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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Dec 1970

Vol. 250 No. 5

Transport Bill, 1970 : Second Stage.

I move : "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is a temporary measure to meet ClE's immediate financial difficulties and provide an opportunity for a more thorough examination of the position in relation to future years.

It provides for payment to the board in the current financial year of additional subsidy not exceeding £2.98 million, which is the amount of ClE's estimated net loss this year after account is taken of the board's annual grant of £2.65 million.

The annual grant of £2.65 million was fixed just 12 months ago. On 31st December, 1969, I made an order under section 6 of the Transport Act, 1964, increasing the grant from £2 million to £2.65 million per annum. The order had previously been approved, in draft, by both the Dáil and Seanad.

CIE have a statutory obligation to break even, taking one year with another, with the aid of the annual grant and the revised grant of £2.65 million was regarded as a realistic estimate of the minimum subsidy with which CIE could get by, during the five year period ending 31st March, 1974, on the basis of effective management and increased efficiency and productivity. The board has not succeeded in breaking even and the main reason can be summed up in one word —inflation.

The annual grant of £2.65 million was fixed on the basis of estimates of ClE's annual deficit for the five year period 1969-70 to 1973-74. These estimates did not include any provision for the 12th round increase in salaries and wages on the grounds that it was appropriate that national wage rounds and other increases in labour costs which might arise during the five year period should be recovered by way of increases in fares and rates, to the extent that they could not be met by way of economies and increased productivity. Likewise, the estimates did not include provision for additional revenue from increases in fares and rates. This, in my view, is the only reasonable approach to the fixing of ClE's annual subvention.

No one could have foreseen in December, 1969, that the 12th round settlements would be of such magnitude that they would cost CIE almost £5 million in a full year or that the overall increase in the board's labour costs would amount to an estimated £6.7 million in a full year. Other costs have also increased—charges for materials and services, financial charges, depreciation provisions, et cetera.

Apart from the effects of inflation, there are many other factors which have contributed to the substantial increase in ClE's losses. I will mention just a few. Strikes, both inside and outside CIE, cost the board about £277,000 in gross revenue in 1969-70. To date this year they have cost CIE another £430,000. Strikes in the cement and fertilising industries contributed substantially to a decline of 3 per cent in rail freight tonnage in 1969-70—over the previous five years there had been an increase of 34 per cent.

There has been a continuing decline in the number of passengers using the Dublin city services. Over 7 million fewer passengers were carried in 1969-70 than in the preceding year; compared with the year 1964-65, the number of passengers carried in 1969-70 was down by almost 28 million. The growing traffic congestion, which is, of course, a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Local Government, continues to be a major cause of disruption of Dublin bus services. It has, no doubt, contributed to the decline in passenger numbers. It has certainly contributed substantially to the reduced profitability of these services. The net profit on the Dublin city services was only £61,000 in 1969-70 on a turnover of £7.7 million and on the basis of present estimates these services show a net loss of £280,000 in 1970-71. While the board's coach tours continued to expand in 1969-70, the hoped for development was retarded due to disturbances in Northern Ireland, which were responsible for the cancellation of many bookings.

One important factor which is often overlooked is the timelag between the date of implementation of increases in salaries and wages for CIE employees and the date on which consequential increases in fares and rates are introduced. Depending on the time taken to complete negotiations, the retrospective element of salary and wage increases can be quite substantial. This was the position with the 12th round increase. In such cases, the timelag can have a significant effect on ClE's losses.

Even with the two increases in fares and rates in June and October, 1970, which will bring in additional revenue to CIE estimated at £3.5 million in the current financial year and £6.6 million in 1971-72, ClE's estimated net deficits in 1970-71 and 1971-72 will amount to £5.63 million and £4.79 million respectively. The board's annual grant will, therefore, be inadequate to the extent of £2.98 million in the current financial year and £2.14 million next year. The present Bill is an ad hoc measure to deal with ClE's financial difficulties during the current financial year.

To a certain extent, it might be said that CIE are this year the victims of circumstances and not the masters of their own destiny. Nevertheless, the Government are gravely disturbed by the board's progressively deteriorating financial position. They are particularly concerned about the growing losses on the railway. In 1964, when the Government took the major policy decision to preserve the railway system, subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as might be practicable or desirable, operating losses on the railway amounted to £905,000. In 1968-69 these losses had grown to £2.1 million; in 1969-70 they amounted to £3.1 million. Adding financial charges, the net deficit on the railway last year was £4.2 million and CIE estimate that even with the increases in fares and rates, total net losses on the railway will exceed £5.6 million this year and next year.

