monuments to Dublin.

This is part of the catalogue of the Rosc Exhibition, and it says the following additional items, that is, over and above the Turoe Stone, the Tau Cross and other ancient monuments, will be exhibited in the National Museum: No. 216, Neolithic decorated stone from small burial mound at Newgrange; removed in 1964 by the excalenc vator, Professor M.J. O'Kelly, with the consent of the Commissioners of Public Works: Pocked decoration, painting modern; No. 217, Neolithic decorated stone from roof of passage in main tumulus at Newgrange; removed in 1964 by the excavator, Professor M.J. O'Kelly, with the consent of the Commissioners of Public Works: Pocked decoration, painting modern: Lent by the Commissioners of Public Works; No. 218, Neolithic decorated stone from roof of passage in main tumulus at Newgrange; removed in 1964 by the excavator, Professor M.J. O'Kelly, with the consent of the Commissioners of Public Works: Pocked decoration, painting modern: Lent by the Commissioners of Public Works.

What amuses me is that this was the gentleman who removed three exhibits and placed them in the National Museum through the good offices of the Commissioners of Public Works, and he objects to monuments like the Turoe Stone being brought to Dublin and lent to the Rosc exhibition. He gave "who began it" to the Minister for Finance for allowing his Parliamentary Secretary to engage in the removal of these ancient monuments to Dublin despite the fact that he had done it himself in 1964. National monuments like the Turoe Stone, the Tau Cross and these neolithic decorated stones from different parts of the country are the property of the Irish nation, and if they are confined to localities and not lent to an exhibition as well known internationally as the Rosc Exhibition, it is an insult to the Irish nation to deprive our people of seeing these monuments. I compliment the Parliamentary Secretary, the Office of Public Works and the Minister on the decision they took and on paying no heed to these learned gentlemen who if they see things themselves want no one else to see them, or give that impression. I am particularly interested in the Turoe Stone and Rath of Feerwore because it is within 150 or 200 yards of where I teach.

Some of the comments I heard were a source of great amusement to me. A number of worthies around Loughrea were asked by a local paper to comment on this controversy. So far as I know, there was no controversy except that raised by the paper itself. I doubt if any of these people who are protesting so loudly and vehemently about the removal of the Turoe Stone could distinguish between that stone and the stone outside Dan Murphy's door.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Carty

According to the newspaper, one of these worthies said the Turoe Stone was standing in the same spot in the same locality for over 2,000 years. Dr. Joseph Rafferty of the National Museum has written extensively about this and he says:

The stone now stands on the lawn in front of Turoe House, Loughrea, County Galway, but the tradition that it originally stood beside the ring-fort known locally as the ‘rath of Feerwore' appears to be well founded.

When people talk glibly about this stone having been in the same place for over 2,000 years they are talking through their hats, and when they talk about the interest the people in the locality have in the stone they are also talking through their hats. I doubt very much if any of these people have taken the trouble to visit this place. My motive in saying this might be a little out of place here because I see it regularly. A Fianna Fáil cumann meeting is held in the locality and I have occasion to go there now and again.

Mr. Coughlan

Once a year?

Mr. Carty

More than once a year.

Mr. Harte

Is that where the Parliamentary Secretary got his knowledge?

Mr. Carty

No. I will give this book to Deputy Harte and it might improve his knowledge of national monuments. There are a good many ancient monuments on his front bench.

Mr. Harte

Provided there is nothing in it about Fianna Fáil cumainn.

Mr. Carty

Not a bit.

Mr. Coughlan

They are fossils.

Mr. Carty

I thought the Deputy was talking about Fine Gael. Fossils are not being exhibited in the National Museum. I do not think the Commissioners of Public Works would go that far.

The Parliamentary Secretary also referred to the fact that the catchment areas in different parts of the country are being surveyed. I thought a survey was made some years ago and an order of priority determined, and that the order of priority was being strictly adhered to. Is it possible that the order of priority is being changed or maybe a new survey with a different aim is now being conducted?

I want to take this opportunity once more to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works on the excellence of the work they have been doing, particularly in the field of drainage, and in the field of replacing national schools, the need for which is well established.

Mr. Coughlan

This Estimate lends itself to a discussion of matters of local interest rather than matters of national importance. I suppose we have to confine ourselves to matters which interest us locally——

Mr. Carty

Keep out of West Limerick.

Mr. Coughlan

——even though we may be a bit further advanced in many ways than the village from which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach comes. I want to confine my remarks to the area that concerns me. I am particularly interested in the disability of the Parliamentary Secretary to lend an eye or an ear to the wants of my area. Deputy Carty quoted what the Parliamentary Secretary has done from Donegal to Waterford but he forgot to say he took it in one leap and skipped over several counties in the journey from Donegal to Waterford. I am sure he did not travel overland when he gave us the picture of what he was doing.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Coughlan

I want to deal now with the question of schools, which is I am sure very close to Deputy Carty's heart, he having taught for many years in that noble and historic village from which he comes.

