Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Dec 1971

Vol. 257 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 37: Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.
—(Deputy Creed).

When I reported progress last week I was referring to the very serious problem which faces the agricultural community and which has been referred to in very strong terms by the farming community in general. It is the need for very substantial increased State investment in agriculture. There should be no doubt in the mind of the Minister that whatever statistics he may consult or whatever statistics are allowed to flow freely from the printing press of Merrion Street this type of propaganda will not convince the farmers that they are in a period of unprecedented properity.

Those of us who represent constituencies in rural Ireland know that the one serious difficulty that faces the people today, particularly small farmers, is the lack of capital. The Minister will naturally quote statistics from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and other financial authorities which indicate that they are prepared to give, and have given, increased financial assistance to those engaged in agriculture. Perhaps substantial loans have been advanced to individual farmers but my plea is based on the experience which I have had as a Deputy and my experience in my professional capacity. Lack of credit is the most serious problem which faces these people. The Agricultural Credit Corporation have performed a very excellent service but they have only been scratching the surface.

If it is the intention to equip our farmers for EEC entry then they should be fully equipped. They should be in a position to stock their lands to their full capacity. They should be provided with the most modern farm buildings of every kind. There is a scheme of grants administered by the Department for the improvement of farm buildings. A great deal of good work has been done but there are still too many dilapidated farm buildings. The owners of these buildings know that grants are available but they also know that the grants would be insufficient to do the job properly. These farmers are not in a position to invest money in improving their out-offices. This is the explanation for the out-of-date farm buildings one sees all over the country.

Is it not true that a prosperous agricultural community makes for a prosperous urban community? When farmers have money they spend that money in the nearest town and that improves the business in that town. When agriculture is depressed less is bought over the counter. Less is taken from the shelves. There is less money in circulation. The decline in business in most of our towns today is due to the fact that the farmers are no longer prosperous; they have not got the money to spend. If we want to revive life in rural Ireland the only way in which that can be done is by substantial State investment in agriculture. I do not think the president of the NFA was wrong when he recently made a plea on television for an immediate capital injection into agriculture.

What explanation has the Minister to offer for failing to give our principal industry the financial injection it so urgently requires for its survival? In the ten year period from 1951 to 1961, 88,000 farmers and their families left the land; of this figure 72,000 left from farms of under 50 acres. From 1961 to 1970 something in the region of 80,000 left the land. Can the Minister offer any explanation for this very serious flight from the land? Is it not also true that the west of Ireland is almost denuded of its population? Leitrim, Roscommon and parts of Galway have been very seriously affected by the flight from the land. In my own constituency numbers have left the land in recent times. They have not left for the sake of adventure; they have left because they could no longer make a living on the land. Some of them were the sixth and seventh generations born and reared on the land. They were faced with bankruptcy. There were no prospects and so they left the land and moved into the urban areas. This is a sad commentary on the economic state of our country. The Government have done a certain amount of patchwork, but it is only patchwork. There is no long-term agricultural policy. There is no proper State investment in agriculture. There is no effort to build up confidence in those who are left on the land that there is a future for them on the land. There is no prospect of a decent standard of living to enable them to rear their families in accordance with Christian decency. I am keenly disappointed at the handling of the agricultural situation.

There is evidence that a deaf ear has been turned to the reasonable requests and pleas which have been made by the farming community. There is also evidence that the Government have failed to act on the warnings given them by those best qualified to give those warnings in relation to agriculture, namely, the farmers. There is evidence of the Government's failure to prevent the flight from the land which we have been experiencing since 1951.

On the eve of our entry into the EEC the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has nothing better to offer than pious promises of better times to come. I wonder when the Government will become ashamed of telling the farmers that they will eventually be better off. Such promises and undertakings have been uttered by numerous Ministers for Agriculture and Fisheries but the facts are that people are leaving the land and those who remain are unhappy because of the future bleak prospects of a decent living standard.

Is it not time our agricultural policy was completely overhauled? Past experience should be used as a guideline in forming a new policy for the farming community. This country is designed to be an agricultural country and any efforts to convert it into an industrial country cannot possibly succeed. This country is probably one of the most beautiful countries on the face of the earth. We do not have too much hot or too much cold weather; we do not have too much rain or too much sunshine. The land is suitable for grazing and some of it is suitable for tillage. Our Creator placed us in the best possible geographical position and He gave us some of the best land in Europe, although we do have some poor quality land as well.

A vast acreage of land can be described as waste land, which comprises hedges, ditches, et cetera. In countries like Denmark and Germany one seldom sees even a perch of waste land. In Holland the Dutch have reclaimed thousands of acres of land. When is it proposed to utilise every single square yard of land to advantage here? I am sure the land project officers in each country must have statistics and information about the amount of what may be described as poor quality land which is not producing anything for the owner. I believe that a section of the Minister's Department, in conjunction with the advisory services and county committees of agriculture, should devote their energies to see how poor quality land, which is at present producing nothing, could produce some form of crop, vegetable or plant. Rates must be paid on land even if it is not producing anything and this is a liability not only to the owner but to the community as well.

Until every single square inch of arable land is producing we shall never be able to make land pay. The Department have a serious responsibility to ensure that every perch of land is utilised. This is the only way to end the alarming flight from the land which we have experienced during the last 40 years. In my opinion that is neither a good recommendation nor a satisfactory certificate for any country. Despite all the lip-service paid to the agricultural industry in the last 40 years the only achievement we can boast about is that the numbers employed on the land have been halved during that period.

A national farm survey was carried out some time ago and it was found that 100,000 farmers had family incomes of £208 per year. That is a very sad comment on the life of those on the land who have been described as the salt of the earth and who are, in the opinion of the House and the Government, the backbone of the country. How could a family exist on £208 per year with ever-rising rates and everincreasing cost of living, with the serious problems they have in regard to perhaps everything required on the farm because prices have been substantially increased? The Minister and his officials must be well aware that the lot of these farmers has improved very little since that survey was carried out.

Information available from various surveys indicates that 100,000 farmers and members of their families whose principal or sole occupation is farming have an income of £5 per week or less from farming. Is that not an extraordinary disclosure? Is it not the complete answer to the question I posed a few moments ago? In 40 years our farm population has been halved. One of the reasons is that so many farmers, small farmers especially, have under £208 per year income. I do not know how that tallies with the fact that there is practically no item which the small farmer has to buy that has not increased in price, in many cases by 25 or 40 per cent.

This applies to plough points, plough boards and even to the yard brush which is essential in a farmyard. It once cost 4s. 6d; today it costs 17s 6d. Farmers must have barbed wire to ensure they have proper fences. This could be bought for £1 8s: that price has now been doubled. If he requires cement he finds there has been an extraordinary increase. If a small farmer with a mowing machine must purchase a mowing knife its cost is exactly five times what it was in the late '50s or early '60s. The same applies to a sharpening stone which has increased in cost by almost 100 per cent. Spades and buckets, fork handles, plough discs, scythes, sole plates and other equipment such as slashers and shovels without which a farmer cannot successfully run a small holding are costing from 25 per cent to 70 per cent more and, as I said, the mowing knife has increased in cost by 500 per cent.

