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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 1971

Vol. 256 No. 1

Adjournment Debate:Northern Ireland Situation.

I move:

That the Dáil do now adjourn.

The time allotted to each speaker is limited and therefore I propose, without in any way commenting on the reasons for the recall of the Dáil —that is the recall a week earlier than it would otherwise have met— to go into the subject matter. Deputies will recall that before the Adjournment for the Summer Recess on 6th August, this House was extremely concerned because of the impending Apprentice Boys' parade in Derry and the consequences that threatened to flow from it if it was permitted to take place. I asked on that occasion whether it was agreeable or acceptable to the northern majority that the tenure of office of their Government should seem to depend on whether or not that kind of parade in Derry should again be permitted and accomplished this year. I went on to say that surely it was realised in London that responsibility went hand in hand with claimed authority; that if responsibility were shirked and if the Stormont Government were seen to depend for their continuance in office on the appeasement of a bigoted and intolerant group of men they would not long survive, and indeed they would earn the contempt of all fair-minded people, including fair-minded British people.

The appeasement of intolerant and bigoted men was achieved all right and in full measure—three days ahead of the planned Derry spectacle. The violence of a sectarian parade was replaced by an act of greater violence against the minority in the application of onesided internment without trial. It is hardly necessary to recount in detail the history of the horrible aftermath— an aftermath which unfortunately is still with us. The news media carried graphic details of the violence and its consequences sparked off by internment swoops; details of death and destruction at a rate which far exceeded anything experienced since the current unrest on a large scale began in 1969; details of intimidation; of allegations of torture and brutality; of suffering and evacuation of many people from their homes, several thousands of whom sought refuge here.

At this stage I should like to thank all those who assisted the refugees in their plight. The unprecedented flow of women and children across the Border placed a very heavy strain on our immediate resources. I am sure that the whole House will join with me in an expression of thanks to the various bodies, religious communities, individuals, and in particular the Army personnel, who did so much to accommodate and help these innocent victims. The fact that several hundred are still with us serves as a reminder that deprivation and fear are still serious problems and that little progress has been made towards solving them.

I stated on 9th August, the date of its introduction, that internment without trial in the North directed against one section of the community was deplorable evidence of the political poverty of the policies that had been pursued in that area for some time. I called for a conference of all the interested parties in order to obtain a new form of Administration for Northern Ireland so as to avoid further deaths and injury. In this connection the Minister for Foreign Affairs went to London to find out where the British Government stood in this situation. On 12th August I said that the Stormont Government should be replaced by an Administration in which power and decision-making would be equally shared between Unionists and non-Unionists. In doing so I pointed out that there existed in the North a Government whose main concern appeared to be to meet the wishes and demands of the most extreme elements within the Unionist community. The implementation of the Downing Street declaration of August, 1969, I said, had been delayed and distorted by that Government. That comment which I made led to the production of a White Paper by the northern authorities setting out the action taken by them on the reform programme. This in turn led to the issuing of a commentary on the White Paper by minority representatives on public bodies in Northern Ireland who felt constrained to rebut in detail the sweeping assertions that the commitments to reform had been fully honoured or were in the process of being honoured. Copies of these two documents are in the Dáil Library for the convenience of Deputies. On 19th August, in a message to the British Prime Minister and Mr. Faulkner, who were then conferring at Chequers, I underlined the fact that internment and the military operations then in progress were a failure and that solutions would have to be found by political means.

I pointed out that if the existing policy of attempting military solutions were continued I intended to support the policy of passive resistance being pursued by the non-unionist population. And I repeated my earlier offer to participate in a meeting of all the interested parties in the event of agreement to a policy of finding solutions by political means. The contents of Mr. Heath's rejoinder are well known and need no repetition here. Suffice it to say that Mr. Heath invited me to Chequers for discussions on the Northern Ireland situation on 6th and 7th September and again on 27th and 28th September, with Mr. Faulkner participating on the second occasion. These discussions were as the communiqué afterwards indicated, wide-ranging and covered all aspects of the situation in Northern Ireland. I emphasised, of course, that the only ultimate solution lay in a united Ireland; that without prejudice to the realisation of that aim, political rather than military initiatives were urgently required to bring peace and justice to the North; I also stated that I saw in quadripartite talks the best hope of formulating such initiatives; that new structures were required in the North because the attempt to govern the area with a Parliament based on the West-minister model had been such a total failure; I added that obviously one-sided internment was a tragic mistake and would have to end quickly if progress were to be achieved; that the 100,000 licensed guns in the North, almost twice as many as in the South per head of population, and more than four times as many on a territorial basis, should be impounded; that the majority in the North were made insensitive to the political aspirations of the minority by the nature of the guarantee contained in the Ireland Act of 1949. Further back, on the 11th July, I suggested in the speech at the Garden of Remembrance that that guarantee should be re-formulated. During these meetings Mr. Heath recognised that it was legitimate for the non-unionist population in the North to work for the reunification of Ireland by political means. I put it to him that violence is a by-product of the division of the country; that an immediate central issue was the restoration of influence to the elected leadership of the minority so that they could participate in discussions about future political arrangements and structural changes in Northern Ireland. These elected representatives, I said, were entitled to an effective voice in government and decision-making.

In the joint communiqué issued after the second meeting at Chequers on 28th September, we stated that it was our common purpose to see the ending of violence and internment and all other emergency measures, and that these should be ended without delay. The ending of internment without trial now would remove a barrier to political discussions with the true representatives of the minority and these would help to clear the way for the developments I have mentioned. Otherwise, the reference in the communiqué to the hope that—and I quote—"the process of political reconciliation may go forward to a successful outcome" will continue to have a hollow ring.

Stormont's attempt at reform in the North has been a dismal failure, as the commentary on the White Paper to which I have referred earlier attests. If Stormont cannot reform itself, then Stormont itself must be reformed. The elected representatives of the minority have had discussions with me on a number of occasions and I know their views in this respect. I believe, too, that the Opposition parties have had discussions with them and know these views equally well. The British Home Secretary, Mr. Maudling, said at Westminster, in the debate on 22nd September, that the object of his talks with various groups from Northern Ireland is—and I quote—"to find agreed ways whereby there can be assured to the minority and majority communities alike an active, permanent and guaranteed part in the life and public affairs of Northern Ireland". He said that four times in the speech but he also said that—and I quote again—"one cannot create a cohesive Government if people do not denounce violence or if people are not prepared to accept the will of the majority on the fundamental point about the Border which succeeding Governments have always accepted in this country". The elected leaders of the minority with whom I have had discussions have, as we all know, repeatedly denounced violence, and thus they have met Mr. Maudling's first condition. On his second condition, I would hesitate to advise anyone to be guided by what succeeding British Governments have accepted in Northern Ireland in the past—they have accepted far too much as Cameron, Hunt and other impartial observers have shown.

On the question of the Border nothing will induce up to 40 per cent of the Northern Ireland population to endorse it nor are they required to do so under the terms of the Downing Street Declaration or Mr. Heath's remarks to me in relation to the legitimate aspiration of unity being a legitimate political aim. They are entitled to maintain that attitude in order to obtain and practise their rights to the full. Mr. Maudling knows this very well even if Mr. Faulkner differs from his views and from the views expressed to me by Mr. Heath.

The British Government must some day recognise the true nature of Northern Ireland. They sometimes say that that area is as much a part of the United Kingdom as Yorkshire, but the palpable nonsense of this thesis is demonstrated when they also say that Northern Ireland is a democracy in its own right; and that it is entitled to have a Parliament and a Government which represent permanently only part of the population of that area; and that this Government should have extensive powers to coerce and discriminate against a substantial minority of the population of the area—all of which it has done and continues to do. Yorkshire has no such structure or authority—and I dare to say that if it had it would use them much more wisely. Time is long overdue for British Governments to rid their minds of such ideas. Even within the terms of the internal affairs of the United Kingdom, Britain has unqualified responsibility, by virtue of section 75 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, for the good governance of Northern Ireland.

The section states that, and I quote : "The supreme authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall remain unaffected and undiminished over all persons, matters and things" in Northern Ireland. To suggest, as has been too often the case, that Britain's hands are tied to a particular kind of administration for the area, and to all the consequences that flow from that, is a mere pretext for evading real responsibility for them. This becomes all the more obvious in circumstances where a substantial part of the British armed forces is used to implement certain repressive measures, where a substantial portion of the wealth of Britain is used, without proper accountability to anyone, to maintain a regime which has shown constant bias in its uses of that wealth, and where British prestige suffers internationally by British support of methods and manners of government which would be anathema in Yorkshire or anywhere else.

Time and again, publicity and privately, I have said that Northern Ireland is no ordinary society. Its territory results from an Act of the British Parliament which had no sanction from the people of Ireland. As Mr. Roy Hattersly, MP, a Minister in the previous British Government, has recently written of the origin of the State, and I quote: "It was a direct and calculated gerrymander, so blatant that at the time of its perpetration even the men who drew the crooked line had to promise a revision." It is no ordinary democracy. It is, instead, a carefully chosen enclave whose demography ensures that even if democratic principles were strictly observed and applied—and no one, I assert, can argue that they have been—one party holds power permanently.

Again, quoting Hattersly, the history of the Border "makes all the talk about a sovereign nation, democratically committed to its present shape and size, sound more like cant than conviction". There is, therefore, nothing genuinely democratic in the origin or in the present Government of the north. Indeed, its practices are nearer to totalitarianism than to anything else. As Mr. Richard Crossman, also a Minister in the last British Government, said on 23rd September last: "This is not a natural State of any kind at all. It is an artificial, political product created to destroy political rights and to maintain one group of people in permanent power. By its very essence it denies every principle of democracy and always has from the time the House of Commons created it." He was referring, of course, to the West-minister House of Commons.

I am sure that British public opinion, if it fully recognised the nature of the North, would not tolerate it for a moment; not only would the British public not tolerate it, but they would question the propriety of having their Army maintain a system of Government which is exclusively concerned with perpetuating the totality of its own control; they would question their duty to maintain financially a system which deliberately excludes the talents and abilities of almost 40 per cent of the population from the management of the State; they would question the abuse of their own British democratic principles; they would be the first to say that the whole purpose of the Northern Ireland Parliament and Government must be re-examined fundamentally; and I believe, too, they would support the refusal of the Northern minority to have anything further to do with it.

I believe they would go further : far from being an integral part of the United Kingdom in any realistic sense whatever, they know that the North is part of Ireland. It contains a population of whom about 60 per cent claim to wish to adhere to Britain— even if many of them do not adhere to British principles of behaviour. The other 40 per cent pretend no such allegiance and feel no need of it. They are entitled to be themselves, that is to say, to be Irish and not also British. They are, in fact, the majority in more than half the area of Northern Ireland. These are statements of fact and not of fancy.

In recent weeks British Government spokesmen have said that this minority are entitled to, and I quote this oftrepeated phrase. "an active, permanent, and guaranteed part in the life and public affairs of Northern Ireland". Both Mr. Heath and Mr. Maudling have said this. Mr. Faulkner, on the other hand, has said that the Government of Northern Ireland has no place for this minority. Will Mr. Heath or Mr. Maudling now publicly state whether their views will prevail or whether Mr. Faulkner's conditions will be applied? I think it is vital that they should answer this question as bluntly as I have put it. Or, will we see again the spectacle of the British Government expressing unexceptionable principles while their Unionist clients refuse to practise them?

Will a British Government again falter in the application of the rules of good government, sensible politics, and reasonable behaviour in Northern Ireland—to all of which Britain is committed—simply because of the impertinent demand of a very small minority in these islands to dictate policy to the British Government in their own sectional interest? Or will the British Government finally decide that the minority in Northern Ireland have the right to work peacefully for change—for political as well as social change? To do so may be "disloyal" -and I put the "disloyal" in inverted commas—to Unionism; but what is the essence of politics in the North except whether or not the people of the North want a continuation of the State as it exists or an alteration of it?

Not only is "disloyalty"-again in inverted commas—to Unionism legitimate, but it must be given a constitutional framework under which it is protected and can be effective. To do otherwise is to state that Britain herself intends to maintain a Unionist hegemony which is destructive of British prestige, of harmony in Northern Ireland and of a better arrangement of things between Ireland and Britain. For myself I do not believe that the experience of the past 50 years, and, in particular, of the past few years, will continue to be the pattern for the future. There will be no beginning to permanent peace in Ireland, or permanent harmony in these islands, until the British Government accept their proper responsibilities and assert in the interim their claimed authority over Northern Ireland.

In this respect the nature of the guarantee given to Unionism in the Ireland Act, 1949, to which I have already referred, is contrary to the best interests of Britain and Ireland. It is also contrary, I assert, to the best interests of the Unionist population of Northern Ireland. It serves only to put them all in the hands of the most extreme among them who have charged themselves with the duty of seeing to it that nothing shall ever change and that no element of their domination, not merely of Northern Ireland but of British policy in regard to Northern Ireland, shall ever be diminished. We should not fall into the error of identifying the whole northern majority with the extremists amongst them. There are many hundreds of thousands of them who resent and repudiate the vulgar and deadly abuse made of their religion by people whose interests are wholly selfish. The Protestant community are as much entitled as anyone else to obtain the kind of policies from the British Government that will enable them to shake off the remnants of the 17th and later centuries and develop a healthy society which is Christian and not sectarian. The future of Ireland is their future, too, and we should never forget this.

I would like Mr. Maudling to understand that deeply. He has said that, even with the fulfilment of the reform programme, there remained another difficulty—the feeling of the minority that they could never hope to participate in the government of the area. He added that where party alignment was based on religion and where there was no prospect of a change of government the minority could genuinely feel that they did not have the full opportunity, to which they were entitled, to share and serve in the government of the area. Lord Stoneham who was a Home Office Minister with responsibilities for Northern Ireland in the last Government had this to say in the British House of Lords as recently as 22nd September:

Most members of Your Lordship's House know some of the members of the Opposition in Northern Ireland. Those I know are reasonable people, people completely opposed to violence. They are decent, responsible, leading people. They are more anxious than we are to give a lead to their people to end the violence and to bring about peaceful conditions.

While we are sitting here men of great integrity and courageous conduct, the kind of men Lord Stoneham spoke of, are engaged on a hunger strike outside No. 10 Downing Street to draw attention to the evils of current policy in the North. They are, as the House knows, John Hume, MP, Austin Currie, MP, and Paddy O'Hanlon, MP. They may be ignored; people may brush past them. It may be that, in spite of what they have said and done to show a better way forward, their present protest will be refused as many other of their ideas have been in the past refused only to be accepted later. That may be. But if it should be, the failure is not theirs; the intransigence is not theirs; the fault is not theirs. But the victory over intolerance and discrimination must certainly come.

In these circumstances it is necessary that the British Government should suggest enactment without delay of a form of administration for Northern Ireland in which the minority, led by men of the calibre of those I have mentioned, will participate by right. The alternative is a continuation of what we are seeing today—military repression and coercion of the minority, a reaction of violence and destruction by elements among the minority, and a cynical and unworthy attempt to blame this part of the country for what is wrong in the north.

I would like to say a few words on that subject. Border roads are being cratered at the present time. Lord Windlesham admitted in the House of Lords recently—he is a Minister in the present Government—that "there were relatively few crossings by terrorists"— crossings of the Border he meant. Violence in Belfast and elsewhere in the north is indigenous to the area and receives its main support from within the area. It is dishonest on the part of the Stormont Government to pretend otherwise. It is particularly inappropriate for the British Government to lend their authority and prestige to a form of confirmation of Unionist propaganda in this respect.

When I agreed to go to Chequers to discuss Northern Ireland with Mr. Heath on 6th and 7th September, and when I agreed later to revisit him on 27th and 28th September, in a meeting at which Mr. Faulkner was also present, it was part of my intention and purpose to demonstrate the need -the vital and immediate necessity— for political action rather than further and even more disastrous military operations than had occurred already. We now have the spectacle, comic if it were not so dangerous, of an attempt to create a physical division of Ireland. There is no military excuse for or value in this exercise. If it is intended to intimidate the northern minority it has already failed in its purpose, as they have shown. If it is intended to encourage even greater demands from extreme Unionists, that certainly has been accomplished. Nothing less than barbed wire, electric fences and other such products of sick imaginations will ever satisfy such people. I confess that my imagination has not risen to finding any intelligent reason for this kind of activity at all.

Yesterday near Castleblayney armed British forces were observed by a member of the Garda Síochána in a firing position about 300 yards inside the Twenty-six Counties. A British armoured vehicle was parked about 20 yards south of the Border and several more soldiers were observed at a nearby shed, also south of the Border. A protest has been made about this further infringement by the British Army. I may say that I told Mr. Heath that such incidents would repeat themselves and that they may do so with increasing gravity—if British policy continues to be directed at the wrong objectives and at the wrong people. It gives me no pleasure to see my warning borne out already. I hope that better counsel will prevail and that the British Government will draw back from this last crazy attempt to intimidate Irish people on either side of the Border. If behind this new "barrier" of holes in the road, there are, as alleged, brutality, torture and the taking of innocent lives, the truth will not be hidden by them. I have noted that the committee of inquiry into allegations of brutality headed by Sir Edmund Compton is now also stated to have begun inquiries some time ago into allegations of torture. I might note in passing that Mr. Faulkner last Sunday on BBC radio already forecast the result when he said that there had been no brutality of any kind against either a detainee or an internee. He did not, however, discuss what might have happened to anyone between the time of his arrest and the time a detention order was served on him.

There are serious defects in the terms of reference of the Compton Inquiry, two of which need to be mentioned. Firstly, the inquiry is being held in private and not in public. Secondly, there is no possibility of legal representatives of complainants being permitted to question witnesses other than their own clients and, indeed, this concession was given with some reluctance and only after some delay. It seems highly unlikely that an inquiry so restricted can achieve the truth. The Government have this matter under consideration. We have received many reports from reliable people including elected representatives and members of the legal profession in the North. We have, as yet, taken no decision on the matters referred to us. I assure the House, however, that the holes in the road between here and Girdwood Barracks and any other places where brutality and torture are alleged to have been practised on Irish people do not create, to use Mr. Faulkner's words, a "barrier of ignorance" between us and them.

All three parties in this House are agreed that the reunification of Ireland should come by peaceful means. All three parties subscribed unanimously to a motion in that sense which was tabled by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party on 9th March last. I have on many occasions condemned violence in Northern Ireland by whomsoever perpetrated and so have the Opposition Parties here. I also condemn what I call institutional violence—which includes the sort of violence that discriminates against a man and renders him permanently unemployed.

As the unrest continues and escalates, more and more influential people are taking a deeper look at the problem and making, for them, an interesting discovery. To give an example, Michael Stewart, the Foreign Secretary in the last British Government, the Government that was seized of the Northern Ireland problem when violence broke out seriously in 1969, now realises that the Border is an issue, in fact the issue. Mr. Stewart repeated at Westminster on 22nd September what he had already said last August, and I quote:

We must think in terms of a united Ireland, whether we like it or not.

He concluded his speech by saying:

I say this strongly and out of deep conviction. I know very well all the objections which will be raised to it, but I say it in the deep belief that after all those objections have been made and the policy which I am advocating has been rejected, ten or 20 years later and goodness knows how many lives later this policy inevitably will have to be accepted. The sooner we realise that, the more fortunate will be the circumstances in which it can be brought about.

It has been alleged that we in the Twenty-six Counties, especially the Government, are tolerant of illegal organisations, that our controls are lax in regard to the storage and movement of explosives and that, consequently, there is a good deal of illegal cross-Border activity. I have denied these allegations on a number of occasions and so has the Minister for Justice. The repetition of the charge by unscrupulous people does not alter the facts. Anyone who has studed the situation cannot say that the unrest in Northern Ireland originates in any measure from here. Of the hundreds of people convicted or interned in Northern Ireland over the past three years only a few came from outside Northern Ireland and some of that few came from countries other than Ireland.

It is frequently alleged that most of the gelignite used in the North in these illegal activities comes from the South. The fact of the matter is, of course, that more than half of the North's legitimate imports of gelignite is manufactured here. Therefore, it is more than likely that much of that which is being used illegally is procured from these legitimate exports from this part of the country. Nevertheless, security has been tightened and vigilance will continue to be strict.

Mr. Heath and his colleagues in Government know perfectly well that the troubles in the North do not emanate from the Twenty-six Counties and I told him, in this connection, that I would be prepared to make with him a joint approach to the United Nations for a United Nations observer group along the Border. I have repeated that offer several times but it has not found favour with him. If, however, there are repeated and more serious incursions by the British Army across the Border it may become necessary to seize the United Nations of this issue as a threat to international peace.

Instead of creating international incidents along the Border we should be involved in building bridges between North and South, not in the creation of more puerile and more ineffective barriers between the people of this island.

Further military measures are promised almost daily. If these things are being done to appease Unionist extremists the end of the road in that direction is the further imposition on the British public of responsibility, in every sense, for the kind of Government which they would abhor for themselves and find remarkably unappealing in any other part of the world. It cannot be acceptable to them to know that the advisory committee on internees expects internees to appear before it deprived of the assistance of a lawyer. This gives the internee no real opportunity to do justice to his case. Even if he has a lawyer to assist him in the preparation of his case, he is expected to prepare his written submission without knowledge of the allegations made against him. Kafka, a mid-European writer, in his book The Trial describes this kind of procedure in a totalitarian state which he does not name. The accused, I think, was not made aware of the charges against him and, therefore, could not defend himself against an accusation and certainly, of course, could not clear himself of it. There is no justice where such a thing can happen. There is, indeed, no law where this can happen. This is the jungle of Unionist politics to which the British people are expected to give their permanent support. Indeed, Lord Stoneham, whom I quoted already, also had this to say on 22nd September and I quote :

The first move should be the immediate release of those now detained against whom it is not proper to bring charges. If there is something against them, if they have done something, then charge them. Otherwise let them go. That is British justice.

Deputies will be aware that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has restated forcefully at the United Nations our attitude in regard to the current situation in the North and has corrected an allegation that the problems there stem solely from a confrontation arising out of religious differences. He has had discussions also in New York with the United Nations Secretary-General and with several Foreign Ministers.

Nearer home, at the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, the Irish delegation have promoted a motion for the establishment of a representative group appointed by the Political Affairs and Legal Affairs Committee of the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe to study the situation in Northern Ireland and recommend appropriate legal and administrative provisions that would guarantee the involvement of the northern minority in all decision-making and administrative processes. This motion has been referred to the Political Affairs Committee for a report to the Legal Affairs Committee for an opinion. I welcome this development as evidence of the serious concern of European countries with developments in Northern Ireland: it reinforces the demands we have been making that a formula must be found urgently for the full and genuine participation of the minority in the affairs of the North.

When speaking in the emergency debate on Northern Ireland in the British House of Commons on 22nd September, Mr. Harold Wilson was conscious of the international implications for Britain of the deteriorating situation in the North and the security measures being adopted there. In this connection, Mr. Wilson said:

The British Government and this House bear the international responsibility of defending in the councils of the world, including the United Nations and the European Commission on Human Rights, any action taken in Great Britain and Northern Ireland which derogates internationally-agreed conventions about human rights obligatory on the United Kingdom. The Special Powers Act and action taken under it involving imprisonment without trial are breaches of those obligations.

If the wrong policies are now being pursued in the North—and I am convinced, and I am sure most people here are convinced, that that is the position—it is certainly not because of any failure on our part to point this out to the British Government at the highest level and to suggest courses of positive, constructive action.

It is futile to think that it is within the power of a Unionist Government to find a basis for establishing peace, justice and progress in Northern Ireland. Fifty years of history have proved this. No matter how often the Unionist Party changes Prime Minister, the fundamental fact is that it has not the will or the capacity to govern fairly and honestly. The mass withdrawal of minority representatives from various public bodies and their collective commentary on the reform programme is proof of this. These people made a very genuine attempt over the years to improve the lot of the entire community in the North by trying to work within the existing system, notwithstanding its serious limitations and its in-built institutionalised discriminatory practices. Many of them have now withdrawn from further participation.