Mr. Carty

I beg your pardon, Sir; I come from a town.

Mr. Coughlan

Everything depends on the size of the eye that views it.

Mr. Carty

Is the Deputy not a big boy now to be talking like that?

Mr. Coughlan

We are getting into more intimate matters now which some of us would perfer to leave on one side.

I am particularly interested in this matter of schools and their upkeep and renovation and particularly their closure. We have heard nothing about the closure of the schools that is going on.

Mr. Carty

That is for the Minister for Education.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Coughlan

I want to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the fact that a school costing £55,000 was opened with glamour and acclaim 15 months ago and is now closed.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for another Minister.

Mr. Coughlan

I should like to know what the Parliamentary Secretary intends to do about this?

Mr. Carty

A fine dry house.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not the function of the Parliamentary Secretary. It is a matter for the Minister for Education.

Mr. Coughlan

Seeing that the money was provided by the Board of Works, surely to heaven the man who pays the piper has some entitlement to call the tune.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the relevant Estimate.

Mr. Coughlan

Having said that, we will leave things as they are.

Mr. Carty

We will get the Deputy the music for that tune.

Mr. Coughlan

I know the music the Parliamentary Secretary would provide, a tin whistle. Mine would be an oboe. The Parliamentary Secretary might not understand what kind of an instrument that is.

Mr. Carty

Broken reed—Labour.

Mr. Coughlan

Split Party—Fianna Fáil.

I want to know what the Parliamentary Secretary is doing with regard to the repair and replacement of the Garda barracks in Limerick and the surrounding area. We have been advocating in Limerick city for nigh on 25 years the provision of a suitable barrack for the guards in Limerick. We have been getting delays and promises that they are looking into it and that they are looking for a site and looking for all kinds of things but nothing whatsoever has been done.

An Ceann Comhairle

Again I think the decision to provide a Garda barracks would be a matter for the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Coughlan

With all due respect it says here:

Subhead D provides the funds for acquisition of sites for new Garda Stations and other public buildings.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Board of Works carry out the instructions of the various other Departments.

Mr. Coughlan

Surely to heavens the Parliamentary Secretary is responsible for the acquisition of sites and that is what I am interested in. The need for a Garda barracks in Limerick has been commented on in their own monthly magazine.

Mr. Carty

The Leader?

Mr. Coughlan

No, the Garda Review. The barracks have been described as outmoded, outdated and should have been condemned. If we, in the local authority, had the power to condemn these buildings which are under the control of the Parliamentary Secretary, we would have no hesitation in condemning them, none whatever.

Mention has been made of the provision of houses. No provision has ever been made for houses for the Gardaí in Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for another Estimate. If the Deputy would only listen the matters referred to by the Deputy are for another Minister, the Minister for Justice, who decides, whether houses or barracks should be built. The Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible for that.

Mr. Coughlan

I am talking about the acquisition of sites. Subhead D, section 3, provides for the acquisition of sites.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, when the Minister agrees to provide a barracks or a school on a certain site.

Mr. Coughlan

You must get the site first before you build. You cannot build it in the air.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

How many of them were built in Limerick last week? There are factories and schools all over Limerick.

Mr. James Tully

That was the Shannon Development Area.

Mr. Coughlan

I would impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the need and the urgency for the provision of those sites. We will see about the erection of the buildings afterwards but first of all we must provide the sites. Indeed it is a sad state of affairs when you get men stationed in Limerick who, up to two years ago, lived in some frugal comfort within the confines of the barracks. They are always on call when they are at the station. Now they are around in different places all over the city and they are getting much better lodgings than they would get in the village of Loughrea.

Mr. Carty

Two steps down.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Not the same facilities though.

Mr. Millar

Not the same room for promotion.

Mr. Coughlan

I would press the Parliamentary Secretary to take this matter up and in his reply I want, once and for all, to get something concrete and something definite with regard to his proposal for this particular need.

I now want to take the Parliamentary Secretary to something which is much more remunerative and which I have been discussing with him and his office for a long time. That is the question of the exhibition of historic buildings, not stones or bits of stone about which we have all the hullabulloo going on at the present time. As we are talking about these ancient monuments and stones I want to say here that having attended the opening of the RDS exhibition——

Mr. Carty

The Ard Fheis?

