Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Mar 1971

Vol. 252 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. G. Collins)

Before progress was reported, I had dealt mainly with the postal operations of the Department and I have just one more comment to make on this section of the Department's operations. Deputy O'Connell complained about the postal facilities available in Ballyfermot and in particular about the absence of a branch post office there. He stated that Ballyfermot has a larger population than Waterford city and yet is served by only one sub-post office. I should like to inform the Deputy that there are two sub-post offices in Ballyfermot, one in Upper Ballyfermot and the other in Lower Ballyfermot. The volume of postal business transacted in the area is well within the capacity of these offices to handle. I understand that the offices are within reasonable distance of the residents. The type of service provided in an area has to be determined by the volume of business transacted and not by the size of the population to be served. Comparisons based simply on population figures can often be misleading. I am quite satisfied there is no need for a branch office in Ballyfermot. If additional post office facilities become warranted the solution is to provide a further sub-post office. There is, however, no need for an additional post office at this stage. Deputy O'Connell also referred to the matter of queuing. This happens on days when social welfare allowances fall due for payment. He will realise that queues are unavoidable where a large number of people seek services at the same time. The public find the same problem in shops, banks and every other walk of business life.

Moving now to the telecommunications side, some Deputies commented adversely on the backlog of applications for telephones and suggested that the Department, by anticipating the increased demand, should have been geared to meet it. Planning has been on the basis of rapid growth in demand; but, with the resources available and procurable, it simply was not possible to meet demands in full. I may mention that the rate of demand for telephones increased by 90 per cent between 1960 and 1965. It is very difficult to expand a telecommunications system sufficiently quickly to cater fully for growth at this rate.

Over the past 15 years and longer the Department have recruited every suitable engineer willing to accept employment with no restrictions of numbers. To supplement the numbers coming from universities scholarship schemes were launched six years ago under which young men already employed by the Department can get university training or equivalent to degree standard. Youths entering on the early stages of their training at university are given valuable scholarships, subject to their agreeing to take up employment with the Department on completion of their degree courses.

Below the professional level the intake of trainees for technician grades, who constitute the skilled working force of the Department, was increased fourfold in the early sixties and has been further expanded by 50 per cent in the past year or two. The limiting factor of recruitment was the capacity of vocational colleges to provide the technical training. Since it takes four years to train a skilled technician, the full benefits of the huge increase in intake have only appeared in the past year or two.

Apart from the problem of getting sufficient qualified staff, it has to be remembered that the growth of demand stimulated by national prosperity, industrial expansion and rising living standards requires extension of the whole basic exchange, trunk and cable network, securing sites and erecting buildings to house the additional equipment. Even under favourable conditions it takes five years from the time it is decided to provide an exchange before the site can be acquired, the building erected and the exchange installed. A seven year gap is not abnormal and in cases where problems about the site arise much longer may elapse between a decision and the realisation of the plans.

I could go on at length to describe the various other measures adopted over the years to increase the number of staff and improve the technical skill at the disposal of the Department and the use of outside contractors to the best advantage, but after the marathon debate we have had I feel it is not a very good time to weary the House with a detailed account of all that has been done. Those facts I have mentioned are given to indicate that, despite the expansive planning of the past ten years or more, we cannot meet the demand fully. I have for the moment omitted reference to a limiting factor of increasing importance nowdays: the availability of capital required for expansion. I shall refer to that presently.

The backlog in respect of telephone communications at the end of 1970 is not as formidable as might appear at first sight. It is certainly higher than what I would wish, but in relative terms the position is much better than it was five years ago. At the end of 1965 the number waiting represented over ten months connection at the then current rate, whereas the 14,000 applicants at the end of 1970 represented about seven months connections on the basis of the connection rate in 1970. Every telephone administration we know of has a waiting list for telephones. For example, in 1970 over a quarter of a million people were waiting for a telephone in Britain, over half a million in Germany and over 400,000 in France.

Deputy Begley asked for a breakdown of the 14,000 applicants waiting for telephones. Of the 14,000 applications not disposed of at the end of December, 1970, 5,500 lines were either in course of provision or terms had been quoted as a preliminary to service; 8,000 of the remaining 8,500 applications were received during 1970; 494 were received in 1969; four in 1968, one in 1967 and one in 1966. It is expected that terms will be quoted shortly to the 1967 applicant, terms were quoted to the four 1968 applicants and over 200 of the 1969 applicants during January/February, 1971, leaving 300 pre-1970 applications at the end of February, 1971.

Mr. Kavanagh

What about the 1966 application?

Mr. G. Collins

I will come to that if the Deputy has a little patience. Special attention has been given to the older applications in order to clear them as quickly as possible. Of the 8,500 applications which had not been processed at the end of December, 4,500 were in the Dublin area and 4,000 in provincial areas. The 1967 applicant is in County Donegal and the 1966 applicant is in County Mayo. There is a very special difficulty in providing service in these cases owing to the nature of the terrain in one case and to wayleave difficulty in the other.

Deputy Begley suggested the Department should stop accepting applications for telephones until all those awaiting telephones for three years have been serviced. At the end of December, 1970, only two applicants had been waiting for three years, or more, and at the end of December, 1970, only about 8 per cent of applicants were waiting for a year or more and arrangements were in hands to provide service for more than a half of these.

Deputy Tully seemed to suggest that priority in the installation of telephones depended on other than objective criteria. The categories of applicants to receive priority are clearly laid down and I would be very surprised to learn of any instance in which priority was wrongly afforded. If Deputy Tully, or any other Deputy, sends particulars either direct to me, or to my Department, of any case in which he believes priority treatment was granted irregularly, the matter will be thoroughly and properly investigated.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins, Deputy J. Lenehan and Deputy Finn made special reference to a bad telephone service in the West of Ireland. The service is regarded in most areas as being satisfactory, the principal exception being Clifden and Belmullet which are served by circuits carried on wires over very exposed and very long routes. I am glad to say that trunk cables between Ballina and Belmullet and Galway and Clifden are due to be completed later this year and will enable a high quality telephone service to be provided in these areas. In order to cater for future growth, plans have been made to lay an underground cable from Athlone to Galway. The cable will also serve the Ballinasloe/Loughrea/Athenry/Portumna areas. It is expected it will be completed in two or three years time.

I was glad to hear Deputy O'Hara in the course of a very fair and generous speech pay tribute to the improvements made in the telephone service in County Mayo in the past year.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to the delay in calls to Dundalk. Normally there is no delay in calls to or from Dundalk, but the northern coaxial trunk cable which carries the great bulk of calls in and out of Dundalk has suffered an entirely abnormal amount of interruption in recent months. There were five interruptions in January and two in February, mostly caused by roadworks.

Deputy Esmonde stated that if he wants to ring someone in his own constituency, who may be only ten or 20 miles away, the service is appalling. If Deputy Esmonde would be good enough to give me particulars of the difficulties he has encountered I shall certainly have the matter investigated.

Complaints of discourtesy on the part of telephone operators are relatively few but any that are made are thoroughly investigated and the Department, in proven cases, take suitable action against offending operators. During training and at refresher courses the importance of courtesy and helpfulness to callers is impressed on all operators and constant care is taken by supervisors to ensure that the good name and reputation of operators for courtesy is not injured by the occasional operator who might tend to offend. That, of course, is only one side of the coin. On the other side, I am afraid that the telephone is for many people an exasperating instrument and some are inclined to criticise and abuse operators for failures which are outside the operators' control. Many callers do not seem to realise that delay in answering or connecting calls, or other difficulties sometimes experienced, are not due to any fault of the operators. Indeed, many otherwise reasonable and courteous people often become annoyed when a number they want is engaged or there is no reply. Operators naturally resent abusive criticism in such circumstances. As we say, one word borrows another and it can happen, although it is quite wrong, that an operator may reply in kind to discourtesy, but it should be remembered that courtesy is a two-way exercise.

Deputy Joe Dowling commented on the Walkinstown exchange. The switch capacity there is overtaxed because of the very heavy volume of traffic at certain times. Considerable delay was encountered in arranging a contract for the supply and installation of the additional automatic switch equipment required. By special arrangement with the contractor portion of this equipment was installed in March, 1970, but the relief afforded was rapidly offset by a further growth in the volume of traffic. Work on the installation of the remainder of the order was to have been completed this month but it has, unfortunately, been suspended since 1st February as a result of strike action by the contractor's staff. Special attention is given to ensure that the service provided by the existing equipment is maintained at the highest possible level.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to delay in answering at the Dublin exchange. During the recent British postal strike there was naturally a marked increase in the volume of telephone calls to both cross-channel and Northern Ireland destinations which resulted in abnormally busy conditions in both the Dublin and provincial exchanges. Despite the best efforts of the staff abnormal delays in answering were unavoidable. I understand the service has improved significantly since the strike ended.