As I said earlier, in a situation where the British Government have allowed themselves to be dragged into a jungle of Unionist politics, there is neither law, justice nor reason. We can point this out with vehemence to the British Government and we have done so. If they choose not to listen, their posture becomes the same as that of the Unionist authorities. The responsibility for deliberate coercion of the minority in the North becomes even more clearly the direct responsibility of the British Government. The facade of operating through the Stormont Government becomes even more wretched and derisory. The non-Unionist community in Northern Ireland must be brought into participation in an administration in which they share authority with the rest of the community. What other solution is there? Here again I should like to quote from Lord Stoneham who said:

...as I see it, the choice before us, and it is our choice, is either moderation and firmness to ensure justice for all the people of Northern Ireland, or, if you must have it, force. And you will be compelled to use still more force to ensure the final bloody chapter of the Irish disaster. It has been going on for a hundred years. It is now coming to an end. I can only pray that we shall do the right thing while there is still time.

These are sobering words. In a sense, they are reflected in what Mr. Heath said last week, from a different point of view, at the Conservative Party Conference. He suggested that the withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland would result in a civil war in which the South would become involved. I take it for granted that he said this in a spirit of goodwill and with a sense of responsibility. However, a sharper sense of Irish history must have indicated to him how dangerous these words are. We have had already too many decades of violence and threatened violence. It remains intolerable that a situation of violence should again exist, increasingly affecting us all, and that it is, in large measure, due to a continued refusal to grasp the Orange nettle which stings the dignity of the majority in Northern Ireland, attempts to humiliate the minority, threatens the peace generally and then expects to be supported by Britain in all this.

The overwhelming majority of Irish people North and South, Catholic and Protestant alike, have shown an enormous capacity for restraint in the face of all this provocation. There lies beneath this an obvious desire to live in peace and harmony among ourselves. This is a reality that will continue to inform the policies and actions of this Government—as it has indeed the decisions of this House. From this Britain can surely find better policies than are now being pursued.

It is said that the sins of the parents should not be visited on the children. It is only right not to blame current administrations for the mistaken policies of the past but we must all learn from the mistakes of the past.

Deputies may have heard on today's radio news a reference to a speech that Senator Kennedy is making in the American Senate in which he says that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Time and again this Government have pointed the way to the solution of the remaining problem that lies between us and Britain. A solution will be found some time. The British Government can and are in a position to promote that solution. The nation that is strong, that acts with justice of its own volition towards its weaker neighbours will be applauded by world opinion.

The gravity of the present situation makes it worthwhile having this debate. Otherwise the purpose of having a debate at this time would seem of little point because it is being held long after some of the events that were serious enough to warrant recalling the House.

The present situation is so grave that people in this country are deeply concerned about it. They are concerned from two angles. They are concerned because of the situation in the North of Ireland and they are concerned and anxious because of the apparent breakdown at regular intervals of the forces of order and the threat to the security of the State here.

The Press comment recently, and particularly the reference today in the Irish Independent, stated that the situation was such that it was right that the Dáil should discuss it. It is unnecessary at this stage to recount what has happened or the various recent events which have culminated in the present serious situation, but it is right and proper that this House should not merely direct its attention to but, through the influence and authority which it has and the support which it can give to agreed national policy, endeavour to make clear the attitude of the majority of the people of this country to the problem of the North of Ireland.

We have, as has been repeatedly said, held the view that the northern problem cannot be solved by violence. This is the view of the majority of the people in this part of the country and it needs at times to be restated and re-emphasised. We have said that because we believe that the attempt to shoot or bomb the way to a united Ireland, even if the attempt succeeded, by killing thousands is not the type of unity or prospect in which we could have confidence, or in which we would hope to see Irishmen of different persuasions living together. However, that does not in any way lessen our criticism or weaken our absolute rejection of the manner in which British policy has been carried on not only in recent weeks but over a very long period.

It is no exaggeration to say that British policy towards Ireland has been characterised for centuries, and for the last 50 years, at times by malice, at times by ignorance, but almost always by stupidity and that stupidity has been shown clearly in recent actions—let me be impartial in this— by all British political parties. It is illusory to imagine we will get a bit more out of one than out of another. Once you scratch them they are all the same. There are some individual exceptions to this, though most of them give vent to these views when they are out of office rather than when they are in it.

The one thing which has characterised this party in our attitude towards this problem is that we have been consistent, not always getting recognition either at home or abroad, not always getting recognition either from the electorate or from those who express views on it, but at least time and events, if they have done nothing else, have reinforced our conviction that our policy is right and they have at least silenced those who were glib with their criticisms and facile with their comments. We have been through this campaign in one form or another at different intervals during the last 50 years and especially during the last few years. Indeed some of us remember it in a different context 15 or 16 years ago when we had to deal with it and when we did not get the same practical support that it has been the good fortune of this Government to get from the present Opposition and from a united Parliament acting overtly and covertly in a united fashion on this problem.

We have seen a situation in which the political and social grievances that exist in the North of Ireland have been ignored by successive British Governments to a point where exasperation produced violence. While I do not want to take up the time of the House in making lengthy quotations from past speeches of British politicians the truth is that the violence, the illegal activities, the running of arms and the disregard of the democratic process started initially with the extreme Orangemen in the North. It was they who provoked the violence; it was they who started the gun-running activities and attempted to disregard the Parliament for which they profess to have sympathy, admiration and respect.

That on the one hand naturally generated violence on the other. Since the present Northern State was set up British Governments have repeatedly said that they must defeat violence and repression and that only when law and order has been restored will the grievances, which caused violence in the first place, be dealt with. This has proved in the past a futile policy. From time to time the repression or the action taken temporarily eliminates violence but the effect is merely to mask the symptoms not to cure the underlying problems because inevitably the original grievances continue and the violence breaks out again.

The recent episode was characterised by the introduction of partial internment or internment on a partial and selective basis and this has obviously not reduced the level of violence. Now the British Army has embarked on the lunatic enterprise of blowing up cross-Border roads. I do not know whether the British authorities believe the statements of their own informants or the statements made by British Ministers but Lord Windlesham, in the House of Lords, stated that cross-Border activity was an insignificant factor in the northern violence. If it is an insignificant factor surely it was foolhardy, to say the least of it, for the authorities in the North to launch out on a course of action which must have the effect ultimately of antagonising large numbers of people in the Border area, spreading the violence right across the North and endangering the lives and livelihoods of countless people, who are not involved and not concerned and whose only anxiety is to live their lives in peace and security. Anyone with the least knowledge of the country and of the geography of the Border must realise the futility of this exercise. Even the most remote bureaucrat, and there are certainly plenty of them apparently advising the British Government, or even those in the British Government remote from reality must realise that units can move easily across the country and the inconvenience caused by the blowing up of a few roads here and there affects the residents along the Border but does nothing to inconvenience those who want to get to a particular destination or to embark on a particular activity.

More than that, this sort of action enlists the sympathy, the active sympathy in some cases, of those who normally do not agree with the activities of these organisations. Their sympathy and their indignation is aroused by the inconvenience caused to themselves and to their neighbours. Indeed, this kind of ill-considered blunder is a more effective recruiting campaign for the illegal organisations than anything they can mount themselves. That is not to say that, no matter how much the ineptitude of the British Army and its leaders may arouse sympathy for those promoting violence in the North, we can accept in this State activities which are outside the law. This party has consistently stood absolutely and uncompromisingly for the principle of one army and one Garda force only in this country, one parliament and one government.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

There can be no justification at this stage in our history for any deviation from that principle. There must be no compromise with it. It is one of the characteristics of British politicians that they have never understood Ireland. They never will. Those of them who are enlightened, and they are scarce enough, have admitted that. When one reads the debates on Ireland in both the Commons and the Lords one realises that it is no wonder Britain lost her empire. If she knew as little about the rest of the world, so remote from her, as she knew about the island on her doorstep, it is no wonder she had to get out of everywhere. It is unbelievable that people, who profess adherence to the democratic system, as we know it, and who are its chief protagonists, could allow a situation to develop in the North completely at variance with democratic principles. It is to this particular aspect that we have got to devote our attention at the moment.

The Taoiseach made some reference to the Compton inquiry and the investigation that is taking place into the abuse of the process of the law by army and other security personnel and into the treatment to which detainees or those in transit from arrest to internment have been subjected. One of the serious deficiencies in statements emanating from Stormont is the fact that what we get is the half-truth. One can understand people under pressure, such as the Unionist politicians, refraining from telling the full facts. Numerous British press commentators have expressed the very serious concern felt in Britain about this situation. Yesterday The Times had a leading article on the matter. It referred to certain aspects of the allegations which had been made in the Sunday Times about the ill-treatment of internees. There were several very pertinent references. Among other things, the article said:

There is another general point about these extra legal practices. Even if they yield information which would otherwise not be procurable (which is not always the case), they are worse than useless if their employment outrages opinion in the public which broadly sympathises with the prisoners' cause, or affront opinion in the public which broadly supports defence of the State against armed conspiracy.

In the first case it is made almost impossible to win the minimal degree of consent or acquiescence from the disaffected part of the population, without which the political objective of pacification and settlement is unattainable.

In the second place it undermines the public will to see the matter through by creating doubt or shame concerning the conduct of operations, and eventually even sapping confidence in the value of the society which is asserting its right to defend itself. The words "Algeria" and "Vietnam" are sufficient to make the point.

As the Taoiseach said, the British Government in a notification to the Council of Europe repeated an earlier derogation from the Convention of Human Rights. The derogation was in specific terms. Under Article 15 it cited the existence of a public emergency in a part of the United Kingdom, namely, Northern Ireland and the bringing into operation there of certain emergency powers. But that derogation does not entitle the British Government or any agents of the British Government, military or civil, to subject people who are interned to treatment which is contrary to international justice. On this specific point I want to ascertain what precisely our Government have done in this regard. When this first came to our attention we raised the matter with a variety of international bodies. Our representatives directly contacted the Council of Europe and brought the matter to the notice of the Commission on Human Rights. We contacted directly the International Red Cross. We contacted directly Amnesty International and we contacted directly the International Commission of Jurists. These four bodies were notified that there was irrefutable evidence of brutality against people who had been arrested when internment was first introduced.

There was the medical evidence and there was the evidence which Members of this party saw for themselves when they met some of the people concerned and also when they discussed with medical people the injuries to some of those people. Since then the all-party delegation at the Council of Europe have raised this matter by way of a motion and Deputy Ryan has raised it at the Legal Committee. However, I do not consider that that is sufficient. There is an obligation on the Government to raise the matter with every Government that is a member of the Council of Europe and with every Government with which we have diplomatic relations. The Government have an obligation to bring the force of international public opinion to bear on these international organisations, whether these organisations be European organisations or the United Nations. The Government must direct attention to the gravity of the situation.

It is obvious from one reaction at the Legal Committee of the Council of Europe that the Government in Britain are concerned with the effect of publicity of this character because a deliberate effort was made to prevent the Committee being established and to postpone it. Another effort was made to prevent the Committee functioning by an endeavour to ensure that a quorum would not be available and that, consequently, the Committee could not be convened. This is an aspect of the matter which the diplomatic representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs in each member country should be instructed to bring officially before the Governments concerned. These Governments should be made aware of the attitude which has been adopted and of our concern at the manner in which the inquiry is being conducted.

The other aspect of this matter is that the Compton Inquiry is a private inquiry and is being held in secret. This is unsatisfactory. Also, it is contrary to the established principles of justice as we know them and of which British Governments and British Parliamentary Parties profess to be admirers. One is suspicious of the communique issued from the meeting which took place between Mr. Heath, Mr. Maudling, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Callaghan on this matter. The silence and the lack of information emanating from that meeting create the clear suspicion that the evidence that was already brought before the Committee is such that there is being made an obvious attempt to cloak the inquiry and to have it conducted in a manner in which the persons involved will not be represented properly.

In addition to this particular aspect of the matter we are entitled to ask from the Government what precise effort has been made to bring the forces of international opinion to bear on this matter. In the past we have taken the line at the United Nations which, I think, was the correct line in the circumstances that then existed, that the conditions in Northern Ireland and the problem of Partition was not one which would get a ready hearing at the United Nations. The United Nations is an international organisation and, generally, action is likely to be taken by them only when there is a threat to international security or when there is a risk of conflict in a particular area. However, that situation has changed dramatically in so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. The situation has altered to such an extent that, day after day, one of the first items on the news bulletins on radio, television or the Press in Europe and elsewhere is the situation in Northern Ireland. Delegates from this country to such organisations as the Council of Europe have found that the question of Northern Ireland is raised with them by politicians and representatives from each of the other countries taking part. We have an opportunity to influence world opinion. In this Britain should at least try to learn a lesson: this House and this country generally have behaved with unsurpassed restraint in the face of extraordinary provocation by British Governments and British politicians in this situation. It would be a mistake to think that people are not deeply concerned with the situation. Many people who were relatively passive about it and who were prepared to accept the difficulties in working towards the solution have been dismayed in some cases and angered in others at the manner in which Britain has dealt with this situation. There is no need to exaggerate the facts but this Government must ensure that other Governments are aware of them. There is no need to overplay the position because the facts speak for themselves. Unfortunately, in this whole question there is a certain uneasiness in this part of the country at the way in which the Government have conducted affairs and in particular the manner in which the security of the State has been endangered. Prior to the Recess the Taoiseach gave an undertaking to the House to consult with Deputy Corish and I on this problem. However, with the exception of one meeting, there has been no discussion of the problem during the past two years between the leaders of the three political parties. That is an extraordinary situation. I do not profess to understand it because so far as we are concerned we are not interested in making political capital out of this matter.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

We have never tried to make political capital out of the situation but we have never had any difficulty in getting any Member of this party to toe the line on our attitude. I do not profess to understand the ramifications of internal Fianna Fáil policies. I do not know whether Fianna Fáil Deputies themselves understand them fully but the fact remains that during the past few years and, in particular, during the past few months, there is increasing anxiety here at the threat to internal security. There have been numerous bank robberies and robberies at post offices, firms and other places where cash is held. I suppose that at any time when there are such happenings it is only natural that timorous people are alarmed. It is natural that some people may feel more concerned about it then others but when we read the statement made in a country or in a state that has now had just 50 years of self-government in which a responsible group of members of the Garda, meeting together, assert that criminals have been allowed to rob at will and in which at the same time they express their concern and dissatisfaction at the manner in which their grievances have been dealt with, then it is time not only for the public but for politicians to sit up and take notice.

We have said so so often that sometimes we feel it is the principal topic that is being discussed and the principal question that is being raised: it must be clearly emphasised and universally accepted that there can be in this country only one Army and one Garda force, that there can be only one Parliament. Let me say this: it is, of course, hard to expect logic on this particular problem in many respects and sometimes when you take up the paper you read statements by self-appointed commentators in which on the one hand they are looking for a united Ireland, for a single parliament and, on the other hand, they want a Dáil Uladh and a Dáil Chonnacht—they have not got to a Dáil Mumhan or a Dáil Laighean but I suppose that is on the way. There is nothing as daft as this. It is crazy and the nonsense of those involved in it should not really absorb our time or energies or interest but there are simple enough people to be bemused and befuddled by it and maybe attracted to it.

As far as we are concerned—and I want to make this quite clear—this party wants to see the Army of this country strong enough to protect the rights of all our people; we want to see the Garda force strong enough to protect the people's institutions and not to have the Garda in a position in which they are so distended in their activities and duty of other sorts that they are not in a position adequately to protect the institutions of the people. They are not our institutions in the sense that they are not the prerogative or the particular responsibility of a political party or a single government. They are the people's institutions. The people pay for them and the people are entitled to see that they are maintained and defended.

We have said many times that the Army should be strengthened. This will cost money. It will cost money to increase the Garda force. But, it is better to spend the money in that way to defend the institutions that have been won at considerable sacrifice rather than to have it spent in some other way after damage is done. It will cost money to increase the Army and to equip it properly but there is nothing worse than the present situation in which we have a nominal strength, a low strength in respect of the Army and a completely illusory strength in respect of the FCA. I do not think we should criticise members of the FCA who from time to time have been found incapable of discharging the duties imposed on them. It takes longer than part-time training at the week-ends or gathered together intermittently, very often without adequate instruction, very often in unsuitable premises and for a short period collected for temporary training, to train soldiers efficiently and effectively. Recruits are not normally put on guard duty and the bulk of the FCA are hardly given the training which recruits normally get or would have completed at the end of their period of training on recruitment. It is absolutely essential that we should have a full investigation of the strength necessary, estimated as minimal, to bring the Army up to a proper strength to safeguard our institutions and to protect the fabric of the State.

The same is true of the Garda. It is essential that the Garda grievances should be impartially and quickly investigated. I do not want at this stage to delve into the reasons for the lack of morale in respect of the Garda. A heavy responsibility lies on Fianna Fáil and those of them who think about it know how true what I am saying is. The Garda force should never have been the subject of political appointees in any respect. Admittedly, some short time ago, the then Minister for Justice in transit from that Department to somewhere else, said that it was the intention of the Government for the future to appoint the Commissioner from within the ranks. It should never have been otherwise. Promotion should be on a strictly impartial basis, only as the result of persons being appointed in recognition of their qualifications and disregarding any ties with Fianna Fáil or otherwise.

I do not propose to go further into this but I want to see that there is an end to this and a recognition that the Garda force is there and has served this country with distinction and with courage and that it has saved not merely the people but, on occasions, has saved the necks of Fianna Fáil Ministers. We want to see these grievances dealt with. We want to see matters like overtime properly remunerated and not merely by time off, an afternoon off in lieu of hours spent on duty at a crossroads or other bleak duty points after a local robbery of some significance has taken place. That is not the way to deal with the matter. That is not the way to deal with these problems.

It should be clearly understood by the Army and by the Garda that as far as this House and this country are concerned, the people recognise the services they have rendered, are grateful to them for the loyal service they have given to every government and to the State and are prepared to pay them and remunerate them for it and to see that they are adequately equipped to deal with whatever situation they have to deal with.

I want now to refer to the problem of finding a solution to the situation in Northern Ireland. It is impossible at this stage to imagine that the wrongs of 50 years can be righted overnight or in one debate or maybe in many but so far as this party is concerned we have never deviated from our view that the ultimate and the only permanent solution is a united Ireland. I want to repeat that. I want it to be understood in this Parliament and outside it that we have never deviated from that situation. We do not believe it can be achieved by violence, by repression, or by force used against one section or another of the Irish people. That view was accepted by the British Government who introduced the Government of Ireland Act. I want to refute the suggestions which have been made by British politicians of all parties in recent times, who say that if it is agreed to by the House of Commons in the North or by the people in Northern Ireland then it is acceptable to them. It was a British device which created Partition; it was British policy first in the plantations and subsequently in the Government of Ireland Act which established the northern Parliament; it was never accepted by the Irish people; it was regarded as an expedient at the time to deal with the particular situation. The Government of Ireland Act, 1920, said, and I quote:

With a view to the eventual establishment of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and to bringing about harmonious action between the parliaments and the governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to the promotion of mutual intercourse and uniformity in relation to matters affecting the whole of Ireland...

That quotation clearly recognises there would ultimately be a single parliament. I believe this must be accepted as a sine qua non in any approach to this problem. I believe the British should announce a timetable for the withdrawal of British forces from the North at some stage. We recognise— nobody but a fool would not—that if there was a precipitated withdrawal, bloodshed of a worse kind than has already been experienced there would result; but withdrawal must be done on the basis that a timetable is laid down and that certain consequential actions will follow.

It has been said on many occasions that if British financial aid were withdrawn this would create complications. We recognise that British financial aid would have to continue over a fixed period for the maintenance of certain services but from the British point of view the cost of such contributions would be substantially less than the present commitments in respect of the Army and security services in the North. So far as we are concerned direct rule from Westminster is not the answer; in fact, it is the reverse. It would be a step backwards. It would be a mistake for this country or any section of the community, North or South, to imagine that a temporary expedient would be a step towards an ultimate satisfactory settlement.

We have consistently argued that it is better for Irishmen to discuss these problems than to expect people from Britain to understand them. I still believe it ought to be possible for Irishmen of different political viewpoints to discuss these problems. This is an aspect of the matter that we should recognise. Indeed, today's Irish Times adverts to the fact that if the Border were ended we would still have the problem of working and living together irrespective of religious or other viewpoints. That certainly would not present a great problem to us because we have worked in this House with different people of diverse viewpoints and we have also worked with northern politicians both Unionist and non-Unionist. We have co-operated with the Unionists in Government in cross-Border projects of practical benefit. Some northern Unionists who support the existing régime at present may shortly learn that traditional British policy down the ages has been to placate her enemies and to abandon her friends. No matter what the professions of support are by their party gatherings in Britain or indeed in the House of Commons we believe that meaningful talks between Irishmen North and South, irrespective of their background, offer the best prospect of constructive action. I believe the majority of the people in the Six Counties, Catholic and Protestant, want to see a solution to the situation in which they can live and work together, in which equal rights are guaranteed, irrespective of religious or political views, in practice as well as on paper, no matter what the political consequences. So far as this country is concerned no party has played a more significant or determined part in ensuring that here than this party and we are prepared to play it in respect of the North as well as here.

There is no doubt that in the adjournment debate on the 5th and 6th August the northern situation was the main topic referred to by practically everyone who participated in that debate. It was believed at that time that the 14th August would be a critical date and certainly would have an effect on the North if the Apprentice Boys Parade were to be held; but, as it turned out, August 9th was the critical date with the introduction of internment. I should like the Taoiseach now to tell the House and the country why in such an event, after repeated calls from myself as leader of the Labour Party, and from other people, the Dáil was not recalled then?

We had a similar situation in August, 1969, when we could not have a special session of the Dáil because it was the holiday period. It did not make any difference whether bombs were being thrown or people being killed, Dáil Éireann was in recess and the elected representatives were denied an opportunity of expressing their views on the situation as it then was in August, 1969, and again on 9th August this year. Everybody recognised the impact of the introduction of internment without trial and the deep feeling there was amongst the Irish people.

I am also critical of the manner in which this debate has been named, so to speak. The motion before the House today which will be put tomorrow is "that the Dáil do now adjourn until 27th October". I wonder what the Taoiseach's motive is in deciding to recall the Dáil during what is described as the "recess", but still only a week away from the regular session, which will commence next Wednesday. I am not surprised the Dáil was not recalled because it is not the first time the Taoiseach and his Government have shown utter disregard for this House and for the Members of it.

I also remember hearing and I subsequently read the last few sentences of the Taoiseach's reply to that debate. On the last page of the Official Report of the 6th August the Taoiseach is quoted as saying: "Deputies can go without fear of a general election"— I wonder now if that is still the situation—"and come back on 27th October. In the meantime they can be perfectly assured, as I said last year, that the country is in the very best of hands". Does anybody, apart from some of the Fianna Fáil softliners, believe that this country is in the very best of hands? Not only have we gone through and are still going through the Northern crisis but we have other crises as well upon which the Government do not appear to be placing any importance. We have the redundancy crisis; we have the prices crisis; we have the crisis of unemployment, the crisis of factory closures and the lack of urgency in dealing with the effects of the entry of this country into the European Economic Community. However, we all agreed that the Northern crisis is the most serious, not in the lifetime of this Dáil but since the State was established 50 or more years ago. But that is no excuse for the apparent apathy of Ministers in the face of the terrible social and economic problems I have just mentioned.

Frankly, I did not know what to make of the Taoiseach's speech today. I believed there would be an effort today by all Members and parties in the House to arrive at some attitude towards the North rather than to score petty points off the Tory Party in Britain or the Labour Party or Stormont. I was surprised that the Taoiseach took 45 minutes before he came round to using such a phrase as: "We should be building bridges between this part of the country and the North". I thought we would have a much more constructive contribution by the Taoiseach in this awful crisis in which the people in the North find themselves and in which we in the South also find ourselves.

At this special session of the Dáil we are not being asked to give any specific approval or otherwise to the Government's proposals on the Northern question. The question before the House is: "That the Dáil do now adjourn". Even though this is a nebulous motion, representatives elected to the Dáil by the votes of the people under a system of proportional representation, which the Government tried to abolish, elected democratically, have not only the duty to comment, but also to give a lead to those who elected them, on what our attitude and our policy should be. There is quite an amount of woolly thinking in the South in regard to the northern crisis. Whether we are Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour we cannot stand idly by—to use a well-known phrase— and be pushed into a situation which could virtually mean the breakdown of the institutions of democracy in this part of the country, may I say, because many people believe that the "troubles" can be confined to just one part of the country. I believe the responsibility falls on all public representatives to make up their minds whether or not they want unity by a political or a military solution. This is still, as it has been over the past two years, the central issue. As far as my Party are concerned we are quite clear about where we stand. We oppose the military solution. But there are people who are like Tadhg an dhá Thaobh who are prepared to dip their feet in the water but not to take the plunge when violence or the use of arms is mentioned.