Mr. Coughlan

The RDS. You will have enough on your plate next week. Seeing what is going on among yourselves at the moment, I do not know how you will finish at all. You will need a cat-o-nine-tails—a single whip will not do you. I want to say that as far as that opening is concerned on last Sunday afternoon I never saw such a display of Ascot-like snobbery in all my life as I saw that afternoon outside in the RDS grounds. Indeed they were a damn bad exhibition and a damn bad portrayal of the cultural life of the country and let that go on record. They were nearer to a gang of hippies and minis tht you would see in any Continental city in Europe. Put that with your ancient monuments now.

I want to refer to a matter which is much more remunerative and much more attractive and much more presentable as something Irish, something culturally sound and something which belongs to the people, that is, the history and the attachments of my city and county with the past. It is not once or twice I have brought this to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary and indeed to the notice of his predecessor, who should be much more alive to the fact. Not alone did he close his two eyes to the matter but he went blindfolded, while he was in that particular office with regard to anything to develop and attract tourists to the historic city and county of Limerick. We have in that city a monument unsurpassed in this country today and it is not mentioned in this document.

Mr. Millar

Donogh O'Malley.

Mr. Coughlan

He is among the ancient monuments in this country.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy does not want a TD stone taken to Dublin.

Mr. Coughlan

We have heard a lot said about monuments in Galway, Clare, Donegal and even in Cork where there is not one as ancient as you. We have heard a lot mentioned about all those monuments and not one word mentioned, good, bad or indifferent, about Limerick in connection with the past. The monuments are there.

Mr. Donnellan

The by-election is over.

Mr. Coughlan

They are going to rack and ruin. Let it be said to the credit of the Parliamentary Secretary and his Office that having put extreme pressure on him, they condescended to appoint a caretaker for this historic monument. The applications were so numerous that it had to go to the Appointments Commission— the applications in writing together with a sum of ten guineas to prove the bona fides of each application. Indeed the person appointed got the princely sum of £1 per week for taking care of King John's Castle in Limerick.

Mr. Carty

Five to one: £10 to win £50.

Mr. Coughlan

We have not all collected yet from the by-election. It is coming in from every direction still.

Mr. J. Gibbons

The Deputy must not have backed his own.

Mr. Coughlan

It is about time, and it is only fair, that having some experience of the wealth which existed with regard to the monuments and historic buildings we have around our neighbourhood, such as Bunratty, a much more historic and a much more attractive monument in the city of Limerick should have been preserved. This monument has been allowed to go derelict, with weeds growing on the walls and not a penny being spent on its upkeep. I do not know when the Parliamentary Secretary will get around to it. It is not included in this document for the next 12 months. I do not know whether we will have to go and organise a parade from Limerick and sit outside, not the half-door in Loughrea but outside his own office to get something done.

Mr. Carty

Invite him down to Limerick.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Coughlan should be allowed to proceed.

Mr. Coughlan

It reminds me of what happened a fortnight ago. I have an old cat at home about 25 years old and it had kittens in the early morning about a fortnight ago. The catterwauling and bawling was nothing like what you hear now from the Fianna Fáil benches. Get yourself a half pint of milk; go away and enjoy yourself. Now, to get back to the realism of this matter.

Mr. Carty

King John's Castle the Deputy was on.

Mr. Coughlan

The Estimate is for £9 million and I must congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on this, particularly, when there is an increase of £925,000 but the Parliamentary Secretary has not said how much is going into wages and salaries and the increases that have been given.

Mr. J. Gibbons

It is in the Book of Estimates.

Mr. Coughlan

I thought that when we had a Minister in Limerick something would be done. The Parliamentary Secretary looked after anything of historic importance in Kilkenny, small though it be, but he has not done anything to attract tourists to the particular part of the country I refer to. He has not done anything to attract tourists to the monuments we have in the city and county of Limerick.

Now, having left the city, I want to refer to Lough Gurr. The Parliamentary Secretary knows, from travelling all over Europe and seeing some of the ancient places in Europe, together with Deputy Carty, before he leaves the House, the value of those attractive places. Those are attractive to tourists and visitors but nothing has been done with regard to Limerick to attract tourists.

Mr. Corry

O'Malley is an attraction.

Mr. Coughlan

He gave you your answer about a half an hour ago. Go back and speak to the manager of your authority and then come up here with your troubles and we will help you out. Do not be making mountains out of nothing.

I now want to refer to the manner in which drainage operations are carried out. Deputy Carty smiles because of course something was done outside his half-door. I would advise Deputy Carty, some day he has very little to do, to take a plane from Dublin Airport to Renmore, to travel by air on his way to Galway, and when he passes over the different counties, he will see what the country is like. He will see in his own county, and every other county, lakes and water all over the place. If that is a compliment to the Board of Works for the work done, the Parliamentary Secretary's estimation and mine are poles apart.