Deputy Bruton complained about the unsatisfactory telephone service in An Uaimh and Trim areas. The position at An Uaimh has improved somewhat over the past few months following the installation of portion of the additional switching equipment. Installation of the balance of this equipment is expected to be completed by next June. The shortage of switching equipment at An Uaimh has also had an effect on the Trim service, particularly on calls between Trim and An Uaimh. The equipment in the Trim exchange is no longer adequate for the increased volume of traffic and a new exchange has been ordered to replace it; completion is expected in about two years time. In the meantime everything possible will be done to maintain a satisfactory service from the existing exchange.

In determining the amount of switching equipment required in an automatic telephone exchange generous provision is made at the design stage for the growth of traffic but occasionally, as happened in the case of An Uaimh, an unexpected increase in calling rate develops quite suddenly and, when this happens, it can only be remedied by the installation of additional equipment.

Deputy Bruton referred to the good telephone service he experienced in the United States last summer. Far be it from me to suggest that the United States in its telephone service, as in many other fields of technology, is not ahead of us. In fact, the telephone service there is universally accepted as the best in the world. If, however, Deputy Bruton thinks this means it is free from defects and does not come in for serious criticism now and again, then his experience last summer must have been very limited. I suggest that the Deputy should consult the Bell Telephone Company, New York, or its customers, and he will find that in the past few years they have experienced all sorts of difficulties in dialling, crossed lines, et cetera, which he says he experienced in some areas here. He also said that in all but one of our prospective EEC partner countries the telephones are automatic. Apart from France, there is a lower percentage of automatic telephone service as compared with here. The percentage is slightly more in Norway, 91.4 per cent, and little different in Denmark where it is 85.3 per cent.

Deputy Tully suggested that some exchanges provided a few years ago are now inadequate and he asked why bigger exchanges were not provided. The policy is to acquire telephone exchange sites large enough to meet maximum development in the areas to be served by the exchanges in question.

The buildings erected initially are normally designed to cater for estimated requirements for 15 to 20 years with provision for extensions if necessary. However, in individual cases, particularly in urban areas, it is not always possible to adhere to this policy. Owing to difficulties in obtaining suitable sites and to planning restrictions compromise solutions must be adopted in these cases. Forward forecasting of exchange buildings and equipment requirements is on a generous basis, nevertheless, there will be instances in which the provisions made will have a much shorter life because of new developments, such as factories or housing schemes not planned and unforeseeable at the time the estimate was being made. Exchange requirements are kept under constant review and extensions arranged as far as possible to avoid a shortage of situations. Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Esmonde mentioned that industrial estates located outside the main centres depend to a critical extent on efficient telephone and telex services and urged that expenditure of capital on supplying and maintaining these services at a high level of efficiency should not be stinted. I am in complete agreement with the Deputies and I am quite convinced that there is nothing on which State capital could be expended to better advantage than on the development of telephone and telex services. Some Deputies thought that more capital should be available for these services if they were taken out of the Department and a semi-State body instituted to conduct them. Apart from any other consideration that could arise in connection with this suggestion, and which is fully dealt with by the Devlin group, the public capital programme, including expenditure by semi-State bodies, is controlled by the Minister for Finance and the Government so that it is unlikely that semi-State status in itself would be of much help in securing a bigger capital allocation in a period of scarcity.

Deputy Cooney referred to my statement that the amount of capital available in the coming year for telephone development had not yet been settled and he inquired how there could be planning if the Minister did not know how much would be available in the next year. I fully agree with the implication in the Deputy's remarks that efficient development and planning of the telephone service can proceed with far greater efficiency if the telephone allocation for the coming year is always known in advance. I can go further and say that for fully effective planning it is desirable that the amount of capital that will be available during each of the next five to ten years should be known. Unfortunately, the amount of capital that can be made available for the various highly desirable State projects depends on a variety of factors which vary from year to year and the Minister for Finance and the Government do not find it possible to commit the Exchequer firmly to the expenditure for telephone development for a long period ahead as would be desirable if circumstances permitted them to do so. We must face the unpleasant fact that sufficient capital cannot be made available for telephone development if this service, which is so important to the whole community, is to be as efficient as subscribers and users rightly expect it to be.

Deputy Cooney pointed out that in the past ten years expenditure on the telephone service had increased almost fourfold and that the surplus had only doubled. He took the view that this surplus should have increased at the same pace as expenditure. I am afraid the Deputy may have overlooked the fact that the surplus is determined after charging interest on capital as well, of course, as full depreciation. He will find on page 14 of the notes circulated for the guidance of Deputies that the return on net telephone assets was 8.9 per cent in 1969-70 compared with 7.4 per cent in 1960-61. These figures may be more meaningful than the surplus considered by itself. He also took up my reference to the fact that equipment for installation which was ordered a considerable time ago was still awaited. The Deputy thought that such delays on the part of the contractor should not be tolerated and that where they occured we should take our business elsewhere. I certainly wish that the problem could be solved as easily as the Deputy thinks it could be. Unfortunately, as the Deputy is evidently unaware, suppliers of telephone equipment are in a sellers market. Owing to the enormous demand in recent years for telephone communication equipment, most equipment now being installed in exchanges was ordered two to five years ago. However, by the time a contractor is found to be falling behind in delivery it would cause even far greater delay if efforts were made to get replacements elsewhere. Where an existing exchange is being extended it is not possible to switch freely from one manufacturer to another. Indeed, under present conditions all manufacturers tend to be behind in their deliveries. The Deputy may be interested in a quotation from the leading article in the London Times of the 3rd February, 1971 which stated:

More than 1,000 contracts for the supply of telephone exchange equipment are running eight months behind Post Office delivery schedules. The strenuous collaborative efforts of manufacturers and Post Office purchasing executives are not making any significant improvement to the overall rate of installation programme.

That quotation is descriptive of the position in Britain but the British Post Office is not alone in finding great difficulty in securing execution of contracts for telecommunication equipment because of the huge demand.

Many Deputies, including Deputy Crowley, suggested that more kiosks should be provided in remote areas. The desirability of a more rapid extension of kiosk facilities in rural areas was recognised by my Department in 1969 when the extension of their rural kiosk programme was announced. Prior to that kiosks were erected only where they would pay their way and many rural areas did not qualify for kiosks. It was decided in 1969 to change the policy particularly in the case of rural kiosks and to extend kiosk facilities more rapidly by replacing call office telephones which were used to a fair extent by kiosks. Kiosks were selected for inclusion in the programme on the basis of the use being made of the call office telephone in the local post office. Those areas with the highest call office user are being dealt with first. A substantial increase in the number of kiosks provided in rural areas is envisaged under this programme. For example, 112 rural kiosks were provided in 1970 compared with 40 or 50 in the previous year. This programme involves very heavy expenditure of engineering staff time and of the limited capital available to the Department having regard to all the urgent tasks on hand, such as the provision of new lines and the automation programme, and expenditure on the basic exchange trunk and junction network and I can see no hope of our being in a position to employ any additional engineering staff time or scarce capital to provide kiosks in rural areas. However, when local authorities decide to guarantee a kiosk against loss an exception might be made. We provided three on that basis for one local authority recently and a further two are under consideration for the same authority.

Deputy Dowling suggested that in new urban housing areas kiosks should be planned and paid for by the local authorities. My Department would certainly be very glad to cooperate in any cases in which the local authorities might wish to pay for the provision of kiosks as an amenity in new housing estates. The present position is that the Department provide kiosks in urban areas in new housing estates where they will pay their way and where the existing public telephone facilities in the area are insufficient to cope with the demand placed on them.

Deputy Cooney apparently found difficulty in following the figures quoted regarding the telephone kiosks in the notes circulated to Deputies some weeks ago and in my opening statement. I had thought the position was clear but to help the Deputy I shall try to clarify it further. Prior to 1969 the average number of rural kiosks being erected was 40 to 50 a year. In 1969 a scheme for the more rapid expansion of kiosk facilities in rural areas was approved in principle, aimed at raising to a level of installation of about 115 rural kiosks on average annually. In 1969-70 65 rural kiosks were provided and as the scheme gained momentum 73 rural kiosks were provided in the nine months ended December, 1970. Therefore, as the Deputy will appreciate, the build-up to a programme of 150 rural kiosks annually is going ahead quite well.

