Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 31 Oct 1968

Vol. 236 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Office of the Minister for Education.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £1,667,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1969, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áirítear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh Seirbhísí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe Oideachais agus Cultúir, agus chun Ildeontais-i-gCabhair a íoc.

Is maith liom an seans a thugann tabhairt isteach na Meastachán so dom chun cur síos a dhéanamh ar an ndul chun cinn atá déanta againn i gcúrsaí oideachais le bliain anuas. Ní ag maoímh atáim nuair a thráchtaim ar dhul chun cinn. Go fírinneach d'féadfainn a rá go raibh iarracht de réabhlóid ag baint le himeachtaí na bliana. Ní raibh aon ghné den oideachas nár thárla borradh agus fás faoi. Ceann de na rudaí a chuidigh leis sin ar bhealach amháin agus a shíolraigh uaidh ar bhealach eile sea an tslí ina bhfuil suim an phobail múscailte. Is ábhar nuaíochta beagnach gach lá den tseachtain gné éigin den oideachas. An fhaid is atá an scéal amhlaidh, is mór an spreagadh é do thuismitheoirí féachaint chuige go dtabharfaidh siad seans dá bpáisti nach bhfuair a lán acu féin. Ni amháin go raghaidh sé sin chun leasa do na páistí ach go raghaidh sé chun tairbhe don náisiún ar fad.

Tá an lá sroiste againn ina bhféadfaidh an scoláire atá sáthach meabhrach dul suas go dtí barr an dreimire. Dhá phríomh rud a thug é sin chun críche—an scéim saor-oideachais agus an scéim deontas le haghaidh ard-oideachais. Is maith liom gur thárla an seans agam-sa lámh a bheith agam i sroisint na céime seo. Anois bhéarfaidh mé mioneolas don Teach i dtaobh na seirbhísí go bhfuilim-se freagarthach astu.

The total provision in the seven Votes for which I am responsible is £49,090,000. This represents an increase of £8,103,480 in the provision for the previous financial year in the original and Supplementary Estimates. A further sum of £3,000,000 is being provided under Vote 8 (Public Works and Buildings) for the building of new national schools and the enlargement and improvement of existing schools. The extent to which we are now devoting our resources to education can be gauged from the fact that in 1957/58 the total expenditure was less than £16,000,000. I shall now proceed to the various Votes and give some facts and figures.

Vote 27—Office of the Minister for Education—includes (a) the administration costs of the Department, and (b) the provision for the services which formerly appeared in what was a separate Science and Art Vote. At £1,667,000 this year's Estimate shows an increase of £193,490 on the amount for last year.

The main portion of that increase is accounted for by:—

(i) provision for the additional staff necessitated by the extension of educational services and the normal incremental progression;

(ii) the increase in travelling costs and incidental expenses;

(iii) the provision of an additional £10,000 for educational research;

(iv) an increase of £22,500 in the amount provided for scholarships and for scientific research grants;

(v) the provision of an additional £30,350 for publications in Irish.

Deputies will note that a sum of £3,000 was included in this Vote as a grant towards the cost of holding the World Conference of Organisations of the Teaching Profession in Dublin. I refer to this in order to pay tribute particularly to the Irish National Teachers' Organisation for the major part it played in organising this Conference. The excellent manner in which the Conference was organised was not only a credit to the INTO but brought honour to the country. I know that messages of appreciation have been received from delegates from many parts of the world. Incidentally I would like to congratulate the INTO on having attained its centenary. The contribution which the national teachers have made not only to the education of our children but to every facet of Irish life deserves our highest commendation.

With the permission of the House, I propose to take, together with Vote 27, a Supplementary Estimate for a sum of £6,000 to be provided for the National Museum in a new subhead F.4, entitled "Special exhibitions (Grant-in-Aid)". The amount to be provided this year under this subhead represents the balance of the cost of the Rosc Exhibition which was held in the National Museum and in the premises of the Royal Dublin Society in 1967.

The net provision for primary education (Vote 28) in 1968/69 is £20,857,000, which is £520,500 above last year's total Estimate. The main increases fall under about half-a-dozen subheads, but before dealing with these in detail it might be well to look at some general statistics of primary education.

The number of pupils on the rolls on 30th June, 1967, was approximately 510,000 as compared with about 506,000 on the corresponding date in 1966. The number of qualified teachers also shows an increase of 71, to 14,683. On the other hand, the number of schools is reduced by a further 112 to 4,685, and this shows the results of the implementation of the policy of closing small schools. These are the broad statistics, and I will return to certain aspects of them later when discussing specific subheads of the Vote.

As I have indicated, the net provision shows an increase of about half-a-million pounds over 1967/68. In last year's Vote, however, subhead A.1 included capital provisions of nearly £500,000, principally for an extension to St. Patrick's Training College, Drumcondra, and for the State's direct share of the cost of building the new Church of Ireland Training College at Rathmines. The extension to St. Patrick's Training College has been completed and only a small capital commitment remains outstanding; likewise, the capital commitment for the new Church of Ireland College has been discharged. Accordingly, this subhead shows a decrease of £397,000. When allowance is made for this, the real increase for the other services covered by the Vote is about £900,000.

The provision made for the Preparatory College for Protestant pupils, under subhead A.3, shows a reduction of £10,340. This reduction marks the end of the preparatory colleges system. As Deputies are aware, the Catholic preparatory colleges have been closed for some years, but Coláiste Mobhí for Protestant pupils continued to operate. This college, too, will be closed at the end of the present school year. Following discussions with the appropriate authorities, it was decided that the recruitment of teachers for Protestant schools would best be carried out by establishing a junior section in the new Church of Ireland Training College in Rathmines. Students will be recruited to the junior section from the Intermediate Certificate, and they will take a two-year course for the Leaving Certificate there before proceeding to training as national teachers.

The end of another feature of our primary school system is marked by the reduction of £21,300 under subhead B for examinations. The abolition of the primary certificate examination has been generally welcomed. In its place, record cards will be kept in respect of each pupil in fifth and sixth standards; the cards will contain information about the pupil's background and special interests and aptitudes in addition to the teacher's assessment of attainment in the different subjects. The card will be forwarded to the school to which the pupil transfers, and will give a much more complete picture of the pupil and his attainments and potential than was possible heretofore. The information on the card will be of particular value when teachers are asked to advise parents on the choice of further schooling for pupils. It is my intention also to introduce in the coming school-year a progress card which will be sent to each parent of children in second class and upwards; this will keep parents continuously informed of how their children are progressing from year to year and will pinpoint for them any problems they may wish to take up with their children's teachers. It is clear that teachers will be called upon to exercise their full professional judgment in operating this new system. I am confident of their full co-operation in making the scheme a success and in assisting parents in making the best choice for their children.

Turning now to the principal increases in the Vote, subhead C. (Teachers' Salaries, etc.) and subhead D. (Superannuation) account for increases of £480,000 and £141,500, respectively. The latter increase does not call for any special comment. As for teachers' salaries, etc., the increase arises mainly from normal salary and incremental increases. The subhead does not contain any provision for changes in national teachers' salaries that may arise from decisions on the recent report of the Tribunal on Teachers' Salaries.

Part of the increase under subhead C.I is due, however, to an increase in the number of teachers. As already noted, the number of qualified teachers on 30th June, 1967—14,683—showed an increase of 71 over the corresponding date in 1966. Over the last ten years the number of teachers in our national schools has increased by well over 1,000. We continue to train more teachers—585 a year—than are needed for normal replacements, and this enables the staffing position to be steadily improved. We have still some way to go to secure the best distribution of our teaching manpower, and we are in no way satisfied with the size of classes in the larger city schools. However, we are continuously improving the position, and I am pleased to announce that in the coming school-year the figures of average enrolments for the appointment and retention of the eighth to the fifteenth assistant will be reduced. The rate of reduction will vary, but at the most favourable point the reduction will be as much as 25 units.

The next largest increase in the Vote comes under subhead C.3, Transport Services, for which the provision is increased by £112,700 to the figure of £269,000. Most of this increase arises from the implementation of the policy of amalgamating small schools into larger units; as you know, when a school is closed, free transport is provided to the central school. We are pressing ahead with this policy and the number of closings to date is 474. The merits of the policy are being realised more and more, but, unfortunately, there are still cases where the closing of a small school is opposed. Sometimes approaches are made to Deputies from every side of the House to lend support and encouragement to this opposition. Now, I do not propose to argue again here the case for the closing of small schools—for me, the case is proved beyond all doubt. But I will ask Deputies to consider the two broad alternatives. On the one hand, sentiment and tradition seek to continue the small school with its restricted curriculum and its overworked teacher—the inheritance from another age and an alien government. On the other hand, our policy, framed by us for our own children, offers better teaching, a more varied curriculum, better preparation for the new educational opportunities available in the post-primary school, the prospect of more regular attendance, supervised and free transport. Only one question need be put: which alternative holds the greater advantage for the child? I need not point the answer, but I would appeal to Deputies to refrain from encouraging the controversy that occasionally arises when we propose to close a small school; by lending their support to opposition they are confusing parents whose real need is reasoned guidance and encouragement to seize these new educational opportunities for their children.

The third main increase occurs under subhead C.6 (Grants towards the heating, cleaning and painting of national schools). The increase is £110,000 and relates entirely to grants for heating and cleaning. Broadly speaking, the increase represents a 50 per cent improvement in the provision for these services.

I may also refer here to the building and improvement of national schools, although provision therefor is not made in this Vote. I am glad to be able to report that the work of replacing and improving schools continues at a satisfactory rate. In the financial year 1967/68, 65 new schools were built and major improvements and extensions were carried out in 205 others. On 31 March last 91 new schools were in course of erection and 62 others were undergoing extension or major improvement. Expenditure on building works in the last financial year amounted to £2,820,000 approximately, and in addition grants totalling almost £49,000 were made for painting works.

We still have many unsuitable schools, but real progress has been made with their replacement by modern buildings. In 1967/68 we provided over 15,000 places in new schools and over 11,000 under major improvement or enlargement schemes, that is a total of over 26,000 places in new or improved accommodation. To meet normal replacements we would need only 6,000 places per year; accordingly, we are tackling the backlog of unsuitable schools at the rate of about 20,000 places a year.

In the last year we have also begun to tackle the problem of the unsatisfactory heating and sanitary facilities in many of our schools. Managers were empowered in a circular letter issued last September to undertake, with the minimum of formalities, the installation of heating and sanitary systems, where these were a matter of urgency, in schools likely to continue in operation for at least five years. In several cases the response has been very good. I should like to thank managers who have availed themselves of the authority delegated to them, and I hope that many more will do so in the coming year.

To return now to the Vote for Primary Education, the final large increase arises under subhead C.7, grants towards the cost of free school books for necessitous children. Provision in 1968/69 is £87,000 as compared with only £6,000 last year. The increase marks the introduction of a new scheme for this purpose. The scheme will include children from second standard to sixth, for whom the provision is £72,000, and pupils in secondary tops, for whom the provision is £15,000. The scheme was formulated after a realistic estimate of requirements based on a survey carried out through the schools. We are keeping the scheme simple; it will be administered by the principal teachers, to whom I am indebted for their co-operation, and parents will not have to submit to formal inquiries as to their means. It is estimated that about 70,000 children, or about 25 per cent of the enrolment of children in second to sixth standards will benefit, and a similar percentage of pupils in secondary tops.

I have touched upon the main changes in the Vote, but these do not reveal all that is happening in relation to national schools. A working document involving a completely revised curriculum for national schools has been submitted to and is at present being considered by the various managerial and teaching associations. The special needs of handicapped children, the physically, the mentally, the culturally handicapped, are receiving special attention, and I hope to be in a position during the coming twelve months to be able to make further improvements in the educational provisions for such children.

In the last year or two, the pace of educational innovation may seem to have passed by primary education. But let me assure the House that in this sector of education, no less than in any other, the country's new needs are not being overlooked and that in primary education also there are new and challenging prospects.

Vote 29 deals with secondary education. The net amount being provided is £14,487,000, an increase of £4,088,000 on the total provided last year in the original and Supplementary Estimates. The principal headings under which the increase occurs are supplemental grants to schools in lieu of tuition fees, building grants to secondary schools, transport services, teachers' salaries, capitation grants, science and equipment grants and capital expenditure on comprehensive schools.

Pupil numbers in secondary schools in the school-year 1967-68 showed an increase of 15,000 on the previous year's figure—about three times the previous annual rate of increase. A similar increase in enrolments has occurred this year. Returns are not yet complete but from the figures received to date I expect student numbers in secondary schools this year to be approximately 133,000 or about 14,000 more than last year. These increased numbers reflect not only a large influx of new pupils but also a reduction in the rate of drop-out of pupils throughout the span of the secondary school course.

Almost all these additional pupils are in schools participating in the free scheme and the normal minimum rate of supplemental grant under the scheme is increased to £20 per pupil in the current school-year. Last year's provision, in a total sum of £568,000, represented one-third of the grants in respect of the school-year 1967-68 but it is necessary now to provide for a full year's cost, made up of the remaining two-thirds in respect of the last school-year and one-third of the grants payable in respect of the school-year 1968-69. An increase of £1,327,000 is necessary to provide for this.

The expansion in pupil numbers is reflected in the increase of £226,000 in the provision for capitation grants as compared with last year, and the cost of free books and accessories for necessitous pupils also shows an increase (amounting to £19,000) on last year's provision.

In regard to secondary school building, recent surveys carried out by my Department indicate that with the advent of the free education scheme and free transport scheme, 60,000 new pupil places will be required in post-primary schools within the next decade. The provision of these places will involve an expenditure of the order of £23,000,000. Replacement of unsatisfactory buildings, provision of specialist facilities generally and furnishing and equipping will add very considerably to this expenditure. Current applications for secondary school building alone amount to over £20,000,000.