The growing losses on the railway are symptomatic of the inflation to which I referred earlier. The railway is more vulnerable to wage inflation than the board's other services in that salaries and wages of railway employees represent approximately 81 per cent of total railway revenue, compared with 67 per cent for Dublin city services, 61 per cent for road freight services and 54 per cent for provincial road passenger services.

Railway losses of over £5.6 million per annum cannot, however, be accepted with equanimity and I have, therefore, set up a joint committee comprising representatives of my own Department, the Department of Finance and CIE to investigate the deterioration in ClE's financial position and to identify possible corrective measures.

I have agreed that the committee should enlist the aid of consultants in their task. The first priority will be to examine the reasons for the increased losses on railway working and to determine what can be done, in the short term, to reduce these losses. A report on this aspect of the matter should be available early in the financial year 1971-72 and we will then be in a better position to decide what should be done about ClE's losses in that year.

A study in depth to establish what measures might be taken in the long term to achieve a reduction in ClE's losses will also be undertaken. Arising out of this study, which will outline the various alternatives to existing policy in relation to the railways and the implications of these alternatives in terms of Exchequer assistance for CIE, employment, reduction of services, et cetera, the Government will be better informed as to whether any change is necessary in existing policy and, if so, the various options open to them.

Since the Bill was introduced, I have been advised that section 1, as drafted, is open to the interpretation that the grants payable to CIE under the section would include any grants payable to the board under previous enactments. This, of course, is not the intention and I propose, therefore, to move an amendment to the section at the Committee Stage to clarify the position.

I should mention that the Bill must be enacted before the Christmas Recess, as otherwise CIE could run short of cash before the end of January.

I commend the Bill to the House.

We are left with no alternative but to agree to give the Minister this Bill. He states that the Bill is purely a temporary measure to meet ClE's financial difficulties and he says in the last paragraph that the Bill must be enacted before the Christmas Recess as otherwise CIE could run short of cash before the end of January. The only welcome statements by the Minister this morning are that the Government are seriously perturbed about the financial position of CIE and that a special committee has been set up by the Minister to undertake a short term and a long term investigation into the whole financial structure of CIE.

I have stated at Question Time on a number of occasions over recent months that it appears to be an extraordinary situation that exactly 12 months ago the Minister introduced a Transport Bill, the main purpose of which was to make provision for the State subvention to CIE over the next five years and now CIE find themselves in an unprecedented serious financial position. The Minister has attempted to pinpoint some of the reasons for this extraordinary state of the finances of CIE. He has listed wages and said that the 12th round settlement cost CIE £5 million. He said that other costs have also increased such as charges for materials and services, financial charges and depreciation provisions.

No indication was given by the Minister a year ago that CIE were heading for trouble. Despite what the Minister says about it being impossible last December to forecast what the outcome of the 12th round negotiations would be, I do not accept that at all. Surely when the Minister was preparing a Bill to be introduced into this House making provision for the next five years, he must have been aware that the financial situation was not good and that CIE were heading for difficulties.

In recent times I accused the Minister of having misled the House in December, 1969. I want to make this quite clear. The Minister cannot expect, any more than CIE can expect, that he can come in here as often as he likes and seek £X million, and that Dáil Éireann will give unqualified approval to this. In the circumstances of this particular measure, and in view of the very serious situation in which CIE find themselves, I want to warn the Minister that this kind of stop-gap legislation, this type of stop-gap financial provisioning for CIE will not be tolerated any further. The Minister has now given an undertaking in public that a fully comprehensive investigation will be initiated into the affairs of CIE. I accept that as being bona fide but I will expect that this investigation will be thorough and comprehensive and that it will pinpoint the difficulties and put forward the remedies.

I have said on a number of occasions that it is the opinion of my party that there is an urgent need for the introduction in Parliament of some method or system of public accountability in relation to the State companies. We do not know—we have no way of knowing; in fact, the Minister seems to be at sea and is himself not too sure—what has gone wrong with CIE. He gave some obvious reasons such as wages and costs of materials and so forth, but I believe the problem in CIE that has come to light in recent months goes much deeper than the question of wages or the question of increased cost of materials.