If, because of shortage of labour, the small farmer must use a tractor—and the time has gone when workers are readily available for agricultural work —he finds the cost has increased substantially. Emigration has taken thousands of people away and they find work abroad more profitable. Under trade union regulations in many cases they work only five days a week while in agriculture one must work seven days a week particularly if one is engaged in the dairying industry. Small farmers who have been obliged to try to equip their holdings with machinery discover that extraordinary increases have taken place in the price of tractors. The large farmer who could, at one time, purchase his six-cylinder combine for £2,165 must now pay almost £4,000 for the same combine. The small farmer who could buy a two-furrow plough for £62 must now pay up to £120 or £135 for the same article. This applies also to cultivators, mowing bars and agricultural machinery in general. The same situation applies with regard to the repair of machinery. Many farmers purchase second-hand tractors and other machines which require frequent repairs. In the late 1950s the charge per hour for repair of tractors was approximately 4s 6d; a sum of £1.50 or £1.70 per hour is now charged for repairs to agricultural machinery. Tractors and other types of machinery are essential to the small farmer because labour is not available, or is extremely difficult to obtain, but general running costs of such machinery are out of all proportion to the margin of profit of the dairying, livestock or tillage farmer.

The wages of the farm workers have been increased substantially. Nobody denies them the right to a decent wage because agricultural workers are highly skilled at their job. They are a tremendous asset to this country and they are entitled to the increases they have received. However, I should like to pay a tribute to the many farmers who have paid in excess of the wages recommended by the Agricultural Wages Board. There have been many instances where farmers treat their workers especially well when they have a good year in farming.

There is a very considerable degree of loyalty between the farmer and his worker. Many of our farms have been passed down from father to son and in many instances the same family of farm workers work on the one farm for many years. That bond of confidence is vital to the survival and success of Irish farming. It is rare that a farmer fails to pay his workers a fair wage or to treat them in a decent manner. Most of our farmers know the value of the good agricultural worker and, in turn, the worker appreciates the prospect of employment in his own locality. Because of their devotion and allegiance to their employers, many of the agricultural workers have the same interest in the land as have the owners.

If our farmers were better off, it would follow that the agricultural workers would also be better off but where the farmers have low living standards this reflects on the farm workers. All the heavy costs the agricultural community have had to bear have had the effect of weakening the industry and have been a factor in the decline in the population of rural Ireland.

With regard to running costs, the farmers have had to meet very severe increases in the cost of national health stamps, workmen's compensation and fire insurance, where in many instances rates have increased by 150 per cent. All these increases must be met from the profits made by the farmers. In the spring the farmer must sow his crops and fertilise the land; during the summer he must deal with the hay crop and in the autumn he will reap the return of his spring investment. The Irish farmer has no ambition to be a millionaire. All he wants to do is to leave the land in the autumn in better condition and obtain fair compensation for his work during the year. How depressing it must be for him to end up in a worse financial situation than when he started his farming operations at the beginning of the year. In a considerable number of cases this is what happens to small farmers if they have a bad year because, irrespective of the crops they produce, they must pay interest on overdrafts and pay many other costs also.

Like many other countries, Ireland is dependent on the weather to a considerable degree. For the past three or four years we have been fortunate in this respect but we have suffered in the past as a result of bad weather conditions. If the Minister puts himself in the position of the small farmer who has a bad year, he will appreciate the unfortunate position of the farmer. He is completely sunk for the following five years, at least if he has no other income to bring up his losses. I have not seen any statistics issued by the Department indicating how long it takes a farmer to recover from the financial disaster of a bad year. He certainly will not recover in two or three years. We have had a number of bad years for one reason or another.

I received a letter from a constituent this morning in which he referred to his expectations as a result of a contract he had with Erin Foods in the Tuam factory. What does the Minister propose to do? A farmer works hard with skill and industry from sunrise to nightfall to produce a crop of celery, beans, peas, brussel sprouts, wheat, beet, oats or barley, or some other crop. When he has produced that crop and has it ready for sale he finds there is no market for it. What does such a man do? To whom does he turn? With whom does he plead? There are many such cases in this country this year. Small farmers now have to sit and look at the crops they produced. They cannot sell them. They have been turned away. They have been rejected. Is not that poor encouragement for them?

What is wrong with our marketing system? If contracts are entered into and, if verbal commitments are entered into, what machinery is available in the Department to insure against financial disaster for the people who produce the crop and find there is no market for it? They pay the increased costs to which I have already referred. They pay the increased charges. This affects every home. This deplorable situation has arisen. The hands of many small farmers have been burned by Erin Foods this year. I hope the Minister will not allow this debate to conclude without giving an undertaking to the growers and customers of Erin Foods that he will consult with the Minister for Finance and order the setting up of a public inquiry with power to send for papers, persons and records. The Department should not try to conceal the fact that there is a need for an inquiry into the manner in which small farmers have been treated by Erin Foods.

I want to ask the Minister has there been a complete sell-out to foreign interests by Erin Foods of everything for which they were originally intended to stand. Can we have any confidence in the future activities of Erin Foods? I am particularly perturbed because of the serious position which has arisen in the town of Carlow which provides employment for quite a number of my constituents. I want to refer to the situation in Tuam and Carlow in relation to sugar beet. There have been quite a large number of redundancies in the Carlow area, in the Minister's own constituency. We are told that the processing of celery is likely to be discontinued with the result that a large number of my constituents are faced with unemployment and quite a number of farmers in the area who have produced crops for Erin Foods now find that their crops will no longer be required.

What changes have taken place in Erin Foods recently? What has happened? The Minister should make known to this House the circumstances under which Mr. Tony O'Reilly left. Were any recommendations or submissions made—and have they been on the files of Erin Foods for some time— by practical people who warned about the situation as far back as two and a half years ago? What foreign influences were at work to undermine the founddations of Erin Foods? I want the Minister to come clean and tell us have the suppliers of Erin Foods been sold out to foreign interests? Have they been let down the drain? Is some of the machinery which is used for food processing about to be dismantled and transferred to various parts of the country? Is some of it not to be reerected? Are Erin Foods going completely out of the processing of certain products?

Can the Minister tell the House what marketing machinery Erin Foods had to press their sales as against the imported product? I am told by a very reliable authority that the Erin Food products are as good as any products that were ever put on the shelves of any stores but, for some reason or other, no effort was made to press their sale. Therefore, let us have a full investigation and inquiry into the marketing activities of that organisation. Carlow is of concern to me because constituents of mine from the south end of my area are employed there. What will the position be if and when we enter the European Economic Community? I want to put on the record a quotation from the Evening Press of the 15th July, 1970. It is headed Sugar Problems in EEC and reads as follows:

The Common Market commission yesterday turned down a Dutch request that the community start unofficial contacts in Geneva with a view to participating in the international sugar agreement.

Commission vice-president Sicco Mansholt said that the six must first take steps to reduce sugar production inside the community which had a sugar surplus of 900,000 tons last year. Dr. Mansholt is to reintroduce proposals aimed at cutting down all the six's main farm surpluses to September.

The community stayed out of the international sugar agreement when it was concluded a year and a half ago, after failure to agree on export quotas. The six were seeking a minimum export quota of 600,000 tons for the community, but the other parties to the agreement would offer no more than 300,000 tons.

In the memorandum concerning sugar beet and circulated by the Minister we are told that the acreage under sugar beet in 1971 was 73,102 acres compared with 64,400 in 1970. In the event of our joining the EEC, what is to be the position of the beet growers? Irish farmers are being told that within the EEC they would receive record prices for livestock but let the Minister be honest and tell the sugar beet growers what proposals he has in mind for them and also what are the proposals for the survival of the small farmer, those with less than 50 acres for whom, according to Dr. Mansholt, there is no future in the EEC. Should not the small farmers be made fully aware of all the facts before they are asked to vote in a referendum?

