Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Feb 1968

Vol. 232 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Fisheries.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Sea and Inland Fisheries, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The total sum sought, £965,010 is £171,610 in excess of the previous year's figure due primarily to the provision of an increase of £133,500 in the grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and of £25,000 in the grant-in-aid to the Inland Fisheries Trust Incorporated.

The year 1966 was a year of record achievement for our fishing industry as a whole. For the first time ever, our landings of sea-fish and shellfish exceeded £2 million in value and our total exports of fish of all kinds reached a value only just short of £2½ million. The progress made in achieving these results is indicated by the fact that they represent value increases of £? million and £½ million respectively, as compared with the corresponding figures for 1965, which had itself been a record year for value of landings of sea-fish and shell-fish.

These figures show only part of the contribution that our fisheries made to the national economy in 1966. Income from angling tourism is estimated to have amounted to £3,737,000 being an increase of £137,000 over the corresponding 1965 figure and bringing to no less than £6,230,000 the total external income attributable to our fisheries in 1966.

Another indication of the progress made in 1966 is the fact that consumption of fish here at home increased by about 5 per cent.

Landings of sea-fish increased from 563,000 cwt. in 1965 to 626,000 cwt. in 1966. These figures do not include shellfish, landings of which are only partly recorded by weight since some varieties are recorded by number only. The total value of landings, including shellfish, rose by £333,000— almost 20 per cent—to the record figure of £2,033,000. The expansion was shared by all three main sectors of the sea-fishing industry—the value of the pelagic catch, herrings mainly, and of the shellfish catch having increased by £149,000 and £148,000, respectively, while the demersal catch, comprising plaice, whiting, cod, haddock, etc., showed an increase of £36,000 in value. The varieties which contributed most to the total value of landings were herrings, lobsters, plaice, whiting, cod, crawfish and haddock in that order.

The value of landings in the first eleven months of 1967 increased by £81,000 to £1,885,000 compared with the corresponding period of 1966. The quantities of demersal and pelagic fish landed in this period increased by 16 per cent and 35 per cent respectively, but the value of shellfish landings fell by 13 per cent, due mainly to reductions in the quantities of crawfish and Dublin Bay prawns landed.

Determination of Ireland's future position in relation to the European Economic Community must be expected to have repercussions on our fishing industry and our fishery policy. As the EEC has not yet adopted a common fishery policy, we cannot foresee in what respects and to what extent the Community's decisions in that sphere may alter conditions for our fishing industry and entail changes in our fishery policy. Pending the establishment of the main lines of the Community's fishery policy, it would not be appropriate for me to engage in speculation in the matter. Meanwhile, my Department is giving careful attention to developments in the EEC countries in relation to fishing.

The grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 1967-68 shows a further increase to £575,000 for administration and development work and for capital purposes. On the capital side, in addition to the normal provision for the payment of grants towards the cost of new boats and new engines, there is also provision for the establishment of ice-making plants at a number of centres in connection with the new fish handling regulations to which I will refer later and also for improvements at the boatyards operated by the Board. Advances to the Board of £215,000 have also been authorised from the Central Fund mainly to enable the Board to issue loans for the purchase of boats and gear. During 1966, 36 new fishing boats ranging in size from 26 to 56 feet built at the Board's or other Irish yards were issued on hire purchase terms. The Board also provided grant assistance in relation to the purchase abroad of two stern trawlers of approximately 110 feet in length, two vessels of the 75 foot class also built abroad and eight boats from 26 to 34 feet built at home. The purchase abroad of three second-hand boats of the 60 foot class was also facilitated by the Board by way of loan. Demand for boats continues to be buoyant and the growth of confidence in the catching side of the industry has resulted in the acquisition by progressive skippers and private companies of larger and more modern fishing craft. The development of the technical skills necessary for the efficient working of these vessels has been aided by expert fishery advisers and regular contacts with fishing operations in Northern European countries. Modernisation of the shell-fish vessels is also receiving attention and there is a growing interest in more effective gear and mechanical hauling equipment.

The Board's market development programme again recorded satisfactory progress during 1966 with a further increase of five per cent in home consumption of fish and a significant increase in exports. Considerable progress has also been made in the regional marketing of fish based on distribution direct from the ports to the surrounding hinterland. Local co-operative societies and provincial fish merchants have, in co-operation with the Board, played their part in this very desirable development. Local co-operatives have also played a vital role in increasing exports to European markets and a notable innovation in recent times has been the export of fresh fish from Donegal to Great Britain by insulated container traffic. These direct marketing operations by fishermen's co-operatives ensures that the primary producer gets a greater share of the end price.

As I indicated when introducing last year's Estimate, we are fully conscious of the need to improve personnel training schemes and to encourage a greater number of our existing fishermen and new entrants to the industry to participate in such schemes. The Committee of Education to which I then referred has since submitted its report and the primary recommendation, with which I fully agree, is that there should be a permanent school for the training of personnel for the sea-fishing industry. The expansion of our fishing fleet along modern lines cannot be achieved unless we have a regular stream of fully qualified young fishermen capable of manning these vessels and I intend, therefore, to press ahead with the provision of the necessary school facilities as quickly as possible. Pending completion of the permanent scheme, arrangements are being made to provide extended short courses for new entrants in temporary school premises at Moville, County Donegal. Having had the benefit of this course the boys will complete their training aboard selected fishing vessels where they will acquire practical fishing experience from our best skippers. The full training period will extend over 10 months during which the boys will be paid an allowance of £3 per week and will be maintained free of charge.

Meanwhile the results achieved under the existing training schemes are not unsatisfactory and I am glad to see that a new awareness appears to exist among boys leaving both secondary and vocational schools of the attractiveness of fishing as a career. Since the inception of the scheme up to 31 December, 1967, 127 boys have graduated as trained fishermen and on that date a further 39 boys were undergoing training. It is of interest to record that, following the recent press advertisement in regard to the revised scheme which is due to come into operation on 1 March, 1968, over 100 applications have been received for admission to training.

Under the scheme for training experienced fishermen as skippers, 13 fishermen attended a course at Galway vocational school in 1967 and all of them subsequently succeeded in obtaining certificates of competency from the Department of Transport and Power. This is an increase of five on the number which attended the previous year's course and is an indication of the growing realisation on the part of fishermen of the benefits to be derived from such training. Complementary to the full-time course at Galway, local port courses for existing skippers and experienced fishermen have been organised at a number of centres by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara in collaboration with vocational education committees. These classes are being very well attended and during 1967, 59 fishermen secured certificates of competency following attendance at the courses.

I would again like to express my thanks and appreciation to all who have co-operated so whole-heartedly in the operation of the schemes, particularly the Town of Galway Vocational Education Committee and the various county vocational education committees and I look forward to their continued assistance in the more comprehensive schemes in due course.

Deputies will recall my statement last year that I intended to introduce compulsory standards for the handling and distribution of fish to ensure that we market fishery products of the highest quality so that these products may compete more successfully against other primary products in the food markets of the world. Following consultation with all sectors of industry, I have now made regulations which will come into operation on 1st April, 1968, relating to fresh demersal fish and covering handling from the catching point to the end of the distribution chain. I am pleased to say that the regulations have generally been well received in the industry and I have asked fishermen, fish merchants and fish processors to operate them on a voluntary basis between now and the operative date so that any difficulties experienced can be resolved in time. When we have a little experience of the operation of the regulations, consideration will be given to their extension with necessary modifications to pelagic varieties and shellfish.

Since the addition of a second exploratory boat in June of last year, research and exploratory work has been intensified. It is now possible to devote particular attention to our shellfish resources, the produce of which finds a lucrative market abroad. New grounds are being surveyed and the efficiency of different fishing gear is being tested. Encouragement of shellfish farming operations has been given and will continue to be afforded to worthwhile ventures. The recent opening by a private firm of a hatchery for the artificial breeding of shell-fish seed should be of considerable benefit in providing seed to enable existing oyster and other shellfish beds to be restocked and new beds to be cultivated.

The scheme of joint co-operation with the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries of the United States in specific fishery projects of mutual interest is now well under way. Two Bureau specialists have been in Ireland for some months to establish and co-ordinate some aspects of the programme. Visits to the United States by a number of technical officers of my Department to study that country's methods at first hand are also part of the programme and the first of such visits has recently taken place.