The projected post-primary school building programme, both in relation to rate and size of investment and the number of places and new facilities which must be provided, is unprecedented. To deal with this programme a Post-primary Building Unit has recently been established in my Department. It will have general responsibility for development and planning in school building.

This year we are providing £2,500,000 in capital grants for secondary school building, an increase of £1,000,000 on last year's allocation. The total cost of secondary school building may now be financed by the State, 70 per cent by way of direct grant and 30 per cent by way of loan repayable over 15 years.

The number of registered teachers in receipt of incremental salary in 1967-68 was 4,838 as compared with 4,461 in 1966-67. In addition there were 521 teachers in receipt of the special supplementary allowance for probationer teachers in 1967-68. The provision for these salaries and allowances is £375,000 more than last year's figure.

The amended scheme of grants introduced last year for furnishing and equipping science laboratories and special classrooms for practical subjects is expected to be more widely availed of in the school-year 1968-69, since the expansion in the teaching of such subjects and the demands of new syllabuses will necessitate the furnishing and equipping of many new special classrooms and the renewal and replacement of equipment on a substantial scale. I am providing, therefore, for an increase of £190,000 in expenditure on these grants.

Vocational education is covered in Vote 30. The net sum being sought for the vocational education service is £5,790,000, which represents an increase of £1,054,990. Apart from this £1,500,000 has been earmarked in the Local Loans Fund for vocational school building.

The main reasons for seeking this increase are firstly to enable vocational education committees to meet the additional cost arising out of the provision of free whole-time day courses of vocational education for all pupils who were eligible for enrolment in post-primary schools and who elected to enrol in vocational schools and secondly to provide for the capital costs and also some initial running costs of regional technical colleges.

As a result of the introduction of the scheme of free education the increase in numbers seeking enrolment in vocational schools in the current academic year has necessitated the provision of further additional classroom accommodation and teaching equipment and the recruitment of a large number of extra teachers. I am happy to inform the House that the operation of the scheme has been entirely successful and I should like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to the vocational education committees and all their staffs for their great efforts in this matter.

The Government have agreed to make £7,000,000 available for the building of the nine regional technical colleges and have also decided that this sum will come direct from State funds, i.e., the local rates will not have to bear any part of the cost. It is hoped that six of the colleges will be partly operational by September, 1969.

In the meantime it will be necessary to recruit certain supervisory staff (a principal and some heads of divisions at any rate) to undertake the major educational and administrative planning work which must be completed before the colleges open. In addition it will be necessary to recruit a small number of higher technological teachers who will be given further training prior to the opening of the colleges.

A word about the government of these colleges might not be out of place. I should explain that there will be a college council for each college. This council will be composed of representatives of the local authorities, of industry, of the trade unions, of the teachers' association, of the Bishop of the diocese and of my Department. The day-to-day management of each college will be conducted by a small management committee subject to the authority of the college council.

The grant-in-aid to Macra na Tuaithe has been increased from £4,800 to £8,800 to enable Macra to introduce a new regional organisational development plan, and to intensify and expand the programme for the training of leaders.

A new system of procedure for the appointment of permanent whole-time vocational teachers was operated on an experimental basis in the academic year 1967-68. The new system worked very successfully and it has been agreed to continue to operate the scheme on exactly the same lines in future.

Reformatory and industrial schools are dealt with in Vote 31. The amount sought under this Vote for the financial year 1968-69 is £234,000—an increase of £14,500 on that for the year 1967-68. This increase is due to the rise of 15s per pupil per week in the rate of maintenance grants payable to the schools, the increase being borne in equal parts by the State and the local authorities.

The weekly rates of maintenance grants payable in respect of each child are:

By the State

By the Local Authorities

Reformatory Schools

45/-

40/6 to 41/6

Industrial Schools

42/6

40/-

At the end of 1967 there were 124 boys and 28 girls in the reformatories as compared with 118 boys and 27 girls at the end of 1966. The decline in the numbers in the industrial schools continues, there being 1,006 boys and 942 girls in these schools at the end of 1967 as compared with 1,120 boys and 1,089 girls at the end of 1966.

In the large majority of the schools the children attend national schools attended also by children of the locality.

Vote 32 relates to Universities and Colleges and the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. There is a net increase of £2,220,400 in 1968/69 over the previous year in the provision for Universities and Colleges, the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies and Grants-in-Aid to Maynooth College, the College of Surgeons, the Dublin Dental Hospital, the Cork Hospitals' Board and the College of Pharmacy.

In the case of the recurrent grant to the three Colleges of the National University and Trinity College the total increase over 1967/68 is £695,000. This increase is related to the necessary expansion in staff to cater for the growth in student numbers attending the Colleges. In 1967/68 the total number of full-time students was approximately 15,900, an increase of 321 over the previous year.

On the capital side £1,600,000 is being provided for University College, Dublin in connection with the erection of new buildings for Arts and Administration, and a Library and Refectory. It is intended that all these buildings will be completed in time for the opening of the College session commencing in October, 1969. The Arts block which will provide accommodation for 5,000—6,000 students is estimated to cost £2,300,000. The estimated costs of the Library and Refectory are £500,000 and £450,000, respectively.

Work on the erection at University College, Cork, of a new building for physics, chemistry, mathematical science and a science library is proceeding according to schedule. The total estimated cost of the project is over £1,600,000 and it is hoped to complete the main building by September, 1969.

The authorities of University College, Galway, have been authorised to proceed with the preparation of a design and sketch plans for the provision of a new science block at University College, Galway at a cost of £1,750,000.

The grant to Maynooth College is being increased by £20,000, that to the Dublin Dental Hospital by £21,300, the College of Pharmacy grant by £5,000 and the grant to the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies by £22,440.

In accordance with the Government's previously declared intention to establish a permanent authority to deal with the financial and organisational problems of higher education, such an authority was set up, on an ad hoc basis, in August last. This body, which is styled the Higher Education Authority will be given statutory status in due course. I feel that it might be well to repeat the terms of reference of this authority for the information of the House:—

(a) examine the existing provision for higher education with a view to making recommendations to the Minister for Education on the necessity for the existing provision and on the elimination of unnecessary duplication;

(b) examine budgets prepared by higher education institutions and plans for development and advise the Minister thereon;

(c) advise the Minister as to the allocation between the institutions concerned of the funds made available by the Government for higher education purposes;

(d) arrange for the placement of students;

(e) maintain a continual review of the country's needs in higher education;

(f) advise on higher education matters referred to it by the Minister or other appropriate bodies;

(g) conduct inquiries and initiate and publish studies on problems of higher education;

(h) arrange for as much uniformity as possible in the system of grading of university staff in the country, the system of appointment to academic university posts, the procedure for the fixing of conditions of service and tenure of such posts and of superannuation benefits for academic and administrative staff, the implementation of a system of mobility of staff members between the universities and between universities and other institutions of higher education and research, and the correlation of salary scales for university staffs;

(i) make regulations governing the form in which each institution will present its annual budgets and accounts to the Authority;

(j) endeavour generally to further the development of higher education and to promote a knowledge of its value to the country.

The Authority has as its interim assignment, the task of advising me on the nature and form of the legislation which will be required in order to implement the Government's decisions on higher education as contained in the announcement of the 6th July last.

It was a matter of satisfaction to me that no person who was invited to serve on this Authority declined the invitation. The public spirit shown by this group of persons, every one of whom is eminent in his or her own sphere, is very much to be admired.

The National Gallery is included in Vote 33. The amount being provided, £42,900, shows an increase of £11,600 in the sum for 1967/68. The bulk of this additional expenditure is related to the improvement in the staffing of the Gallery. The Members of the House are no doubt aware that a major extension to the Gallery was opened recently. This extension cost about £420,000. When it came to providing the money the Government resisted any temptation there may have been to take it from the funds amassed under the Shaw bequest. All the money in this fund will be spent in enhancing the collections in the Gallery. We have now in Dublin one of the major European Galleries. It is there for the benefit of all our people and I hope that the general public will co-operate to the fullest degree with the Director in his efforts to popularise the Gallery.

Having dealt with the various Votes I should like to speak of some general educational developments.

First I might refer briefly to the working of the scheme for free education. This scheme has been in operation for a year and in that time has been most successful. An additional 18,000 pupils were enrolled in post-primary schools compared with the previous 5,000 per annum. Sufficient teachers and accommodation were made available to meet this abnormal demand. No child was turned away from a post-primary school because of lack of accommodation or shortage of teachers. Within a period of nine months 56,500 pupils, that is all pupils eligible, were being transported free to a post-primary school. Some 30 per cent of post-primary pupils are in receipt of assistance towards the purchase of school books and accessories. The scheme for free post-primary education has removed the two main causes of low participation—social group and geographical location. No longer can it be said that any child is denied access to post-primary education because his parents could not afford it or because he lived too far from the nearest school.

I propose to press ahead with the policy of building larger post-primary school units capable of providing facilities and courses which will cater for the interests and aptitudes of all the pupils. The provision of a comprehensive curriculum embracing a wide range of options and the more sophisticated nature of the new courses generally but particularly at Leaving Certificate level necessarily involve larger school units if adequate facilities and staff are to be provided on any reasonably rational basis. A proliferation of small schools relatively close to one another was understandable in the past when pupil mobility was virtually impossible due to transport difficulties and costs. With developments in modern transport and the introduction of the free transport scheme, these considerations no longer prevent us from providing real equality of educational opportunity for all pupils.

This must entail the closure of small schools with inadequate facilities and the cancentration of pupils in larger centres. I can readily understand the reluctance of any small community to lose its school, however inadequate it may be, but equally I am convinced that the most important consideration is the welfare of the child and the providing for him of the same opportunity as the children have in larger centres. All educational authorities are agreed that the day of the small school is over and any person who seeks to prolong it is doing an educational disservice to the community and in particular to the children of the community.

I want to see as much co-operation as possible between post-primary schools. In order to provide an education structured to the needs of individual students, co-operation between all schools will be essential so that the combined resources—teaching and physical facilities—may be made available for all the pupils of an area. This sharing of facilities and closer links between schools is in our present situation the most practical way of approaching comprehensive education in most parts of the country.

In addition to the three comprehensive schools already established in Cootehill, Carraroe and Shannon, a fourth comprehensive school was opened in Glenties, County Donegal, last month. Plans are in hands for the erection of a new comprehensive school with accommodation for about 500 Protestant pupils at Raphoe, County Donegal. It is also proposed to erect comprehensive schools at Ballymun, Dublin, with accommodation for approximately 750 boys and 750 girls in the junior cycle and 500 boys and girls in the senior cycle. It is expected that these schools will be available for the reception of students in September, 1969.

Before proceeding further I would like to tell the House of certain changes in the educational structure at post-primary level. First, at Intermediate Certificate level it is proposed to introduce oral assessment as part of the examination in the language subjects and practical tests in the science subjects. At the Leaving Certificate level we—and by we I mean my Department in conjunction with the school associations—are revising the courses in all the subjects of the curriculum. This total revision is a consequence of the revision already carried out on the Intermediate Certificate courses. Moreover, I am introducing on a voluntary basis from 1969 subject groupings at the Leaving Certificate stage. The purpose of the grouping is to introduce a limited degree of concentration into the student's course. There are five groups—the language group, the science group, the applied science group, the business studies group and the social studies group. From 1969 each student will take as part of his course at least three subjects from one particular group. This means that he will devote about 12 hours a week out of a total of 28 hours to related subjects.

In addition to the two-year course for the Leaving Certificate I propose to introduce from 1971 an additional course covering one extra year and leading to the Advanced Certificate. I see this course as a specialised course in which the student will concentrate on not more than four subjects so that he will be enabled to study these subjects in some depth. I do not propose to have any regulation bar to entry to the third-year course. The course will be demanding and I am leaving it to good sense and school counselling to decide as to the students who will proceed to this course.

Finally, at both Intermediate Certificate and Leaving Certificate Examinations I have, with the approval of the Government, discontinued the classification Honours, Pass, Failure with effect from 1969 and have replaced these classifications by a graded results system. Each grade will represent a percentage range as follows:

Grade A

85-100%

Grade B

70-84%

Grade C

55-69%

Grade D

40-54%

Grade E

25-39%

Grade F

10-24%

The new grading system has two significant features: it will focus attention on the high-scoring candidate and it will give credit, rather than brand as failure, to the less bright candidate who performs to the limit of his ability.

The Department's psychological service has established the nucleus of a guidance service in the comprehensive schools and in secondary schools which offer comprehensive facilities. The service is being extended by the recruitment of additional educational psychologists, and will be available for all post-primary schools eventually. The junior cycle of the post-primary school, that is up to the Intermediate Certificate examination, will be a period of observation of the pupils' progress, achievement and aptitudes. This is the period during which pupils will be prepared for the educational and vocational choices they will have to make at about the age of 15 years. The picture which I should like to see evolving is one of a wide degree of choice and educational exposure up to Intermediate Certificate level with a trained corps of guidance teachers operating under the aegis of my Department and providing advice and assistance to parents and pupils.

The comprehensive programme of education to which I have already referred is designed to give this wide choice of subjects to the pupils. I have now arranged for the giving of instruction to selected teachers from post-primary schools in pupil guidance. This will be done by way of a series of summer courses and subsequent on-the-job training. The first summer course for about 30 teachers took place this year. In the coming year it is hoped to train over 60 teachers annually. The guidance service will be organised as a two-tier service, the first tier, in the school, being provided by the member of the school staff selected by the school for the purpose and the second tier by a member of the Department's psychological service who will feed into the teachers on the school staff.