There are many farmers in my constituency who produce sugar beet. Those in south Laois produce for the Carlow factory, while those in the Borris-in-Ossory area produce for the factory at Thurles and the Offaly producers supply the Tuam factory. I want the Minister to spell out clearly what is in store for these people within the EEC. There is no point in telling them that they must change to beef or cereal production. They have found that their land is suited to the production of sugar beet and, consequently, they have been able to produce the crop at a profit. From what I have read about the EEC, there will not be much place for these farmers within the Community. What other crop will they be able to produce that will be as profitable for them? Is there to be a campaign to restrict the acreage devoted to beet growers? If there is to be such a campaign, what alternative plans has the Minister in mind?

Not only is there uneasiness among the beet growers, but I am aware that there is much uneasiness on the part of the workers in the sugar factories. The reason for this is that they believe that as soon as we enter the EEC, the future prospects for them will be very bleak, first, because of the decrease in sugar consumption at home and, secondly, because of a surplus of sugar in the EEC countries. I hope the Minister will deal with these points when he is replying. Most of these workers have families to provide for and they should be told what their prospects are. I hope that the Department have considered all these matters very carefully. After the appearance in the Evening Press of the article I have quoted, I watched carefully for some comment from the Department but there was none. The beet growers and those concerned with the industry must be told whether, to use the industrial phrase, beet will be on the “redundancy” list.

I repeat that I represent a first-class agricultural constituency with a tradition of beet growing where uneasiness exists in relation to the prospects for sugar beet when we go into the EEC. For that reason, I ask the Minister, when he is replying, to clear up the position so that beet growers may know exactly where they stand. I am not happy, nor is my conscience very clear, in relation to the prospects of the beet producer and I can only rely on the Minister to tell this House and the country where the sugar beet industry stands in relation to our entry to the EEC.

I should like to refer to our bacon factories. There was a time when great emphasis was placed on the pig in rural Ireland. Time has brought changes and pigs are now produced by the hundred. Years ago every house in rural Ireland had a piggery at its rere. It took three to three and a half months from the time the bonham was purchased until it was 16 stone weight. Therefore, about three times a year there was an income from the pig. As we went abroad our attention was directed to the type of bacon that was required. People have now become more choosy about bacon and, in Britain and on the Continent, the consumer has become very critical. Nobody wants to buy fat bacon. An effort was made by the Department to enable us to market a better type of pig which would provide more lean bacon. That has been done, and, at the moment, the type of bacon exported by our factories is of a very high standard. Choice sides are selected for export while for home consumption we have mainly what is unfit for export.

I should like to hear from the Minister, and bacon factory workers would like to hear from him, what is to be the future of the small bacon factory. There is no decline in the number of pigs being produced and while one would like to see the pig producer benefit more by increased profits I wonder if there has been a full investigation of the elimination of the middleman in so far as that is possible? The pig industry is one of the largest employers in the country. There are over 100,000 pig producers in the Republic and more than 4,000 factory employees. The pig industry is a major earner of foreign currency. That is why, when we enter the EEC, there must be greater prospects for those engaged in it. We must endeavour to produce more pigs for export but are we placing too much emphasis on the mass production of pigs, or are we going to take steps to encourage the small farmers who have now gone out of pig production to go back in and make it a profitable exercise? A small farmer can produce some of his own feeding stuffs. We should have some new scheme which would give a greater incentive to the small man to devote some of his talents to pig production. Pig production is now in the hands of co-operatives or major production managers and owners. Bacon factories are very particular as to the type of pig they require, especially for export. The bacon factories are up to the standard of continental factories. There is a very substantial bacon factory in my home town which has been honoured on many occasions at the RDS as producing the highest quality bacon in this country. One of the finest bacon factories that I have ever been in is that at Tralee, County Kerry. It is one of the major factories. The factory in Mountmellick, while it might not be described as a major factory, does serve a very big community and a very wide area and produces, perhaps, the most profitable and best type of bacon side for export as well as for the home market.

There is a certain unease in relation to the administration and general working of small bacon factories. It should be possible to devise means whereby the Minister would guarantee the continuance of these factories and their future welfare. These factories serve the community well and earn foreign currency. In order to maintain these factories at the highest possible standard an effort should be made to bring the small man back into pig production. For some reason the number of pigs produced by the smaller producers is not anything like what it was some years ago. In order to increase production on the part of the small man the price of pig feed should be made economic. Most of the small producers got out of pig production because of the cost of feeding stuffs.

There should be a ratio between the price of pig feed and the price obtainable for the pig. If that were the case the producer could calculate his costs of production. The upward trend in pig feed prices has considerably damaged the industry. An Bord Gráin should be in a position to control the price of pig feed, in the interests of the industry. The pigs and bacon industry is of primary importance. Numerous small farmers who had engaged in pig production have ceased to do so because of the prohibitive price of pig feed. An effort should be made, by the Department or by An Bord Gráin, to have pig feed made available to small farmers who will engage in pig production. If, in addition to the larger producers such as co-operative societies and private producers of 400 to 500 pigs, the small farmer were producing pigs, a continued supply would be guaranteed for the bacon factories. Despite what has been said about grading, small pig producers have maintained production of an excellent type of pig which fulfilled all the requirements of the factories, such as the bacon factory at Tralee and factories owned by Messrs Henry Denny and Company, that have played such an important part in the development of our pig and bacon industry. I salute the managements of the major bacon factories for their high standard of efficiency and skill, which has been rewarded by recognition from consumers on the Continent and elsewhere.

I have often wondered if a more attractive scheme for the purchase of pigs could not be devised: if, for instance, the bacon factories could contract for the purchase of pigs. There is, of course, the danger that some producers might be left at the end of the queue but I suggest there might be a system through which pig producers voluntarily could register for the supply of pigs to their local factories. I am familiar with the factories at Tullamore and Mountmellick who produce best quality bacon and cater excellently for the producers in the area.

What I am getting at here is the point that I should like to see many more people engaged in the pig industry, especially small farmers who had to get out of production because of excessive cost of feed. Their return to the industry would mean that more small farmers also would have to engage in barley production.

I have often felt that there should be the closest co-operation between the producers and the factories. I realise that the relationship between them at present is reasonably satisfactory but even closer co-operation would mean that many small farmers who gave up pig production might be encouraged to return to it. With the increase in pig herds would come an improvement in the quality of pig products and this is most important because of our imminent accession to the Common Market. In this context the Minister will have to consider seriously giving all the help possible to both the factories and the producers. I trust that whenever they approach him the Minister will treat the factories with the consideration they deserve, especially if they require financial assistance for expansion and extension, which they will need to do to compete profitably in EEC conditions.

I am not happy with the state of the pig industry at the moment. As I have said, we need to encourage more people to participate in the production of more pigs. If this is to be done, the Minister must see to it that a scheme is devised whereby pig feed will be available at prices which will make it possible for small producers to see a profit at the end of the year. One of our great problems is that the incomes of all our farmers, but of small farmers in particular, lag so far behind those of other sectors in the economy. Small farmers are entitled to a well-planned system of production and the Department should undertake an intensive drive to ensure that from small viable farms we can have greater production. I have always felt that the farmers have been voices crying in the wilderness in so far as serious Government action was concerned and I am not satisfied that serious notice has been taken of the efforts they have made. They cannot close the gap between themselves and those engaged in employment in other sectors without assistance from the Government and in relation to the survey to which I have referred, as to the 100,000 farmers whose incomes are in the region of £5 per week, there is a considerable gap to be bridged between these farmers with their small holdings and the industrial worker with an income of £20 to £25 a week, perhaps, inclusive of overtime.