Development work on the three major fishery harbours at Killybegs, Castletownbere and Dunmore East is progressing favourably and a substantial provision is included in this year's Estimate for Public Works and Buildings for the continuation of work at these three centres throughout 1967-68. The Fishery Harbour Centres Bill now before the House will, when enacted, provide the necessary powers for the compulsory acquisition of lands required for the development of harbours at Dunmore East, Castletownbere, Killybegs, Galway and Howth. It will provide also for the management, control and operation of these harbours.

Harbour improvement works in the fisheries interest were completed during the past year at Maoil-a-Goilín and Rinn na Ratha, County Kerry; at Liscannor and Seafield (Quilty), County Clare; at Aillebrack, County Galway; at Belderg, County Mayo; and at Gola Island, Stackamore and Gortnasate, County Donegal. Work on improvement schemes is also in progress at other fish landing places around the coast such as Ballydavid, County Kerry; Bank (Whiddy Island), Garnish (Dursey) and Hare Island, County Cork, and Porturlin and Portacloy, County Mayo. In addition sizeable schemes have been already approved for the improvement of landing facilities at Skerries, County Dublin; Kilmore Quay, County Wexford; and Reen, County Cork. The question of improving fish landing facilities at various other places is also being actively considered in my Department at present but I cannot at this stage indicate what the outcome may be.

Earlier this year a survey team— comprising representatives of Roinn na Gaeltachta, the Office of Public Works, the county council and my Department —which was set up by my predecessor to examine and report on the need for improved landing facilities to meet present and expected needs of the fishing industry in South Kerry, completed its assignment and I am considering the team's report at present. I have set up a similar team to make an appraisal of landing facilities on the coasts of Galway and Mayo—including the islands off those coasts. In these surveys full regard is to be given to the present trend towards larger fishing boats and their need for adequate flotation and berthage.

The Galway-Mayo coastal survey was commenced in April last and the team has its work well advanced. When this is completed, a similar survey will be conducted in County Donegal.

Before concluding my remarks on the sea fisheries side, I would like to refer briefly to the reluctance on the part of some of our fishermen to accept the arrangements which have been made to allow for reciprocity as between Twenty-six County and Six-County boats in regard to fishing in Irish waters. These arrangements do not militate in any way against the development of our fishing industry and I would appeal once more to fishermen's organisations to use their full influence in restoring harmonious relations which are so necessary, particularly in regard to our herring fishery, in attracting foreign buyers to the port auctions and thereby helping our fishermen in obtaining the keenest prices for their landings.

The overall catches for salmon in 1966 were good although not equal to the high catches of the last few years. The value, however, was well maintained. The total weight of the catch for the year by all fishing methods was 2,326,000 lb. valued at £684,825 as compared with 2,870,000 lb. in 1965 valued at £712,495 and 3,013,000 lb. in 1964 valued at £789,318. To these figures may be added those for sea-trout which are of minor importance only.

The quantity of salmon exported was 17,435 cwts. as against 19,764 cwts. in 1965. These were valued at £813,612 as compared with £759,400 for 1965. Officers of my Department continued to keep a check on the standards of Irish salmon as exported.

Conditions for angling varied according to district, time of year and incidence of salmon disease. On the whole they were reasonably good and the number of salmon rod licences issued at 12,053 compared very favourably with the record figure of 12,805 issued in 1965 and exceeds the previous best figure of 11,628 for 1964. The weight of salmon taken by rod and line was 301,575 lb. as compared with 416,290 lb. in 1965.

In speaking on last year's Estimate, I mentioned the Greenland salmon fishery and the programme of work initiated under the aegis of the International Commission for the North Atlantic Fisheries and in co-operation with the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea of which an officer of my Department was elected President in 1966. The programme aims at getting scientific data on which to frame proposals to preserve a proper balance in catches and escapements in so far as the Greenlandic salmon fisheries are concerned.

According to figures produced by the Council catches for salmon in these fisheries in 1966 were approximately 1,300 metric tons as compared with 740 in 1965. The 1965 figure was probably depressed owing to the good price obtaining for cod with a consequential drop in salmon prices and does not necessarily indicate that salmon were less abundant off the Greenland coast in 1965. Scientists from Denmark, England, Scotland and Canada were engaged during the 1966 fishing season in Greenland in tagging operations with a view to finding out whether the salmon found off Greenland return to their native rivers. Quick results from this work are not expected. A joint working group set up by ICNAF and ICES was not as yet able to come to definite conclusions on the main issues but their recommendations to Member countries should help to throw more light on the problem. One hopeful indication so far, however, is that the Greenland netting does not seem to affect our stocks of grilse but only the larger salmon which stay for some years in the sea.

It is well again to refer to the good work which the boards of conservators have done and are doing to protect and develop the fisheries in their areas. The large number of successful prosecutions for illegal fishing bears witness to the diligence with which the protection staffs of the boards carry out their duties. Apart from illegal fishing the conservators deal with other dangers to fish life such as pollution by sewage, industrial and other concerns; they also encourage the destruction of natural predators by offering grants for any killed off. On the development side as distinct from protection, the conservators promote suitable works sometimes in collaboration with angling associations by arranging for the removal of obstructions to fish movement in rivers and clearing of spawning beds for better propagation. For river improvement works of the kind indicated generous grants are available to cover most of the cost. In any case in which technical advice is sought the engineers of my Department give every assistance in the design and execution of such works.

The boards of conservators are finding that the income which they receive from the sale of licences and from fishery rates is not adequate to meet their expenditure which keeps rising from year to year, largely to meet salary and wage demands and consequently they have to rely on administration grants paid from the Fund to keep solvent. The exchequer grant to the Fund has been increased to £38,000. This sum includes provision to meet part of the cost of the reorganisation, which is contemplated, of the staffs of the boards. Also included in the Subhead is a contingent provision for outlay in regard to possible arrangements for operation of a large-scale salmon hatchery to offset the effects of fish disease. The Estimate as originally framed, envisaged my Department's being responsible for the cost of leasing and operation; these plans were changed subsequently and the present intention is that the hatchery in question will be operated at the expense of the owner of a large fishery in the district.

Payments are made from the fund in respect of river improvement works such as referred to earlier. Work on a major scheme at the Clifden Falls on the Owenglin River is completed; this is a fish pass which will ease the passage of salmon and sea trout over the falls in the Owenglin River in their journey to the spawning grounds in the upper reaches.

Investigations are being continued at the experimental station at Glenties into the application of electricity to fishery management and exploitation. These investigations include the development of electric fish counters, electrical fishing apparatus and the exploration of the effects of various kinds of electrical stimuli on different types of fish.

The research into ulcerative dermal necrosis or salmon disease continues to be done mainly at the Veterinary Research Laboratory of my Department at Abbotstown, County Dublin. Some measure of success has been achieved from the experiments carried out to date. It has been possible by means of a siphoning technique and also by the use of material passed through bacterial filters to transmit the disease to healthy salmon. It also has been proved fairly conclusively that young salmon and sea-trout and rainbow trout do not contract the disease, that rainbow trout are not susceptible to it at any stage and that viable ova can be obtained even when the parent fish is diseased. However, to date it has not been possible to isolate and identify the causative organism and further experimentation is being done in an effort to achieve this.

One aspect of the investigation concerned the effects of the disease on the cell structures of the fish's body at different stages, and for this collections of tissue are being made from healthy and diseased salmon. The Salmon Research Trust of Ireland, Inc., through one of its sponsors, Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son and Co. Ltd., has helped with the expense of the research by meeting the cost of apparatus and the secondment of a bacteriological technician to the Abbotstown laboratory.

With financial aid from the ESB a mobile laboratory is being provided for on-the-site investigations into the disease and a junior Fellow, appointed by my Department, is continuing research into the fungi at the Botany Department of University College, Dublin. A number of fungi, including that known to affect damaged freshwater fish, have already been identified. Research work on the serum proteins of healthy and diseased fish is also being prepared at University College, Cork.

