Vol. 252 No. 5
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he has any plans to initiate a compulsory pension scheme to cover widows and orphans; if so, if this scheme will be State guaranteed; and if he will ensure that a widow's pension is based on her husband's salary or pension at the time of his death.
9.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will arrange that widows' pensions be revised annually and adjusted in accordance with any national wage increase granted.
10.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that there are over 4,000 widows in Limerick; and that their pensions are completely inadequate; and what action he proposes to take to remedy this situation.
11.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he has received representations from the Association of Widows in Ireland for the reform of the present pension scheme; and, if so, what action he proposes to take in regard to them.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 9, 10 and 11 together.
An Taoiseach has transmitted to me for consideration representations which he received from the Cork Branch of the Association of Widows in Ireland containing an outline of proposals relating to the establishment of a compulsory pension scheme to cover widows and orphans and requesting certain improvements in the existing scheme of widows' and orphans' pensions applicable in the case of survivors of persons who had not been in insurable employment. I have also received, through the Minister for Local Government, a copy of the same representations from the Galway Branch of the Association of Widows. These representations are being considered in my Department and I will reply to them shortly. In the meantime may I remind the Deputy that there is already in existence, in addition to the non-contributory widow's and orphans' pension scheme, which is of general application but subject to a means test, a scheme of compulsory social insurance which provides for widows' and orphans' pensions? This scheme, which is, of course, State guaranteed and financed by contributions from employers, employees and the State, applies to all employees engaged under a contract of service whose remuneration does not exceed £1,200 a year, as well as to employees in higher remuneration brackets who have opted to continue in insurance on a voluntarly basis. As I stated recently in reply to a Dáil question on the subject, there are proposals before the Government at the moment in regard to raising the remuneration limit and, indeed, as I indicated at the time, I hope to be in a position to abolish it altogether in due course, thus providing compulsory social insurance cover for, inter alia, widows' and orphans' pensions for all persons employed under a contract of service.
May I also remind the Deputy that, as I have so often pointed out in the past, both the contributory and the non-contributory scheme of widow's and orphan's pension are under constant review with a view to effecting such improvements in them from time to time as may be practicable and feasible within the means available? In particular, I would point out that apart from general improvements in these schemes in relation to their coverage, application or the considerations under which they are available increases in the rates of widows' contributory and non-contributory pensions have over the past 11 years far exceeded the increase in the cost of living. For example, a widow with two qualified children in receipt of a contributory pension in 1959 received £2.3 weekly. Today such a widow receives £6.3, while the cost of living rose by only 67 per cent over the same period. Widows in receipt of non-contributory pensions have done even better: such a widow with two qualified children in 1959 received £1.92½ while today she would receive £5.75, an increase of almost 200 per cent. Other important improvements in the existing schemes of widow's and orphan's pension, to mention but a few, have been the increase of the age limit for qualified children to 18 years or to 21 years if still attending school or university, substantial liberalisation of the means test in the case of non-contributory pensions, especially on the basis of assessing the annual value of capital and in the amount of earnings which may be disregarded as means in the case of a widow with children. Moreover, almost seven years ago the minimum age of entitlement to a non-contributory widow's pension in the case of a widow with no children was abolished—there never was such a limit in the case of contributory widows' pensions. This compares more than favourably with the position in Great Britain and Northern Ireland where a minimum age of 50 years applicable in such cases even in respect of contributory pensions is only now being reduced to 40 years, effective from 1st April next. Such a minimum age limit in relation to contributory widows' pensions is common practice on the Continent of Europe also.
I may mention too that of the 62,500 widows in the State who are 70 years of age or over, some 48,250 are in receipt of pensions from my Department, either old age pensions or contributory widow's pensions and all of these are eligible for free travel and, subject to prescribed conditions, for free electricity and free wireless or television licences. And here I must say that I do not accept the statement in the Deputy's third question that pensions paid to widows in Limerick, which are at the same rate as those paid elsewhere, are completely inadequate, nor can I accept the inference in the question that the position of widows in Limerick is such as to call for some special action on their behalf to the exclusion of all other widows or necessitous individuals or families in the State.
The Deputy will find a fuller account in the Third Programme for Economic and Social Development, with which I am sure he is familiar, of the improvements which have been effected in the various income maintenance services, and in the widows' pensions schemes in particular, in the State between 1958 and 1968, and he will be able to refresh his memory on the further substantial improvements which were effected in 1969 and 1970 in the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts of those years.
He will also find in the Third Programme for Economic and Social Development the clearly declared aim of the Government to continue to devote an increasing proportion of growing national resources to the extension and improvement of the income maintenance services until they can be regarded as adequate in the light of costs and standards of living in this country and the levels set by international practice and ratified in international instruments. As heretofore, the improvement in these services will be achieved by increasing the rates of social assistance and social insurance payments, by changes in the coverage and application of the services and, where appropriate, by introducing new services.
