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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1969

Vol. 238 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1969, for the Salaries and Expenses of the office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

This token Supplementary Estimate of £10 is being taken to give Deputies an opportunity to discuss the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for the financial year 1968-69. This Estimate was, as Deputies are aware, one of a number which were agreed to without discussion on 12th December, 1968. On the same date the House agreed to a Supplementary Estimate of £8.8 million in respect of pay increases for the public service. Included in that figure was a provision of £1.8 million for Post Office staff. For convenience of reference, I propose to relate my comments on the details of the Estimate to the figures shown in the published book of Estimates.

The net Estimate of £22,747,000 shown in the Estimates volume is £1,328,000 greater than the corresponding figure for 1967-68. Of that increase, £350,000 is in Subhead K, the Grant-in-Aid to Radio Telefís Éireann, in respect of increased broadcasting licence revenue. Accordingly, the net increase for the services directly provided by my Department would appear to be £978,000. The published figures for last year do not, however, include an additional sum of £408,000 provided at the end of March in the general Supplementary Estimate for increases in remuneration in respect of various staff pay awards and improvements in conditions of service. The actual increase is, therefore, £570,000 plus the £1.8 million for extra remuneration to which I have already referred.

Devaluation, a new cost element in the Estimates this year, is expected to increase gross expenditure by about £350,000, of which £200,000 will be recovered from Telephone Capital funds. Devaluation will also involve a reduction in Post Office revenue by about £50,000 in settlement of accounts with other administrations for the handling of postal and telecommunications traffic.

The following comments are offered on the other subheads which show substantial variations from the corresponding amounts for last year:

The increase of £572,000 in Subhead A, Salaries, Wages and Allowances, is mainly required to meet the cost of the pay revisions approved last year, which I have already mentioned, and to provide additional staff, particularly for the telephone service. The extra costs arising out of the current round of pay increases were, as I have already said, included in the Supplementary Estimate for public service pay increases agreed to on 12th December, 1968.

There is a reduction of £74,000 in Subhead C, Accommodation and Building Charges, due mainly to the completion of some major building works.

The increase of £91,000 in Subhead D, Conveyance of Mails, is almost entirely due to the effect of devaluation on the cost of our expanding airmail services.

Devaluation accounts for £250,000 of the total increase of £450,000 in Subhead F, Engineering Stores and Equipment. The balance is due to greater purchases of stores and greater expenditure on contract works under this year's Telephone Capital Programme.

The increase of £533,000 in Subhead G, Telephone Capital Repayments, is the result of growth in the capital investment in the telephone service.

The increase of £737,000 in Subhead T, Appropriations-in-Aid, arises mainly from the expected recovery of an additional £500,000 from Telephone Capital funds under this year's programme. A new provision this year is an amount of £50,000 for agency services in connection with the Department of Labour's Redundancy Scheme.

Letter traffic in 1967, comprising about 440 million items, was over two per cent higher than in the previous year. First-class air-mail showed an increase of four per cent and second-class air-mail of over 27 per cent. It is provisionally estimated that total letter traffic in 1968 was also about 2 per cent higher than the 1967 level.

There was a reduction estimated at 3 per cent in the number of parcels handled in 1967 as compared with 1966. This was to some extent due to the restrictions on parcel traffic introduced following the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in England but there had been a downward trend in previous years. Provisional figures for 1968 indicate that total parcel traffic will be much the same as in 1967, that is, somewhat more than eight million.

There was an increase of seven per cent in the volume of meter-franked postings in 1967 and this trend was repeated in 1968. These postings now make up thirty per cent of total postings. The conditions governing this type of mail have been relaxed to encourage the greater use by firms of meter-franking machines.

The percentage of first-class letter postings delivered throughout the country by the following working day is about 94 per cent of the total postings. For parcels and second-class mail the standard is only marginally lower. The bulk of mail for places abroad is sent by air on the day of posting and with few exceptions mail received from abroad is delivered on the day of receipt or on the following working day.

During 1967, 65 motorised delivery services were introduced. In 1968 a further 70 routes were motorised. There are now over 300 motor delivery rural services in operation.

Thirty-eight new postman posts were created in 1967 to deal with increased mail work arising from housing developments in urban areas. A further 31 posts were created in 1968.

Sixteen Sub-Post Offices were closed in 1967 on the occurrence of vacancies and 11 further offices were closed in 1968. In all cases the services provided were not being used sufficiently to justify keeping the offices open. There are now more than 2,100 Sub-Offices and 98 Departmentally staffed post offices in the country. We still have more post offices in relation to population than most other countries.

The new Central Sorting Office in Sheriff Street, Dublin was opened in August, 1967. The office is linked directly with Connolly Station by means of an overhead bridge which permits the transfer of bags of mail in both directions by a chain conveyor.

For many years articles and literature for the blind have been accepted for transmission by post at nominal rates. In response to representations from associations devoted to the welfare of the blind, I propose to introduce amending Post Office legislation which will, inter alia, enable this class of postal matter to be transmitted free of postage.

In 1967 special issues of postage stamps were made to mark the Centenary of the Fenian Rising, the Tercentenary of the birth of Jonathan Swift, the Centenary of the Canadian Confederation and International Tourist Year. We also joined with other members of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations in producing a Europa stamp in 1967.

Special issues during 1968 comprised the annual Europa stamp and stamps commemorating the 800th Anniversary of the founding of St. Mary's Cathedral, Limerick, the Centenary of the birth of Countess Markievicz, the Centenary of the birth of James Connolly and the International Year for Human Rights. A special stamp was issued on 21st January last to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the first assembly of Dáil Éireann. The other special issues during 1969 will be on the Europa theme, the 50th anniversary of the International Labour Office, the centenary of the birth of Mahatma Gandhi, and a stamp featuring a contemporary work of Irish art. The first group of the new series of definitive stamps was issued on 14th October, 1968. The remaining denominations in this series will be issued during the first half of this year.

A total of 1,296,000 telegrams was handled during 1967. This was 3.7 per cent lower than in 1966. The decline was greatest in telegrams exchanged with Britain and Northern Ireland which were down by 8 per cent. The number of foreign telegrams increased by 2.5 per cent in keeping with the trend in recent years. Foreign telegrams (both incoming and outgoing) now account for about one-quarter of total traffic. Complete figures for 1968 are not yet available but for a considerable part of the year, total traffic showed a small increase over the 1967 level.

We now exchange telegrams directly, using the Gentex system of automatic switching, with seven continental countries, namely, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Luxembourg, France, Norway and Italy. It is hoped to extend the service to other European countries later.

Telegrams for countries not available on the Gentex system are worked to automatic message relay units in London and New York. This arrangement, introduced in 1966, has greatly speeded the re-transmission of telegrams between Ireland and those countries which are also connected to the units.

The telex service is expanding at a remarkable rate. The number of subscribers increased from 400 on 1st January, 1967, to 503 on 31st December, 1967, and to 662 on 31st December last. We have had therefore a growth of 66 per cent in two years.

It is evident that the advantages of this extremely useful form of communication are being realised by a rapidly growing number of firms. I have directed that all necessary steps be taken to ensure that requests for connection be met without avoidable delay and that the quality of service be held at a high level.

In anticipation of future expansion, contracts have been placed to increase substantially the capacity of the existing exchanges at Dublin, Cork and Shannon. An order has also been placed for an exchange at Waterford. Overhaul centres have been opened at Cork, Shannon and Waterford. To cater for the increasing traffic, 16 extra circuits were put into service in September last on the London route. It is hoped to get direct circuits to Germany later this year and also to double the number of circuits to the USA.

Telex service is now available to 106 countries. In addition to Britain, 12 European countries are reached by direct dialling.

I am glad to say that it was found possible to reduce the rental charges for long-distance subscribers as from 1st October, 1967. The reduction benefited all subscribers whose installations are located more than 50 miles from Dublin; for example, the annual rental for a subscriber at Galway was cut by £48 and at Cork by £70.

The telephone service is also expanding rapidly. In 1967 the traffic handled amounted to 254 million calls, which was 7.9 per cent more than in the previous year. Of the total, 226.5 million were local and 27.5 million were trunk calls. 82 per cent of calls were dialled directly by the caller. Figures of traffic for 1968 are not yet available but it is clear that there was a further substantial increase.

In 1967 some 1,450 additional trunk circuits comprising about 30,000 circuit miles were provided on 270 routes, mainly in underground cable; many open wire trunk routes were replaced by trunk cables thus improving the quality and reliability of the service; and ninety additional Cross-Channel circuits and two extra circuits to the USA were provided. Among the more important routes that were improved were many in the Counties Cork, Louth, Monaghan and Waterford as well as routes radiating from Cork, Dublin and Limerick. Since January, 1966, a further 627 trunk circuits comprising about 39,000 circuit miles have been provided; and 37 more Cross-Channel circuits and 3 extra transatlantic circuits—two to Canada and one to the USA—have been brought into service.

Progress with the extension of the automatic system continues. During 1967, 47 manual exchanges were converted to automatic working, a further 28 were converted by the end of December last and 10 more exchanges, including Tralee, are due to become automatic by the end of March next. There are now about 320 automatic exchanges to which 83 per cent of subscriber's lines are connected. Most of the lines connected to manual exchanges have continuous service and, overall, 98 per cent of our subscribers now have continuous service.

In 1967 additional equipment to provide for future subscriber and traffic growth was installed in 31 automatic and 61 manual exchanges. In 1968, 47 automatic exchanges and 100 manual exchanges were similarly extended. In addition, a modern manual exchange was put into service in Skibbereen in July last. Within the next six months similar exchanges will be provided at Castleblayney, Castlerea, Donegal and Listowel. Many other exchanges will be extended.

The number of telephones installed has been increased steeply by a record figure. In the year to 31st March, 1968, 19,393 subscribers' lines were connected as compared with 15,528 for the previous year. The increase was 25 per cent approximately on what had been, as I said last year, the highest number of installations ever reached in any 12 month period. As a result, despite a sharp rise in demand, the waiting list had by the 31st March last been reduced by 3,000 to 7,585 of which 2,762 were in course of installation. The target for the current financial year is 22,000 connections; 17,000 were provided in the nine months April-December, 1968, so that we are well on the way to reaching it.

I have had particular attention given to the older outstanding applications which had been held over because they required extensive construction work. It is expected that the great majority of the remaining pre-1968 applicants will be offered service before the 31st March next.

The summer of 1968 saw outstanding growth of traffic, attributable largely in some areas at least, to the successful tourist season and growth of motoring holidays. These factors and the exceptionally fine summer led to a remarkable increase in the number of cross-channel calls booked at provincial exchanges in the evening hours, in July and August particularly. At Dublin trunk exchange too, traffic was sharply up as compared with 1967.

I should explain to the House that the quality of subscriber service can be analysed in the following way. Service can be sub-standard where there is an insufficiency of plant-switches or cable, wire or radio circuits—to cope with existing traffic. As indicated above, a very substantial programme of extension in this field has been completed and further extensions are continuing to be made to meet constantly growing needs. Service can also be sub-standard when the percentage of faulty connections not due to faulty dialling or engaged numbers is excessive in comparison with the excellent standards in this respect to be found in some other countries. The efficiency of the system is measured by special equipment and also by frequent trial calls made by the inspectorate.

Last year I mentioned that priority attention would be given to the quality of the trunk and local service. I am glad to say that there has been a marked improvement in the system since I last reported to the House and our aim is to reach the highest level of service to be found in any country with which valid comparisons can be made. There is, of course, no question of being satisfied with what has been done. In some areas the standard is still not satisfactory and improvement schemes to raise this standard are in progress in many instances—some are referred to later—and in preparation in the remainder. All these schemes will be pushed ahead as quickly as possible.

The maintenance organisation has already been modified and further steps are being taken to improve efficiency.

At this point I shall refer briefly to some of the development works in progress or proposed.

A new manual exchange comprising 67 operating positions is in course of installation at Dame Court, Dublin, and will be brought into service for next summer's traffic. A new Directory Enquiries suite was brought into service last May.

Underground or aerial co-axial cable schemes between Cork, Bandon and Skibbereen, Dundalk, Castleblayney and Monaghan and Castle-blayney-Ballybay-Cootehill have been completed since the 1st April and the following are due to be completed before next summer: Arklow-Gorey-Enniscorthy; Cahirciveen-Killorglin; Ennis - Ennistymon; Ennis - Kilrush; Letterkenny-Dungloe. In addition, the capacity of the existing trunk cable serving Carrickmacross was expanded by fitting carrier equipment. The cables serving Ennis, Killarney, Listowel and a number of other places will be increased by similar means.

Work on a Waterford-Dungarvan cable scheme and on the Athlone-Castlerea - Claremorris - Castlebar-Ballina co-axial cable scheme is in progress. Some circuits from the latter cable are expected this summer.

Work on the installation of radio links connecting Dublin and Portlaoise, Dublin and Cork, and Portlaoise and Athlone is in hands. Work on the radio link which will provide additional circuits to Belfast and to Great Britain is also well advanced and will, it is expected, be in service towards the end of the year. Each of these links has a capacity of 960 telephone circuits.

It will be clear from what I have said that a considerable expansion of the basic telephone network has been and is taking place. To those who are impatient at the rate of progress, I can only say that nobody is more impatient than I am that we are not moving faster. As I have explained before, however, major installations take several years to complete from the initial stages. Long term planning is essential; and this applies not only to plant and equipment but to sites, buildings, staff and all those elements which go to make up a highly integrated service. I refer to some of these under other headings. Here I shall only add that we are looking at all facets of the service to see how improvements in organisation, co-ordination, co-opera-tion and everything else that contributes to higher productivity, more rapid progress and better service can be best achieved. To supplement our own efforts towards this end we have engaged consultants on certain aspects of the work. I shall return to these in more detail later.

At the end of March, 1967 a Weather Service for the Dublin area was brought into operation. I am pleased to report that the service has been a great success—over a half million calls were made in 1968.

An automatic time service is also proposed. A contract has already been placed for the "speaking clock" equipment. It is expected that the service will commence later this year.

For some time past the question of having a separate Classified Directory similar to those issued by many other administrations had been under consideration and I decided that one should be issued annually in future. This directory will contain the entries of all business subscribers classified by trade or profession and will have a high advertising content. It will be a useful service to our subscribers and will also be of considerable value to the business community. The contract for the production of the directory has been placed and the first edition should be in the hands of subscribers in May next.

So much for the Estimate, so far as it relates to telephones, for the current financial year. The Telephone Capital Bill, 1968, has already received a First Reading. With the permission of the House I propose that the discussion on the Second Stage take place in conjunction with the debate on this Estimate. If that is agreed, I think this is the most appropriate time— before I pass on to other services—to explain the purpose and provisions of the Bill.