A full-time audio-visual aids officer has recently been appointed in the Department and an audio-visual aids unit is in process of being built up. In addition to providing the Department with expert advice on audio-visual aids this officer is available to advise school managers, teachers and local education authorities on all aspects of teaching aids. A sum of £10,000 has been provided in the Estimates this year for the introduction on an experimental basis of audio-visual aids in a number of selected schools.

The sum of £20,000 allocated for educational research in the current financial year is double the amount allocated last year. These funds are made available to university departments or other interested bodies to aid specific research projects. A committee has been set up to assess applications for grants, review progress of grant-aided research projects and consider means for the dissemination of results obtained.

For the first time a sum of £7,500 has been set aside in the Estimates for the provision of technical assistance. This scheme provides for payment of the cost of projects involving visits abroad by officers of my Department or by persons nominated by managerial bodies and teachers' organisations for the purpose of attending non-Government type conferences and studying or investigating any particular facet of education in other countries. It also provides for the bringing in of experts from abroad to advise on particular educational problems. Copies of reports furnished by participants in the scheme will be circulated within my Department and, as appropriate, to interested bodies outside the public service.

The Advisory Council established in 1966 to survey the position in regard to post-primary school accommodation requirements in the Greater Dublin Area has done considerable additional work on this problem. Of the 30,000 additional post-primary places it is estimated will be needed in that area by 1975, sanction has been given for 20 new schools and for 34 major extensions to existing schools which will provide for almost 18,000 additional places and the Council is at present examining proposals for the provision of a further 5,000 places. I would like at this stage to express my very deep appreciation of the magnificent work which is being done by the members of the Council who have so freely and generously given of their time in the examination of this problem.

Education is an extremely delicate process in which are involved pupils, teachers, administrators and parents and, while the Minister has a good deal in his speech on which we must make commendatory remarks, I still say it is a remarkable speech not so much for what it contains but for what it omits. It is true that we have had trends in certain directions many of them admirable and some of them well executed but many others are still subject to considerable teething troubles.

In primary education the Minister has given us an account of the schools that have been built and that are about to be built. He deals with the closing of small schools, with record cards, with what he calls a varied curriculum in a bigger school and free school books. All of these are exemplary things with which we should be concerned. But if the success is as great as we think it is, or as the Minister says it is, why do we have at present unrest of such a magnitude that it has attracted the attention of the INTO who are organising strikes in selected places directed towards the provision of better buildings, proper heating and cleaning and sanitary facilities for children?

I have had some experience of the closing of small schools and the bringing of pupils, not to larger schools but to existing schools where they made classes bigger and where sanitary, heating and cleaning facilities were in a deplorable state. This, to my mind, is putting the cart before the horse. I do not subscribe to the Minister's view that there is not a good deal of value in the sentiment associated with one-teacher or two-teacher schools and a good deal of value in the retention of some of them. I believe that no school should be closed without prior consultation with the parents of the pupils attending the school as well as with the managers.

Here, I think, is where the Department of Education falls down rather badly in the realm of communication. Much of the local agitation could possibly be avoided if communication were somewhat better and the people were prepared in a more reasoned manner for changes which might be desirable. Changes of this kind are not desirable on a simple geographical basis. The closing or keeping open of each school is a subject that must be considered on its merits in full consultation with all concerned. I have seen the pupils brought from the national school to which I went. That school was closed in a most perfunctory and peremptory manner with no communication except certain communications with the manager, a visit by the inspector to the parents, largely the mothers. In any case they went on strike and, as a result of my intervention, they decided to take part in the transport scheme to the other school. I gave that advice reluctantly because the school to which they were being sent was not ready to receive them. Only last week, in the course of my visit to the second school, on the referendum day, the whole place was in a mess. Only then, a year after the closing of the small school and the transfer of the pupils, were the toilets and general heating and cleaning being looked after. This is not the way to do things. Pupils should not be transferred from one school to another, if the closing is meritorious, until the receiving school is in a fit state to house them and to provide adequate heating, cleaning and sanitary facilities.

There are strikes to which I have referred, strikes of teachers in selected areas, by the INTO. These bring to the attention of the Department the state of the schools in question. Certain ad hoc measures are taken to provide some sort of facilities and people, I suppose, are reasonably satisfied with ad hoc measures like that until comprehensive and adequate measures are taken.

I am not certain that the closing of schools on a blanket basis based on geography, based on convenient transport, is essentially a good thing. Each case must be considered on its merits. In England, where pupils have been brought into large centres, they grade them into classes, not vis-à-vis their ability but vis-à-vis the areas from which they come. In other words, it is now appreciated that environment plays a very substantial and a very real part in the education of a child, particularly at that age level.

There is another matter that must be taken note of. I did not think of it myself. I read it in a letter by somebody to the paper the other day. It is a question which arises out of our new system of time, the lateness of the time when we have sunrise. I can see pupils, not so much primary school pupils, but certainly secondary school pupils, who have to start as early as 7 a.m. in order to avail of the transport, being on the road in the dark in the morning and they will be there for an hour or one and a half hours, either standing on the road or travelling on buses through what is virtually the night. It is difficult enough for people who have to go to work in the dark in the morning, people whose hours are related to shifts, but I do not think it is a good thing that pupils, particularly young pupils, should be out at that time of the morning while it is still dark and possibly raining, in an atmosphere not conducive to learning or, indeed, to health. In relation to health, something must be done about the provision of shelters at the appointed spots because if children continue day after day to get wet while waiting at a certain point and go to school in wet clothes which dry on them we may well have a serious health problem on our hands. I am not denigrating the transport system outright. I am merely making these suggestions as possibly being helpful towards improving the transport system and making it a healthy operation.

I agree with the abolition of the primary certificate. I agree with the introduction of the record card. In fact, in all aspects of education I am afraid I hold a rather unorthodox view about examinations. I do not regard examinations as the be all and end all of either a cultural or academic test. Naturally, there must be something but I would rather judge a boy or girl or a man or woman, depending on the stage of their education, by putting them into a room and giving them all the textbooks—the whole lot—and asking them to read these for a few hours, without supervision, and giving them questions. I would judge them by the manner in which they were able to assimilate, paraphrase and adapt to their own point of view rather than have an enormous memory test extending over a period of days, maybe weeks, in examinations. However, we have not reached that stage yet although I do not think the time is too far away when unorthodox ideas may be put into operation. Until then we must be content with the system the Minister is working out.

I am dealing with examinations now. The new leaving certificate based on percentages may or may not be a good thing but I do not know what kind of job, say, a boy or girl would get on presenting a certificate carrying ten per cent. I think ten to 24 per cent is the lowest—Grade F. I think it is probably too low.

They might be good in one particular subject. This is the thinking behind it.

That is something that might be worked out in greater detail. It should not result in grading as low as 24.

It shows that they did, at least, complete the course.

If they shone in one subject it would be shown.

They would not bring home even bronze medals on a grading of 24. It is a point of view that might be worth consideration. I do not know that this advocacy of a varied curriculum in a larger school will really mean what it says. It does not matter how good a teacher is or how bright a pupil is, there is an average pattern in a school and, by and large, the end result would depend upon the teacher's capacity to impart and the pupil's capacity for intake. Time is another factor. You may have as varied a curriculum as you like but time will prevent both teacher and pupil, unless you have many more teachers than you have now.

There is a thing that I do not understand about the present primary school courses. They do not seem to include all of the things that our fathers learned in the primary school. Rural science was a great thing—nature study—and they did all kinds of Latin and Greek roots. The education that was to be obtained by a good sixth standard pupil of our fathers' times was certainly a very high standard indeed.

We will have that broad curriculum starting next year.

I would be delighted to hear that and I should like to see it working well because here, again, is where I am doubtful about the closing, certainly of two-teacher schools, because it was in these two-teacher schools, and sometimes in one-teacher schools, that they achieved in the past a very wide piece of learning, very varied, and, certainly, very observant. I remember, in a television discussion with the Minister's predecessor, talking about the value of the pupil being able to take in the natural environment of where he lived in his journeys to and from school. Most people laughed at the time but people I talk to about it now ask me about my famous frog story and the more they talk about it the more they see the value in this particular use of environment. Many of the people who have spoken to me since in connection with that discussion told me how they have watched and have seen frogs come out on the roads after heavy rain.

Making a lot of noise.

Croaking. I shall not go into an analogy on that. It is important that nature study should be cultivated and that the children, if they must go to larger schools, would have the benefit of larger grounds and possibly a little plot here and there to assist them to learn how to plan and to study fruit, vegetable and flower cultivation.

We have a course in environmental studies.

If that is so I am very happy to hear of it. Free school books are presenting a bit of a problem. Some people hold the view that books should be free altogether and should be given to the pupils irrespective of means. One has only to go into any of the bookshops in this or any other town in search of the books specified in the Department's regulations to realise the cost of those books. I have been around the better known bookshops in this city in search of some of these books and I have come across people searching for secondhand ones and expressing the view that it was a very costly performance.

It would be a good thing if there was more continuity in the textbooks and less change from year to year and less change, too, from author to author. I do not know why some schools prefer one author while others prefer another. Sometimes one of the books can be got in one shop but the other must be sought somewhere else. There is something wrong about this. If there was this continuity of author and text, whether it be in Irish or English books, it would be possible to pass books on from year to year.

Admittedly, of course, someone will come along and write a much better textbook but that is all right when it comes. I believe continuity is necessary especially in a family where the books can be handed down to members who usually attend the same schools. I am not satisfied that there is this necessity for multiplicity of textbooks on the same subject and such a wide variety of choice in different schools.

As the years go on—I do not believe everything can be done in one year— grants should be made towards the building up of libraries in secondary schools from which books could be given to the pupils to be carefully kept and passed on again. This would be of considerable assistance both to the schools and to the pupil. It would be more or less the system as that in very high fee-paying schools where books are not extras. Things would need to be brought into uniformity in this regard.

What I have said in relation to standard time and early morning rising and moving in the dark to an appointed place applies with greater force to secondary education. Transport has its teething problems and even the closing of the smaller secondary schools has caused trouble. In my constituency we had a closure in the last few months which caused considerable trouble and disappointment, possibly due to a lack of communication in the beginning. Certainly, the parents in that area take an extremely poor view of what happened to their school which they say they built up themselves. I now find in this morning's post that something is to be done to another school, Ballycastle, which is also in my constituency. I am not clear on the facts yet but I know that the Mercy nuns who used to be in the old coastguard station bought a very big house at considerable expense and moved into the town of Ballycastle where they are running a co-educational school and have extremely good results. As I have said, I am not certain yet of what is happening there but I have been asked to meet a protest committee and that means that something is happening.

I do not want a repetition of the Newport crisis in this area. I should be obliged if I could get some sort of memoranda or advice from the Department of Education on this matter during the next few days so that I may be of assistance both to the administrative processes and to the children and teachers in the area.

We will certainly do that.

I am obliged to the Minister. The Minister is remarkably silent in his speech on salaries of secondary teachers and, indeed, on salaries of all teachers. We hear of protest meetings every day.

The matter is under ballot at the moment. It is sub judice.

The Minister knows as well as I do what the outcome of that ballot will be.

Wait for a few days and you will see.

That term is sometimes not as useful as one might think. I think it will be rejected because it purported from the beginning to take no regard at all of the secondary teachers having rejected the findings of the Ryan Tribunal of May of this year. Recommendations have been proceeded with on the basis that that rejection never took place; it was, in fact, ignored. I wish to make some observations on what has been offered, something like seven per cent.

That is not true.

Veterinary inspectors, for instance, have got 32 per cent since 1964, bank officials, 33 per cent, agricultural instructors, 40 per cent, those working with the local authorities, 33 per cent but there is a mere seven per cent for the secondary teachers.

That is not accurate. There have been many developments since. I should like the Deputy to refrain from discussing this too much because it is under ballot and we hope it will come to a successful conclusion.

I will not have a chance of saying something again in support of the secondary teachers in this matter. If I let this opportunity go and let them ballot they will say to me at the end of it all: "The Minister cajoled you into silence".

It would be one of the great miracles of our time.

It would, indeed, and Deputy Burke as a Mayo man will appreciate that not being vocal is not one of our characteristics. Of course, Deputy Burke achieves more with a silent handshake.

As long as it is not a golden one.

I will not be led. I have here certain statistics connected with the proposal of the Minister relating to existing teachers and new teachers who will be coming in in 1969, who are doing the higher diploma in June, 1969. I see here that on the existing maximum salary the 11th round is approximately seven per cent. I am only going to state one example here because I want to know what it all means. A woman or a single man with a pass degree and an honours diploma would, on the existing maximum salary plus the 11th round of approximately seven per cent, reach £1,737, whereas the diploma student finishing in June, 1969, would get a new maximum salary of £1,550. That does not seem to me to be correct. Not alone is it a lower maximum salary, but it is not taking into account in any way the inevitable depreciation in the value of money.

The Deputy is reading from the report, but subsequent to the publication of that report I have had discussions as a result of which all these figures have been varied and adjusted. This is merely a tribunal report which is not binding on the Government at all.

Does the Minister tell me that the secondary teachers are now balloting on new proposals?

Teachers are balloting on proposals in that report which have been adjusted.

I think the secondary teachers, particularly, are being forced into an acceptance of this in a variety of ways, but they will not accept, of course. I think I am reasonably au fait with what the secondary teachers want when I say they would appear generally to be in favour of accepting the principle of a common basic salary and that they agree also with the principle of the full payment of their salary by the State. There is a fear that their association, that is the Association of Secondary Teachers, would be merged with the larger one of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation or the Vocational Teachers' Association. The Association of Secondary Teachers is a relatively small body and if they become involved or merged in the larger body they may lose their identity and, of course, what appeals to the larger body can be forced upon them by a simple majority vote.

