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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Jul 1971

Vol. 255 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26: Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £13,762,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Rialtais Áitiúil, lena n-áirítear deontais d'Údaráis Áitiúla, deontais, agus costais eile i ndáil le tithíocht, agus scéimeanna agus deontais ilghnéitheacha lena n-áirítear deontas-igcabhair.
—(Minister for Local Government).

The Minister in his opening speech some weeks ago made reference to the publication of a White Paper concerning the restructuring of local government. This was the subject of commentary from various organisations. I should like to comment briefly on one or two points in that paper. One must admit to a feeling of disappointment on reading through this long report—an overdue report—that it did not represent a more probing examination of the entire system of local government and that it was restricted to an examination of the known local government structure, with the result that the eventual Green Paper apparently assumed as a good model for evolutionary development the existing structure, while admitting that that system is the product of haphazard growth and local organisation based on legislation left over by British Parliaments, and so on. This restriction of the examination to the existing local government system, as an unalterable point of departure, devalues the whole report.

For people residing in the Dublin area, presumably, the big talking point in regard to this report has been, in fact, the really significant change suggested, the creation of the Greater Dublin Area Authority, the proposal to amalgamate and merge Dublin Corporation, of happy memory, Dublin County Council, still with us, Dún Laoghaire Borough Council and Balbriggan Town Commissioners. This proposal has received a good deal of adverse comment from those councillors and those people versed in local government and certainly from those in the Dublin area who are conscious of the lack of participation at local level on the part of the ordinary citizen.

The suggestion is, to say the least, impracticable. To those of us who have experience of the absence of participation of the citizen in local government in the Dublin area, the problem has been that the corporation is something in respect of which he is not consulted save at seven-yearly intervals, under the Local Election Act of 1960. In 1967 we were promised local elections on a five-yearly basis. Up to now, at infrequent intervals, the citizen, the property owner, was consulted at the local election and that was the last consultation that took place between him and his elected representatives until the next local election. If the proposal in the White Paper is carried through it will make it even more difficult than it now is. Those who forecast movement of population over the next few years agree that at least onethird of the population of the country will be concentrated in the Dublin area in the next ten to fifteen years. In fact, one commentator has called the concept of the Greater Dublin Area Authority a mini-Dáil.

This Green Paper claims to be inspired by modern examples elsewhere. It is extraordinary that we should be thinking of this larger area of authority when the tendency elsewhere is to give back power to what they call the neighbourhood, to have neighbourhood power rather than great authority power. In reorganising local government, we should see how much authority, power and real decisionmaking can be restored to people in their own neighbourhoods. This has been done elsewhere. It is certainly the thinking elsewhere. It is regrettable that the local government reorganisation paper should give such little evidence of any thinking in this direction.

Earlier this century the city of Dublin was broken up into different local authority areas. One monument to that is the Rathmines Town Hall. I would suggest that we must go back to that model rather than to what is proposed in this document here, a Greater Dublin area. It may be thought that the larger the unit the more efficiently things can be done. People can be given more power, more real say at local level and that can be associated with greater efficiency in the carrying out of functions. We can break up an area into small, democratic units of decision-making and at the same time tie this in with overall efficiency in a given operational area in the provision of housing and other essential services. There is no contradiction between the objectives of the one and the other.

It appears from my reading of this paper and from the commentaries of others that the thinking of the Department is towards the larger unit at the cost of the individual importance of neighbourhoods or people. This is a very wrong emphasis. The Dublin Corporation was abolished by ministerial edict and one wonders what would happen if in future the greater Dublin authority saw fit to reject some ministeral order in the matter of the carrying out of their functions. We would then find one-third of the population deprived of their ordinary local authority rights.

It is questionable as to whether or not this White Paper on the reorganisation of local government is just another page in the sheaf of surveys and examinations which have been such a feature of Government in recent years. The Department of Local Government are not immune from the disease of the Fianna Fáil administration. It is questionable whether any of the proposals or suggestions contained in this White Paper will be implemented. One is struck by the academic nature of the report. The Minister has given local bodies, at their request, until June next to reply to this paper, but it has also been suggested that local authority elections may take place in June of next year.

