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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 16 Feb 1971

Vol. 251 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Bord na Móna (Superannuation) Bill, 1970: First Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed:
That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to enable Bord na Móna to pay more than half the contributions to the fund of any superannuation scheme established under section 6 of the Turf Development Act, 1953.
—(Deputy Tully.)

The object of the Bill is described in the Long Title as "an Act to enable Bord na Móna to pay more than half the contributions to the fund of any superannuation scheme established under section 6 of the Turf Development Act, 1953." An examination of the pensions payable under the Bord na Móna Superannuation Scheme of 1963, which was debated at length in Dáil Éireann on 28th March, 1963, clearly reveals that it is not possible for manual workers in Bord na Móna, especially non-craftsmen, to obtain a reasonable pension so long as they are obliged to pay 50 per cent of the cost of benefits. This is so because many of the workers concerned were employed by Bord na Móna before the 1963 superannuation scheme came into operation. In effect, contributions have to be paid in respect of years of service before the commencement of the schemes of 1963 and 1970. In all fairness, the cost of "prior service" should be borne by Bord na Móna but this is not possible under the 50-50 rule in the Turf Development Act of 1953. Moreover, provision was made in the 1963 superannuation scheme to enable Bord na Móna workers on promotion to be admitted to the "staff" scheme of 1956. This required a transfer contribution to be made to the staff scheme with a consequential drain on the superannuation fund. This situation cannot be remedied unless Bord na Móna are entitled to pay the difference between the appropriate transfer contributions. By and large, there is one-way traffic on transfers.

When the superannuation scheme of 1963 was debated in Dáil Éireann on 28th March, 1963, it was emphasised that the scheme did not make provision for reasonable or adequate benefits and when the scheme was reviewed by the trade unions in 1968, it became abundantly clear that a reasonable scale of benefits could not be provided unless Bord na Móna paid, and was permitted to pay, more than half the cost of the scheme. Details of pension payments in Bord na Móna were given in a reply to a Parliamentary Question on 18th December, 1969.

On 22nd September, 1969, Bord na Móna offered proposals for increased pensions to the trade unions and a cross section of the pensions in payment and payable were furnished in a parliamentary reply on 18th December of that year. While it is quite clear that the new pensions are somewhat higher than the former pensions, which the Minister's predecessor assured the Dáil were adequate, nevertheless, the gratuity pension scale, after 40 years service, is very low.

There are grounds for believing that outline pension proposals—with provision for the new gratuity—were sent to Bord na Móna by the Department of Transport and Power in 1969. One wonders if it is a coincidence that the benefits in the new Bord na Móna scheme—with one exception—are almost identical to the proposals for a non-contributory pension scheme for forestry workers and other State employees, offered to the trade unions by the Department of Finance on the 25th November, 1969. Details of the State non-contributory scheme were given in reply to a Dáil Question on 28th April, 1970.

The latest Bord na Móna contributory scheme and the State employees non-contributory scheme have an almost identical range of benefits and it is unfair that Bord na Móna workers should be obliged to pay £1 a week and more for superannuation benefits which have been agreed for State employees free. The maximum gratuity under the Bord na Móna scheme is a year's pay after 30 years as compared with a year's pay at 30 years rising to one and half year's pay in the State scheme.

Just in case anyone suggests that Bord na Móna workers are not paying very much may I point out that a man earning under £13 10s will pay 56p per week, a man earning £22 15s will pay 96p, which is almost £1 a week, and a man earning £43 a week will pay £1 17s 6d or £1.80. I cannot see why Bord na Móna workers should be singled out and dealt with in this way just because the State scheme, which is not a good one by any means, allows a pension or a gratuity which is much higher than that being offered by Bord na Móna and as far as the workers are concerned there is no question of their paying for it. We are asking here that Bord na Móna be allowed to increase their share of what has to be paid so that the pension and the gratuity can be increased without having to increase the amount to be paid by the workers out of their wages. It is as simple as that. I recommend that the Bill be accepted by the House.