The farmer gets no overtime; he has no five-day week; and he has no eight-hour day. It is a seven-day week for him and during the busy seasons, in spring, and in summer at the hay, and again in the autumn, he must work in the region of 18 hours per day. If he is engaged in the dairying industry, he has a seven-day week and must rise at 4.30 or 5.30 in the morning. Many of them in that industry have had to depend on a continuous supply of electricity for their milking machines and this is why I think attention should be given to the special position of dairy farmers. They have suffered many setbacks in the past and have faced very grave losses from time to time. These dairy farmers are as hardworking a section of agricultural workers as there is in any part of the world and it is not because of lack of hard work, of drive, initiative or energy that they are not better off.

The Minister indicated that there were occasions when we had surplus milk, a surplus at different times which was difficult to market. I have always failed to understand why we have not availed of the market at our own doors for the consumption of a greater quantity of milk. I remember being on a deputation to some Minister—there have been so many Government changes in recent times that my memory fails to register which Minister it was—on this matter and I feel that a very substantial amount of milk could be consumed if every school gave a pint of milk per day to every child. A pint of milk is not very much and I have often wondered why greater success has not attended the efforts to promote greater milk consumption. The price of milk at present to very poor people is prohibitive. The cost of bottled milk has increased twice this year which means that for a household, the head of which may be unemployed, and which may have six or eight children, it is prohibitive and their children are unable fully to avail of the nourishment which is in milk. We are not good milk drinkers in this country.

Now that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is making all kinds of extraordinary sounds around Christmas, appealing to people to buy Irish, and we all join with him in these appeals, why can the Department not use television to a greater extent to make known the value of milk? There is an advertisement on television "Butter is the Cream" which is most effective; there is an advertisement in connection with margarine which is most effective. I feel that it would be a worthwhile investment if a substantial amount of money were provided by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries or the Minister for Finance—the farmer does not care who provides it so long as he gets it—so as to ensure that all our children will have made available to them a reasonable supply of milk each day. It is correct to say that many schools have a hot meals scheme and there is a supply of soups, but there is nothing to prevent the supplying of at least one pint of milk per day.

It may be that we cannot have a continuous supply of milk for that purpose, but if that be so, there is something radically wrong somewhere, because I have known occasions in the past when it was difficult to find a market for milk and yet we had a market readily available, if properly organised. We have boards, committees and commissions to advise and to investigate and I think it would be a worthwhile exercise if the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries sat down with the Minister for Education and the Minister for Finance and hammered out a scheme which would result in the consumption of thousands of gallons of milk by the schoolchildren throughout the year. A greater campaign for the encouragement of the drinking of milk should be undertaken. If we spent more on advertising milk consumption we might have to spend less on the Department of Health.

The dairy farmers of the country deserve a high tribute. They have worked hard and have co-operated with the bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis eradication schemes. They have had to undertake heavy financial commitments on the installation of water, the modernisation of farm buildings and the installation of milk coolers and other equipment necessary for the proper running of their dairies. A dairy farmer's income is derived from the sale of milk and of cattle. Cattle must be replaced at a high cost without interfering with the milk supplies to the local creameries. Assistance is necessary to enable the dairy farmers to reach the highest standards of production. Milk and cattle prices must be maintained. The living standards of the industrious farmers should be high. The increases in milk prices recently announced are insufficient to meet the overhead costs of electricity, milking machines, cooling equipment, petrol and the wear and tear on vehicles which make frequent journeys to the creameries. There is also the everincreasing burden of rates to be met.

Dairy farmers deserve encouragement. Their living standards should be high. An injection of many million pounds is necessary to enable the farmers to improve their milk production. Do farmers allow for transport costs at so many pence per mile? Money must be given to the farmers who are giving such excellent service to the country.

The cheese manufactured at Mitchelstown and elsewhere is of a very high standard. On the Continent there is Italian, French and Danish cheese. There must be something wrong with our export drive and with our cheese marketing when we are unable to sell more of our excellent cheese. A merchant in Jackson Heights in New York made arrangements some years ago for the products of Clover Meats, Killybegs frozen fish, and Galtee cheese to be displayed at his store. As soon as these goods were displayed in the windows there were queues outside of people wishing to purchase these goods. There were further queues into that store to ask the management when more supplies of that cheese and the other products to which I have referred would be available. There was no continuity of supply. Maybe conditions have improved in recent times. Irish cheese has found favour with American and continental connoisseurs. With better marketing, better advertising and proper presentation of our cheese Mitchelstown would leave continental cheese streets behind.

A substantial sum should be provided for the reorganisation of machinery for the marketing of Irish agricultural produce. I do not know whether it is Córas Tráchtála that is responsible for the American market or what machinery is there for marketing our produce in Britain and on the Continent. However, the people concerned should be awakened from their slumbers; we have the commodity, and all that is needed is the marketing organisation.

I wonder what happened the plan of the Department of Agriculture for increasing gradually the number of cows and other stock. There was to be an all-out drive to encourage people to increase their dairying stock. This is still desirable so that farmers can get a profitable return for the money, labour and skill they are investing in the industry.

The farming community is handicapped because rural areas are still underdeveloped. It is necessary to have a comprehensive rural development programme. There is plenty of talk, but no action. An ounce of action is worth a ton of talk. The rural community who are our main producers and the backbone of the country do not seem to enjoy the same living standards as those in other sectors, in highly paid professions or in top-class industrial employment. Farmers have a right to demand better living standards. We do not seek anything better than is enjoyed in other walks of life, but it is a sad reflection on our country that the farming community, especially the owners of uneconomic holdings, should lag so far behind other sections of the community.

Our consciences must be seriously disturbed when we consult the national surveys of the past and read what they have revealed. We should ask ourselves if we have seriously got down to the task of bringing those on the land, farmers and farm workers, up to a reasonable standard of living so that they may at least compete with professional people, public servants and those in industry. They are still lagging far behind. Is the farmer always to be the poor man? Is he always to be looked on as the last man to receive substantial State investment to enable him to develop to the full?

The farmer has the land and he has the means of working it but he is only allowed to commence on a project by being blindfolded and handcuffed. He is held back for the want of the State help and assistance to which he is entitled if he is to produce for export and if the gap between himself and other sectors of the community is to be closed. This cannot be done unless a substantial effort is made by the Government.

I am glad there has been a change of heart on the part of the Government in recent times. We now find the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries sitting down and talking to farmers around a table. Perhaps the less said about the past the better. We should all start anew. We should have a properly set-up agricultural advisory council appointed by the vocational organisations interested in agriculture and recommendations should be submitted by farmers, who are the best judges of what they want and for submitting remedies for their own problems. I trust that the Minister or any future Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries will always be available to talk with farming organisations, with every branch of the agricultural community and also every farmer who has a common-sense contribution to make. There is a lot to be learned from talking with farmers; they can understand the Minister's problems and he can understand their problems. They have made an unanswerable case for substantial investment in their industry. Discussions should take place until such time as the Minister has overcome all the problems involved.

A high degree of protection against foreign control in the processing and marketing of agricultural produce should be given. The word "foreigner" is looked on as a dirty word today. I am not ashamed or afraid to say that my concern is with the Irish farmer. I want to see Irish farmers getting every possible protection and safeguard in so far as the processing and marketing of their agricultural produce is concerned. I do not want to see any foreign concern engaged in agriculture using their activities in this country to the detriment of Irish farmers. The Minister has a definite duty in this regard.