June of this year is the actual date.

No, June of next year.

June of this year.

It is next year.

That is for the submissions.

The Parliamentary Secretary is referring to the reply back rather than the election, is that it?

It is June of this year for the return of the questionnaire?

That is my misunderstanding. I thought the Parliamentary Secretary was referring to the election. In any case, judging from the variety of reactions to the White Paper it would be very difficult to see what suggestions in it can be implemented in time for the local elections next year. Somebody commenting on his reaction to the White Paper referred to its emphasis on evolution rather than any radical departure. The evolution was so slow and so cumbersome that it struck him as being geological rather than one that was chronological in known GMT. I sympathise with this view. In his speech the Minister referred to the forthcoming local elections and he said it would be possible to arrange for votes at 18 for Dáil and Presidential elections and for the forthcoming local elections. True democrat that he is, he said he would prefer to know the result of the referendum on Dáil and Presidential voting first. I do not know of any strong lobby against votes at 18. As far as I know the strongest lobby against votes at 18 until recently was the Government and now that the conversion has occurred there I do not imagine there is much opposition to votes at 18. Now that we no longer have a property qualification it would be a healthy and welcome change to see young people taking part in local elections. We heard complaints from the Minister's predecessor about agitations of one kind or another. If the Minister's complaint was that the agitators were not using the existing forums of democratic persuasion of people at local or national levels, he might help in seeing that young people take a constructive part in the shaping of their own environment by arranging for the necessary legislation which would mean that votes at 18 would be here in time for the next local elections.

All of us would prefer to see young people taking a greater part in local politics whatever their political persuasion. This is possible and I am not at all convinced by the Minister's democratic sentiment that he must await a national referendum before introducing votes at 18 for Dáil and Presidential elections, which, of course, must await a constitutional change. We have the Taoiseach on record as saying that the referendum next year will be confined to the EEC issue. We may, therefore, take it that the referendum on this issue cannot take place before what is proposed to be the local elections date. There are many theories about the actual date of all elections but I would ask the Minister, who cannot be described as being in the sere and yellow leaf as the bard would say, to look at this once more and see whether legislation could be brought in to allow votes at 18. We on this side of the House would have no objection to bringing in amending legislation to do this.

In matters concerning local legislation the move elsewhere has been to give power back to the neighbourhoods. New York city is probably the world's greatest single known problem of local democracy, and how to weld it into an area of participation by citizens in the running of their own city. This is how Mayor Lindsay and his administration are proceeding in very difficult circumstances. I am not suggesting the problems of Dublin are similar in all respects but there is a great deal in common between the urban administrations of different areas and there is a great deal one can note from the example of different administrations. This move towards a greater Dublin authority is going to create a further gap between local government, corporation or municipal decisions and those affected, namely the ordinary citizenry of the city and county.

This area is one in which there are new developments in housing. Communities are being broken up and others are being formed. All our efforts must be in the direction of involving these new neighbourhoods in bringing certain responsibility to these new communities. The suggestions contained in this exploratory paper is that the gap between these people and where-ever the city hall is finally sited should be even greater than it now is. Anybody with any experience of local authorities in this city knows the feeling of alienation that exists between the ordinary people and the final lofty decisions of the bureaucracy running the city. This is in fact a bureaucracy without any mediation between the citizenry, through local representatives.

This feeling of distance, of being out of things, of mystification about how exactly decisions are taken will be intensified if the Minister proceeds on the course outlined in the White Paper. So far as I know, those authorities still in existence in the Dublin area have come out against the proposal of the Minister. I am not suggesting that all in this paper is to be condemned out of hand but in relation to the Dublin area the major proposal of the paper is a mistaken one and far from looking to the future it is backward and Victorian and out of touch with the reality of the urban situation here.