They would be in a stronger position from their point of view within the big body.

I do not know. They do not think so. They have been making a contribution to their pension funds; the INTO have not. I want to say straight away I do not want to become involved in a dispute between the primary teachers, the secondary teachers and the vocational teachers. Probably it would be a very good thing, all other things being equal, if for instance, we reached the stage where the primary teachers' training was linked with university training and they emerged with a degree.

We hope to have that started in October.

It is about time. I advocated that in my maiden speech here in 1955.

The Deputy will be glad to hear it is being done.

It has taken too long. It is because the wrong people have been in power all that time. If this were to happen in the vocational scheme of things, parity would be achieved; if there were some sort of university link or a technological college link of some kind——

A basic degree in education.

Yes, I would be all for that, but I want to see it done with equity and justice to everybody, leaving no trace of rancour, not leaving any one of the three groups dissatisfied or leaving one group in a position to gloat over another, or even one group feeling, probably wrongly, that another group were gloating over them when, in fact, they were not at all. These things must be implemented with a great sense of justice and fair-play and handled in a manner appropriate to such a delicate situation.

There is a suggestion, too, that there would be shorter holidays and that a very necessary perquisite in relation to their present low salaries, that is, the fees they get for correcting and examining papers and supervising examinations would be taken away from them.

There is no question of that at all.

If this happens, if, for instance, the State pays all the salary, who will be their employers? Will they be employed by the schools?

Will they be employed by the schools and retain their freedom of activity or will they become civil servants?

No. They will retain their employment position with the schools. We will pay the full salary.

And in the interviewing of potential members of the staff, the headmaster of the school or whatever committee he has will have the last word?

Yes, as it is with the national schools at the moment.

I know, but there is the question of sanction. Will an appointment made by the headmaster of a Christian Brothers' school or the headmaster of a lay or secular school be subject to the sanction of the Minister and the Department? It is not at the moment.

No. There will be no change in that. The position will be retained.

The Minister is giving that undertaking that they will have the same freedom of movement and the same kind of identity all the time?

Yes. We are trying to encourage greater outlets for lay people.

In 1964 the Catholic Headmasters' Association and the Association of Secondary Teachers reached an agreement and I think the then basic £200 was increased to a basic £300 and then was being incrementally increased to £400. I understand now the Department are saying: "The secondary teachers basic is £200. We are ignoring the Catholic headmasters' arrangement with your association." They are not saying that but simply doing it while the Revenue Commissioners take full stock of the £300 and charge income tax on it.

That will not arise any more once we get the full payment by the State of the total salary.

But which basic is going to be accepted—the one adopted in 1964 of £300 with increments going up to £400, or the old £200?

Again, that is all changed by reason of the adjustments we have made to the tribunal report.

The Ryan tribunal?

But that was rejected by the teachers.

Since then I have met the three teaching bodies and I have had long discussions with them. There have been adjustments made to the Ryan tribunal report to meet their points of view. These were agreed to by the Government and were offered to the teachers and their members are now balloting on them.

It is to be hoped that they include that. If the common scale which is suggested is not accepted by them my instructions are that they are not to receive posts of responsibility.

They are not to what?

To receive posts of responsibility. Indeed, I do not know what posts of responsibility are because they are not defined.

Again it is in ease of the people about whom the Deputy is talking, the secondary teachers and post-primary teachers generally.

How many posts of responsibility are available to these people?

A substantial number. I am informed that the number is 2,600. These are principalships and assistant principalships. In addition, we are providing bonuses on a points system relating to the size of the class and of the school. It is all in the report.

Yes. Now, in regard to these regional technical colleges of which there are to be nine, we are getting two in Donegal and there is one in Carraroe, is that right?

No. The Deputy is confusing these with the comprehensive schools. The regional technical colleges are a different concept. There will be one in Donegal—in Letterkenny—one in Galway, Athlone, Sligo, Dundalk, Carlow, Waterford, Limerick and Cork. These are distinct from the comprehensive schools.

Why jump from Sligo to Galway? There is a big area in between. What about Mayo?

Mayo will be part of the Sligo-Galway catchment area.

The college councils as suggested by the Minister will be rather big and unwieldy unless they include a small standing committee which can be brought together quickly.

That is what I suggest, that we will have a small management committee to deal with day-to-day administration.

Surely that would be best left to the headmaster and such assistants as he could have instead of a committee?

These regional technological colleges will have a very widespread area to cater for and it is important that all educational and industrial interests, as well as trade union interests, should be represented on the council in that area.

I see that provision is made for teachers and parents to meet together to ask questions. In a college of that size would this not require a wholetime officer——

It probably will.

——in order that teachers should not be brought out from their classes? That is something the Minister should look into.

There should be some kind of liaison officer, call him a parents' liaison officer or what you like, instead of having teachers brought out from their classes.

We are placing great importance on these regional colleges because we do need technicians and technologists.

You do. There is a shortage of teachers, particularly on the vocational side.

Yes, for certain subjects such as mathematics and science because industry continues to draw from these categories.

Even for woodwork and metal work?

No, our main problem is in regard to mathematics and science.

In County Mayo we have considerable trouble in regard to woodwork instructors. Recently I had to get in touch with the Department of Education about this. I was talking to the chief inspector who was extremely helpful. This is not the fault of anyone; the teachers are not there.

Again, you would have a draw there from the building trade. It is a problem. It is a case of industry with its better jobs competing for these people.

I think they will have to be brought up. Speaking on a general basis, education is so important that you must pay the best to get the best. If we accepted here some time ago that to get the best Deputy you had to give him a substantial increase in allowances—a view with which I do not agree—but, as this is a general concept, it is all the more important that we must pay the highest rates to teachers at all levels so that we will get the best and keep them. Another point, as I am on the subject of teachers and their recognition is that when teachers are returning from such places as Africa and the North of Ireland while they are now being given credit for two years or four years or something like that——

That is right.

——that is cheeseparing and codology. They should be given full credit if they have been in a school which is recognised by the Department in the country in which they taught. Give them full incremental scales when they come back. I regard teachers who have had that experience as possibly being better than the ones who never left home. The teacher who has had the benefit of international educational experience, not to mention continental experience, the people who go to the Far East or Africa or America, when they come back with the benefit of all the experiences they have had, would if anything be better than the teacher who never travelled.

We are allowing now for the developing countries— Africa, Asia and we also include the Six Counties.

According to my information you do not include India as a developing country.

The Deputy is right; it is not.

The Minister should include it. There are lots of people coming home——

Nigeria, Ghana and all the African countries are included.

That is something that must be taken into account. You will have to pay your teachers if you want to hold them and if you want to compete with industry and management and all the other fields into which good brains go. The teachers must be adequately remunerated. I do not believe it would be that hard to satisfy a group of people like teachers, people who have chosen teaching as a career, because these are dedicated people.

I agree fully with the Deputy.

I cannot speak too highly of teachers, particularly primary teachers. The primary teacher's job is the difficult one of getting the child moulded. The secondary teacher then has the tremendous responsibility of taking over from there. From the point of view of group certificates and the now amalgamated Intermediate Certificate the vocational teacher also has tremendous responsibility. The secondary teacher has the burden of correction and all kinds of after hours work. In addition, the secondary teacher must make sure that the teaching is of such a standard that the pupils under his or her care, guidance and instruction will do as well as possible at public examinations. In other words, the spotlight is on the secondary teacher. It is not on the pupils or on the parents. In a global way it is on the school. But it is for the people who actually teach that we should have the greatest possible sympathy, giving them the greatest possible financial help. They are entitled to it.

The Deputy is an excellent product of the system.

I am a product of the simple system the Minister is doing away with—the two-teacher school. Lest it should be thought that I am referring solely to lay teachers, let me say at once that the religious have done tremendous work in this country in the sphere of education over a long number of years and they deserve the highest commendation from us. They deserve to be treated with great consideration in any rearrangement. We can become over-secularised too soon. That is something that will have to be watched. I have a great deal more to say about secondary teachers but I have been cajoled to some extent by the Minister into not saying anything more while the balloting is going on. I am happy that he has given this undertaking that their employers will all the time be the school.

We will come back to it again after the balloting. If there is any further dispute we can raise it here by way of Parliamentary Question and on the Adjournment. I come now to the burning question of our time where education is concerned. The Minister has, as it were, let us have a broadside by talking of the Higher Education Authority and the terms of reference. Broadly speaking, I think what he wants from that body is advice as to how best the Government can legislate in order to implement the decision of 6th July of this year. I take this to be directed to putting University College, Dublin, into Trinity or Trinity College into University College, Dublin. If I may use the Minister's word—I do not approve of it and I doubt if he approves of it himself—it is the merger. Is this what this is all about?

Inter alia. There are other things.

The merger and related matters.

Related matters, exactly.

Did I read the Minister correctly, speaking in New York the other day—Fianna Fáil Ministers have a desperate habit, if they cannot get a Fianna Fáil Cumann or a dinner at home, in order to make some pronouncement, of travelling to either London or New York to make it— when he said that this was a decision and everything would have to be done and finished within six to nine months, and there was no more about it?

I would hope so. That is the target.

The Minister is, I think, doing himself a disservice by using this big stick. Had he said he hoped to have it done and hoped to have the greatest co-operation——

There will be legislation early in the New Year.

Legislation is not the way to do this.

Of course it is.

With great respect, it is not the way, unless one has reached agreement beforehand. These people in the different institutions are entitled to have their views fully and freely expressed and examined.

The Commission first sat in 1961—seven years ago.

I know all that, but the Commission did not recommend this amalgamation, or merger, or whatever you like to call it. This was an ad hoc announcement prompted for some reason or another at a particular time. Now the Minister comes along and says that within six to nine months this must be done and that is all about it. I do not think the Minister can do that.

That is not the first time I said it.

I know, but it is wrong to keep repeating the wrong thing so many times. To say it once is bad enough. To persist in saying it is irresponsible and I know that irresponsibility is not something with which the Minister would like to be branded. Universities have always been places wherein independence was cherished, wherein autonomy was very closely guarded and wherein appointments were made by the universities themselves. For instance, in the Charter of the National University there is no place at which they are told that they cannot have more than one professor of engineering, for instance. They now have five professors of engineering in University College, Dublin. They were the people who knew best what to do. There is difficulty, too, in another direction. After all, this is the university of the revolution. It is the university of two strong points of view. It is the university of Pearse and of Kettle, men of widely diverging views, but nobody would question the sincerity of the views expressed by each of them. On the other hand, Trinity has a very special place in the history of the country, not all of it great but some of it even more than great. If the Minister puts the Arts Faculty into Trinity College——

Both will have an Arts Faculty.

Then who will decide the common ground of the Arts Faculty in both Belfield and Trinity?

The governing body.

Who will have that contact so necessary between professor and student in discussions relating to the future of the student and the course he should follow, and everything else? Who will preside over that in Belfield and in Trinity and who will ensure that it exists?

There will be two colleges, one university. That will be the function of the governing body. It is quite a common thing.

I do not know. I will not go into the merits of the thing, one way or the other, but I suggest very seriously that the Minister should not bring in any legislative proposals here until such time as he has the full agreement of all interested parties in the proposals. If it were necessary to have meetings every second day or every second night from now on in different capacities in relation to the different faculties, that would be a well worthwhile exercise in order to reach the peak of co-operation which is so necessary.

That is precisely why I set up the Higher Education Authority in advance of legislation.

Has the Minister sufficient information coming back from the Higher Education Authority to enable him to say in New York that this will be all over in six or nine months and that is that?

I do not believe that. The Minister is saying that as glibly as he said in Roscommon on the night of the referendum that he would win by 1,500 votes and he lost by 5,000 votes. The Minister should not make statements of that kind unless he is absolutely certain that they can be verified and proved correct in time. Obviously a great debate on this matter will take place in the future. In the meantime, I would advise the Minister to go easy with this threat of trying to get it finished by a certain time. Anything rushed was very rarely successful. That is true of the building of houses and the making of roads. It is true of any human operation, technical, manual or mental. You cannot do an examination successfully by swotting for two nights before it. It must be a gradual process. The subject must be assimilated over a certain period before success can be achieved. The same is true in relation to the proposals with regard to these two institutions, which are so alike in many ways and so unlike in other ways and in which so many sharply diverging interests are involved. If this discussion or dialogue, or whatever you like to call it, has to go on for five more years, by all means take five more years and do not rush into something which will become a monster and destroy itself in a shorter time than it took to produce it.

We have made good advances in education. We are not going fast enough in some respects but I appreciate the financial difficulties. The big mistake made was that we did not build when materials were cheaper. We are making strides but we are having far too many teething problems. There seems to be a lack of communication or a lack of public relations between the Department and those concerned. I sincerely hope that the discussions which are going on at the moment will be successful. I look forward to the time when there will be no jealousy between the people employed in the different branches of our educational system. At the same time, we want to see that justice is done, that there is proper remuneration for work done, and that no one will be left with a feeling of frustration as a result of being unjustly treated or thinking he is unjustly treated. This is a delicate process.

The Minister has a big job on his hands in the building of primary and secondary schools. I am glad to hear that consideration is being given to providing environmental training in the bigger primary schools. I have advocated this before. Especially in places where land is not too dear, playing fields should be provided near or attached to the schools. On one occasion Deputy Kitt objected to this and said that windows would be broken by those playing football. I think physical training is very important. We should also have some kind of open-air pavilions with elementary gymnastic equipment. The old adage mens sana in corpore sano is still true. There is still a lot to be done. Some things could be proceeded with more rapidly and others are being proceeded with too rapidly. If the Minister has one fault—and I should hate to think he has more than one—it is that he is too precipitate. Perhaps he is genuinely anxious to get things done but he sometimes says the wrong thing. The Minister should not wave the big stick over the heads of the professors and administrators. He has an adequate supply of suavity and charm which he should employ and drop the arrogance which has not paid in recent times.