Veterinarians of the Six-Counties Ministry of Agriculture are also working in close collaboration with the Abbotstown laboratory and liaison is maintained between the research workers of both staffs as well as with those in Britain and other countries. Meetings of the scientific and co-ordinating committees set up to co-ordinate research and information on the disease continue to be held. In addition, monthly press releases are issued in season which give the latest information on the incidence of the disease in affected river systems.

The corps of fish inspection officers appointed last year have ensured that all salmon and sea trout exported from this country are free from disease and, in this connection, I may mention that the utmost co-operation is given by the exporters.

My Department also arranged to supplement home produced stocks by the importation early this year of salmon ova of which a total of 905,000 was planted in rivers which had been affected by disease.

The grant-in-aid to the Inland Fisheries Trust in this Estimate stands at £120,000 which represents a 26 per cent increase over that for 1966-67.

Hear, hear.

The activities of the Trust, in developing fisheries for home and tourist anglers, deserve the highest praise and the Trust is worthy of far greater support than it receives at present from many who benefit from its work.

Hear, hear.

I take this opportunity of appealing for increased membership for the Trust. Estimated income from angling tourism has continued to show an increase and in 1966 despite the difficulties created by the shipping strike, it reached £3,737,000. The potential for further growth is enormous when one considers the large number of anglers and the restricted angling facilities in Britain and in a number of continental countries. The western areas, about which we are all rightly concerned, stand to benefit most from the activities of the Trust. More than 50 per cent of the Trust's expenditure is devoted to development in the west and this expenditure has high employment content. In addition, the spending by tourist anglers generates a welcome degree of economic activity in the western counties.

I wish to pay tribute to the members and to the local bodies and associations who have co-operated with the Trust and subscribed to its funds and I should like to exhort many more to follow this good example.

In conclusion, I am sure that Deputies will agree that the fishing industry is showing signs of progress and accordingly I recommend this Estimate to the House.

I find it both difficult and confusing to make comparisons of figures for previous years when we are dealing, in 1968, with the Estimates for 1966.

Hear, hear.

I must say it makes it extremely difficult. As the Minister has said, there is obvious evidence that progress is being made in the fishing industry. For some years past, there has been progress in the development and expansion of the industry. I think it is only fair to realise that this progress has been maintained during the past year and to some extent perhaps accelerated. This, I think, justifies our attitude over the years to the Government's treatment of the fishing industry. We held very strongly that there was no confidence in the industry. We held that it was felt that investment in it was not justified. We always considered that there was a considerable potential in the industry for increasing the consumption of fish at home, for increasing the export of fish and for increasing the employment of people.

There is one obvious omission in the Minister's statement. He made no reference whatever to employment. At a time when we have nearly 68,000 people unemployed in the country, that is most surprising and disappointing. We have no figures for the number of people employed in the industry. We have no estimate of the number of people likely to be employed in the industry if and when we develop it to its full potential. We have not got an estimate of what the Minister believes to be the number of boats of the various sizes likely to be accommodated and the amount of fish it is expected may be landed by these boats. I know that that is not an easy estimate to make but certainly the employment figures would be very interesting.

A couple of years ago, it was estimated that approximately 8,000 people were employed in the industry— 2,000 employed full-time, 4,000 employed part-time and then a couple of thousand people employed in processing. Because of the progress which has been made and because of the expansion in the processing industry, I am sure that the number of people now employed must be considerably greater than it was two years ago. We have no figures on the matter. I trust that, when he is replying to the debate, the Minister will give us the information we ask for.

The Minister says it is obvious that the industry is progressing: it is, but again, I feel that the investment we are making in the industry is not sufficient. The increase has been represented as a fairly substantial increase. I think it is not a substantial increase. When one has regard to increased costs, increased salaries and increased overheads, very little is left for development.

I was particularly interested in the figure for the Inland Fisheries Trust. I think the previous year it received £109,000. In the year we are discussing, it received £120,000. That is sufficient to meet only the increased expenditure of the Inland Fisheries Trust in wages and salaries and all the other overheads. It does not leave them anything extra, over and above, to expand the extremely useful and essential research work in relation to the development of inland fisheries of this country. Everybody agrees that there is enormous potential here. Everybody agrees that the Inland Fisheries Trust have done wonderful work during the years they have been in existence. Everybody agrees that they have done an immense amount of work on a shoestring. Even last year when the overall number of tourists dropped—it was blamed on the shipping strike, bad weather and other things—the important fact remained that the number of angling tourists increased considerably. This is an indication of the potential in this industry for the expansion of tourism.

Looking up the recent Bord Fáilte publication, I see that the total number of angling tourists was 106,000 approximately. There were 54,500 for game fishing, 28,900 for coarse fishing and 23,000 for sea-fishing. In each of these three branches, there is scope for enormous expansion. Many of the people who come here for a fishing holiday are not very particular about the type of fish, as long as they have fish. Any sort of coarse fish will attract a large number of English visitors because in England at present they have no facilities for this type of fishing. The main attraction is brown trout, which attract the largest number of visitors. But, as I said, these three branches provide enormous scope for the improvement of the tourist industry.

I have been reading the publication of the Inland Fisheries Trust and I am extremely impressed by the amount of work they have on hands and what they have accomplished during the years they have been in operation.

How many members have they?

I cannot give that figure to Deputy Molloy. I am sure he knows it.

I am glad to announce I am a member of this board.

Is Deputy Molloy a member?

A life member.

Then we are all members.

This is something I should like to recommend to many more people. There are many people who are fishing continuously, enjoying everything that goes with it, and still refusing to become members. In many cases it is carelessness more than anything else. They often succeed in increasing the membership but it slips back again because people forget to renew their membership. Nothing can be done about it except to continue to appeal to people to take the interest they should be taking. It requires only a small sum to become a member but the accumulated sum means a lot to the Trust.

When we discussed this Estimate previously, we were told there were 31 new boats and four secondhand boats at sea. We seem to be maintaining this rate of expansion in putting new boats on the sea. This year there are 36 new boats and two stern trawlers. This should increase our catering power considerably. This is recognised by all as the main requirement of the fishing industry. We cannot succeed until we have the boats on the sea manned by skilled fishermen. I am glad to note from the Minister that everything possible is being done to attract young men to the fishing industry. It should be pointed out that much of the hazard associated with fishing has been gradually removed. We have more modern and safer boats. We have better gear. The life is less hazardous and should be more acceptable. That is not to say it is in any way a soft or easy life. There are many people who just do not want an easy life. They are prepared to put up with the tough standards expected in the fishing industry, providing the reward is good. The recent tragedies across the water remind us that the hazards have not been removed, but I hope these were due to exceptional weather conditions. The forecasting service here is recognised as an excellent one of great benefit to the fishermen. I may have mentioned when speaking on the Harbour Development Bill that I had the pleasure of going for a day's fishing on a trawler from Dingle. They appreciated how reliable the weather forecasting is and what a service it is for them. They very much appreciated the equipment now available for the location of fish and for warning them of serious hazards such as rocks.

One of the things that impressed me on that ship was that these people had a long, hard day, during which they had to endure the hazards of sea and weather, but there was no great fortune for them at the end of it. The income was reasonable, provided they could go out every day and earn it. From my experience of that day's fishing, which I was assured was an average day's fishing, unless they are able to get out continuously, there is no great fortune in it. It may be that Dingle is not the best location for getting a high income from a fishing-boat. They felt they just had sufficient to carry on and to induce them to stay in the business, but nothing more. They complained bitterly of the fact that no cold-storage facilities were available to them. I know this is something that was recommended as far back as 1962 when these defects were pointed out. It means they have to get rid of the fish, even if the market is poor. If conditions for getting the fish away are not good, they still must make the effort and get rid of them.

The Minister spoke about the quality standards coming into operation on 1st April. Some time ago one of the biggest fish exporting firms in the country objected strongly to public statements made in relation to the observance of quality standards. They said these statements might imply that they, as an exporting firm, were not already observing the highest possible standards. They felt it might affect them in the export of their fishery products, mainly to Australia. I was very impressed by the standards of cleanliness I saw during my trawler trip: everything was spotless. The boat itself was completely washed before the fish were hauled in. When the gutting of the fish took place and the fish were boxed, they were washed in the boxes and the deck was again washed. The grading was good and the boxing was good. I do not think anybody could complain of the way in which the fish were handled on that boat, and I would say that if the standards everywhere else compared with what I saw there, people certainly would have nothing to complain of. The one defect I saw there was the lack of icing and cold storage facilities. If they have not yet got these facilities, that should be one of the first things we should see to in the various ports throughout the country. In warm weather, particularly in relation to exports, it is impossible to keep fish anyway right unless these facilities are available.