Agitations have been going on for 30 years in my area. We have had agitations in the City of Limerick going on during all that time. I have to be parochial on this issue because this is an Estimate which has to be treated parochially. We cannot treat it outside the scope of our own area. I want to refer the Parliamentary Secretary to a deputation which he received, courteously, as is his manner, two years ago but that is as far as we got. That agitation has been going on for over 30 years with regard to this particular drainage scheme. It is not anything like the drainage of the Shannon which we have mentioned in this document today and about which I suppose our great grandchildren, if they have the ill-luck to succeed us here, will hear the same old repetitious statements here in this House.

I want the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us how much drainage work is to be done on the River Maigue and its tributaries. One particular tributary which flows into the Maigue causes severe flooding in and around Limerick. The land there is flooded for at least six months every year for miles around. The agitation has been going on for well over 30 years. In fact it has been going on for nearly 40 years but nothing is ever done about it. I understand we are coming up here next Wednesday, to meet the Parliamentary Secretary with regard to this matter.

Mr. J.M. Gibbons

On Thursday.

Mr. Coughlan

I trust that we will be received in a courteous manner and that we will not go away with one hand as long as the other, as we did in the past. We were told: "You are on the list," but nothing has been done. These unfortunate people are paying city rates which are very high, which are too high, and are getting no return, good, bad or indifferent. Other schemes in Limerick were dealt with much more expeditiously—there may be a reason for it—in the past. What was done could by no means be compared with what should have been done two or three miles away. As I say, there may have been a reason for it, but I hope that when we meet the Parliamentary Secretary next Thursday, he will have some consoling news for those people who are affected. They are mostly market gardeners and small farmers. They need this relief and they are prepared, as they have done in the past, to put their hands in their pockets and pay in some way for the work that is to be done.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer. It is concerned with employment in the Board of Works. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary understands the difference between temporary and permanent employment. I know of men engaged in the Board of Works for eight to ten years who are still treated as temporary workers. They are skilled men in their particular line but here they are on a casual basis, having no permanency, and not having the benefit of all that goes with permanency, superannuation, sickness benefits, and so on. There is not such thing in the Office of Public Works for those workers. I am sure that the people two or three steps above them are well fortified against the future but it is not fair that a man should have worked eight or ten years with a Department and still be treated as temporary, even though he works the year round and works according to the conditions laid down for his employment. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to get into 1967. I know he has the ability, the courage and the foresight to see that we are in 1967 and moving into 1968 and the 70s when bigger things will have to be done. I would ask him to give these people that security of free employment which we are fighting for every day of the week.

Deputy Carty mentioned the difference between the five and six day week. That has its own importance. It, too, can be got over and a man will be satisfied if he has to work on a Saturday morning, provided he knows he is in permanent employment, that his work will be appreciated and that there is security for him in his job. I mentioned this to the Parliamentary Secretary and I got the same Civil Service reply: it was a temporary position and that was all there was about it. I know the Parliamentary Secretary and I know he understands fully the circumstances of these cases. Supposing those people said: "If you were in my shoes, what would you do?" That is not the approach in the Civil Service. They will get the same reply this year as they did last year: "We are all OK and to hell with Jack." I know that is not the Parliamentary Secretary's approach and I want to bring to his notice the fact that he should give these employees a sense of permanency and the feeling that their work is appreciated. He will get a damn sight more out of them than he is getting at the moment, if he does.

Mention has been made of drainage work done and maintenance costs. These are a charge on the local authorities. All these banks that are repaired are public property and there is a right-of-way for pedestrians, and so on. I believe this should be a national charge and not a local charge on the ratepayers of a particular area. This is something we have to arrest, this Parkinson's theory in regard to the question of money. One Department will tell you this, particularly the Department of Social Welfare and the Department of Local Government with regard to rates and home assistance, but it is all fired back on the unfortunate people who are paying indirectly for the upkeep of the State. This should be a national charge which would reduce the impact on the rates.

If the people who are so vehement about these matters would realise how exactly these things come about and the approaches that have been made by the Department. I am sure their views would be changed not alone every day of the week but particularly on polling day when they go like blind men into something that has been camouflaged three or four weeks prior to the election.

There is another matter which the Parliamentary Secretary will understand exactly. From his travels abroad, he has the experience and he has the sense to understand the value of what I am about to say. I mention the provision of slips for fishing. There are other things besides fishing connected with his Department, and I would ask him to direct his attention to the provision of slips at rivers and lakes as a tourist attraction for houseboats and motorboats and the other facilities the tourist wants. We know with regard to tourism at the present time that the inclination is to get off the roads and on to the rivers and lakes in boats. We in Limerick are ideally situated in that respect. We have the Upper and Lower Shannon and we have 40 miles down the Shannon, the Upper Shannon to Athlone and on to Leitrim, if people want to go there.