I want to second this proposal. One of the major difficulties about pensions for people working in semi-State bodies has been the maligning influence of the pensions section of the Department of Finance. The greatest difficulty has arisen time and again in connection with some of the oldest semi-State bodies. The Minister and I last year improved matters for the workers in the ESB. That was not very much out of turn because it was the oldest of those bodies. One of the difficulties now, as I see it, is that the terms of the schemes for certain of the new bodies, like Telefís Éireann, are much better than the terms of the scheme in Bord na Móna. It is quite unfair where men are working for a long time in a body, which is now as old as Bord na Móna is, and is in existence for 34 years although the pension scheme is not anything like that period in existence, to ask them to make those high contributions. Accordingly, if we want to improve the pensions for those people the only way it can be done is by enabling the body itself to pay more than it is paying at present.

We all know that pension schemes in most organisations are in fact non-contributory and it is quite unfair, where people have long service in a body like Bord na Móna, that they should be expected to start late in life to make contributions sufficient to bring their contributions up to what they would have been if they had started to contribute when they began working with the organisation. Indeed until the recent improvement in the ESB this resulted in people not joining at all until the scheme came into full operation. The existing contribution of 4 per cent is as much as could reasonably be expected. It is roughly £1 a week where a person is earning about £20 a week. This, on top of the other deductions which are made, including deductions for income tax, is a very substantial contribution.

Most institutions, perhaps with the exception of the secondary teachers, have non-contributory pension schemes. It is strange that bodies like secondary teachers and the workers in Bord na Móna, who are in a relatively weak position, instead of being treated fairly are treated quite unfairly. All workers should be treated alike. I agree with what my colleague, Deputy Tully, said that there is an extraordinary resentment in regard to the proposals which have come forward for certain workers associated directly with the State. This is quite inequitable.

I want, very briefly, to support the motion that leave be granted to introduce this Bill. I want also to say that the explanation for this Bill, which has been given by Deputy Tully, is one which every Deputy who has a knowledge of or has any intimate connection with Bord na Móna and its employees, will very generously contribute to.

The Fine Gael Party support this measure knowing and realising that the proposal therein will, as suggested by Deputy Tully, undoubtedly remove what appears to be a genuine grievance in so far as the employees of Bord na Móna are concerned. I recall with great pride the very early days of Bord na Móna and indeed prior to the establishment of Bord na Móna during the years of the old and well remembered Turf Development Board. The Minister for Transport and Power, and indeed every other Minister down the years, has paid tribute to the progress that has been made and the developments that have been undertaken in relation to the activities of both the old Turf Development Board and Bord na Móna.

I am sure the Minister will agree with me when I say that whilst tributes have been paid to the outstanding successes which have taken place in relation to the development of boglands and the activities of Bord na Móna, this is mainly due to the fact that the employees of Bord na Móna can be described as specialised workers, specialised in their sphere of activities, specialised in the early stages in the footing of turf, specialised in later years in the modern machinery which is used in all major bogs. In addition to that they are specialised in the execution of the various types of drainage work which are necessary.

We must, however, take into consideration that while Bord na Móna were given credit for outstanding developments, very rarely did we hear any expression of tribute to the ordinary workers who participated in the various development schemes of Bord na Móna. It is a very poor tribute to those workers who have been part of the body and soul of the board from the early days to be treated in this way. All this Bill of Deputy Tully's requires is that Bord na Móna be permitted to pay more, to give greater recognition, to be more honourable, to express in a very practical way their appreciation of long and loyal service of devoted men who are keenly interested and who are specialists in the work which they perform for Bord na Móna.

It must be borne in mind that those workers, specialists as they are, are living and working convenient to the various schemes of development of the board. I know, however, of cases in my own constituency and I am sure the same is true in regard to Kildare and elsewhere, where some workers have to travel considerable distances to work. Out of an average wage of £20 per week it is most unreasonable that those workers should be obliged to pay £1 a week towards the superannuation fund. Other employees in semi-State concerns are not penalised to the extent to which Bord na Móna workers are. It would be appropriate to ask the Minister for Finance, who in the long run will have the responsibility for implementing favourable or unfavourable schemes, why those workers should be penalised.

The Bord na Móna worker is being penalised by being asked to pay more into his pension fund than employees of other semi-State bodies have to pay. This is absolutely unjust and reflects very poor appreciation of the industry and keen interest shown by Bord na Móna workers down through the years. I am sure very few of the old Turf Development Board workers are still in the service of the board but nevertheless we are very conscious of the loyal service and hard work of the people for whom we speak. It is very doubtful if the employees of any other semi-State concern have to work as hard and as determinedly as have Bord na Móna workers. Why, therefore, should the Bord na Móna worker be the victim of unreasonable and unjust treatment?