This Bill is the eleventh Telephone Capital Bill to come before Dáil Éireann since the transfer of services in 1922 and the sixth since the War. Its purpose is, briefly, to authorise the Minister for Finance to advance moneys, up to a limit of £50 million, for continued development of the telephone service. The advances will be made as required over the next five years approximately.

Expenditure on the telephone service falls under two main heads. Ordinary day-to-day operation and maintenance are paid for out of moneys voted annually by the Oireachtas under the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Extension and development, on the other hand, are covered by funds provided under Telephone Capital Acts.

These Acts empower the Minister for Finance to issue out of the Central Fund sums for development of the telephone service. The issues are made on foot of annual Capital Works Estimates approved by the Minister for Finance. The Acts also authorise the Minister for Finance to borrow in order to meet or repay the issues from the Central Fund. The moneys required for repayment of the sums borrowed are provided annually under subhead G of the Post Office Vote.

The Telephone Capital Act, 1963, passed in December, 1963, authorised the Minister for Finance to issue a total of £30 million which it was estimated would be spent on telephone development in the following five years. There had been on hands at 1st April, 1963, a balance of £2,555,000 from previous legislation. Expenditure during the five years ended 31st March last amounted to £28,897,000 leaving a balance of £3,658,000. This balance is insufficient to cover the estimated requirements for the current financial year.

The amount of £28.9 million approximately was spent in the last five financial years as to £13.9 million for subscribers' lines and installations, £7.1 million for exchanges, £6 million for trunk routes and the balance on buildings, stockholdings and investment in communication satellites. During this period 76,000 new subscribers' lines were connected to the system, 209,000 miles of new trunk circuits were added and 479 kiosks were erected. Over 190 important trunk schemes—underground or overhead cables or radio links—were completed. These included Waterford - Clonmel, Carlow - Athy-Portlaoise, Dublin - Wicklow - Arklow, Waterford-Wexford-Enniscorthy, Lim-erick-Athlone-Galway and Limerick-Tralee-Killarney. Two hundred and twenty manual telephone exchanges were converted to automatic working and the capacity of existing automatic exchanges was increased by 54,000 terminations.

When my predecessor was introducing the last Telephone Capital Bill in 1963 he emphasised that the main effort would be concentrated on improving the quality of the service to existing users at the expense of delaying connections of new telephones and running up the waiting list. This policy was followed, but from 1965-66 on when the trunk capacity of the system had been greatly enlarged it was possible to devote more engineering effort to providing service for new applicants and the waiting list was substantially reduced.

Before going on to describe in some detail how the £50 million capital will be expended in the next five years, I should like to make some general observations.

At present we are entering on a period which I am convinced will be one of great opportunity as well as of challenge for development of the telephone service, to the immense benefit of the whole community. A first-class telephone service is today essential to industrial and commercial progress because efficiency and competitiveness depend more and more on reliable and rapid communications. The telephone is at the nerve-centre of the nation's economic life. Socially also, its value is high contributing so much as it does to the improvement of the general standard of living. In this country we are at a comparatively early stage of telephone development and I am convinced that with rising living standards and the growth of industry and business there are boundless opportunities for rapid expansion. But this expansion can be brought about only by a succession of planned development programmes adequately financed.

As has often been said before, but is still perhaps not fully appreciated, major telephone development plans take five years to mature in working equipment. Sometimes where new sites and buildings are needed the time interval is even longer. It is clearly impossible to develop the service adequately unless there is a firm assurance that capital moneys to meet forward commitments will be available. "Stop-go" conditions of which there has been some unfortunate experience on occasions in the past are an impossible handicap to development. I am fully confident that they will not be permitted to recur and that the sum of £50 million which I am asking for in this Bill will be made available year by year as required.

The amount provided for in the Bill now before you represents our estimate of the cost of the works programme which it is hoped to carry out in the next five years or so. This programme can be considered under the following main heads:

Connection of new subscribers' lines,

New exchanges and extensions,

Trunk system,

Exchange buildings,

Miscellaneous developments.

Provision is being made for a net increase of about 115,000 subscribers' lines representing a growth rate of 9.4 per cent per annum as compared with 7 per cent in the 1963-1968 period. This connection programme will entail extensive cabling in all built-up areas sufficient to cater for these demands and to cater for more rapid growth after 1973.

Four new automatic exchanges will be opened in the Dublin area and one in Limerick. A new trunk exchange will be brought into full service in Dublin and another in Cork. A new international exchange will also be provided in Dublin to cater for our foreign traffic which, except for that with the United States, has hitherto been handled by the London International Exchange. At present some 83 per cent of subscribers have connection to automatic exchanges; it is essential under modern conditions that this percentage be raised as rapidly as possible. Plans are far advanced in some instances and in preparation in others with this object in view. It is hoped to convert exchanges with over 100 subscribers (and a very great number with fewer) to automatic working in the next five year period. In all it is hoped to convert some 300 exchanges in the next five year period including the larger exchanges at Wexford, Killarney, Clonmel, Castlebar, Ballina and Monaghan. Along with this it is planned to increase the capacity of all existing automatic exchanges and to raise the spare capacity to a level adequate to provide for further expansion and prevent delays in connecting new subscribers' lines where demand grows suddenly.

I have already referred in discussing the Estimate for the current year to some major trunk cabling and radio links on which work is in progress at present. Further extensive trunk circuiting schemes will be needed throughout the country to keep ahead of the growth of traffic estimated to rise at 15 per cent per annum and to provide the extra circuits needed under automatic conditions. Some of the principal schemes planned for the next few years in addition to those I have mentioned are: Athlone-Ballinasloe-Loughrea-Galway, Kilkenny-Castle-comer-Freshford, Cork-Cobh, Water-ford-Clonmel-Limerick, Bantry-Glen-garriff, Limerick-Shannon-Ennis. Substantial amounts of additional equipment will also be provided at various centres to switch dialled calls throughout the network. The cost of the buildings required for exchanges and other equipment is estimated at £2.5 million.

It is planned to introduce subscriber trunk dialling to London and Belfast in about 12 months time when additional circuits will have become available from the new cross-channel radio link. The way will also be paved for extension of subscriber trunk dialling to other places in Britain and in Continental Europe.

The provision of the trunk dialling facility for coin-box telephones is desirable both for its usefulness to the public and to reduce operating costs. It is planned to introduce this new type of coin-box early in 1971 when the changeover to decimal currency occurs.

A further improvement development under study is the transmission of computer data over telephone lines. Such facilities are already provided on a limited scale but with increasing use of computers this service is expected to grow. Although the capital/revenue effects will be small the contribution to business efficiency and cost cutting will be worthwhile.

Some mobile exchanges will be purchased to give short-term relief in some instances and to be available as reserves in the event of emergencies, such as destruction of an exchange by fire. It is expected to provide some 500 kiosks in the next five years.

Over the past five years the work force of skilled and semi-skilled technicians required for large scale expansion has been built up and more are in training. Moreover, industrial consultants have been employed for a period of 18 months from whose recommendations it is hoped to secure a substantial increase in productivity by use of more mechanical aids and better organisation. Professional engineers have not become available in as large numbers as would be desired but there are grounds for hoping that this difficulty may be surmounted.

I should like now to say a word about the financial position of the telephone service. Apart from the direct contribution the service makes to economic progress it is a sound commercial proposition. The return on capital in recent years has been: 1963-64, 6.6 per cent; 1964-65, 7.1 per cent; 1965-66, 7.5 per cent; 1966-67, 6.3 per cent; 1967-68, 7.3 per cent.

If the service were allowed to reinvest its surplus and depreciation provision it would be able to finance about 40 per cent of its capital requirements from its own resources. Allowing for a modest profit averaging, say, £1/2 million per annum, depreciation plus profit would supply about £22 million of the £50 million capital required for the next five year programme. In effect, therefore, the Exchequer will be called upon to provide only about £5.5 million net, per annum, and interest will, of course, be paid on all sums invested by the Exchequer in the service.

Not merely, then, is an adequate communications system an essential requirement of the community but it is one that can be provided with the expenditure of comparatively small capital sums which will be fully remunerated. The moneys to be provided under this Bill will enable the service to be continuously improved, to make a modest profit for the taxpayer and to give employment to some hundreds of extra skilled and semi-skilled men as well as to many engineering graduates. I recommend the Bill to the House for approval.

Deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank in 1967 amounted to £25.5 million and withdrawals to £23.6 million. The net increase in deposits was £1.9 million as compared with a net reduction of £2 million in 1966. The improvement was no doubt due to the increase in the rate of interest from 2½ per cent to 3½ per cent payable from 1st January, 1967. In 1968, deposits amounted to £23.9 million and withdrawals to £25.8 million. The disimprovement in the position indicated by these figures occurred during the first nine months. This could have been due to some extent, to the fact that during that period the commercial banks were paying 4½ per cent interest on deposits as against the Savings Bank rate of 3½ per cent. When the commercial banks rate was reduced to 3½ per cent on 2nd October, 1968, Savings Bank business improved. At 31st December, 1968, the total balance due to depositors, including some £4 million interest, was £118.3 million as compared with £116.3 million at the end of the previous year, an increase of £2 million.

The increase in the Post Office Savings Bank rate of interest to 4 per cent as from 1st January, 1969, coupled with the improved withdrawal facilities —the amount withdrawable on demand was raised from £10 to £30 and that by telegraph from £25 to £100 — are expected to improve further the performance of the Savings Bank.

In 1967, deposits in the Trustee Savings Banks exceeded withdrawals by £0.5 million. In 1968 withdrawals from their ordinary accounts exceeded deposits by £1.3 million but this was no doubt due to the transfer of funds to their new 6½ per cent investment accounts. Net deposits in these accounts, which are in existence only since 21st November, 1968, had reached £1.7 million by the end of the year. The total amount, including interest, to the credit of the Trustee Savings Banks at 31st December, 1968, was £22.5 million, an increase of £1.3 million over the previous year.

Sales of Savings Certificates for 1967 amounted to £8.2 million, and repayments, including interest, amounted to £6.1 million. The corresponding figures for 1968 were £6.7 million and £6.1 million respectively. The principal invested at the end of 1968 was £47 million, as compared with £45.1 million at the end of 1967 and £41.6 million at the end of 1966.

The decline in sales of Savings Certificates from the peak figure of £11.9 million in 1966, during which the present Seventh Issue was launched, follows the normal pattern. In spite of the falling off, sales for 1968 were higher than in any year prior to 1966.

The new 6½ per cent Investment Bonds were introduced on 1st January, 1969. Purchases during the first month amounted to £1.8 million. There has been an appreciable outflow of funds from the Post Office Savings Bank and Savings Certificates into Investment Bonds. Moreover, this new savings medium has probably attracted money which would otherwise have gone into the older securities. It is too soon to make any assessment of the amounts involved in this diversion of funds but it appears that the greater part of the intake of Investment Bonds is new savings.

A new 2s Saving Stamp was introduced on 1st August, 1968. A new design for the older 6d Savings Stamp has been adopted and is expected to appear about Easter. These stamps are largely used as the basis of savings schemes in National and Vocational Schools, managed voluntarily by teachers, under the auspices of the National Savings Committee. I should like to take this opportunity to record my appreciation, and that of the Minister for Finance, of the excellent work being done by the National Savings Committee in promoting national savings. I should like to acknowledge, too, the valuable contribution made by teachers and all other voluntary workers in the savings movement.

In 1967 money orders valued at £34.4 million were issued as compared with £47.8 million in 1966 when money order business was abnormally high owing to the bank strike. The value of orders issued last year was much the same as in 1967.

The value of postal orders issued in 1966 was £8.8 million. This dropped to £8.6 million in 1967 but increased again to £8.9 million in 1968.

Agency service payments made by the post office, mainly on behalf of the Department of Social Welfare, increased from £47.6 million in 1966 to £50 million in 1967 and to £55 million in 1968. Post offices again took part in the half-yearly sales of Prize Bonds, handling about 30 per cent of the total amount collected.

In 1967 new automatic telephone exchange buildings were erected at Castleblayney, Swords (Co. Dublin), Gorey, Skibbereen and at 63 rural centres. Extensions to the exchange buildings at Dennehy's Cross (Cork) and Walkinstown (Dublin) and to the Portlaoise co-axial Repeater Station were completed. Additional office accommodation was provided at the Distillery Road (Dublin) Engineering Depot and at Cork. Improvement works were carried out at Blackrock (Co. Dublin) and Westport Post Offices. The new Central Sorting Office building at Sheriff Street, Dublin, was fully equipped and occupied.

Works completed in 1968 included a new head post office and engineering centre at Carlow; new telephone exchange buildings at Lucan (Co. Dublin), Rochestown Avenue (Dún Laoghaire), Cahirciveen, Castlerea, Dungarvan, Fermoy, Gort, Killarney, Muinebheag and Skibbereen; 58 exchange buildings at rural centres; extensions to Wexford and Skerries (Co. Dublin) telephone exchanges and improvements at Enniscorthy, Kinsale, Tuam and Tullamore Post Offices.

Works in progress include the construction of extensive new warehouses at St. John's Road Stores Depot; new post office premises, including telephone exchange and area engineering depot, at Claremorris and Macroom; new telephone exchange and area engineering depot at Newcastlewest; improvements at Tipperary Post Office and new telephone exchange buildings at Ballina, Tullow and at some 40 rural centres.

Special attention has been given to the improvement of facilities for staff training. Premises were acquired at Sligo for a further engineering training centre and additional accommodation for the training of engineering and other staffs is being provided in Dublin.

The number of staff provided for in the Estimate is 19,108, an increase of 228 on the figure for 1967/68. This increase is mainly attributable to the expansion of the telephone service.

An adequate force of professionally qualified engineers is essential for the planning and supervision of the telephone development programme and for ensuring that the ever-growing system is properly maintained. We have not, because of the general shortage of engineers, as yet got as many as we need, but we are making good progress. We are recruiting, both by way of Civil Service Commission competitions and directly, as many qualified engineers as we can get. The various university faculties are co-operating with us in meeting our needs. In addition, we are recruiting engineers-to-be by way of scholarship schemes. We are already operating for some time past two scholarship schemes, one for non-professional grades in the Department and the second for Leaving Certificate holders. This year a third scheme is being introduced for students who have successfully completed two years or more of an appropriate engineering or scientific course. These scholarships will entitle the students to receive pay during their studies and their fees will be paid by the Department. I am confident that these schemes will be of definite assistance in securing more engineers for the Department in the future.

We also need an adequate force of skilled technicians for the practical work on both telephone development and maintenance. This force, which is already quite large, is being built up by way of the Department's scheme for technician trainees. There are some 350 young men in training at present, about a hundred of whom were recruited in 1967 and 85 in 1968. In 1964, the intake under this scheme was expanded substantially, and the benefits are beginning to be felt. Early in 1968 some 70 trainees recruited in 1964 became available for technician work.

During 1967 a number of additional welfare officers were appointed, and three more were appointed during 1968.