Agricultural produce should be sold to the very best financial advantage. Farmers are entitled to this. We have been discussing the plight of agriculture, the flight from the land and the standard of living of farmers. We should all admit that Irish farmers today carry more than their fair share of taxation and that they have a right to some degree at least of serious thought in relation to the unfair share of taxation, such as rates, which places a very heavy burden on them. Rates are a very serious handicap to landowners, whether they are engaged in horse breeding, dairying, tillage or livestock in general.

Only some landowners.

The rates levied on these people——

Not on all of them.

——are, in my opinion, a hardship.

The question of rates does not, of course, arise on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

I agree, but the capacity of the farmer to pay them is undoubtedly relevant and, unless the farmer is in a position to pay, then rates constitute a very serious problem. I want the Minister to consider some measure whereby rates can be reduced.

That has been done for about 85 per cent of landowners.

I think a little more could be done and, judging by the demand notes I have seen issuing to the agricultural community, I think a little more should be done. When the 1972-73 rate is struck—it is no harm for the Minister to be forewarned, though I am sure his reply will be that we will cross that bridge when we come to it—the burden will be so great that steps will have to be taken to give substantial relief to those deriving their livelihood from the pursuit of agriculture.

In recent times there appears to have been a very high degree of co-operation between the wheat grower and the miller. We all remember the very difficult times when this state of affairs did not prevail. As a result of numerous meetings the millers have now come to realise the problems of the growers and the growers have some appreciation of the difficulties of the millers particularly from the point of view of the reduction in the consumption of both bread and flour. The wheat producer is very important. In the past two years he has produced wheat of a very high standard. This wheat could be considered reasonably profitable but, unfortunately, the profit has been swallowed up in increased rates, increased living costs, increased taxation and increased agricultural costs.

I would particularly ask the Minister to have regard to the fact that weather plays an important part in wheat production. If the weather deteriorates during July and August the Minister should immediately enter into consultation with the millers to ensure the proper channelling of wheat at the intake points to enable a quick disposal of wheat deliveries. There is still a big gap between the price of feed wheat and millable wheat. Recently the price of bread has been increased and, as a result of that, the producer will naturally expect an increase per barrel in the price of wheat to make production economic.

Grain growers make a very important contribution towards reducing the bill for imported cereals. I believe that bill is something in the region of £30 million per annum. Grain growers should get a better price for their produce to encourage them to continue in cereals. I represent a constituency which has a good wheat record. There are a number of intake points. As a result of discussions the position has been eased at the intake points. In a bad year there should be the minimum delay in intake. Farmers have not got adequate storage facilities and financial assistance ought to be made available to them to enable them to provide their own storage.

With regard to barley, malting barley should carry a higher profit to the producer than it does. When one compares the price of barley products, whether they are the manufactured products of Messrs. Arthur Guinness, the manufactured products of either the brewing or the distilling end of the industry or the finished product of the malt extract industry, with the cost of the finished product I feel the amount paid to the farmer per barrel should be substantially increased. Farmers who grow barley and feed it to their own stock should be given a grant or bonus by the Department.

Efforts should be made by the Department to encourage small farmers and others who may have grazing rights on mountains or hills or partial grazing rights on lands to increase the numbers of sheep. There seems to be an outstanding market for mutton and lamb both at home and abroad. On page 5 of the notes which the Minister's Department submitted to us it states:

Demand for store cattle in the UK in 1970 was at a somewhat reduced rate. The numbers of stores exported to Britain and the Six Counties in 1970, with comparative figures for 1969 and 1968, were as follows: 1968, 591,500; 1969, 532,800; 1970, 501,400. Exports of store cattle to date in 1971 are appreciably higher than in 1970.

When the Minister is replying he should give the House some reason for the drop in sheep numbers from 591,000 in 1968 to 501,400 in 1970. Will the Minister say if this drop of 90,000 in two years has been a very substantial loss to the farmers? We also see in the report that in 1971 there is a drop in the acreage of wheat, oats, potatoes, turnips and other root crops. We are entitled to know what is responsible for the drop in these crops.

I want now to refer to the position of small farmers in the West of Ireland and parts of the midlands. Dr. Scully has made recommendations to the Government which, I presume, will be considered by them. Mr. Dillon advocated that land should be leased or rented to young farmers a long time ago. We are telling the farmers that although conditions are not good if we enter the EEC they will be good, but if we fail to enter the EEC what is going to happen to them? When we speak of small farmers we cannot help but make reference to Dr. Mansholt. Reference has been made to him in the handout from the Department which I think is worthy of comment. It states:

A comprehensive memorandum (Mansholt Plan) on the structural reform of agriculture has been under consideration by the EEC for a number of years and in March, 1971 the Council of Ministers adopted a resolution which sets out the basic framework of the structural reform of agriculture on a community basis.

According to this selected farmers will be entitled to assistance to modernise their holdings. They will be required to submit an approved development plan based on a six-year programme with a view to achieving a minimum earned income for one or two workers comparable with that obtained from non-farm employment in the area. Farmers aged 55-65 who, of their own accord, decide to leave the land and make their farms available to those who are in a position to carry out a planned improvement programme will receive an annual pension of about £250 or an equivalent lump sum allowance.

There is a good deal of uneasiness in this country in regard to speeches and statements by Dr. Mansholt. I have already referred to his statement in regard to sugar beet. If we enter the EEC and reach the stage when it is considered that the bigger the farms the better, will this be done by the big man swallowing the small man? Numerous people in history tried to put the small farmer out of business and none so ably as Fianna Fáil and if Dr. Mansholt is under the impression that our small farmers will be put out of business the Government have a responsibility to make it clear to him that agricultural effort here will concentrate on the revival and improvement of living standards and investment in the holdings of small farmers. I do not give two thraneens about the opinion of Dr. Mansholt whose boast it has been to remove a very great percentage of those engaged in agriculture on the Continent.

What is the percentage?

In 40 years, without Dr. Mansholt in this country you have half the farming population gone.

The Deputy says there was a percentage reduction caused by his policy on the Continent. What is the percentage?

A very great reduction.

The difference is that they are getting employment in their own countries. They do not have to go to England as they do here. There is a vast difference between removing the farm hand from the farm and giving him employment in his own country and chasing him out as we have done here over the years.

If all our small farmers are to go out of business under Dr. Mansholt's plan I am entitled to ask where will they go and what will they work at. If continental farmers have gone out of business as a result of co-operative farming and other methods adopted by the EEC they were able to get profitable alternative employment in their own countries. We are quite different. We cannot provide profitable employment for anyone even at the moment. There has been a steady flow out of the country and what would be the result if Dr. Mansholt's plan were adopted here? I think I have the figure for the number expected to leave the land by 1980; it is a figure that frightens me because it was so unreal. I cannot lay hands on it but when I find it I shall send it to the Parliamentary Secretary because it is a most interesting one. It is a very substantial figure. The small farmer in this country will not allow himself to be driven out of business——

He does not have to. There is no compulsion.

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary can say why in the past 40 years the number of people deriving their livelihood solely from agriculture has dropped by half here in Ireland?

What is the position in Europe as a whole?

We are dealing with this country and the agricultural population is now half what it was 40 years ago.

And there are 60,000 fewer people at work today in industry and everything else than in 1967. If there was work in industry it would be all right but it is not.