Deputy Coughlan spoke on the need for kiosks in new housing estates in Limerick. The Deputy will be very glad to hear that arrangements have already been made to provide two kiosks to serve new housing estates in the city, one at Dooradoyle and the other at O'Malley Park. It is expected that the kiosks will be in service within the next three to six months and the need for further kiosks in the Limerick area will be examined in the normal course when the future kiosk programmes are being prepared.

Many Deputies, and in particular Deputy Dowling, referred to the damage caused by vandals to telephone kiosks and equipment and the serious inconvenience caused to people who may wish to make emergency calls. In the past year the cost of repairing damage has been close on £10,000. When kiosks are being provided in cities and towns sites are allocated where the kiosk is likely to be least vulnerable to vandalism. Normally these sites are in well-lighted thoroughfares, at shopping centres or near Garda stations, places that would seem to be pretty safe. Kiosks subjected to excessive vandalism are removed to alternative sites or recovered altogether. At present there are 39 kiosks in the Dublin area where the entire installations have been stolen and these are closed up temporarily. Experimental measures have been taken in the past year to reduce the incidence of vandalism with some degree of success. These include the replacement of the small glass panes in more than 100 structures by sheets of very strong plastic material and fitting steel plates to the backs of some 300 kiosks to enable the coin boxes to be more strongly secured. Damage of this sort is also a problem in many other countries where, in fact, it is more serious than it is here. No country has yet found a complete cure, but we are keeping in touch with the technical developments abroad and will adopt any new measures that seem useful. My Department will also consider the constructive suggestions put forward by Deputies in the course of this debate.

Deputy O'Hara referred to the need for silence facilities for public telephones. There are 1,800 telephone kiosks all of which are sound proofed, and about 1,000 call offices and sub-post offices have silence facilities. There are about 600 call offices at which the Department have not provided silence facilities. A number of these call offices will be replaced by kiosks under the expanded rural programme, and the sub-postmasters have provided wooden enclosures for a number also. The remainder are, in the main, places where little use is made of call offices, one or two calls a day, and the provision of silence facilities in places like this is not warranted.

On 11th February I told Deputy Cooney in reply to a Parliamentary question that the cost of converting telephone coin boxes consequent on the increase of the local call charge to sixpence was approximately £40,000. Deputy Cooney questioned the wisdom of incurring that expenditure on changing coin box mechanisms such a short time before coin boxes would have to be changed again for decimal working and suggested that this indicated a lack of proper planning by the Department. The facts are that the increase in the local call charge to 6d produced extra revenue of approximately £400,000 in the period of about 15 months before 15th February, 1971 and the decision to make this increase at the time was taken in the clear knowledge that coin boxes would have to be modified again to take decimal coins.

In my reply to Deputy Cooney's Parliamentary question I also said that the time required to complete the conversion for decimal currency was about three months. Deputy Cooney now seems to regard this forecast as incredible. The fact is that in the first five weeks since decimal day over 8,400 coin boxes were converted, which is pretty nearly on the target which we set for ourselves. The job will be completed within three months as forecast unless failure on the part of the contractor responsible for the manufacture of the equipment to maintain contractual deliveries prevents this being done.

Deputy Coughlan spoke about the deposits for call charges. I do not accept that the deposits which are required by my Department are excessive. A substantial deposit is sought from new subscribers only where they default on a telephone they rented previously or where the type of business conducted is regarded as speculative or where the subscriber is likely to make a considerable number of calls abroad. The deposit for an existing subscriber is increased only in special circumstances such as slowness in paying his bill. In seeking deposits against call charges the Department is merely exercising normal commercial prudence. Telephone subscribers get a very generous measure of credit. With the exception of calls from Britain, in respect of which accounts are issued monthly, calls for one quarter are not charged for until well into the next quarter, and in general where a higher than normal deposit is asked for it is designed to be broadly equivalent to the amount of credit afforded to the subscriber. Moreover the amount of such deposits is reviewed on request and may be reduced after a period if the circumstances warrant it.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins inquired about the hours of telephone service at sub-office exchanges. The hours of attendance depend on the size of the exchange and in most small exchanges telephone attendance is given between 8 o'clock in the morning and 10 o'clock at night on week days and from 9 in the morning to 10.30 and from 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. on Sundays. At the bigger exchanges, there is a continuous service.

Deputy Begley complained about the lack of secrecy on telephone lines in the Dingle area—lines that are switched through on a party line basis during the night hours. At small exchanges where the hours of service are restricted, it is practicable to provide a 24-hour service at a small extra fee for a number of subscribers by switching their lines through on a party-line basis to another exchange, when their own exchange closes, at which other exchange continuous attendance is provided. In the case of the Dingle peninsula, the exchange would be at Dingle or Tralee. For technical reasons not more than four subscribers can be swithched through on one trunk line and calls for the subscriber concerned are distinguishable by a code system. Unfortunately, when lines are switched through in this way it is not possible to guard against over-hearing by other subscribers who are switched over on the same lines.

The cost of providing a continuous 24-hour attendance at small exchanges would be out of proportion entirely to the revenue that would accrue from calls made during the additional hours for which service would be provided. In many cases, the extra cost of attendance would exceed the total rental being paid by all subscribers connected to the exchange. The solution lies in the replacement of manual exchanges by small automatic units and ultimately all exchanges will have automatic units.

Mr. Corish

Has the Minister received many complaints about incorrect charges?

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Finn said that the large areas in his county have no night telephone service. I presume that what he meant to convey is that there are several exchanges in County Mayo where a continuous service is not provided. There are 1,650 subscribers served by sub-post office exchanges in County Mayo and, of these, more than 950 are connected with exchanges at which a continuous service is provided and almost 400 others have continuous service on a party-line basis when their local exchanges have closed.

In addition to that, telephone kiosks which provide an all-night service are available in most of the places concerned. Seventeen subscribers at Hollymount and 12 at Knock have continuous service on a party-line basis and several more can be accommodated similarly at both places.

I am afraid that Deputy Cott has been misled by someone in relation to prospective telephone development in Britain. He said that within the next two years both the number of daily telephone calls and the number of telephones in Britain are expected to increase by 50 per cent. In fact, the British Post Office expect the number of telephone calls and the number of telephones to double in ten years. In relation to the type of automatic exchange equipment in use here, Deputy Cott referred to the present use of crossbar exchanges by the British Post Office and he suggested that we are behind the times in using equipment which he described as being of an antiquated design.

I am happy to be able to tell Deputy Cott that we were more than 12 years ahead of the British in the use of the crossbar exchanges. Almost all of the new automatic exchanges installed here during the past 15 years have been the crossbar type while the British Post Office introduced crossbar equipment in their system only within the past two or three years.

Supplies of pulse code modulation equipment which were ordered more than a year ago have now been received and are being fitted on certain cables.

Deputies Desmond and Tully commented on the classified directory. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs decided not to produce the classified directory because it was considered that a venture of this kind, the success of which would depend primarily on the sale of advertising space, could best be handled by commercial concerns specialising in this field. The directory is produced by a contractor who is responsible for all the costs involved. He pays the Department a percentage of his gross advertising revenue or a minimum guaranteed royalty, whichever is the greater.

Deputy Desmond suggested that a better cover should be provided for the telephone directory. The quality of the cover compares favourably with the type of directory cover used by many other telephone administrations and I do not consider that the expenditure that would be involved in providing a cover of a better quality would be justified. More than 90 per cent of the directories are supplied to private subscribers and there have been no complaints as to the cover being inadequate. I agree that the covers of directories in kiosks and call offices often become torn but directories in these places have to be replaced very frequently in any event, either because they have been removed altogether or because pages have been removed or defaced. The provision of a better cover for directories in kiosks would only add to the cost while there would be no worthwhile resultant benefit. Furthermore, the question of introducing gradually a stronger cover for directories in certain localities where kiosks and call offices are less subject to abuse is under consideration by me.

Deputy O'Connell said that this year's ordinary telephone directory will not last longer than four or five months. The binding is similar to that of last year and Members of this House will know from personal ex-experience of the directories in their homes how much credit should be given to the Deputy's opinion.

Deputy O'Connell went on to say, in relation to the printing of the directory, that he was horrified that a proof-reader failed to pick up an erroneous entry. It is quite clear from his various comments that this representative of the Labour Party has a very low opinion of the quality of product of Irish workers and, certainly, I do not share his opinion.