I would direct the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to Limerick, being adjacent to the Shannon, and suggest that it should be made an attractive area for houseboats and speedboats, as he has seen them abroad. In the Scandinavian countries, particularly, hundreds and thousands of these boats are lined up, rather like the cars one sees at Croke Park on an All-Ireland football or hurling final day. Limerick is ideally situated for such development and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at it. We will be sending him our ideas on paper with regard to the development of Limerick in a smaller way, but when they come to him, I would ask him to go that step further and not alone have facilities for the local yachtsmen and the Yacht Club, but also have Limerick developed as a tourist attraction. I am sure they would pay well, particularly because of the proximity of Shannon Airport. I should like, in conclusion, to pay a tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary for having done the little or nothing he has done for Limerick.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Thanks very much.

Mr. Coughlan

There is good in the worst of us and bad in the best of us. I am appalled that in these 22 pages of a meandering to which the Parliamentary Secretary has treated us—he meandered like the River Shannon— he sidestepped the city and county of Limerick. I appeal to him, when we come to him to put our views before him, to include Limerick and its development demands and needs, both city and county. It has been unseen and untouched in the past. When that has been done, we will get Deputy Corry, life-size, in bronze, and erect him at the mouth of the Shannon in memory and appreciation of all he has done to advance the attractions of our city, and we will include the Parliamentary Secretary in the obituary. I thank him for all he has not done in the city and county of Limerick.

Mr. Reynolds

Like other Deputies, I feel this debate gives the opportunity to deal with local matters of importance as well as national affairs. That was confirmed by both Deputy Carty, the Parliamentary Secretary, and Deputy Coughlan. Coming from a constituency such as Roscommon, one must make some comment on the promises that have been made by the Government to the electorate of that constituency at various elections. I refer to the drainage of the Shannon. When one reads the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, one can see little hope of early work on the Shannon catchment and the catchments of the Shannon tributaries. In his statement, he said:

The provision for G.I. Surveys shows a significant increase this year from £22,000 to £50,000. This increase, I am glad to say, is to enable the detailed survey of the Shannon catchment to be resumed. It was intended to commence the survey in 1965 but owing to the financial stringency which then arose the Shannon Survey like other desirable undertakings had to be postponed. As I have said before, it was the Government's intention that the investigation should be resumed as soon as circumstances would permit. The provision now made is an earnest of that intention and I hope to make further provision in subsequent years. This is the beginning of an enormous undertaking, one of the biggest single engineering projects ever undertaken in this country, and it will severely tax the resources of the State to see it through.

I have only to go back to the by-election in Roscommon four years ago. The then Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Malley, arrived in the town of Castlerea and addressed a meeting. He told the electorate that as soon as the by-election was over the drainage of the Shannon would commence. God knows, that was bad enough, but he went on to tell them the number of people who would be employed on that work during the following few years. That was four years ago but the people are still walking up to their necks in water. No later than last week their houses were flooded by the Suck, a tributary of the Shannon which affects them very badly. I accompanied a deputation to the Department with Deputy Lenihan, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Hugh Gibbons, Deputy Mrs. Burke and Senator McQuillan but all we got is what I have just quoted from today's speech. Therefore, I do not think it is unseemly of me to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give us a date—I know he is honest and sincere—when work is expected to commence on the drainage of the Shannon in Roscommon.

I wish also to refer to the Boyle river. It is a rather minor job, nothing like what is involved in the drainage of the Shannon and its tributaries. Being a minor catchment area, I do not think the work needed in the Boyle river would embarrass the Government financially. In the entire constituency which I represent no major work of arterial drainage has been done, though we have been hearing of arterial drainage for many a long year. It is time some little money was spent in that constituency.

I admit that a very small scheme has been started at Knockcroghery and I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff. We hope that now they are in the county they will do some more badly needed work in the near future. There is yet another badly needed job to be done. It is the Ballymore Canal, often referred to as the Woodford Canal, which is complicated because of its outlets. Under the 1937 Drainage Act that canal was excluded from arterial drainage. There has been a good deal of correspondence between the Board of Works and the Leitrim County Council in an effort to get the canal opened. The people have been thinking of boating but I suggest some drainage work could be usefully done there at the same time. There is also the Kilcoole river which connects Leitrim with Northern Ireland. If that agreement can be made at Kilcoole, it is not unreasonable to ask that a similar agreement be made for the drainage of the Woodford canal.