The Post Office is one of the biggest employers in the country, its staff representing about 1.7 per cent of the total working population. Owing to the character of its services, it is largely a labour-intensive organisation and one of its main objectives is to make the best use of its manpower. Over the years there has, in fact, been a determined and sustained drive by the Department to effect improvements and economies by more extensive use of mechanical aids and efficient methods. Typical of these efforts are the gradual motorisation of postal deliveries and collections and the automatisation of the telephone service by the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic working.

To supplement the work of ten fulltime departmental organisation and methods staff, outside experts have been called in on various problems. As I mentioned last year, a firm of consultants was commissioned to carry out an extensive review of the organisation, grading and methods of work in the Department's Engineering Branch, and they have now reported on their review. When their various recommendations have been examined and tentative proposals formulated, the staff organisations will be consulted and their co-operation sought. I am hopeful that, in a joint effort, it will be possible to increase productivity substantially. Growth in productivity resulting from the better utilisation of manpower will result in greater rewards for the staff both financially and in terms of job satisfaction. Since the telecommunications services are expanding rapidly, the staff need have no fears that any redundancy will follow the adoption of better methods and better organisation of work. I feel confident, therefore, that the staff will welcome changes, the object of which is to raise productivity.

Automatic data processing is another field in which consultants have been called upon to assist. Automatic data processing has been used in telephone accounting and Savings Bank work for some years past. Consultants were engaged some time ago to assist in an examination of the economics of extending its use, including computerisation, in various branches of the Department's activities. Tenders for the supply of a computer system have been received and are being examined at present. I should, perhaps, mention that, as the delivery of computers and the associated ancillary equipment takes time, and, as there will be a very large volume of preparatory systems analysis and programming work to be done, the change-over to computer working in any part of the Department's operations will not occur for some considerable time.

The Department also benefits from its participation in the activities of the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunications Union. These organisations, in addition to their co-ordinating and regulatory functions, give the Department access to information on new techniques and equipment, to the advice of experts, and to the experience and experiments of other postal and telecommunications administrations.

Finally, various aspects of the Department came under examination as part of the general examination of the higher organisation of the Civil Service that is being made by a group appointed by the Minister for Finance.

Relations between the staff and the Department have continued to be good and this is borne out by the fact that the Department's services have been operated efficiently and to the satisfaction of the public generally. The number of complaints from the public in proportion to the volume, variety and complexities of the Department's work is and has been extremely small. It is worth recalling that the greater part of the Department's work has to be performed under pressure and much of it at unsocial hours.

While there is almost continuous consultation between the Departmental and staff representatives at various levels on a variety of matters, the main channel of negotiation on pay and conditions between the unions representing the staff and the Department is the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme, agreed between the Minister for Finance and the organisations representing the great majority of civil servants, including those in the Post Office. Through it the staff have over the last couple of years secured higher pay and increased allowances, reductions in the length of the working week, longer annual holidays, and quite a number of other benefits. Major pay agreements have been negotiated over the past few months with most of the Post Office grades arising out of the 11th wage round. It is mainly because of the cumulative effect of the increased costs arising from these various settlements or awards that charges for various services have had to be increased.

There were, however, regrettably some disturbances in the Department's normally good relations with the staff and in the devoted service the staff give to the public.

A new breakaway organisation, calling itself the Post Office Officials' Association, and claiming to represent a number of grades, already catered for by existing staff organisations, called a strike in February, 1968, to compel the Department to negotiate with it on its own terms and in defiance of the wishes of the other staff organisations. The very limited support the strike received from the staff indicated very clearly the minority nature of the new organisation. The strike caused unnecessary inconvenience to the public mainly as a result of the support given it by the Sub-Postmasters' Union, a body not affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. The strike naturally left in its wake some rancour and bitterness among the staff, and the breakaway Association mounted a few local agitations designed to interfere with the service to the public and to embarrass the other staff organisations, but without much success. There are two peaceful courses, at least, open to the Association, either to seek to join in the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme with the rest of the Civil Service or to avail itself of an offer of the services of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to help resolve any difficulties its members may have with their former unions.

In August last a group of postal sorters in Dublin imposed an unofficial ban on overtime in connection with a pay claim being dealt with under the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme. The initial cause of the dissatisfaction was apparently a decision of their union's annual conference about the nature of the claim to be made. The action was abandoned after a fortnight but not, regrettably, before it had caused delay to mails, with consequent inconvenience to the public.

As I mentioned earlier, such interference with the service to the public is contrary to the great tradition of the Post Office staff. Most Post Office workers are aware that in addition to their responsibilities as civil servants they are engaged in a vital communications industry in monopoly conditions and any interruption of its services can have far-reaching consequences, affecting industry, trade and the public generally. They know that they are in permanent pensionable employment, enjoying good pay and other favourable conditions of employment, including promotion prospects, and that they are sheltered from the effects of industrial action elsewhere, unlike many other workers; protective notices have never been issued in the Post Office. There are orderly means available to them through which they can process any claims and grievances they may have. In matters of pay and conditions, an arbitration board is available if agreement cannot be reached in negotiation. On my side, I recognise that it is essential to good staff relations that there should be effective negotiation machinery, sound grievance procedures and adequate communications. There have been discussions between the various civil service staff associations and the Ministers for Finance and Labour on desirable changes in the existing negotiation machinery for the Civil Service generally. Discussions were also opened during the year at the Post Office Departmental Council to examine whether changes are desirable in the existing communications systems and grievance procedures.

The commercial accounts for 1967-68 have been laid on the table of the House. A summary of the results for the five preceding years is given in Appendix C to the Estimate.

As Deputies are aware, the commercial accounts present the position of the Department as a trading concern. They are compiled in accordance with commercial practice to show the expenditure incurred and the income earned during the year of account, such charges as interest and depreciation being included in the expenditure. A balance sheet and statement of assets give details of the Department's very large capital investments, mainly in telephone plant. The accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

It is on the basis of these accounts that we determine financial policy, including the fixing of charges. The basic principle of that policy is that the Post Office should pay its way, taking one year with another. That means that the Department must earn a surplus in good years to meet the losses in bad years and to provide a reserve against contingencies. If the Post Office does not pay its way, the loss has to be made good by taxpayers generally.

There was an overall loss on the Department's services in 1967/68 of £467,000 following a loss of £430,000 in the previous year. In each of these years there was a deficit on the postal and telegraph services and a surplus on the telephone side.

About 60 per cent of the Department's expenditure is on wages, salaries and related payments for superannuation, etc. Any general upward trend in staff costs therefore quickly affects the Department's financial position. Staff claims cost the Department £1,000,000 in 1966/67, and £340,000 in 1967/68. The current round of pay increases will cost £1.8 million in 1968/69. Increased prices, higher payments to foreign administrations and higher interest and depreciation charges are other important cost factors which have contributed to the losses mentioned. Since higher staff costs are the biggest contributing factor, I should like to say at this point that the improvements in pay and conditions obtained by Post Office staffs have been secured under conciliation and arbitration machinery which operates largely on the basis of comparisons with pay and conditions outside the Post Office. I consider it just and fair that settlements arrived at in this way should be implemented in full. I do not think any Deputy will dissent from the view that Post Office employees should receive a reasonable return for their services. In accepting this, we must also accept that, in so far as pay increases or other increases cannot be met from increased business or from higher productivity, they must inevitably—in the Post Office as elsewhere—result in higher prices.

Taking into account the increased Post Office charges operative from 1st January, 1969, it is expected that the deficit—the third in a row—will be about £750,000 in the current financial year. If the charges had not been increased, it is estimated that a further deficit—of the order of £3 million— would be incurred next year.

The Post Office has always been a cost-conscious organisation; and it will be clear from what I have already said in reporting upon the various services that a considerable programme of modernisation and improvements, including measures to improve productivity generally, is being pushed ahead vigorously. But it is quite certain that the amount in question could not be found by economies, greater efficiency or increased business.

It has been settled policy that the Post Office should pay its way and there was no reason for any departure from that policy. In short, therefore, there was no alternative to raising charges.

The changes in rates have already been published, but there are some general observations I wish to make on them.

On the postal side, staff and related costs constitute some 77 per cent of total expenditure. Postal business grows very slowly—since 1964 it has grown by about 7 per cent to 8 per cent. The nature of the mails, which consist of a huge volume of low-priced items requiring individual handling at various stages, limits the opportunities for mechanisation and for increasing the productivity of the large labour force employed. Moreover, it is necessary to provide extra postmen, delivery offices, etc., in new housing estates in the cities and towns but the decline in population elsewhere does not enable proportionate reductions in staff or facilities to be made. In many rural areas wage costs alone on rural delivery have been well over 1/- per item.

The postal increases were designed to secure maximum revenue without raising the minimum letter rate above 6d. Even without allowing for some reduction in postings, which is usual immediately following rate increases, the yield from the revised rates will not fully cover estimated expenditure. To cover it and provide a margin for contingencies would require a 7d letter rate. It is necessary therefore to consider further what changes and economies can be made to reduce expenditure. The difficulty here is that only major changes in the service, changes of a kind which would reduce the labour-content substantially, would be effective in reducing costs significantly. Whether changes of this kind, for instance, reduced frequencies of delivery, roadside and garden-gate letter-boxes (which are common in the USA, Sweden and other highly-developed countries) would be generally acceptable here is not at all certain but if we wish to retain the traditional standards we must be prepared to pay the costs involved. While, overall, postal charges have not risen to the same extent as staff costs, it is clear that if postal pay rates continue to rise —as they have done—much faster than postal traffic, further adjustment of postage rates will be unavoidable.

The telegraph service has never paid its way. We face a continuing loss on this service and the increased rates are intended to keep the loss within reasonable limits. There has, however, been no increase in Telex rentals or call charges. I have already referred to the reduction in Telex rentals granted late in 1967.

Although telephone business has been growing rapidly, telephone costs —particularly staff costs, interest on capital and provision for depreciation —have also been rising steeply. In order to ensure the continued profitability of the services and an adequate return on capital, increases in telephone charges were unavoidable.

The higher charges are intended to yield a return on net telephone assets of approximately 9 per cent before charging interest. Having regard to the heavy investment in the service and current high interest rates, this is not an unreasonable target.

The increases in rentals, in the connection fee for new lines and in local call fees are needed to cover higher costs in providing subscribers' lines and local plant. The average cost of providing a subscriber's line is now estimated at over £150. The interest charge on this alone is over £11 a year at current rates leaving a small margin for maintenance costs and depreciation. The connection fee as revised is still substantially below what is charged in many other administrations.

An increase in local call fees could be avoided only by increasing trunk fees. It was considered undesirable to increase trunk charges because one of the best ways of encouraging the telephone habit is to keep charges for long distance calls down and because improvements in techniques have tended to reduce the costs of providing trunk circuits. On the other hand, local calls are still good value at the revised rates. One can, for instance, make a call from Greystones to Balbriggan, a distance of about 35 miles, at the local rate and most of County Clare is within the local range. Local calls are, moreover, untimed. Ten years ago millions of such calls were charged for as trunk calls at 10d or more per three minutes. The increase from 4d to 6d for local calls from coinboxes is necessary for a number of reasons. The present coinboxes would not take five pennies and new coinboxes capable of taking them would be difficult and costly to procure. On the practical level, the balance of advantage undoubtedly lies in having coinboxes capable of taking 6d pieces. People are much more likely to have a 6d piece rather than five pennies when they need to make a coinbox call.

I have already indicated that I decided not to increase trunk call charges. In fact, some trunk charges have been reduced. I also decided to reduce the effect of the rate increases on applicants for telephones in rural areas by relaxing the requirement in regard to payment of rental in advance for telephone lines serving premises outside one mile from the exchange. Given the situation which I have out-lined, the House will, I am sure, agree that the rate increases were unavoidable.

I should like to conclude my review of the recent past and outline of plans for the immediate future by saying that I am also giving sustained consideration to the long-term future of the Department and of its services. I do not propose to go into detail about this aspect but I should like to assure the House that I and the officers of my Department are giving much thought as to how best the various services can be developed in the long-term, what new services should be introduced to meet the changing needs of the public, how the services can be most efficiently financed, and what staffing arrangements are likely to be required in the future. As I mentioned last year, the status and basic organisation of the Department are under reconsideration. To those questions, and to the many others likely to arise, the answers most effective from the point of view of service to the public, no matter how radical the action required may be, will be sought.

In accordance with practice in previous years I propose to confine my remarks to important developments in the broadcasting services and to matters in which, as Minister, I have a statutory function.

The total amount to be paid to the Broadcasting Authority under Subhead K in respect of net revenue collected in the form of licence fees is estimated at £2,150,000. This includes a carry-over of £110,000 in respect of receipts in excess of the subhead provision for 1967-68. It also includes provision for further growth of receipts in the current financial year.

On the basis that £1 5s of each £5 licence fee is intended for the sound broadcasting service, a sum of £716,500 is being provided for sound broadcasting and £1,433,500 for television. The amount thus allocated to sound broadcasting together with advertising revenue on the radio side, will fall short by some £400,000 of estimated expenditure on that service in 1968-69. This deficit will be made good out of the Authority's general revenue.

When introducing the Estimate for 1967-68 I mentioned that owing to progressively increasing costs the Authority thought it likely that its annual overall surplus would continue to decline and would be converted to a substantial deficit in 1968-69. I am glad to say that the position has turned out to be better than was then anticipated. The Authority's Annual Report for 1968, which has been laid before the House, shows an overall surplus of £371,000 odd in 1967-68 as compared with £105,000 for the previous year. The television service produced a profit of £666,000 which was offset by a deficit of £295,000 on sound broadcasting. The improvement in the general financial position was due partly to the success of the campaign in October, 1967, against holders of unlicensed sets, and partly to an increase in advertising revenue. The Authority point out in their Annual Report that their income whether from licence fees or advertisement sales is directly related to the number of licensed receivers but that the number of receivers must now be expected to level off rapidly. On the other hand, improvements in the quality of programmes and an extension of their scope will inevitably give rise to increasing costs. Moreover, the large and continuing deficit on the sound broadcasting service reduces considerably the resources available to the Authority for financing the capital expenditure necessary for the development of the services. The present licence fees have remained unchanged since 1963.

Relevant figures are: licence fee combined £4 in 1962 as against £5 in 1969, an increase of 25 per cent. In the same period industrial earnings have advanced by an average of 63 per cent and average social insurance payments by 105 per cent. The television licence fee works out at less than a halfpenny per programme hour. In the period during which the present fees have been in operation, despite increases in cost, the output and quality of programmes have been considerably improved and the radio programme has been greatly extended. The Authority state they will not be in a position to meet the commitments involved in their plans for further improvements and contribute to the necessary capital expenditure without a significant increase in the level of licence fees. The Authority have put their case for an increase formally to me and it is at present being considered.