Since the introduction of internment without trial the northern situation has deteriorated with an escalation on both sides. I have no doubt that if it further worsens, inevitably it will affect public order in this part of the country also. Those who by their silence or tacit approval, or by their nods or winks to those who use force in the North are merely inviting their own destruction as democratic representatives. I know how deep national sentiment runs in the country: we all certainly have an appreciation of that. Those of us in contact with the ordinary people in our own constituencies know this and we know it was certainly affected by the introduction of internment without trial and the policy that accompanied and still accompanies it.

But what has brought us back here belatedly, as I said before, to discuss the northern crisis and to discuss, I suppose, in particular one single act, the introduction of internment without trial, an event which has drastically changed the situation in the northern part of the country? We wonder why the British Government and Stormont have done this. We wonder and are entitled to ask whether the British Government are now determined to rely on a military solution for that particular problem. If this is not the case, the British Government have the responsibility of spelling it out. The British Government, by permitting and supporting internment without trial, appear to be prepared to support the Unionist regime at all costs. That is how it is seen by the minority in the North, whatever the views of the minority might be on the use of violence. The situation now is that there is a complete alienation of the two communities. This is demonstrated by the withdrawal of the Social Democratic and Labour Party from Stormont and the introduction of the civil disobedience campaign.

I think this has to be said: the situation has not been helped by men of violence on the minority side. The British Government have made blunders. They made blunders in the recent past; they made them 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago; they blundered when they planted Ulster; but they have not helped by doing certain things they have done in conjunction with the Stormont regime: the introduction of internment without trial, the blowing up of roads, which in my view will not affect the situation if they think that by doing that people will not cross from one side of the Border to the other. The continuation of arrests certainly has not helped the situation. Neither have their selective arms searches and the allegations now of torture and brutality mentioned by the Taoiseach in connection with those who are detained or interned. Certainly British Governments, and particularly British Tory Governments, never seem to learn. They have tended to give support to those who would use violent means and to those who would engage in tossing bombs into various places. They have given a certain amount of support to them by the introduction of the measures which I have just mentioned. I should like to take up Deputy Cosgrave on a point he mentioned. Deputy Cosgrave said something to the effect that there was no difference between a Socialist Government and a Tory Government. In August, 1969, we, as a Labour Party from this country, approached the British Government and we can claim credit for certain things which were done very quickly following a meeting between a deputation from our party and the British Government.

I have said that there have been blunders made by the British Government. These blunders have tended to gain a certain amount of sympathy for the IRA. On the other hand, violence by the IRA has given support to Mr. Paisley's recruiting campaign. We talk about violence and give tacit approval to it or fail to condemn it. Surely representatives of this House cannot stay silent when they read about a bomb attack on an Electricity Board office during working hours where dozens of lives were at risk, nor can they stay silent when there is a bomb attack on a publichouse in the Shankill Road. It is all very well for us to be Republicans—and Republicans of the old tradition—when we are far away from the Border. The further one gets away from the Border the more he may express Republican sentiments, particularly when speaking in a publichouse. We have too many people in the South who do not know the first thing about the North or of the stresses and strains on the working-class people, particularly in areas like Belfast and Derry. Does one applaud when there is assassination of a member of the British Army by single shots and this goes under the name of self-defence? All these acts of violence breed further acts of violence. This has been shown particularly in the last few months. There have been reprisals and retaliation. As long as violence continues in any form by one side or the other it will breed more and more violence and will push the cause of Irish unity back for years and years, further than any of us would wish. Violence has led to a widening of the gap between the two communities. All these incidents have changed the situation and have made it completely different from what it was when it was triggered off by the introduction of internment without trial.

One is forced to the conclusion that what would have satisfied the minority in terms of reform in October, 1968, will not now go one-tenth of the way towards satisfying them now. Apart from internment, other factors affect the situation and have altered the original objectives and course of the Civil Rights campaign, inaugurated by the Civil Rights Association and led, supported, directed and guided by people like Gerry Fitt, John Hume and Ivan Cooper, to name but a few who were and still are prominent. The situation has changed because certain factors have changed it. The speed of reform was slow. This was misunderstood by the minority and this misunderstanding led to frustration. Let us face it also that the situation was changed with the appearance of the IRA and their involvement with the British Army. There was also the change of attitude of the British Army with the change of the government in Britain. The British Army are now regarded by the minority as agents of Stormont and not regarded, as they were when they came first, as a neutral force who were there to try to ensure that there would be some semblance of law and order in the North.

I want to describe again what is, in fact, the nature of the problem. It is all very well to talk about propaganda. It is all very well to talk about seeking the support of various other nations of the world, but we have got to try to see what the problem itself is within Northern Ireland. We must try to realise that there are two distinct communities in the separated part of Ireland with two different political objectives. There are the Unionists, who want to be part of the United Kingdom, and there are the Nationalists, who want to be part of the Irish Republic. The Unionists have been in the majority and have had their way for 50 years. They cannot deny that they have manipulated power for their own ends and for their sectarian supporters during all that period. The situation has been represented here as a clash between Protestants and Catholics. That may be a description, but it so happens that the majority are Protestants and the minority are Catholics. The important thing is that these two communities have two different political aspirations. It is only by reconciling these communities that we can bring real peace to that part of the country.

For over 50 years, as was mentioned by the Taoiseach, there was total domination of the area by a Government that has conducted affairs over that period to the exclusion of the minority. It is readily admitted now, whether the Government be Tory or Socialist in Great Britain, that there has been discrimination in jobs, housing, voting rights and in various other things. Violence has been used in the past in order that the minority would try to break out of that situation and violence has also been used to maintain it.

In 1968-9 peaceful demonstration was employed in a demand for civil rights. The Civil Rights Association at that time had widespread support and respect. It seemed that they would be successful and because the Unionists believed at that time that there was a threat to their grip on public affairs in the northern part of the country, they reacted. Unionist extremists—and I stress "extremists"—attacked Catholic areas. There was a natural and quick reaction in the southern part of the country, and in other countries as well.

We then had the involvement of the British Army. In August and September of 1969 they were welcome, as they were intended to be, as protection against the attacks of Unionist extremists. They were welcome for a while, but then there was a change. At that time, it was a change from friendliness to hostility, and some people must take the blame for that. Shortly afterwards we had the introduction of the IRA. I want to place on record the core of our policy on the North. We have not changed it, may I say. In August, 1969, the Labour Party declared that force must be ruled out in seeking a solution to the Northern question. This, we believe, was the declared aim not only of the Labour Party but of the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Parties as well.

Where we differ in some respects is on the method or the means or the attitude whereby we can achieve national unity. My party and I believe that territorial unity alone is not real unity. There must be unity of peoples. If we believe there must be unity of peoples, this must be based on consent.

Hear, hear.

If we believe in this, can we have a unity which is imposed on one section of the North against their will? There are some people who believe that unity will come automatically as soon as the British Army withdraw from the North. These are people who will not bother or who do not want to ask the question: what would be the outcome if the British Army were withdrawn from the North? We can all have our views on what the outcome of such a withdrawal would be. We can all speculate as to what would happen between Protestants and Catholics because we had a very shattering example of this when the British Army were not employed in the North in August, 1969: houses were burned, people were killed and people were maimed. We have to ask ourselves also what would the situation be if Partition were ended by an Act of the British Parliament tomorrow morning. Even in that event there would still be a million Protestants who would resort to arms in order to resist inclusion in one State.

Not all of them, surely.

Not all Catholics want to come in either.

I have not got the precise figure available to me but I would say roughly a million. It may be a million and one.

The Deputy said a million would resort to arms. Some of them probably would. I am not questioning——

When we talk about the Irish nation so far as defence or anything like that is concerned, we just mention the number in the Army and not the whole population.

I did not intend to make an issue of it.

Do not drive me off my line. Even if the British Army were to withdraw from the North tomorrow, or if by an Act of Parliament the Westminster Government did away with the Border, we would still have the same problem. That is the point I am trying to make. The Taoiseach appreciates as well as I do that there are a number of people—not all of them— who would engage in arms and that there are people who would resent being included in another State against their will.

I made that point.

There is no point in our going back to the 17th or 18th century, or blaming the Ulster Plantation, or anything like that. We condemn violence by extremists no matter what side they are on. I know that it is very hard to suppress them. There are deep feelings when atrocities are perpetrated. For example, when the British Army kill or maim one of the minority there is resentment and there is verbal and oral support, in the main, for what is described as defensive action or retaliation by the IRA. There is the same feeling when bombs or gelignite are used to kill or maim British soldiers or civilians belonging to the majority.

I think we agree that we condemn internment without trial and its one-sided application. I do not want to interfere in what the Taoiseach said to Mr. Heath and Mr. Faulkner but I wonder what they said to him when he made, as I am sure he did, a protest in Chequers against internment without trial. I suppose he had a legitimate protest if he described it as one-sided but about December of last year we had some flimsy tale from the Minister for Justice that he was going to be kidnapped and the Taoiseach intimated that he might consider the introduction of internment. Remember, it was not just internment under the Offences against the State Act; it was also internment without trial. Therefore, I do not think the Taoiseach was the best person to talk on that topic to Mr. Faulkner and to Mr. Heath.

If he suggested, as I am sure he did, that the electoral system should be the proportional representation system I am sure that was not received too well either by Mr. Faulkner and Mr. Heath because, as I said before, on two occasions in the past ten or 15 years the Fianna Fáil Government not only tried to abolish proportional representation but also tried to rearrange—and in some cases succeeded—the constituencies to suit the fortunes of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Look at North County Dublin.

We all condemn internment without trial—or at least that is what party spokesmen have said here. We also condemn one-sided arms searches. What disturbs me in this whole situation is that there is sometimes qualified and sometimes outright support for either section of the IRA. There is also resentment against those who condemn the activities of both wings of the IRA on the basis of the long-lived national sentiment of the Irish people, or the effect of such condemnation on the future electoral fortunes of, in this case, the Fianna Fáil Party.

There is also a vague belief that out of violence will come the unity of Ireland in a short time. They may be much more sensible in the North on this point but there are people down here who believe that through violence will come the unity of our country. The best evidence against this comes from people who are there on the spot. Gerry Fitt does not believe that violence will bring about the unity of this country. Ivan Cooper does not believe it. I remember reading a speech he made about two months ago at the Irish Club, I think. According to the Irish Times he said: “My ultimate wish is to see a 32 County socialist republic but this is not, however, an immediate objective.” Therefore, anybody who believes that violence will bring instant unity must think again, and think very deeply about the situation as it exists in the North at present.

In regard to the IRA, people might believe that either by their silence and tacit approval they should get support for their party, but in my view that sort of support would be very short-term. What we all should be concerned about is not short-term politics in the way of electoral results in the next election or the election after that. The unity of this country will be a long, hard haul and I do not think any party should try to make political capital out of it. When we give tacit approval to violence by our silence we should try to realise what it means in terms of human life and human suffering and also what it means in terms of what we all want, the unity of Ireland. I believe that violence and its escalation, as it has escalated in the last month, does nothing for the unity of this country but rather pushes it further and further away.

If all parties in this House say their policy is a policy of non-violence, then all of us should say so without any qualification whatsoever; and if there is a qualification on the part of any Member of this House, I think it is his duty not alone to define it but to defend it as well. Leaders in the North have stressed the imminence of civil war in a certain situation, and again it is for people down here, particularly the public representatives, to try to visualise what the outcome will be. We cannot say it would result in unity. Can we say it would be the ending of Partition, that there would be direct rule from Westminister or a UDI situation? All we know is that in the event of a civil war many people would die. Any of us in this House who have read anything about civil war and those who know something about it know that as far as civil war is concerned many people died and died in vain and the civil war achieved nothing whatsoever.

Neither can we discount, as many people do, the Protestant backlash. I cannot say how many guns might be available to what is described as the majority or the Protestants, but the backlash should not be at all discounted if proposals such as the withdrawal of the British Army were implemented. Many people would die in that situation, and unfortunately many people in the North would die.

I have mentioned these things so that the Dáil and the people will understand our approach to this crisis, and so that the Taoiseach will have some appreciation of what we suggest. We asked for and we supported the tripartite talks. We did this not from a narrow party point of view. No matter what the Taoiseach might say against the Labour Party—and he has criticised them very many times for various reasons—I do not think he can say we have in the last two years tried to make political capital out of the situation that obtained in the North during that period. As I said, we asked for these talks not from a narrow party point of view but because we believed this is what the nation required. We knew this would be misinterpreted but we believed it was the right thing to do. One of the suggestions we made before these tripartite talks was that the minority should be involved, and I think the Taoiseach advocated this as well. Deputy Cosgrave said in the course of his speech that such problems can best be solved by Irishmen. There are no better people to represent the minority than those in the SDLP and those other people of the minority who were elected to Stormont.

I warned in the debate on 5th August—or maybe in a subsequent speech; I think it was after the Dáil adjourned—that we should not expect too much, because there was a peculiar sort of trio at the Chequers talks. We had Mr. Heath who certainly appeared to be unconcerned about the events up there and not necessarily talking about his trip in the Morning Cloud around the southern coast of Ireland. He is a stubborn man. I do not want to interfere in British politics but he displays this stubborness in various crises, for example, the crises in the Upper Clyde Shipyards, in his attitude to the EEC, and what appears now to be support for a military rather than a political solution in the North. We had Mr. Faulkner who certainly is a prisoner of his party and is influenced by, if not also a prisoner of, the Orange Lodges.

We also had the Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, who has his internal difficulties. I do not want to develop this too much but I am afraid the Taoiseach's internal problems are influencing his public pronouncements as far as the North is concerned and many of them are not very helpful. As I said, we had Chequers. Whether there will be a follow up to Chequers I do not know.

Would the Deputy indicate what were these public pronouncements and in what way they have been harmful?

There was very little the Taoiseach said today that was helpful to the awful situation in the Six Counties. It took the Taoiseach 45 minutes to get around to anything constructive and even that was very short. He merely talked about building bridges. Practically everything the Taoiseach said may have been factual. I do not deny, but I do not know, that there were so many British soldiers on this side of the Border, but nothing practical is being done by the Fianna Fáil Government in order to induce people to come together, because it will not be a Lynch or a Faulkner or a Heath who will unite the people of the six north eastern counties of this country; it is the people themselves. Nothing has been done over the last two years or since the late Seán Lemass initiated these trips across the Border in order to bring people together. It is the easiest thing in the world to bring politicians together, whether it be Gromykos or Khruschevs or John F. Kennedys. It is the easiest thing in the world to bring bankers or industrialists together. The difficult thing—and this is the task the Labour Party have undertaken—is to try and bring people together. Those of us who are members of the trade union movement have done our part in this, not alone in our visits to the North but in discussing within the Irish Congress of Trade Unions the awful problem existing there by our contact with the British Labour Party and by our contact with the British Trade Union Congress. These are all practical things. I am not saying that we can solve all these problems but as a minority party, as a party of 17, I would say we have done infinitely better, as far as relationships are concerned, than ever Fianna Fáil have done for many years.

May I also say, with due respect to the two arms of the IRA and the two wings of Sinn Féin and those who support them, that my lifelong aspiration since I came to the use of reason has been a 32 county socialist Republic but based on the democratic means of achieving it. These are the aspirations of my party, these are aspirations that are unchanged and unchanging. However, if I accept, as I do, that unity can only come by consent, then I must further accept that the way to unity is not through confrontation but through co-operation, not through alienation but through participation.

The two basic principles on which I agreed with the leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party on 24th August are still valid and provide, in our view, the only sure foundation for real unity. I want to repeat those two principles for the record of this House. No. 1, the sectarian Unionist regime in the North must be ended as a first priority. The sectarian manipulation of power on which that regime is based must cease. No. 2, the minority in Northern Ireland must be given a share in power proportionate to their numbers, at all levels of administration in the North of Ireland. Mr. Faulkner has talked a lot about what he offered to the representatives of the minority. I do not believe that that sort of participation is what the SDLP want, what the SDLP need, what the North needs. These were throwaway jobs, jobs or positions of responsibility, small things, and I think they were perfectly right in rejecting them. What is needed is full participation in proportion to their numbers. Let me add a third principle. The SDLP should be allowed to speak for themselves. They live and work in the North. They know the situation. They will have to work out the solution such as I have outlined in the first two principles. Let nobody pretend that the SDLP cannot talk for themselves because they have borne all this over a long period, they know their own people and they are the representatives who are best equipped to talk for those who elected them. I said this on 5th August and it is still my view. They should be allowed to speak in discussions. It is a "must" that they should be allowed to participate in any discussions with the Unionists. I have said before that Chequers was incomplete in that the SDLP were not present.

Since it was decided to recall this Dáil there has been another development—the allegations of brutality. I would urge on the Taoiseach, if he is still in contact with the British Government and Stormont, that these allegations must be cleared up by an inquiry, not a hole-in-the-corner inquiry but a judicial inquiry with proper procedure of presentation of evidence and cross-examination, a full and open inquiry. We do not take these allegations lightly and I believe they must be cleared and cleared as soon as possible because there is grave disquiet in this part of the country about the allegations that have been made. In saying this I realise that in the present charged atmosphere allegations build allegations and also create counter allegations.

I do not know whether the Taoiseach in his reply would care to comment on what has been described as his second guarantor speech. It looks a little ridiculous now. It raised the hopes of the minority on that particular occasion and, on the other hand, it heightened the fears of the majority. I do not say this with any venom, but unwittingly he may have contributed to creating a situation in which these allegations can be made and be believed by a large section of the community.

I do not think anybody was too impressed by what the Taoiseach said today. I think he approached the problem in the wrong spirit and I would commend to the Taoiseach, if he has not already done so, that he should read, for example, the speech that was delivered by Gerry Fitt, MP, in the House of Commons on 23rd September. I do not want to quote the whole speech but I would commend this section to him and ask that he should think about it when next he speaks on the northern problem. On 23rd September, Gerry Fitt said:

We want an involvement that is active, permanent and guaranteed, written into the Constitution of Northern Ireland. We say that the 1920 Act is no longer sacrosanct; that there must be a sharing of power; that that section of the community which has been so cruelly excluded from all forms of participation over the past 50 years must be brought in to take some part in the administration of the community in which they live. Given those circumstances, we will co-operate with the majority.

We recognise that the majority population in Northern Ireland, which is a minority in the island of Ireland as a whole, has its aspirations, which are orientated towards remaining part of the United Kingdom. I can quite understand that, though I disagree. I believe that its future is completely linked with a United Ireland. At present we are not arguing about that. I realise that one cannot shoot or bomb 1,000,000 Protestant people into a Republic of Ireland tommorrow.

I should like to repeat the last two sentences.

At present we are not arguing about that. I realise that one cannot shoot or bomb 1,000,000 Protestant people into a Republic of Ireland tomorrow.

He goes on:

I would not attempt to do so, because what sort of an Ireland would it be? What sort of an Ireland would it be if the gunmen were successful in bringing about the abolition of the Border overnight? The problem we have had for 50 years, when we have been humiliated and coerced, would be transferred to another section of the population in Northern Ireland. As a Socialist, I certainly would never subscribe to that happening to any human being or any political philosophy.

There must be a natural evolution. May I say, in conclusion, that they are my sentiments as well.

I must disagree with the last speaker who said that he could not understand what the Taoiseach's speech was about. I thought the Taoiseach made a reasoned speech, a statement which covered the sequence of events since the latest trouble broke out in the North and gave a very fair and honest account of the different actions taken by him and by the Government.

Much has been said about what the Taoiseach is doing and what he is not doing and what he is likely to do. The Taoiseach is the head of the Government and the Government have collective responsibility. Those of us who are members of the Government have just as much to say in discussing the trend of events from day to day as has the Taoiseach and are as much to be blamed for any mistakes he might make or credited with any successes he may have. The Irish Times may say we are a deplorably hopeless lot. That is one man's opinion, my opinion might be quite different but, whether we are or not, I think we know our Six County problem as well as anybody in this House and we are conscious of the political snooker that is being played over it at the present time with people trying to score off others in a situation that is much too serious to be treated in that way. I am certain that the two speeches we have heard contained that element of political up-staging which is not relevant to a debate at a time like this.

May I ask the Minister which two speeches he is referring to?

The last two speeches. I know every party has a duty to look after its own interests but if there is one thing we should avoid it is not to succumb to the temptation of political kudos in such a serious situation. It is no good Deputy Cruise-O'Brien having a hollow laugh——

I am laughing at the Minister's hypocrisy.

I thought the Minister was talking about Deputy Lynch's speech.

I have watched the the behaviour of all parties since this business began. Usually I do not say much but I am conscious of what goes on. One cannot help seeing some of the futile things that are done overtly in the interests of bringing about a solution of the troubles and problems of the North which are actively and directly associated with party interests. I do not wish to labour that point——

The Minister was not very clear. What does he mean?

I do not wish to labour the point but it is relevant despite the fact that people here pretend not to understand. One thing the Government tried to do—I do not care whether they are accused of having failed to do it—was not to do anything merely for the purpose of their political advantage. Instead, they tried to do what will be seen ultimately to be the right thing. Time will prove this.

Today we heard in this House a recitation of all the evils of Partition. This is axiomatic so far as Members of this House are concerned and we do not want to hear it repeated. We know that everything that has happened in the last two years has proved that the British have not learned anything since the time of Cromwell, whether it be internment or the cratering of roads. This is patently obvious and hardly necessitates repetition in the Dáil.

What are the Government doing? This is a question asked not only in this House today but it is asked by people one meets on the roads—particularly by people who have ulterior motives. When the SDLP people were in Dublin on one occasion they discussed the same point. Nobody knows better than they that in a day-to-day situation it is difficult to know the right thing to do. We all have our fixed policies about non-violence, co-operation and, in the short-term, about the de-escalation of the violence that is taking place at the present time.

I agree that everyone in this House has one objective, namely, the reunification of the country as a Republic. If some people choose to call it a socialist Republic, that is a matter for themselves. I do not like when people say "It will not happen in our time" because I do not believe this helps the situation. It is inevitable that the time must come—perhaps rather more quickly than most people expect— when the present situation must change drastically and come a step nearer to unification.

I know some people prefer the policy of both sides standing back with no communication, saying "Not an inch". There must be some flexibility and we must move towards a solution. I think the "not an inch" attitude was changed when Seán Lemass went to meet the Northern Ireland Prime Minister and I think we were nearer unification in the years immediately after that than ever before. At that time we had a greater unification of hearts, minds and spirits—which is real unity —and the physical boundary could have been a simple matter to resolve afterwards. However, it was obvious that the right-wing of the Unionist organisation were not prepared to accept that movement towards reunification. There was the organised right-wing Unionist element led by the Rev. Ian Paisley, who went out to throw snowballs at the Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, when he went to meet Premier O'Neill. These people demonstrated they were not prepared to accept reforms.

Those of us who live in Ulster, those of us who are in the Six Counties several times a week, know well that the perpetuation of the Six County Government is dependent on keeping hatred and bigotry stirred up to an increasing extent. The right-wing element there know that if the Downing Street Declaration were implemented in spirit, not in the perfunctory way that was attempted, if reforms were introduced, bigotry would subside and with it would go the Unionist Government. Reforms might well undermine them more quickly than bullets or bombs and that is why a right-wing revolt manifested itself at a time when there was evidence of a liberal movement in the Unionist junta. We were moving rapidly in the right direction at that time.

It is all right to sit back here and say that it will be a long haul and that co-operation is the only thing. It is difficult to have co-operation when 40 per cent of our own people are not getting civil rights in that area. We have a duty to ensure that they get these rights and we have always shown our willingness in this regard. Both Opposition speakers gave their solutions, which are little different from our own. However, Deputy Cosgrave said that direct rule would be a backward step and he indicated that negotiations with the northern authorities would be the proper means of bringing about co-operation—at least that is my understanding of what the Deputy said. These are not very serious statements but they have implications with which I do not agree fully.

I do not think direct rule would be a backward step. Rather would it be an admission that the present system has failed and it would put us back in the position of starting to negotiate again where we failed in the Treaty. I think it would be an important step——

Would the Minister please explain that statement.

Unlike Deputy Cosgrave, I would not consider direct rule at this point to be a retrograde step. I repeat that I would consider it an admission that the present set-up has failed and would place us in a position of starting to negotiate for reunification and leave us in a position of taking on where the Treaty negotiations failed.