The procedure, in 1967, is ridiculous. There is a board appointed every three years by the people who some years ago paid rates for the maintenance of the canal. Having regard to their limited income, the board does a tremendous amount of work, but I do not think the Office of Public Works can continue to ignore this matter. The board to which I have referred can make a demand on some limited number of county councils for whatever amount of money they deem necessary for the maintenance of the rivers in that catchment area for the year in question. There is no limit on the amount of money they can collect. The county councils have no control over that matter. The Board of Works may have some limited control although I do not think they reserved any control under the 1937 Act. That is the position today. Something will have to be done about it. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to refer to this matter when he is replying to the debate.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that the cross block at Dublin Castle which was fromerly heated by coal is now being heated by turf. That is a very interesting statement to me, coming from a constituency in which coal is produced. A reasonably high-quality coal is produced at Arigna and is used in adjacent counties for heating vocational schools, hospitals and various other institutions. In connection with the installation of heating systems in counties convenient to Arigna the possibility of using Arigna coal should be examined. Even in the case of Dublin, in connection with the heating of such places as Dublin Castle, it might be no harm to consider the feasibility of using Arigna coal. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that in places within a reasonable distance of the Arigna coalfields the question of the provision of suitable equipment for burning Arigna coal should be considered in connection with the installation of heating systems.

Coming in to Leinster House, one often wonders as to the repair work that is going on. The appearance of the main entrance seems to change. One finds the main door closed or an office taken down and the next day the same office put up again. Somebody should make up his mind and let there be an end to these changes of plan and have the work completed. I have not a clue as to what is going on in the bar: I am never there. But if people are changing their minds in relation to the bar, as they seem to be in regard to the main entrance, the expense involved must be considerable.

Very often one finds that a young contractor who tenders for the building of a school is squeezed out because of the fact that he is not experienced. I appreciate the problem of the Office of Public Works. These younger contractors are inclined to think that there is a ring operating. I do not want anyone to misunderstand me. I do not mean a political ring. I mean that tenders of contractors who normally carry out contracts for the Office of Public Works are accepted even though their price may be higher than that of a younger man. The Parliamentary Secretary should interest himself in this matter.

Young contractors often experience difficulty in getting bonds but it would be no harm to give these people a living also. Their contract price may be somewhat lower for many reasons. Being younger, they may be more energetic and their staff or equipment may not be as expensive as in the case of the bigger contractor. I have in mind a case where a contractor who tendered for the building of a school was not engaged because it was considered that he lacked experience. I am quite satisfied that this man was experienced and would have been quite capable of carrying out the work. He has since carried out bigger jobs very successfully.

There are a great number of schools being reconstructed or replaced—one out of every three the Parliamentary Secretary said. A big number of schools remain to be done. Something should be done about the very bad school buildings. There are some schools which have neither water nor sanitation. It is unreasonable to ask teachers and, particularly, children to stay in such schools for the hours that they have to stay there. There are a number of such schools in my constituency and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to see to it that water and sewerage facilities are provided.

I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary and his staff in the Office of Public Works for the help they have given me. Any time I write to them or telephone them I find them very helpful.

Mr. Corry

This Estimate shows an increase of practically £1 million. It would be fair to the ordinary Deputy if there were some kind of indication as to how much of the £9 million Estimate is being spent as a kind of relief in Dublin city as against the rest of the country. I had occasion a few years ago to call attention to this particular matter. I suggest that three-fourths of this Estimate being spent here in this city in doles to keep Dublin going is a little too much. It would be far fairer if ordinary Deputies had a list showing where the money is going and the manner in which it is being spent. The taxpayers are not here to find £5 million for doles for Dublin, and the sooner the Government and those administering the Office of Public Works tumble to that, the better it will be for everybody concerned.

On the Estimate proper, I should like to congratulate the Board of Works on the classrooms, prefab and otherwise, they are providing around the country. These are well turned out and are giving satisfaction, as far as I know. I should like to see a statement on the counties which have been blessed with these classrooms rather than picking out two counties out of the Twenty-Six. I notice that in Waterford 40 out of the 90 national schools have been dealt with; 100 odd of the 300 schools in Donegal have been dealt with. I should like to know the number of schools in Cork county which have been dealt with. We could then see if there is some kind of fair distribution of the money in that particular sector.

A great part of the Parliamentary Secretary's speech deals with the amount spent on offices in Dublin. To be quite frank. I think this is both unjust and unfair. There are 26 counties in this Republic and there should be a fair distribution of the £9 million involved in this Estimate over those 26 counties. That £9 million is not meant as a dole for Dublin. We do not owe that much to Dublin.