I am at one with the Minister in wishing to tidy up the local authority system. We were told at Question Time today that the number of PCs in the country was over 4,000, one to every garda. I do not know what the countdown would be for the number of urban commissioners and all the other local appointments up and down the country but they are numerous. They do not have any great significance and it is questionable whether they give the people any greater degree of participation. We are, to some extent, a representative ridden country. I do not know what the actual ratio of representatives to the population is but it certainly is going up. In many areas they do not have any real function. I am referring particularly to urban areas where they have little power, few decisions to come to and apparently their sole function is to provide copy for the local Press. That is maybe not a bad thing. I am all for entertainment being produced locally because it averts people's gaze from humour which might not be quite as good. It is a good thing to have people looking into their own localities and having pride in their own localities and manufacturing their humour locally. However, if we are serious about the local authority structure and if we really think that our job is to give greater participation to ordinary people, I do not think we will do it by continuing the present haphazard and chaotic system.

It is the feeling of our party, and I suppose of everybody here, that there should be greater participation by ordinary people. To many people this means greater power for the elected representative. That, on the surface of it, is admirable but maybe not quite the same thing as giving greater participation to the ordinary citizens of an area, the non-elected people. Many crimes are committed in the name of democracy but driving up and down this country—I do not know if other Deputies have noticed it—one sees many monuments to the kind of responsibility practiced by some of our elected representatives on these almighty county councils and local bodies. I refer to houses on seashores, along roads. I refer, in fact, to the notorious abuse of section 4 in local authorities. I think members of all parties must admit that no one party has any monopoly or no one council has any monopoly of virtue in this area. We have all heard of many cases, we may not be able to prove these cases, but it would not be too much to suggest that the word "corruption" can be applied to many of these abuses of section 4.

There is more corruption nationally than locally.

At your level.

We are talking about the Department of Local Government and we are all aware of cases up and down the country where we find the planning people on the council or corporation saying that a building in a particular area would destroy scenic amenities, would offend against this article or that article. Under section 4 we find this responsible viewpoint of the people professionally concerned being rejected. I am not saying that in all cases the verdict of the planning divisions of local authorities should stand but I am suggesting that in the majority of cases their verdict must be the correct one seeing that they are the people who concern themselves specifically with the range of problems concerned.

On the other hand, elected representatives are very often under pressure from, perhaps, families or interests in a local area and very often they do not resist these pressures. They give in to these pressures with detrimental consequences to the countryside. I could not find the section of the Minister's speech in which he said that pollution is not a problem here, that we have a small population and a large countryside. The manner in which we deal with physical planning would suggest that we have a sub-continent to play around with instead of a small country. This is a very small country and too many of our local authorities are determined to turn it into an outdoor slum looking at some of the effects of their planning along some of our roads. Too many of our country roads are being turned into Bray runs, the Bray run meaning the end of a green belt outside a city area. Anybody who drives from Galway city, as it is called in that part of the country, west to Carraroe can see another Bray run along that route and it is not the inhabitants of the Gaeltacht who are benefiting. It is certainly not Gaelic speaking inhabitants who are benefiting. Elsewhere in the country we see slap-dash development, too many garages, developments that appear to string along the roadside. We can see in certain coastal areas houses mysteriously going up where the law says they should not. We find in many of these cases elected representatives assenting to such developments.

I have no axe to grind against elected representatives. I am all for their rights but the country does not belong exclusively to the local authority. This kind of local chauvinism which would see us doing anything we like in our local bailiwick and ignoring the consequences for the whole countryside must cease. We cannot prove these things. All I am going on is hearsay and the evidence of my own senses. I would ask the Minister to seriously examine the use of section 4 in recent years. It is suggested that certain counties are worse than others, that in certain counties it has almost become a Magna Carta for the way things should operate. The Minister should examine this because it needs examination. I would say that members of all parties in this House and certainly members of local authorities of all parties are a great deal too lax in this matter. We appear to have the idea that we have a vast country to play around with. I referred to the Minister's remarks on pollution. The same attitude exists in relation to physical planning. Before the attention of the country was distracted by events in the courts, and before the attention of the Government party was distracted by the same events, we were to have had a ministry of physical planning. I have not heard anything about it for a long time. I do not know whether it is one of those ideas that have gone the way of all the other nettles that were to have been plucked. I would suggest that this is a very urgently required ministry.