What would it solve?

It would be the first step towards negotiating reunification.

I asked what would it solve?

The Minister, without interruption.

It would solve what we are trying to solve.

Would it change attitudes?

The Minister, without interruptions.

It is a very interesting point.

It is a very important point.

The Government now want direct rule from Westminster for Northern Ireland.

I said I did not like Deputy Cosgrave saying it was a backward step. In the same way I challenge the Deputy to say that he would not like to see direct rule coming about. We have learned a lot in the last 50 years. Deputy Cosgrave said that there were many mistakes made in the last 50 years. There might have been mistakes. Partition was a mistake in the first instance. There was a civil war fought over it which, as Deputy Cosgrave said, achieved nothing. It is the last thing we want to bring up here. We are here to discuss how to get rid of it, not how it came about. If we have made mistakes in the last 50 years we should be ready to learn by those mistakes now. I have said one thing frequently. My knowledge of Irish history is that on every occasion on which something was within our grasp we seemed to lose it through lack of unity within ourselves.

Hence the civil war.

When you look around you today in this country and you see ostentatious republicanism, anti-republicanism, social republicanism, two facets of Sinn Féin, a couple of IRAs——

Two Fianna Fáils.

Three Fianna Fáils.

Let the Deputies not worry about Fianna Fáil. They are worrying much more about it than about the North.

Could we have a quorum? We have two Fianna Fáils. Could we have the one here?

It is the first time we have heard the Minister speak on the North since 1969.

It is not the first time. We should have less talk and more action.

The Minister should have told that to the Taoiseach before he recalled the Dáil. The Minister should get him to talk less.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

If I may take some of the interruptions as the theme of my continued speech, the Deputy said that I should get the Taoiseach to talk less. I think the Taoiseach only talks when it is necessary. I do not want to get back on this party political theme again but I believe all the Deputies over there are hoping for is that they take one wrong step.

That is very unfair of the Minister.

Let us develop the debate.

Deputy Desmond said that I have not spoken on Partition in this House since 1969. I live, like Deputy Harte, almost in the midst of Partition and I perhaps know more about the effects of it than most people. I know how much the Orange card is played in the North. I know how much they try to whip up sectarianism and I also know, in relation to the Taoiseach's interruption to Deputy Corish, when he said that one million Protestants would be out to fight if the British withdrew, that the great majority of the Protestant people are good citizens. They are as good as they are here. They are understandable and easy to live with. It is the minority of the majority from which the real trouble springs. If we could get everybody in this House to better know and understand how these people get on together we could better appreciate what the position is up there.

I know everyone has given a recitation of all the things that are wrong, such as the cratering of the roads leading across the Border which to my mind is the most stupid thing that could be done. It has tended only to provoke and aggravate a serious situation and certainly to alienate people who would ordinarily be otherwise concerned at the trouble going on there at the present time. I believe that the efforts at communication initiated by Seán Lemass in his time and later by Deputy Jack Lynch as Taoiseach, had brought about that measure of unity of heart and spirit which is a necessary prerequisite to the abolition of Partition.

The Minister is talking about his own party.

I do not think anybody can fail to be sympathetic with the 40 per cent of our people who do not get justice in that area. It may be very easy to talk about co-operating in matters of commerce and so forth; but that we should go on co-operating and at the same time ignore the injustices under which these people are compelled to live and are subjected to in the perpetuation of Unionist rule would be, I think, a serious mistake. We have a serious obligation to these people.

We have to expose to the world what the situation is now and we have to find a quicker solution than some Deputies might expect. We may not get a complete 32-county unification of Ireland as a republic in the morning, but we certainly must move a step closer to it. I do not have to spell out some of the things which would be a definite step in that direction.

We have right and justice on our side. There is nobody in any political international court who would justify the existence of the present set-up in Northern Ireland. Anything we can do to bring that situation about should be done. The first prerequisite is unity within our own ranks. The day when we achieve a 32-County Republic will be the day on which we will be in a position to resolve our own internal squabbles about our own political situation. If the evolution is as I hope it will be the question as to who will get the credit will be of little importance.

We have had the problem and the wrong of Partition with us for the past 50 years but this is the first time on which Dáil Éireann has been recalled especially to discuss Partition and the North of Ireland. Listening to the Taoiseach today and to the Minister for Social Welfare, I cannot help feeling that there is a tremendous, in-built complacency in all of us in relation to Partition. It has been with us now for 50 years. Throughout that 50 years in this Dáil, under successive Governments, Partition was never a problem to be studied in depth in order to find a solution. It was, of course, a sounding fork for sanctimonious speeches about the outstanding national wrong and for efforts at pseudo-patriotism so often witnessed in this House. Whenever there was a difficult internal situation it was useful to refer to the problem of the division of Ireland. Up in the North the hungry sheep looked on and were not fed.

I have a strong feeling that there has been in this House for the last 50 years unparalleled hypocrisy in relation to the division of our country. We are now in 1971. Only five years ago in the Presidential Election it was stated on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, with all its eloquence, all its personalities, all its vehemence, that the object and purpose of Fianna Fáil was to achieve an Ireland, not only united and free, but Gaelic-speaking as well.

(Interruptions.)

The leader of Fianna Fáil in the last general election repeated Pádraig Pearse's sentiments, which may have been relevant in 1916 but were, I suggest, utterly irrelevant in the Ireland of 1965, except that those who used that phrase were prepared to deny any rights to Irishmen living in the North who did not subscribe to the tradition and culture shared by the majority of those living on this island. That was the kind of thinking abroad in our Republic only four or five years ago. Did it not indicate that those who spoke like that were not prepared to give any consideration to the problems that would arise for our country once Partition was ended, once recognition came about and once we had living in our midst a large minority of 1,000,000 Protestant Irishmen? Were we going to force them to accept the language policy, the policy that had been in operation at that stage for 45 years in this part of Ireland? Were we going to force them to accept others of our laws, whether they liked them or not? If that was the mentality and that was the feeling then, it was clearly indicative of the fact that no thinking had been done as to ways and means of ending division.

The truth is—I say this with regret —that up to recently, and recently is up to two years ago, there were in the Fianna Fáil Party those who felt sincerely that the division of Ireland could only be ended by the means by which it was being maintained, by force of arms, and that is why there was a repetition of Pádraig Pearse's statement away back in 1916 to usher in the Presidential Election in 1966: the aim was to achieve an Ireland, not only free and united, but Gaelic-speaking as well.

(Interruptions.)

I am talking about the repetition of Pádraig Pearse's words by Fianna Fáil. The result of this total lack of real concern with the problem in the North was a very real and tragic isolation between those in the Six Counties and those here in the rest of Ireland. The Minister for Social Welfare is entitled to his views on history. I have never before and I do not intend now to go back into the past, but to hear it stated today that the civil war was fought over Partition is surely to hear a most extraordinary statement. The fact is that it was the civil war that made Partition as permanent as it has been. It was also, of course, our indifference and I blame all sides in this House for that indiffence. In the years since we have not been prepared to study the problem. We have not worked out the basis on which we could get Protestant Irishmen living in part of Ulster to appreciate that they with us share a common responsibility for the future of this island. We never attempted to do these things. All the statements made here time and time again were designed further to alienate and isolate those who did not share the views of the majority.

Partition continued. It used be referred to as a matter of obligation in the St. Patrick's Day address to the Irish people at home and abroad. It used to grace a line or two in the introductory remarks of the Minister for External Affairs, as he was known then, in introducing his Estimates and of course from time to time at final rallies of the different political parties in general election campaigns. However, that was all it meant. Today this House is meeting because of the deepening tragedy of the North. We must approach what is involved not in any sense of complacency but realising that much of what has occurred during the past two years might well have been averted or avoided had we displayed in years gone by the concern which we should have displayed. There is a deepening tragedy and this is unfolding at this moment in that part of our island.

Let us think for a moment with concern for the ordinary people in the Six Counties, the ordinary, decent, lawabiding Protestant who has no wish for violence or warfare or for any of these other difficulties that have arisen but who wishes merely to continue living as a man of peace. Let us be concerned, too, for the decent Catholic families and for all those who have suffered and for those whose lives and means of livelihood have been shattered and endangered. All of these are the unfortunate little people who do not concern anyone on either side who is extreme. There are thousands of these little people. When we think of them it is only right that we pay a very sincere tribute to the various leaders of the minority in the Six Counties. These people in particular have had a very difficult role during the past two years. Some of them, such as John Hume and Ivan Cooper, came into politics because of their deep involvement in the Civil Rights movements of two or three years ago. They believe sincerely in the immediate ending of unfair civil discrimination. From 1968 up to that awful climax in August of 1969 they marched but how often during those Civil Rights marches did one hear the term "Catholic" or the term "Protestant" used? Did one hear any term used that was savouring of two communities? The splendid achievement of the Civil Rights movement was that Catholic and Protestant people went out jointly to demonstrate at what they regarded as being unfair and unjust in the society in which they lived.

During those parades there was no violence, no guns, no bombs and no force except the force of the indomitable spirit of decent people who refused to be treated as second class citizens. Let us, then, pay tribute to the men and women who led that movement and also to those who took part in it because they succeeded where guns would not have succeeded and where bombs or gelignite would not have succeeded. They focussed attention on the injustices and the social problems that existed and the world was aghast that in any area which the British regarded as part of their own United Kingdom—the British who had lectured others on justice, on law and order and on fair play—there could be a situation in which apartheid was practised and put fully into operation and where people who shared the same nationality were driven to live in ghettos and isolated from others simply because they followed Christ in a different way.

Let us remember that it was the Civil Rights movement that focussed attention on this situation and that pricked the conscience not only of the British leaders but of the world. There was no violence, no guns, no bombs and no gunmen up to August of 1969. Certainly, there were no gunmen among those who marched, demonstrated and protested within the law, who marched with patience and indulgence and with peace in their hearts. No, the gun bullies came out on the Bogside in Derry and they wore the uniform of the oppressor. They batoned the people and followed them into their houses. Then, the world saw oppression in the raw and saw violence wielded and used by the hired bullies of privilege in order to maintain an edifice that was gradually crumbling. We can remember what happened then. The British Army were sent in and if there had been garlands to be presented they would have been presented because the British Army were greeted by Irish citizens in the Bogside in the same way as the unfortunate people of such countries as France, Belgium and Holland greeted the Allied soldiers when they landed after VE-Day—greeted them as rescuers coming to rescue them from the persecution and oppression they had suffered. There were no Provisionals in Derry in August of 1969 and there were no Official IRA men knocking around Belfast or anywhere else at that time. Where were they? They were not there.

I do not want to enter into areas of which I have no knowledge but something happened in the two years since. Something happened to destroy the Civil Rights movement. Something happened to prevent the undoubted crumbling of the whole edifice in the North which was being achieved, and that was a decision of unscrupulous men to come in and endeavour to turn a situation to their own advantage, to turn it to suit their overweaning ambition.

Over the decades of our turbulent and difficult history many things have been done in this country in the name of patriotism and stated to be on behalf of Ireland. Things that have been done on behalf of this country ranged from any acts of violence of one kind and another down to plain wholesale robbery. I regret to say that things have not changed in the past two years, because it was all there. Violent men came in. They proceeded to turn a situation which was developing outside their control into a situation which they could seek to control for their own purposes. They sought to take the leadership of the minority away from the elected representatives. By one means or another they endeavoured to turn a difficult and dangerous situation into a situation very much worse.

Now two years have passed. Civil rights are no longer mentioned. The fact that everybody up there is an Irishman living in part of our country is forgotten. Now we are back to the middle of the last century. Everybody is either a Protestant or a Catholic and religious bigotry has been re-born and rekindled by reason of the violence that these men exercised. The tragedy is that at the end of it all no progress has been achieved.

I suppose the gunmen are now in control. Why are they in control? Because it is not easy for men of peace to find a ready solution to the North. But they are there. Who can win when violence is used? In my view, no one. Do these men want to win? In my view, they have no interest whatsoever in the achievement of the reunion of the country. They are the greatest partitionists we have ever seen, these men who use violence in the North. They have succeeded in 18 short months in turning two religious communities into isolated camps. They have made far more difficult the long haul towards building the bridges that the Taoiseach talked about today. That is the way they want it. That is their purpose— not to achieve reunion but to bring about anarchy in this country.

I am not afraid of any gunman either south or north of the Border and I will speak my view without any fears in that respect but I think I am entitled to claim a certain right to speak. My great-grandfather was a Fenian. My grandfather and my father were interned in Ballykinlar Camp. Every member of my family has been involved in one way or another in the struggle for freedom for this country over the years. I challenge anyone to compare their day with the situation now in existence in the North of Ireland. People forget that the War of Independence here was a war freely and democratically declared by the people of this country voting in a general election the issues of which were clearly and squarely put before the people electing the First Dáil and authorising and entitling that Dáil to declare, as it did, a War of Independence. Those who fought in that war and took part in it did so because they were acting on behalf of the wishes of the vast majority of the people of this country. That was no case of a small minority assuming the right to do things. It was an instance of the Irish people democratically deciding what national action should be. There is that difference and we should not forget that difference when people today proceed to accord themselves the right to decide what national action ought to be.

In this Parliament, in this Dáil, all political parties have declared unequivocally what their attitude is in relation to the achievement of unity. Each political party have made it clear through their leader that violence and intimidation as a means towards the ending of the division of our country is something that none of us will tolerate. This Dáil is united in that respect in so far as those who lead each political party can state the position. I am not going to say who said it first. That solves nothing. The important thing is that there is absolute unity in so far as the political parties are concerned in that respect.

I do not say that this means that every Deputy in this House shares that view. I do not say that this means that every member of the three parties subscribes fully to that expression of opinion. I do want to say this—that this situation is too serious to allow men remain silent when they hold views which are not consistent with the expressed view of all parties in this House. If there are Deputies sitting now in Dáil Éireann who subscribe to the use of force in relation to Partition let them stand up and speak. If there are Deputies in the Taoiseach's party who do not subscribe to his views, who move together or in tandem for a particular purpose, let them now stand up and speak because this worsening situation, this tragedy for our people in the North, Protestant and Catholic, will not, so far as we are concerned, be used as a plaything for ambitious men to further their interests. It is the duty of each Deputy either to subscribe to the views expressed here on behalf of all political parties or to identify himself as one of the people who prefer to step another way. That is the honest and honourable thing to do and people will then know exactly where they stand. There is nothing worse and nothing more dishonest than the whispered view behind the back of a hand, the fellow who plots and plans but is afraid to speak out. We cannot afford that at this time in this country.

The deteriorating situation in the North, the deepening tragedy as I have called it, is unfolding before our eyes. We see monstrous stupidity dominating the scene; indiscriminate internment at the behest of the leader of the Unionist Government supported and backed up by a closed-minded leader of the British Government playing on the same team, as Mr. Faulkner described it, doing the kind of thing which was so grossly unfair and so unjust that it was calculated to end all possibility of dialogue on behalf of the two communities. We see this unjust internment without trial being continued and supported by those who know it cannot succeed. It has been described as "stupidity"; there it is. It has been followed by further acts of folly and stupidity. References have been made to the blowing up of the roads. Once people begin to behave stupidly there is no limit to which they can go.

Let us not forget that hand in hand with this worsening situation have gone sheer acts of brutality which belong, if they ever belonged anywhere, to the last century, committed by soldiers of the Queen in the name of the Queen. What kind of a Government, either in Belfast or in London, can permit the savage treatment meted out to Irish people and at times to the population and allow that to continue as if it is something that just has to be done? Whatever may be the outcome of this situation, I can only hope that decent public opinion amongst the British people, and amongst those who count in the political parties in Britain, will call for a full investigation of the treatment meted out to the Irish people and that such an investigation may start people pondering and wondering why this sort of thing should be done and how it came about that it was done.

There can be no disputing what happened on 9th August of this year when internment was ushered in and when in the small hours of the morning many innocent people were taken from their homes, brought away and locked up. All of us here know, and there can be no denying it, that many of those people were treated as badly as ever the Germans treated those they interned during the last war—savage treatment was meted out by uniformed bullies all in the name of the Queen. I hope the good lady will blush and I hope her blush will spread amongst British people at the fact that this sort of thing should happen in 1971 in Ireland.

As I have said we are meeting here to discuss this problem; we have a responsibility for it in that we did not think enough about it in days gone by. If we are to build a bridge, as the Taoiseach says, it is a bridge which must have a road leading up to it, and a bridge which when crossed must lead somewhere. We do not want to build bridges or castles in the air. We have to begin to study, late as it may be, what is the implication for all of us who live on this island of the problem, not of Partition, but of a united Ireland. How can we begin to undo the mistakes of over a century? How can we begin to make it possible for those who are descended honourably and nobly from the great Presbyterian patriots of the century before the last to begin to feel again the responsibility their forefathers felt for all of this island? These are the things which will have to be done and it is about time a start was made to do them.

I suspect we are having a very pleasant afternoon's debate here in so far as it is held in what could be described as a political vacuum in that none of the highly articulate, politically conscious members of the Unionist Party are here to deal with some of the speeches made, as I think they could readily and easily do, very effectively. With the exception of Deputy Corish's approach, which did attempt to deal with this matter with the sophistication, courage and depth which it merited, the approach has been a particularly simplistic approach in which the Orangemen, the Unionists, are all the "baddies" and we down here are all the "goodies". It reminds me in some ways of the kind of person who used believe that the first Great War began with the shooting of Archduke Franz Josef in Sarajevo, when in fact we all know it stemmed from the breakdown of the Anglo-French-German imperial system and the decision to fight it out in Europe at the expense of the unfortunate Berlin worker, Munich worker, Glasgow worker, Dublin worker and London worker, impassioned and urged on at the Somme and all these other places. These were the victims, the people sacrificed in that struggle which had little or nothing to do with what happened at Sarajevo. Equally misled are the people who believed that the second world war started when Germany marched into Czechoslovakia. The second world war did not start then; it started when the British and the German ruling classes, wealthy after the first world war, saw the rise of a powerful socialist movement in Germany and saw that there was a real threat to the class structure of their society and because they feared the threat to and the loss of the privilege and wealth they then enjoyed, they backed Hitler and in so doing made the second world war inevitable. Again, fine young Germans, Englishmen, Russians, Americans and Frenchmen were the victims and they paid the penalty for the failure of European society then to deal with the great social evils of that time.

Now we have the simplistic assessment of internment and the brutality of the British Army as the source of our present crisis. It is not as simple as that. It is very easy to blame Faulkner or Westminster, or the British Army or the RUC and not to examine the pattern of our own behaviour and the extent to which we contributed to whatever is happening at present. I must say one thing about the British Army. In 1969 at the height of the trouble in Belfast and Derry I spent some time with my colleagues in Gerry Fitt's house which was barricaded against attack. He spent his time on the telephone, at the request of Catholics in the Falls Road, asking the GOC of the British Army to send troops to protect them against militant Orangemen who were burning down houses or blowing them up. The Catholics were very glad the British Army were there to protect them; the British Army did that. The youngsters with whom I walked around the Falls Road, and who had pickaxe handles with which to defend themselves against the militant Orangemen, at the time also wanted the protection of the British Army and the British Army gave protection.

We must not indulge in an over-simplification of what has happened between 1969 and the present apparently completely brutal behaviour of the British Army in relation to the present situation in the North. How did this come about? One must speak with very great care because it is a desperately dangerous situation in which many people can suffer terribly if we fail to handle it successfully—if that can be done. We do not have to go back very far to see what happened to good, honourable men, civilised men in the ordinary accepted sense of the word, to convert them into brutalised human beings who behaved appallingly whether it was at Auschwitz, or Buchenwald or in our own civil war. I saw a Deputy sitting at a table today in the Dáil, a Deputy who had had his fingernails pulled out by a member of the other side in the civil war. Remember it was in the fifties, or in the forties certainly, that reasonably civilised, humane people created internment camps. There was internment without trial; there were military courts and above all there were executions. I do not like dwelling on these things but it is better to put these attacks on any particular officer into the perspective of the brutalising and depraving effect of war on any man. There is the My-Lai case. I am quite certain these unfortunate young men of the United States are as good or as bad as the rest of us. Look what they did under the provocation of war, under the provocation of the use of force and violence. Is it not true to say that a very large component of our whole culture, certainly in the last 50 years, has been a glorification of violence?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I remember 15 or 16 years ago having to draw the attention of the then Taoiseach, who controlled a number of newspapers, to the fact that one of those papers was carrying a strip cartoon in which there were soldiers or policemen, British soldiers or RUC men, bleeding to death because of some activity, some republican movement or whatever it was and at the same time there were young men in internment camps. There is this whole extraordinary confusion of this idea of republicanism and of what it is. The truth, of course is that there is no party in this House except republican parties. Fine Gael are republican; Labour are republican and Fianna Fáil are republican; we are all republican parties. Saor Éire are a republican party; the Provisionals are republican; the Officials are republican. We all claim to be republican. The truth of the matter is that the word "republican" has no meaning any more. Clann na Poblachta was republican. These people who talk about republicanism should try to explain what they mean.

I left the Marist Brothers in Ballinrobe a militant republican believing in force as a solution to our problems. I was not exceptional. Most of us had these feelings as a result of the teaching of history in the schools. We all went out firmly believing that it was manly to be republican. It was a virility symbol in our culture to have been republican at some time or a member of the republican movement. We went out believing that the use of force was correct and that it was right to kill and to give our lives for Ireland. This was glorified as a form of patriotism. There were brave Nazi patriots who died for their country. There were brave Italian Fascists who died for their country. There were communists who died and French, German and British youngsters who died. Were they all dying for a good cause? Were they all right to give their lives? Was the society which they wanted to create one which they were right in wanting to die for? Of course not.

We have now the three brands of the republican movement using force and violence. When one says he will give his life he also means that he will take life. None of us has a right to take the life of anyone else for any reason at all. I see no difference between the Provisionals, the Official IRA and Saor Éire because in my opinion they are all one of a kind. There is a lot of cowardly evasion and hypocrisy among not only our politicians, but also among the very influential political journalists who deliberately confuse by omitting to mention the role of the Official IRA in the newspapers, on television and on radio. Everyone will pounce on the Provisionals and say they are National Socialists, but there is some wonderful form of Carthusian silence and failure to criticise the Official IRA who have also said that they believe in both the bomb and the bullet tactics for uniting Ireland.

I do not care whether it is a boy or a girl, a man or a woman, or a soldier or a policeman who is killed, killing does not contribute towards the unity of our country. On the contrary, those who kill are the partitionists, par excellence, in the country at the present time. I hear whispers which suggest that if it was not for what is being done in the North we would not have had this meeting with Mr. Heath. Many people believe this is so and are secretly proud of what has been done. We had our meeting with Mr. Heath and Mr. Faulkner, and our Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, was able to tell us that he was recognised as being an important man. What else did the Taoiseach get at that meeting? We all know what he got—nothing whatsoever. On the other side of the balance sheet, what have we got because of the activities of these brave young men? Bravery to me is completely unimportant and completely irrelevant. I attach no significance or meaning to it. As I have said before, some of the bravest men in the world were the most contemptible and the meanest, and stood for the rottenest principles. It is easy to be brave. What else has been achieved? The British Army of Occupation used to be about 3,000 men. It is now 15,000, moving up to 18,000 or 20,000 men. Farmers cannot move from one part of Ireland to the other. The roads are blown up. The Protestant worker hates and fears the Catholic worker. This is of grave concern to us in the Labour movement. The worker hates his fellow worker more now than he ever did before. Houses, factories, industrial premises, hotels, public houses and workshops have been blown up. Thousands of men have been put out of work. The Minister of Commerce in Northern Ireland tells us they are on the edge of bankruptcy up there. About 120 or 130 people have died. The vast majority of these people were civilians—men, women and children. Who is proud of that? Let him stand up and say it. These people who are secretly proud of what these republicans, official or provisional, have achieved with the gun and the bullet, let them declare it. We had Ó Tuathail sending a telegram to Deputy Hillery as Minister for Foreign Affairs, to a Parliament which he has always refused to accept because he was in Sinn Féin and did not accept this Parliament until six months ago. For him the Parliament did not exist and the Minister for Foreign Affairs did not exist. Imagine some people in 1916-22 sending telegrams to the House of Commons asking for help. There are complaints that the civil law is suspended. These people have declared war. They are at war. Because they are at war the civil law has been suspended. I believe that they should, of course, do away with internment. Those who are interned should be examined and tried by some judicial system. It is too naïve to say that they should be tried by the civil courts because we know quite well that they could not be convicted. It is possible to devise some way of separating those who are guilty from those who are innocent, and there are certainly some who are completely innocent.