I was disappointed that the Minister made no mention whatever of the setting up of the fish meal factory on the east coast. This is something that has been talked about for some two or three years. About two years ago, this matter was taken up in a very business-like way by Bord Iascaigh Mhara. The necessary research was done, and all the evidence indicated that there was an ample supply of suitable fish on the east coast to maintain a factory and make it viable. All the evidence was lying there for a year or so before it was possible to get somebody to decide to undertake this venture. Personally I thought this information, this convincing information that we had the raw material, was lying there so long that I thought the State itself should nearly have stepped in and done something about it. But six months ago or so, we had an announcement about a factory being started up in Mornington.

I am informed that no start has been made in that factory in Mornington. I do not know whether or not that is right and perhaps the Minister would comment on it when replying. There were objections raised by some of the residents who are more interested in developing Mornington as a tourist area rather than as an industrial area of this kind, an industrial area that might perhaps produce some objectionable smell that might be objected to by visitors. It used not to be possible to have a fishmeal factory without having that sort of nuisance arising from it, but if it is not possible to set up at Mornington, I am told there are other sites available where people would be glad to get the factory. If the factory is not to be built in Mornington, if the objections are sufficiently serious as to deter the people there from embarking on it, every encouragement should be given to this firm to set up somewhere else on the east coast.

Questions from time to time during the year revealed that we are still importing threequarters of a million pounds worth of fishmeal. In view of the fact that the cost of this fishmeal has increased still further as a result of devaluation, it makes it all the more urgent that we should pursue with all possible speed the production of our own fishmeal. We have the potential here and the raw material, and I think it is right to say that we also have a sufficient number of people prepared to engage in this type of fishing as a worthwhile effort.

There were four or five boats in this business 12 months ago, and at that time the fish was going to Killybegs, the transport being subsidised. They found this operation sufficiently worthwhile to induce them to promise to engage about 50 boats in this type of fishing on the east coast. I do not know whether all this has since been organised and whether the Minister knows that the necessary number of people are there to engage in it. Perhaps all these arrangements are made, but I found it surprising that as important an ancillary industry to fishing as this industry is was not referred to by the Minister, first, because of the possibility of reducing imports of fishmeal; and secondly, because of the employment it would give and the effect it would have on the industry in general.

Last year I referred to the complaints I got when I was down on the Corrib, and I am sure Deputy Molloy knows something about the situation there. The Minister did not say whether or not any grant was given to the fishing organisations on the Corrib. They were looking for something in the region of £16,000 to develop their hatchery there and to provide a couple of rearing ponds. They felt that if they got it in stages, it would ease them out of the difficulties they were in, if they got even £4,000 the first year to enable them to improve the hatcheries and to put up one pond and complete the job at a later stage when more money was available. The Minister does not say if this money has since been provided or if these difficulties have been overcome. The estimate given to me at the time was that they required something like 300,000 fingerlings per year to restock the lake; this is quite an amount of fingerlings and I hope it has been possible to meet the requirements.

There are approximately 240 uneconomic holders in this area, small farmers with boats which they hire out to visitors in order to supplement their income. This is of considerable importance to them and they complained, rightly or wrongly, at the time that sufficient interest was not being taken in keeping down predators and one thing or another in the lake. They felt that much more could be done, because it was a developing tourist area and there were a number of hotels there with accommodation for quite a number of tourists.

Salmon fishing seems to be the only activity that did not show an increase in income. Salmon fishing was disappointing mainly because of the salmon disease, and it is regrettable that no great progress appears to have been made in determining the cause of the disease or in deciding whether or not anything can be done to overcome it in future. However, I think it is right to say that the incidence of the disease in the rivers is very much less and giving very much less trouble than it was this time last year and earlier.

The number of boys being brought into training is one of the most encouraging figures the Minister has given. Heretofore the number coming forward each year was in the region of 40 people, or perhaps fewer. The Minister says that as a result of the recent advertisements, 100 young people are coming forward for training. I do not know what new methods have been adopted to induce people to come in. Is it because interest in fishing generally has been aroused due to all the talk there is about fishing, and due to the propaganda in relation to the improved boats, gear and comforts, and perhaps a better income? Everything possible should be done to make the life more attractive, because it is certainly a hazardous life and may be regarded by many people as an uncomfortable way of living. Anything that can be done to reduce the risks and improve the prospects of the people engaged in this industry is extremely important. That is the only way people will be induced to play their part. The potential is quite considerable. We have only scratched the surface as yet.

During the year we got a loan from France of £5 million, I think, which looked at the time to have fairly favourable terms. I presume the terms of that borrowing were also affected by devaluation, and that they are not now as attractive as they originally were. Devaluation itself can be a considerable help to this industry because, so far as I know, approximately 50 per cent of our exports go to EEC countries. We should have a considerable advantage in those countries. In fact, we should also have an advantage in the British market because they have to import fish from EEC countries and consequently the price on the British market would also be enhanced. If devaluation hit us in relation to the loan, we should be able to recoup that due to the increased price we should get in countries that have not devalued.

The Minister did not say anything about fishery protection. I have seen in a number of reports during the year that our naval service, our corvettes, are totally inadequate to do the job. Most people think they have run through most of their useful lives and are practically useless at present, that helicopters should be used and that our corvettes should be replaced by smaller and faster vessels.

Helicopters are used.

To a very small extent.

They are used.

It may be that a helicopter is too expensive for this purpose. I do not know. I do not know what it would cost to give adequate protection to our fishing waters through a helicopter service warning the naval vessels, but it is something which should be considered very seriously. There is no point in our getting possession of increased fishing limits and not being able to protect and preserve them for ourselves. I am not qualified to say what is the best form of protection, but if it is possible and worthwhile in other countries we should look at it in that light and see what can be done here.

Recently I saw that the export figure for fishery products from Denmark was £45 million. That is an amazing figure. That is why I say I should like to hear from the Minister what our eventual estimated prospects are when the industry is developed and expanded to the extent we would all like to have it developed.

I saw some criticism of the fact— it may be right or it may be wrong— that the first two boats we bought in France had central heating but that the central heating was defective, and that the second two boats have no central heating at all. We are starting late in this business and we have the opportunity to buy nothing but the best, the safest, the most comfortable and the most up-to-date gear for loading and unloading. Apparently it is very important to have watertight bulkheads. In this way you can have a pump for loading and unloading and that is a very fast way to load and unload. I said before that for at least two years I complained that on the whole of the east coast there was not one unloader. The fishermen were looking for such an unloader which would cost in the region of £2,000. Still there is no unloader there which indicates that the investment in the fishing industry is quite inadequate.

A short time ago we had a discussion on the taking over by the State of the major fishery harbours, and provision being made for their development and expansion. I said at the time that in the state of the fishing industry I thought that was perhaps a good and a desirable move, but that is something I should not like to see the State remaining in when they have taken the necessary powers to acquire compulsorily whatever area they require adjoining the harbours for development purposes. When the job is working well an effort should be made to hand it over to a well organised co-operative society.

One of the strong recommendations in the 1962 American report was that co-operation should be developed to the fullest possible extent. They indicated what this could do for fishermen in increased prices, the location of better markets and the supply position generally. At present co-operation is not being encouraged. There is not much point in having the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society unless they are brought into every form of co-operation. They are well able to do this kind of thing. They are well able to organise fishermen and bring them together into a type of co-operative movement which would be so advisable for the industry.

The position as I know it is that they are not able to pay the people they require to do this work. A report was secured from the IAOS some considerable time ago. Recommendations were made but the report is just lying there and nothing is being done. You will never get fishermen to work together on a co-operative basis, as they should, unless you have some sort of outside body dealing with the business end of it and keeping them continuously encouraged along those lines. It would take a while to do that, but we could not start too soon.