Listening to the Minister one would get the impression that everything is nice and rosy. He painted a very good picture but he left out some things which really matter. He seems to be unaware of the fact that there is a tremendous amount of disquiet throughout the country about the condition of some of our schools. He glossed over some things and said that everything will be fine. His predecessor said the same last year.

There is one point which I should like to bring to his attention. He said:

In the last year we have also begun to tackle the problem of the unsatisfactory heating and sanitary facilities in many of our schools. Managers were empowered in a circular letter issued last September, to undertake, with the minimum of formalities, the installation of heating and sanitary systems, where these were a matter of urgency, in schools likely to continue in operation for at least five years.

I should like to know what will happen to some of those schools in which the heating and sanitary conditions are deplorable and which may not last for that length of time? I should like to ask the Minister what will happen to the children who must spend their days in those hovels of schools? I would agree with the Minister about the closing of some schools. We must face up to realities. We must provide proper education for our children and small one-teacher schools will not provide that.

There was an instance recently of a school building being demolished in Chapelizod. I heard the Minister for Health last week say it would be a pity that any building which could be put to some useful purpose should be destroyed in this day and age. I am interested to know why this school building should be demolished so rapidly. It was a very fine red-brick building. It showed no signs of being dangerous or in a bad state of repair.

I do not think we can harp too much on the question of national school education. It is the most important part of a child's life. It lays the entire foundation for further education. I do not think we place enough emphasis on it. We see some products of past years—people who could not go beyond national school education— and we see that many of them are unable to write their name. I do not know whether or not we are improving on that situation. We have overcrowded classrooms in Dublin city where children can completely be ignored right through the day. We have classes of over 50 pupils where the teachers are unable to cope. The Minister has not placed much emphasis on this problem except to say that he hopes it will improve.

We should have more recourse to audio-visual aids in national schools. I see no mention by the Minister of television in schools: he has completely ignored this factor. It should be obvious to all of us how powerful a medium television is for the instruction of children. I read a very prominent advertisement in the newspaper recently to the effect that a child of four years was able to quote, word for word, an advertisement which appeared on television: the company concerned made a big fuss of that fact. It would be a great thing if children could avail of television for appropriate purposes and not just to be able to recite the full text of a television advertisement. The Minister might give further consideration to the provision of television in schools.

I should like to discuss school books for the necessitous. The Minister states the matter rests with the headmaster of the school. He does not state that, in turn, the manager of a school must refer cases back to the Minister's Department. In actual fact, the decision does not rest with the headmaster or with the manager of the school. I know of cases where managers of schools sent requests in, for instance, 150 cases, to have only 75 of them approved by the Department of Education. I know of many cases where the medical card must be produced by a child in the school. This is degrading. It is humiliating to parents to have to disclose their income or their means. The Labour Party are very much opposed to this. We feel there should be no means test in the provision of school books or, if it must be done, it should be done very discreetly and medical cards should not have to be displayed by children when considering whether or not they should receive the books. The Minister would be well advised to give further consideration to the question of school books. The present criteria are much too strict. I would ask him very seriously to make a further provision for this very important aspect of education.

The Minister made no mention of a very important thing, namely, parent-teacher organisations, which I consider essential if the progress of children at school is to be observed. Parents should have a greater say in the running of the school, in the curriculum, in the hours. The Minister should encourage the establishment of these organisations more and more throughout the country. I do not think they should be formed in time of crisis as I do not think decisions made by them at such times can be rational decisions. Properly-appointed, responsible, parent-teacher organisations are vital in our present educational system.

A very important point is the provision of school meals for necessitous children. In one area which I visited last night, a very poor-class area, I understand that no school meals what-so-ever are provided—Bluebell. I understand from the people that there is a need for the provision of school meals for these children. On what basis are these meals provided and in what particular areas and schools are they provided?

I understand that teachers of elocution in schools are not recognised by the Department for incremental purposes. Why? Elocution is a very important subject and should be encouraged more in schools.

I agree that the provision of post-primary education is a step in the right direction. It was long overdue. We must bear in mind, however, the many pupils who are unable to avail of it owing to adverse financial circumstances in the home which demand that children must leave school at 14 years of age in order to take up work. I have seen many instances where struggles were made by the family, but without avail. Last year, the Minister promised to consider maintenance grants in respect of such children so that they might attend post-primary schools. For large families in poor circumstances, it would be a wonderful boost to receive some form of grant in respect of children in post-primary schools. It is realised that the parents are deprived of the potential earning capacity of these children at the very important stage when the family is being raised.

On the question of university education, it is a sad state of affairs that the endowment per pupil here is only one-third of that in Britain. We know that in Britain most of the students are scholarship holders and that they get maintenance grants. The Minister should consider proper maintenance grants for all students here. Consideration should also be given to students who must work during the day and who try to avail of part-time courses at universities. Time and again the Minister has rejected this suggestion and I ask him again to give it further consideration. It is sad that there should be such an enormous gap between the endowment per pupil here and in Britain in university education. We have enormous problems at the moment regarding the staffing of our universities. The Minister mentioned that the ideal student-staff ratio would be 12 to one. We fall far short of that at the present time.

In his speech, the Minister glossed over the question of education for the mentally handicapped, a most important aspect of our educational system. We owe it to these people to provide proper educational facilities for them. We are sadly lacking in this. The parents of many such children know how difficult it is for them to obtain places in appropriate schools. The emphasis should be more and more on the training of special teachers for such children, and I ask the Minister to give special consideration to it.

The Minister spoke about career guidance for students. I submit that this guidance should be given at a much earlier age than is provided for at the moment. It should be given when a child leaves the national school. There is a need for it at that time and I earnestly ask the Minister to consider it. At the moment, I understand that career guidance is given at a much later stage of the child's life.

One important college I ask the Minister to consider is the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. The Minister knows of the fine work that college is doing. It has earned a great name for this country abroad. Still, the grant to this college is very small. It has a great part to play in undergraduate education and the Minister should consider increasing the grant.

While I am on the subject, I should like to refer to the question of the merger in Dublin. I think the Minister's tactics, his methods, are wrong in suggesting that he will bulldoze it through the Dáil in the coming session. I agree with Deputy Lindsay that the Minister's attitude has not been right. He has now decided, apparently, that it must be done without proper consultation with the academic staffs and the university authorities. He knows that the university authorities are not in accord with him on this very important point, yet he has decided that it must be done without proper consultation with them. This would be a very rash decision, about which I think we will hear more shortly. Therefore, I ask the Minister to have consultation as often as is necessary to try to achieve accord and agreement on the many points at issue before he proceeds further or makes further statements.

As the Deputy realises, there must be and should be a single university in this city.

I am not opposed to it but it is important that the Minister consults with the university authorities and considers their view points and those of the academic staffs. That is all I am asking him to do. I am pointing out that it is wrong to bulldoze this through the Dáil, as the Minister suggested he will do in his speeches in New York. I agree it is a rational decision but I suggest it should be taken only when every aspect has been considered in consultation with the university authorities.

I revert to the question of free school books for post-primary students because the Minister was not here when I mentioned it earlier. I ask him again about the statement in his speech that some 30 per cent of post-primary students received assistance towards the cost of school books and accessories. I wonder how the numbers compare with the percentage of the population who are in receipt of medical cards. As the Minister knows, the medical cards have been used as the criterion for the provision of school books to necessitous children.

The principal of the school is the best judge of the particular circumstances.

I agree. What I am objecting to is that so many principals of schools have sent requests for books which have not been sanctioned. I know of a few cases. I know of a school in which requests in respect of 135 children were sent in and the Department sanctioned only 70. If, as the Minister says, the principal is the best judge, why do the Department reject the view of the principal and make the decision themselves?

I will look into that. I was not aware of it.

I earnestly ask the Minister to do that because many people who are in need of this service are deprived of it through the decision of the Department. I have spoken to some school principals and they have agreed with me.

At the same time, there has been a substantial improvement in that situation. It is only in the past 12 months that we got this under way.

Yes, but the problems have arisen in the last 12 months.

I will look into this, anyway.

I shall deal briefly with the question of free transport. There are cases of children who must attend private secondary schools because other secondary schools in the area have not been able to provide places for them. In such cases, applications for the free transport service have been rejected by the Department. I should like to know the Minister's views on it and what he proposes to do about it.

These are schools which are not within the scheme. Any school participating in the scheme comes under the free transport arrangements.

I brought this to the attention of the Minister some months ago but still there has not been a decision on it. Some time ago, I raised the problems of waiting lists for admission to schools. The Minister stated he was not aware that there were long waiting lists for admission to primary schools in Dublin, that his Department did not keep records of this—that they did not consider it necessary to consult with schools to find out about the waiting lists, that it was not a matter to be considered of importance. Many Deputies mentioned the fact that this problem exists and I ask the Minister to establish some form of liaison between the schools and the Department on this problem of waiting lists for admission to primary schools. Such a section would help considerably in establishing the numbers to be admitted to schools each year. It would be of great help to the Department. Shrugging it aside as unnecessary is insufficient when so many people complained about this fact.

The Minister's suggestion about introducing an additional course covering an extra year and leading to an Advanced Leaving Certificate is, by my way of thinking, an excellent idea. This specialised course, in which students would concentrate on not more than four subjects, is quite good. It will help our system. I believe it deserves praise and should succeed.

In discussing education generally the Minister mentioned educational psychologists. I would like to know the number at present employed. He says the service is being extended and I should like to know how it is progressing and how far it is made available to post-primary schools.

The Minister has a big problem ahead. He has glossed over it very much and has ignored certain aspects to which I referred earlier. In my opinion, he is on the right road in the improvements of the educational system. I agree about this rationalisation of schools. I am opposed to these one-teacher schools, but perhaps it will take a while for people with fixed ideas to accept the change, with which I thoroughly agree. I support the Minister in this wholeheartedly.

Mr. O'Malley

I want to deal first with the question of university education in this country. I would like to encourage the Minister to press ahead as quickly as he can with the plan to unite the two universities in the city of Dublin. That idea is one of the most sensible which has ever come up with regard to university education in this country. Its obvious benefits and advantages are so clear that it is very difficult to see why anybody should wish to criticise it or wish to impede its implementation. When we look around and see those who are trying to impede its implementation we see that they consist almost exclusively of the staffs of the two universities concerned.

There is, to my mind, a great element of self-interest in the efforts of these people who try to impede the Minister's plans in this respect. To take the example of one of the faculties in Dublin at present—the veterinary faculty—there is a distinct faculty in Trinity College and in University College. They operate in the same premises in Ballsbridge. This is a comparatively small premises and, of course, the faculty in each university is comparatively small. Although the classes of students in some years are often as small as 20 in one or other of the universities, you have a complete staff employed to teach these very small numbers in two adjoining rooms in the same building. It is the greatest nonsense that that situation has been allowed to continue. That situation was created by a sort of bigotry, which I hope is now out of date. It is a disgrace on the part of anybody that he should try to impede the Minister in his efforts to rationalise that situation.

The same remarks apply to a greater or lesser extent to practically every faculty. Many of these professors or lecturers are afraid of a loss of status or income. In my opinion the Minister's standpoint is the only one that is tenable in dealing with this situation, and that is that the interests of the students and of the young people of this country are paramount and that the personal or financial interests of certain professors or lecturers are of no account. The Minister is perfectly right to disregard these efforts to sabotage his scheme, of which there has been criticism comparatively recently. At first, when it was put before the people, it was accepted with such enthusiasm as something so obviously necessary and beneficial that these people, while they might privately disagree with it for their own personal reasons, were not prepared to criticise it publicly. Now they are trying to get in the thin edge of the wedge and trying to sabotage something which is obviously in the interests of the nation as a whole.

One of the results of joining up the two universities in the city of Dublin will be to create a very large university indeed, a university that will probably have in a year or two approximately 10,000 students. To my mind, and to the minds of very many people, that is perhaps even larger than any university college should be. I would urge on the Minister that he would not let it grow any larger than that. It is quite obvious that the demand for university education will continue to grow, principally due to the increased facilities now made available for secondary education.

I would suggest to the Government that the way of dealing with the increased numbers who will be seeking university education over the next few years is to establish a new and separate university outside the city of Dublin in order that the new university of Dublin will not get itself into the state that many universities in America and elsewhere are, where tens of thousands of students are supposed to attend what really amounts to an educational factory rather than a university proper. If the Government will accept the necessity of establishing another university to prevent the overgrowth of the new University of Dublin the only obvious place where such a university could be established is in the city of Limerick. In the Limerick region there are now over a quarter-of-a-million people. There is no university convenient to Limerick which can be attended by people in or around that city. The greatest number of students leaving secondary schools each year in any region of the country is in the Limerick region. A very strong case indeed has been made by the Limerick University Committee for the establishment of a university in Limerick. The case has been made and reiterated over the last eight or nine years and the significant thing about it is that it has never been answered publicly by anybody. That fact is the greatest assurance that the Minister can have or that the country can have of the validity and strength of the case which the Limerick University Committee made.