Internment and brutality in internment are all part of the brutalising effects of war, the brutalising effects on our young men as well as on the British soldiers, the RUC, and their Special Branches, the brutalising effects which led the IRA to break somebody's two legs the other day, to shoot him in what is euphemistically called the thigh and then to tar and feather him. What kind of trial did that young man get? What kind of defence counsel was he permitted? Was he allowed to prepare his defence and who made his defence for him? Was he guilty or was he innocent? Did they make a mistake? I happen to have attended at least one court of this kind in my time and I know how easy it is to make mistakes and to see mistakes made. If they indulge in war then not only must they suffer the brutalisation of war on themselves but on other people also.

Of course, the response by the British and the RUC to the declaration of war has been what we have seen, the appalling violence we have seen. The dangerous thing is that the man in the street down here sees this now as he never saw it before. During the first World War when people waved off the ships in Dún Laoghaire, or in the south of England, or wherever it was, that was the last they saw of the horror of war. The civilian now knows what it is like because he can see it even though he may not feel it. This is causing or beginning to cause a sense of war hysteria down here which is spreading among the ordinary people and a belief, as I said earlier, that we are the "goodies" and the others are all the "baddies". That just is not true.

I expected the Taoiseach to deal in a constructive way with this problem. Instead of that we got a recitation of history which we already knew. One of the most sinister aspects of the present position is that both the Provisionals and the Officials know quite well that by their activities they are bringing nobody to the conference table, neither the Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch nor Deputy Cosgrave if there were a change of Government. Equally those who profess to be socialists, the Officials, must know that any such solution negotiated by either Deputy Cosgrave or Deputy Lynch as Taoiseach could not lead in the final analysis to a socialist 32 county republic. They must know that.

Either they know that and accept that we will be going on as we have been going on for the past 40 or 50 years with economic depression, unemployment, defective social services, and all the rest of it, or else they intend to take over by some form of military coup d'état when they have finished in the Six Counties. We have had an undertaking to that effect from the leader of the Officials, Cathal Goulding, in a speech in which he promised bombs and bullets down here when they are finished up there. I do not think this should be ignored. No one has chosen to examine why it is that the Northern Protestant worker is so frightened. We know quite well that they have a number of imaginary fears, fears that are artificially created by the Unionist leadership for their own reasons. They also have a number of genuine and real fears and everyone in this House knows what they are but so far nobody has mentioned them.

I believe that if we are serious about attempting to create a climate in which we can seriously consider the eventual union of our people—geographical unity is unimportant; unity amongst our people—we must recognise the genuine fears of the Northern Protestant worker that in a united Ireland he would be a minority, a significant minority, and that in the situation of a united Ireland he would suffer in much the same way as the Catholic minority have suffered in the Six Counties since the State was created. He has a sense of guilt and a sense of simple reality that he might be exploited in a united Ireland.

We must make some gesture of sincerity if we are serious about our belief that in a united Ireland he would not find himself exploited in any way or subjected to a sectarian way of life of which he disapproved. None of the parties who have held power over the years was prepared to make the sacrifices needed. Sacrifices are needed not to end Partition or to unite Ireland but to make it easier to begin the long debate which could be entered into so that eventually our people could accept unity in some form or other. There are the obvious constitutional guarantees. There is the position of the Catholic church as the most important church in the community. This is not simply an academic point in the Constitution. In fact it is used in the courts in relation to certain questions dealing with marriage settlements of one kind or another. There are the Ne Temere decree, the right to contraception and family planning, the right to divorce. There is the question of non-sectarian schools, mixed schools. In fact, who are prepared to say that they want to see a united community and want to see it so badly that they are prepared to consider the establishment of a secular constitution and a secular State?

These are serious demands but are you serious in your demand for a united Ireland? If you are not, all right, carry on as you are going, but do not blame the Northerners if they turn on you and say they will not come in to a united Ireland even at the point of a gun. Could you change the position? Could you who believe in the importance of these trappings of the majority church in our society imagine a situation in which the northern Six Counties were a Communist State which intended to take over and establish a 32-county Communist society here? How would you feel about it? Perhaps that is too unreasonable and too unrealistic. Suppose Paisley became Prime Minister tomorrow and developed his marvellous 80,000 to 100,000 armed Orangemen and decided to march down here and establish a militant Protestant State with a militant Protestant constitution, what would your reaction be? Would you accept that? Because you would have a united Ireland even though it happened to be a militant Protestant United Ireland. Would you accept it? Can you not understand how serious it is for the Protestant in the North of Ireland to face the prospect of this threat in some way or other to submerge his spiritual values or moral values, whatever you like to call them, in ones which he considers to be alien or hostile to his own?

There is the question of the social services. We all know that they have better health services, better educational services, better unemployment rates and old age rates. If we had been serious over 50 years surely we would have done something about these barriers; they are not the main obstacle but they are obvious impediments to some kind of rapprochement between the South and the North. Instead of reinforcing the two separate cultures which were established by the plantations at the beginning, we have, by law, in our Constitution, in our general attitude and behaviour, and in our educational system, created two separate communities a Catholic community and a Protestant community, inalienably hostile and opposed to one another.

I believe the Taoiseach simply cannot go across to Downing Street to Mr. Faulkner and Mr. Health without being faced with these logical and legitimate criticisms of his tenure of office and of his predecessors. It is not a special Fianna Fáil failing. We have all failed. We are all guilty in this regard. Even if the Taoiseach did not have to account for his own Offences Against the State Act, his proposals in relation to the Criminal Justice Bill, his threat of internment a little while ago, and his Forcible Entry Act, how he can go to Downing Street threatening Faulkner with anything or accusing Faulkner of anything simply defeats me, because the man is so vulnerable on practically any count, on authoritarianism, on sectarianism, on backward conservative legislation, on the rate of unemployent, on the rate of emigration.

I do not know what he could have said to either Heath or Faulkner. We do not operate in a vacuum; they know about these things as well as we do. He gives the impression, by his timid condemnation of what goes on in the North that he is hoping to float into a situation, in which in some way or other he might find himself negotiating a settlement for a united Ireland. The truth of the matter is that the average nationalist worker, Catholic worker, does not want to have any part of, does not want to belong to, this kind of society organised as it is in social terms. In addition to that there is the financial question of £150 million that he has to find if Partition is ended tomorrow and Ireland is united.

These are the practical problems with which the Taoiseach should have dealt when he was talking this evening instead of giving us the cursory comments, to which Deputy Corish referred, about building bridges between ourselves and the people of the North. It has always seemed to me, at any rate, that people calling themselves Sinn Féin or the republican army or, indeed, Fianna Fáil, or Fine Gael are wasting their time going along to the North to the Protestant worker and asking: "Will you join us?" When even the use of the Irish language is anathema in the North, to leave aside its connotations in social terms and connotations in historical terms over the last 50 or 60 years.

There is only one movement which can hold its head high and logically appeal to the northern Protestant and that is the trade union movement and the Labour movement. It is for that reason that I tried to get into the Labour movement and work from within the Labour movement, to work in a democratic way to try to get our society here so changed that the prospect of working with us and living with us, becoming part of a united nation, would not be as terrifying to the northern Protestant Unionist worker as it appears to be.

I realise, like other Deputies, that in speaking in this debate one has to try to make some constructive suggestions and avoid anything that would cause more suffering to the people of the North. It is right that we should condemn violence. Having seen on our television screens the reporting of the young Protestant child killed in Derry, and the reporting of the Catholic man who was shot going to his work in Belfast, one realises that violence, like peace, is indivisible, that once it starts the mere fact of belonging to a particular church will not protect one.

We should also examine the cause of this violence, why it came about and why, since 1969 to-date, this violence has been increasing so that more people are suffering and more people are being killed. In my view the cause of the violence is the fact that for 51 years— ignoring the 250 years before that— the ruling class in the North strove hard to hold on to their supremacy, to ensure that they would have the power of government, that they might give out the gifts to their supporters and deny even basic rights to ordinary people. We thus understand, without excusing it, why such violence takes place.

I do not accept any more that this is an issue between Catholics and Protestants. I believe that if there were no such churches as Catholic and Protestant or no such division, the Unionist Party are quite capable of inventing some division in order to bolster up their regime. The old battle going on in the North today is between the haves and the have-nots, and in the have-nots I include the working people of Shankill Road as well as the working people in the Falls Road. If the Catholics have suffered somewhat more than the Protestants it is because in their general selfishness, in their desire to hold on to power, the Unionist bosses can exploit, and have exploited all the time, Protestant workers all over the Six Counties. They have used this to divide the people. They have told them that if they voted anything except Unionist all kinds of things would follow.

We, the people of goodwill in all parts of the country, have a duty to speak to the Protestant workers and to try to show them how they are being exploited by the Unionists, not to bring any prosperity to the Protestant section but so that Unionism can continue to rule in the North-eastern part of the country. If Unionist action brings on violence I doubt whether they regret it. If the Protestant worker on the Shankill Road is killed the Unionist Party make propaganda out of it and, of course, always blame the minority. After 50 years surely somebody has learned something. Perhaps what we have learned is that as long as it is humanly possible that part of the British Conservative Party, the Unionist Party, will cling to office by fair means or foul. They have not got full employment. Not having this they must decide who get the jobs, who get the plums of office. I do not think the fact that they are the last part of the British Empire on this side of the world counts all that much. I always suspect their protestations of loyalty to the British Crown. We recall that they threatened to kick the Crown into the Boyne. They have no clearcut loyalties to any institution apart from that which will pay them very well.

What have we done down here to convince the people of the North that we wish them to join a united Ireland? We can offer them a better society than they have got at the moment. Of course we will be told that our social services are far behind the northern social services, that their old people are looked after better. To some extent this is true but this opens up a wider picture. At present the British Government pay huge subsidies to the North. We do not wish to see northern social services cut to hurt anybody but we long for some British statesman with the wisdom of a de Gaulle. When the French decided to pull out of Algeria they paid compensation to the people left there, and continued to do so for many years. Surely the time has come when Britain must realise that no matter what temporary settlement is made now in a few years time the trouble and violence will start again. It is always back to Britain's door because if Britain really wanted to play her part in bringing peace to this country she would do so and forget her selfish interests and concentrate on fair play for all the people there. Some day she will have to do this. Why in the name of heavens can she not do it now before more people are killed, before she must pour more millions of pounds into the North, before more of her own soldiers are killed? It may be said that this is not so easy, that the Unionist bosses will fight to the last to retain their privilege and power. This has often happened with colonial powers but some day they must face it. Maybe we are near a settlement but I would hate to think that it would be a kind of temporary settlement under which we would have peace for two or three years and then the awful carnage would start again. We have heard violence condemned in many cases and particularly in this House but when the people in the North, Protestants as well as Catholics, set about in a peaceful way, through the Civil Rights movement, to better the lot of the people there we know what happened. We know what happened at Burntollet. We know what happened when the RUC went on a rampage through blocks of flats in the Bogside. One wonders how people in the 20th century could carry on like that. When most of us heard of the Civil Rights movement we thought this was the answer, no violence, just a seeking for basic rights for all the people there. Perhaps they were making too much progress and the people there did not like it so violence broke out on the Civil Rights marchers. Then the situation drifted until 1969 when it really exploded and for the last two years we have seen the terrible situation in Derry, in Belfast, in Strabane and in other places.

Unlike Deputy O'Higgins I have no great history of involvement in Irish politics but I have spent some time each year in the North not on any crusade or as a man with a message but simply talking to people. I realise that there are many people, Protestant and Catholic, who want to live in peace. It is our task to find out why they cannot live in peace like the Catholics and Protestants of Holland, Germany or anywhere else. We hear them condemned because there is too much religion. It is not because there is too much religion but this picture has been deliberately blurred by the Unionist Party and they will not let them live in peace because if they lived in peace they might eventually unite and the Protestant people might vote otherwise than Unionist and turn the Government out of power. Some day this will happen. The terrible tragedy is that it seemingly cannot happen without all the bloodshed, horror and suffering.

I have heard it said by several speakers today that there are people in this part of the country who are partly in favour of violence. I do not know how anybody could be in favour of violence when one sees the pictures on television and in the newspapers and when one hears of the Electricity Board offices being blown up and a man killed and others injured. One does not need much imagination to think that this could have been the ESB office not far from us here. Violence is not selective. All the people suffer. That is why I condemn violence. In condemning violence we must blame all the people responsible for it. Apart from throwing a bomb or firing a shot there is the violence which deprives a man of ordinary basic rights. One is struck immediately by the atmosphere in Derry. If one walks through the Bogside, even when it is peaceful, one senses something is wrong. Frequently I have thought that a coloured man in Alabama must share the same sense of being part of an oppressed minority. In Alabama it is because the person's skin is black, in the North it is because of a person's faith or belief.

There is a great human struggle in the North and people will differ on the method of solving the problem. If any party in the South consider that the way to attain a united Ireland is by violence they should go before the people and put this policy before them. If the people accept their policy, that party have a mandate to act in that way but until such time as that happens we are committed to peaceful means designed to prevent suffering and carnage in the North.

People say we have neglected the North during the years. Perhaps we have neglected them in that we have not always considered policies that would appeal to the majority in the North and which would show them that we can offer them a society in which they would take their place as fellow-Irishmen. People say our Constitution and laws would penalise the Protestants in the North in the matters of divorce and contraception. I see the northern Protestant as a person who may go to a Bible meeting or to a different Church other than we do but who worships the same God as we worship. It may be that he abhors measures such as contraception as do people in the South.

These matters are not great obstacles to unity. The great obstacle is the fear engendered in the ordinary Protestant worker by the Unionist régime. We know people are continually being threatened about what will happen to them if they join in what they call "the Free State". If Linfield football team are beaten by Shamrock Rovers, the ordinary people are taught that the Fianna Fáil Government are delighted. The fact that members of Fianna Fáil —as well as members of the Labour Party and Fine Gael—may never have heard of the Linfield football team does not impress them. These childish fears have been instilled in the northern people for many years. The northern Protestants have been worked on for many years: these fears have been instilled in their minds and, therefore, it is easy to understand why they may say they will not enter a united Ireland.

Let this message go forward to the people in the North: we are against violence; we desire to see them in a united Ireland as fellow-Irishmen with equal rights. I do not think this end will be attained so long as the British Conservative Government in utter stupidity will not face the fact that they cannot continue bolstering this régime in the North. Some time ago the Taoiseach said that Stormont must go and this is becoming more inevitable each day.

It may be asked what will replace Stormont. Perhaps it may be direct rule from Britain which might or might not be any better. So long as the country is divided we will not have a peaceful country. There may be peace for two or three years but inevitably violence will break out. The Civil Rights movement will start and the Unionists will see in this a threat to their existence. They will adopt the policy of divide and conquer and try to get Catholic and Protestant against one another and in this way the Unionist Party will be saved.

One one occasion a Unionist leader said that so long as the Shankill Road workers and the workers in Ballymena, Portadown and other places voted Unionist that party was invincible. By getting across to the workers in the Belfast shipyards, in the mills in Derry, the workers in Strabane and Portadown, the message that they have nothing to fear in a united Ireland we can, in our time, have a majority in the North and achieve unity in our country.

People tell us we must make sacrifices but what sacrifices can we make? We have bent over backwards in saying that we want peace and condemn violence and that we want the Northern people with us because this is our country. In addition, we have been taught this by the Presbyterians who did strive for Irish unity and freedom. In the North today if a Presbyterian Minister or lay person preached as did Orr or Neilson or others they would be interned.

Let us condemn the root of the violence—the British Tory Party and Government. We have heard the stupid utterances of the Prime Minister in his defence of events in the North. For instance, in connection with brutalities in the internment camps there was the statement that "it just does not happen". However, it was necessary to withdraw that statement. We know that in any country where there is an army of occupation brutalities will take place. We must get it across to the people in the North, Protestant and Catholic, that the British Government or the Unionist Party are not there for the good of the people. They are there to bolster a régime which would not stand if democratic elections were held in the North.

We have a duty to condemn violence, whether by an illegal organisation, the British Army, the RUC or by the Unionist Government. The Protestant workers are being exploited by the Unionists. Until we can stop this exploitation, and until the Northern workers really decide they cannot support the Unionist Government then, and only then, will we have unity and peace in the North.

So much has been said by so many people with regard to Northern Ireland that it would be impossible to say anything original or sensational on the matter. It is not my intention either to be original or sensational but merely to speak to the House on a situation as inevitable as any other rising or rebellion Ireland has witnessed. The only difference is that it is happening in 1971—not in 1916 or 1798. It is happening not at the GPO, Dublin, or at Boulavogue, but in the Six Counties.

Why is it so difficult for us not to accept this? Perhaps we do not wish to accept it. Perhaps we are satisfied with the Twenty-Six Counties; maybe we have such a vested interest in the Twenty-Six Counties that we are not prepared to face the responsibility of a 32-County Ireland. It is quite right for us who have a completely independent free State to decide our approach to the unification will be to reject the use of force but the people in the Six Counties are in a different position. They have suffered discrimination, repression and violence for more than 50 years. They have demanded freedom and ordinary civil rights.

What have they got instead? They have got indiscriminate internment without trial, brutality, violence and even torture. If they decide to resist and to defend themselves and if in the natural course their resistance and defence develops into meeting aggression with aggression then if we are to keep faith with our national traditions we must at least be sympathetic to them. Recent happenings have indicated to the contrary; if we are not even neutral in their struggle against British oppression we will be harshly judged by history. If we do not protest at our Government actively co-operating with the British effort to bring them to their knees we will be earning eternal disgrace for this generation of the Irish people. I do not consider it is very necessary to itemise instances where it is apparent to me and to many others that we are co-operating with the British troops and with Mr. Heath.

The Deputy should remember it is the situation in Northern Ireland that this debate is about.

Precisely. I would like to ask why should we have to patrol our side of the Border? Is it to keep the UVF or the British soldiers from crossing on to the 26 County side or is it perhaps part of the Chequers Treaty that we are to supplement the British forces and ensure that no one crosses to the other side of the Border? Why were the FCA called on to active duty? Are they called in to safeguard our installations in this free part of Ireland, as they have done admirably, or are they in fact to supplement Her British Majesty's Forces in the North? Why were armoured cars, if one may ask the question, stopped from being transported to Cyprus recently? Are they also to be part of our part of the bargain?

I must again remind the Deputy that it is the current northern situation we are dealing with.

I suggest it is the current situation in the North as the Deputy sees it.

I should like to ask the question why so many of our gardaí have been drafted for Border patrol when so many of them are needed in other parts of Ireland, including Dublin, to keep down crime? Is our taxpayer happy to see this community in need of increased Garda protection and the Government ordering gardaí to the Border? Again one may ask the question: is this to assist the British oppression of the North?

Was the purpose of the recent call by the Taoiseach—indeed he reiterated it again today—for a UN observer force to come to patrol the 26 County side of the Border to doubly assure Mr. Heath, as he indicated to him at Chequers, that he was in fact going to fulfil his obligations? If these United Nations observers should indicate to the British Government, or to the Taoiseach that we are not doing enough, what would happen then? If such a request was made by a UN observer force would we find ourselves stepping up our Garda force or our military force to patrol the border? Nobody, particularly anybody not involved in the actual situation, could condone some of the incidents attributed to the republican side, although by no means all of those incidents which have been condemned by Members of this House have been established to be republican actions. While deploring irresponsible bombings which endanger uninvolved civilians, we must remember the circumstances. They are in conflict with a vastly superior enemy. They would probably prefer to oppose Saracen armoured cars with something similar, to use CS gas against CS gas.

It is always the case that an inferior side in a conflict such as this finds itself in desperation driven to adopt measures not considered fair by professional soldiers. It is certainly not justifiable to endanger bystanders. We must remember that the ambush tactics used in the War of Independence from 1919 to 1921 earned the same description as that given to what is happening in the Six Counties today. We are told that British soldiers have been murdered today but 50 years ago we were told that the Soloheadbeg, Crossbarry and Kilmichael ambushes were murders also. Policemen in plain clothes have been shot in Belfast but there were a number of people alleged to be British agents shot in Dublin on the morning of Bloody Sunday 50 years ago.

I certainly agree that sufficient care has not been taken in a number of cases but I am not involved. It is easy for me and everybody here to pontificate. The number of incidents of irresponsibility is remarkably small and they are certainly not all on the one side. It is fair to say that the republican movement acknowledge the bombings they are responsible for but are we to be considered naïve when we suggest that bombings would not be the responsibility of the UVF or some lunatic extremist Protestant? I do not think so. The people who are opposing the present British aggression in the Six Counties are part of the majority of Irish people and not, as the Taoiseach said when he referred to them, part of the minority. They are demanding exactly the same thing as was involved in 1916 and in the War of Independence. They have just as much justification as had the people who opposed the British Army at that time.

In my view what is happening is a continuation of the effort that was unfinished 50 years ago. The attitude some of the Members of this House would like to get across to the public is that type of selfish materialistic attitude which is so aptly covered by the old saying: "I am all right, Jack." It is a national tragedy that at this time, when the downtrodden people are standing up to their oppressors, the Government here are not prepared to support them either by word or deed.

In order to clarify that point I should like to refer to the arms trial when the present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Gibbons, was asked questions relating to whether he felt that the training of personnel from the Six County area in a Donegal barracks enabled them to defend themselves and did he consider if this was assisting them. He declined to say either "yes" or "no" but he went as far as to say that the Government were sympathetic to the situation in the North. Did Deputy Gibbons step out of line or did he express the true sentiments of the Government? One must remember that the Government included men like Deputy Charles Haughey, Deputy Blaney, Deputy Moran and Mr. Kevin Boland. That statement is entirely wrong and misleading now from a Government which does not include these men.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach does he still accept the bona fides of the British Government which permits the brutality and torture practised on people guilty of no crime? If not, why does he not make that clear? Has he abandoned his position as leader of the Irish people? He may still be leader of Fianna Fáil.

The Government attitude throughout all this period from August, 1969, has been completely inadequate and that at a most critical time in our history. This is clearly a time when an effort is being made to bring the long struggle of the Irish people for independence to an end and, at this time, we find the elected Government standing not merely idly by but actively co-operating to bring about the defeat of the nationalist community. We may protest at the manner in which internment was introduced but, since we cannot protect these citizens of ours, we have not the right to dictate to them and compel them to be completely submissive in the face of brutal repression. If we regard them as fellow-Irishmen our sympathies should be with them, even if their methods are not what we would advise from our position of detachment.

The British Government continues to insist that the Six Counties is part of the United Kingdom and that it will remain so. If we are to be true Irishmen here in this Dáil we should proclaim that this is not so. We should assert that the Six Counties are part of Ireland and not of Britain. We should re-assert the claim in our Constitution to the right of the Irish people to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of the national territory. We should tell the British that they are the cause of all the unrest and violence in our country, that they must go and that we regard it as our duty to make them go. It must be made clear to Mr. Health and Mr. Maudling that their army is illegally here, whatever British law may say, and that they have no right to make arrests in our country or to demolish parts of our road system. It should be pointed out to them that these are the acts of an enemy.

The main objection I have to the Government's approach is that it is concerned only with the short-term problem of current violence. It implies that the violence originates from the nationalist side. The approach of a party set up to achieve a 32-County republic should be to deal with the fundamental problem. This fundamental problem is the British creation of a six-county state and its guarantee of its continuance. It must be clear that there can never be permanent peace here unless the British recognise that they made a mistake in 1920 and that their continuing guilt—I will rephrase that: it must be made clear that there can never be permanent peace here unless the British realise their 1920 mistake and their continuing guilt and, until they announce their intention of withdrawing from this country, it is no function of ours to find a solution to the problem in the North. The British Government must decide to withdraw over a ten-year period, and not just their forces but their influence. Instead of British troops there should be a genuine peace-keeping force in that part of Ireland until the phasing-out period has ended. Then, and only then, will it become a problem for Ireland to solve.