In ten years 88,000 left the land and in the past ten years 94,000 people have left the land.

I appreciate the silence; there is no response from the Parliamentary Secretary.

And the population of the country has increased over the past ten years.

But rural Ireland has declined. To a great extent the agricultural population have vanished. To reduce the agricultural population by half in 40 years is quite an achievement even for Fianna Fáil. That is a very sad state of affairs in an agricultural country and I think the small farmers are entitled to ask if they are to be put out of business if we go into Europe, where will they go or get work. That is a straight plain question which so far, to my knowledge, has not been answered by Fianna Fáil.

The Minister should take steps to ensure that no matter what the policy is in Brussels or what the views of Dr. Mansholt may be, we shall aim at securing what suits our own agricultural economy, the continued survival of the small farmer who will not allow Fianna Fáil, Dr. Mansholt or anybody else to drive him out of business. He wants to stay on the land and all he wants is encouragement, financial investment, more support from the Government, markets for what he produces and prices for what he walks off the land. That is the kernel of the situation. If Dr. Mansholt or those connected with the EEC think that many farmers must leave the land between now and 1980, they have a duty to tell us where those people are to go. Will they be forced to emigrate or will there be alternative suitable employment for them in their localities? These questions must be answered.

What has happened to the land project section of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries? This section was established by a former Minister for Agriculture, Mr. Dillon, and it has done valuable work. There are many applications for work to be carried out under that scheme in every county but it appears that the work is not being done. Frequently there are excuses given for not carrying out this type of work; it is said that the land is of too poor a quality to reclaim, that it would not be economic to spend money on improving lands that will not yield a good return, that a fall for water cannot be made. The intention of the scheme was to reclaim useless land so that food could be produced on that land. It is regrettable to hear reports that the land is too poor to reclaim——

Mr. Dillon would not agree with the Deputy on that.

It is utter nonsense for the land project section to say that land is of too poor a quality to reclaim. It is the job of the land project section to reclaim poor land, land on which there may be rocks or stones, that may be covered with furze, or swampy land. The tendency of the Department to say that this kind of land cannot be reclaimed is to be deplored.

It is time the Minister had consultations with all the interests involved in land reclamation. He should ascertain the area of land still awaiting reclamation, he should find out the acreage involved and the locality, and steps should be taken to ensure that the land is reclaimed. This should be done either through the restoration of the Local Authorities (Works) Act or it should be done by the Office of Public Works who seem to have no interest in carrying out drainage schemes other than main arterial drainage.

I am sick and tired hearing reports that land cannot be reclaimed. It is precisely because land is swampy and non-productive that the scheme was introduced. The benefits of the land reclamation scheme cannot be given to farmers because of adverse engineering reports in the Department which state that there is no fall for water or that the land is of too poor a quality. I would ask the Minister to take steps to change the present state of affairs. The scheme was introduced to help the small farmers and the aims of those who promoted it will not be realised until the last acre of waste land is improved and developed.

We are losing considerably because much of the land is water-logged. We should undertake drainage schemes whereby a fall for water will be provided or, alternatively, the water should be piped away from the land, irrespective of cost and distance. If the problem of water-logged land is not tackled, the farmers will not obtain the full benefits from the scheme. I object to the curtailment of land reclamation activities on the excuse that there is no fall for water or that streams are not located at convenient points to take the water from the land. More money should be provided to carry out this work; I have been disappointed at the large area of water-logged land throughout the country.

Man has reached the stage where he has explored the moon. Surely the technical experts in the Department should be able to find a fall for water in any farm throughout this country? It is nonsense to suggest otherwise. They do not want to do it because it is their policy that the less we spend the better type of bookkeeping we can have. There is plenty of waste land that might be developed——

More money is being spent on agriculture than ever before.

The money has less value now.

£1 nowadays is equivalent to 5s 6d——

If we start taking water to the moon, as suggested by Deputy Flanagan——

Order. I do not think Deputy Flanagan needs any assistance. He should be allowed to continue his speech.

Except Divine assistance.

I was wondering how long the Parliamentary Secretary would be able to resist.

He has his own troubles in Donegal. Blaney is giving him the needle there. The Deputy should watch his position there.

The Deputy should not worry about Donegal.

For the Official Report, I should like to make it clear that the reference I made to the moon was in relation to the activities of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I said we had reached the stage when man could explore the moon but the officers of the Department have not yet reached the stage where they can take water from low lying lands. That is the comparison I made. I do not want the Parliamentary Secretary to put in my mouth something which I did not say.

The Deputy is getting very thin in the skin.

Because I did not say it. This may be the cause of considerable amusement to the Parliamentary Secretary, and undoubtedly the cause of considerable amusement to the Department, but it is no cause for amusement to the small farmers who have to pay big rates on water-logged land. They are trying to get the Minister to reclaim those lands but he will not do so. I do not think I could spell it out any clearer than that. I protest at the fact that they are not doing that work. They do not want to give the farmers the benefit of the land reclamation scheme. They do not want to spend the money. The idea is that they have not got the money.

We are spending more than ever before.

They are telling the farmers that there is no fall and no way of getting rid of the water.

It can happen that there is no fall.

Money is worth nothing anyway. That is the whole problem.

It is a question of physics.

The Government are well "phisicked".

There is no use in telling me that there are areas in the Midlands and elsewhere where there is no fall. If you want to get water off land you pump it off. You can pump water up a hill. You do not need a fall.

You must put it somewhere.

You must put it into a suitable arterial drain.

They are all choked.

The arterial drains are all blocked because the Office of Public Works have not done their job. If we want to improve the quality of the land for the landowners what is needed is comprehensive drainage, which Fianna Fáil are not providing and which they have sabotaged and stopped under the pretence that there is no money to do that work.

The land reclamation section of the Minister's Department is not giving the value it should be giving. Applications have been made in regard to waste land which were turned down on the grounds of its not being economically feasible to reclaim it. I hope they will be dealt with sympathetically. I heard Mr. Dillon saying time and again, when he was in charge of the Department, that the purpose of the scheme was to convert useless land that was producing nothing——

You are telling lies on the man. I am sorry. I withdraw that.

I will not ask the Parliamentary Secretary to withdraw it because, no more than myself, nobody in the House takes him seriously. I heard the then Minister say that the main purpose of the scheme was to reclaim waste land. That is not being done now.

When the Minister is replying I hope he will deal with the eradication of warble fly. I understand that talks have taken place about the complete eradication of warble fly. This has caused great concern to the IAOS and other important farming organisations. Agreement was reached on the operation of a national dressing campaign for the eradication of warble fly. There has been a considerable loss to this country as a result of the laxity of the Department in allowing the warble fly infestation to continue. A very serious effort should now be made to eradicate warble fly completely. I hope that a courageous effort will be made in that regard.

I want to know when my own constituency will get the full benefit of the brucellosis eradication scheme. I have been pressing this matter for a long time. Parts of my constituency come within the scope of the scheme but Laois does not. As a member of the county committee of agriculture, I can assure the Minister that the number of cases of brucellosis in Laois is enormously high. Many farmers are very disturbed at the failure of the Department to give them the benefits of the scheme to which they feel they are entitled. I hope the Minister will take the necessary steps to give them the benefit of the scheme, realising the importance to the farmers of the complete eradication of brucellosis in Laois.

In March parts of Offaly lying north and west of the River Brosna were included in the scheme. I do not know who is in charge of this or who is advising the Minister on it, but the portion of Offaly that was left out was equally affected. I hope an effort will now be made with the least possible delay to put the scheme fully into operation in those areas.