The grant of free receiving licences to certain old age pensioners and others came into operation on 1st July last. The cost is being borne by the Exchequer. In the first six months of the scheme's operation about 19,000 free licences were issued by my Department to eligible persons, that is, 11,000 combined and 8,000 sound licences. About 15,000 of the recipients held licences previously—9,000 combined and 6,000 sound.

There are now approximately 185,000 sound and 395,000 combined licences —that is, 580,000 licences altogether. In fairness to the holders of these licences it is important that unlicensed holders should be detected and it is proposed to take more effective measures towards this end. Within a few months it is hoped to have the most modern kind of detection van in service. New legislation to help with the problem is being prepared. The provisions proposed include heavier fines for licence defaulters and the keeping of records by radio/television dealers and rental companies.

For the past three years the Authority has been financing its capital programme as well as its operating expenditure from its own resources. Last year, 1967-68, RTE's capital expenditure amounted to £500,000 approximately which was incurred mainly on the provision of an additional television outside broadcasting unit, general broadcasting equipment, completion of the Donnybrook television building and the purchase of St. Andrew's School grounds to cater for further growth of the broadcasting services. In the current year RTE will spend about the same amount — again from its own resources—on a number of projects, including the extension of filming and recording facilities, general radio and television equipment and initial expenditure on a new radio centre.

In view of certain correspondence in the Press suggesting extravagance in RTE, I would like to point out that a comparison made in 1967 of costs per hour of programmes in various television services showed that RTE had the lowest cost per hour for television broadcasting. The figures for all-in cost per hour were Britain (BBC) £5,249, Sweden £3,907, Denmark, £2,688, Netherlands £2,423, Norway £1,824 and RTE £1,290. I have naturally urged the Board to maintain this excellent record in the face of rising costs as far as possible.

During the past year I approved a proposal by the Authority to extend the hours of sound broadcasting from 96 to 118 per week so as to enable the Authority to operate the radio service continuously from early morning to midnight. The extended service came into operation on 2nd November in conjunction with a comprehensive revision of sound broadcasting programmes. The changes are intended to cater more fully for the changed pattern of listening brought about by, among other things, the extensive spread of television viewing and the widespread use of transistor radios. Part of the additional cost will be met from extra fees for advertising, which will be mostly in the form of "spots" in programmes provided by the Authority rather than sponsored programmes provided by or on behalf of the advertiser. The initiative taken by the Authority in this regard will, I am confident, be welcomed generally.

Last year I referred to the completion during the previous year of the last two of the five main VHF transmitters. I mentioned that four subsidiary transmitters were to be provided, namely, at Moville, Fanad, Castletown-Berehaven and Cahirciveen. All four will, it is hoped, be brought into operation before the end of this financial year. When the operation is completed VHF reception will be available over 99 per cent of the country.

During the past year I received complaints of unsatisfactory television reception in certain areas. Existing transmitters and transposers give coverage to about 98 per cent of the country. The remaining 2 per cent is made up of small areas which have been the subject of a most detailed survey which has been completed by the Authority. The survey covers the quality of reception in each of 900 communities comprising 20 or more households, the population affected and the capital investment per area or "pocket" which would be necessary to improve the quality of service there. For each "pocket" a per capita capital cost figure is being worked out. As I have said before, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to give completely satisfactory coverage in all areas without incurring prohibitive expenditure. I understand that the selection of areas where extra transposers will be provided should be completed shortly.

That brings me to the matter of colour television about which I was asked a few questions in this House— the most recent one being in June last. I pointed to the more pressing needs of the broadcasting service which must be looked at before there can be any question of introducing colour television. It is unlikely that the Authority will be in a position to start a colour television service for some years. The engineering staff concerned are, however, keeping closely in touch with technical developments in this field.

The Broadcasting (Offences) Act, 1968, which is intended to deal with the problem of "pirate" broadcasting stations on ships and structures outside national territories came into operation on 18th October, 1968, and the Council of Europe Agreement on this subject has since been ratified on behalf of the Government.

I have no doubt that every Deputy will have his own views on RTE programmes, particularly those on television. For my own part the Authority is to be congratulated on many excellent programmes, both sound and television, broadcast since the last Estimate was taken. There were, of course, some in which I found cause for criticism. On occasion I have passed on my views—favourable or unfavourable—to the Authority for consideration. I would recommend Deputies and others to do likewise. I am sure that anything Deputies may have to say on programmes will carefully be considered by the Authority, every member of which recognises that criticism and controversy are not only inseparable from broadcasting but indeed essential to it. It is evident from viewing foreign television and from a study of intelligent debate on the effects of TV on the public mind that the establishment is always on the defensive. It is essential, therefore, that in all current affairs discussions there should be adequate background briefing and balanced discussion, otherwise such discussions become merely shock creating and in relation to what is practicable contribute little to the ultimate solution that must be found.

One aspect on which I consider RTE to have earned special commendation is the very marked development that has been undertaken in the realm of programmes of the public service type. This includes the Telefís Scoile series, for which I approved an extension of programme time to the present total of 5½ hours weekly. The current series is planned to comprise 246 programmes aimed at secondary schools and covering a wide range of subjects selected in consultation with the Department of Education, which bears the costs involved. Other public service programmes, with which Deputies are no doubt more familiar because they are shown during the evening hours, are the farming features such as "On the Land" and "Mart and Market"; "Radharc"; "Work" and the various documentaries on the Continent.

In connection with programmes on current affairs and news bulletins, I have on a number of occasions indicated some objectives which I consider should be aimed at. My observations in replying to the debate on the last Estimate and speeches made since then, the most recent of which was in Seanad Éireann on 15th January, constitute what seems to me to be a constructive policy in this regard. News programmes should include a high proportion of constructive and praiseworthy developments and advancement in the national and international sphere and should inculcate love of our cultural heritage. Achievements should not be glossed over or taken for granted because, if there are not newspaper or broadcast reports about progress, the tendency is to assume that no progress is in fact being made. How many people in a hundred thousand can recount any details of solid development made in Africa or Asia? The world is living in a constant state of shock because of sensational reporting.

If current affairs programmes are designed to make viewers think constructively on social, economic and moral problems, this helps to build bridges between groups in the community holding widely different viewpoints, and avoids the creation of abysses between different groups. There is one essential difference between this country and many abroad. The vast majority of the people subscribe to the Christian faith. The most easy path to sensational shock-creating broadcasting is to cast doubt on every form of philosophy which embraces fundamental truths based on revealed religion.

In this connection I feel bound to state that I have been receiving criticism of RTE Current Affairs programmes from many people of widely different political and social view-points. This criticism can be expressed in the following way. A national broadcasting service should not follow the prevailing trend of stirring up protest in such a way as to emphasise all the weaknesses of human nature and defects in the social and economic structure leaving not an impression of constructive policies to be pursued but a cynical and destructive impact on the viewer and listener. I wish to make it clear that whatever be the practice in other countries the standards of RTE in encouraging constructive thinking and positive solutions for problems must be of the highest order. If radical solutions are advocated for problems they must be examined both in regard to the current policies adopted by any institution and in regard to financial conditions where these apply.

There are countries far wealthier than ours living under conditions of high taxation and of State and local authority intervention where there are unsolved problems. There are countries where there is among young people a pervasive unrest whose principal cause is the absence of any philosophy to replace religious doctrine. Having regard to the majority view in this country on such matters, I will not have RTE used to create a murky cynical atmosphere in regard to what, ultimately, are problems due to inadequacies in character in people as a whole.

I understand also that the Authority has taken steps to modify the recent trend in interviewing persons of all political and social opinions in a manner which has aroused the strongest criticism.

The Authority, from my discussions with them, fully understand the responsibility of RTE in encouraging constructive discussion on controversial matters and I believe that they will continue to exercise control where this is required. I am sure that RTE realises that the greatest care must be exercised in holding popular discussions on moral and religious questions to ensure that there are commentators present who can present the views of the great majority of our people.

In striving to achieve these aims, I have the feeling that we in Ireland suffer from one great handicap. Sometimes in discussion a lack of courage to speak out is evident among the more moderate section of the population, and their failure to express their views forcibly often creates difficulties for such bodies as RTE. There is no problem in this country that cannot be tackled by discussions of a creative character and subsequent action taken in the private or public sector. It is extremely important to give full weight to the financial aspect of changes in economic and social policies.

Another difficulty which arises especially in a small country like ours where everyone knows everyone else, is in achieving balance within a very large category of programmes. And, of course, as in common with all other countries we have problems to solve and priorities to determine, the existing establishments will always be on the defensive in some respect or another. There will always be differences of opinion and controversy, too, on what constitutes balance, and in this respect RTE faces the problem of all broadcasting organisations; they must choose between controversy and dullness.

I would like, in conclusion, to pay tribute to the former Director-General of Radio Telefís Éireann, Mr. Kevin C. McCourt, who relinquished the post on 31st March last, and to welcome his successor, Mr. Thomas P. Hardiman, whose appointment I was most happy to approve. I am sure I speak for every member of this House when I wish him well in his new assignment.

Hear, hear.

The Minister has presented his Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and, at the same time, has spoken on the Telephone Capital Bill and it has been most interesting and informative. He has covered an immensely wide field and gave a vast amount of figures. Just before I get down to a detailed discussion of the Estimate for this very wide-embracing Department for which the Minister is responsible I should like to say—and I am sure the Minister would agree with me—it is a pity that the Estimate for the year under review is being taken so late. We are now in the last day or two of February and the financial year which we are reviewing finishes within a month. There is little or nothing this House can do by way of advice or discussion which can alter the Estimates as they are or alter the programme we are dealing with now with eleven twelfths of the year completed. If I enter a protest in that regard I hope it will have some effect on the Government.

I know the programme of work in this House has been overloaded in the past 12 months but, nevertheless, a great deal of the overloading has arisen from the fact that we have had purely political matters pushed on to us. We have had all about the referendum. I do not propose to go into that but I do mention that we should have been dealing with this Estimate last May or June. I am sure the Minister will agree with me on that. The Government as a body should not have left the discussion of so important a matter as the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs so late in the year.

It requires a good deal of discussion to deal thoroughly with Posts and Telegraphs which covers such a wide field. The Minister mentioned that something like 19,000 people are employed by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and that this covers a substantial proportion of the total employment of the country. In that connection—I may refer to this more fully later on—I am glad to see that there is constant co-operation and discussion with the employees in the Post Office and that very complicated machinery has been built up to deal with employment matters generally and with any breakdowns that may occur in communications between the postal authorities and the staff. It is regrettable that we had strikes and threatened strikes but I am glad that the Post Office has, over the years, built up this very fine machinery and I trust that it will be availed of in the future to the extent to which it was always used in the past. The Post Office has a very enviable record in staff and labour relations and I hope that those excellent relations will always continue. I should like to raise one matter that was mentioned to me—the improvement in postal uniforms. The public notices things like that and are proud of the uniforms which the postal men now wear.

A big event in 1968 from the public's point of view was the increase in the Post Office charges. A penny on a letter does not seem a whole lot for a private individual but it represents a 20 per cent increase. For businesses which deal in many thousands of letters and postcards the increases range from 20 per cent on local letters to 33? per cent on postcards, parcels 25 per cent and foreign letters over 25 per cent. That represents a very heavy increase on the business community. The Minister is aware of that and he dealt with it in his speech but, nevertheless, the increased charges will put up the general cost to the community. I think the Minister mentioned a figure of something like 440 million letters handled in this country during 1967. An increase of 20 per cent on all those letters puts the cost up to almost 100 million pennies which is a sizeable burden for the community to bear.

In the course of his speech the Minister mentioned that articles and literature for the blind have been accepted for transmission by post at nominal rates and that in response to representations he will introduce amending legislation to enable this type of postal matter to be transmitted free of postage. That is a very good thing. We on this side of the House welcome this innovation. I do not know how far it follows custom in other countries but certainly it is something which all Irish people will approve of.

It is good to see various events in Irish history commemorated, such as the birth of such famous people as Jonathan Swift and in more modern times that of Countess Markievicz. Those things help to keep Ireland on the international cultural map. They also help to keep our people interested and in touch with the great persons and events of the past. It is a very good thing to see.

I see the telegraph service, as usual, loses money. Perhaps, that is a regrettable thing. I do not blame the Post Office for that. It is apparently a worldwide tendency and I suppose people tend—a sign of rising standards of living—to use the telephone a great deal more. The telex service also has increased, and the Minister mentioned something like gentex but I do not know exactly what that is. The fact that the telex service is increasing is a sign of the increased use which our industries and trade generally are making of the postal service and the use we are making of modern communications.

At this point—although I shall probably come back to it later—I should like to refer to what I see as the wind of change in the Post Office. One can feel that changes for the good are taking place and that this service is coming forward to take its place in the modern world in which we live and is taking its place as a real assistant to industry, not just a service which, when one picks up the telephone, causes increasing frustration from the lack of contact. That is changing, and it is good to see that the Post Office is very well aware of the necessity for that.

The Minister gave details of the expansion of the telephone service. I am glad to see that in the year ended 31st March, 1968, 19,000 subscribers were connected as compared with 15,000 the previous year. The Minister stated in May last year that the Dublin waiting list stood at the figure of 2,638 and that 7,000 new phones had been installed. The Post Office deserves praise for that. As a Deputy of this House, I would be failing in my duty if I did not hand out some bouquets for this improvement. In doing so, I think I am following a line of precedents on this side of the House. We believe in making representations, in pushing forward as a vigilant Opposition and urging on the Minister concerned the necessity for improvements in his Department. Over a number of years we have been urging the Minister to increase the telephone accommodation here in Ireland and have pointed out how necessary it was from a business point of view that modern commercial activity be carried on efficiently with first-class telephone and telegraph communication and all that goes with that. I will not say that it was completely as a result of our representations that this has been done, but at any rate a vigilant Opposition pressing for improvements in service can bring about those very necessary improvements which it continuously seeks. It is a good thing to know that the backlog of telephone subscribers waiting to be connected is being reduced.

In connection with the Telephone Capital Bill I am glad to see that the Minister and the Department are asking for a large sum for the next five years. Somewhere in one of the explanatory memoranda the Minister mentioned that the increased capital moneys for the telephone came from the Post Office Savings Bank. On occasions it is a good thing to borrow money from the Savings Bank for this purpose. Certainly depositors in the bank would find it hard to get a more suitable borrower than their own Government, but I would be afraid that if deposits fell, telephone improvements might suffer through a lack of money due to dependency on the Savings Bank. In other words, if by any chance savings fell there would be an automatic fall in money available for telephone expansion. Therefore, it is well that a big amount is being asked for. Taking a commercial view, I have always held that a forward policy in the Post Office would reap good rewards, rewards which would help industry, business and the social life of our community. Being a rural community, it is important that people living on isolated farms should be able easily, quickly, and cheaply to communicate with one another. It is something which would help to take away some of the alleged dullness of rural life. It is, therefore, good to see a forward policy in connection with the borrowing of money for telephone expansion. In the long run it is something from which the community benefits greatly, and I do welcome the Telephone Capital Bill.