I find it confusing dealing with figures which are two years old. My information is that in spite of the fact that we increased the catching power quite considerably and landings were up, exports were not up in 1967. I do not know whether that is true. The figure we are given is for 1966 but exports for 1967 were not up very substantially. In fact, they were only slightly up. It is hard to understand this. It may be that human consumption of fish has increased quite considerably.

Five per cent.

Five per cent in 1966, but it must indicate a further increase in 1967 because, and there is no doubt about this, landings have increased in almost every sector of the industry and the fish must have gone somewhere.

I was very pleased to see a report in some of the fishing papers in relation to a 250 ton catch of herring; the comment made was that this in some measure might be due to the fact that these particular people had a technician from the French Fisheries Research Institute on board. Is this something tied up with the French boats? Are we getting some technical assistance to ensure that we will buy more boats? If we are getting such expert technical assistance it is something worthwhile and something that should be encouraged.

With regard to the development of the major harbours, there is a general feeling that, because there is so much talk about the major harbours, the smaller harbours may be overlooked. Such an evolution would be very serious. Towards the end of his speech the Minister mentioned that a number of small ports were being developed and better facilities generally being provided. It would be a great mistake to let the development of the major harbours absorb all the available money to the detriment of the development of the smaller harbours which have so much to contribute to the fishing industry generally.

The Minister referred to Skerries as one of the ports for which approval has been given for development. That development is long overdue. I trust it will go ahead with all possible speed. I have heard it said that Killybegs is not going ahead from the point of view of development. Harbour development there is much too slow vis-á-vis the other developments which are taking place and the demands made upon the harbour. Howth is crying out for development. Apparently there are difficulties there because of rock. It is an astonishing experience to go out there and watch what the fishermen have to go through. There is no space for them to pull in and unload and the practice is to unload from one boat to the next in line, and so on. Very often the boats are four deep. That constitutes a shocking hardship. As well as that, those engaged in fishing are spending as much time unloading as they are catching fish.

The overall picture in the industry generally is encouraging. Development is taking place in the right direction. Perhaps development is not as fast as it should be. It may not be possible to get the people to man the boats and harbours and do the necessary processing when fish is landed. We have had a late start but we should be able to take advantage of the situation now by getting up-to-date, first-class facilities. Since we have come late into the field we should buy nothing but the best and we should provide nothing but the best.

In conclusion, I should like to appeal once more for more money and more encouragement for the Inland Fisheries Trust. The increase is quite inadequate. It will not enable the Trust to embark on any new research or development. It will simply be enabled to carry on at the same pace. That pace could be greatly accelerated if the necessary money were forthcoming to enable the Trust to employ the staff they need to do the vitally essential research and development work required, if our purpose is to attract more tourists and get more income from our inland fisheries.

First of all, I should like to express a certain disappointment that this Fisheries Estimate comes to be discussed at such a late hour on Thursday afternoon. I know these matters cannot always be arranged beforehand because they depend on the length of time preceding business takes. From the point of view of the fishing industry it is, however, a pity there are so few in the House.

The Deputy will compel us now to ask for a quorum.

There should be a lengthy debate on the fishing industry at least once a year. This Estimate provides the only opportunity those of us interested in fishing get in order to make our arguments in support of the industry. I know there are many Deputies—I am the only Deputy from the west here at the moment—who would have liked an opportunity of speaking on this Estimate. I am greatly inconveniencing myself in speaking at the moment but I shall not speak for very long.

I have said on earlier occasions that I believe the industry has been underfinanced all down through the years. That statement still stands. I realise the difficulties involved. One cannot just pour capital into an industry unless there is some prospect of productive schemes. The most important development in the fishing industry now is increasing training facilities and bringing our young fishermen up to a standard at which they will be fully competent to handle their boats. I have every confidence that, if the demand is there, the Government will come in behind such men and ensure that boats are available for them. As far as the Government are concerned, I know that everything possible will be done to ensure there is no unavoidable delay. But there must be progressive schemes and there must be progressive men making demands.

I know that many of the boats given out by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara were not altogether successful and many of the men who got them fell down on the repayments. There must be an assurance before boats are given out that those who get them will be competent and will be able to make the repayments as they fall due. I am happy to say that many skippers—a good number of them on the west coast have been successful and have repaid the loans well within the stipulated period, thereby qualifying for the special bonus. That is a good thing. The more training we give the men the greater will be the confidence in the industry and the better the prospect of leaders growing up in the industry. I know the Government will make the money and facilities available if the men are there. Progress is being made, even though it may be somewhat slow. I hope the pace will increase in the years ahead.

The development of a major fishery harbour was mentioned a couple of weeks ago and I asked the Minister if he would refute a statement, or a rumour, in Galway that there was a possibility this major harbour development might not take place in Galway at all. Perhaps it was an oversight but I do not think the Minister referred to it in his reply. He did not refute the statement and I should be obliged if he would refute it personally here today. I spoke to the Minister and to officials of his Department, and I am aware they are only too anxious to get this development off the ground. Whatever difficulties there have been in Galway I am confident will be overcome in the near future and we should like to be happy in the knowledge that when the difficulties at local level have been overcome, the Department will come in fully behind us and get work started on this major fishery harbour.

There are on the coastline various fishery districts, and by a strange coincidence, the three fishery districts on the coast of West Galway have been subjected to a bye-law prohibiting fishing for salmon with drift nets. That prohibition has been there since 1914. Since then, we have got our own native Government but for some strange reason, no attempt has been made to have the prohibition removed. I ask the Minister for his wholehearted support for the present attempts being made to have this prohibition taken away and to allow drift net fishing in the three districts off the coast of Galway. An application to this effect may have been lodged from the Ballinakill district and the two others will lodge theirs in the near future.

This prohibition is depriving many of the fishermen, small farmer fishermen, of added income by way of salmon fishing. At the moment they are restricted to draft nets which are a haphazard manner of trying to catch salmon. Consequently, the number using this method has dwindled during the years because there is not any great remuneration to be got from it. We know from figures published from other salmon fishery districts on the coast that a sizeable amount of money is being circulated to small salmon fishermen from sales of salmon caught with drift nets. The figure runs from £120,000 to £130,000 annually and the lowest figure has been £70,000. The figure for draft net fishing, to which our people have been confined since 1914, is only £6,000 or £7,000 per annum. That is the figure officially recorded by the Department.

We are to make an all-out effort on the Galway coast to have abolished this bye-law, which prohibits our fishermen from using drift nets for the catching of salmon as quickly as we can and we look with confidence to the present Minister for support in this move. He has intimate knowledge of fishing, particularly of drift net fishing. There are many such fishermen in his constituency and I am aware that he has spent many hours fishing with them. He knows the ins and outs of what is involved and we look with confidence, therefore, to a sympathetic Minister when he is taking a decision on whether this bye-law should be abolished.

The allocation to the Inland Fisheries Trust has been increased by 26 per cent. It is a substantial amount of money, £120,000, which will help to do a lot of good work. It may not be all the Trust would like to have to help them to do the work they are capable of doing. Certainly, they will not be able to do all that is needed to be done with that amount. I suggest to the Inland Fisheries Trust that they must themselves make an all-out effort to get every angler in the country to become a member. It is for that reason that I interrupted Deputy Clinton. Only a small percentage of the people directly benefiting from the work of the Trust are members and it is a poor reflection on the fishermen of this country, reputed to be the best sportsmen in the land, that they do not dip their hands in their pockets and come up with the small subscriptions which membership of the Trust entails. If they did, it would provide a vast sum for the development of inland fishing. However, for some strange reason, they have been reluctant to give their support to the Trust.

Perhaps it is purely through ignorance that they have withheld support. One would expect better from fishermen. I attended the annual meeting of the Trust last year and I had hoped they might appeal to all the angling clubs in the country to suggest, in turn, to their members when they were paying their annual subscriptions to their local clubs to include subscriptions to the Inland Fisheries Trust so that the secretary of each local angling club could then forward the Trust subscriptions to headquarters. In that way the local angling clubs would be helping the Trust to render very good service. This could be made a rule in each club—that when local members were paying their 5/- or 10/-each year to the local club, they would add the small subscription demanded for membership of the Trust.