I noticed in the Irish Independent of 14th April, 1971, under the heading “Farmers Seek Anti-Warble Campaign” that the Minister was asked to set the machinery in motion for an all-out campaign to arrest the growing incidence of the warble fly disease in the country's five million cattle. This is a very serious problem, coupled with the problem of the eradication of brucellosis. Any steps which the Government can take should be taken as quickly as possible.

Surely the Deputy is not advocating murder? There are so many gadflies in the Fianna Fáil Party that if we were to eradicate them all it would involve the murder of a large number of people in the Fianna Fáil Party.

This afternoon I was interested to hear that those engaged in the manufacture of fertilisers made a profit of something like £¼ million. Last year I think there was a loss of £80,000. I dealt with this matter on the last occasion and I do not propose to raise it again, that is, the heavy burden which the cost of fertilisers is placing on farmers. I have asked the Minister to hold a public inquiry into this matter and I think it should be undertaken with the least possible delay. There seem to be no grounds that would justify the increase in the cost of fertilisers.

I would like to hear what is the Minister's opinion on a statement made by his colleague, the Minister for Lands, to the effect that the Land Commission should be brought within the scope of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. The Minister for Lands referred to the possibility of his becoming redundant and said that in his opinion the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries should undertake the present activities of the Land Commission.

I do not think he said that.

Broadly, that was what he conveyed to his listeners. The time has come when a serious view must be taken of the entire farm structure of the country and the sooner the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister for Lands make up their minds on this, the better it will be for farmers generally. We must not have indecision; like Mohammed's coffin. this question is suspended in mid-air. I do not suppose the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries is very anxious to assume responsibility for the Land Commission; one could hardly blame him for not wanting the responsibility of this organisation that moves very slowly and is useless. I suppose it is for the same reasons that the Minister for Lands is endeavouring to have them taken over by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. However, some decision must be reached and the time has come when a rural development authority controlled by farmers and other rural interests should take over the functions of the Departments of Lands and Agriculture and Fisheries. A national board of rural development who would act as a top level advisory group reporting directly to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries should be set up. Of course, the proper occasion on which to deal with the Land Commission is during the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Lands but when we have the Minister for Lands endeavouring to have the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries assume responsibility for the Land Commission but not receiving any indication as to whether that would be done, it surely is time that a decision was reached and the Land Commission and the lands in their possession should not be left in a state of indecision.

The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries should make up their minds also to retain the existing county committees of agriculture.

Hear, hear.

Any effort by the Minister to remove the county committees of agriculture will be met with the strongest possible local opposition. During the past 12 months it would appear that there has been a move within the Department to have all advisory services provided direct from Merrion Street or to have the services administered on a regional basis. In this context I might mention the health regions which, in my opinion, are so large that they are unworkable. If there were to be, say, a midland agricultural region, this would embrace the counties of Westmeath, Longford, Offaly and Laois, so that there would be one unit to look after the beef producers of Westmeath, the beet producers of Laois and the cereal growers of all four counties as well as the boglands of Offaly. To replace county committees of agriculture by an agricultural unit that would administer an area such as I have mentioned, would be a step in the wrong direction. Therefore, I ask the Minister not to pay any heed to those in his Department who for many reasons would be glad to have the county committees of agriculture discontinued. These county committees of agriculture are comprised of representatives of farming organisations and of public representatives elected by the people. They are responsible for administering agricultural services in a way to suit best the interests of the farming community. They comprise men who have devoted their time and energy in the discharge of these services without getting any payment. They provide such valuable services as farming classes and debates for farmers during winter as well as providing the best possible advisory service for them.

Perhaps these committees are not as effective as would have been the original parish plan. Under that scheme it was the intention of the Department to have an agricultural adviser for every three parishes. It is a pity that that plan was not introduced and given a chance. Had this been done I believe that the agricultural advisory services would be of a higher standard than they are today. Nevertheless, the committee in each county are aware of the requirements of the farmers and each committee endeavour to provide the best possible service for the farming community. There is encouragement for competition that might not exist if the services were on a regional basis. It would be a backward step to discontinue these committees. I hope that not only will the Minister ensure they are retained but that the committees will be able to extend their activities, that official and statutory recognition will be given to the general council of committees of agriculture and that frequent meetings on agricultural matters of national interest will take place with the Minister.

I think I have covered most of the subjects which concern me. In conclusion I express my disappointment with the manner in which the farming community have been treated in relation to the low level of their profits. This debate must have given the Minister a good deal of food for thought. I think the debate on agriculture is the most important debate that takes place in this House in any year. I do not participate in debates as often as I did 20 years ago but I can never allow the debate on agriculture to pass without making a few observations. I can see rural Ireland dying out completely because of the failure of the Department to keep our people on the land with good living standards. I hope and trust that the Department will in the future realise their responsibility to keep people on the land and will not mislead the people by painting a fairytale picture of what is likely to take place on our entry to the EEC. On the other hand, an effort should be made to explain to our people what the position will be if we do not enter the EEC and an effort should be made to explain to our small farmers what alternative Fianna Fáil have for them in the event of Dr. Mansholt succeeding in driving them off the land.

There are numerous questions to be asked by farmers. It is certain that the survival of the small farmer is absolutely essential for Ireland and any man who says that the small farmer should be driven off the land is entitled to a tap of a political mallet. This kind of policy cannot succeed and will not be tolerated even with the best recommendations of Dr. Mansholt and all the Brussels experts. We have our own experts. The best experts in relation to the land of Ireland are the people of Ireland who have been bred, born and reared on the land. It is our job to keep those people there so that the land of Ireland may produce more and so that the people thereon may live in Christian decency. The margin of profit which our farmers enjoy as a result of their labours should be at least on a level with that of other sectors of the community.

I hope this debate has shown the Minister that everything is not well with the farming community. We still have a very distressed, worried and disturbed farming community. They do not know exactly where they are. This is a time which calls for leadership, courage, determination and brave and bold financial investment in the industry. This Estimate gives no evidence of that. It is like all the other Estimates, merely scratching the surface and doing nothing to give these people a sound way of living so that they may not be the poor of Ireland but the respectable people of Ireland who are the backbone of this country, who are producing food for man and beast and who up to this have received very little return or recognition for the amount of labour they put into the industry between sunrise and nightfall.

I hope the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries will throw off the shackles of political cowardice and go to the Government. It must be admitted that he is a good farmer. He should be impressed by the appeal that has been made for substantial national investment in agriculture because without it the agricultural community cannot survive. There is no point in attempting to go into Europe while we are as we are because we are going in as the poor little weaklings of agriculture. We are not fit to take our place with the farmers of the Six and little is being done to put us in a strong position. We are to go in as weaklings among the strength and might of Europe. If that happens we will be a very poor spectacle. We expected leadership, support, guidance and advice not today, not yesterday, but years ago, and it was not forthcoming. The Minister may have a little time left, but time is running out. If he wants to put the farming community in a position in which they will not be limping into Europe on crutches he should have a look at the whole structure of agriculture. The sooner that is done the better for all those engaged in that industry.

This debate has gone on for some time and at this stage it is difficult to be original because quite a lot of the ground has been covered. This is one of the most important Estimates that come before the House because of our vast exports of agricultural produce, because of the vast numbers engaged in agriculture and because of the subsidiary industries.