The Government in failing to concentrate on this fundamental issue is, in my opinion, reneging on the Irish nation and ensuring a continuation of a bitterness and violence between Irishmen. This is not a time for pulling punches or for soft pedalling. We should concentrate on the real culprit, the British Government. The national objective is to get the British out of our country. We are making no effort at Government level to do that. In view of our history, can we be surprised that an effort will be made, whether the Government likes it or not. It is unrealistic to expect that they will accept the role of collaborators with the British Army and the British Government in present circumstances. Our Government should adopt the role of leadership in this effort. It is only by such leadership that further and more widespread violence can be avoided. Unfortunately it is only too clear that this leadership will not be forthcoming. It is here that tragedy lies.

This is unfortunately a very depressing debate. It is depressing because of the appalling situation in the North. Indeed, the situation up there is so appalling that it has its effect down here and makes things down here equally depressing. There are certain emotions abroad in that part of our country, emotions of hate and fear and sorrow. Above all, there is the emotion of despair. These emotions are the most terrible of any emotions to be borne by a human person. If they have to be borne by an individual for any length of time they are bound to drive that individual to insanity.

When we consider that a community, or a nation, or a state, or, as some people prefer, a statelet is only the sum of a number of individuals and that those individuals have to carry this dreadful burden, then the only result, I think, is total destruction. That is, I think, the only end and, in that total destruction there must be, unfortunately, a great deal of bloodshed and violence. This is something we must face up to: one despairs of seeing any solution, but we must try to think if there is anything we can suggest that might go even part of the way towards even a partial solution. The situation is so bad any straw is worth grasping.

The situation luckily in this part of the country is not yet so bad. I hope it will not be allowed to degenerate into the condition in which Northern Ireland finds itself. I use the words "allowed to degenerate" deliberately because it is entirely within the compass of our Government to ensure that our society here does not drift into that lawless, anarchic condition in which Northern Ireland now finds itself.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

It is not enough for the Government here to condemn viollence in mild words and phrases and to speak in admonitory terms to a section of the community which we know, from watching their activities in the North, are not susceptible of admonition in mild verbal terms. It is the solemn duty of the Government here to ensure that these people are made aware, and made aware forcefully, that they will not be tolerated in this community.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

They must be made aware that we do not want to see here the death, the destruction, the sorrow, the hate and the fear that they have introduced in Northern Ireland and for which they are primarily responsible. Our Government have a solemn duty to all the people of this country to ensure that those conditions do not pertain here. They have a duty to us so that our lives in this society may be reasonable, but in addition they have a duty to our fellow Irishmen in the North of Ireland because if the society down here turns into a replica of the one existing up there, there is not much point in offering a united Ireland to anybody.

The first essential towards the unity which everyone desires and which, instinctively, we all believe would mean a better life for everyone in Ireland— maybe some of us have rationalised it for ourselves—is a united community in the North. At the moment there is a wide gulf between the two communities there. There is no need to define what they are. There are fringes interlocking but by and large they are disstinct and discernible as being distinct and everyone knows precisely what I mean. That gulf between these people is growing wider daily. The reforms or mild placebos, as they could be described, which were introduced by the Unionist Government and brought in by Westminister have failed totally to prevent the two communities drifting apart. These were reforms that were sought in very strong terms by the minority. They were the abolition of the B Specials, the disarming of the police force, one-man-one-vote in local elections, the points system for the allocation of houses by local authorities and the placing of Catholics in certain posts from which, previously, they had been excluded, whether consciously or unconsciously. These reforms were introduced with the idea of reforming that society and, ultimately, with the idea of uniting that society, but it is obvious that the reforms have failed completely in those objects and the society there is as disunited, if not more so, than ever. Until such time as the society in the North is united there is no point, in my opinion, in talking of a united Ireland.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Therefore, we must consider what more can be done or what could be the next step in trying to rectify the situation. Talks have been fruitless. The Taoiseach has been to Chequers and has had talks with the British Prime Minister in the company of Mr. Faulkner. There were Press conferences after these talks. It is good to have discussion but I regret to have to say that in actual terms on the ground in Northern Ireland these talks have been absolutely fruitless. This is the hard reality and I cannot see any future in any further discussions if they are only to have the same lack of result.

The policy of force that is being pursued by Irishmen in the North of Ireland is the one policy that cannot succeed. If the aim of these people is a united Ireland, can they not realise that people cannot be united forcibly, that people cannot be bullied into unity? The Catholic Hierarchy of the North of Ireland put the matter starkly when they asked some months ago how anyone in his sane senses could imagine that a million Protestants could be bombed into a united Ireland. The truth of that remark is so glaring and self-evident that it appals me that there are some people in this country who are so blind, so ignorant or so malicious that they are not prepared to accept that so obvious truth. It is a depressing and, indeed, a despairing situation that we should have in this part of the world in the latter end of the twentieth century a minority who consider force to be something that will achieve their aim. We presume that their aim is a peaceful united Ireland.

Before coming to speak on this debate I indicated that I intended to speak out in unequivocal terms of condemnation against these terrorists, against these assassins, against these gangsters and gunmen, but it was suggested to me that this might not be prudent because there was considerable support for them and that this condemnation of them could be damaging to me in terms of electoral support at a future date. My only answer to that is that, if this cancer has so permeated the people of Ireland that there is now so much electoral support for these people that condemnation of them would cost me my seat, I would not wish to offer myself as a candidate to such a community.

However, I do not think that things have gone that far. The vast majority of the Irish people recognise the evil of this policy of force. There is a certain sneaking admiration for the activities of these gunmen by some people who should know better. I cannot understand how anyone could have any admiration for such warped policy. The people about whom I speak profess that their policy of force is one of defence against attack by the British forces. It has been pointed out by other speakers that sniping from behind at a sentry while that sentry is standing in a sentry box and looking out at the street can hardly be termed self-defence. One reads of the numerous careless and callous bomb attacks which can damage harmless civilians and injure them severely, and these attacks, likewise, cannot be termed to be carried out in self-defence. It is an appalling situation that there is so much lack of humanity and so many people professing republicanism, patriotism, love of Ireland and of Irishmen, that they can indulge in these inhuman activities. I despair that they should be so callous and so lacking in human feeling that recently, for instance, in the case of the killing of a British soldier they said his life was taken in revenge for the accidental killing of a young girl on her way to school. This pagan, primitive philosophy of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth or revenge for the sake of revenge is distressing in a civilised society two thousand years after Christ came on this earth, particularly when one remembers that the wife of that soldier was pregnant with their fifth child and that as a result of a "patriotic" act by an Irishman she can now look forward to a lonely delivery.

Anyone who by word of encouragement or the collection of money or the sending of gelignite or the easing of the supply of arms—and I ask every Member of this House to examine his conscience in regard to those items— anyone who has been guilty of any of those activities his hands are stained with the same blood as is on the hands of the actual murderer who pulled that trigger and blood is the same colour whether it is an English soldier's or an Irish citizen's. It is regrettable it should be spilt in any part of this country.

The proposition that force is senseless is so patent that it should not have to be developed in a civilised country in this day and age but, unfortunately, it has not got across to people that it is pointless. It is pointless because it cannot achieve what it is meant to achieve. Do the people perpetrating force think they are going to defeat in combat of arms a trained and skilled army and that they are going to subdue one million Unionists? How can they be so dense as to think that? Have they no moral sense that they cannot see the wrong of what they are doing or have they been blinded by some warped philosophy that they are fighting a just war and that all these things are justified? I despair of our 50 years of independence; it has been wasted if any Irishman can listen to and accept such a philosophy in this day and age.

It seems to me, looking at this situation in Northern Ireland, this depressing and horrifying situation, that force will not solve it. That is patent. The reforms so far introduced have been quite ineffectual. The community has drifted wider apart. It seems to me the present structure is so rotten and bad and has been such an absolute failure that it must be abolished immediately and the abolition must be carried out by Westminster which has the legal power to do so.

One can hear the argument raised that should Westminster abolish Stormont and introduce direct rule from London the much feared Protestant backlash will happen. I do not think so. I do not think there is any need for that to happen nor would there be any desire on the part of Protestants to make it happen because their great worry all the time has been what they call their constitutional position within the United Kingdom and how could they be more within the United Kingdom than by being subject to direct rule from the very heart of it in London?

I think that in addition to introducing direct rule from Westminster it should be accompanied by some form of a local government for Northern Ireland, a local government constituted, perhaps, not on electoral lines but on vocational lines in which all sections of the community irrespective of religion would be represented. I would hope that a totally new society up there would evolve from such a move and that if such a society evolved the sense of injustice and the frustrations which originally gave rise to the trouble which was escalated by men of violence would be removed and that you could then begin, and only begin, towards achieving harmony in that community. It would be a very gradual process and it would have to be a very slow process and it would have to be something to be handled with great sensitivity and delicacy all the time but I think it is achievable. Looking at the present horrifying situation, I think it must be tried because I can see no other solution. The present system has utterly failed. It must be replaced. The only thing that can replace it in any safety is direct rule from Westminster.

We may say here that that is putting the unification of Ireland even farther away. That is something with which I would not agree because, if I may remind you, my original premise for the unification of Ireland was a united community in the North and if anything is introduced which can lead towards a united community in the North, then I think inevitably we are on the road towards a united Ireland. If the standard of justice which pertains all over England, Scotland and Wales and the type of administration which pertains there could be transferred to Northern Ireland, I think that very quickly the community would settle down and that a new way of life would take over. The men of violence in each wing would find themselves isolated. They would not have ground on which they could grow and I think they would wither because I have no doubt that the minority community, which at the moment is sheltering and supporting the members of the IRA and will continue to do so so long as there is oppression by British forces, so long as there is injustice by Stormont, if they saw that oppression by British forces stopped and knew there was going to be gradual withdrawal of those forces and if they saw the injustices of Stormont removed and replaced by British standards—although the term "British standards" has pejorative overtones in this country but I use the term in its best sense—the tacit, overt, support for these terrorist organisations would die away and if they did not have the support of the community they themselves would wither and, if they withered, violence would disappear from that community and that community would be on the high road to friendship and to a sense of unity.

The situation then is that you would have a peaceful community up there governed by some form of structure representative of the entire community. With the advent of our entry into the European Economic Community it would appear that there will have to be continuing and growing trade and contacts between the two parts. These could be deliberately fostered by the application of goodwill down here in all spheres—commercial, industrial, sporting, cultural—so that, in effect, you would have two united communities, the united community in the North and a united community in the South co-operating daily in detail.

At that stage, what matter a line on a map or the colour of a flag? Surely, in this year of 1971 the old doctrine of narrow nationalism, which after all was conceived by men to promote freedom for themselves, is irrelevant. If they have that freedom, what do they want with the rigid application of doctrinaire nationalism?

Perhaps I may recall to the House what, in effect, the Border would be then. There would not be customs huts if they were all members of the Community. There would be no physical line on the ground. There would be constant intercourse back and forth between the two parts of Ireland. The fact that it is indivisible is patent at the moment because of the misguided policy of the British Army in cratering Border roads. This does not and cannot prevent access to anyone who wants to go back and forth. Indeed, the suggestion from this part that if the Border is to be controlled it should be a matter for the United Nations is equally fallacious. Can one imagine a jeep load of Finns and Indians on the lower slopes of the Cuilcagh mountains on a dark winter's night between Cavan and Fermanagh trying to find out where the Border was or trying to stop smugglers from going back and forth? That suggestion shows a complete lack of reality of the situation.

There is no physical boundary between the two parts of Ireland. What we have to remove is the 50 years of ignoring of the North by this part of the country and 50 years of injustice by the other part. This cannot be removed overnight, it can only be removed gradually and in my opinion it can only be removed by the way I have stated: let Westminster take over control and responsibility for Northern Ireland; let them impose there the same standards, the same rules and the same laws in the same way as they impose them in the rest of England, Scotland and Wales; let them see that these are administered by a local parliament—call it what you like— properly representative of all the community. If that happens the reason for the gunmen will disappear, they will wither and that community up there could and would over a time, not immediately, become peaceful. We might then begin to get away from the present situation of hate, fear and sorrow and, above all, get away from this dreadful despair that is so prevalent over this country today.

The message which should go out from this House during this debate is one of goodwill towards the Unionist population of the North. The Nationalist population know that they have our goodwill but the Unionists are apprehensive of this Parliament and of this part of Ireland. It should go out unequivocally from this debate that they have nothing to fear, we have no designs on their territory, we have no desire to seize their businesses, we have no desire to see them as second-class citizens. We want to treat them like any other citizen, we want to see them prepared to call themselves Irishmen.

There was an interesting survey done some time ago as to how people in Northern Ireland consider themselves, were they Irish, Anglo-Irish, Scots-Ulster or British and unfortunately the majority of Unionists opted for the term "British". This is unfortunate but perfectly understandable because their leaning has been in that direction and their attention has been drawn in that direction. There have never been enough efforts made from this part of the country towards weaning or wooing those people away from that loyalty they have towards Britain and towards educating them to the fact that they are really Irishmen and that their first loyalty should be to here.

Indeed, if one could conceive it I would like to see a dramatic gesture of reconciliation by the Government and people of this part of the country towards our borthers in Northern Ireland. What form it would take I do not know but it should not be beyond our wit to devise something. I would hope it would be clear to all people in this country that the policy of the gunman is anathema to every Member of this Parliament. I hope this message comes across loud and clear, without any doubt whatever, and that people will see the fallacy and inhumanity of it.

As I have said already it baffles me that a civilised people should fail to see this so obvious truth. It they have failed to see it, it is our duty to emphasise it and ensure that they do see and understand it and that by no word or act do they encourage these people in their dreadful activities. If that message comes from here and the initiative I speak of comes from Westminster this apparently insoluble problem might be on the first halting steps towards solution.

I hope the message that will go out from this important debate to the British Government and the Unionist regime in the North is that a political solution to the problems of the North must come about shortly otherwise the entire country will be involved in bloodshed. It is ludicrous of the British Government to think that the problems of the North will be solved by shipping in more and more soldiers. There cannot be a military solution unless men sit down and settle the problems of the North which are the problems of civil rights. The representatives of the minority in the North have been fighting to have these problems solved for a long time.

We have recognised, admittedly too late, that the minority in the North have been treated as second-class citizens. The Unionist regime in the North have maintained power by oppressing the minority, there is no doubt whatsoever about that. I have lived in mid-Derry, I know what happens. I saw the situation there for a long time—the minority have no rights, they count for nothing. All we have talked about is Partition when in fact the people in the North are looking for basic civil rights. My admiration goes out for the men who started the campaign for civil rights for the minority, for the underprivileged, because that is what they were in the North. This is the root of the problem in Northern Ireland today and neither the British Government nor the Faulkner regime is facing up to it, because the Faulkner regime does not want to relinquish its power and supremacy over the minority. No military might will solve the problems of the North so long as this rot is present in society there.

The representatives of the minority in the North have quite rightly refused to participate in a Government while the present situation exists. Internment will not solve, has not solved and never will solve the problems of Northern Ireland. It was a stupid, ludicrous act which only tended to make the situation worse and excited and inflamed passions even more. Internment is even inflaming passions among our own people in the South. I have seen people not normally aroused become aroused about the problems of the North. They are very antagonistic towards the British for their mishandling of the northern situation. The SDLP have laid down as a condition, and rightly so, that they will not participate in talks until internment ceases because internment is the real problem in Northern Ireland at the present time and it is the one which the British Government are refusing to face up to.

We cannot have internment without trial in a State which belongs to Britain and of which they say it is part. This is repressive legislation, keeping people without trial or any inquiry as to whether they are guilty. We all know there was a fell swoop that morning and that people from all walks of life were caught in the net. Nobody knows exactly the circumstances or conditions under which they were interned or why. Many innocent men may at present be interned. Why should not the SDLP demand that internment cease before they consider sitting down to talk about the problems of the North? We should support them in this attitude. This is the vital issue: that internment in the North should end. Then we shall see some semblance of British justice in the North of Ireland. You cannot talk about the Downing Street declaration so long as internment exists. We should be denouncing it here with all our might. This is one thing we must put an end to. People must get their freedom. We cannot say things have improved since internment; in fact they have deteriorated. It has inflamed passions that would not normally be inflamed. It is repulsive to any normal person to have people deprived of freedom and of rights without redress and not have justice for all.

We have minority representatives in Northern Ireland. They will participate in a proper democratic Government there once they see some semblance of sincerity on the part of the British Government in ensuring a democratic regime in the North. There must be an end to the present Unionist regime which must be replaced by a proper Government, representative of these people and the Unionists, the Protestant majority. The present regime must be altered very much if we are to have justice in Northern Ireland and a community in which people can live in peace. The present situation is deplorable and I blame the Faulkner Government for escalating it. It is certainly spilling over into the South and there are people now training all over the country, people joining the present IRA, official or unofficial. This is exactly what is happening. I feel disturbed, and many will feel disturbed, at the attitude in the South towards the Provisionals because there is certainly great admiration among many people in the South for their actions. This is understandable, perhaps, at times. The IRA must realise, however, that they have set back the Civil Rights movement a long way by their actions. They have destroyed the good work done by the Civil Rights movement in the North. They may not realise this but the main emphasis in Britain at present is on the terrorists and not on the injustice in Northern Ireland. This is a great shame and pity because we are losing sight of what is really wrong in the North. I was away for a while and all I read in the British newspapers was about the terrorists in the North. Now the British public are thinking that there are terrorists in the North frightening the ordinary people. Yes, there are. The IRA have done a lot of harm. I have been sympathetic to the IRA: I never knew much about them; I felt sorry for them in that they were misled but I do not think they will achieve reunification of the country or peace and harmony in the North by their actions. I think they are wrong and that young men are being misled. We will have a dangerous situation if they continue.

What can we do about this? We can do much to stop the tendency in the South for people to become more and more sympathetic to the IRA and the Provisionals. I do not think they will achieve their aims. I do not think their actions are right and I believe they are setting back the progress achieved by the Civil Rights movement. We must let them know the error of their ways. We must carry on a campaign in the South. We must tell the people in the South that the Provisionals and their actions are wrong and undoing the work of those in the North who are fighting for justice and civil rights. It is very important for us to do this. If we do not do it we will see an escalation of the trouble throughout the South. I have admired them but I think they are wrong and they will not achieve their purpose. Unification will not be achieved by their way.

We must get our priorities right. We all want reunification; I want it very much and I have often said so but we must talk about civil rights in the North and about giving the minority their rights. We can talk of other things later. We have had talks, even tripartite talks and meetings, but the political solution has not come. I wonder why, because the political solution exists and it should call for no great effort on the part of the British Government to ensure the rights of the minority in the North. There must be a written declaration by Britain of the right of the minority to participate in Government.

Last year I suggested that there should be a proper national government in the North, fully representative of the minority. Given that, you will find the loyalty of the people in the North will be to that Government. At the moment, and because of the stupid actions of the British Government which is bolstering up the Faulkner regime, the people are being alienated from their normal representatives and turning towards the IRA. There is hero worship in the North at present because of the spectacular deeds and achievements of the IRA at times. When they moved into a hospital and took out a man in the face of the British Army and so on I was tempted to admire their actions and I am typical of a number of people who may share that feeling but my good sense tells me that I am wrong to think like that. The British Government, by continuing to bolster up the Faulkner regime, by permitting internment to continue, are making the situation worse. That is true of every day internment continues. By moving in more and more British troops they are making the situation worse. All they need to do is say to Mr. Faulkner, his Unionist regime and the extremists on the right: "You must accept that your days are numbered and you must share Government with the minority." We must demand that Britain say this. It is an obvious solution to the problem of the North. We must not confuse this with reunification of the country. We must give the minority their share, and the sooner Britain realises this the better.

Britain holds the trump card because she is subsidising the North. She cannot say: "We are afraid if Faulkner goes, it is the end." She must dictate terms to Faulkner and tell him that the answer to the problem is sharing government with the minority. When that right is given you will find people not giving support to the gunmen. The people who are being interned must be released. That is a further action on Britain's part that would ensure that she was sincere about seeking a proper political solution to the problem of the North. If internment ends the SDLP will more than willingly enter into discussions on participation in Government. It seems such a simple answer, but Britain remains dogged and pigheaded on this issue. Britain is complicating the issue. It is not a difficult problem. When people have entrenched positions and have enjoyed special powers they do not like parting with them. I do not think there will be a Protestant backlash. The people in the North are now tired of the situation. I speak regularly on the phone to people in the North. They want peace there. The Unionist regime are not prepared to give way. Britain can force Mr. Faulkner and his men. The Protestant majority in the North want peace and to be able to live amicably with their neighbours. They are content to share responsibility and to share government with their Catholic neighbours. They want to see an end to the gunmen's activities. There will be an end to these activities if the minority get a share in government. There would be loyalty among the people towards a proper, democratic system of government if such a government replaced the present Stormont regime. Direct rule from Westminster is not the answer. What is needed is a new, transformed government in the North. A transformed Stormont is the answer to the problem. This is so obvious that people are losing sight of this fact. It would take a bold act by the Prime Minister of Britain to transform Stormont. Unfortunately, people must die because of the fact that Britain do not want to upset Mr. Faulkner. They are depending on votes for entry to the EEC. Promises are made. The whole community in the North are suffering. Adults and childern are suffering greatly in this terrible atmosphere. This will have a traumatic after-effect on them in later years. This is the harm which is being done. We must act quickly. We should apply pressure to end internment. The representatives of the minority are prevented from participating in and discussing the solution to the problems of the North.

We must emphasise the errors of the Provisionals and of the official IRA in their actions. If we do not do this, we may find ourselves involved in events over which we have no control. At the present time Parliament is losing prestige. We, as public representatives, are also losing prestige. This is a dangerous trend. We should be leading public opinion and telling the people that the glamour of the IRA is wrong and that the IRA are not helping the situation but damaging it. The news media should be doing this work instead of glamorising the escapades of the IRA in the North.

We in the South should be encouraging co-operation with our neighbours in the North. We should be endeavouring to make contact with them. In 1965 a Minister of the present Fianna Fáil Government came to me and spoke to me because I had business contacts in the North and he felt that I should not have them. I was surprised at his attitude. I was having a medical journal printed in the North which that man considered should not be done. The various associations of tenants, the residents' associations and the commercial associations should be establishing contacts with their counterparts in the North and inviting them down here. We should invite our counterparts down and show them that we have no illwill towards them. The ordinary people should be told to help in this way in order to establish closer contact with our Northern neighbours. Annual general meetings should be held in Belfast.

There is grave danger for the young people who are growing up in this terrible atmosphere. The traumatic after-effects are too awful to contemplate. The IRA should remember that what they are doing is causing irreparable harm to young people. The problems of the North will never be solved by their present approach. The British Army have not helped the situation over the past year. A year ago I was in the North and I was amazed at the hysteria there. I visited Unity Flats and saw the mass hysteria among the people. They told me that the Unionists were going to march past the Flats. I encouraged them to let them march and invite them into the Flats to see that they were normal people. Hysteria grips people and it becomes uncontrollable.

I saw people under the cloak of various organisations and it was obvious to me that they were fronts for military groups. Some of these people were clocked as clerics and priests. They were fronts for gunmen activities. I was depressed at what I saw. I asked these people to consider carefully what was happening. I talked to the soldiers in the North then and they did not know what had happened. They found themselves in a situation they would like to get out of. They were fearful. I saw Catholic people bringing the soldiers tea and sandwiches. These soldiers had no bitterness or animosity towards the Catholics then. When I spoke to them they were courteous and they praised the Catholics. Suddenly the situation changed. When the Labour Government went out of power there was definitely a change in attitude. This attitude came from the top and there definitely were one-sided searches and investigations. When I went up North again I found a gun against me and I was interrogated. This makes one bristle. There was a changed attitude. The soldiers altered their attitude towards the people. This new attitude has not helped the situation in the North. The minority in the North who wanted a peaceful life with their neighbours were thrown into the arms of the gunmen by virtue of the changed attitude of the British Army.

The problems of the North will not be solved by building another Berlin Wall or by moving in battalion after battalion. Such action would never solve the problems. Certainly that will never solve it. It is costing the British enough to subsidise the North and I cannot even imagine what it must be costing them for this armed State which now exists in the North. It is certainly an armed State. This will bring more bitterness in its wake. The SDLP have tried very hard in the face of such a difficult situation to be impartial and helpful and they have done everything to prevent violence and condemn it. They also tried to prevent the people from being too antagonistic to the British army. The British Government have tried the patience of the SDLP too far. They have made things very difficult for them. They have also made a laughing-stock of the regime operating there with no Opposition. It must appear ludicrous to the rest of the world when they look at this State in the North. I remember a discussion in which the Special Powers Act in the North was compared with the repressive legislation in South Africa. One jurist said that South Africa looked like the United State of America when the Special Powers Act in the North was taken into consideration.