In the allocation of national resources to social welfare services the Government will strive to maintain an equitable balance between different classes —urban and rural, industrial and agricultural, employees and self-employed. As far as possible services will be financed by methods of insurance so that benefits may be granted without test of need or means. Where such tests are necessary—as they are in some schemes so as to avoid wasteful dispersal of resources and unnecessary burdens on the Exchequer and on the economy—they will continue to be liberalised as far as possible. In this field the Government have, of course, no desire——
The Minister and his officials must have damn little to do——
Let him carry on.
——to put out that nonsense.
Order.
——to encroach on private efforts and, instead, welcome the contributions which these, including those of volunteer societies——
Is this a Fianna Fáil election address?
This is the speech he was going to make at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis.
——make to social welfare and in this respect too they particularly welcome the satisfactory growth in recent years of private pension schemes, both retirement and survivors', in business and industry.
Finally, may I point out that my Department have for some time past been engaged in a detailed examination of all aspects of the social insurance and social assistance schemes with a view to determining the further reforms and improvements which might be made? As a result, new schemes of invalidity and retirement pension and a scheme to assist deserted wives and families were introduced last October and a scheme of payment of death grants in respect of insured persons and their dependants will become operative towards the end of this month. Work is in hand at present on, amongst other matters, the preparation of schemes of pay-related unemployment and disability benefit and I am afraid that pay-related pensions must wait until these schemes are soundly established.
This is a 15 round contest and he will go the distance.
I am answering four questions.
I am sorry for causing so much trouble.
Order.
Indeed, an even more urgent task may well be the extension of the existing compulsory insurance scheme and the introduction of compulsory or voluntary insurance for the self-employed or for particular classes of self-employed, including farmers, who are not provided with such cover at present and who cannot, therefore, avail themselves of social insurance schemes to provide against sickness, old age, or for widows' and orphans' pensions. In this connection, I hasten to add that the introduction of compulsory or voluntary insurance schemes to meet the needs of the self-employed poses many difficult problems in relation to finance and administration and I do not see any ready or quick solutions. I have given a very adequate reply.
May I thank the Minister for his confused reply but I want to ask him one simple question? Is he aware that what he is giving at present to any widow, whatever he has said in his 20, 30 or 40 page reply of civil service script, bears no relationship to what is needed by the unfortunate widow who is trying to live on the pittance he is giving her? If he says that there is free electricity for widows he knows nothing whatever about the subject because free electricity is limited to 100 units. There is no such thing as free electricity for widows.
We cannot debate this whole question.
Surely he is entitled to ask a supplementary question? The Minister's answer took nearly 20 minutes.
Would Deputy Cluskey contain himself for a moment?
Would the Chair try to be a little impartial? You allowed the Minister to carry on in a disgraceful manner and make a Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis speech.
Would Deputy Cluskey behave himself? He is disorderly.
Would the Chair try to be impartial?
Deputy Coughlan is entitled to put a question but he is not entitled to make a speech.
Surely the Minister made two speeches?
Admittedly they were not very good speeches, but they were speeches.
They would not last at the Ard-Fheis. Surely the Minister knows that he is deceiving the House in the statement he has made? I want to know what does he mean when he says legislation will be introduced shortly. How long is "shortly"? Will the Minister reply? I want a reply.
If I may reply to some of the points made, I deliberately gave a very full reply to four questions all of which are designed to mislead the people into the belief that we have no regard for the people to whom these payments are made.
You have not.
Let me remind Deputy Coughlan that, just to take the last Budget, in that Budget the extra payments to widows amounted to £1,190,000. That is not chicken feed. When the Deputy comes in here to ask questions as if we are doing nothing, I have the right to give a full reply.
What is the use in the Minister telling us he gave that amount of money when it should have been four or five times that amount? Is not that the situation?
Arising from the Minister's lengthy reply, will he agree that the Association of Widows of Ireland, whether they speak for contributory or non-contributory pensioners, have a just case and is he prepared to come to their aid in the next Budget?
I think I answered that question.
There was so much in the reply that I could not grasp it all.
The greatest assurance the Deputy has that all persons coming under the social welfare code and, indeed, some of those who have not yet come under it, will be looked after in the future, is our past record.
That is not good enough.
Question No. 12 to the Minister for Finance. We cannot discuss this.
You allowed the Minister ten minutes to reply and surely we are entitled to ask supplementary questions?
The Minister was replying to four questions.
I am entitled to ask a supplementary question.
I have allowed six or eight supplementaries.
You allowed four.
I want to ask the Minister is he still basing his argument with regard to social welfare benefits, and particularly with regard to widows' pensions, on the percentage increase which these people got, and does he not appreciate that even with the increases they got, they are still below what even the Government admit is subsistence level? All the talk he does inside and outside this House will not change that. It will take hard cash to change it.
That is what we have been giving.