The Minister has also mentioned the quality of subscriber service and the analysis which this undergoes from time to time in the Department. The public will welcome that statement, because there is nothing as frustrating as bad quality service. This is tied up with the extension of exchanges and other technical details which I, or, in fact, anybody in this House, would be incapable of going into. But I know that on occasion in the case of a telephone about which I know a great deal, my own telephone, it gave a very bad service for years and people were constantly complaining that when they dialled the number the telephone was always engaged. We knew in fact it was not engaged at all. Engineers came out and looked at it and so on but nothing ever happened. One man said to me: "Nothing will happen because you are routed through the Rathmines exchange and until they improve that exchange you will continue to get a bad service." I do not know just how absolutely accurate that was. I think it was accurate because the service did not improve for a long time. It has now improved. I do not now get any complaints that the telephone is engaged. When we got those complaints previously we knew in fact there was nobody on the line at all.

Another thing which used to happen was that people would say: "We rang you up but nobody answered the phone." We did make inquiries and found that on the particular day the house was occupied, no music was playing, there was no noise and the telephone bell had not sounded. I mention that not to draw attention to what was a trivial matter in just one case but to show that there is need for behind the scenes extension, that something should be done here to give the public the service they need. I am glad to see that that standard is improving.

Every Deputy receives complaints and it is very hard for a Deputy to assess the actual value of a complaint. Sometimes people are impatient and they count the delays longer than they were in actual fact. However, I have heard complaints about cross-channel services, bad lines and delays. Again I would say that it is not my own personal experience. Delays will inevitably occur in the best system so I am glad to hear, and the ordinary public will be glad to hear, that there is this continual self-examination going on inside the Post Office. It is something that is always necessary and especially necessary in a Government Department. I would like to say at this point that I think the Minister has a very open mind in that respect. I believe if such urges are necessary that he urges on his Department the necessity for self-examination.

The classified directory has been referred to and that is something which is welcomed by the commercial and business community. In connection with the directory I would like again to revert to something I have referred to before. I do not know whether I am a particularly stupid person but I always find the explanatory pages at the beginning of the directory difficult to follow. I wonder do other people find it difficult? It would be worth the Department's while getting that matter examined from the point of view of what is the first object of a person who turns to those pages. You assume that the person is not looking up the weather, that it is not just a case of knowing in regard to Murphy or Smith that you then look up under M and S and get it; if you want to dial the fire brigade or the police everybody probably knows the number is 999. That is made out pretty clearly but I would like to see it analysed and then the layout followed as it would be in a commercial undertaking where somebody would say: "An individual is picking up this booklet of ours which is showing our wares. What are the problems confronting the individual when he opens this book?" I find that rather confusing and I imagine other people also find it confusing. I would like the Post Office to give that matter very close examination from the point of view of catering for the most backward boy or a girl in the class.

I mentioned the fact that I welcomed the 11th Telephone Capital Bill to come before Dáil Éireann. I know that there have been improvements in the co-axial cables and so on through rural areas as part of the policy which we have followed urging the Minister to extend all the facilities in order to make the use of the telephone as widespread as possible in Ireland. We are naturally glad to see that is being brought about. The Minister referred to how essential a first-class telephone service is today to industry and to the general commercial efficiency and progress of the country. That is a fact and I trust that that attitude will always prevail in the Post Office.

I would like to say, in that respect, at this point that we in Fine Gael have advocated that the Post Office generally should be separated and made a semi-State body. Part of the reason which lies behind saying that is the lack in the past of any way of coping with the problems of the Post Office in a very modern way. However, as I say, I note a wind of change in that respect. There are people who think that new exchanges and extensions have something to do with trunk calls and so on and that they are matters that lie outside their knowledge for technical reasons. If we do not have new exchanges and extensions we cannot get the service we need. The subscribers cannot get linked up in the way they want and at the speed they would wish. I am very pleased to see the work going on in regard to those exchanges and extensions.

I imagine that computer data on telephone lines is something which is coming in the future although the average person finds it a little beyond his comprehension. However, this is something we are all going to know a lot about in the future and to need increasingly. It is a good thing to see the Post Office are aligning themselves to the necessity for this in the future. Again, I reiterate the necessity for an adequate communication system such as the Minister has stressed. We, on this side of the House, are certainly behind that.

In this Estimate, the Minister refers to savings. I note that the purchase of the new 6½ per cent Investment Bonds which were introduced on the 1st January of this year amounted to £1.8 million. That is a good thing but, at the same time, I should like to mention to the Minister and to the House that one of the effects of having these Investment Bonds is that the Post Office has really gone into the highly competitive field of tapping the small borrower. This is a field in which the banks and other bodies, including the building societies, have been for a long time. One of the inevitable effects of the increase in the Post Office Investment Bonds is a diminution in the amount of money that will be available to building societies. This, in turn, will have the inevitable effect of putting up the rates of interest on building society loans because the building societies will have to increase their rates to attract investments. That is just coincidental but it must follow any attempt by the Post Office to attract money on a large scale.

I have been asked, too, to refer to the Giro system which banks are introducing. Perhaps the Minister would like to say something about this and to let us know if the Post Office have considered this system. The Minister gave details of buildings which have been erected. The city of Dublin is now changing. The centre of gravity of the business world has probably moved slightly. It is moving from the centre of the city—the GPO is taken as being city centre—out to the Fitzwilliam and Baggot Street areas. We have the big post office in Andrew Street and also one in South Anne Street but I have received complaints from the people in the Baggot Street and Fitzwilliam areas to the effect that the sub-post offices close at 5.30 p.m. and that it is very difficult for some businesses to get their letters to the small sub-post offices before 5.30 p.m. The pillar boxes do not always accommodate the very large envelopes which people like solicitors, accountants, advertisers and other professional types use for legal documents and so on.

There is a pillar box in South King Street and I have sometimes gone there with letters only to find that the box was already so full that to put any more letters in might be a risk. Apart from the fact that some mischievous person might chance to come along and cause damage to the letters, the letters might arrive at their destination in very bad shape from having been put into an already over-laden pillar box. I hope the Post Office are giving consideration to these matters. Since there is a change in this city, there must also be changes in other parts of Ireland, in Cork and in some of the other cities.

Regarding staff matters, it is good to see that the machinery for the exchanging of views within the Post Office is constantly in use and is being reviewed all the time; that the co-operation of the staff is sought and granted willingly. With such a large volume of staff as the Post Office has—2 per cent of our total employment—it is important that it should run as a model from the point of view of staff relations. Apparently, it functions very smoothly and relations have always appeared to be good. The Minister refers to the continuing good results by Departmental and staff representatives on a variety of matters and that is something that is good to see in a Government Department. I trust that situation will always prevail.

The Minister, too, referred to last year's strike. However, that is over now and I need not refer to it but I trust that the people concerned will sink their differences and come in with the main Post Office body. As the Minister has said, the arbitration board is always available if agreement cannot be reached. We live in very difficult times from the point of view of labour relations and I trust that the Post Office will find that they will not have any trouble in the near future. There have been very large increases in pay and I am aware that these increases have brought about the necessity for the increases in telephone and postal charges.

Again, in that connection, I would say that it is very important for the Post Office as a body to be aware of costs and to run itself as efficiently and economically as possible because there is this feeling that it could be run more efficiently as a semi-State body. That is something on which there is room for doubt. The central Government has sometimes in the past taken its profits and not allowed it to expand in a way in which it could become a more profit-making organisation. I, as an Opposition Member, say to the Post Office that it must always guard against allowing itself to become a poor relation of Government Departments. It is now one of the most important Government Departments. Certainly it is no less important than any other Government Department in the whole State because it controls communications of every sort. The day has long gone when somebody like Hindenburg could make the remark he is alleged to have made concerning Hitler, "I might make him a Minister of Posts but I would never think of making a man like him Chancellor of the German Reich". We know the "Minister of Posts" and the status of the Post Office itself which are as high as any in the whole State, and more important than most.

Dealing with the finances of the Post Office the Minister said that 60 per cent of the Department's expenditure is on wages and salaries. I have already dealt with the fact that increased wages have unfortunately to be paid for somehow. They have to be paid for by the public and the public cannot do much about it, but such payment puts this very great burden on the Post Office. It also puts the necessary burden on the Post Office of being sure that any increases of any sort are only those necessary, because the cost of communications has such an effect on our daily lives and on our industry.

I get complaints in regard to postal deliveries that the services are not as good as they used to be. We know there are not as many deliveries. The Minister has said that he is giving substantial consideration to the long-term features of the Department and its services. That is good. He says he does not propose to go into details. Perhaps the Minister might issue a memorandum. The Minister issued two memoranda last year from his Department and they were greatly welcomed. It is a very good thing to keep the House and the public generally in touch with the changes and improvements that are going to come about. We and the public would then understand better the necessity for the increases in expenditure. When people do not understand they tend to get annoyed, but if the matter is explained to them they realise that if we expect people to pay higher wages and expect better services—postal, telegraph and telephone —then we have to pay for them. The Minister says he mentioned last year that the status and the basic organisation of the Department are under consideration. I would like the Minister to go more fully into that. The word "status" is not just a word picked at random from a dictionary. "Status and basic organisation" is a phrase that makes me wonder what the Minister has in contemplation. I feel that the Minister should give us, at the end of this Estimate, an explanation as to what exactly lies behind that phrase.

I had many points to make in connection with the Post Office generally. I am not quite sure whether I covered them all. It is difficult when a Department covers as much ground as this Department does to make sure that one refers to the matters which should be referred to. However, I will now go on to broadcasting. The Minister has given us an interesting breakdown on costs as between sound and television. I should say, first of all, that in connection with RTE generally sound broadcasting is now coming back. There were people who thought that television would supersede it and that sound broadcasting might be done away with. I do not say that they said it ought to be, but they thought that TV would gradually take over from sound broadcasting. In fact, it is becoming obvious that sound will hold its own. It is obvious that there are certain areas and fields in which sound is better than television itself. Certain types of discussions probably come over better on sound. It can be brought into schools more readily than television. The actual data which comes over in sound is not complicated by the movements or faces of the man or woman talking. There are certain fields which can more than hold their own. In the main, sound broadcasting is good. In this country, with the small amount of money available, the Authority are to be congratulated on what they do. So are all others concerned with sound broadcasting, and it goes also for television.

I want to make two points at this stage. There is the perennial matter—I just mention this but do not necessarily stand over it—of the view that the proceedings of this House should be broadcast and televised. I do not hold that view but it is held by certain people. I do not think it would add to our deliberations. It might make us more conscious of personal appearance. We are a deliberative assembly essentially and therefore I do not think it would add to our image or be good for us or for the country generally.

There is another matter which concerns broadcasting generally. It is the suggestion that we should produce programmes especially for beaming to our emigrants abroad. It has been said it would enhance our image. I do not entirely stand over that view but it is capable of being argued that it could, perhaps, and should be done. As I have said, I do not agree with either of these views but I put them out for discussion among other speakers, and the Minister might wish to refer to them when he is replying.

In dealing with RTE, all the time we have a mixture of praise and blame. The Minister has pointed out that one sees a programme and makes up his mind on it. One man likes it and another does not. One reads in the newspapers a great deal of criticism and of praise of some programme such as the "Late Late Show", which I regard as first class entertainment. We have all sorts of people appearing on it—visiting legislators, and visiting witches as well. It is all good fun.

However, we live in such a closed society that people sometimes take these things more seriously than they are intended to be taken. In trying to understand and to deal with this new medium of television here, we must realise that. I do not think the Authority or the men choosing these programmes should be tied up in knots. I would not agree with it for a moment. On the whole, considering the conditions in which they work, RTE do a good job.

Though I shall make some remarks on Ministerial responsibility in this respect, I shall not deal with Ministerial interference. If a member of the Government, a Minister, objects to a programme or to anything in connection with broadcasting, he should get in touch with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. That would be the courteous way to do it, and the easiest way because the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is the man who is responsible ultimately. He may not have a lot of responsibility, as we know from day to day questions in the House— he must thank heavens he has not— but the RTE Authority have great responsibility and the Minister comes above them.

We have got to work out our relationship with this new medium which has hit our world. The effect of its impact is that people hear views right inside their homes—in their kitchens, their sittingrooms or their bedrooms, wherever they may be. They may see suddenly a man or woman standing before the microphone saying things of which they do not approve. The Minister touched on that aspect towards the end of his speech and, before I go into the question further, I should like to say at this point that I agree with the Minister entirely.

However, I should like to emphasise my view that a great deal of allegations of Ministerial interference and of politics arise from undue sensitivity. There are occasions when people think they are interpreting the mind of the Government or maybe of a Minister in giving undue prominence to something from a political viewpoint. Generally speaking, there is very little of that and I absolve the Minister completely from the suggestion that he is a person who would ask that that be done for him. I do not think he would do it.

At the moment I am not speaking politically—I am speaking as an ordinary Irish person. At times we hear statements in direct broadcasts which shock us but as long as they are not really wrong we should not worry about them. For instance, during the last few weeks we have seen an election campaign in another part of this island and some of the statements we heard would give one a shudder up and down one's spine. That, however, does not mean that the radio or television authority stand over the views put forward. I sometimes think that it would be a good idea if at the back of every television studio there was displayed a card to read like the announcements on letter pages of newspapers: "The editor wishes to state that the views expressed in the correspondence columns of this newspaper are not necessarily his views or the views of this newspaper." It might be a good idea to have some notice like this in television studios: "The views being expressed here now are not necessarily the views of the Television Authority. Still less are they the views of the Irish people in general."

In other words, there must be a certain amount of freedom of speech. In fact, there is a good deal of it. There should not, of course, be licence and many people who hold personal views on certain things are perhaps shocked when they hear some outrageous statement or other. Of course, the answer is that 99 per cent of the people listening realise that the statement is outrageous and do not take it very seriously. They realise that we live in this strange world where there is almost a breakdown of all sorts of things. I do not mean for one moment that we should or do permit any breakdown in things affecting morals. I am thinking now of professionals, the actual commentators and so on. I think their opinions are usually very balanced.

This is a difficult field to discuss in a comparatively short speech but I think the Minister was right when he said—it is important that we should realise what he said — that current affairs programmes are designed to make viewers think constructively on social, economic and moral problems. It is a good thing that these programmes should be broadcast. That does not mean, of course, as the Minister pointed out, that we should permit or listen to this tearing down of values, this impudent interviewing of public figures—and I am not talking now of politicians. I do not think we have done much of this in Ireland but on other broadcasting systems I have seen distinguished public figures in various walks of life derided and laughed at by interviewers. That sort of thing does not do any good. We on this side of the House would absolutely support the upholding of standards of interviewing and the standards which we in this country maintain.