Britain cannot say that she is a great exponent of freedom, democracy and people's rights as long as she tolerates this situation in the North. It was Britain who enforced the Special Powers Act in the North. For too long the British said the North was not their problem. They now recognise that it is their problem. They condoned and supported and initiated internment without trial. They are responsible for the position in the North of Ireland.

In any assessment of the present situation there are two factors which are of crucial importance and which need to be carefully borne in mind. First, there are the allegations which are made about the extent to which illegal activities in the North are generated from this part of the country, or allegedly assisted by illegal traffic in explosives, guns and ammunition across the Border. The fact is that the best information available to the Garda Síochána —and I have every reason to believe that it is accurate as it is borne out by the externally verifiable facts—is that virtually all those who are engaged in the current IRA campaign in the North are from the North itself.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister but I think it is disgraceful that there are no members of the Government Party in the House.

The Deputy is demanding a count?

I am.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

The Taoiseach referred to this fact this afternoon and the names and addresses of those who have been arrested in Northern Ireland, either to be charged or to be interned, I think, clearly bear out this fact. The checking by the Garda at this end also bears out the fact, that the sort of people who might be expected to partake in events in the North are, in fact, within our own jurisdiction. Moreover, the police view here is that the great bulk of the explosives, arms and other materials reaching the IRA in the North do not come from the South.

The second factor is the number of statements made by northern spokesmen which are clearly intended for consumption by certain elements of their own supporters and which are carefully couched in such terms that they are capable of being interpreted in more than one way. While statements of this kind may not on the face of it be at variance with the facts, they usually manage, either by suppressing certain facts or by placing undue emphasis on others, to suggest or convey an impression which is far removed from the truth. A good example of such a statement is the one recently made in Stormont by Mr. John Taylor to the effect that, out of a total of about three-quarters of a ton of explosives captured by the security forces in the North since April last, two-thirds or more originated in the South.

What Mr. Taylor omitted to mention was that there is, and there has been for several years, a substantial legitimate trade in explosives from here to the North, and that well over half the explosives used in the North for industrial and other legitimate purposes are, in fact, manufactured within our jurisdiction. It is perfectly clear, therefore, to anyone who is aware of this fact that, on the law of averages, it must be inevitable that the bulk of the explosives captured in the Six Counties by the Army or the police there, will appear to be of southern origin. I appreciate that Mr. Taylor is aware of this also and that catering for the extreme elements in his own party necessitates his juggling with the truth in this fashion.

The Minister would not know anything about that.

At the same time, this should clearly be placed on record because, reading English newspapers, one gets the impression, unfortunately, that the propaganda line put out in the Six Counties by the Administration there, and in particular by Mr. Faulkner and by Mr. Taylor, seems to have been swallowed to a great extent by quite a number but by no means all of those newspapers.

In particular I think the most regrettable piece of journalism I have seen on this whole Six County problem in recent months in any English newspaper, was the leading article in yesterday's Daily Telegraph which can only be described as so grossly untrue that it is a serious and horrible libel on this country and on the Government, and in particular on the civil servants who were picked out for some reason and against whom the most extraordinary allegations were made.

I should like to refer briefly to a question which Mr. Taylor was asked in the Stormont House of Commons on 12th October, 1971, and which is reported at column 1185 of the Official Report for that day, when Commander Anderson asked the Minister of Home Affairs what percentage of the quantity of gelignite estimated to have been used in explosions between the beginning of May and the introduction of internment came from the Republic of Ireland. In reply Mr. Taylor said that it was fair to assume that about 65 per cent of this gelignite used in explosions came from the Republic of Ireland and about 15 per cent more probably came from there.

It seems to me to be a remarkable achievement on Mr. Taylor's part that he is able to state the origin of a substance which by its very nature must be consumed, and entirely consumed, in the explosion itself. If Mr. Taylor is prepared to quantify so accurately matters such as this when he quite clearly can have no basis whatever for making that statement, I think it gives us a reasonable entitlement to doubt Mr. Taylor's accuracy on many of the other sweeping allegations that he makes.

I should like to contrast Mr. Taylor's obsession with the 26 Counties as an alleged base for activities by the IRA in the Six Counties with the views of a member of the British Government— indeed he might be described as the opposite number of Mr. Taylor in the British Government, as he is the Minister of State for Home Affairs at Westminister—Lord Windlesham. When he was speaking in the House of Lords debate on Thursday, 23rd September, 1971, on the Six County problem he said at column 134 of the Official Report for that day:

The frontier is far less well defined than many national boundaries. It was drawn up in 1920 along the lines of existing county boundaries and not for defensive purposes. It divides communities in a way that all frontiers do not. Hundreds of roads, countless tracks and even more footpaths cross it and they always did. Thousands of local people who cross it daily do so as part of their normal lives. It is estimated that terrorists may represent no more than one in something of the order of 10,000 crossings.

If I were to quibble with Lord Windlesham's figures it might be that he perhaps exaggerated the proportion slightly, and I would say that it might be one in 20,000 or 30,000 crossings, but certainly Lord Windlesham has a more accurate idea by far of the situation on the Border between the 26 and the Six Counties than Mr. Taylor. Notwithstanding that, we have the British Government agreeing to the ridiculous situation that we have seen over the past week or so with the utterly futile blowing up of these roads.

This is done apparently to satisfy Mr. Taylor and other persons of rather extreme views in the Unionist Party. No account seems to be taken of what harm will be done by this. There is no real assessment of whether any good can be achieved by it. It must be absolutely clear to anybody who knows anything about it, as it is clear there to Lord Windlesham, the Minister responsible for these matters in the British Government, that it was a completely futile gesture. The only purposes it serves is to placate these extremists and to cause grave inconvenience to local people.

In addition to that it unfortunately gives to people on either side of the Border who wish to escalate matters a glorious opportunity of doing so; and of all the foolish acts that the British Government or the Stormont administration could perpetuate at the present moment, this must be the most extreme one of all. Gross inconvenience is caused to local people. Nothing is achieved from the security point of view, and the local people, as one would anticipate, have, immediately after these craters have been blown, gone along and filled them in, as they are perfectly entitled to do and as they are perfectly right to do and as I hope they will continue to do.

Is that official Government policy?

The aspect that annoyed me is that the British Army are setting themselves up there as targets for people who want to avail of that opportunity. You have the situation where one group of extremists is playing into the hands of another group, and that is one of the great tragedies of the whole northern situation today, that you have extremists on one side, by resorting to violence, helping the extremists on the other. The greatest hindrance to unity in this country at the present time, in my opinion, is the IRA. By their resort to violence, they push back the day that we could see coming so much closer; every bullet they fire and every bomb they explode pushes back the ending of Partition further because it gives, in the eyes of the British people, a justification to Unionism; it gives them some grounds on which to seek to justify the sort of thing they have been going on with for 50 years and the sort of thing with which they wish to continue in the future.

Are they not drilling and arming here for the last two years and what have you done about it? They are strutting the streets with impunity.

Possibly it is not surprising because of the nature of the Border, which was pretty accurately described by the Minister of State for Home Affairs in Britain, Lord Windlesham, that there have been some incursions by British troops into this part of the country. However, the British Army, which is so clearly careless about its activities in the Border area, are bringing a great deal of trouble on their own heads.

The Taoiseach has referred to an incident which took place yesterday as a result of which a strong diplomatic protest has been made to the British Government. Since April of last year this is approximately the 40th incident —although admittedly they are not all of the same seriousness—where the fact of crossing the Border by British troops has been verified beyond any doubt. We have protested at this and will continue to protest in the strongest fashion that is open to us. The British Government must realise that their activities on the Border now are in fact only an incitement to the sort of people they themselves proclaim so strongly they want to put down.

I should like to say briefly a word or two about the position regarding gelignite. The controls on explosives, including the controls on the sale, custody and carriage of explosives are set out in our Explosives Acts and in several sets of regulations which have been made under those Acts. The law here relating to these explosives is virtually identical with the law in Britain because the basic Acts are the same. Some months ago I brought about a considerable tightening up of the control on explosives. Unfortunately, notwithstanding that, there have been a number of larcenies of explosives in this part of the country. I do not deny that, but the system which I introduced some months ago is not at fault. In some local instances there was not compliance for one reason or another with that system and that non-compliance, most regrettably, has resulted in a number of larcenies. In particular there was one very large larceny about which I am indeed very perturbed near Drogheda; but what I want to say is that if one could exclude that larceny from it which, unfortunately, was of very large dimensions, all the other larcenies in fact amount to about 1,000 pounds of gelignite which, in terms of explosives, is not a very great deal and on the basis of the amounts being used in recent months in the Six Counties, even if all of that 1,000 pounds had crossed the Border illegally, would not amount to more than a few days supply.

How many deaths does it represent?

The total amount, therefore, that has been stolen on this side of the Border, even if all of it were to get across the Border——

He has a Mercedes. He is all right.

——and it is by no means certain that is so, represents a quite insignificant portion of the total amount of explosives used improperly in Northern Ireland in the past six months or so.

Was the number of deaths insignificant?

No death, Deputy, is insignificant.

Then do not use the word "insignificant" in regard to gelignite.

That is why I have gone to such considerable trouble to try to clamp down to the very best of my ability and of the guards' ability on this.

(Interruptions.)

These interruptions must cease.

I have received many complaints from many people who are very seriously inconvenienced by this extremely strict control on the use of explosives. A great many people are very seriously inconvenienced. I have had to say to them that I am sorry but that I am sure they appreciate the reasons for these very strict controls. A good deal of work that might have been carried out has not been carried out. There are considerable delays now in carrying out work which entails explosives. I appreciate that this has caused very considerable inconvenience but I think that one has no option but to cause that inconvenience if it is the means of preventing deaths in Northern Ireland. That is the reason why we have done it.

With regard to the question of seizures of arms, explosives et cetera I should like to give the House the up-to-date figures as of yesterday for the period from August, 1969, to yesterday of arms, ammunition and so on that have been seized by the Garda from illegal organisations or in circumstances that would lead them to believe that they had been in the possession of illegal organisations. The total figures are 16 machine guns, 49 rifles, 56 pistols, four shotguns, 23,265 rounds of ammunition, 559½ lbs of gelignite, 49 grenades, 129 detonators and 20 coils of fuse.

Does that take into consideration what was seized at Cobh yesterday?

Would the Minister care to deal with what happened in Cobh?

All I can say about what happened in Cobh is that to the best of my knowledge seven rifles, two pistols, 6,458 rounds of ammunition and 37 grenades were seized by the Garda after they had been landed from a British registered ship and the Garda dealt very efficiently and effectively with them in the same way as they would seize any similar shipments coming into any other port or airport in this country. I think these figures are a great credit to the Garda Síochána because the amount of weapons,——

Hear, hear.

——ammunition and explosives and so on that have been seized is very considerable by any standards and absolutely gives the lie to this line that is sold in Northern Ireland and sold to British newspapers and to British public opinion about our allegedly allowing the 26 Counties to be used as a base or an armoury for the Six Counties.

Will the Minister tell me how many have been jailed? How many have gone to jail for it? Did you stop the guards from prosecuting them?

The Deputy may speak later. Will the Minister be allowed to make his own speech?

The next topic I want to refer to briefly is the question of extradition.

Will you tell us how many have been jailed?

Unfortunately it has to some extent come to a head again today. I want to make the position clear with regard to it in case there would be any misunderstanding. Among the accusations regularly made by northern spokesmen is that shelter is given here in the 26 Counties to what one might call IRA activists who left the North for one reason or another. What the British and the northern authorities know very well is that what is at issue here is whether there should be extradition for political offenders. However much one must condemn the persons responsible for the current campaign of violence—there is nobody who will condemn them or feel more strongly about them than I do—it is fairly certain that many of their offences would be held by any court, domestic or international, to be political offences and, in accordance with the terms of the European Convention on Extradition to which we and most European countries have subscribed, as well as in accordance with the terms of the Extradition Acts in force both here and in Britain, political offences are not extraditable. It is not just a matter of countries not being expected to extradite for these offences. The fact is that extradition for political offences is positively forbidden by the Convention, so that no matter how anxious we as a Government might be to extradite people who are or appear to be guilty of heinous crimes in the Six Counties, we are in fact forbidden not alone by our own law but by all international law which is the same basically, as far as these matters are concerned, in the extradition treaties between all civilised countries and is in accordance with the terms of the European Convention on Extradition.

I want to go somewhat further than that in explaining this matter because there are two steps at least with regard to extradition. When a warrant is received here from any police source outside the jurisdiction and the police here are asked to execute the warrant, the wanted person may, in accordance with the Act, apply to the Minister for Justice who if he is satisfied the offence is political has power to direct the Commissioner not to back the warrant. I want to say that though I have received some such applications on no occasion have I ever directed the Commissioner not to back a warrant. In fact, on every occasion on which such a warrant came to me, I have directed him to back it. So far as I know, although I cannot speak with personal knowledge of this, the same applies to each of my predecessors since the passing of the Extradition Act in 1965 or 1966. After that the police proceed to arrest a man if they know of his whereabouts and they then must, in accordance with the law of this country, bring him before a district justice and it is a matter there and then for a district justice to order his extradition. It goes without saying that neither the Garda, myself, nor the Attorney General have any control whatever over the decision of a district justice in a matter such as this or, indeed, in any other matter. Even if the district justice were to order his extradition he cannot be extradited for 21 days following that order. This is written into the Extradition Act and is to enable him to apply to the High Court for an order of habeas corpus if he desires. He must go through at least one court before he can be extradited, and if he chooses he can go through two courts.

Therefore, the possibility of persons being extradited from this part of the country for what seem on the face of it to be political crimes—however much we deplore them—is, unfortunately, not very great. I wish to make clear that on every occasion a warrant has come to me for backing I have directed that the Commissioner back it. That has been done and where it has been possible for the Garda Síochána to find the individual concerned they have arrested him and brought him before the district court. After that the matter is out of their hands, as it is out of my hands.

Another of the allegations frequently made by spokesmen in the North on security matters is that this side of the Border is used as a refuge for criminals fleeing after carrying out some armed outrage—usually an armed robbery on the other side of the Border. On the face of it the Border appears to be a very convenient route of escape for those who might wish to commit crimes in its vicinity. In a number of recent cases where the Garda subsequently, through taking statements from witnesses, have been able to trace the movements of the perpetrators of these crimes we have discovered that in almost every case where a crime of this type is committed on the northern side of the Border by people from the northern side they come into the South. There they dispose of whatever vehicle they used in the course of the crime, they get into another vehicle and head straight back across the Border.

We have had a clear example of that in the last week or so where an armed bank robbery was carried out in the town of Aughnacloy, County Tyrone. The Garda were informed 20 or 25 minutes later that the armed raiders had crossed the Border. They immediately set up road blocks, they put patrols into that area and within ten or 15 minutes they found the car that had been used by the raiders. It had been dumped and was on fire some miles on this side of the Border. They did not find the raiders but subsequently they discovered from statements made to them by civilians living on our side of the Border that at a precise point in time, which was the exact time the Garda were informed about the event, the raiders had recrossed the Border and had gone into Northern Ireland by another route.

This has happened time and again. In fact, it seems to occur in the majority of these type of cases. I mention this fact and I give the example of what happened in the aftermath of a raid on a bank at Aughnacloy to show Members of the House that there is no substance in the allegation that this side of the Border is being used as a haven. In case Mr. Taylor or anyone else should think this is all one-way traffic, unfortunately I could give them several instances where there were armed raids in County Donegal during the year, where the persons who carried out these acts were from the other side of the Border. They returned across the Border immediately they carried out the crime on this side of the Border.

Some of them even walked across the Border when their car broke down.

I have dealt with all the points I wish to deal with on this matter. The main point I wish to get across to the House and to the people of the country, North and South, is the determination of the Government to see that activity on this side of the Border is not contributing in any significant way to the unfortunate and tragic happenings on the other side. We are doing all in our power to prevent anything on this side contributing in any way to what is happening on the other side. I should not be realistic if I were to say that no assistance whatever is given. Obviously some marginal assistance is given on isolated occasions but I am saying—and the facts bear this out clearly—that no significant assistance has been given, or will be given, to the horrible happenings in the Six Counties from persons based in, or operating from, the 26 Counties.

We have passed the half-way stage in this debate. I had not intended to intervene but I find myself only the second person from a Border county who has spoken, the previous speaker being the Minister for Social Welfare. First I should like to define my approach to the Border and my history in relation to it.

I am a member of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and for the last 16 years I have gone to the North of Ireland to speak at our demonstrations. I believe the Order's line of friendship, unity and true Christian charity is the proper approach to achieve the ending of the Border. I have friends among the members of the Order and I have friendships also with many Nationalist politicians: with John Hume, Austin Currie, Ivan Cooper, Michael Keogh and with many others.

I live 30 miles from the Border and I have business and family connections across the Border. I know the kind of place the North of Ireland is. I speak as a person who has the greatest friendship with many Unionist people. I was a friend of the late George Forrest, MP, and I might add that on his death Miss Bernadette Devlin was elected in his place. Mr. Forrest was with me on the Irish shooting team as far back as 15 years ago in Scotland. I have been a great friend of the late Ernie Strathdee, who was scrum half on the Irish rugby team for many years. I am a friend of Jack Siggins, captain of an Irish rugby team who won the Triple Crown many years ago, and he is a constant visitor to my house. Therefore, I speak as one who has many friends on the Nationalist and Unionist sides in Northern Ireland and I reside near Northern Ireland.

The Minister for Justice has said that they thought prior to the start of this trouble that the day of union was coming closer but I cannot share that view. I do not make this remark in criticism of the Minister, because I do not think this debate should be marked by criticism but by a constructive approach. There was an uneasy peace from that day in 1920 when the Government of Ireland Act was introduced. I believe that was so from my own experiences and my own beliefs. The fact that there was such an uneasy peace and that there was such a determination on both the Nationalist and the Unionist sides not to move from their taken-up positions is instanced by the extremely high polls which were recorded in each election in Northern Ireland and in each constituency over that period. A Catholic businessman in Northern Ireland recently completed a very large job, the nature of which I will not say because I do not want to name the man in question, in the Republic and in the course of that I was in conversation with him. I asked him if he were on business on the Continent of Europe or on holidays in some place like South Africa and an election was being held in Northern Ireland would he have to come home and vote. He said: "Paddy, if I did not come home and vote I could not stand up in my own parish ever again". If the Members of this House, who have to drag people out to vote here could realise the situation up there, where on both sides the determination to vote is such that people will go to that expense and that effort to record their votes, they would realise the entrenched positions of both sides.

I say, as a matter of fact, that this Government in their operation in Northern Ireland suffered extraordinarily from the aftermath of the Arms Trial and the difficulties within their own party. I will move from that immediately I have said it. I have recorded it merely as a fact but having said that I would like to advert to a file given to me by the Department of External Affairs in 1969 when I was a substitute on the political committee of the Council of Europe when the member of that committee was the then Deputy Seán MacEntee. He was indisposed and it fell on me to make a speech at that political committee in Copenhagen. In that file on Northern Ireland, which was given to me so that I could make a speech which was proper and correct, there emerged certain figures. From my memory I quote one. In the County of Fermanagh there was a 53 per cent Catholic population. In that county 2 per cent of the jobs in local authorities above the level of roadworker are enjoyed by Catholics.

The position on housing and on jobbery has not even to be examined to be proved. In Cookstown it has never been known for a Nationalist to get a job sweeping the roads or any job that came from Government sources. That is why I say that the peace which existed was an uneasy one. We who feel—there are people who feel otherwise—there is nothing in violence know that the road ahead is a long one. I concur with the Minister for Justice when he says that the people who now think that through violence they have brought the day nearer, have in fact extended that long road ahead. No matter how much we feel disgruntled, shocked and perhaps angered by actions taken by the Administration in Stormont or by any of their agents, the fact is that violence merely lengthens that road ahead.

Everybody must, therefore, look at the situation and ask where are the remedies. I listened to Deputy Pat Cooney of my party making what I regarded as a brilliant speech but I disagree with one thing he said. This debate is serious enough to mean that we in a party can in friendship disagree and say so and proceed along our own line. I believe there is no hope of acceptance of direct rule from Westminister even if it is only for an interim period. I believe there is nothing on now except the reforms that were spoken of and which in fact have not been implemented; these should now be implemented and extended. I believe there are quite good reasons why those reforms were not implemented. It is quite difficult to get reforms when a state of anarchy exists in a State and it is quite difficult to get things done when at the same moment factories are being burned down. I lay the blame for that at no door because there is no value within this House or any other House in laying blame at this stage.

Reforms are needed. I want in my brief remarks to point to the situation on jobbery which exists, the situation on housing which exists and the situation on the development of Northern Ireland which exists. Is it not true that the city of Craigavon, the new industrial structure which is to employ so many, will employ, because of the nature of the population around there, in Portadown and other places, largely a Unionist body of people? Is it not true that Newry, my nearest town in Northern Ireland, which has largely a Nationalist population did not in fact get its share of these advanced factories and industries which the Government of Northern Ireland have been setting up during the last ten years?

I do not want to labour on all that is wrong. I want to talk instead about reforms. I want to put to this House, to the people in Northern Ireland, my friends in the Unionist group and my friends in the Nationalist group, that the cost to Britain of maintaining an army in Northern Ireland is astronomical. Nobody has counted the cost yet. The cost of malicious injuries claims is also astronomical. If Ted Health has set the sails of Morning Cloud then the situation is that ahead of Britain there is an expenditure that could mean not hundreds but thousands of millions of pounds. On top of that must be added the fact that all over the world today, where boards of directors are deciding where they will go with their factories to get within the market of the European Economic Community, which is to be three-fourths the size of the market of the United States, they are quietly saying: “We will not go to Ireland.”

We can add to that first loss, the loss in development not only for the people in Northern Ireland but the people in Southern Ireland by these decisions which are being made and we will see that this will reach an astronomical figure. Is it not sensible to suggest that the reforms which were mooted should in fact be expanded and extended to such a degree that Britain would show by the money she was spending in Northern Ireland that the Nationalist minority had a chance of getting jobs and a chance of getting houses?

Having said that, I want to say that the road will be long. There is a very simple reason why it must be long. If, as I said, all the jobs in the local authority in County Fermanagh above the level of roadworker are held by the Unionist majority—more than 50 per cent of the population is Nationalist— and if one wants to change that imbalance in the next five to ten years one ill need to employ in all the high level jobs nothing but members of the Nationalist population. As a Nationalist south of the Border I say that would be totally unacceptable to everybody. Surely Unionist boys and girls leaving school are entitled to a chance. That is why I say it is not a two year, a five year or a ten year job; it is in the order of a 30 year job. It can only be speeded up by money and good faith.

I now appeal to the Government of Westminister. After all, they are the people with the purse strings; they are the people who can produce the money as an earnest of good faith to accelerate the reforms and put before the Nationalist members of the SDLP and others in opposition in the North their enlarged and extended proposals. They will have to spend the money anyway. Is it not better to spend it in that way rather than have the people there in a state of anarchy, with snipers shooting down British soldiers, soldiers who could not care less, soldiers who joined the army because they had not a job or were wild young fellows from Gloucester or elsewhere and Northern Ireland might have been their destination or it might have been anywhere else across the globe?

The Taoiseach today adverted to the situation in the Army and the Garda Síochána. I was in Kildare during the by-election and my political charge included the Curragh Camp. I was appalled at the situation. If one wanted to exaggerate a little one could say they had no polish to polish their boots. We have allowed our Army to run down, and that for duties of all descriptions, and we do not know what duties there might be for that Army in the very near future in order to ensure that there is no civil commotion and that people can rest easy in their beds. We should not have allowed our Army to run down. Blame for this policy can be fairly levelled at the Government in power.

The Garda are below strength. This is the result of deliberate Government policy. On many occasions questions have been asked here about the closing down of Garda stations and the introduction of rationalisation designed specifically to reduce numbers. These are the things I find wrong. I do not mention them for the purpose of any advantage. The Government are suffering as a result of the aftermath of the Arms Trial and the involvement of some of their senior members. They are suffering as a result of deliberate policy which allowed the Army to run down and they are suffering as a result of deliberate policy which allowed the Garda Síochána to run down.