The same Deputy continued, in the course of his ill-informed speech, to be highly critical of the many aspects of the Irish telephone service, while sounding the praises in extravagant terms, to which I have already referred, of private telephone communication companies in Britain, Europe and Japan. He is dissatisfied with the presentation in the directory preface of information relating to emergency services. He says that this information is buried somewhere in the green section at the beginning.

Dr. O'Connell

Was I not correct especially in relation to the exchange in the Department of Social Welfare?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to conclude. The Deputy may then put a question if the Minister is prepared to answer him.

Mr. G. Collins

I listened to the Deputy without commenting on any of his remarks and I think that I should now be given the same right.

Dr. O'Connell

The Minister is not being honest.

Mr. G. Collins

I would like to inform the Deputy that the information in relation to emergency services is to be found at page 1 of the book and, to my mind, it could not be in a more prominent position.

A firm of designers were employed to rearrange, in consultation with the Department, the information contained in the preface to the directory so as to present it in as clear a way as possible to the users.

Dr. O'Connell

It did not take a firm of consultants to decide that.

Mr. G. Collins

They would want to show the Deputy how to use it.

Dr. O'Connell

Obviously there is abysmal ignorance in the Department if they need a firm of consultants to guide them.

Mr. G. Collins

The pages containing this information were given a distinctive colour for ease of identification. It appears to me that Deputy O'Connell has not got as far as reading page I which contains advice to subscribers which may reduce his problems.

Dr. O'Connell

How could I when many of the books are without pages?

Mr. G. Collins

It suggests that subscribers should insert on that page numbers which they might need to call in emergencies. If Deputy O'Connell finds that he has suggestions to make for the better presentation of directory information, perhaps he will forward them to my Department and they will receive appropriate consideration.

Dr. O'Connell

I certainly will.

Mr. G. Collins

If I may digress here for a moment, I noticed with interest that Deputy O'Connell has discovered that the postage charge for a letter in the Irish service is dearer than in Britain.

Dr. O'Connell

Yes.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy O'Connell seems to be unaware that this position has obtained for 49 years.

Dr. O'Connell

For how long?

Mr. G. Collins

I do not like to dwell on what the Irish postal workers will think about his violent hostility to rate increases arising primarily from the cost of desirable improvement in their pay and conditions.

Dr. O'Connell

That is twisting my statement. It is typical of the Minister.

Mr. G. Collins

It is not.

Mr. Crowley

The Minister is telling the truth.

Mr. G. Collins

As Deputy O'Connell was rather anxious, and as he was highly critical in his comments——

Dr. O'Connell

And rightly so. I offered some constructive suggestions.

Mr. Crowley

He is getting a constructive answer.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy could learn something about the operations of the post office from Deputy Tully and from other Deputies in the Labour Party. The Deputy made a fool of himself.

Dr. O'Connell

Must I say everything to please the Minister?

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy need not, but Deputy Tully could straighten him out on a lot of things.

Dr. O'Connell

The Minister was very annoyed at my speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies should avoid cross-talk.

Mr. G. Collins

If it appeared to the Deputy that I was very annoyed during his speech I should like to refer him to the record of this evening's debate when he accused me of smiling at him.

Dr. O'Connell

The expression I saw was a smile.

Mr. G. Collins

That is probably because I have such a large face.

Dr. O'Connell

Yes, indeed, and an enigmatic one.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy O'Connell should inform himself better before putting forward such a ridiculous suggestion as the suggestion that the equipment for the Department of Social Welfare private automatic branch exchange could be provided within a week.

Dr. O'Connell

I would have thought that it could be provided in less than two years.

Mr. G. Collins

To my mind Deputy O'Connell is a real innocent at large because the equipment for this large and complex exchange extension has to be specially manufactured to a specification. Apart from the work of manufacture, the installation of the equipment by the contractor would take three months, and everything would want to be going well at that.

Dr. O'Connell

May I ask the Minister how long it would take to supply it without installation?

Mr. G. Collins

In order to put the facts straight, the position about the Social Welfare PABX is as follows: The order for equipment was placed in May, 1969, and the work should have been finished in November, 1970. There was a delay on the part of the contractor and, despite strong pressure by the Department, installation work did not commence until January, 1971. Unfortunately a strike by the contractor's employees began in the same month and work on the Social Welfare switchboard was suspended and cannot be resumed by the contractor until the strike is finished.

Dr. O'Connell

Two years delay.

Mr. G. Collins

May I add that life would be much easier for my Department and its customers if Deputy O'Connell's fairy tale about telecommunication manufacturers waiting throughout Europe eager to complete complex manufacturing and installation jobs in a week were only true.

Dr. O'Connell

Tell us about the extension.

Mr. G. Collins

If the Deputy had been here to hear my full reply he would know that I have covered all the ground and all the points raised by him.

Dr. O'Connell

About the internal telephone?

Mr. G. Collins

With regard to a comment by Deputy Finn I am afraid it is not practicable in present circumstances to abolish the additional rental beyond the minimum payable by applicants who live more than three miles radially from the exchange. The provision of telephones involving long lines is very costly and most of these telephones are heavily subsidised. A recent analysis indicated that the total annual revenue from telephones which involved heavy construction work, amounted to only about half the annual cost to the Department of providing and maintaining the telephones. However, the distances covered by the minimum rental was increased from two to three miles 11 years ago, and the amount payable is £1.6 per furlong per year. This has been the figure for the past 18 years.

Deputy O'Connell referred to the fact that a telegram cannot be sent from the Ballyfermot sub-post office and asked had an examination been made of the number of telegrams sent from kiosks in the area. A return taken at the time Deputy O'Connell raised this matter in 1969, showed that a total of only five telegrams were sent from the nine telephone kiosks in Ballyfermot over a four-week period. Two of these were sent at a time when the sub-office was closed. According to a more recent return, the number of telegrams sent from kiosks in Ballyfermot was even less than in the four-week period in 1969. These figures clearly demonstrate the lack of demand for telegraph facilities in Ballyfermot, and the provision of telegraph facilities at the sub-office there is not warranted.

Dr. O'Connell

Is the Minister saying that the provision of a proper post office for Ballyfermot is not warranted?

Mr. G. Collins

When I was dealing with the question of the sub-post office in Ballyfermot the Deputy should have been here to listen to what I said. Deputy O'Connell also mentioned that it was inconvenient for local people to send a telegram from a kiosk. The process of sending a telegram from a kiosk is no more inconvenient than making a trunk call from the same kiosk. All the person has to do is to dial 10, tell the operator the contents of the telegram and to whom it is to be sent——

Dr. O'Connell

Would the Minister tell that to the community in Ballyfermot?

Mr. G. Collins

——the operator will then advise the caller of the amount which should be inserted in the coin box. When the money is inserted, this finishes the transaction so far as the caller is concerned.

Dr. O'Connell

Did you ever hear such rubbish? It is a farrago of nonsense.

Mr. Crowley

The Deputy sent a famous telegram at one time.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Coogan had some comments to make on special greetings and sympathy telegrams. On many occasions the Department have considered the desirability of introducing specially designed greetings and sympathy telegrams but decided against it. The production of suitably designed forms would be expensive and it is not at all certain that the public would be prepared to pay the higher costs involved. As well as that, many telegrams are prepared in manuscript and it would be quite difficult to ensure that the handwriting used was of an adequate standard for a specially designed telegram form, particularly during periods of heavy pressure such as occur on occasion in the Central Telegraph Office where over 700 telegrams are received for local delivery in one morning. A special service of this kind would be introduced only if a satisfactory standard of telegram could be provided commensurate with the higher charge which would have to be levied on it.

Deputy O'Donovan put forward the interesting suggestion that telephone rentals for individual subscribers, having been fixed by reference to the cost at the time of installation, should not be increased in later years. He recognised that this would cause administrative difficulties but in pure equity there could be a theoretical case for isolating and maintaining unchanged that element of the rental charge which relates to the capital cost of original installation but this is very much in the realm of theory because the capital cost of an exchange line can vary from between £100 and £500 and occasionally it is much more. As the subscriber will pay the same rental from the outset, there is a wide measure of averaging continuing year in, year out, which overrules even the apparent ease in equity made by Deputy O'Donovan. In addition the suggestion does not take account of the fact that the rental covers maintenance and renewal costs which rise with the passage of time.