I believe there must be a number of serious defects in the whole management structure of CIE. I do not say that lightly. In the past I have complimented the board and the management of CIE but, confronted with the situation that has arisen in the past 12 months, and faced with having to provide a fire brigade action for CIE by providing £3 million, one cannot but suspect that there is something seriously wrong. I regret to say this but from inquiries I have made, questions I have asked and observations I have made, I am becoming increasingly suspicious about the effectiveness of the management structure of CIE. To put it bluntly, I am convinced that there are far too many managers. There are area managers and district managers and God alone knows what different types of managers.

The Minister referred to the cost of the 12th round settlement as being £5 million. He seemed in his statement —and this has been the common practice not merely of the present Minister but of previous Ministers—to lay the blame for any financial difficulties in which CIE find themselves on the question of wages and by implication on the workers having being unreasonable in their demands.

A few months ago I went to the trouble of having compiled a complete breakdown of the wage rates paid to the different categories of workers in CIE. When one compares the different scales for engine drivers and various operators one finds that these wage rates do not even compare favourably with the average wage rates in manufacturing industry. I do not intend to go into too much detail on this because we cannot do so until the investigation which the Minister says he will undertake is completed.

The Minister referred to the Dublin bus fares and said there has been a continuing decline in the number of passengers using the Dublin city services. Of course there must have been, when one realises that since 1965 Dublin bus fares have shown an increase of 110 per cent. Bus fares have grown four times as fast as the cost of living and twice as fast as wages and salaries. In June this year we had a 7 per cent increase and again in October we had a 17½ per cent increase. Continuously increasing fares is not the correct approach. I believe there is another approach to the whole matter, that is, by imaginative and proper planning and the introduction of special incentives to encourage people to use public transport. The situation in relation to the Dublin city services is also very serious. It is just one aspect of the whole problem.

To put it in a nutshell in the 12 months which have elapsed since the Minister introduced his five-year plan for CIE, we have had two increases in fares, one in June and the other a few months ago which, taken in toto so to speak, represent an outrageous increase. My opinion is that these increases were unjustifiable. They have imposed an intolerable burden particularly on the workers who utilise public transport to get to and from their work.

The fact that CIE are now so much in the red reflects very badly on the whole set-up in CIE. Apart from the increases in fares, more recently another even more serious situation came to light when we learned that CIE have placed a £2½ million contract for the manufacture of locomotive wagons or rail-passenger wagons in Britain. Whatever about the financial affairs of CIE, this will have to be examined and the Minister has undertaken to do so. To me the placing of this £2½ million contract is a fair indication of gross mismanagement on the part of CIE. In 1961 or 1962, we had redundancy in the locomotive works and the wagon shops in Limerick. The Minister was unfortunately engaged, as I was, in western parts of the country last week when I tabled a question on this matter. Deputy Childers stood in for the Minister and the reply was unsatisfactory. Surely CIE, with all the expertise it is supposed to have in its top management and area management—economists, statisticians and all the others— should have been able to forecast the needs of CIE for rolling stock and surely the company should have taken steps to ensure that it had an adequate supply of skilled workers?

It is outrageous that one of our major State companies has placed an order outside this country for the manufacture of wagons which could have been manufactured at home. Surely this is a contradiction not merely of company policy but of the whole Government approach to the provision and generation of employment at home? I am satisfied, and I have examined the evidence of both sides as far as it has been available to me, that this £2½ million contract need never have been placed abroad, it should never have been placed abroad and I challenge the Minister to contradict what I have just said.

There has been in the Inchicore Works and also in the Limerick wagon works an outstanding tradition and inherited skills in the manufacture of railway wagons. I do not know what the future intention is but I certainly do not think this situation should be allowed to recur. I understand discussions are now taking place. I sincerely hope the outcome of these discussions will be satisfactory. The plain fact is that the placing of this contract abroad reflects no credit on CIE and, speaking for myself, it has totally undermined my confidence in and the high regard I had for CIE and which I publicly expressed in this House on numerous occasions.

While this Bill did not really permit the Minister to make a comprehensive statement on the affairs of CIE there were a number of matters to which he might have referred. However, a joint committee for the purpose of identifying possible corrective measures is now under way I understand and the Minister says :

A report on this aspect of the matter should be available early in the financial year 1971-72 and we will then be in a better position to decide what should be done about ClE's losses in that year.

I take it then that this report is expected in April, May or June and that the House will have an opportunity of discussing this report in conjunction with the annual Estimate or otherwise. May I take it from the Minister that we will have an opportunity of discussing this report?