There has been no serious demand or no demand at all for the establishment of a university anywhere else in this country outside Limerick. I think it must be accepted that there is a necessity for a third university. Once that is accepted, I think the claim of Limerick cannot then be denied. The Government are committed to spending a fairly considerable sum of money on the establishment of a regional institute of higher technology in Limerick. I am not sure of the exact figure but it is certainly well over £1 million and that institute of higher technology will have to be established in the next year or two. I understand it will be one of the more advanced institutes to be established, if not the most advanced. To my mind, it is an obvious move for the Minister to establish a university in conjunction with that to keep down the capital cost. He also by doing so will raise the status of higher technology as a subject, or as a profession, in this country. At present technologists who are necessary for the economic expansion of the country tend to be looked down on in some way, as something like a little better than glorified mechanics. It is unfortunate for us that that is so. It is not so in most other countries. Some of the leading institutes of higher education, both in Britain and the United States, are institutes of higher technology. The Minister will, I think, kill two birds with the one stone if he takes steps to join the higher institute of technology which is destined for Limerick with the University of Limerick.

We have in Limerick at least one site which is highly suitable for both these purposes. In particular it is suitable for a combination of the two and it has the additional advantage that there are extensive buildings on the site which would enable a university to get off the ground in Limerick with the minimum of delay. I can assure the Minister that the need for this is a very urgent one indeed. It is rather heartbreaking to find that people who finish their secondary education and have done quite well at it, who are obviously suitable for university education in the Limerick area, are not getting it simply because there is no university which they can conveniently attend. I am assured that Limerick region serves a population that is about three times the size of that which is served by the University of Galway. I do not want to run down the University in Galway in any way but, at the same time, it must be recognised that a university must be started forthwith and if the new one is to be established here it seems to me inevitable, as a matter of good educational policy if nothing more, that the obvious place to establish it and establish it quickly is in the city of Limerick.

Deputy Dr. O'Connell mentioned the necessity for grants or allowances for some of the students who are now attending secondary schools under the new free education scheme. I should like to support what he said in regard to that. It is probably correct to say that it has been in the mind of the Minister and his predecessor that that sort of system would be put into operation if funds allowed. At present, while secondary education is now free to anyone who wants it free, the very poorest people are not in a position to avail of it. The parents are suffering the loss of income which would come to the family home if these children of 15 and 16, and so on, were earning. I think that an allowance or contribution of even £1 a week to the parents of students who are not financially well-off would be of great assistance and would do a lot to expand still further the most beneficial scheme that has ever been introduced into the educational field in this country.

I am aware that the Minister is inundated at present with requests for grants for new secondary schools because of the generous grants which he is now making available. I have had quite a number of complaints from secondary schools in Limerick city about the delay in dealing with plans in the Department. The numbers under the scheme who attend secondary schools in Limerick city are very large and the existing schools are quite incapable of catering for the number who want to avail of the opportunities that are now made available. I would urge on the Minister for that reason that, if at all possible, the plans that have been drawn up for practically every secondary school in Limerick be expedited. He should get the work started and get the children who would otherwise be deprived of secondary education into schools.

Like my constituency colleague, Deputy O'Malley, who has just spoken I want to say something about the question of Limerick's claim to a university. I would point out that this is the eighth annual Estimate on which I have spoken and on every occasion this question has come up. I am surprised that the Minister in his speech introducing this Estimate made no reference whatsoever to the question of the provision of a university or of higher educational facilities in the city of Limerick. I find this omission of any reference to Limerick rather difficult to understand because the Minister is very well aware of the strong feeling in Limerick and in the entire region there regarding this whole question, particularly with regard to recent developments and the intensification of agitation to focus attention on Limerick's claim to a university. Shortly before the East Limerick bye-election the Minister was in Limerick and, while I have not before me the exact words he spoke, he certainly conveyed the impression that a university for Limerick was under way.

He did not press the button yet.

In August when the Minister was in Limerick for the Muintir na Tíre rural week he met a deputation from the university project committee. On that occasion he was accorded a special reception by the student committee and he was left in no doubt, and he must be in no doubt, about the attitude in Limerick to this whole question.

Well disposed.

The Minister met a deputation from a committee on August 14th I think it was. I do not know what transpired at that meeting but I have reason to think that, whatever the Minister said to that committee, he conveyed the impression that he was enthusiastically in favour of Limerick's claim and that it was only a matter of a short time. More recently still, in a public statement reported in the newspapers, he told Deputy Coughlan that he would deal with it at the appropriate time.

When the referendum is over we will do something about it. I was not going to do anything in the context of the referendum situation.

Can we take it that we will now have something done?

You will hear from me about this matter in due course.

The bye-election has come and gone, the referendum has come and gone and this whole question has come up for discussion year after year. I want to say that the Minister's predecessor, the late Deputy O'Malley, God rest him, referred to it on numerous occasions. I have no doubt whatsoever that he had decided that Limerick was going to get a university and I cannot see any reason whatever for this prolonged delay by the Minister in making an announcement regarding this question. It must be nine or ten years now since this agitation started. A voluntary project committee was established down there and they did a considerable amount of research work. In fact, much of their research work was pioneering work in the field of educational research. Subsequently, they presented their case to the Commission on Higher Education and that body acknowledged and recognised Limerick's claim. In the Report of the Commission on Higher Education Limerick's case is referred to at length and it is conceded that there is a cast iron case for the provision of university educational facilities in the city of Limerick.

I shall not spell the case out in detail again. I have gone over it here on the Estimates for the Department of Education for the past seven years. The case has been spelt out time and time again in the public press and in the submissions of the project committee to the Commission on Higher Education. I know that Limerick's fight for a university has been looked upon in certain higher educational circles here in the metropolis with a certain amount of amusement, but I want to repeat emphatically and to make it quite clear that we in Limerick are in deadly earnest in regard to this matter. We have fought a continuous battle down the years. We have stated our case clearly and emphatically and, as Deputy Desmond O'Malley has just said, nobody has yet attempted to refute our claim.

There are two points I want to refer to. The first is that the Limerick region is not just Limerick city. The Limerick region comprises Limerick, Clare and North Tipperary. These areas have recently been constituted as a development region. There is now a regional development council down there responsible for the overall development of that region. I submit that the provision of university educational facilities is a natural and a logical follow-up on this matter of regional development. In fact, I will go so far as to say that I regard the provision of facilities for higher education as a necessary pre-requisite for the economic development and social progress of this particular region. I would refer to the Report by Dr. Lichfield and Associates on the development potential of this particular region. The Lichfield Report at chapter 4, paragraph 46, section 2, states in relation to the question of university facilities for Limerick:

The lack of university education in Limerick has a detrimental effect on the business-professional community in Limerick, and tends to cause them to move to university towns, especially Dublin, where their children have a much better chance of getting to a university.

It also states:

A university college with faculties in agriculture, medicine and engineering would be a stimulus to the development of all these industries and would attract research facilities to the City and Region.

In Chapter 13, the Lichfield Report, referring again to the higher educational needs of the Limerick region states:

The new Limerick Region as we conceive it will not be complete in character nor function adequately as an economic or social unit unless it has amongst its central functions a university college. This is not a question of seeking a "status symbol"; it is simply a matter of enabling young people from the Region to study near their homes and to offer facilities which attract persons who have it in their power to bring new employment to the area.

The Lichfield Report has clearly established this and has confirmed the findings of the Limerick university project committee in their research work over several years. The Lichfield Report confirms the submissions and the arguments of the project committee in their evidence before the Commission on Higher Education.

Deputy Desmond O'Malley referred to what he called the new college of higher technology in Limerick. The technical college envisaged for Limerick is not a college of higher technology. On 6th February, 1968, shortly before the lamented death of the Minister for Education, Deputy O'Malley, Deputy Eileen Desmond and I referred to this question of definition of technological and technical colleges. What it is intended to establish in Limerick is a regional technical college, which is not a college of higher technology.

There will be certain courses on higher technology in each of these technical colleges, courses related to the needs of the regions. Technical and technological education tend to merge in together.

A regional technical college is a college which provides post-primary, technician training up to and including Leaving Certificate standard.

We are going beyond that.

A college of higher technology is one which provides post-secondary higher education.

That is what we are going to have—two year technician training post-Leaving Certificate.

Post-Leaving Certificate?

That is the whole purpose of the exercise.

I am glad to hear that because that was not made clear at all.

I shall make it clear in my reply. What we want is to establish a tier of education post-Leaving Certificate and yet not full university. I shall explain it in my reply.

May I quote the Lichfield Report on this?

It has nothing to do with the Lichfield Report. I am telling you what we are going to do.

On the 6th February, 1968, the then Minister for Education in introducing his Estimate said in relation to the technical colleges, one of which is to be established in Limerick:

They will be more immediately concerned with providing courses aimed at filling gaps in the industrial manpower structure particularly in the technician area. They will also provide senior cycle post-primary courses leading to the Leaving Certificate with a bias towards scientific, technical and commercial studies.

Then there is the observation of Dr. Lichfield in which colleges of technology are referred to. This is seen in chapter 4, paragraph 45 of the report which states in relation to the provision of a regional technology college in Limerick:

The technical college proposed for Limerick by the Government will not offer the level of training in management, professional or technical subjects that we had in mind; and it is at levels of management, in administration and production and business that the shortages exist which could threaten the expansion of industry and commerce in the Region.

It will offer post-leaving certificate technician courses. These will be provided in every one of these regional colleges. I have said this several times.

I am not being cantankerous in this matter. I am merely trying to establish what, in fact, these regional technical colleges will be. I accept what the Minister says and I am very pleased to hear that there will be post-leaving certificate courses. In other words, they will be offering advanced technological courses?

Yes, technician courses.

I think Deputy O'Malley adverted to this aspect of higher education some time ago when he said that the provision of colleges of higher technology is absolutely essential in the Limerick region. I accept that but I do not accept that it will meet all the requirements of the Limerick region because time and again it has been said that what Limerick needs is a college of technology and not a university. I do not accept that at all. The question has been debated at length and there is general agreement about it. Again, Dr. Lichfield refers to this and he goes so far as to recommend that the college of higher technology and a university would be on the one campus and that there would be integration, communication and exchange between one and the other.

I did not anticipate the debate today on this Estimate. In fact, I have a question tabled to the Minister on the very question of the university for Limerick. We are sick and tired now of all the vague answers, promises and suggestions that have been forthcoming. We want to know what the position is regarding Limerick's claim to a university. Has it been discussed by the Cabinet? Is it due for discussion by them and how soon shall we have an answer? About four weeks ago there was a monster public meeting in Limerick city attended by leaders of Church and State and I would say the most remarkable aspect of the meeting was the fact that on the platform were speakers from the three political Parties. On this issue all Parties in Limerick are united and all have pledged their support to this claim.

Last Thursday a deputation of the students committee of the Limerick university project committee came to Leinster House and met Deputies of all Parties from Limerick and surrounding counties. Their request was that the Deputies from that region should table a private Members' motion calling on the Government to take immediate steps to provide higher educational facilities in Limerick. It is about time we got some definite answer in this matter. I want to tell the Minister that feeling is running very high in Limerick now and for some time past and people's patience is being exhausted. We consider it most unfair and unjust that hundreds of pupils leaving the secondary schools in that region year after year are being deprived of the advantages of pursuing university courses simply because the financial standing of their parents does not permit sending the children to Dublin, Cork or Galway and maintaining them there. We want an answer when the Minister is replying to this debate.

I have referred in previous years to one or two specific matters. I am particularly interested in the question of extern courses. As I have said on several occasions, I can see no reason why the National University could not provide facilities similar to those provided by the University of London whereby students unable to attend full-time university courses are enabled by means of part-time study or attendance at local educational institutions, or by means of correspondence courses, to proceed to university degrees. I have asked questions about this and I understand it is a matter for the universities concerned. Perhaps the Minister should pursue this matter further. I have had experience of doing a university course through the University of London and one of the big snags Irish students run into is the fact that in certain courses, arts and commerce and particularly economics, the courses provided by the University of London are geared more to cater for British rather than Irish students with the result that Irish students are at a considerable disadvantage. The National University could quite easily provide facilities to enable students to study for university qualification in their spare time.

There is an aspect of education to which the Minister made no reference in his speech despite the fact that he did refer to it, I think, in a recent statement during the Summer Recess. I refer to adult education. This question has come up on previous Estimates and provision has been made in previous Estimates for a subvention to the Catholic Workers College, University College, Cork, and the Dublin Institute of Catholic Sociology. There is no mention in the Minister's speech of any of these institutions. In more recent times I distinctly recall when Doctor Hillery was Minister for Education there was a subvention to Muintir na Tíre.

I referred to Muintir na Tuaithe.

Even though it is not specially mentioned here it is important that we should not lose sight of the fact that adult education has an important part to play in the overall educational structure of the country. There has been a tendency in our preoccupation—and we have been rightly preoccupied—with the question of primary, secondary, technical and university education to lose sight of the importance of adult education. There has been a certain amount of confusion about the definition of technical education versus technological education. Similarly, there have been various definitions given as to what, in fact, is adult education. It has been defined as education for leisure, education which would enable people to pursue in their spare time courses leading to certain qualifications which, in turn, would enable them to advance in their chosen sphere of life, and so forth.

The major breakthrough in the field of adult education was made by the then President of University College, Cork, Dr. Alfred O'Rahilly, in about the year 1950. This was the first major attempt in this country to bring the university to the people. In England, since 1897, if my memory serves me correctly, the Workers Education Association, in co-operation with the universities in Great Britain, have been responsible for bringing adult educational facilities within reach of hundreds of thousands of workers. Hitherto, except for the experiment initiated by Dr. Alfred O'Rahilly, the universities in this country have not participated to any marked degree in this field of adult education. It is about time that our university institutions and university professors should come down from their ivory tower and play their part, just as Dr. O'Rahilly and his staff in Cork played their part for a number of years until, unfortunately, the subvention was chopped. At first, it was halved. I do not know whether or not there is any subvention now in respect of adult education. The efforts were stymied. It is about time that the universities would try to follow the lead given by British universities who have assisted the trade union movement there in providing facilities in co-operation with the Workers Education Association.