Deputy O'Hara mentioned the need for a telephone kiosk at Meelick and Bonniconlon. Deputy Finn also asked about a kiosk at Meelick. I am afraid I cannot add anything to what I have already said in reply to parliamentary question on the same subject. A kiosk will be provided at Bonniconlon under the five year extended rural scheme programme, but the provision of a kiosk at Meelick where there is no post office is not envisaged under the programme.

Deputy Coogan suggested there should be a hole at the corner of directories. I am very much afraid that the benefits to be gained by having a hole in the corner of telephone directories would be far outweighed by the disadvantages. Apart from the additional expense involved, it could——

Mr. Corish

A very serious problem.

Mr. G. Collins

——add two months to the production time. In other words the directory would be an additional two months out of date when published. A hole of this kind would tend to weaken the binding.

Dr. O'Connell

Has the Minister considered improving the binding?

Mr. G. Collins

I dealt with that when Deputy O'Connell was not in the House. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to a call from England to Galway being routed via Athlone. Calls to Galway numbers are normally dialled by operators in the United Kingdom over direct Dublin/Galway lines. In the event of difficulty a UK operator will ask the Dublin operator for assistance and the Dublin operator would route the call via the Athlone trunk and transit exchange if all the Dublin/Galway lines were engaged. It is normal practice to have alternative routes of this kind available at all major centres.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins said she had difficulty in making calls to Scariff. I assume the Deputy was referring to calls from Portumna or Kilrickle to Scariff. These calls are passed to the Birr or Loughrea operator who can call the Scariff operator direct by dialling over the trunk transit network. Occasional delays may arise in busy periods but the Department have had no complaints about such delays.

Deputy Esmonde seemed to be under the impression that all applicants for a telephone service had to pay three or four years rental in advance. This is not so. Over 80 per cent of new subscribers pay only one year's rent in advance and less than 1 per cent pay more than three years rent in advance.

Deputy O'Connell mentioned the case of a hospital department in Jervis Street having its number duplicated with that of a café and he stated that the café was being inundated with calls for the hospital and as a result people were unable to contact the hospital.

Dr. O'Connell

The doctor concerned is the head of the hospital.

Mr. G. Collins

I am quoting from the official record of the House.

Dr. O'Connell

The number of the doctor who is head of the department is a café number instead of his department number.

Mr. G. Collins

If the Deputy had been listening——

Dr. O'Connell

I am trying to enlighten the Minister.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy should enlighten himself first.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Dr. O'Connell

The doctor's number at the hospital is wrong.

Mr. G. Collins

The telephone numbers for Jervis Street hospital are correctly shown in the 1971 directory but unfortunately, owing to a mistake by the printers, the number of a café in Denmark Street was also shown under the entry for the professor in charge of the department in Jervis Street Hospital. Immediately the mistake was brought to our notice steps were taken to remedy the position. Arrangements were made for calls to the duplicated number to be intercepted by the exchange operator who would advise the callers as appropriate either of the professor's correct number or of the new number allocated to the café owner. This arrangement has been working satisfactory. The café is not receiving any calls for the hospital and anyone trying to contact the hospital should have no difficulty in doing so. It is regrettable that the mistake occurred but in a volume the size of the telephone directory containing over 200,000 entries, including over 50,000 changed entries, it is impossible to guard against a small number of errors occuring.

Deputy Bruton questions the basis on which the extended rural kiosk programme is being implemented. He suggested that places with no post office should have preference for the provision of kiosks, that distance from an existing kiosk should be borne in mind and the use made of the call office telephone in the local post office is not an adequate criterion for selection of places for inclusion in the programme. My Department devoted an amount of time to devising a fair basis for the selection of places for inclusion in the extended rural kiosk programme. As only a limited amount of money can be spent on providing kiosks and the subsidy allowed in the case of rural kiosks is modest, there must be a good prospect that the kiosk when provided will be used to a fair extent so that the revenue will make up the difference between the subsidy and the cost of providing and maintaining the kiosk. In fairness the limited number of kiosks which can be erected should be placed so that they will be of benefit to the greatest number of rural dwellers. The Department considers that while the present basis of selection is not perfect it meets these conditions fairly but if Deputy Bruton can suggest an alternative method of selecting places for inclusion in the programme which will also fulfil these conditions my Department will certainly consider it. He mentioned the case of Carbury village with a population of 45 where not more than three calls are made each day. Even though Carbury is seven miles from the nearest kiosk, the circumstances in the village are not such as to warrant the provision of a kiosk there.

Deputy Desmond talked at length about the Devlin Report and its effects as far as my Department is concerned. The recommendations of Devlin have been under consideration by my Department and in particular those related to the separation of policy making from the day-to-day execution of policy; those related to the general coordination, organisation and management of the public service and those related to the setting up of a new public service department have been studied. The recommendation that the post office should be merged with the Department of Transport and Power in a new Department of Transport and Communications was made within the framework of the major recommendations that policy making should be separated from the execution of policy and, pending a decision on the major recommendation, consideration of the amalgamation proposed has not been undertaken.

Deputy Tully raised the question as to whether or not sub-postmasters are adequately remunerated for the work they do. By agreement between the Minister and the sub-postmasters union there is a scheme of conciliation and arbitration for sub-postmasters which enables the union to process claims relating to remuneration and conditions of employment generally. The union avails itself fully of the opportunities accorded to it under such a scheme and sub-postmasters have benefited from all the national rounds of pay increases and, in addition, they have had several aspects of their work revalued in recent years, as well as securing improvements in other conditions, such as retirement gratuities.

A number of Deputies, and Deputy Tully in particular, dwelt on the question of the political rights of post office grades and expressed the view that the present bar which prohibits them from taking part in politics should be lifted for the non-executive class and he asked what was being done about this. He went on to contrast the difference in treatment between post office staff and teachers and staff in the ESB from the point of view of participation in politics. Deputy Bruton also made some comments on the existing regulations on the subject of participation by post office staff in politics and in public affairs generally. The position is that claims on behalf of a number of grades in the post office to be allowed to participate in politics are being considered by the departmental council under the scheme for conciliation and arbitration and I believe it would be inappropriate for me to comment on the existing regulations while the staff claims to amend them are under consideration by the departmental council. I can say, however, that examination of these schemes will be expedited as far as possible, but I cannot say when it will be concluded.

Mr. Tully

It is a legacy handed on to the Minister by his predecessor. It is dragging on too long.

Mr. G. Collins

I have already given Deputy Tully an assurance that I will do my best to expedite the matter and a decision on it will be reached as quickly as possible.

Mr. Corish

There is participation anyhow.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Desmond is under a misapprehension in regard to the secondment of post office officials to trade unions. At column 2168 of volume 251 of the Official Report the Deputy said:

...some consideration might be given by the Government to the insistence under the conciliation and arbitration system, that the negotiating officers in the postal unions should at all times be civil servants who are seconded to the postal union to act in that capacity. I would not think the independence of these officers is in any way prejudiced but this insistence on the Government's side can give rise to unfair allegations against such officers and can act to the detriment of the relations between them and their fellow members of the general body. If the Government were to abandon the insistence on such a rigid formal relationship under the conciliation and arbitration system, then some of the highly selective, half-truth propaganda which has been aimed at these officers would not carry conviction.

I do not know where Deputy Desmond got his information, but there is no question under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for the Civil Service of insisting that all trade union representatives must be officials seconded from the Department. Full-time officers of staff organisations can participate fully in the scheme without ever having served in the Civil Service.

Deputy Coughlan suggested the training of post office technicians in Limerick and asked that special classes to train people as post office technicians should be provided in Limerick. In fact, such classes are already provided in Limerick. It is one of the centres in which the local vocational school provides, by arrangement with the Department, for full-time day release courses for technician trainees in the post office. If there is a demand for some other courses of a kind which would be useful to persons anxious to secure employment on engineering work in the post office I expect local vocational schools will respond to such a demand, if they are made aware of it.

Deputy Tully asked why the Department was not prepared to give employment to a man who was recommended by him as a fully trained technician. He referred to a shortage of technicians. By agreement with the Post Office Engineering Union vacancies are reserved for the promotion of serving staff. The recruitment grades are technician trainee, trainee installer and labourer. A man can be recruited only through these grades and advance through them to technician. The number of trainees recruited has increased steadily over the years to match the growing requirements of the telephone service.

Mr. Tully

This man would have taken employment as a labourer and the Minister had told me he had not got enough staff and that is the reason I raised the matter.