That is not the statement that was made. It was to be a ministry of physical planning among other things.

Am I correct in thinking——

The Deputy is wrong when he speaks about a ministry of physical planning.

What was suggested?

Nothing has happened anyway.

If my memory serves me correctly we were to have had a Minister with special responsibility for physical planning.

Among other things.

Maybe among other things.

It was spelled out. We will get the record for the Deputy.

I have not heard any more about physical planning, among other things, for some time.

Physical planning is very much alive in the Department of Local Government.

It was very much alive at that time and the Minister himself was very much alive at that time too.

And still is.

He has gone elsewhere since, as the Parliamentary Secretary knows as he comes from Donegal. This debate is too important for me to start going into the rivalries in County Donegal.

The Deputy should be accurate.

I strive to be, and the Parliamentary Secretary has been of immense assistance in reminding me of what is on record. I am sure he will join with me in regretting that nothing has happened in the interim period.

Physical planning is progressing very well.

Maybe there is something in what the Parliamentary Secretary says. Perhaps things make good progress in the absence of anybody in charge of them.

The Department of Local Government have full responsibility for planning, with the local authorities.

I have drawn attention to certain things.

The Deputy said he could not prove them.

The Parliamentary Secretary comes from an area in which very strange things have happened on the sea shore and where strange houses and hotels and motels have gone up.

The Deputy cannot give an example.

One could say that Donegal is becoming a Las Vegas. Donegal needs a form of planning unless the scenery is to be very severely impaired. We could look at the locale of some of the hotels.

The Deputy should give examples.

I will be speaking on this matter on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday of next week and I may have the examples then. I have not got the same resources as the Parliamentary Secretary. This is a one-man impression. I admit it may be a biassed impression, or, perhaps, I have gone to the wrong parts of the country but it is my impression that we are very careless about preserving an unspoiled countryside. Up to recently to talk about scenery would court very severe ridicule because nobody could see any political point in talking about it. As the man said, what money is there in scenery? True enough. Other countries in a more advanced state of industrial development are attempting too late to correct some of the errors they made at earlier stages of their development. It makes sound sense for us to note the deteroriating situation around us.

I will leave Dublin city aside for the moment and refer to certain places, to which I referred in a previous debate on this Estimate, where we are rapidly despoiling our real resources in scenery and other amenities. In their abuse of section 4 members of all parties are to some extent responsible for this development.

I can assure the Deputy that section 4 does not have the effect he says. Generally, there is an appeal against section 4. The percentage of planning appeals eventually granted under section 4 is very insignificant.

I am not referring to the stage where the elected representatives——

This is section 4.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary assure me that the number is negligible?

I accept his word. I do not say that section 4 is entirely responsible. I notice that we are not keeping our towns concentrated around a centre. They are straggling out around the side roads away from the town. I still see too many examples of houses going up in places where they should not, according to the plan. I have no explanation as to how this development is coming about.

The Minister said he was not too greatly worried about pollution. In the past few weeks I read that Lough Sheelin in Cavan was polluted by fertilisers or something like that. We have read in recent months that this river or that river was polluted. I got an impression from the Minister's speech —perhaps, he did not intend to give it—that he was pretty complacent about this matter. In the Dublin area the pollution problem is no longer a matter that does not interest the citizens. Dublin Bay has become notorious for the type of pollution problems arising there. In my own constituency which borders on Dublin Bay, along the entire Clontarf area the residents are really alarmed, as I am sure the citizens of North Dublin are, at the kind of industrial development that is taking place in the Dublin Bay area under the aegis of the Dublin Port and Docks Board, a body that apparently knows no master, knows no check, knows nothing about consultation but continues its goalless life totally apart from any check with any known group.