On one show I saw where an individual made an attack on a high churchman of this country. The man who was running the programme intervened, I thought very rightly, but he was afterwards criticised for it. I do not think the average person in this country likes to see any individual, be he high churchman or otherwise, criticised impudently without right of reply.

These things will probably always happen. This is a new medium to which we have not yet become accustomed. We are accustomed to reading news in the press and people write in and object when views are expressed in a newspaper with which they do not agree. Many people—I am not one of them—write to the paper contradicting items that have appeared. That is all right. We do not like to see and, in fact, in responsible newspapers we do not see, institutions of State attacked, except where there is good reason for it. Certainly, there are subversive elements in society today. Just as newspapers will not permit their papers to be used by those elements to forward their views, the Radio Telefís Éireann Authority should not permit their media to be used for that purpose. I imagine that the entire House would be in agreement on this matter. We certainly are not going to see our radio and television service used to tear down standards that we hold dear.

Most people are not accustomed to hearing somebody in their own homes saying something with which they profoundly disagree. In the same way, we get annoyed when we hear views with which we profoundly disagree being expressed on radio or television. We have to learn to live with that, provided it is fair comment. A person can ring up RTE to inform them of his disagreement with the broadcast but that is not a reason for getting the programme stopped. In the last year or two there were programmes which did anything but enhance the image of this House, but they have now ceased.

The Minister can be quite certain that the Fine Gael Party stand absolutely for the view that, while as much freedom as possible should be given for discussion, there should not be a stirring up of elements in our society brought about through the national broadcasting service. There are people who will advocate a different way of life. We live in a very strange world, a world of great unrest. In every part of the world, in our social life, great changes are taking place, some of which are good and some not so good. We do not want to see people being stirred up against the ordered and accepted way of life in our society and such stirring up should not be encouraged by any sound or television broadcast.

I am glad that the Minister has said what he did. It given me an opportunity of reiterating our point of view, which is, that while freedom of speech must be safeguarded and is a matter of great importance to us, there should not be unmitigated licence to tear down the institutions of State or individuals who are earnestly trying to maintain the decencies of life and to maintain society in an ordered way while at the same time giving freedom and justice to all.

I am sure I have omitted many thing from my speech but other speakers can deal with matters I failed to mention. I wish to congratulate the Minister on the presentation of these figures. We are very glad to see that the forward policy of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is being maintained. I thank the Minister for the Estimates and other documents issued in December and for the information he has supplied. that is a very good precedent and I hope it will continue. It is to the advantage of all of us, and to the advantage of the country generally, that we should have as much information as possible about the multifarious activities of this enormous Department as regards what it is doing, where it is going and how far it is keeping pace with modern trends. I trust that, when he is replying, the Minister will answer some of the points I raised.

Let me add to what Deputy Dockrell has said. My Party are also grateful to the Minister for supplying us beforehand with details and particulars regarding his Department. We find that very interesting and useful. It means that the discussion on this Estimate and on the Bill before us today can proceed in what I consider to be a more sensible way than just making political capital out of points raised in the Estimate.

As regards the Telephone Capital Bill, we all agree that since we are continually demanding additional services we must make the money available to pay for them. The programme mapped out by the Minister and the list of achievements carried out makes it easy for us to say we entirely agree with the proposals contained in the Bill.

I am glad to know that the technician training system which was begun in 1964 appears to be bearing fruit. It does appear a long time. Does it take over four years to train those young men to become fully qualified? If it does, it cannot be avoided. It is a good idea that they should be available now and, with the numbers being taken in, the numbers coming out will naturally be increasing and this should help with the proposed programme.

In regard to telephones could the Minister, when replying, give a little more detail than he gave to Deputy Dr. O'Connell the other day when he asked if telephones were disinfected or if there was any system under which this was done? This is something that should receive attention if it is not already being done.

Regarding the Estimate for Posts and Telegraphs there are many things I should like to mention and I shall try to be as brief as possible because, no doubt, a number of other speakers will want to join in the discussion. As the Minister knows, several official references have already been made in the past two years to the establishment of a corporation to run the Post Office. The Minister said the matter was under consideration. If so, consideration should be fairly far advanced now. Could the Minister make even a preliminary statement at this stage on what is the exact position? If it is proposed to turn over the postal services to a corporation may we take it that there will be full consultation with the trade unions involved before the matter is finalised? If it is going to be done, the time to do it is in advance. The loose ends could be tied up. As far as staffing interests are concerned there are very big issues involved and the Minister knows the time to deal with them is now and not later, if it is decided to make change. Particularly in regard to superannuation the issue is very big and therefore perhaps the Minister, when replying, would bring us up to date as regards the exact position now.

Could the Minister also say that is the position about civil right for postal workers? He must agree that it is a little bit ridiculous that this Department still say that even the country postman cannot be a member of a political Party while any other person in a similar position, such as an ESB employee or a teachers, can become enrolled not alone a member of a political Party but can be elected to a local council and elected to this House. Is there any reason why the old rules which have been there for so long cannot now be altered? Would the Minister consider looking at what is happening in Britain and would he not agree that there should be a change made now? I do not think there is any opposition from any Member of this House. At least a number of people who have been talking to me about this matter outside say that they discussed it with politicians of various colours and that these said that they were in favour of it. The only trouble is that they do not express their opinion in favour of it in this House: they do not say they are against it. They do not say anything.

It would be a good idea if they, particularly those who are members of the Minister's Party, if they feel that way, would even whisper in the ear of the Minister, if they do not want to be overheard: "We think this is a bit of a cod. The matter should be cleared up now." That would give the Minister the green light to clear up the matter completely. I know of no valid reason why postmen or installers or men on the technical side should be prevented from being members of a county council or of this House. They can be Independent Members. This is a cod. We have a number of them throughout the country who are, in fact, members of political parties and who were elected as Independents. Everybody knows the Party to which they belong but they must say they are Independents in order to keep within the law. I think this is a little bit foolish. I suggest the matter could be, and should be, dealt with.

Would the Minister give us some more information about the building programme? He has given a certain amount but I was looking at what is missing rather than what is included. While he has given detailed information, I am personally aware of a number of post office building around the country which are no credit to the Department. I suppose the post offices are the public offices most frequently used by tourists. Everybody wants to know where the post office is and they go there to buy stamps, make telephone calls, and so on. It is too bad if the building has not been painted for a long time, if it does not look very clean, particularly the windows, and if there are broken walls and broken furniture. This is so in very many of them, not alone in sub-post offices but in main post offices in some towns.

While a number of building that have been built are quite presentable, or even look very well, is there any hope that in building future offices the Minister will decide to have a little variety? Must these structures be all built to type? Would it not be a good idea to have some of our artists, who claim they could do very much better if they got the opportunity, design something more in keeping with the area in which the post office is rather than provide buildings which are exactly the same from one end of the country to the other? Is there a hope that something like this might be considered if the cost is not excessive? I do not know why it should not be considered. I know that there must be certain fittings and that modern offices must be built in a certain way. There must be certain installation and certain accommodation must be provided but surely it would be possible to have design particularly of exteriors, which would for in better with local conditions? The Minister knows that some of the hotels been doing this in a big way and, in fact doing it very effectively.

I should like now to know something about what has happened with regard to the provision of better facilities in Donegal town. It was decided some time ago to erect a new office there. That does not appear to be happening and there seems to be an inordinate delay in having anything dine. Would the Minister say what the position is?

The Minister would, perhaps, also let us know what has happened with regard to the office in Killarney. Again this is something about which there seems to be a bit of a mystery. It was supposed to be dealt with two years ago, but it appears to have been forgotten.

There is one office in the city here causing a consideration amount of annoyance and that is the office in Ballsbridge. I have raised this by way of question on a number if occasions. It would appear as if the office there was erected to deal with a certain number of people. Now Ballsbridge and the surrounding area has been built up and the result is there are now 51 postmen using the office, an office which had facilities for about 25 and 26 people. I know there has been a suggestions that a new office will be built there, but I understand that no effort has yet been made to acquire a site. If that is true, does the Minister not appreciate that the longer he leaves it the less chance he will have of acquiring a suitable site in the area?

After all, if private offices can be built on sites acquired in the area, surely the Post Office should be able to get a site there, if they go about it. Or is there something else wrong? Is there some reason why the matter is not being attended to? If there is, I should like the Minister to say so. The present postman staff there is 51, but apparently no move has been made to do anything about the unsatisfactory position there and I would, therefore, like some up-to-date information about it.

I should also like to know what has happened with regard to the Cavan office. The Minister knows the joke about that office: a few years ago the shop beside the office went on fire and everybody in Cavan cursed the efficiency of the bridge in putting out the fire and saving the post office from being burned down because, had it been burned down, a new building would have had to be erected. Because it was not burned down the old building was there is not much likelihood of is that there is not much likehood of the post office there being burned down because, every time it rains, the staff have to go around with vessels catching the water coming in form the roof. For a post office in a town the size of Cavan to be in that condition is too indicrous for words. This matter has been raised by me on more than one occasion within the last 18 months, but it does not appear to have made any impact on the Minister or his Department. The Minister may be able to give me some information about it.

He might also tell us whether or not any temporary can be taken to relieve the cramped conditions in the telephone exchange. I am sure he is, or some of his officials are, aware of the position there and the fact that the people working in the exchange are working in such cramped conditions that it is nearly impossible to give an efficient service. There is no reason why this situation should be allowed to continue. If there is a lack of money to build a proper exchange, surely there could be some little alleviation by the provision of alternative accommodation for the time being. I am quite sure that, if the Minister looks into this, he will realise that I am not exaggerating. The position is exactly as I say it is.

The sorting office counter at Brain Boru Street, Cork, Urgently requires some improvement. Apparently the Department said some time ago that they had given some attention to this matter. Neither the staff not the people who have inspected the place can discover what the attention was. Maybe, someone looked in and said things were not so bad, or that they should be improved, or something like that, but they most certainly have not done very much that can be seen and the staff there are dissatisfied that the position should be allowed to continue.

With regard to the Dublin sorting office, this is one of the building in Dublin which show the need for forward planning. When the office was being built we were told it would be the most modern building of its kind, if not in Europe, certainly in this country. We also heard rumours that, because of the cost, the dust extracting device was being removed from the original plan. It was, appearently, decided that it was unnecessary. While the new office is a big improvement on the previous one, the fact that there is more dust there, the nature of the work handling mailbags, parcels and letters, carrying dust and other things, depending where the mail comes from, has caused a lot of annoyance to the staff. Around Christmas, as the Minister knows, there was a threat by the staff that, if things got any wrose, they would simply walk out. I raised the matter here so that something might be done. The Parliamentary Secretary very kindly agreed to take the question at short notice and said he would give his personal attention to the matter. He is an intelligent and obliging man in many ways, but I do not think he has given this office his personal attention since because the dust is still there and nothing seems to have been done. The mere fact that Christmas is over does not remedy the situation. It has found been that, because there is so much glass in the building, at certain times of the year— we get a bit of sum something—work at speed becomes very difficult. The Department will have to do something about this in case we get another hot summer; if they do not do something conditions will become intolerable. The volume of traffic is very, very high and I can see no reason why little things like this should not have been adverted to and attended to, and the genius who suggested taking out the dust extractor should get a leather medal because he, apparently, is the cause of most of the trouble.

There is another drawback. When a business concern seeks planning permission one of the matters taken into consideration is the number of staff likely to be employed and how they are likely to travel to work. Usually one of the conditions attaching to such planning permission is that there must be ample parking space. I do not know whether or not somebody was trying to do CIE a good turn but no parking facilities were provided in this particular instance. They appear to have been completely overlooked. The menbers of the staff report that their cars, motor cycles and bicycles suffer a great deal of damage; they have to park these any old place at all and things have now reached the stage at which, unless police protection is given, it will be impossible for these people to leave their private transport anywhere close to the sorting office at all. There was a mistake made there when granting planning permission. The other thing about it is that the volume of work in the place is increasing, and I am told very little provision was made for an extension of the building if an extension is needed, and that before very long it will probably be too small.

I understand that letter-sorting machines are being introduced in many countries. I expect that they will be introduced down there, too. If that is so, where will they be put? Does it mean that the staff will all have to be cramped into some small space in order to make room for the rather sizeable machines which will be doing the work, and doing it more efficiently of course. The Minister will have to take more care with buildings in general with reference to forward planning to meet an expansion in the postal traffic and telephone development. The postal traffic space is being devoured for telephone purposes. This means that the staff, even in some of the modern. offices, have to move into a small space and it is a question of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It is bad planning. It is a matter of giving it the necessary attention and it should be dealt with before it gets completely out of hand.

We have heard a lot of talk recently about industrial democracy. It could be introduced here in a very small way. No one knows as well as the staff who work in these offices what the shortcomings are. They say that no one knows how a kitchen should be designed but the woman who works in a kitchen. She knows the right height for the sink. She knows the amount of space she requires. She knows where the cooker should go. The same thing applies to the people working in these offices. The ordinary staff should be consulted. There should be some way of consulting them and saying: "Look, have you any ideas? Do you think this could be done better this way or that way?" It would not take very much trouble to do that and it would be appreciated by the people involved. No matter how highly qualified an architect might be, he could gain quite a lot by talking to the people who will be using the facilities which he proposes to provide.

It would not be a bad idea if the Post Office had its own independent building department and architects. The Office of Public Works come in for criticism from time to time. Many proposals and complaints must be put before them. I understand that the same set of people have to deal with the different matters. Would it not be a good idea if the Post Office had their own set of building people—it need not be a very big department—who would know the ins and outs of planning and, instead of having to go to the Office of Public Works and be told: "When we can get around to it, we will design something for you," they could produce something when they needed it, and go ahead with the plans. I am sure that, if this were done, the people in the Office of Public Works would not complain if some of this type of work were taken from them. It would be simply a matter of streamlining the procedure.

I also believe that postmasters should be given a certain amount of authority with regard to decorations and repairs which have to be done in local offices. Why should it be necessary to get someone from the Office of Public Works to go down to look at a small office in the heart of the country and find out whether it needs an extra coat of paint, or whether a door needs to be repaired, or a window needs a new pane of glass? Surely it should be possible to allow the postmaster to spend £X on his own certificate, so that the work could be done in a reasonable time, and at a reasonable cost. There is no reason why this could not be done, particularly with regard to the question of paint. Many of the offices throughout the country have not been painted for many years.

We are told that certain sections of the Post Office are not paying their way. CIE are losing money hand over fist, but they paint the stations—they even painted the stations they were closing. If that is so, why cannot the Post Office paint the post offices? Nothing looks as bad as to go into a post office and find the walls and doors looking drab and dreary. I cannot say what the conditions under which the staffs have to work are like but, viewing the offices from the outside and the public counter, if the conditions where the staff work are as bad as they are outside, they must be pretty poor.