I want to end by extending a sincere expression of friendship to all the decent Unionists I know. Their name is legion. I want to extend a sincere expression of friendship also to all the decent Nationalists I know. Their name is legion. All these people want to do is to rear their families in decency in whatever faith they subscribe to and in a country in which there is an equal opportunity for all. I know all about the entrenched positions. I have tried to explain them as one who lives beside the area in which they exist. All we can give them is friendship. If Westminister will provide the huge sum of money required and if Stormont and Westminister are prepared to take in the Opposition leaders in the North and let reforms be seen to be done then there is some hope in the foreseeable future for a happy and united Ireland.

I had hoped to speak tomorrow morning but a sudden brevity seems to have become the form of expression. Possibly the problem is one that can be dealt with by speaking briefly on it rather than by dealing with it at length. I just do not know. Certainly we will, I think, have a great deal of practice in talking about this problem in the coming months because the problem will be with us for many years, not perhaps in its present intensified form but certainly in a form that will attract the interest of journalists.

The problem will continue with an intensity which must influence politics on this side of the Border into the foreseeable future.

It was interesting to hear the Minister for Justice concentrate on Mr. John Taylor, the Junior Minister for Home Affairs in the North. There is a good deal of similarity between these men. Both have characteristics in common. It was interesting to hear the Minister for Justice speak about security. He is, I believe, a Minister for Justice who presides over the most disaffected police force in the history of this State. It was interesting to hear him speak about security. Perhaps the Taoiseach will tell us when he sums up what figures the Minister for Justice relied on when he told us that Lord Windlesham's figure of one in 20,000 Border crossings being of an illegal nature was a little too high. I would be interested to know on exactly what figures the Minister for Justice based his calculation of such crossings.

This discussion on the North will be commented on by newspapers in the Republic. Possibly editorials will comment that nothing original was said. This monotony of speech may be contrasted with a certain cleanness of approach in other quarters. Speaking about the problem seems a supine approach when numbers of men are out risking their lives, as we are told. The contrast is such as to demand admiration for the clean action and nothing but criticism for the monotonous speech. However, the probable solution is one that will call for yet more monotonous speeches and I think the solution lies in monotonous speech and arduous examination.

The Taoiseach has certainly had the monopoly of monotonous speeches since the adjournment debate in August. At that time the Taoiseach said the country was in the very best of hands. Those were his parting words. It was one of his better sick jokes. He has excelled in that type of humour over the past two years, but that was possibly the best we had from him so far. He told Deputies to go home, not to their well-earned vacation but to a kind of bliss he would not enjoy. We have had two Taoiseachs since that adjournment debate. We had the Taoiseach of hope and optimism, the Taoiseach of the Irish Press editorials up to Chequers. After Chequers we had a Taoiseach who recognised someone whom he called the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland. A week before Chequers the same Prime Minister of Northern Ireland was the leader of the Unionist majority. We warned the Taoiseach in the adjournment debate in August not to give substance to any ideas that something extraordinary could be gained at Chequers. He, of course, dismissed these warnings. We warned him to prepare the Irish public for the reality of the result of Chequers. Instead, we have a Taoiseach who, before Chequers, rivalled the Irish Press editorials in spurious pronunciamentos when dealing with the whole Northern question and I mean the Irish Press because the Irish Press will be looking at us and we will be looking at them. It is fair comment and not a move towards censorship of the Press for somebody in this privileged Assembly to say what he thinks of Press comment on this most serious problem. We can say of the Irish Press that it is the paper of the Provisionals. In fact, there is no need for any specific Provisional newspaper. The Irish Press fulfils that function daily with dazed admiration and written comment by this or that journalist on his daily tranced journeying through Belfast.

We have in this House a Deputy who is associated with that newspaper and that particular Deputy was very disturbed when the rules of order and decorum of the House were upset. Yet his newspaper speaks out daily in favour of this so-called war that is going on in the Six Counties.

Would the Deputy quote what he is talking about?

I do not have the trolley that would be required to bring in the monotonous editorials of the Irish Press since last August. They are so much of a kind that it would be difficult to distinguish one from the other: for instance “the war must go on...”

The Deputy might at least substantiate what he is saying by one quotation.

I would recommend the Deputy to visit the Library where he can read all the nauseating matter. I am glad to hear that the discriminating sense of the public is such that the readership of that rag is dwindling week by week. Time has discovered the liberals who run the Irish Press, these liberals who talk eternally about Vatican II. We see daily the trash that is contained in their editorials, the adolescent sick admiration for militaristic tactics together with selective photographs and accounts.

This Government should be involved in the serious matter of educating the 26 County public on the realities of the northern situation. How do they go about that? Deputy Gerry Collins, the member for Limerick west who glories in the post of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs as a result of the disappearance of more senior members of the Government some time before, deals with the matter in this way: under the Broadcasting Act he tells Telefís Éireann that they must not interview these dangerous men, these people who advocate modes of settlement of the northern problem which do not tally with the Government's declared policy. Of course the lawfully elected Government on this side of the Border, if they really wish to assume the task of educating public opinion here on authentic and honest ways of attempting to settle the northern problem, must understand that you win in such a debate by arguing, by putting forward your objections to their, both IRAs, very often unstated objectives. There is a reluctance on the part of those who favour the gun in the northern problem to discuss the steps by which ultimate unity might be achieved. There is a fondness on their part for the keenness of action rather than the complication of argument. The Government do not take the correct approach on this matter. They are not fulfilling their obligations to educate 26 County opinion which in the past, from those benches, has been fed this very dangerous material on how the problem was to be settled. They do not fulfil their functions in this respect by simply invoking the terms of the Broadcasting Act. If the representatives of these groups were faced by people who believed in their own peaceful method of approach to the problem and who were prepared to defend the method of that approach, the 26 County public would be properly apprised of the real difference between those who advocate physical force and those who advocate the contrary approach. However, the Government have been evading that task.

My main fault with the Taoiseach is that while he is committed officially to a general policy of peace on the northern question, he has never followed in every speech he has made or in every act he has committed, the full implications of that policy. Certainly he has evaded the central task of a Government here to educate public opinion on the realities of the situation. The Taoiseach should not let even one opportunity pass of explaining to our people here that, far from advancing unity and far from bringing the two communities in the North together, those who suggest more arms in the area or who support that policy in any way, are not contributing at all to settling the problem.

It was interesting today to note how quickly the Taoiseach was able to repeat the story that the arms which had been held in Holland were, in fact, destined for West Africa. I was not aware that the Taoiseach could accept so readily a statement which emanated, I understand, from Prague and the airport authority. I am surprised that we have seen the day when a Fianna Fáil Taoiseach could accept the word of the airport authorities in Schipol or could accept so readily the innocence of any Communist Government. It is interesting to note the kind of gripping fear that is growing even on this side of the Border when speaking of people who advocate a solution based on the use of the gun. As Deputy Cooney said earlier, there is the attitude that it is better not to say anything about such people. Once we give in to the temptation of thinking that it might be safer to ignore the warning signs to our democracy on this side of the Border, we are lost.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

It is remarkable that during the past four days there has not been even one editorial in any of our national newspapers on the Czech arms deal. This is all the more remarkable when one remembers that the Press are so jealous of their freedom of speech, are so often critical of the kind of debate that goes on here, and who, in my biassed way of looking at it, are so harsh in criticising the failings of the Opposition but so charitable in speaking of the positive virtues of the Government. I wonder whether it is part of that kind of nauseating fear which is spreading that we had better not comment on such matters. There has been no lengthy comment in any of our papers on this murderous cargo from freedom-loving Czechoslovakia on behalf of freedom in Northern Ireland. All of the British and most of the European papers have commented on the matter but why have our own newspapers not done so? Naturally, we would not look to the Irish Press for comment—better ignore where these arms came from. The next comment we are likely to hear is that it is extraordinary to find a communist power handing guns to the Provisionals who we understood to be blessed by Church and State in the purity of their cause—a cause that never has been tainted by socialism. Is it not extraordinary to find a Czech communist Government handing over bazookas and guns to these defenders of the republican faith?

But they were paid for it and probably with money from Irish banks.

Worst of all, they were paid for perhaps outside our churches by worshippers on this side of the Border during the past two months. I would ask these Christians what they think of the connection between the shilling they gave and the guns bought to shoot Irish Protestants in Northern Ireland. Last Friday the Provisional sources admitted that they were responsible for the arms. Joe Cahill, according to the Daily Telegraph, announced that the Provisionals were already on the Continent for the purpose of purchasing arms. By such statements it is clear that Provisional spokesmen already speak with the authority of a sovereign power. He was telling them that their men were on the Continent buying those arms. Certainly, when the news of the arms shipment first broke Provisional sources admitted that those were the arms which, in fact, they had ordered and now——

I never heard that menmentioned in that context.

I am interested in knowing what the Deputy did not hear.

The Dutch who were dealing with it say they do not know. I do not know what country the arms were consigned to. The Deputy seems to know where they were consigned to and I think he has an obligation to the House to state the country to which the arms were consigned. The Deputy is making vague allegations which he is unable to support.

I was remarking that I had read reports from the Provisional—I think that is what they call themselves—IRA sources that those arms were destined for them. Where they intended to use them, I do not know. Perhaps they intended to use them in West Africa. They may have a liberation struggle on there. Most certainly, they did admit their connection with those arms. They deny it now.

The Deputy is making very tall statements under the privilege of this House.

(Cavan): You are very sensitive about arms over there.

There are more than 12,000 British soldiers in the North. Did they go in without any arms?

The Deputy should give us the source of his information as to where the arms were consigned.

I am surprised to find Deputies opposite so sensitive that the Provisionals should be obtaining arms from a communist country. I am surprised to see any sensitivity on this matter.

(Interruptions.)

I do not know how many of you gave cash for these transactions.

Interruptions are not in order.

If Deputy Carter's comments were in connection with collecting cash for the Provisional IRA——

Quote your sources.

The Deputy is trying to impress the House.

Deputy O'Leary is not seriously suggesting that Deputy Carter collected cash?

(Interruptions.)

I am suggesting that, perhaps, Deputy Carter is aware in his district of several good Christians in good standing with their local churches who contributed cash which finally went to buy Czench bazookas to murder Irish Protestants in Northern Ireland and I understand his indignation here tonight, that he should realise now the error of the ways of people whom, in fact, he has helped.

The Deputy should be at least realistic and somewhat accurate because the Deputy to my mind is talking nonsense.

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion and he may, in fact, be right. This is a risk which every one of us takes in standing up here.

Deputy O'Leary without interruption.

I understand that Deputies like Deputy Carter who have ample time sitting on their behinds and listening to the comments of those of us who have to get up very frequently here should be good judges of nonsense and otherwise.

Quote your sources.

Could we get back to the motion?

To get back to the Taoiseach, I do not believe the Taoiseach has, in fact, been living up to the full implications of his peace policy. If he has an argument, if he dislikes the methods of either of the IRAs, then he and his Ministers should not be afraid to argue their case with these people. His Government, in fact, are selling the democratic pass by simply thinking that they fulfil their duty by invoking the sections of the Broadcasting Act to get these people off the air on Telefís Éireann. No Member of this House, whatever his party, should be afraid of arguing out the democratic implications of the position of this House with any of these self-appointed saviours of the Irish people.

I note the silence of the Press on the Czech arms deal here. I note in the country a general feeling that the less said in criticism of people who may, in fact, be patriots in the northern part of our country, the less said about their methods in this part of the country or, in fact, in the North, the better for the good of one's political self or of one's party. I am saying that if the Members of this House, of any party, succumb to this temptation of silence when they know that things undemocratic or wrong are going ahead, either in the name of history or some other mythical thing, but certainly in the name of something that has nothing to do with the will of the people or for which there is no mandate from them, so much will democracy be endangered. I note it already in sections of our national Press. I note it in The Irish Press that fulfils the function of being the Provisional mouthpiece over the past few months and, perhaps, over the next few months, and all we can depend on is the good sense of the Irish people who are deserting it as readers in large numbers each day.

I can say this of the Taoiseach's diplomatic labours over the past two months, and this may be considered a biassed view, that he in the period of approach up to Chequers strikes me as one observer as always being more interested in the status and prestige of his own seat at the discussion table than in any real changes that perhaps could be gained for the benefit of the northern minority or for the benefit of the whole northern region. In his single-minded pursuit—I grant him this—of his own political advantage and that of his party, or that section of that party which is still with him, to some extent he misled elements of the Northern Opposition and to some extent their subordination at Chequers to this objective of his of replacing the Northern Opposition was essential to that claim of his actually to be involved in changes confined to the northern area. Throughout, you remember, this remained the primary objective of the Taoiseach. The primary objective remained. This is my reading of the events up to Chequers. All political activity was concentrated on the area of securing from the British a general declaration of intent on Irish unity and any concessions or changes that could be got now were not seen as being quite as essential as the necessity of that declaration being made by the British Tory Government. This it appears to me was the primary objective of the Taoiseach. That objective is not unrelated to an election in the Twenty-six Counties. It strikes me, as an observer, that that factor weighed heavily in the Taoiseach's mind also in the events coming up to Chequers.

I sympathise with him that such a matter should influence him. We are all politicians here and the Taoiseach leads a badly disunited party. The Taoiseach needs a miracle. He knows that. Most of you know that. The tragedy is that people in a very real and horrible situation in the North of Ireland should be made the kettledrum of the political party fortunes of the Government here in the Twenty-six Counties. Of course, this has always remained a permanent feature of Fianna Fáil policy on the North. The North has always been the essential formula for beating in the votes in these elections and that party opposite has been the handball alley against which they have banged their arguments in suggesting that here is the pro-Treaty party and here is the Republican Party. In between is the dumb middle, the Northern people.

(Interruptions.)

So deep is their concern with 26-county politics and their own constituencies that even when the argument strays a little beyond the Border they wish to bring it back to home, to the reality as far as that party is concerned. In the dumb middle there are the Northern people and their problems. That has been the formula in the past and that has been the formula under Taoiseach Lynch so far as he could bring about that situation. To some extent, either through lack of knowledge of 26-county politics or as a result of the horrible dilemma in which they were placed by tragic events he had the co-operation of sections of the Northern Opposition.

They have now paid dearly for that subordination of their objective to get real change in the area and dearly have they paid for the fact that they subordinated that objective of theirs to 26 County political considerations of a Taoiseach in political trouble in Dublin. They should have known what happened to the Nationalist Party before now which went the way of all flesh because it took its orders from Dublin.

We warned the Taoiseach in August about the necessity of not pitching hopes too high in Chequers but he did the contrary and after Chequers he came back with that abject pronouncement that he was now regarded as "important". I am sure other speakers will refer to that during the debate.

(Cavan): Deputy O'Leary should not be making Deputy Blaney laugh.

I notice no Deputy asks me for the authority for that. Peace is what this debate is all about and peace is a most difficult thing to obtain.

The Deputy has not contributed much to peace so far.

If we string all the the Deputy's interruptions——

If that is the Deputy's contribution to peace he can think again.

The Deputy may criticise it later in the debate. Peace and how we get it is what this debate is all about. Some say that if the British Army were to depart we would get peace but no one in his right senses believes that. If every British soldier left the North tomorrow morning it would not change one iota of either of the IRA's armed programmes in the North or any of the feelings of the majority or minority about each other. The divisions which exist between them will not disappear because the British Army go away.

The biggest problem lying in the way of peace is the matter of internment without trial. This is the single issue which blocks the minority elected representatives from getting round the table and beating out a political solution. The whole tragedy of this situation is that the British Tory Government rely more and more on the judgment of the Unionist Government in the area for all major political decisions. Internment without trial was obviously brought about on the advice of Mr. Faulkner and it now lies in the way of any meaningful talks. The only contribution which this Government can make is how we can get these people round the table and get talks going once more. If the Unionists had set out—and they may have set out with this end in view, we do not know —to achieve a formula which would displace the elected representatives of the minority from leadership of the minority they could not have hit upon a better formula than internment without trial. Every day of internment without trial which passes gives the leadership of the minority in the 6-county area more securely to self-appointed leaders of the IRA and takes that leadership from the elected representatives. Perhaps it remains a Unionist plan to remove elected leaders from the political landscape, I do not know. One certain thing is that nothing meaningful can be done in the matter of achieving peace until internment without trial is removed as an obstacle to the achievement of negotiations.

I should like the Taoiseach to answer this question when he is winding up the debate: was he at any stage aware of the possibility of internment without trial in Northern Ireland, whether he was consulted, prior to its introduction, whether his Ambassador in London was consulted, whether at any official level known to him the attitude of the Dublin Government was requested on the repercussions in the South of the introduction of internment without trial?

At present we have a debate once a month on the EEC, which is one pressing problem, but another pressing problem is this northern question. It varies in intensity from week to week, and I would ask that some opportunity be given on a regular basis to discuss the North so that this House could be kept in touch with the changing position, because it certainly is a changing position. It would be ridiculous in the normal course of events to find ourselves with another opportunity to discuss this national tragedy only at Christmas.

The Members of my party, from our own slender resources, strained ourselves to the utmost during the summer months in making contacts in Europe and in Britain in order to propagate a true appreciation of the elements which constitute the northern problem. We have set our faces resolutely against any temptation to appeal solely to 26-county Nationalist opinion on the northern question. If our advocacy of a peaceful solution to this problem means that we make enemies with vested nationalist interests down here then we shall make those enemies.

The sense of disappointment one feels about this Taoiseach is that he has never understood the North; he has never taken the trouble to try to learn about the North; he does not show by his demeanour in this House that he understands the full implications of the events unfolding in the North; he has never in fact attempted to get a real national debate proceeding on the North either in this House or elsewhere. I hope the Taoiseach will attempt to live up to the full implications of his peace policy, will keep this House informed, will bring this House into the forefront of discussions on the North and will ensure that this House is seen to be one that attempts to lead 26-county public opinion on the matter. The more we talk about the real facts of the northern tragedy the nearer we bring the possibility at some stage, at any rate, of a peaceful solution.

At Government level the Taoiseach should continue his work to get the British Government to realise the full enormity of the blunder of internment without trial, because enormous blunder it was. He should not attempt to supplant northern representatives but rather to complement their efforts towards meaningful discussions. The Taoiseach's task is to do all in his power to see that real discussions take place. Real discussions can only take place with those people living in the area because they are the people who must live with the eventual solution. The Taoiseach must not either allow this 26-county obsession for unity—all of us can say we are on the side of unity but all of us know that it is not "on" at present—to impede him in the constructive contribution which he could make from Dublin towards real political change in the area, or allow this obsession to come between him and meaningful discussion with the British Tory Government. The internment issue must be cleared if these talks are to take place. I would appeal to the northern Opposition not to put their trust in either Stormont or in a Dublin Fianna Fáil Taoiseach.

I have listened to a number of the speeches, not least of which was the Taoiseach's speech, tonight and while I hear others talk of what they have taken from it, unless on a further full detailed study of it I find otherwise, I must say I did not get very much from that speech that clarified in any way what the outlook is in the Government today for the future in relation to Partition and to the violence and trouble that exist today in the Six Counties. I may have missed some of the points but I feel confusion has been further confounded and in the follow-up of that particular speech by Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Corish, while all three leaders in the overall would appear to have some common policy in regard to the Six Counties, what that common policy is eludes me. The public, North and South, are not being well served by any of the three leaders in their speeches tonight in that nothing has been clarified but if anything the position has been further obscured and confused in regard to the policy of this Parliament.

I was very taken with one point that emerged late in Deputy Cosgrave's speech when he said very definitely and categorically that one aspect of his party's policy now is and I think he said always was—I am not sure about "always"—in regard to the Six Counties, that there should be a planned withdrawal of the British Army and all that goes with it. I have been saying this for the past two or three years among other things and all I got for my pains was the description of trouble-maker and I was rapped in this House by the Opposition and by the Government and was generally described as a man of violence. For warning this House over the past three years of what was coming and is now taking place I have been branded on all sides as a man either creating violence and encouraging it or as a man of violence myself.

In November, 1968, I made one—not my first by any means—speech on Partition and the troubles related to it. It was one of the first speeches that the Press in their wisdom took up and made into great headlines. Perhaps headlines were scarce at the time or, perhaps, they had not taken any notice of any of my speeches on Partition down the years. They really picked on this one which expressed then for the benefit of Members of the House and the public as a whole my view as to the trouble that was then emerging in the Six Counties. I made that speech in Letterkenny in November. I made a later one also in Letterkenny, as will probably be recalled. This was in 1968 shortly after the October 5th march of the Civil Rights people in Derry, the march that could be said to have begun it all. This march is being praised tonight because the Civil Rights people in their outlook and attitude have been praised by various speakers, and rightly so, but for the wrong reasons. They are being praised here as the people who have the right outlook, the people as Deputy O'Higgins said, who are bringing about achievements, although he did not mention what those achievements were without the gun and without violence.

Could we go back to 1968, or even to 1967 when the whole Civil Rights movement as a recognisable organisation began to emerge and realise that it was the marches brought about by that organisation that were the precursor or initiator of the trend of events that ultimately exploded in violence in the Six Counties and which has continued to explode, literally and metaphorically, ever since in violence followed by further violence. I predict it will be followed by further and greater violence unless we wake up to the consequences of preaching peaceful means as a policy and trying to make it appear that those who do not agree with that kind of phraseology are preaching violence as an alternative. The Civil Rights people on 5th October in Derry held that march and held it, as I understand it, against the wishes of the overall Civil Rights organisation. The decision was taken by an overwhelming number of Derry people who were at that particular meeting which was about to call off the march on the previous night, 4th October. Among them was a visitor whom I think we have here tonight, a representative, Mr. Cooke, MP. He was there and he was at that first march on 5th October. So also was another man with whom I may not agree—I know he does not agree with me—McCann from Derry. Those are two names about which we have heard much in recent years. They were in that first march. John Hume was not, as far as I know, even a member of the Civil Rights Organisation on 5th October. I think it was on 9th October he became vice-chairman on his initiation into the Civil Rights Association. These are only trivia but the fact is that you can date the present trend of violence from 5th October, from the activities of the Civil Rights Association seeking by peaceful demonstrations to bring about the reforms that people here and elsewhere so much desire in the Six Counties.

The Deputy's own speeches at that time did not favour them very much.

Do not misunderstand me. Let me carry on in my own way and I will bring the Deputy back to the logic of those speeches which, as the Deputy says, would not appear to favour those people very much at that time.

They did not think so in any case.

Very well. I did not criticise one or the other of them over the years and I shall refrain, even under provocation from Deputy O'Leary and others, from criticising any of the representatives of the minority in the Six Counties now or at any time regardless of whether they criticise or agree with me on how I feel about their part of the country, their outlook or policy. I shall not criticise them and I am not doing so now: all I say is that there is a great deal of confusion in the House and as a result of this being peddled in this House there is great and continuing confusion in the minds of the public who are being led to believe that peaceful means can only have one significance and that is that the minority cease defending themselves, cease defending themselves by violent means, and even cease defending themselves by going over to the attack. They must do this according to what we are told in order that we can get to a point where reforms can take place and Stormont can be made to work by getting the SDLP to go back into it.

We heard this pronouncement only a few months ago: there is nothing for it but the abolition of Stormont. Now, only a short while afterwards we hear that there is only one thing for it and that is to get the SDLP back in there so that Stormont can work and bring about reforms that will be forced on it by Mr. Heath and his Conservative Government. We also hear that there could and should be a continuation of the operations of organisations such as the Civil Rights movement, civil disobedience, passive resistance and so on. Have we all gone crackers to believe that you can persist in civil disobedience, in civil rights protests or passive resistance, that you can really push those to the limit of making them effective without bringing upon your head from the forces of the Crown in the Six Counties the violence that in turn must be contested by violence and has been so contested by violence from the minority? Those who stood in when there was little protection for the minority back in 1969 are the people who are standing in today and who are being condemned roundly by so many. We who are condemning them today are the people who wished them into existence less than two years ago. How many of you today condemn the violence and the violent men and the gunmen in the Six Counties who were not openly at that time two years ago asking: "Where are the IRA?" How many of you asked that? How many of you asked it in August '69?

Nobody on these benches. You talk for nobody but yourself. Speak for your own party.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy should not get sore. If the cap does not fit he need not put it on his head. I am asking all of the people in this House and outside it——

If the Deputy will permit the Chair to intervene, the motion before the House is by agreement withdrawn and will be re-introduced tomorrow morning.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday 21st October, 1971.
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