In rural Ireland Muintir na Tíre has for several years been doing very valuable work in the field of adult education, in providing leadership courses and courses of various kinds in local community centres. This type of work should be encouraged. I should hate to think that this aspect of education was being completely ignored.

There is a very close link between the operation and organisation of youth clubs and the provision of adult education courses because in both cases the provision of a club hall or house is the first essential and, after that various services and training and educational facilities must be provided. I was fortunate to have practical exexperience of a number of experiments in the field of adult education before I entered Dáil Éireann. I saw that there was tremendous scope for the development of youth clubs in this country. I am glad that in the last couple of years more emphasis has been laid on the need for youth clubs and I sincerely hope that the Minister will give every encouragement as well as practical assistance to those who have been doing Trojan voluntary work in an effort to organise youth clubs and to promote the development of our young people.

If there were more youth clubs and facilities for young people, there would be less juvenile delinquency and kindred problems. The former Minister, in replying to the debate last February, dealt in very great detail with this question of youth clubs. There is definitely very great need for the expenditure of more time, money and energy on the promotion of such clubs.

Another matter in relation to education to which I have referred in previous Estimate debates is the question of career guidance. Career guidance is necessary at all stages and is particularly necessary at secondary school and post-primary level. I am glad to know from the Minister's speech that progress is being made in the provision of career guidance and that extra educational psychologists are being recruited. I understand that a difficulty has been encountered here by reason of the fact that there is a serious shortage of suitably trained educational psychologists.

In relation to the important question of teacher-pupil ratio in primary schools, no effort should be spared to attain the optimum desirable. It is possible to argue as to what, in fact, is the optimum desirable teacher-pupil ratio but I understand that it is the aim of the Department of Education to arrive at a situation where there will be one teacher for a maximum of 25 pupils. It is generally agreed now that it is not possible for a teacher efficiently to teach more than 25 pupils. Of course, this question of pupil-teacher ratio is tied up with the provision of adequate classrooms and school accommodation. I am glad, indeed, that the question of insanitary and bad school buildings, which was highlighted so dramatically early this year by the INTO, has been taken notice of by the Department, that progress has been made and that the school building programme and, in particular, the school repair and reconstruction programmes, have been accelerated.

I welcome the introduction of the new system of credit cards or progress cards in the primary schools in substitution for the primary certificate. I am also pleased to note that it is intended not merely that records of the pupils' progress should be kept by the principal teacher in the school but to introduce a system of sending progress reports to the parents periodically. I welcome this development. It is a very good idea. I understand that a progress report will be sent to the parents at the end of each term.

Yes, that is right.

I understand that progress record cards will be kept in substitution for the primary certificate.

These record cards will be passed on to the post-primary school to which the student is going so that the teachers in the post-primary school will have the information furnished to them with regard to the student's aptitude and so on.

As I have said, this is a very desirable development. I welcome the abolition of the primary certificate and I sincerely hope that the new system will work out satisfactorily.

Before concluding I should like to remind the Minister of a matter of which he has already been reminded by Deputy O'Malley, this is of his promise concerning a university for Limerick. We want the button pressed and the green light on as soon as possible.

Does the Deputy wish to do away with Galway?

Galway is doing away with itself. The west is neither awake nor asleep, it has gone. That might silence the Deputy.

I do not believe in throwing apples into an orchard but everyone knows the position with regard to Limerick's demand for a university. Thirteen years ago this month I was the first person to raise this question at local level when I did so in the Limerick City Council. From there it started and the proposed project was unanimously passed. Many people living in Limerick, industrial people and others, foresaw what the benefit of this university would be to the area. They came together at a public meeting to set up this project committee and from then on we in the Limerick City Council handed that demand over to the project committee. The Minister, his predecessor and his predecessor have referred to this matter time and again. The demands were clearly and categorically specified and to my knowledge no objection was raised by any of the three Ministers concerned.

Having said that, I should like the Minister to be honest and open-minded with us and tell us what his difficulties are in this matter. I should like him to let us know why something has not been done during three Ministers, why this particular state of indifference exists with regard to educational facilities for the city of Limerick and its regionalised areas. Could he tell us either publicly or privately as public representatives what exactly his difficulties are? If he did this, both Church and State would back him in his efforts, but we are like fools on top of a mountain.

We do not know where we are. If we knew what the difficulties were we could surmount them. I am sure that all political Parties, all religious denominations, industrialists, trade unionists, and everyone connected with the region will back him to the hilt in his efforts. Further than that I cannot go. Let the Minister now confirm it and let him tell us of his difficulties so that we can tackle them and surmount them. I should like to give him that encouragement.

Mention has been made here regarding the provision of free books. The Minister says that some 30 per cent of post-primary pupils are in receipt of assistance towards the purchase of school books and accessories. To my knowledge, no mention has been made of free books for primary schools, technical or vocational schools.

Those latter two come under post-primary education.

We shall talk about primary education for a start. Some years ago the scheme providing free education for all was acclaimed here. This was first advocated from these benches. I am glad to see that the people on the Fianna Fáil benches took up, at least partially, our demands. Unfortunately, and this is typical of the approach, sweeping promises are made and are not kept. For a long time now we have been hearing a lot about free education, university mergers and so on.

However, I want to tell the Minister in brutal and fair language what the position is with regard to the provision of free books in the primary schools in the city from which I come. I know of a case in point where there are 670 pupils in a primary school of 15 classes, an average of 45 children to each class. £650 was asked for to provide free books for this school. They got £150. This ment that a sum of £10 was allocated to each class of 45 pupils. This school caters for the less fortunate children, for children of parents who are certainly in the lower income group. I would go further and say that 90 per cent of the parents of those children are holders of medical cards.

We understood that the holder of a medical card automatically qualified for the free books. But, lo and behold, a letter was sent from the Minister's Department telling us in the Limerick Health Authority that no such thing was provided by his Department and this action was purely a managerial action and would not be sanctioned by his Department.

First of all, we wanted £600; we got a quarter of it to be divided between the great majority of 670 primary pupils—a loaves and fishes act, certainly. the statement went further to say that it was a matter for the manager of the school or the headmaster. Can you imagine a manager having to deal with a situation in which the majority of 670 pupils were applying for free books? Who was going to visit 300, 400 or 500 homes, or how was the assessment to be made? Who was going to pay for the time wasted on this exercise which has already been done in another Department, the Department of Health, which investigates thoroughly the issuing of medical cards?

It is obvious there is no co-operation between the Departments. There is all this duplication and overlapping. Before a medical card is issued a person's means has been thoroughly investigated by the assistance officer of the health authority. Who was the great genius who thought this up, that the manager of the school has the final say in this matter of free school books? Surely any man with a spark of intelligence would realise the method I suggest is the only right and practical one. I want to impress upon the Minister that he should give careful and sympathetic consideration to the issuing of free books to a medical card holder without any further investigation into his means.

Another matter which troubles us gravely in Limerick is this burning question of the reconstitution of the vocational committee. There was an inquiry held in Limerick the cost of which ran into thousands of pounds. Nobody seemed to know who should pay the cost. When the Minister got the cost from each person concerned, the legal costs and so on, he allocated a certain sum and said: "Take it or leave it and no more about it." However, that is a matter for the legal profession and the Department. What the citizens of Limerick and I are more concerned about is the reason why the committee has not been reconstituted in the city of Limerick. Where else is there the Gilbertian situation of having two headmasters in the one school, as is the case in the city of Limerick in connection with vocational education? Can anyone imagine two parish priests in the one parish? Could it happen in Roscommon? Law has been threatened in another school between one teacher and another. Citizens have been speaking on behalf of one teacher or another.

They are very litigious people down in Limerick.

This situation has been caused by the Department of Education.

It has nothing to do with us.

Nobody else caused it but you and the Department. When I say "you" I speak about your predecessors. I am not being personal. Why can the committee not be reconstituted as in every other area in Ireland? Thousands of pounds were spent on a stupid, unnecessary exercise and all that came out of it was that the committee was disbanded and no reason given for its disbandment. Nothing has been done since to reconstitute it, and we are now in the situation that we have a one-man committee who comes from Dublin every month, sits for an hour or so in the CEO's office, signs whatever has to be signed, and away he goes and we do not see him again for another month. There is absolute chaos in the whole vocational system in Limerick. Despite what may be said, I know the rumblings that are going on and I know what is happening.

I would ask the Minister, in his own interest, to take this worry off his shoulders and the shoulders of his Department and to do the natural thing, to adopt the system which operates sensibly in every other area except Limerick. Why should Limerick always be picked upon for victimisation by the Minister's Department? There is not a damn word here about Limerick today although the Minister gives us figures for this, that and the other. As the Minister knows, figures can tell the greatest lies that were ever invented.

The Minister talks about vocational school extensions. I would ask him to come to Limerick for one or two hours and I will bring him to some of the extensions that were built, glorified dog kennels, a disgrace to the areas in which they were built.

The Deputy cannot have it both ways.

If you are doing the job do a good job. You built one of these glorified dog kennels in one of the best residential areas in the city of Limerick.

What about the boys and girls who otherwise would not get that education?

I will come to that. The Minister need not become excited. Perhaps the atmosphere in America got him down. Do not let us become worked up like some Deputies on those benches did last night. Twelve months after the school had been built the floor in the hallway had to be torn up and replaced because of rot. That school is the engineering school in O'Connell Avenue, Limerick, and it is directly opposite my front door. I can tell the House that if any application came before the Limerick Planning Authority, of which I am a member, for permission to erect a structure like this it would be turned down out of hand. However, there, again, as in other matters we have no say in this. They tell us that they are building schools. An extension to the Jesuit college in the Crescent, about 100 yards away from my home, was built in a cellar, or another dog kennel. It was a makeshift building and if a good gust of wind came up from the Shannon the roof would land in the hills of clare. That is the kind of thing you are building. As far as we in Limerick are concerned if you tell us that this is an improvement and an extension of education then we do not know what education is.

Fair enough.

You have destroyed the most valuable sites we have in the city with these dog kennels. Free education how are you! I should like now to turn to the question of providing help for voluntary bodies. I am associated with one such body and I am familiar with the wonderful work which is being done for young boys by way of boys' clubs. We had to raise money on a voluntary basis because we are building and so on and required funds. Other people had to do the same thing throughout the city of Limerick. This is something to which the Minister should apply his mind for obvious reasons upon which I am not going to dwell. Some help should be given to these bodies by way of grant or some other consideration. They are doing a tremendous job for these boys who attend the clubs on three or four nights a week. The Minister knows all about this and I do not want to hold up the House by going into the details of the work these dedicated and noble people are doing and the results they obtain. I would ask the Minister to consider providing them with some assistance, say, by way of free rates or in some other manner. This would show some recognition of the work they are doing for young boys and girls in the built-up areas in the larger cities and towns.

Now I come to the question of providing educational facilities for retarded children, particularly retarded boys. We all know what it means for parents whose children are so afflicted. Some of these retarded children are more difficult to handle than others and the parents are there night and day, perhaps, without an opportunity to leave the house and they cannot allow the child on to the street. I do not want to go into the morbid side of all this. The Minister knows the position and I do not have to tell him. I have made representations, as I suppose everybody in the House has, to the various people concerned, to the Brothers of St. John of God and to others concerned with the problem. You are told in this institution that there is a four-year waiting period and in another institution there is a three-year waiting period. The unfortunate parents are trying to do something but if eventually they are lucky enough to be told that there is a vacancy in some institution they find that the child has gone beyond the training stage. Those concerned with the problem are doing marvellous work and I might mention particularly a congregation of nuns in Limerick who are catering for retarded girls. Within the last few years they built an extension to their institution but it could be three or four times as large if it were to cater for the demands made on it. For the life of me I cannot see why the Department does not tackle the problem as it should be tackled. These are all human beings like the rest of us and it can happen in any family that they will have a retarded child. I should like to impress this matter as much as possible on the Minister and on his Department.

In regard to this school of technology may I say that we heard five or six years ago that such a school was to be erected in Limerick? I do not remember which Minister made this announcement but the Limerick City Council got down to work and informed the Minister that we had four sites ready, that various other matters were prepared, and asked if we could lay water and so on. There the position rested. Now we have had the declaration that Limerick is back about the sixth place. I want to say to the Minister that when I speak here I speak from experience. I do not become personal nor do I abuse merely for the sake of abuse. I want to remind the Minister that in Limerick we have the industrial estate at Shannon, 12 or 14 miles distant from us, and there technicians are required every other day of the week. We should have got first claim for this school of technology.

Do not worry, it is going up.

Almost immediately.

Just a moment. Are we in the first two?

We cannot do them all at the one time.

Almost immediately the Minister said.

It is passed, allocated, sanctioned.

I know that, but it was placed sixth on the list. Have we gone up in the queue now?

Two have already started and two more will start shortly. We will be signing the tender documents next week and Limerick will come in then. It is a matter of months.

In a matter of months we will have our school of technology in Limerick?

It will not be built. It will be started. About six months.

I want to tell the Minister about the building of it. The Minister will have no say in the building of it. Mr. McCreery, if the Minister understands what I am at, and the patrons of his group, Deputy Blaney, Minister for Agriculture, and Mr. Haughey, Minister for Finance, the Tacateers, will have the say in the building of it.

They have nothing to do with it.

They will have the say as they have in Ryan's Holdings.

That is entirely wrong. The Deputy either wants it built or he does not want it built.

I did not want to bring this in. It was the Minister dragged it in. Do not blame me for it. I asked the Minister when would it be started.

It will be started inside the next 12 months, easily.

The Minister said "shortly".

Do not keep at him or it will be a couple of years before you know where you are. The Minister is going back.