Mr. G. Collins

As far as I know, it is normal practice to take on these people as labourers and they are normally given priority. If the Deputy will let me have the details I shall certainly see that this man gets the same treatment as everybody else.

Deputy Desmond referred to the setting up of a consultative council in the Dublin postal district and I was glad to hear him say that he approved of this development. He asked how the council was functioning. Deputy Tully had some comments to make on the operation of councils of this kind in general. The council in the Dublin postal district has been in operation for over a year now and, although neither staff nor management claim it is working perfectly, both are satisfied it is serving a useful purpose. The success of councils of this kind depends on mutual trust and confidence between staff and management and this is something which cannot be achieved overnight. My hope is that, with the passage of time and as council members gain experience and staff realise its potential, it will fulfil an increasingly important role. Both Deputies inquired about the introduction of similar councils in other centres. Three other councils have been set up in the last three months and it has been agreed with staff representatives to establish councils at 12 other centres catering for all the major staff groups and I expect these will be established within the next few months.

Deputy Tully, when talking about the five-day week for postmen, said he was sure the public would be agreeable to giving postmen a five-day week. Deputy Cooney did not share his view. A staff claim for the introduction of a five-day week for postmen has been under discussion at departmental council level for quite a long time now. There are special problems involved but, despite these, it has been possible to give more than half the 3,000 full-time postmen a five-day week. I understand the question of what can be done for the remainder is under active consideration by the departmental council at the moment.

Mr. Tully

Is it true that the biggest objection is coming from people who are already on a five-day week themselves?

Mr. G. Collins

I would prefer not to comment on that at the moment. Deputy Dowling was by no means enamoured with the Department's use of industrial psychologists but I am told that their employment is experimental and we shall review the question of using them in the light of our experience on the pilot training for which they have been engaged. It is only right that we should explore whether their employment can be of value to both the staff and the Department.

Deputy Tully raised the question of exempting drivers in my Department from the driving test prescribed under the Road Traffic Act. The determination of what class of persons may be exempted from such tests in order to secure a driving licence is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the Minister for Local Government who has indicated that he is not prepared to exempt drivers of post office vehicles from the test.

Mr. Tully

Is it not a very stupid regulation? While the Minister trains people to a very high standard his colleague says they are not fit to drive. I am not blaming the Minister. This is typical.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Begley asked that an extra allowance be paid to sub-postmasters in tourist areas to enable them to employ extra staff to cope with the extra business during the summer. The position is that the pay of sub-postmasters is related to the volume of business transacted and extra business arising in these circumstances is taken into account in determining the remuneration of the sub-postmasters concerned. Deputy Dowling mentioned the question of the employment of disabled by my Department. Subject to the requirements of the work, the Department do what they can in this regard. What the Deputy said will be borne in mind and if anything further can be done the possibility will be sympathetically considered.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins stressed the difficulty, which she believed to exist, in regard to the recruiting of staff. The Department is a very big employer and large numbers of new staff are needed each year to meet normal wastage and expansion. Generally speaking, the Department succeed in meeting staff needs but difficulties arise from time to time in regard to certain grades. I have already described the measures which it has been felt necessary to undertake to improve the recruitment of professional engineers. The same Deputy also raised the question of payment for providing telephone services on Sunday evenings in smaller exchanges. The attendance is two hours and not four hours as the Deputy stated; the payments for this attendance are those agreed with the sub-postmasters union and consist of a minimum payment plus an allowance in respect of traffic handled. The minimum payment is 4/- and not 2/- as the Deputy stated and as I say the total payment depends on the volume of traffic handled. Deputy Tully referred to Christmas overtime by postmen. The detailed information he requested in a recent question is being prepared and I hope to let him have it soon.

Mr. Tully

Will the Minister see that the postmen are paid?

Mr. G. Collins

I have not seen what is being prepared.

Mr. Tully

Without going over the route somebody decides how long it should take for the work and if a man spends 12 hours doing the work he may only be paid for six or seven hours.

Mr. G. Collins

On the question of the control of the overtime I just wish to say that there is no arbitrary limit on the amount that may be allowed. Overtime work in rural areas cannot be supervised or directly checked and each claim must be decided on locally. If a postman is not satisfied with the time allowed he may appeal to the postmaster. In the occasional case in which agreement cannot be reached he can appeal to headquarters. The number of appeals which go to headquarters from a total of about 7,000 postmen who work overtime at Christmas is small.

Mr. Tully

The Minister is aware that there have been cases where sub-postmasters have certified the amount of overtime worked but postmasters have then reduced the amount. I think that this will result in no overtime being worked next Christmas. The Minister may be prepared for that.

Mr. G. Collins

Well, I have spelt out the position quite clearly. In regard to the income tax problem which arises when income tax is not sufficiently evenly spread over a long period and can cause an excessive burden over a short term, my Department have been in touch with the Revenue Commissioners trying to seek a solution and I am hopeful that it will be possible to make some arrangement that will be administratively practicable.

Mr. Tully

Some other Departments take an estimated amount.

Mr. G. Collins

Various Deputies raised the question of giving established appointments to temporary postmen. Permanent established status can be obtained only through success in a competition conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners. Suitable competitions confined to serving temporary or auxiliary postmen are conducted from time to time. One was held in 1970 for men in the provinces and another will shortly be held for temporary postmen in Dublin. Deputy Tully referred to pensions and asked that they be introduced for temporary full-time and part-time postmen. A claim for pensions on behalf of part-time and unestablished full-time civil servants is before the general council under the arbitration and conciliation scheme and such grades would benefit from any improvement that might be agreed on arising from that claim.

In regard to the new Donegal post office in which Deputy Tully was interested it was necessary to revise earlier plans for the new post office because of the need to retain an existing house in which the manual telephone exchange was accommodated. Revised plans were recently received from the Office of Public Works and are under examination and local staff will be consulted on them. It is too early yet to say when tenders will be invited but the Deputy can rest assured that everything possible will be done to keep the project moving quickly.

Mr. Tully

This year?

Mr. G. Collins

Very quickly. That is as far as I can go. Deputy Tully also mentioned the site for the new district sorting office at Ballsbridge. As regards new premises all known sites were investigated and for one known reason or another were not obtainable or would not satisfy planning conditions. The question of providing for the office by leasing accommodation in a new block to be erected in the area was considered but owing to delays encountered by the developer a solution has not been finally reached. Getting back to the central sorting office and the elimination of dust and the ventilation problem, on which Deputy Tully touched, all possible measures have been taken to eliminate dust from this office. These measures included the raising of cleaning standards and fairly good results have been achieved. Mechanical ventilators have been installed in various parts about which the staff complained. Last year the installation of a mechanically assisted ventilation system was decided on as the most effective way of eliminating the problem in the whole building. Plans for the installation in the office block portion are advanced and it is expected that tenders will be invited by the end of the year with the prospect that installation work will commence by April or May, 1972. A date cannot be fixed yet for the installation of ventilation equipment in the main sorting floors but every effort will be made to put the work in hands as near as possible to the dates quoted for the office block.

Mr. Tully

There was almost a walk-out last summer because of the heat and the coal dust. The Minister was not Minister when a decision was made to take out the dust extractors. Whoever made the decision should have been left working there for a couple of days and then he would have appreciated the position.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Tully also asked if there was consultation with staff in regard to building plans. When planning new buildings or alterations to existing buildings, it is standard practice to consult with staff representatives and to supply them with copies of the plans for inspection. Suggestions from staff are welcomed and are carefully considered at all stages.

Mr. Tully

They certainly did not act on the suggestion about Sheriff Street.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Tully had another query in regard to reconstruction and the extension of the post office at Mullingar. When planning of a scheme for the reconstruction and the extension of Mullingar post office was under consideration in December, 1968 a suggestion was made that accommodation for other Government Departments should be included in the scheme. This proposal was examined and incorporated in preliminary architectural plans which at a later stage did not find favour with the Departments concerned. New plans for an exclusive post office building were necessary and arrangements accordingly have been initiated. It is not possible yet to forecast when building works are likely to commence.

Mr. Tully

But it is very badly needed.

Mr. G. Collins

The last suggestion from Deputy Tully is in connection with the supply of light-coloured raincoats for post office drivers. The question of replacing the black paramatic coats worn by postmen drivers by a yellow or white plastic coat is one of a number of proposals due to be considered by a departmental committee on road safety, shortly, I hope.

Mr. Tully

Did the Minister reply to the query about representation on international bodies?