We will? OK. It appears to me that there are two investigations being undertaken because the Minister also states :

A study in depth to establish what measures might be taken in the long-term to achieve a reduction in ClE's losses will also be undertaken.

Is this being undertaken by the same committee.

Simultaneously.

In other words we will have a short-term investigation and a long-term investigation?

We in the Fine Gael Party fully realise the serious financial position in which CIE finds itself. We are confused about the whole situation. We are alarmed at the manner in which the finances of CIE have deteriorated over the past 12 months. We will be expecting this report, when it is published, to be a comprehensive, detailed report and that the examination which has been undertaken will include an examination into all aspects of the affairs of CIE. I, personally, will be looking out for the findings of this commitee in relation particularly to the present management structure of CIE.

This news certainly comes as a great shock to me. There is no question of our opposing this Bill. I do not mind admitting that I was not quite clear when I saw this £2.98 million. I thought at first it was in substitution for the £2.65 million the Minister put in no further back than last year. This is the most surprising thing about the Minister's speech. He made an order on 31st December, 1969, and indeed we had a somewhat similar Bill to this last year but a very much less onerous proposition. I will not let the blame lie solely with the Minister and his Department. It goes back to what we have been saying from this side of the House about the Government—that the Government are really not attending to their work. They have been tied up in all kinds of other matters during the past 12 months and this is an example which bears that out conclusively. It is an appalling state of affairs, after all we heard from the Fianna Fáil Party in the late 1950s about what they would do in relation to transport, that in effect all they did was to dam up the waters and suddenly they flowed over the land and it is a super flood. I want to make a specific point. The Minister is not quite consistent. He says:

The present Bill is an ad hoc measure to deal with ClE's financial difficulties during the current financial year.

This is correct, but the Minister makes certain calculations in relation to the coming year which do not take into account factors which the Minister and his Department must know are already in the economic system. For example, there is no provision in these figures that he details in his speech for the inevitable increase in wages next year. It is an appalling position. There are many things one could say on this matter but I shall refer only to two major points. Once more, apparently the Government are reconsidering the study in depth regarding the various alternatives to existing policy in relation to the railways. The present Government reduced the rail mileage by approximately one-half. I do not know what more can be done in that connection which, so far as I can see, is the only way in which to cut railway expenditure.

However, what is devastating about this matter is that in the late 'fifties, when Fianna Fáil were in Opposition for a short time, they shouted from the roof tops about subsidies to CIE although most of the subsidies were for modernising the capital equipment of CIE. For many years afterwards the Dublin road passenger services paid their way by a substantial margin and showed a profit of £500,000. The Minister has stated that the net profit on the Dublin city services was only £61,000 in 1969-70 on a turn-over of £7.7 million. In my opinion one reason the Dublin road passenger services paid their way was that the bus drivers then were among the worst paid workers in the city, having regard to their onerous job. I am referring to the period 1963-65. The profit made by CIE can be attributed to the very poor wages paid to the drivers.

During that period bus fares were quite reasonable. This morning, appropriately for me in view of this discussion, I travelled by bus from Rathgar. I met a student whom I had known and we travelled together. In both cases we boarded the bus at Rathgar Church and got off the bus at Grafton Street. The student told me that had he gone to the next stage the fare would have been 1s 5d instead of the 1s fare to Grafton Street. There was much talk in the past about an increase of 1d in the bus fare for one stage but we now have the situation where an extra stage costs 5d. Students travelling to Belfield pay 1s from Marlborough Road. In pre-war times it was possible to travel from the Nelson Pillar to Marlborough Road by tram for 2d—a longer distance than Marlborough Road to Belfield.

That was 30 years ago.

The fare is six times what it cost in pre-war days. The most profitable part of ClE's operations is reaching a stage where it is putting itself out of business. The Minister has mentioned the reduced passenger numbers. Whatever losses there may have been in the last few years will be nothing in comparison to the reductions in the next six months. People who have no option but to use this service will keep a close eye on fares and stages and the receipts of the road passenger services in Dublin will drop substantially. I think the Minister shares my view. If the situation arises that it costs an extra 5d for a distance of 200 or 300 yards, people will opt to travel the shorter stage by bus and walk the extra distance. The extra fares may not matter to some people but the increased cost is bound to hit very many people, especially if they must undertake a journey twice each day.

In this connection one is very sorry for elderly workers who must use the bus services to get to work because they cannot afford a small car. However, I have heard that there is greater use of small cars around the city and this aggravates the traffic problem. The Minister has pointed out that this problem increases the costs of CIE.