He is. I want to impress on the Minister the necessity for this school of technology in Limerick because of the demands from the industrial estate at Shannon. Will the Minister not agree with me that, because of Limerick's proximity to this industrial estate, Limerick should get priority?

I agree and it will once this group is out of the way. This group will be out of the way next week. That will be the fourth and then, after that, Galway and Limerick.

Then it is the week after next.

I did not say that. Carlow and Dundalk have already started. The tenders for Athlone and Sligo will be signed next week. Galway and Limerick then will be the next.

Does the Minister not think Limerick should take priority over Sligo? I know the Minister's reasons for Athlone. We can understand Athlone.

That decision was taken before I took over the Department.

The Minister did not have his eyes closed. I want now to press on the Minister that he apply himself, promptly and with all alacrity, to the provision of free books in the primary schools. The secondary schools get two-thirds of their requirements.

The primary schools jumped from £6,000 last year to £87,000 this year.

I told the Minister figures can be the greatest liars. Figures mean nothing to me. I have parents coming to me complaining about books and, when I ring the school and ask why so-and-so is not getting free books, I am told that the school asked for £600 and they got £150 and, with an average of 45 pupils in each class, all that could be allocated to each class was £10.

£6,000 to £87,000 is not a bad jump.

How much of that goes in unnecessary expense, such as the sum given to headmasters to investigate the means of pupils, means that have already been investigated by home assistance officers?

The beauty of the scheme is that there is no expense at all because it is the principal who does the work.

The work has already been done by the local home assistance officers.

The principal is a better judge of the educational needs of the child than the home assistance officer.

In the primary schools?

Yes, of course.

Surely it is a matter of means in the primary school. How can a headmaster assess the ability or intelligence of a child of five or six years of age?

It is a figure that should be kept flexible and it is working very well.

It has nothing to do with educational needs. This is the availability of books and the Minister is making a home assistance officer out of the headmaster.

Actually this is working very well.

The Minister would want to come down to Meath to meet the people who have applied for free books and have not got them.

Why does the Deputy not put down a question as to how much is allocated?

The Minister gave £150 instead of the £670 asked for, which worked out at £10 per class of 45 pupils. If that is not the loaves and fishes I do not know what it is. Nobody could solve it except the Minister and he is making no effort. He is confusing the whole situation with figures and more figures—lies and damn lies. Let the Minister not quote figures to me because I do not accept them. I emphasise the necessity for free books in the primary schools, the necessity for a thorough investigation into the position of retarded children, particularly boys, the provision of facilities or amenities of some kind for boys' clubs and special consideration for those who run these clubs. Finally, I ask for the reconstitution of the vocational committee in Limerick city.

I should like to make a few remarks with regard to one aspect of the Minister's statement and to make them in the context of the closing of a school at Kilmacow in my constituency. In the course of his opening statement the Minister referred to the policy of amalgamating small schools into larger units. He said that the Government are pressing on with this policy and have, so far, closed 474 small schools. The Minister then makes the case that the merits of the policy are being realised more and more and he refers to opposition which occurs to the closing of small schools. He then goes on to say:

Sometimes approaches are made to Deputies from every side of the House to lend support and encouragement to this opposition. Now, I do not propose to argue again the case for the closing of small schools—for me, the case is proved beyond all doubt. But I will ask Deputies to consider the two broad alternatives. On the one hand, sentiment and tradition seek to continue the small local school with its restricted curriculum and its overworked teacher—the inheritance from another age and an alien government. On the other hand, our policy, framed by us for our own children, offers better teaching, a more varied curriculum, better preparation for the new educational opportunities available in the post-primary school, the prospect of more regular attendance, supervised and free transport. Only one question need be put...

This is the question which the Minister puts-and again I quote:

...which alternative holds the greater advantage for the child? I need not point the answer, but I would appeal to Deputies to refrain from exacerbating the controversy that occasionally arise when we propose to close a small school; by lending their support to opposition they are confusing parents whose real need is reasoned guidance and encouragement to seize new educational opportunities for their children.

I and Deputy Timmins asked the Minister a Parliamentary question yesterday. We asked him: "...if he will make a statement as to the position of the national school in Kilmacoo, County Wicklow; and if it is intended to reopen it." The Minister himself was not here to deliver the reply which was given on his behalf by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The reply given was:

I am fully satisfied that, in order to make proper provision for the educational needs of the Kilmacoo children, the only course open to me was to amalgamate the Kilmacoo school with the school in Avoca.

In the circumstances, there can be no question of reopening the school at Kilmacoo.

I want to raise this particular matter from a number of points of view. I am one of those Deputies who can see force in the argument put up by the Minister as to the relative merits of small schools and large schools, but there is one thing which I think is missing from the Minister's statement —one thing which I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, is missing from the Government's procedure in implementing their policy-that is, the vital question of consultation with the local people in the area.

So far as I know from the information available to me in regard to the closure of the Kilmacoo national school, there was very little, if any, consultation with the parents of the children in the area. The Minister should be aware—and I think he is aware of it because it was mentioned by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in reply to supplementary questions yesterday—that the radical position has been reached in that area where, for several weeks if not months past, a strike has been in progress, and the parents of the children in the area have not been persuaded by the Minister or his Department that there is adequate justification for closing their school in Kilmacoo. So far as I am aware, the action in that area is supported unanimously by the parents. I do not know of any parents in the area who have yet allowed their children to go to the national school in Avoca.

The issue is one which was brought to the attention of the Minister not, let it be said, by Opposition Deputies but by a junior Minister of the Government, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government who brought a deputation from the parents in that area to see the Minister Was that the kind of thing the Minister had in mind when he said in his statement introducing this Estimate that he "would appeal to Deputies to refrain from exacerbating the controversy that occasionally arises when we propose to close a small school; by lending their support to opposition they are confusing parents..."? I wonder was this one of the cases the Minister had in mind because at that stage the only Deputy from the constituency involved in bringing this deputation to the Minister was a Deputy of the Minister's own Party. I do not know whether it was because of an oversight that the other two Deputies for the constituency —both of whom belong to this Party— were not invited to attend with that deputation.

I want to refer to another aspect of this matter. The Parliamentary question to which I have referred was asked by myself and Deputy Timmins yesterday and the reply given on the Minister's behalf was, as I have read out, that:

I am fully satisfied that, in order to make proper provision for the educational needs of the Kilmacoo children, the only course open to me was to amalgamate the Kilmacoo school with the school in Avoca.

In the circumstances, there can be no question of reopening the school at Kilmacoo.

That reply was given yesterday, 30th October, but on 29th October, one of the people concerned on behalf of the parents whose children attend this school in Kilmacoo received a letter from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government intimating that the Minister would receive a deputation on the subject next week on 6th November. I want to put this to the Minister quite plainly and bluntly: is this merely shadow boxing? What is the purpose of the Minister being prepared to receive a deputation from these unfortunate parents whose children are not now being educated if he could tell the Dáil yesterday that his mind is made up, that his mind is closed on the subject and that he has no intention of reopening the school?

Surely the whole purpose of this deputation—and I was at the meeting at which the request for another deputation to be arranged was made— is so that reasoned discussion and consultation can take place between the representatives of the parents on the one hand and the Minister and his Department on the other——

That does take place.

——with a view to getting these children educated and getting this school reopened. If the Minister has no intention of reopening the school, why is he receiving the deputation?

We all receive deputations.

As I said, one of the things that seem to be sadly missing in the handling and implementing of this policy is consultation with the people particularly concerned. The Minister may correct me on this if I am wrong. I have referred to the fact that neither Deputy Timmins nor I was invited to attend with the previous deputation which was received by the Minister.

Do not blame me for that.

I am not blaming the Minister. I am saying he can correct me if I am wrong in the statement I am about to make. Neither of us had the opportunity of being present with that deputation. I understand that in the course of the discussion, the point was made, either by the Minister or on his behalf, that this was a policy on which there was general agreement by all the political Parties in the House. Does the Minister concede that that case was made by him or for him?

Deputy Dillon has been saying that here for years.

I am not talking about what Deputy Dillon said. I simply want to know whether the Minister made that case to the deputation.

Indeed, I did. It is true.

That is exactly what I want.

I have never heard any formal disavowal of it by Fine Gael or the Labour Party.

I want to suggest to the Minister that that is over-simplifying the matter. One of the important features of the recommendation made in the Fine Gael policy regarding this matter—and it is published in black and white for the Minister to read—is that this kind of consultation which I am advocating should take place.

It always does take place at local level.

We may have an opportunity of discussing at another time whether or not sufficient consultation took place in this case. I want to put on record not only for the Minister but for anyone else who feels that the Fine Gael Party advocate the closing down of these small schools, whether they be one-teacher schools or two-teacher schools, without proper consultation and without proper examination of the position that that is not so. The Fine Gael policy, printed in black and white, published and available to the Minister and to anyone else who cares to read it, says, at paragraph 50, page 16 of the booklet Fine Gael Policy For a Just Society:

The policy of working towards larger rural schools is not one to be imposed willy-nilly on communities who have not even been told why it is desirable—it is one to be worked out in consultation with these local communities, and one to which there will certainly be many exceptions. Quite apart from the impractibility of carrying out this policy in respect of, for example, one-teacher schools on islands around the coasts, the case for the replacement of two-teacher schools is by no means of universal validity, and there will be a significant number of exceptional cases in which it will be sound policy to re-build two-teacher schools. Within the framework of the overall policy of replacing one-teacher and two-teacher schools by larger schools, individual cases must be considered on their merits.

I want to put very seriously to the Minister that the particular case I am talking about, the case of Kilmacoo national school, is one which can be considered by him as an exception. It is one which, to my mind, would certainly come within the framework of exceptions visualised by the Fine Gael policy for a just society in relation to education. Here you have an area which, if you like to adopt the Minister's own phrasing, has had the tradition of education, an area where there has been a school in existence for, I think, close on 100 years, since about 1870, and where the present school is in good condition so far as structure, decorative order and so on, are concerned. To my mind, it is in first-class condition. I have seen it. I have been in it. I know what it is like.

It seems to me that the Minister might hold his mind open, at least, on the subject of this particular school. Certainly, as far as I am concerned, I think it will be a waste of time meeting the Minister on a deputation unless he is prepared to give me some indication now that his mind is not as closed as it appeared from the reply, given on his behalf yesterday, to the question asked here, when I was told that, in the circumstances, there can be no question of reopening the school at Kilmacoo. Does the Minister stand over that? Is he prepared to discuss with this deputation the possibility of reopening the school or, from the Minister's point of view, is the only purpose in receiving the deputation to try to convince the parents and the representatives of the parents that they are wrong and that there is no point in their pursuing the campaign which they have pursued in a united and determined way up to this?

I am not asking these questions rhetorically. I am asking them seriously of the Minister. I should be obliged if the Minister would give some intimation of his outlook, of what is in his mind, in agreeing to receive this deputation. Let me say this to him. If the Minister is not prepared to give me, here and now, an intimation that he is prepared to discuss with the deputation the question of reopening this school, I propose writing to the person concerned, who has already received Deputy P. Brennan's letter to the effect that the Minister will receive the deputation, to tell him that I have been unable to get any intimation from the Minister that he is prepared to discuss the question of reopening the school and that the only reply which the Minister has given has been in the terms of the reply to the Parliamentary Question yesterday. Would the Minister tell me if he is prepared, next week, to discuss the question of reopening this school?

I shall have to look at the file to familiarise myself fully with the matter.

May I take it then, that the Minister has not a closed mind on the subject?

I always have an open mind about everything.

I am not fencing. I am quite serious about this. Is there, or is there not, any purpose in going on a deputation to the Minister with a view to having the school reopened?

There are many matters that can be discussed.

If the Minister wants to fence, well and good. I am telling him that my understanding of the position is that this deputation is going to him with a view to trying to get the school reopened.

I cannot talk, off-the-cuff, about every national school in the country. I must look at the file and ascertain the facts.

I take that remark by the Minister as meaning that his mind is not closed and that he is prepared to discuss with the deputation the reopening of the school.

I shall discuss the matter——

Discuss it with a view, I hope, to being prepared to accede to the wishes of the parents in the area. Deputy Geoghegan and the Minister may laugh or may think it is very naïve to expect a Minister of State——

I am not laughing.

——to step down when a policy decision of this sort has been made. However, let me remind both the Minister and the Deputy sitting behind him——

What was the Deputy laughing about? Was it about this? Deputy O'Higgins might be mistaken.

——that it can make for better life for everyone in this country if large organisations, if Departments of State and if Ministers at the head of Departments are prepared to discuss these matters reasonably with the people concerned and are prepared to change their mind if necessary.

Do not worry. We shall discuss the matter with them.

Is Deputy O'Higgins getting jealous of the Parliamentary Secretary?

I do not follow the Deputy's intervention. I am sure it was very witty and very solemn. Possibly he will elucidate, another day, for us. If the Minister is prepared to consider the matter on that basis, on the basis of an open mind, I shall be quite happy with the position.

I have an open mind until I ascertain the facts.

I want to ask the Minister one other question. It is in connection with the policy regarding the university merger. There has been support for the proposal to bring about the merger but it is quite clear there is also considerable opposition to the proposal in its present form. I do not think I am wronging the Minister when I say his attitude has been that this matter is not open for further debate or discussion. I ask him to do a bit of re-thinking on that attitude. If the merger is to work it can only be made to do so if there is the fullest co-operation of the academics.

The Higher Education Authority have now issued an invitation to all concerned.

I know, but on this subject it is necessary to approach the matter not with a closed mind, an attitude that no further debate or discussion can take place. It is a subject about which there is scope for discussion and debate.

There is plenty of scope for discussion on detail.

Even on general questions.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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