With regard to the Dublin sorting office, when new buildings are being prepared and, in regard to the new buildings which are now in the planning stage, would the Minister make sure that full attention is given to the question of ventilation, transport accommodation, dust and heating? That would be the sensible thing to do and it would be cheaper to do it before the job is done rather than wait until the buildings are erected and then wonder how you will remedy something which should have been dealt with first.

Have the Department given any thought to getting away from some of the old trappings? With the passing of the telegraph the word "telegraphs" in the name is an anachronism. If I remember correctly, the Minister told me some time ago that it was proposed to change the name of the Department to the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. That has not yet been done. I wonder if someone thought that name was too long, because the Department of Posts and Telecommunications and Transport and Power is certainly a mouthful. "Posts and Telegraphs" is a bit of a cod.

Would the Department consider it a good idea to employ a colour consultant and get away from green paint. I know we have certain people whose wounds begin to bleed as soon as we talk about something like this.

A little bit of red now and again.

It would be no harm at all, and it would brighten up the green.

Or pink.

I was going to suggest yellow and perhaps both Deputies would back that suggestion more quickly.

We have enough yellow people.

Going through the country one often finds post boxes in hedges and one could pass them by because they are green and the hedge is green. There are some people who when they go to Northern Ireland love to say: "Look at the red pillar boxes. We are different. We have green ones which show we are Irish." CIE could get away from green despite all the caoining at the time. Everyone now agrees that was a good idea. Perhaps the Minister would tell me if he would consider something like that. It is about time. It would not do any harm, and would show a fresh outlook on this matter.

A few moments ago I mentioned that there was a lot of talk about industrial democracy. There is also a lot of talk about industrial relations. This is one of the most vital issues needing attention at the moment and, despite the fact that the Minister said in his opening speech—and I agree with him—that there is very close cooperation between his Department and the various trade unions dealing with the employees of the Department, nevertheless I think things are still not right. I understand that a staff relations division has been set up in the Department. If that had not been done, I am sure there would have been more trouble.

It is not the big things which cause trouble. I do not know if the Minister is aware of this—possibly he is—but I have been a trade union official for 22 years and one of the things I discovered over the years was that, when there was a question of wages at stake, only one thing was important and that was wages. Where the wages were second and hours of work second, every other thing came up, one after the other, and people had time to consider certain items and to realise that the conditions were bad. If they were ignored year after year after year, then the item that eventually caused the trouble was not the big item, which most of us would consider was worth a row, but a small item which had been niggling there a long time. That has been my experience and it has been the experience of anybody engaged in industrial relations over the years. I wonder if delay in dealing with these little matters has not been causing more trouble in staff relations than anything else. I think the Minister will find that that is so.

I believe that one of the factors giving rise to delay is the problem of staffing the managerial side of the project. Is the managerial side of the Post Office adequately staffed to meet speedily the problems that arise in the Department? An accumulation of niggling grievances over the years can, in the end, cause an explosion out of all proportion to the problem which is being complained about. Where longstanding grievances can be regarded by the administration as of no great consequence and, at the same time, they allow them to erode the good relations which otherwise exist, surely some effort should be made to have these grievances cleared up?

A small claim—it need not be a genuine claim—can be made and allowed to be a considerable grievance ove a long time. Until that is fully investigated, it is a cause of trouble. When it is investigated, it may be admitted by everybody that it is of no importance and it may be wiped off and nothing more is heard about it. How-ever, leave it there and you are causing trouble which will not be cleared until, eventually, the necessary action is taken to have it fixed up. I believe that a course in industrial relations could be set up in the Department. Some effort should be made to train people to deal with these matters.

We do have courses for personnel management.

My information is that, whatever you have, they are not exactly what is wanted. There are courses in the Management Institute, in technical schools and in places like that. The Minister should consider releasing staff in the day-time to attend courses, if he does not already do so. It would be a good idea that civil servants should be spoken to on this subject by outside people, even though some of the lecturers might not help post office conditions. At the same time, it would help a lot if they talked to people who are used to dealing with these problems. I believe the supervisory officers, no less than the rank and file staff, both in industry and in the Civil Service would benefit by such courses.

They go to the courses of the Institute for Public Administration.

In the Post Office time?

If that is so, it appears to me as if it is not achieving the desired result. The technique of handling staff is a highly-developed skill, as the Minister knows. All his staff, from the top to the bottom, should appreciate this. I am afraid we still have in the Post Office, as in every other type of employment, people who believe that staff are merely numbers and are there to do exactly what they are told to do; that they do not have their freedoms, the very same as the person giving orders. I have no use for the person who throws a fit if he or she is told to do something and who goes off the deep end. That may be all right for film stars but it is not all right for people who have to earn an ordinary living.

In ordinary circumstances, 99 per cent of the people we deal with will react to a normal human approach, but many of them will react in the wrong way if somebody tries to boss them, if somebody tries to show them up in front of somebody else. This occasionally happens in the Post Office. Little irritations like that will drag on for long after the thing which caused it has been forgotten. Anything that can be done to try to prevent that kind of thing is well done. I understand that the Minister's Department has created welfare officer posts: that is a good idea. I shall be looking forward to developments in that line.

I am also glad to know that the Post Office disciplinary code will be reviewed. I imagine that very many of the old regulations, originally laid down when the British were here, are a little bit out of date. I am sure there will be full consultation with the staff organisation and that some type of modern procedure will be devised before new schemes are drawn up. Some years ago, I was horrified to come across the case of a man who was driving for the Post Office and who bumped against somebody, or else somebody bumped against him. Obviously, the Garda were satisfied he was not at fault but the Post Office, because he got a little dent on the van, decided he was at fault and suspended him for a week. If he had been taken to court for causing an accident he would have been fined perhaps £1 or 30s but the Department were fining him his week's wages. His wage, I think, was £15 per week. This happens also in some outside employment where employers, if they get away with it, will take strong action against somebody who has had an accident with one of their vehicles, whether or not the employee was responsible for the accident when driving. The employers take strong action, if they are let away with it, as a warning to everybody else in their employment to be very careful. However, the amount of penalty involved is so great as to make it ridiculous. It is an old punishment code handed down from the British. The sooner it is completely scrapped, the better. Let us draw up our own code and get the matter discussed with the people representing the workers and we shall find that it will be far better in the long run.

I come now to a hoary chestnut, that is, pensions for auxiliary postmen and unestablished officers. Has any progress been made in this regard? Again, this is a suggestion that not a Deputy in the House will oppose. I am quite sure there are Deputies here today who will be very loud in their support that something be done about what they consider to be a national scandal, which, in fact, is what it is. Yet, there does not appear to be any effort to try to have it remedied. I know several old men who were auxiliary postmen all their lives. They worked for as long as they were able to work. When they retired, there was an item in the news-papers about the number of miles they had walked during their working life-time but that is all they got when they left the job — no gratuity, no pension.

In view of the fact that we have at present so many employers introducing pension schemes it is about time these people were included. I noticed that last week a Bill was passed to ensure that 11 people employed by an agricultural group attached, very likely, to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries would get pensions and they have only been in existence for three years. Here are people who have been in the employment of the Post Office since the State was founded and before it and because the State does not say they are entitled to a pension apparently the State is not going to do anything about them.

I appeal to the Minister's good sense because I am sure he appreciates the difficulty as well as I do and the hard-ships inflicted by this outdated rule to see that something is done about it. I hope that when he is replying the Minister will tell me where he stands in relation to the grievances of these men, postmen and other unestablished officers.

People who know nothing about the problem ask: "Why can this not be taken up by the unions? Is this not a matter for arbitration?" The union cannot process a claim through conciliation and arbitration machinery without a change in legislation and in the last analysis it remains for the House to decide on this. I am sure if the Minister brings in the necessary legislation there will be no objection by anybody. The funny thing is that there are thousands of people in the country enjoying pensions greater than what these men are getting as wages because they are not the best-paid people in the country. They are people who are paid a very low rate. How they exist I do not know and then at the end of it all they just clock out on the last day of work and that is it. They can go anywhere they like as far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are concerned.

Every day you see new sections of workers negotiating increased pension rights and so on and I can see no earthly reason why similar treatment should not be given to these people as is given to their full-time colleagues and, indeed, the better paid servants and officers of the State and semi-State bodies. If the problem is that they are part-time is there any reason why they could not be given at least a part-pension according to the same formula that applies to their full-time colleagues? Is there any reason why that could not be done? At least it would be something. It would not be leaving them on the road without a shilling in their pockets which is what is being done. It cannot continue any longer. Somebody must do something about it and I suggest that the Minister is the person who should do it. These old folk do not talk about the Minister or anybody else. To them it is just the Government, those fellows up in Dublin who run the country, and it does not matter much to them who they are, but they will tell you that the Government are waiting for them to get scarcer and with the change in the postal system, vans taking over and so on, they are getting scarcer. One old fellow said to me last week: "Sure they will do what they did with the old IRA. They will wait until we die and they will probably do something for the last couple left." You get that attitude and you cannot blame them for being cynical because that has been their experience and that is it.

Would the Minister be prepared to tell us what is happening with regard to the five-day week for postmen? I know that people will raise their hands in horror when they hear a five-day week for postmen mentioned. They will ask: "What, no post on Saturday?" Many of us would welcome not receiving any letters on Saturday. Nearly everybody in the public service has had a five-day week for many years. Industrial workers generally have it. Postmen in the main rise very much earlier than any of the others and I think they deserve a five-day week as much if not more than some people who already have it. Most firms, offices and factories do not open on Saturday anyway and the loss to the State or to industry would not be very great.

There might be a bit of an outcry at the beginning but after a couple of weeks most people would come to accept that they did not get letters on Saturday. They do not get letters on Sunday and when the Christmas Day delivery was taken off there was a lot of annoyance but the people accepted it before very long and I think they would readily agree to foregoing delivery on Saturday if the position were explained to them. I understand that schemes have been suggested. I should like to know is this something which is likely to be debated and debated because while the debate is going on postmen are still working six days. This is one of the niggling things which causes unrest. People feel that nothing has been done about it and, therefore, it does not matter a lot. The Minister should give an explanation to the public of what exactly is at stake and the public would accept it from the Minister if he stated why the five-day week was being put into operation. I know that certain people who are on a five-day week themselves would possibly be the first to kick up about it. We found that in other spheres.

We will never be able to get a five-day week.

We are proposing a five-day week for the House. We are discussing it next week.

That is for the House, of course.

It would be necessary to ensure that there would be no loss of earnings. I do not mean that fellows should lose one-sixth of their week's earnings which I am sure is what would come into the minds of some people as being the ultimate end of the whole thing. Like other employees a five-day week should be given to postmen at their present rate of pay.

I have another corny one here which I asked the Minister about around Christmas. He gave me a reply which I was not quite happy about and as the results come up I am less happy. This is the question of Christmas overtime for rural postmen. Could the Minister explain the Department's policy in relation to payment for Christmas overtime where rural postmen are concerned? I have received complaints from men that they are not being paid for overtime work on Christmas deliveries or that their overtime has been cut. It seems to be an extraordinary state of affairs. In view of an increased post at Christmas the Post Office must make a surplus on stamps. It is surely blatantly unjust that the people who deliver this extra correspondence should not be paid for the hours they work. As far as I can see the rural postmen are singled out for special mistreatment in this regard. I was told on one occasion that overtime is limited no matter how much correspondence a man has to deliver and then I was told that there is no limit. Can the Minister say which is correct and if there is a limit how is the limit made out? Who decides it? Have we reached a stage at which a rural postman delivering Christmas mail cannot be trusted to come back when he delivers his mail or does somebody say: "If he goes out with the mail he will sit on the side of the road on a freezing winter's day in order to clock up a couple of hours' overtime?" I think this is the thinking in the minds of the people who decided on this. Let the Minister have any inspections, spot checks or anything he likes but for goodness sake let him ensure that when a man works overtime at Christmas delivering mail and has four hours extra as a result, somebody in Dublin does not decide that it only took him two hours, somebody who does not know how many letters he had or what distance had to be covered.

How does the Deputy know that the man in Dublin did not know that?

Unless he went around with the postman he would not know it.

The Deputy does not know whether he did or did not.

The people who made complaints to me said nobody went around with them and they have not an invisible man yet in the Post Office. I think that is fair enough.

Get smart.

I have noticed an increase in the use of modern bicycles, particularly in the city. Would the Post Office consider buying a couple of dozen of these bicycles? Parcels can be put on them. They are low and handy and they are much better and easier to handle than the old-type bicycle, or has it been decided to wait until the firm making the old ones goes out of business before they go over to the new ones? The Minister has not had the experience I had of using an old postman's bike, and I can tell him that you would certainly need to be, as they say down the country, "all in your health" to hold it on the road, particularly on a wild day. It would not cost so much to switch over and the Minister should make the experiment.

I am sure the Minister is aware that in the country at the present time permission has been given for the use of autocycles, scooters and motor cycles for the purpose of delivering mail by a number of postmen for long runs that they could not otherwise do. I had an interesting letter today from the Revenue Commissioners with reference to a man who was using a motor cycle to deliver mail on a pretty long route and who was looking for an allowance for his motor cycle. He must have checked with the Post Office because this is the gen that came back:

... there is no allowance for expenses incurred in the use of Mr. Toman's motor cycle on his rounds as Postman, as the expense is not necessarily incurred.

As Deputy Dockrell said a few minutes ago, I do no know whether Mr. D.J. Keane, cigire, inspector of taxes, went around with the postman to find out whether he could manage without the bike; I do not think he did, but I do think he wrote to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and asked whether this man needed to use a motor cycle in the course of his work and he got back the reply "No". It is physically impossible to do the route which the man has to do in the hours laid down to him unless he uses a motor cycle. If I send it to the Minister—because it is no use sending it back to Mr. Keane—would the Minister have some inquiries made because I can assure him this man could do with the extra allowance because he has been very well salted for a certain reason.

As regards cycling postmen and postmen generally, I do not know whether anyone here is out as early as I am. I go into town in the dark, particularly with the new time, and I notice postmen cycling along in dark clothes. It is hard to see them. Would it be an idea for the coming winter, whether the time is changed or not, to issue some type of coat or bands to postmen to ensure that they will be seen by motorists? It is not their fault. Even the postmen walking along looking into a bag are inclined to move out on the road without being too careful.

Another old question is that of uniform. I mentioned here before the postman who thought that the uniforms issued to postmen were made to a design of one man who was measured and that the fellow himself must not have been too well made, because there was never a postman born that the uniform seemed to fit. It certainly did not add anything to his appearance. On top of that, to have to wear a hairy old uniform, something like the bull's wool issued in the Army, buttoned up to his throat right through the hottest day in summer, which was the regulation, was a little bit out.

I understand that there are proposals to have some new type of uniform issued, and I hope the proposals do not take too long in maturing. If it is intended to supply new uniforms to postmen, would the Minister tell us what stage it has reached and is it proposed to issue, as was issued to the Garda, a lightweight jacket which may be used in the summer? Will the new uniform have an open collar so that there could be a shirt collar and tie exposed in order to ensure that every postman in the country will not have a different type of uniform by having different types of shirts? Would the Minister consider issuing, in addition, at least one shirt or what was used by fellows going to dress dances long ago, a shirt front, if they could not afford a shirt.