On any occasion that money was sought in this House for Bord na Móna —while Deputies may have been critical as to the expenditure of the money—never once did a Deputy say that money should not be voted to Bord na Móna. If the Minister for Transport and Power has any doubts as to the anxiety of this House to provide money for this laudable purpose, all he has to do is to permit Bord na Móna to act in a Christian manner in so far as catering for workers who have given good and loyal service is concerned. Many workers who receive approximately £20 per week in wages have large families for whom they must provide and, in addition, they must pay rent on the graded rent system. Most of them have to run a car or a motor cycle to get them to and from their work. With the increase in the motor tax and with the increase in the price of petrol, the Bord na Móna worker has to face ever-increasing expenditure. Now he is singled out to make a greater contribution towards his pension fund than other semi-State employees.

I have heard the Minister for Transport and Power pay tribute in various parts of the country to Bord na Móna and its workers. Here is an opportunity for him to prove that he meant those tributes. This is his opportunity to do something practical, something which will assist the Bord na Móna worker to obtain a reasonable pension without being penalised for it during his working years from the point of view of an unreasonably high contribution towards that pension.

All this Bill seeks is that Bord na Móna will pay more. I venture to say that, if the members of Bord na Móna had the opportunity, they would view this measure with sympathy and understanding. Every intelligent citizen would associate himself with that sympathy and understanding in the knowledge of the duties which must be undertaken, by day or by night, by Bord na Móna workers. I venture to say that Bord na Móna would like to be generous to their workers—with the permission of the Minister for Transport and Power and the approval of the Minister for Finance.

It can be said—not with pride or credit—that for many years Bord na Móna workers have had to work under adverse conditions, conditions which the trade unions have gradually improved. Deputy Tully is commonly known as the friend of those associated with Bord na Móna. I should like to be associated, too, with this Bill which seeks justice and fair play for those workers. No matter what may have been decided by the top brass of Bord na Móna or by the Department of Finance, I urge the Minister for Transport and Power to be courageous and to demonstrate his recognition of the loyal service of Bord na Móna workers by accepting this Bill.

The standard of living and income of some hundreds of Bord na Móna workers depend on the reception this Bill is given by the Minister for Transport and Power. I view with alarm and amazement the fact that the Bord na Móna worker is singled out for unreasonable treatment. This is the Minister's opportunity to translate his lipservice to those workers into positive action on their behalf. This will be appreciated not alone by the workers concerned but also by their wives and families.

Acting Chairman

I am sorry, I am carrying out the instructions passed on to me. I am calling on the Minister now.

The first comment I should like to make on the Bill is that it is now in my view, without being impolite, redundant and superfluous having regard to the substantial amendment in the Bord na Móna superannuation scheme which I introduced after consultation with Bord na Móna and with the trade unions concerned who consulted with Bord na Móna——

Before this Bill was introduced?

As from the 4th June, 1970. This Bill was introduced in December, 1969. I personally set in train the negotiations in September, 1969 before the Bill was introduced to secure the substantially increased benefits that now are open to Bord na Móna pensioners and are operative from 4th June, 1970. This was done after very detailed consultation with the trade unions concerned and since the introduction of the substantially revised scheme last June I have had no further representations from the trade unions concerned or from the workers concerned. I would say to the House in all common sense to let this very improved scheme work and see how it eventuates.

I am sorry to interrupt but the Minister is not stating facts. What he is saying is not true, simply not true.

Is the Deputy disputing that this revised scheme has been adopted after very thorough consultation with the trade unions concerned?

The revised scheme has been suggested by one side and has been agreed on by the other and if that is what the Minister is talking about he should say so and it is not in operation.

My information is that the scheme is effective from the 4th June of last year.

Will be.

This is 1971.

But, sure, the one from the State is not in operation either and it was the 1st January, 1970.

No, but the scheme is now operative from 4th June, 1970. The point I am making is that the Bill is now irrelevant having regard to the substantial revision of the existing scheme that has been made to operate from 4th June, 1970.