It is little use crying continuously to the Government to provide money. It has become obvious that anywhere the Government see effort and enterprise, they will back it with finance; but if the anglers will not support the Inland Fisheries Trust, who have been doing such good work for their benefit, they cannot expect the Government to go head-over-heels giving them assistance. It is a two-way bite. If the Trust sell themselves to the people who should be supporting them, the Government will not be far behind in bridging the gap.

What about the angling tourists?

I am referring to ordinary members of angling clubs throughout the country. I am not suggesting we should force every tourist who comes to fish——

I am talking about the desirability of the development.

If you go into the figures of Trust membership, you will find that a large proportion of tourists who come here to fish during a few weeks each year are life members.

That is true.

The Corrib hatchery is an old chestnut. It is a long time since Deputy Clinton paid a visit to Oughterard.

It is more than 12 months.

Many of the anglers on Lough Corrib realise that the policy the Trust are following is in the interest of trout fishing on the Corrib and they are prepared to support it. They feel that the line of action by which the Trust plan to help to develop the natural spawning beds—many of them believe in the hatchery—is the best line of action to take. There is support for the Trust in that sphere of their operations. The Minister, in his wisdom, has decided that those Corrib fishermen interested in the hatchery can continue to run that hatchery. It was always done voluntarily, run by the angling clubs. The Minister has decided he will continue to issue a licence for the hatchery as long as the anglers want it. There is not any great problem there now.

I should like to see all our fishing nationalised, all the rivers and lakes of Ireland run for and owned by the people of Ireland. There are terrible difficulties involved in bringing about that situation. I should imagine that the managers would be very sympathetic to that point of view, were it not for the great difficulties involved.

Under our present Constitution we are obliged to compensate for any property acquired by the State. We cannot walk in and say we are taking over this for fisheries and not compensate the people who have the ownership of it at any particular time. If one were to compensate all of the owners of lakes and rivers in private hands at the moment it would run into millions and millions and in many cases there would be long legal battles to determine title to many of these fisheries, which would be costly.

That is not something which we can hope to see in the near future. I would encourage the Minister to look into this where possible. This is part of the work the Trust are doing, acquiring private fisheries where they are on the market, so that we hope to make some progress along the road towards eventual nationalisation of all of our fishing waters.

I should like the Minister in replying to mention the Galway City Vocational Education Committee for the work they are doing in the training of fishermen. It is also proposed to erect in Galway a research station. We have an active fishing fleet; we have progressive fishermen who are making a good living from fishing and all that we want are good facilities for landing the fish and harbouring the boats. We hope to see great progress when we get our fishery harbour off the ground. I look forward to the day when work commences on that job and I do hope that before Estimate time arrives next year Galway will have made its mark as the major fishing port in the whole of Ireland.

Any hope of getting the fisheries schools down from Greencastle?

Deputy Clinton might be a better man in handling Greencastle. We are happy with the facilities we have got. We are pleased with the facilities Roinn na Gaeltachta have given to our fishermen. Work on a major harbour improvements scheme has just been commenced at Kilronan Harbour in the Aran Islands. This will cost £92,000 and fishing is the mainstay of the people of the Aran Islands. It was a very progressive step on the part of the Government to develop this narrow strip of fishing for them. I expect that when we come to this Estimate next year the fishing industry, both sea fishing and inland fishing, will again have taken another major jump forward on the road to progress and prosperity.

I have always agreed with the sentiments of Deputy Molloy in that I should always like to see all the fisheries vested in the people. Deputy Molloy says that it would involve immense capital expenditure. There is one aspect the Minister should look into. There are in various parts of the country whole proprietories of fishing which have been substantially abandoned by the owners. I think the Marquess of Conyngham had private fisheries in County Donegal which he has substantially abandoned and which are now public fisheries. I think where a proprietor of game fishing rights abandons those rights, then the water becomes public. We could with propriety vest such abandoned fisheries in the Inland Fisheries Trust in order to maintain protection of them and suitable development. This is a matter into which the Minister might well look.

I remember when I was Minister for Fisheries, I asked the technical staff of the Department to investigate the possibility of establishing new oyster beds. That is 12 years ago. A start was made with that project in Killary Harbour. I was very much struck by the marked success that attended the Dutch in their establishment of oyster beds, not only in Holland but on the Cornish coast. It is much more difficult to establish oyster beds than people realise but since the time when I was urging the technical staff to interest themselves in the operation of oyster beds when oysters were selling at about 2/6 per dozen at the point of landing the same oysters today are making about 7/6 per dozen.

Any investigation we made 12 years ago in establishing oyster beds would have paid for itself ten times over since. I should imagine that the demand for oysters is rising both here, in Great Britain and on the Continent and the supply tends to dwindle. I know the technical difficulties are considerable but I would be glad to know from the Minister for Fisheries when he is concluding what happened to our efforts in Killary Bay and if any subsequent efforts have been made to establish new oyster beds in suitable locations on the coast.

I have great sympathy with the Minister in the problem he has on his hands with the salmon disease. I asked him on one occasion before had the possibility been examined as to whether lampreys which frequent the estuaries of the rivers were or were not vectors of the virus responsible for the disease. So far as I have been able to hear there is one phenomenon common to this disease; you do not find it in fish caught in the sea. Once they pass the estuary they turn up with the disease in the river. So far as I know there is only one factor common to the estuaries of nearly all our salmon rivers and that is the presence of lampreys. Why do we not interest ourselves to know that lampreys attach themselves to fish and remain attached until they satisfy themselves from sucking the blood of the fish proceeding up river? It has recently transpired in the course of research that whatever the cause of or factor in fish disease, it is possible for fish to communicate it to other fish in the same fresh water. Where you have a situation that no fish enter the estuary from the sea with the disease and pass from the estuary to the fresh water, the disease turns up and appears to spread. It is an interesting thought that one might reasonably look into the estuary as the source of the disease and to inquire if common inhabitants of all estuaries might not be the vectors of a hitherto unrecognised virus.

Those of us who have studied the Minister's statement carefully will have noticed that he spoke of the filters at present being used in research at Abbotstown failing to isolate any bacteria which could be held responsible for this disease. I should be glad to know from the Minister—I do not know if he has had an opportunity to inquire about this—if Abbotstown is equipped with filters sufficiently fine to isolate viruses, because if they are not, they might just as well not be pursuing research at Abbotstown into this disease, which seems almost certainly attributable to some kind of virus rather than to a bacillus.

I should be glad to know from the Minister what is the future of the available supply of lobster and crayfish off our shores. There was raging in the Department and outside it when I was there, a continual debate as to what measures were necessary to conserve the supplies of lobster available. Many took the view strongly that the taking of what are called berried lobsters was very inimical to the expansion of the lobster population. Most technical authorities took the diametrically opposite view and said that it did not really matter, but that what was vital was to prevent people taking small lobsters. We took the view that the proper thing was to enforce a law against the purchase or sale of small lobsters. I know we all shared the appreciation that as the demand in France for lobsters and crayfish rose, and the demand also in Britain, that our lobster grounds would be overfished and might actually be destroyed. I should be glad to know from the Minister what is the present position in that regard.

I want to mention something that to most people is quite provoking, that is, the problem of pollution of rivers and lakes. Unless you see what industrial pollution of a waterway really means when it gets going, it is very hard to conceive the true meaning of it. Few Deputies have ever stood upon the shores of a dead lake but anybody who has visited the city of Chicago and the shores of Lake Erie found themselves standing on the shores of a great lake in which there is no life of any kind. Every form of life has been destroyed by pollution. That is rather a grim situation. To put that to rights would probably take several generations, but there is an intermediate stage. Pretty close to Lake Erie lies Lake Michigan which is subject to a very marked degree of pollution, but in the case of Lake Michigan, the pollution has been kept above a certain minimum which is tolerable on account of the fact that the city of Chicago drew a large part of its water supply from Michigan. But even in a lake which is the source of a large part of the potable water supply of the city of Chicago, pollution has reached such an extraordinary degree that the biological balance of the lake has been upset, with the result that there has come up from the St. Lawrence seaway a variety of fish whose tolerance of pollution is far higher than that of the strains of fish that were naturally indigenous to Lake Michigan waters. These fish that have come up the St. Lawrence are strangely called alewives and heretofore they filtered into Lake Michigan in relatively small numbers, and it was on them very largely and on the fry that the indigenous fish lived. But with the disappearance of the indigenous fish, the alewives multiplied to such an extraordinary extent that they have created a very grave hygiene problem for the Cook County administration by dying in millions along the shores of Lake Michigan in certain weather conditions.