Yes, a dickie. It should be easy enough to issue even one shirt and the postman could supply another one himself. Whatever is being supplied, let it be a uniform.

Is the Minister aware that all the income tax forms issued to postmen are issued in the Irish version? I have no objection at all to this if the postmen want it. If forms are asked for in Irish they should be issued, but to issue forms in Irish to people who have never used the Irish language all their lives and who will be put to the trouble of writing in and asking for one in English is a little bit ridiculous. This makes a joke of the Irish language rather than improve the position in regard to it. The Minister can take it that that is the situation, and it is an irritation that turns people against the language revival. There is no sense in it at all.

The Minister refers in his opening speech to the new telephone directory. There should be a different coloured page in the middle so that one would know when one was leaving the Dublin area and going into the other area, without having to thumb through the whole book.

That was an oversight.

The second point is in connection with the business directory. Am I right in saying that the right to issue the business directory was given to a foreign firm on payment to the Department of a fairly substantial sum of money and that that firm was then in the position to prepare the directory and to try to get as much money as they could back? It is an international firm that has been doing this. Is the Minister aware that these people have been phoning individual firms and asking them if they wanted to be included in the new directory and that it would cost £7. Of course, if they paid £7 they would be put in large print, but it was not mentioned at any stage that if they did not pay the £7 they would appear in the normal way. This smacks a little bit of sharp practice, and I am not too happy about the idea of having the thing done the way it was.

I think the Department should have prepared the directory themselves. After all, if someone can make money out of this, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, already having most of the firms in last year's directory under a different heading, could very likely have broken even or made a few pounds if they did it themselves. It was a mistake not to do it themselves.

I am glad it has been decided to give the service to the blind, which was mentioned by the Minister. This is something they do not use very much, but it is a small concession to them. I cannot see, as mentioned by Deputy Dockrell, why the Department did not adopt the GIRO system. This would have been a way in which they could have given a service which would have suited many people. If the Minister has a comment to make on it I should like to have it when he is replying.

With regard to the savings department I think those of us who advocate catering for the small saver feel that the changeover to the higher rate was too much delayed. While the new rate is attracting a lot of money, I am not prepared to agree with Deputy Dockrell that this is money being taken from the building societies and so on. The small saver with a small amount of money looks for someplace like the Post Office to put it in. We are being unfair to those people in the matter of interest rates. They should get the best possible treatment. If one looks over the years at the amount of money they invest and takes into account the depreciation of money values, it is evident they will not get back the worth of what they initially put in. This is a point which should be borne in mind.

I should like now to deal with the question of programmes on RTE. In the main they have been producing excellent programmes. For its size and the amount of money available to it the station is doing a very good job. While I do not see as much television as I should, I am in a position to comment on this because I can receive four different stations. For threequarters of the time at least, I find Telefís Éireann give a better programme.

I also agree with the Minister regarding the introduction into programmes of people who most certainly do not represent a general body of opinion anywhere in the country, who are allowed to hold forth and attack all that is respectable in the country and to give the impression that they are, in fact, speaking for a wide section of the public. In that way they do a lot of harm to those who are impressionable and who, by listening and not knowing the full facts, may get the impression that these people are speaking with authority, when in fact they are merely the voice of their own distorted minds or represent the views of a few of their companions.

The Minister is quite right in saying that this kind of thing should not be allowed. I would be all in favour of saying that you can have this on, but you cannot have that on. If we have censorship in the country, I think that sort of dangerous thing should be liable to be censored as anything else. This modern idea of a few small-minded people seeking to pull down the established religions and the established practices in many fields, including politics, must be stopped. The way to stop it is to prevent them getting an opportunity of trying to represent that they are talking for a lot of people.

One of the things wrong with newspaper reporting and radio and television reporting, but particularly television reporting, is that a person may say a very intelligent thing 100 times but he will not get a line for it; but if somebody says something damn stupid he gets the headlines and the cameras are there to see if he will say it again. If there is some type of exhibition or if somebody does something good in the country, nobody bothers; but if there is a row with a couple of those long-haired people in the city or in some street down the country and they do something stupid, the cameras are down there and half a newsreel is given over to portraying these events as the important happenings in the country. This is what has brought about the present situation in our universities. So much publicity was given to what was happening abroad, that this sort of thing was regarded as a good thing to do and somebody else copied it. We are now reaping the reward of that. That is wrong.

Telefís Éireann are doing themselves a disservice when they do that. I am not one of those who say there is a political bias in Telefís Éireann. I do not know what happened to Deputy Blaney or anyone else. As far as I am concerned, I go in and out there and I know that, if you are going on a programme, you have to wait until certain things are ready and nobody points a gun to you. I have no complaint about them regarding that. What I have a complaint about is the question of what is news. Last night in this House the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Cosgrave, referred to something that was said by a man, who is not a Member of the House but who adopts the Labour policy. Deputy Corish also spoke before Deputy Cosgrave and made an excellent speech. Yet when "Today in the Dáil" came on it was not mentioned, but when the television news came on it was presented in such a way as if Deputy Cosgrave spoke first. Despite the fact that Deputy O'Leary said the comment was unfair and untrue, that was not mentioned; and Deputy Corish's statement was given as if he had spoken after Deputy Cosgrave and had not attempted to refute the statement made.

That sort of reporting is wrong. I do not know who is responsible for it, but it should not be done. We are not in a position to refer to persons outside this House when we are making speeches here, and usually the Chair prevents us from doing that. It was rather unfortunate that I was in the Chair last night when this was said. If I had attempted to prevent Deputy Cosgrave from proceeding, although I knew what he was stating was incorrect, I would have been accused of being biased. Therefore, I had to allow it to go through. I think the reporting of the matter was wrong and it was the type of reporting which does not do Radio Telefís Éireann any good.

This is not the first occasion something like this has happened. At our annual conference somebody made a speech. The whole speech was televised but one sentence was picked out, and even though that was merely the man's personal opinion, that particular sentence was presented as though it was the general opinion. At the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis the same thing happened. I am quite sure neither the Minister nor the Chair would agree that what was given represented the views of the Fianna Fáil Party, but that was what was put across. This is the sort of thing which I consider wrong. As I say, I am an admirer of Telefís Éireann. I think they are doing a very good job but they slip up some-times by putting an accent on the wrong thing and in the wrong place. The sooner they realise that, the better for all concerned.

Reference has been made to the question of televising the proceedings of the House. I do not agree with what Deputy Dockrell says on this. Perhaps if some of the proceedings were televised from time to time, as is done elsewhere, it might not be a bad thing. It would certainly increase the attendance and also, since some people seem to think that some sort of machine comes in after the Second Reading of a Bill and takes over from there, television would show that this is not so and we might be given more credit from the general public for what we do. Deputy Dockrell would say, of course, that 99 per cent of the people do not hear or do not believe the statements made by some people but the fact is that those who do hear usually take the wrong meaning. This is what happened last night with Deputy Cosgrave.

In so far as sound radio is concerned, the Minister may be missing out on something. I think that the reason why sound radio is losing money is because not enough of the £5 licence is allocated to sound radio. Sound radio is doing a better job than most people are prepared to admit. There are large numbers of people throughout the country who use sound radio to a large extent— people driving their cars or walking around with transistors and, of course, people in those areas where there is still no television. It is most likely that all of those people will have paid their £1 fee and, therefore, the proper consideration should be given to them because they are paying their share.

As far as increasing the licence fee is concerned, this is really too bad for those people who pay their fees. One thing I discovered recently was that most poor people pay their licence fees because they are afraid their sets might be taken away, or some other action taken against them, but very often the people who do not pay are those who, because of their position, believe that nobody will ever ask them to produce a licence. Some of them even brag they have not paid a television licence fee since getting their set eight or ten years ago.

Spongers, yes. Call them what you like but they are the people who are not paying their fees. I believe it would be unfair to increase the licence fee particularly in areas where there is only one channel and where there is bad reception from the one channel. Talking of bad reception, I should like to refer briefly to another aspect of this problem. There are certain areas where, deliberately or otherwise—local people will say that it is deliberate—Telefís Éireann cuts in on UTV and where, if the UTV channel is turned on during the Telefís Éireann broadcasting hours, there is a humming noise or a blur across the screen.

A bullfight from Spain.

Yes, we get that occasionally, too. We also get the Welsh Station and a French one but the only trouble is that they do not come on when one expects them. At any rate, people whose reception is bad, will be very aggrieved if it is decided to increase the licence fee. Again, I should like to thank the Minister for his courtesy in giving us so much documentation. He is very good at figures and has given us plenty of them. With this Telephone Capital Bill he is heading in the direction in which most of us would like to see him going. We want more telephones installed and we want them installed as quickly as possible and that can only be done if the money is made available by this House for this purpose.

Deputy P.J. Burke has kindly agreed to give me an opportunity of speaking for five minutes or so. Since the question of telephones has been stressed in this Estimate, I should like to stress the need for the provision of more phones in my constituency. I am sure that my colleague, Deputy Geoghegan, will agree with me when I say that there is a great demand for more telephones in Galway. Our city is, I am proud to say, an up and coming one touristwise but it is in great need of telephones. Along the west coast this need is very great, in order to enable us to cater for the ever-increasing number of tourists which we get each year. By helping us to acquire the extra telephones needed, the Minister will, in fact, be helping the tourist industry.

I notice that the Minister, this year, has provided a little extra money by increasing the phone charges from 4d to 6d. It is said that "Talk is cheap until one takes up a telephone". I should like to stress, also, the need for privacy in post offices. When people wish to transact business in their post office, they like to know that they can do so without everybody behind them knowing what is going on. If, say, a woman wishes to put a few shillings into her post office savings account, she does not wish her neighbours to know how much she is putting in. Greater shielding is required if we are to have this privacy. It is also important that the officials discuss matters in an undertone and not in a voice loud enough for everybody to hear.

The television service, on the whole, is doing a very good job but just as in politics, they cannot expect to please all the people all the time, because that would be an impossibility. However, I should like to make a few comments on the service. In my opinion, we are getting far too many fifth-rate, American-type films. If this continues we shall have American accents before very long. Could we not have something that would be of more interest to the people here? I agree with the Deputy who referred to the long-haired groups. We are also getting far too much of this type. They have no more music than one would find at a fair among cattle mooing and pigs squealing. This is not only my belief, I am expressing opinions which are abroad.

Now that the school strike is over —thank God for that—could we have Radio Telefís Éireann playing a greater part? Could they help us to make up for the loss the children have sustained during this strike? They have done a good job and possibly could help in this. Could we have civics through this medium? It was never more needed than it is today, as one will see by looking around.

People are not slow to condemn the "Late Late Show"; nevertheless they are always trying to look at it. That in itself is a tribute to the show. I must comment on a recent letter. This letter was so filthy it could not be read on TV. It was a letter condemning the compere and it was held up before the cameras. I do not know why a letter like that was shown on television. I know for a fact that the signature to that letter was a false one. There was a dual address on it. There was a number of a house given at one end of the town, and an additional address was given at the other end of the town. This caused considerable embarrassment to a decent respectable citizen. The showing of this letter on RTE was not restricted. If an ordinary person sent such a letter through the post the Garda would have dealt with it. Why was this letter not given to the Garda first for investigation? The letter condemned the compere in filthy language and the compere should not have shown this on RTE. I do not blame him because he does not prepare the programme. He just goes in and does the job handed to him to do. That letter has caused great embarrassment at one address even though it is a kind of mixed-up address.

Will the Deputy let me in before 2.30 p.m.?

I will, indeed. I will let him in in half-a-minute. There are rumours that the RTE licences are to go up. I hope we will hear no more of that rumour. Could RTE play a part in helping the tourist drive by showing some of the beauty spots of the country? I must thank Deputy Burke and now give him a chance to speak.

I have been here since 10.45 a.m. There was a big field speaking about the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The Minister gave a very detailed statement on everything that his Department is doing. It was an encouraging statement. I have had the pleasure over the years of dealing with one particular section of this Department while trying to get telephones for the people of County Dublin. The officials of the Telephone Section were very courteous. One could put any of them into the diplomatic service. They were not always able to meet my wishes—it would be a miracle if that were so—but they tried to do whatever job was asked of them.

Some of my friends in Swords, North County Dublin, applied for telephones over two years ago. I have been told that the position will be rectified within the next few weeks. This just shows that any money or staff that the Minister can spare should be directed towards extending the telephone service to meet the huge demand. I feel that a wait of two years is too long. I know the Minister has trained staff to do this job and I know the capital charges involved. The trend in our affluent society is for people to have private telephones. There are, of course, priority cases like doctors, clergymen and businessmen. I fell businessmen should get priority as they have been. This whole question of providing telephones is a huge problem.

I am often on the telephone to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and even to the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary. I feel that anything that the Minister can do to expedite the telephone service should be done. He will have the backing of all the House. Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether there is a shortage of staff but I feel that we should be able to meet the demands in less than two years.

I welcome the advance made by the Minister where telephone kiosks are concerned. A kiosk is a social amenity in a district. It may be responsible for saving a person's life. A kiosk is a very essential social service in a district. I would like the Minister to provide a public kiosk in every district even if his Department has to bear the financial cost of its erection. Even if it does not pay its way, it is a worth-while social service. We should have a special section in the Department to deal with kiosks, even if such a section would have to be subsidised from other sections of the Department. We should not always be tied to economics where social services are concerned and I look on a kiosk as a social service.

I would like to deal with the question of vandalism in the strongest language possible. Vandalism has caused much damage to a number of our telephone kiosks in the city and county of Dublin. The people that are doing it are committing a grave crime. People might be saved in road accidents or in other accidents, or even in cases of illness, by the availability of a telephone kiosk. It is dreadful to think that people are destroying these kiosks. These vandals are not children. They are men who go into these kiosks just to destroy them. I am sure the Minister could tell the House how many public kiosks have been destroyed in the city and county of Dublin from time to time. Even if we have to have plainclothes men to keep an eye on these people, we have reached the stage at which we should make an example of the men or boys who are responsible for doing this damage. I believe they are in gangs and that they travel about in cars just to cause mischief and devilment where-ever they can. I would like the Minister to give us his opinion on the whole position and to tell us the number of kiosks that have been destroyed.

With reference to postal deliveries, there are areas in my constituency where the people complain that it is too late in the day when they receive their letters. I have often told them it cannot be helped, but I wonder if in areas, particularly rural areas, where the post is always delivered first to business firms and later, perhaps at 1 p.m., to private addresses, whether there could not be some system of rotation worked out. It is the only way in which this problem could be resolved because I appreciate that the Department cannot employ any more auxiliary postmen—a matter which I shall deal with after Question Time.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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