I can assure the Minister for Finance that the residents of Clontarf would be interested to hear what he has to say on this matter. I hope he will be able to take time from his other duties to take part in this debate and speak for a few minutes on the problems of Dublin Bay. He was very vocal on this subject in the Clontarf area during the last election. It would be interesting to know what he thinks about the situation now. The port and docks development out into the bay and the growing pollution of the bay itself as a result of sewage disposal methods were not referred to in the Minister's speech. It will be expensive, I admit, but very shortly we must try to improve the method of sewage disposal into Dublin Bay. The present method is antiquated. It is suggested that any other method would prove more costly but sooner or later we will be forced to adopt these other methods and, perhaps, it would be better to adopt them now rather than refuse to take any action.

Housing is one of the matters referred to by the Minister. This is a matter that we discussed at length at various times with his intransigent predecessor. Mr. Boland told us on many occasions of the manner in which the housing problem in Dublin was being solved. About three years ago the Labour Party put down a motion on which we spoke during Private Members' Time over a period of three weeks. This motion dealt with the controlling of the price of land for housebuilding purposes. We were not advocating that land should be stolen from anybody. All we were interested in was that land prices would be stabilised. Land for building purposes in the Dublin area has skyrocketed and is a big element in the increasing cost of houses. The Minister who has declared himself to be very concerned with this problem seems to be of the opinion that the greatest advance to be made in the provision of cheaper housing is in the building of a cheaper type of house.

Admittedly, the Minister has set up a study committee with a view to ascertaining how the price of land for building can be controlled. The Minister, like his predecessor, has always been very secretive as to what are the legal problems that prevent the stabilising of land prices so as to enable urban development to continue at a reasonable cost level. In our motion we did not cite any examples east of an iron curtain, a bamboo curtain, or any other curtain, nor did we consider what might be referred to as socialist systems. We saw that in west European countries it had been found possible to control the price of land for building and we sought the same right here so that houses could be provided at a reasonable cost.

At present the element of the price of land in the total cost of a house amounts to about one-third. That must be one of the major elements in the cost factor. The development at, for example, Donaghmede has been delayed for many months. That was a contract between Dublin Corporation and the Gallagher Group. That development is a perfect example of the way in which housing costs in the city have rocketed. From information I have been able to obtain, it appears that the corporation in drawing up the contract with the Gallagher Group did not set out any schedule for completed targets over monthly periods.

Three years ago anybody who was lucky enough to qualify for a house in the Donaghmede area would have required a deposit of about £350 but today the deposit required would be about £850. I have spoken to people who have been waiting for houses in that area and who had the deposit two years ago. As deposits increased they continued saving so as to have the necessary amount but they now find that the deposit is totally beyond their means. Any society in which the most thrifty of its citizens are working overtime for a number of years with the object of owning their own house is in trouble if it cannot ensure that such citizens will get a house. These citizens who are not asking for charity are placed in an intolerable position. This results in their having to live in flats in respect of which there is no control on rents. Only this morning the House was reminded of people who must pay £7 or £8 a week for one-room flats. This situation prevails all over the city. How could anybody save in such a situation? Some people may ask why a couple should get married if they have not saved the deposit on a house. I would say that if any young couple in Dublin who intended marrying were to postpone their wedding date until such time as they had accumulated a deposit on a house they would find themselves in early middle age before they could do the honourable thing and marry.

The Donaghmede development gives us, during the three years of its operation, an insight into the whole tragedy of the Dublin situation. Uncontrolled land prices lead to the higher cost of houses. I am aware that the corporation sought to stabilise land prices. They did this by going into the land purchase business and building up land banks. Tribute must be paid to the corporation for their efforts in this regard. At least they attempted to do what was in their power to do in so far as the stabilising of land prices is concerned. However, the corporation on their own cannot solve the housing problem. They must have help from the Government. I accept that there are constitutional and legal problems which prevent the State controlling land prices and I would hope that the committee that has been set up would very soon devise a method whereby, constitutionally and legally, arrangements can be made for the stabilising of land prices, thereby ensuring that the great injustices now being meted out to ordinary citizens will be discontinued.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 6th July, 1971.
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