I wish to revert to the more serious matter of miscalculation of estimates. I am giving the Minister credit that in this case it was a genuine miscalculation and that it was not a case that he deliberately back-pedalled 12 months ago, knowing that he was going to run into this trouble. The Minister might have had an idea at the back of his mind that they would be £500,000 out and that he would introduce the same kind of supplementary estimate this year as last year.

The Minister stated that the Estimates did not include any provision for the 12th round increase in salaries and wages. However, the 12th round was well on its way a year ago. It is astounding that on 31st December, 1969, the Minister should make an order which he had hoped would last for five years. This was the system in the past and it worked reasonably well. The Minister stated that CIE have a statutory obligation to break even. This is true under section 14 or 15 of the Road Transport Act, 1949. This was when the famous phrase "taking one year with another, it shall pay its way" was coined. There was almost identical wording used regarding the nationalisation of the British Railways and the coal industry. It was a piece of goodwill rather than a reality so far as this country was concerned.

The Minister said :

CIE have a statutory obligation to break even, taking one year with another, with the aid of the annual grant and the revised grant of £2.65 million was regarded as a realistic estimate of the minimum subsidy with which CIE could get by, during the five year period ending 31st March, 1974.

It is appalling that the estimates were more than 100 per cent out. Perhaps I am unduly optimistic about what can be done with estimates. I have had much experience in the preparation of estimates. I remember dealing with 14 in one year.

This really is an appalling result. It is true that CIE have a very big staff; they employ some 20,000 workers; but CIE are not the only transport system with a very big staff. As one secretary of the post office put it, the post office is in fact a transport organisation. There again we are back to 20,000 and odd workers and we have the 80,000 workers mentioned here who are employed by private transport of one sort and another, either those employed by firms or those people who are themselves engaged in road freight services.

Transport then is a manpower consuming form of activity and if you do not make provision for the inevitable increases that will come you are not going to be correct. I do not think that the Minister's figures in this regard are likely to be correct. He says :

Even with the two increases in fares and rates in June and October, 1970, which will bring in additional revenue to CIE estimated at £3.5 million in the current financial year and £6.6 million in 1971-72, CIE's net deficits in 1970-71 and 1971-72 will amount to £5.63 million and £4.79 million respectively.

Unless the Minister has made provision in those figures for an increase in wages next year—the Minister has not?

No, it is not there. I am not going to anticipate. That would be a very open-ended sort of operation.

This is not reality. We are living——

From day to day.

Quite true. Deputy, but worse than that we are living in a kind of never-never world, in a world that does not exist. We are living in a world of the imagination when we behave like this. The fact that one puts around a sum somewhere has never been taken as a firm commitment. All that this means simply is that we will have this again next year.

Or an increase in fares and rates.

Again! No other business make increases like CIE— 40 per cent in one year.

Now I want to come to a suggestion made by the Minister and this relates to something which the Government go in for in a big way. He said "I have agreed that the committee should enlist the aid of consultants in their task." The Minister may obtain a suitable firm of consultants in regard to this problem but the Government have employed firms of consultants in regard to problems about which those firms could know nothing. As we know, the Devlin Committee paid £100,000 to an American firm and they might as well have thrown their money into the Irish Sea. I think that was the expression I used before. How can you expect a firm of consultants to come over here to deal with this problem? It is possible for the Minister to get people with a knowledge of railway economics, if we say that that is where the major difficulty lies.

We have done that.

I accept the Minister's word on that. This business of bringing in consultants to deal with this, that and the other thing, reminds me somewhat of some famous politicians. I am not going to name them but it will be possible to identify them. There was one famous politician who thought he had solved a problem by making a rotund oratorical phrase about the matter. There was another famous politician who thought he had solved a problem when he established a company to deal with the matter. The Minister may be able to identify these two politicians without difficulty. However, this was not true and neither is it true that you can solve these kinds of problems by bringing in industrial consultants. All it does is to add to the Government's difficulty, add to inflation, because you will have the Government getting the banks to create more credit for them to pay these people.

The Deputy must have a fair idea of the problem and he will be aware of the options before you employ them. That is true. The Deputy knows the unpleasant nature of the option in this matter.