There is just one other matter to which I wish to refer. I want to make a comparison. Under Subhead I, I notice that there is one coast protection work in the whole of the Twenty-Six Counties, that is, Rosslare Strand in Wexford. Rosslare is getting £5,000. Members of local authorities have expended money on engineers and officials in having examinations carried out and estimates made in relation to coast erosion. This carrot has been dangled for the past five or six years, but nothing has been done. There is a coast erosion problem in Youghal. I attended a few meetings there. There is £250,000 worth of house property in Youghal, and the people occupying those houses are living in terror every night of the winter, wondering whether their houses will tumble down around their ears during the night. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that the protection of those houses is far more important than spending money on Bunratty Castle. I will find out how much has been spent on the latter later by way of a Parliamentary Question.

Mr. Millar

It is a tourist attraction.

Mr. Corry

I am more concerned with the people living in the country and earning their livelihoods in it than I am with any fuddy-faddle about tourist attractions.

Mr. Millar

If it earns money——

Mr. Corry

I am more concerned with the people who live in terror of their lives than I am with the tourist attraction for the jackasses from Dublin, England or anywhere else, who come over here to see a couple of bearded gentlemen drinking bad whiskey in Bunratty Castle.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Corry

I am dealing with facts. I am concerned with the people of Youghal.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Corry should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Corry

I attended three deputations to the Parliamentary Secretary and the Ministers concerned and we were guaranteed that this work would be done last year. In Youghal, £250,000 worth of house property could be wiped out in one night by one tide. I am more concerned with the people of Youghal than I am with the jackasses who come over here from other countries to pay 33/- for a steak above in the Shelbourne Hotel as a tourist attraction.

Mr. Millar

The Deputy does not mean that.

Mr. Corry

Go and look at the menu. I will make the Deputy a present of the menu and he can examine it, as the poor devil of an Italian I spoke about last night examined it. He said: "This is the bulleen that I bought here and took over and fattened and sold for £14 a cwt in Italy and the steaks from him were brought back here and that is what I am paying for." That was his idea of the manner in which the tourists are treated by the good people of Dublin.

Mr. Andrews

The Deputy is very hard.

Mr. Corry

Facts are very stubborn. If you want more of them, you will get them, too.

Mr. Donnellan

They tried to stop the Deputy before and they failed.

Mr. Corry

I consider that the expenditure of any money that is available—apparently £9 million will be spent under this Estimate in the coming year—should be examined carefully. Money should be spent on providing safety for our people against the dangers of coast erosion. Once the thing is eroded it is finished with. There is no more hope for it. We cannot bring back the land, the hotels, the houses taken away by coast erosion. Once coast erosion captures them, they are gone forever. Money is being spent on various abbeys and friaries and on the Casino at Marino which is now an ancient monument, apparently—an ancient monument to have money spent on it.

Mr. Millar

All money well spent.

Mr. Corry

Surely, the whole lot of them mentioned here, on the recommendation of Bord Fáilte—another yoke we could very well have done without——

Mr. Briscoe

The Deputy is a very cultured gentleman.

Mr. Corry

I suggest that that money would far better be spent on at least one scheme of coast erosion in this country——

Major de Valera

Coast erosion?

Mr. Corry

——yes—that we have been promised and that some gentlemen were shouting about here from the rooftop from time to time. I had not time this afternoon to look up the speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor in office, the present Minister for Education, Deputy O'Malley, in which he told us what he intended to do about coast erosion. If I read that out here now, there would be a lot more silence from this side of the House and some red cheeks.

That is my contribution to this debate. I think that that £9 million is ill-spent. I do not think there is any justification for spending £5 million, out of £9 million, in the City of Dublin. That money is collected from the tax-payers of the Twenty-six Counties. We have too much of this. Year after year, we have got this dole of the few millions poured into this lump of a dirty city, dirty in every way, nationally and otherwise. There is no doubt about it. I always say what I think. For the past 40 years, I have said here what I think and nobody will stop me from doing so. We have that position. The money is collected from the sweat and the toil of our people and it is being spent here, and unjustly spent.

It is time we wakened up to facts. I suggest that when the Parliamentary Secretary comes to introduce the Estimate for his Office here next year he should at least give some consideration to the other counties, including the county of Cork, which have to pay this taxation through the nose for the upkeep of this city.

Mr. Donnellan

It is obvious that all Fianna Fáil Deputies do not agree on how the money to be provided under this Estimate will be spent. It is also a painful pointer to the dictatorial attitude of the Minister for Finance and his Parliamentary Secretary as regards how the money will be spent. I would not altogether agree with Deputy Corry in his remarks about Dublin city, but quite a few of the things he said are true.

This Estimate is for £9 million odd, £5 million of which will be spent on the City of Dublin in doles. It is not the duty of any Government to pay any sum of money weekly to any individual or group of individuals. It is the duty of the Government to provide ways and means for these people to earn a livelihood without having to lose their independence to the Government in office due to the fact that they pay them a weekly sum to remain unemployed. The result of the recent by-election in Limerick bears out that our people are gradually losing their independence because this Government have failed and are now more than ever failing to provide them with jobs to enable them to attain a decent standard of living for themselves and their families rather than giving them a weekly sum to remain unemployed.