Mr. G. Collins

If I have not, I shall certainly get in touch with the Deputy on it. He must admit that he has got great value for money on this Estimate.

Mr. Tully

Yes, I thank the Minister.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy Desmond is unhappy, as are many other people, that RTE should be dependent on advertising for as much as 60 per cent of its income. He has suggested that the percentage of time given to advertising should be reduced to half and considers that the Irish people would be in favour of such a reduction even if it meant an increase in the licence fee. The increase in the licence fee that would follow the adoption of Deputy Desmond's recommendation would be approximately £4 for a television licence, which would then cost £10. While this would, perhaps, be a small matter to many people such as Deputies, it might be hard on a great numbers of viewers of more limited means who might prefer to put up with the present level of advertising rather than face the extra fee for its reduction.

Deputy Keating thought that the volume of advertising should be reduced and that the money should be found in some other way. Deputy Desmond also expressed the view that the RTE service should not necessarily pay its way and he was confident that the taxpayer would not resent having to meet a substantial deficit on the service. I do not share his confidence and I certainly consider that the very great number of citizens who have not television sets either because they do not want them or because they cannot afford them would feel ill used at having to subsidise those people who have television sets.

Deputy Dowling suggested that some standards should be established to govern television advertising. The authority apply a comprehensive code of standards for television and sound advertising. This code is published in the form of a booklet. The code sets out the minimum standards to be observed, but the authority reserve the right to impose stricter standards should this be considered necessary. It is fully conscious of the unique position of television as a medium which penetrates into the family circle and that it has, therefore, to maintain higher standards than would be acceptable in other advertising media. Deputy Dowling suggested that advertising should be confined to the beginning or the end of programmes and should not be inserted in the middle of them. I have much sympathy with this suggestion. It is obviously irritating to viewers that programmes, especially serious ones, are interrupted by breaks, but the authority cannot, however, ignore the question of revenue. Advertising charges for peak periods are very high and obviously there would be a serious loss of revenue if the Deputy's suggestion was accepted completely.

Mr. Corish

In fairness to them, they use their discretion.

Mr. G. Collins

Nevertheless, I am sure the authority exercise discretion in the placing of advertisements and as far as is reasonably practicable will avoid obtrusive interruptions of programmes by advertisements.

Deputy Dowling also suggested that there was possibly dictation by advertisers as to when and how their advertisements would be presented. There is no question of such dictation and the best advertising spots, that is the times and programmes that attract maximum viewing, are charged for at higher rates, and the people who pay these rates naturally get the best spots. Deputy Keating thought that the RTE Authority should not be nominated by the Government as at present. The present arrangement is laid down by the Broadcasting Authority Act and any change, even if considered desirable, would require legislation.

Deputy Tully, Deputy Desmond and Deputy O'Donnell expressed a wish that party political broadcasts be resumed and urged that the political parties involved should get together for discussions with a view to reaching agreement. This, of course, is a matter between the parties, and RTE, as Deputy Desmond commented, is willing to provide the service if agreement is reached between the parties. Deputy Desmond also urged that RTE, when reporting the proceedings of the Dáil and Seanad, should be in a position to show viewers and let them hear the highlights of proceedings in Leinster House. This is also a matter which would need to be discussed between the parties and, perhaps, the Ceann Comhairle before RTE could take any action.

In my opening statement I mentioned the costs incurred in connection with the inquiry into the RTE "Seven Days" television programme on illegal moneylending. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins expressed concern regarding this matter. As I said, the total amount paid to date is £29,390 and liability has been accepted for other items amounting to over £3,000. These payments are in respect of legal costs and official expenditure on stenography, witnesses' expenses, press advertising, printing, et cetera. The legal costs which account for £24,428 are fees paid to State-employed counsel only, that is, counsel representing the Attorney General, Garda Síochána and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Some claims have been made for the legal expenses of other parties who were represented at the tribunal but no decision has yet been taken as to whether any of these costs will be borne by the State.

Dr. O'Donovan

I believe they were promised in this House by the Taoiseach.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy O'Donovan and I have differed on this matter on previous occasions as a result of a parliamentary question and we still differ on it.

Dr. O'Donovan

I shall have to look up the record.

Mr. G. Collins

On the last occasion on which we discussed the matter, I suggested to Deputy O'Donovan that he should do that. With regard to the pending legislation to amend the 1960 Act, it would appear from Deputy Desmond's contribution that he possibly misunderstood some references I made here on the Second Stage of the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1971. In order to remove any doubt or misconception I should now make it clear that the specific changes I have in mind relate only to such matters as the authority's powers of borrowing and investment in the scope of RTE's superannuation scheme. It is yet too early for me to say whether these changes will be made at all or whether they will be such as will require special legislation.

Speaking in relation to the Gaeltacht radio station, Deputy Begley expressed concern about the extent to which the people of the Gaeltacht will have a say in the selection of programmes broadcast by the new Gaeltacht station which it has been decided to establish. I would like to assure the Deputy it is firmly intended that there will be effective consultation with the people of the Gaeltacht communities in order to ensure that the programmes broadcast will make the maximum contribution to their social and cultural life. Methods of ensuring this, as well as various other questions bearing on control of the new service, are at present under consideration.

Deputy Joe Lenehan asked why the new Gaeltacht station was being located in Galway instead of Donegal or Mayo. In fact, Mayo is getting two transmitters, one at Bangor Erris and the other at Tourmakeady. There will also be one at Gweedore in Donegal. The location of all the transmitters has been carefully planned so as to give the desired coverage.

With regard to Deputy Begley's reference to Comhaltas Cheoltóirí Éireann, I was happy to learn that talks between RTE and Comhaltas Cheoltóirí Éireann were resumed about a month ago and discussions are going on regarding a proposed series of programmes in early summer. I understand that there are a number of other matters under discussion also between the two bodies.

Deputy Tully suggested the abolition of car radio licences.

Mr. Corish

Hear, hear.

Mr. G. Collins

As the law stands, a licence is required for a radio installed in a car and the number of licences concerned render the collection worthwhile. Should the position change I assure the Deputy that the matter will be reviewed.

Mr. Tully

If they were all to be collected, it would be well worthwhile.

Mr. Corish

Why not get after the owners of transistor radios?

Mr. G. Collins

With regard to——

Mr. Corish

The Minister is a stone wall. He never answers us.

Mr. G. Collins

Why did not Deputy Corish come in here during the past four or five weeks and contribute to the debate?

Mr. Corish

I was engaged on more important business.

Mr. G. Collins

I am sure the Deputy was but he has not been seen here during the course of this debate until tonight whereas I have sat here for 20 or 22 hours and listened to everything that was being said. All I want now is one or two hours in which to conclude.

Mr. Corish

The Minister is being well paid for it.

Mr. G. Collins

With regard to the query relating to Decca stations, I understand that An Bord Iascaigh Mhara propose to lease a Decca multi-pulse navigational chain to cover the south west, west and north coasts of the country. I understand that sites have been surveyed and are in the course of being purchased. My Department's interest lies solely in the licensing and the allocation of frequencies for such a system and we will put no difficulty whatsoever in the way.

Deputy Begley referred to television reception in the Dingle peninsula area and, in particular, in the Dún Chaoin area. I understand that there has been a general improvement in West Kerry as a result of modification carried out to the Cahirciveen transposer last year but there are certain mountain districts where reception is still less than adequate. In view of the difficult terrain and the relatively small population to be served, RTE say they are unlikely for some time to come to be able to fit these areas for extended reception.

Mr. Crowley

And Glengarriff?

Mr. G. Collins

Yes, and Fermoy. Also, Abbeyfeale where I sometimes live. I can get radio reception there but I cannot get good television reception. Regarding Deputy Dowling's reference to a link with Ulster Television so as to provide a broader base of news, I understand that there is already a good measure of co-operation with both services in the north in the matter of news gatherage. Naturally, this assists all three services and it helps RTE in presenting a balanced and impartial account of events.

Deputy Crowley expressed strong views as to the provision of a second television station. I have to tell the Deputy that there are no plans for a second television channel because the cost involved would be extremely high. Transmitters and other equipment would cost far more than the existing plant costs because ultra-frequency bands would have to be used for the second channel and more transmitters and greater power would be required for national coverage. I agree that the present television service has some imperfections and unfulfilled needs which, to my mind, should receive priority over a second service. Therefore, the question of a second station has not been considered seriously in detail.

Mr. Crowley

But it is being considered?

Mr. R. Barry

Could the Minister give an approximate figure of the cost?