As Deputies know, the city of Chicago stretches some 20 miles along the shores of Lake Michigan and they are now faced with the fact that they have a band of dead alewives two feet high and three yards wide stretching for seven or eight miles rotting in the sun along the border of the city of Chicago. That is what pollution means. People are inclined to shrug their shoulders and say that cannot happen here. That has happened here. That is practically the state of affairs obtaining from Church Street Bridge down to the estuary of the Liffey. That stretch of river has become practically a dead river. If the present scale of pollution is to continue, all the river will become dead river from the point of view of sea trout and salmon because no fish will be able to get up from the estuary to Kingsbridge, the river is so far polluted already.

That state of pollution is a fairly remote hazard in the tourist centres in the country, Connemara, Erris, Donegal, Kerry, Clare and elsewhere but, remote as it may appear to be, now is the time to bring it under control before it develops into a very serious problem for the whole inland fishery business as well as the salmon export trade. I need hardly say that the implications of that on the tourist industry would be quite catastrophic.

The last thing I want to talk about is the whole question of trawling. I never sit here listening to people talking about trawling that I do not find it hard to maintain patience. When I was Minister for Fisheries, two Icelandic firms offered to come here and establish a trawling industry based on Ireland. They wanted no subsidies, no help, except access to a port on our shores and the right to recruit labour here. I threw them both out. That was 15 or 16 years ago and I threw them out. I urged the Government to withhold the licences they sought because I felt the type of employment offered by the type of trawler the Icelandic interests were concerned with were not the type I wanted to see our people engaged in at all. Of course, we are living now in a period 16 years later but the kind of trawling industry then projected for here was based on what were then the most modern deep sea trawlers available. Now, these are the trawlers from Hull that have capsised and sunk in the Atlantic storms in the course of the past week or ten days.

What a lot of people in this House do not realise is that if you talk of a trawling industry, you must talk in terms of fishing in the competitive waters of the North Atlantic. Now, 15 or 16 years ago, most of the trawlers plying from Hull and Grimsby and the East Anglian fishing ports, were built at that period. It is now becoming quite apparent that they are finding it more and more difficult to find men to go to sea in them. The life is unspeakably hard and the value set upon life, so far as the fishing men are concerned, is very low and they are required, in order to earn a living, to go into those waters in conditions which put the life of every man on board in imminent hazard. I do not believe in promoting industries of that kind. That may be an old-fashioned view, but I do not believe we are entitled to send men who have wives, who are the fathers of young children, into imminent danger of death in order to earn a bit of money out of fishing.

Of course, now we have moved into a new period and the only trawlers of that type plying extensively in what are described as North Atlantic waters are British trawlers. The reason is that the British trawling companies although entitled to some subsidisation from their Government, are relatively poor enterprises. They have been losing money for years and have been hanging on by the skin of their teeth and trying to fish these waters with 15-year-old boats. The modern ocean-going trawler costs the better part of £1 million. When you talk about centrally-heated trawlers which are safe for the men who man them and remain constantly at sea, you are talking about ships of very large displacements which are, in fact, floating factory ships and which catch fish on an entirely new and different principle which was, I think, pioneered by the Russians and which now has been taken up by the Norwegians and the Danes. The question is whether it is an industry which has any future interest for us.

If you are going to haul in fish for consumption in Vienna, Berlin or Paris, you have to ask yourself the question: is it sensible to catch the fish in the North Atlantic, haul it to Dublin and then proceed to ship it from Dublin to Paris, Vienna, Berlin or Copenhagen? If you are bringing fish to Copenhagen or to the Dutch ports, or to Norwegian ports, you are putting it on a train and then it is going to its destination, but if you are bringing it here for subsequent export, then you have to bear in mind that the transport costs on fish are going to make it extremely difficult to compete with continental fleets with modern equipment.

I should be glad to hear if there is any economic prospect for a trawler industry based on the modern quasifactory ship which is now being sent into those waters. These ships will provide reasonable safety and reasonable comfort for the men and will produce catches which are commensurate with the capital involved, but if they are going to fish into Irish waters, which they need not necessarily do— but if they are—the whole question of the subsequent transport costs would arise and put the whole matter in doubt. It is a matter on which the Minister should inform himself and he should tell the House for the purpose of clarifying Deputies' minds, what the real problems are in regard to this matter.

I am weary listening to Deputies clamouring about why it is that the Norwegian fishing fleets can fish so profitably for demersal fish in their own territorial waters and why we cannot. They can never take the trouble to find out. I remember getting a map put up in the hall down there in order to try to show Deputies what the position is. The rich deposits of demersal fish are to be found on the Continental Shelf. The inescapable fact of life is that the Continental Shelf comes down within six miles of the entire coast of Scandinavia and swings out to 150 miles west of the Irish coast. The reason the Spanish trawlers are fishing 100 miles south of Ireland and run into Castletownberehaven when they are warned of a coming storm, is that they are out on the Continental Shelf which is in international waters, fishing for the demersal fish which is readily available in the much richer waters off Scandinavia. The waters in which the Spaniards fish, if they are looking for demersal fish, is to the west and south of this country, in international waters, whereas the Scandinavian's fishing grounds are within their own waters which they can effectively control.

When the Minister is concluding, I should be glad if he would say a few words about the oyster beds, and also on the question of the equipment in Abbotstown, in regard to the detection of the causes of the salmon disease which continues to harrass us; also whether he is satisfied that the available supplies of lobsters and crayfish are being maintained and expanded or are capable of being exhausted, and lastly, but by no means least, what steps he hopes to be able to take, in consultation with his other interested colleagues in the Government, with regard to the question of pollution. Here it must be borne in mind that the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is always fighting a considerable battle against industrial interests, local government interests and even sometimes agricultural interests, to protect waters from pollution, that is, creamery pollution and industrial effluent. There used to be the problem of the effluent of the flax but flax has very largely disappeared now.

No, peat is not an effluent in that sense. It is not to the same extent a poison. It may make waters unfishable while active work is proceeding on the development of the bog, but I never heard it suggested that peat would poison a river, in the same sense that chemical effluents or industrial waste can turn a given stretch of water into what is technically known as dead water. There is, of course, the problem of rivers which are contiguous to developing bogs but all these are problems the Minister for Agriculture has to work out with his colleagues. He is entitled to get from this House that measure of support which entitles him to say: "I am being pressed on this question of water pollution in the House and we ought, as a Government, to be prepared to give a satisfactory answer to a reasonable case which is being pressed upon me", and meet the challenge that unless something effective is done, a valuable amenity in the country could be utterly destroyed.

Taking matters rather at random the question of oysters was raised by Deputy Dillon and the Killary Harbour project which he mentioned as having been initiated 12 years ago. I am afraid I cannot give the Deputy any worthwhile information on this but we got a very preliminary report on another estuary which we thought might be capable of being developed, and it is not at all encouraging, in that it would appear as if costs and technicalities would seem to stand in the way of an immediate effort. However, I have done this in respect of another harbour and together with what I can find out about Killary Harbour, it may well be that there may be something capable of being done, but generally the information on this sort of exploitation is not so promising, unless there is some breakthrough or information I have not yet got. However, I am interested and will follow it up, and I shall communicate with the Deputy on the Killary Harbour project.

Pollution of rivers was also mentioned by Deputy Dillon. I want to say that as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, I am very concerned about this matter. I was fully aware of these dangers also in my term in Local Government and indeed there has been an awareness over a number of years, particularly recent years, in several Departments concerned with this problem. The most recent evidence of this was the symposium held in Belfield— I think it was opened by my colleague, the Minister for Local Government— during which a useful exchange of views took place. I, on my part, will continue to follow this matter because I realise the ever-growing dangers of this particular aspect of the matter, to see whether, in conjunction with other Ministers, there are particular steps that I must take or they must take. All concerned in the various Government Departments will take whatever steps appear to be necessary to try to avoid the damaging pollution such as has occurred in other countries as they have developed, particularly industrially.