I certainly do. I want now to refer to two other matters. One is that some time ago an opportunity existed for CIE to make a substantial profit in relation to an operation which they could have carried out. This was at the time when, following the large scale close-down of railways throughout the country, the line from Harcourt Street to Bray was closed. The road which it was proposed to build from Dublin to Bray was not built but here was an ideal opportunity for the creation of a toll road from Dublin to Bray. It would have been a money spinner of the first order and it could have been done quite easily just as a similar thing was done in at least a couple of German cities. The bridge at Milltown was only wide enough to take one track but despite that there was quite a simple solution—have the traffic running in from Bray in the morning up to 2 p.m. and have it running from Dublin to Bray from 2 p.m. It would have been a real money spinner because anybody would have been prepared to pay 1s or 2s to get on to that road.

However, CIE in a great hurry sold the bridge at the end of Adelaide Road and then they sold bits and pieces of the land. Now I see that the matter has cropped up again and the suggestion has been made that they buy back these bits and pieces because this is a genuine necessity and it has been such for many years. Deputy O'Donnell said, and I accept his word for this although I do not know it of my own knowledge, that CIE have a very highly-geared staff. I must say that this operation did not show very astute planning or that much thought was given to the problem at that time. Of course other suggestions were made to the effect that they were anxious to make a capital profit by selling the land near Milltown for housing purposes. From a social point of view there was no comparison between that and selling off these bits and pieces of railroad. Both from a social point of view and an economic point of view it would have been ideal if CIE had just taken up the tracks and put a skin on the railroad because then you would have had a good road with an excellent foundation. Everybody knows that there is no better foundation for a road than the bed of a railroad.

One other matter which was referred to by Deputy O'Donnell and which has caused a great deal of perturbation was the placing abroad of a contract for rolling stock to the value of £2½ million. I have heard no suggestion from anybody that this job could not have been done at home. It has been said that whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad. I get the impression that the Government do not seem to have been able to think out any problem fully over the last 12 months. We had the example of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara who spent £500,000 on boats made in France. Indeed, I believe they are by no means good. There were at least a couple of boat-building yards in this country which could have filled that contract quite efficiently.

The way I look at these problems is that in this country we do not have many opportunities for what would be called semi-heavy industries—certainly it is not light industry—and we ought to avail of any opportunity to get people employed in them.

There are men in the railway yards here in various parts of the country, at Kingsbridge, at Dundalk and at Limerick, who have long experience of this kind of work and who could have done the job. I am not "with" this kind of thing. When a contract of that size is involved, the matter is primarily one for judgment and the ultimate judgment must be given by the Government. Of course, we must not forget that current Government expenditure is almost £500 million this year. I notice from the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the figure for last year was £383 million whereas this year we are told by the Minister for Finance that the amount is £491 million. The Government complain about the difficulties that are created for them by way of wage increases while their own expenditure is up by almost 30 per cent in one year.

The House has no option but to support this Bill so that a major social service might be kept going. However, I would have had more respect for the Minister had he come in this morning and said "I am trying to provide at least for this year and next year" instead of saying that the present Bill is an ad hoc measure to deal with CIE's financial difficulties during the current year. It is evident that the Minister's Department are not a planning Department at all. I have been accused of not believing in planning but I certainly believe in making provision for the following year. I believe also in various other forms of planning. There is no use in the Minister coming in here in the ninth month of a year seeking moneys to cover the 12 months. That is not proper estimating and neither is it a proper method of approach. I am not inclined to lay the blame unduly on the Minister and on his Department because the Government as a whole must bear a good deal of the blame.

Many people have been somewhat naive about this Transport Bill. If we look back to the basic principles on which CIE were established, we must realise that they were never intended to pay their way; that they were meant always to be subsidised in one way or another. It is inevitable that a firm such as CIE should be subsidised from the Exchequer. Personally, I have qualms about the utilisation of particular subsidies which CIE are receiving. I have certain reservations, but it would be grossly unfair for the Minister, or even for CIE, to contemplate the imposition of further extravagant increases in fares in order to offset the deficit in the company's financial position.

I agree with what Deputy O'Donovan said about certain congested traffic areas. The burden of fares does not bear very heavily on those in the higher income bracket, because most of these people do not use public transport, but it bears most on old people and on people in the middle class sector. These are the people about whom I have spoken here on numerous occasions. On each occasion CIE decided to increase fares, it was these people who suffered most. These are the people who cannot afford the luxury of a car or of any transport other than public transport. It is logical to believe that for many years to come CIE will have to be subsidised to a large extent, possibly to a larger extent than is the case at present because of the particular operations of the company.