Mr. G. Collins

I gave an approximate figure of the cost to Deputy O'Donovan some weeks ago. I said then that it would be in the region of several million pounds.

Mr. R. Barry

Does not the Minister think the people in Cork and in the south of Ireland generally are worth that?

Mr. G. Collins

Of course I do but we must be practical. I would love to be able to view BBC, UTV and other programmes but the cost would be too high.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. G. Collins

A Deputy referred to the need for a shortwave station.

It was decided in the 1940s to set up a shortwave service mainly for the Americas, Australia and European countries. The equipment for that purpose was purchased and installed. In April, 1948, when work on this station had not been completed, it was decided to discontinue the project. Some years later the equipment was disposed of on the best terms available and the situation was that the shortwave listening had become negligible because of poor listening conditions and the general absence of shortwave bands on receiving sets; also, because of the spread of television. I am sure the Deputy will be aware that I did say in the Seanad when speaking on the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1971, that I am having the matter re-examined at the moment.

A number of Deputies mentioned the "Seven Days" inquiry. In referring briefly to this subject in my opening statement, I expressed the hope that the "Seven Days" affair would be disposed of without the heat which the matter generated for some time after it was first raised. In saying this, I have no wish whatsoever to stifle discussion if Deputies wish to discuss the matter but I am glad that discussion has been calm.

Mr. Corish

We have had other events since then such as the arms trial and, maybe, the Minister's appointment.

Mr. Crowley

Tell us about Galway. We have not seen Deputy Cruise-O'Brien since then.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy would be surprised to hear where Deputy Cruise-O'Brien is.

Mr. G. Collins

Deputy FitzGerald, unlike most other Deputies, was very anxious to revive the acrimony which surrounded the early stages of the "Seven Days" affair. He made his appearance in this debate to talk from an Olympian height about the inappropriateness of having had the inquiry. He suggested that the purpose in setting it up was to muzzle freedom of speech.

He went on to say that it was evident that there should have been an inquiry. He referred to an amendment to the terms of reference proposed by the leader of his party which was accepted by the Taoiseach. He conveniently overlooked the fact that his party had claimed the credit for demanding the inquiry. He criticised the terms of reference. He said he made no criticism whatever of the tribunal and generally he went around in circles at a rate sufficient to make dizzy a less eloquent performer. Perhaps he even made himself dizzy because, as Deputy O'Donovan said, he departed at once from the House having delivered himself of his words of wisdom.

Having somewhat more respect for the rules of the House than Deputy FitzGerald, I do not intend to criticise or, indeed, to express any opinion on the wisdom of the Oireachtas in deciding that the tribunal should be set up, or in settling its terms of reference but, reluctant though I am to revive animosity, I cannot let Deputy FitzGerald get away altogether with his pontifications about the events leading to the setting up of the tribunal of inquiry.

Mr. R. Barry

Is he not entitled to express his opinion here?

Mr. G. Collins

Very briefly, the facts which are well known to the House are that, shortly after the controversial programme appeared, a number of questions were asked and answered in the House. Various allegations were made and the Opposition parties demanded an inquiry, Deputy FitzGerald among others asking—and I quote from volume 242 of the Official Report of Wednesday 26th November, 1969, column 1873: "Is it not clear that there must be a sworn inquiry?" It became evident that, as the Taoiseach stated on 2nd December, 1969, there was a conflict between the evidence available to the Minister for Justice and the RTE Authority on the authenticity of the content of the "Seven Days" programme and on the question of whether people who took part in the portrayal of the social evil of illegal moneylending were genuine or merely acting a part.

The Taoiseach decided to yield to the Opposition demands that a judicial inquiry be set up. On behalf of his party, Deputy Corish welcomed the decision by the Taoiseach. The late Deputy Sweetman reminded the House that it was Deputy Cosgrave who first asked for the inquiry. On 16th December, the Taoiseach moved a motion for the establishment of a tribunal with terms of reference set out in that motion. During the debate in this House he accepted an amendment proposed by the Leader of the Opposition which asked that the terms should include an examination by the tribunal as to whether or not the statements, comments and implications of the programme reflected reasonable journalistic care on the part of those responsible for the programme. The resolution, as amended, was passed by both Houses and the tribunal was set up in due course.

Deputy FitzGerald had the temerity to say that the Taoiseach had some reason to apologise for his part in the discussions which preceded his decision to accept the Opposition demands for an inquiry. He quoted some of the words used by the Taoiseach but, with his usual dexterity, he avoided referring to the most material statement made in the debate of 16th December in which the Taoiseach said that if what he believed to be the case was found not to be correct he would, of course, be satisfied with the tribunal's findings. The Taoiseach said he would not in any way accuse RTE or their staff of misrepresenting facts or of misrepresenting the situation. He added that this would be a matter entirely for the tribunal. He went on to say that the issue was clearly to decide whether or not what RTE said or what the Garda said was the truth. The Taoiseach's remarks expressed clearly his desire that the conflicting statements made about this unfortunate programme—and the application of the word "unfortunate" I leave to each Deputy to interpret in his own way— should be cleared up by eliciting all the facts from all quarters as fully as possible.

Deputy FitzGerald went on to work himself into a high state of excitement with allegations about his interpretation of what the Minister for Transport and Power said in the Seanad, what counsel for the State said before the tribunal, and with demands for this and demands for that. I am not at all sure whether Deputy FitzGerald wanted the resignation of the Government for having met his party's demand for the inquiry or whether he was really criticising his party leader for making the demand. Deputy FitzGerald expressed his high-minded concern lest the findings of the tribunal, of which he expressed his full approval, should cause a serious loss of morale amongst newspaper men. He said, too, that the judges were asked to apply their legal minds to the question of whether RTE had proved, or could prove, their case in a court of law or had prepared themselves to prove it before the programme was put on. The tribunal were not asked any such thing.

The nearest approach I can get to identifying what Deputy FitzGerald seems to be referring to is the part of the terms of reference saying: "whether or not these statements, comments and implications reflected reasonable journalistic care on the part of those responsible for the programme". As Deputies will recall, this part of the terms of reference was inserted at the request of the leader of the Fine Gael Party. In passing, I may add that I can well understand Deputy FitzGerald's alarm at the suggestion that a criterion such as that proposed in his leader's amendment to the resolution should gain any wide acceptance. The adoption of such a criterion would make life very, very difficult for Deputy FitzGerald. As for the suggestion that a result of the tribunal would be to undermine freedom of speech, I can only say that the Deputy's imagination is over-heated these days.

Apart from Deputy FitzGerald's excited contribution, comments by other Deputies were in a lower key. I think there was a wide measure of, although not universal, agreement with the view expressed in my opening statement that we should look to the future rather than dwell on the past. Deputy FitzGerald, looking down as usual on the political scene from his self-satisfied position on a lonely height, feels that there has been an extraordinary deterioration in parliamentary life over the past 18 months. The temptation to deal severely with Deputy FitzGerald's contribution to this debate is a very enticing one, and a difficult one to resist, but being the very easy-going person that I am, and looking to the season in which we find ourseves, I will resist that temptation. I will confine myself to the remark that one would search hard to find anything in Deputy FitzGerald's speech on this debate contributing in the slightest degree to raising the level of the standard of parliamentary life.

I have deliberately and carefully refrained from making any comment either in support of or in opposition to what Deputies have said on that matter in the course of the debate. We know the history of the setting up of the tribunal and each of us can agree to interpret it in his own way. The tribunal's findings have been published for everyone to read.

They are clearly stated and the tribunal gave their reasons for each finding equally clearly. I prefer to let the tribunal's report speak for itself. As I said in my opening statement, I am confident that the Authority has taken or will take any action arising out of the tribunal's findings.

I should like to thank Members of the House for their tributes to the staffs of the post office throughout the country. I should like to join in their tributes and refer to the headquarters officers concerned with these and all other services given by the Department. I thank our customers for the business they give the post office and for the forbearance they show when occasional failures occur as is inevitable in a service handling hundreds of millions of transactions and for their general goodwill to the post office.

Mr. Corish

May I ask the Minister a question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister is prepared to answer.

Mr. G. Collins

It is a matter for the Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister is prepared to answer.

Mr. Corish

The Minister deliberately gave the impression that the Labour Party agreed to the motion establishing the tribunal with regard to the "Seven Days" programme on illegal moneylending. I want to point out that the Labour Party had a lengthy amendment and the emphasis in it was on an investigation into the question of illegal money lending in the country.

Vote put and agreed to.