With regard to abandoned fisheries, also mentioned by Deputy Dillon, we are not fully aware of the extent of this problem. What we are doing is that through the boards of conservators, we are inquiring as to whether these circumstances obtain and the dimensions of the actual fisheries, and having got that information, which I hope will be quite soon, we will then have a look to see what we should or could or can or will do about it.

The salmon disease of UDN and the part played by lamprey is a matter to which special attention is being given in the investigations into the disease generally, together with all other parasites, and there are quite a number of them in the sea and in fresh water. However, at this point I would say that no evidence has emerged as yet to suggest that the lamprey is a carrier of a possible virus or that it is carrying any virus that is a positive organism in the spread of this disease. In so far as the equipment at Abbotstown is concerned, my information is that the filters in the laboratory there are of the requisite fineness to be useful for the purpose in question. This is what I am advised and I think we can take it that this is so.

The filters are capable of collecting viruses?

This is my information.

With regard to the undersized lobsters being taken, the answer is that the fishery officers of my Department regularly inspect the catches to try to find those people who may be taking the undersized lobsters to prevent them from doing so. "Prevent" is a better word because this is what we would like to do. Rather than catch people having taken such undersized lobsters, we would prefer, by having it known that our officers are likely to call at any time, that they just do not take them and where they catch them, that they return them to the water. That is being done systematically and will continue to be done, and if there is any evidence that anybody can present to us that would seem to indicate that we are not carrying out this sort of inspection sufficiently often or sufficiently regularly in any particular part of the country, we would step it up in such an event. However, at the moment, I am satisfied that our fishery officers are regularly making these checks and that this check is working pretty well in so far as preventing or discouraging the taking of undersized lobster is concerned.

Deputy Molloy mentioned the matter of drift-netting and the bye-laws existing for many years ago prohibiting, in three districts along the Galway coast, drift-netting for salmon. This is a matter which we are investigating at the moment and it undoubtedly is one of quite large significance in that it could undoubtedly and must have been presumed to have quite an impact on the catching of salmon at this particular part of the coast. What we will be doing here is that probably a number of public inquiries will be held as to the possibility of changing the bye-laws in the three different areas along the Galway and Connemara coast. Public inquiries will, I think, have to be instituted in order to ascertain as nearly as we can whether or not any relaxing or abandonment in whole or in part of these old bye-laws prohibiting drift-netting could be contemplated. I am fully aware of this matter and we are progressing by way of investigation which I think ultimately will culminate in an inquiry or a number of inquiries, to guide us as to what we should do.

There was also mention of the membership and the contributions of those who benefit from the activities of the Inland Fisheries Trust. I feel it is true to say that those who benefit to a large degree do not seem to recognise the work and the help that has been given to them by the activities of the Trust. As I said in my introductory remarks, I hope that many more people will participate in helping the Trust by becoming members. Deputy Clinton may have been right to a degree when he said—I do not think ignorance was the word used——

Carelessness.

——that carelessness, lack of appreciation, lack of thought, probably brings about this situation that many of those who are benefiting directly or indirectly from the work of the Trust do not seem to be appreciative of it and perhaps, as has been suggested, the Trust might do something about this by trying to inform the public or by doing a public relations job with a view to encouraging the public.

In fact, I think they have done that.

Possibly there could be a renewed effort in that way. Any assistance we can give them we will be only too glad to give.

In regard to Galway Harbour, I want to say if I omitted to refer to it at an earlier stage that was in no way to back up the rumours that have apparently been spread around Galway that we have no intention of doing anything about Galway under the major harbours Bill when it becomes an Act. It is our full intention to go ahead with the development in Galway. Anyone who has any other idea is misleading himself, for whatever reason I do not know. In regard to Deputy Molloy's request that I should make this clear, I just wanted to say that our intentions are to go ahead with Galway so soon as these problems, which are mainly of a local nature, if you like, have been ironed out, and they are in process of being ironed out at the moment. The clearing of the lines in this direction is the only thing that stands between us and getting down to doing some real development work there.

Deputy Clinton spoke on the matter of fishery protection. It is all too easy, of course, to say that fishery protection is not within my sphere, that it comes under the Department of Defence. That is fully accepted by the Deputy. I would like to say that I am fully conscious of our inadequacy, particularly in the extended territorial waters which we would hope to have protection for, and as our own fishing fleet grows protection becomes an ever more important factor for the wellbeing of our fishermen. So far as I and my Department are concerned, we are not at all unmindful of the situation. What we can do we are doing at the moment to try to meet the situation. Suffice it to say that we are fully alive to the fact that the protection must be improved if it is to be at all real in future.

The French boats were mentioned and it was suggested that the central heating had been defective in some of them and not supplied in others. The only thing I can say in this regard is that so far as we are led to believe, these boats are of the most modern type. I would be surprised if the heating has become defective in any major way or in a way that could not be remedied. I hope that this will be so.

It is only a rumour but it is going the rounds.

That may be the case in some small way or in some major way but I would be surprised, whether it is major or minor, if it is not put right and perhaps it has already been put right.

The loan arrangements were mentioned and there was reference to some expert who is said to have been on some of the trawlers that have made some of these big catches already. It is a fact that the arrangement does carry with it an undertaking that whatever technical assistance we might require in the operation of the boats would be forthcoming and would be provided by these people with whom An Bord Iascaigh Mhara have done this deal. This is a useful service in connection with the loan and purchase scheme that has been negotiated.

Loch Corrib was mentioned and the demand or request for help towards a hatchery at Oughterard. We have had this matter before us in the Department recently. The situation is that the minimum work to be done in connection with the request we have had and examined would cost about £17,000.

The original estimate was £16,000.

I suppose devaluation has put it up.

Rising costs.

£17,000 is regarded as a minimum for the work that should be done and our examination would show that having spent the £17,000, the resultant output of fry would not be of any material benefit to the large system of waters in question. We feel that this sort of money would be far better and more usefully spent, and with greater benefit to all concerned, including the waters in these areas, if it were devoted to the Inland Fisheries Trust programme. This is what we have said in reply to these requests and there, for the moment at any rate, the matter rests.

But you are not taking away their licence?

It depends on what they are licensed for.

Let them carry on what they are doing, whatever it was.

Deputy Molloy says that that is what they are doing and it seems a very sensible thing to do.

Deputy Clinton talked about the income from fishing. The only thing we can say, off the reel, is that repayments to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara are very buoyant at the moment, which is a fair barometer of profitability and the buoyancy of income so far as the fishermen are concerned.

Are there many defaulters?

No. There was a Parliamentary Question the other day asking for numbers. If I remember correctly, the total was 12 over the entire country. Probably that was for the most recent year to date. That was the total, subject to recollection.

Cold storage facilities have also been mentioned. The House will be aware that there has been quite an advance made in this direction, that An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, whether directly or through co-ops or through private operators, have been trying and will continue to try to provide such storage and to encourage its provision, and also of ice plants. We are very conscious of the need for this. This matter is proceeding very well. It is a very necessary facility and will be very useful to fishermen in the future.

It has been mentioned that the contribution from the Department and the Government to the Inland Fisheries Trust has been somewhat increased but is not enough. All I will say is that I am not talking about the 1968/69 Estimates at the moment but it will be more in that year and we will come to discuss that at a later date, but I hope not as late a date afterwards as this Estimate is.

Does the Minister want to get his Estimate?

I do, indeed. So far as employment content is concerned, the figures we have do not go outside those employed directly. Of those employed on boats, part-time or full-time, the figures are around 5,500 as of the date in question and, perhaps, in various ways, indirectly, there are another 2,000 to 3,000 employed.

Are they permanent?

The 5,000 odd would be permanent and semi-temporarily employed. Possibly I have replied to the main question that I have been asked. If there are any other matters to which I have omitted to reply—

Is the fishmeal factory held up?

There is not a stone upon a stone yet.

It takes a wee while to put stones on stones in Mornington. It should be possible to start in a couple of weeks.

Vote put and agreed to.
Vote reported and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 13th February, 1968.
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