Having said that, I must say in support of the company that no private concern would be capable of operating the type of service they operate. No private concern would be capable of operating a service with the regularity of the CIE service. Granted, there are deficiencies here and there, but we must admit the service operates in a reasonably effective way.

Up to now we were always led to believe the city bus services were subsidising the rural services. The city bus services show a profit. Admittedly it is not a large profit, but the fact that there is profit is good especially when we remember the problems associated with city transport, particularly traffic congestion. Any evening between 4.50 p.m. and 6.10 p.m. one can see cross-city buses being stopped in the city for a period of 20 or 40 minutes. This is indicative of bad planning on the part of the Departments concerned. The Minister for Transport and Power, in co-operation with the Minister for Local Government, must consider what is to be done about relieving congestion in Dublin city. We have no indication of what is being done to alleviate the problem to ensure that people on their way to or from work would not be delayed for up to three-quarters of an hour.

It has been suggested that a ring road be built around the city. I suggest that if the railways are CIE's main problem, as they obviously are, we should prevent cars from coming into the city centre, provide parking for them on the outskirts and use either bus or train for the remainder of the journey. If that should be considered to be unsatisfactory, I would suggest that we use the present railways as a type of ring road. This can be done. If one studies the type of railway system we have, one will realise that there would be no obstacle to using the railways in this manner. It could be done in conjunction with some use of private roads. This would relieve traffic congestion-the congestion that is becoming greater day by day and which is causing so much concern to those people who must travel across the city every day at peak hours.

Reference has been made here to the order that CIE placed abroad. This was disgraceful. We are today voting a subsidy for CIE. The order was placed abroad, not particularly at the behest of CIE, and I think the trade unions merit a considerable amount of criticism here. A person appeared on television to explain the trade union position, but I felt he was unable to account for the position in which the trade union found themselves. Again I do not want to place the blame solely on them, because we knew quite well at least two years ago that these carriages were required. If we did know and if we also knew there was a shortage of labour, did we do anything specific about it? We should have formulated some plan at that time to train unskilled people, and the trade union should have co-operated in accepting these people who would be responsible for and capable of carrying out the duties of coach builders. It is disgraceful that such a large amount of money should be sent abroad when we are preaching here daily that as much capital as possible should be kept within the country.

There was another example of this in relation to Dublin Airport when the curtains for the Boeings were found to have been made in Britain. I brought this state of affairs to the notice of the Minister and the reply at that time was that nobody in Ireland tendered low enough for them. That is all right if we want to accept the principle that Irish companies, having to import raw materials in certain cases, should be made to compete with all foreign industries, but I believe we should keep as much work as possible in the country and help to keep our workers at home.

I would ask the Minister to have all these matters reconsidered at Government level. We should not allow ourselves to be led by civil servants or people employed in the upper echelons of CIE into believing that the decision was necessary because we have not got the facilities available here. They could be made available. We did it before when it was even more necessary. We did it when Mr. Seen Lemass advocated the raising of productivity in industry. There is no reason why, in the technical world in which we live today, something similar could not be achieved which would enable this work to be done at home. This is preferable to allowing money to be extracted from the Exchequer to subsidise people in England who would be living softly at the expense of our own people. Whoever is responsible for this decision should take steps to reverse it so that there would be no necessity to send these orders abroad.

I should like to say something about the road haulage section of CIE which we are obviously subsidising here. The road freight section of CIE could be criticised for the decision to ask outside hauliers to quote for particular types of work, country work, if they are licensed hauliers, and local work, if not, and then paying them 4s to 5s per ton less or else they will not get the work. We have had experience of CIE paying at the rate of 12s, 15s and even up to £1 a ton less on a particular run to Sligo. If CIE can do this and then come into this House and ask us to subsidise them, there is no way in which the ordinary citizen can be convinced that there is a proper managerial system in operation.

There is no subsidy towards road freight.

If that is so, that is acceptable but——

Except in the overall.

——I want to refer to the point made made in the Minister's speech :

Nevertheless, the Government are gravely disturbed by the board's progressively deteriorating financial position.

This is natural, but it is only right and proper that some outside person who knows the working of private concerns should be injected into CIE, and that this idea that the Government can advocate at any time that subsidies will be there and will be made available to CIE if they have a financial loss, will be done away with. It is the Minister's duty and that of his Department to safeguard the interest of the taxpayer, and I would ask him fervently to take a stem look at the individuals in CIE, those in the upper echelons who are earning good salaries and getting handsome increases from time to time; some of them are very competent, but most of them are not fulfilling the role they have been asked to take and are living for the day when they will retire on a large pension, although CIE will still have a substantial loss. People in private concerns should be brought into CIE with the aim of making this section pay and CIE as a whole pay, so that not alone will the city bus services pay their way but that the rural bus services will at least break even.