Approximately three years ago, at the Roscommon by-election, the drainage of the River Shannon was promised. "If you elect a Fianna Fáil representative, the Shannon will be drained." The Fianna Fáil representative was not elected but, even if he had been, the position would be the same as it is today so far as the drainage of the Shannon is concerned. Part of the area where I live is affected by flooding due to the fact that no effort has been made to drain the Shannon.

I have approached the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in an effort to get him to settle this or that drainage problem as it affects the people of East Galway. I asked a question in this House as to when the Suck would be drained. I do not know what number the Suck is on the order of priority but if the people badly affected by the flooding of the Suck are to have any hope the figure will have to be brought forward quite a lot on the order of priority.

I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary remembers that I came with a deputation of people from Ballinamorebridge and Newbridge to see what he could do regarding the drainage of the Shivan river. We made a good case. Not alone does the Shivan river affect Newbridge and Ballinamorebridge but it affects Glenamaddy and many other little villages where there is a great need for employment. However, the answer we got when we approached the Parliamentary Secretary regarding the drainage of the River Shivan was that it was a tributary of the Suck and that the Suck would have to be drained before the Shivan could be drained and that the Shannon would have to be drained before the Suck could be drained. That has been my experience for three years and it has been the experience of others for years and years. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary remembers receiving a deputation from people in Roscommon and Leitrim affected by the Suck and the Shannon. We talked over this problem for some three hours and in the end it became a discussion on what the inter-Party Government did and on what the Fianna Fáil Government were about to do and what they were promising to do all along. I must say their promises far outlive their achievements. I remember the view expressed by Senator Jack McQuillan on that occasion. He said that the people of that area no longer had the drive or incentive to come to the Board of Works to ask them to carry out this drainage. Even if it were done then, he said, he doubted if the older people would have the determination to continue on and make the land into profitable and productive land.

The Government have a lot to answer for as far as drainage of the Shannon and west of the Shannon is concerned. Whatever drainage schemes we have west of the Shannon were, I am glad to say, not started by a Fianna Fáil Government. If the people west of the Shannon have to wait until their drainage problems are solved by this Government they will have to wait a very long time. May I remind the Parliamentary Secretary that the Suck affects approximately 20 or 30 farmers in the Ballinasloe area and takes in Caltra, Ahascragh, Ballinamore Bridge, Newbridge, Creggs, Ballygar, Glenamaddy, Glinsk, Ballymoe and many more small towns further into south of Galway. People from those areas have sent me here as their representative to ask the Government to do something about their drainage problem. I am speaking only on behalf of the people of east Galway but what about the people of Roscommon and Leitrim?

When Deputy Coughlan was speaking, the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Gibbons, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, Deputy Carty, who represents the same area as I do, seemed to be making a skit of the point he was putting forward. When a Deputy from this side of the House, or from the Labour benches, talks about something which is not acceptable to the Government, and if they cannot give him a satisfactory answer, they tend to laugh it off. This is becoming more common every day. Perhaps some of the matters with which I have been dealing may not have been very interesting for Deputies who are present. I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary has been in conversation with the Minister for Health during most of the time I have been speaking. I know that there is little hope that the Government or the Board of Works will do what I ask them to do, but if the Parliamentary Secretary listened to some of the things I said, he might learn something. He represents Kilkenny where there is no great drainage problem but the people I represent have not got the same quality land and it is a matter of life and death to them whether there is a wet year or a dry one.

The Clare-Corrib scheme was in operation some years ago and I think it was in September, 1964, that it was officially finished. There is one part of that river near Kilbannon, near the factory at Tuam, where there is flooding and I have been requested to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to do something about that flooding. When the river was being drained there was a small rock cutting near the powerhouse at Kilbannon and I asked the Parliamentary Secretary if there was any chance of having that rock removed. I met about 14 farmers from the area and they showed me the area of land that was under water. Recently these people approached me again, because after the recent heavy rains the land was a couple of feet under water. Having made representations to the Office of Public Works, I received a reply saying that to remove the rock in question would be uneconomic and that the amount of land that would be drained by its removal would not justify the cost of the scheme.

I do not know what the cost would be but if the Parliamentary Secretary or his engineers looked at this area when it is flooded they might change their minds. If the Parliamentary Secretary will meet a deputation from the area I will arrange such a deputation. Possibly what I could not achieve by writing or talking to the Board of Works might be achieved by them. Again, in reference to the River Suck there is there a joint drainage board and every year, particularly in winter, a certain amount of money is spent by the board on the upkeep of the river.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.