I am saying that is not correct and the Minister should know that is not correct.

This happens to be correct and I shall spell it out. I agree that prior to the revision of the scheme there were anomalies particularly in regard to the pre-1963 pensioners, pensioners who were undoubtedly getting low superannuation. We have remedied that now by the revision of the scheme to operate from 4th June, 1970. I shall spell out the details of this scheme. The amendments have involved scrapping the old unit scheme which was the cause of the anomalies that existed prior to this. The new scheme will enable a single employee with full service of 40 years to earn a pension of about half his retiring pay, which is in line with superannuation generally throughout the service. The Deputy should be aware of this because his own particular union participated in these negotiations. A retired Bord na Móna manual worker will also get a retirement gratuity in addition to the 50 per cent superannuation——

Would the Minister say what he means by retirement pay? Does he not, in fact, mean the last year he was employed or an average of three years?

I am coming to that.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should allow the Minister to make his statement.

A single manual employee with full service of 40 years can earn a pension now of about half his retiring pay. He will also be able to get a retirement gratuity equal to his annual retiring wage provided he has 30 years service. That is on the gratuity end. A married man would, of course, benefit by the higher social welfare payments and his total income on pension could be considerably more than half his retiring pay.

But not from Bord na Móna.

I am talking about the reality of the matter, if the Deputy would let me finish.

Deputy Flanagan was talking about a man earning £20 a week and speculating as to what his pension would be and speculating about the injustice that would accrue to such a person. Deputy Flanagan it appears is not aware of this specific revision of the code that has taken place. A married man retiring after 40 years service on a wage of £20 a week will now get a lump sum of £1,040. His total weekly pension will be £12.62½ a week to age 70 years and £13.50 a week thereafter.

That includes social welfare benefit.

Of course it does but this applies all round. I am talking about what goes into his pocket. Of course it is obvious it includes that. The Deputy is not a fool. Of course it includes that. I am talking about the reality of what goes into the worker's pocket.

That does not apply to local authority superannuation or private employers.

I am talking about the reality of what goes into the worker's pocket. It is £12.62½ a week to age 70 and £13.50 a week thereafter. This is the £20 a week man. This is way ahead of 50 per cent which is the average superannuation obtaining throughout the various State services and private industry and generally in regard to superannuation. This is the case because acknowledging the fact of Bord na Móna's employees up and down type of income by reason of the nature of this particular type of work there is 30 per cent over the basic wage included for superannuation purposes. This is the reason why Bord na Móna workers, in fact, have a better superannuation deal in terms of money into pocket as far as superannuation is concerned.

Practically all of them get production bonuses so they are earning much more than plus 30 per cent when they are working. The Minister either does not know the situation or he is not telling the truth.

I know a fair bit about it because I happened to initiate this scheme. I agree that Deputy Tully helped a lot in the matter by putting down Parliamentary Questions and as a result of his Parliamentary Questions and my investigations we proceeded to a revision of the superannuation scheme. This revision was negotiated after consultation with the trade unions and it is now operative and renders this particular Bill of Deputy Tully's, in my view, redundant and superfluous.

It is a poor substitution for what the workers expected to get.

Having stated the situation, I should like to ask Deputy Tully and the House to let this work itself out, see how it operates. It is only operating as and from June of last year. It is a substantial improvement within the framework of the existing scheme. There is no need for legislation. We can provide the sort of substantial pension I have just mentioned and this can be done adequately within the existing scheme. I see no need for this legislation.

I acknowledge the help that was given by Deputy Tully in this matter and the fact that my investigations show that the scheme under the old unit system led to some shocking anomalies in regard to particular pensioners. My suggestion to the House is that we give this revised scheme a chance to work. The trade unions concerned apparently, in so far as correspondence to me is concerned, appear to be in agreement with the scheme as revised and are prepared to give it a chance.

That is not the position as I know it. My trade union, at any rate, is not satisfied with what happened.

Acting Chairman

Is Deputy Tully withdrawing the Bill?

No, I am not.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 37; Níl, 54.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fox, Billy.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Lawrence.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Taylor, Francis.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Cluskey and Kavanagh; Níl, Deputies Andrews and Meaney.
Question declared lost.
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