The rural bus services are more profitable than the city bus services.

If the Minister gives me an undertaking that he himself will investigate these individuals, as I know he is capable of doing, I personally will be happy and will have no reluctance whatsoever in advocating that a maximum sum of £2.98 million be allocated towards the additional subsidisation of CIE. I have no hesitation in saying that unless progressive methods are employed by CIE further subsidies will be required in the future because no effort is being made in CIE to make it pay. As I said at the outset I realise CIE was never meant to pay. I have some reservations about how this £2.98 million will be used and I would ask the Minister to investigate.

The Minister told the House yesterday that consultants have been employed to make a study of what is to be done about the railway section of CIE. I am sure these consultants are very honourable people. We have had experience of consultants in other State bodies and the majority of State bodies responded progressively to the suggestions and advice given by these consultants and I am sure CIE will do the same. The last time they were called in to make a study of CIE the consultants had to be kicked out because their time and motion study was on themselves rather than on the workers in CIE.

It has been suggested that CIE have a very efficient staff and although I know there are some very efficient people in CIE I would not say the staff are 100 per cent efficient. I do not make these comments in a derogatory fashion but I feel CIE needs waking up and it is the responsibility of the Minister to do this.

The Minister is looking for a subsidy to keep the wheels of CIE moving. Before we hand over sums of money like this we are entitled to criticise and question aspects of CIE. Increased labour costs have been blamed for the increases, but why are labour costs up? Is it not due to increases in the cost of living? I believe this is what has led to these demands.

CIE have increased their fares, but they are pricing themselves out of existence. One cannot drive along any road without seeing someone thumbing a lift. The vast majority of people simply cannot afford to travel by CIE. A sizeable number of people are employed in CIE but CIE could operate with half the number of top executives, the people earning big money, who are given State cars to come and go to work. I have seen these State cars used on an election day.

This matter has nothing to do with the Bill before the House.

If money is payable to keep the wheels of State cars going I should like to see in what direction they are used.

The Deputy must not pursue that line.

Deputy Coogan is speaking about the chairmen of public companies who have State cars which are used by Fianna Fáil at election time.

We know Ministers blatantly do that but they do not put posters on the cars as happens to CIE cars. We have taken the names of the gentlemen concerned, if not the registration numbers.

Traffic congestion has been given as a reason for losses incurred by CIE. The Minister should look into the possibility of staggering business hours. It is not an impossible task and it would ease congestion.

There are rumblings about the proposed closing of railway lines in the west. It is not the first time that railway lines in the west have been closed. One of the first things Fianna Fáil did when they got back into power was to close the Clifden-Galway line. This was a very retrograde step because the amount of tourist traffic in that area in the summer would more than justify the line being kept open. Tourism is the greatest money spinner in the west and if the Clifden-Galway line had been retained it would have more than paid for itself. There is another aspect which will affect CIE—I do not know whether the Chair will rule me out of order for mentioning this——

The Deputy should not anticipate the Chair.

I refer to the Government crisis which has threatened and frightened people——

The Deputy must not refer to this matter on this measure.

I am referring to the reasons why traffic has not been as good as it should have been. It is all very well for the Minister to smile and laugh but many a hotelier in the west of Ireland will not laugh like that. Now we have the threat of the barbed wire going up and the opening of internment camps.

The Deputy must keep to the legislation before the House.

The trains will be used to take them down to the Curragh.

But unfortunately they will be empty on the return journey. The point I am trying to make is that I do not want tourists, who will help the wheels of CIE to keep turning, to be frightened about coming here.

If there is to be any cutting back in CIE it should be at the top. It is not right to look at the workers and say that the money is being eaten up by them. I was sorry to hear one speaker say that CIE was never meant to pay. Is that the thinking at Government level? It is very poor thinking on the part of the Government if that is their attitude

While the wheels of CIE must be kept moving we must ensure that there is no choke-up along the line. Losses are incurred on city services because of traffic congestion but if business hours could be staggered CIE would not lose money because of this congestion.

I should be grateful if the Minister would look into the matters I have mentioned especially the position with regard to staff cars and the gentlemen who sit in swivel chairs and eat up a great deal of the money.

Debate adjourned.
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