I shall deal briefly with the dairying industry. This is one of our most important industries because in this industry there is a high employment potential. The initial cost of getting involved in this industry is very high, the cost of starting off with a proper herd of cows, the provision of milking parlours, the installation of milking machines and proper water supply. The labour content is high, a number of people are engaged in looking after the herds, calves and so on and there is a lot of work involved in the milking. Again at the creameries there are a large number of people involved. This industry is not confined to one area. It is scattered throughout the whole country. There are other factors involved. Because of the higher labour content in dairying than in beef production the dairying industry needs special care and attention. In the past there has not been the vigorous approach to the dairying industry that its special importance would warrant.

Over the past few years, throughout Europe, there has been a cut-back in milk production which we should take advantage of. As a result, we have a ready market for many of our products. Every effort should be made to avail of this situation.

Over the past three years there has been a cut-back in dairy herds in the following countries: Denmark, 6.1 per cent; Italy, 9.6 per cent; Finland, 4.5 per cent; the Netherlands, 0.8 per cent and in West Germany, 2.3 per cent. I have here a chart taken from a booklet produced for British farmers—Agra Europe—published on the 10th of this month, in which nine European countries are mentioned: West Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Switzerland and showing that in the three years 1969 to 1971 there has been a cut-back in dairy herds of approximately 3.9 per cent. This is of tremendous importance to this country and something we should take advantage of.

If we allow the dairying industry to continue without sufficient initiative and drive and if we are not definite enough in our efforts and positive enough in planning and policy making, we will be in grave danger because we are going into a highly competitive community in which we may not have for other products the same potential as appears to be there for our dairy products. For that reason every effort should be made to ensure that the people engaged in milk production receive every co-operation and incentive from the Department.

Many farmers may not have the necessary capital to enable them to engage in dairying. If the county agricultural adviser believes that a farmer has special talent or potential for dairying that farmer should be encouraged to go into dairying and the necessary capital should be made available to him.

Beef prices in Europe are on a much higher scale than those obtaining in this country. In Paris on the 6th of this month the prices ranged from £15.19 to £16.42 per cwt. live weight for prime cattle. For prime heifers the prices were from £15.19 to £16.85. Italy is not a good guide in the matter of prices obtaining in Common Market countries because cattle prices in Italy are far in excess of normal levels. But, as prices in Paris and in Ireland are somewhat on the same level, Paris would be a good guide. The position is that in Paris beef prices are £5 and £6 per cwt. higher than in Dublin. This would indicate that there is a great potential in regard to beef production for Europe.

The prices obtaining in Brussels are somewhat similar to those in Paris. The prices in Hamburg and Rotterdam are also at roughly the same level and they are also greatly in excess of the prices obtaining in Ireland. This information comes from the booklet I have mentioned—Agra Europe. This journal was first printed in 1963. For the reason I have given it is of the utmost importance that beef production should be considered in a highly specialised manner.

In Offaly and Laois a number of farmers have gone in for intensive production of prime quality beef herds which are ready for sale at one year to two years of age. The county committee of agriculture is encouraging this type of high-class beef production.

As far as I can gather, this highly specialised agriculture, in its own way, is something that gets a very high return from the available land. For this reason we should be willing to utilise as much land as possible in this way. Instead of confining it to a chosen few in County Offaly it should be a countrywide feature of our agricultural economy because all farmers engaged in this sort of intensive agriculture will benefit from the work among them of the advisers and so will their neighbours. As I have said, it should be done on a countrywide basis if we are to reap full benefits from EEC prices and markets for beef.

While dealing with this aspect of dairying and beef production I have a critical note to sound in relation to some aspects of animal health. In the past year a big effort was made in relation to warble fly eradication. Unfortunately, during the years the eradication of the warble fly has been tackled on a stop-go basis: serious attempts would be made during one period, then the drive would wane and then would stop altogether. Last year a big effort was made and I hope it will be kept up until such time as we have seen the last of the warble fly which has such a detrimental effect not only on the hides of cattle, but also on their beef content. Food is wasted because cattle attacked by the warble fly use their energy chasing around the country instead of building beef. Therefore, the scheme should be continued at last year's level until the warble fly is completely eradicated.

A more serious problem is brucellosis. I read the Minister's speech with interest. It dealt reasonably comprehensively with different aspects of his Department's work. However, in reading the portion dealing with the EEC I looked specifically for reference to brucellosis. On page 2 of the document dealing with the main activities of the Department it is stated:

In addition, a number of requirements of the Community directives regulating intra-community trade in cattle and pigs would greatly upset our livestock production and marketing system, including the existing relatively free movement of animals to Britain and Northern Ireland.

I should be grateful if the Minister would dwell on this point when he is replying. The document goes on in relation to brucellosis:

Many European countries have eradicated it. Britain embarked on an eradication programme on a voluntary basis in 1967 and intends to start compulsory eradication in selected areas before the end of 1971. In the Six Counties, eradication is now at the final stages.

In this respect, I should like to know what is meant by the phrase "particularly in regard to the testing of animals immediately prior to export". I am not an expert on animal health within the EEC but as far as I am aware cattle can be exported into the EEC even though they are not completely free of brucellosis. This is dealt with on page 44 of the document I have been reading, where a number of interesting points have been raised, including the statement that the eradication of brucellosis is an important veterinary objective. As far as I am aware, cattle may be allowed into the Six EEC countries even though they are not certified as being brucellosis free. I am not certain of this and the document I have been reading from does not satisfy me that this is so. Therefore, if the Minister has any definite information I should be grateful for it.

At the moment, a number of areas where full-scale eradication was commenced in 1966—Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan and Sligo—have been added to, part of West Offaly is now included. I understand that in Meath, where an eradication scheme has been proceeding, there is a high incidence of brucellosis.

Personally, I am not satisfied that the brucellosis eradication scheme has been tackled as earnestly as it should have been and the heavy losses of Irish farmers from brucellosis should be sufficient to spur the Government on in this respect. It should be a top priority instead of being treated in the haphazard way it has been to-date. Regrettably, I have come in contact with farmers who have suffered heavy losses in their cow herds. The Minister is a farmer who engages in a considerable amount of dairying and I am sure he appreciates what dairy farmers are suffering from brucellosis. It is not alone the loss of calves but the general health of the cows is impaired, as well as milk production. There is the added danger of humans contracting the disease. It is something the Minister must tackle in earnest. Any farmer whose herd is hit by this disease is likely to become bankrupt and for this reason I feel that, while the efforts made up to now have been reasonable, they have not been vigorous or intensive enough.

This is one item, in going through the activities of the Department on this Estimate, to which the approach is really lackadaisical. West Offaly has been taken on and this is all very well, but I have come across a few farmers in my area who have suffered very heavy losses in the past year or two. I got in touch with the Department in an effort to obtain some benefits for a farmer in that area, some money to compensate him for his loss and to enable him to face the future again. It was a question of almost all the calves being wiped out. Any time I approached the Department I got every assistance possible from the veterinary section, and on one occasion I was in touch with the Department about a farmer whose herd had suffered from brucellosis and he had a veterinary surgeon down from the Department the following morning, but while he got every help from the veterinary inspector, this was of no great assistance to him when he had to meet his bank manager in the months ahead.

This disease is sufficient to cause the loss of an entire herd of calves in a year and means that the farmer involved cannot sell his cattle and, in addition, is not allowed to sell his milk to the creamery. We are all trying to earn our livings in different ways and I should not like to find myself cut off from my income for one or two years. I would find it very difficult to exist if my main source of income were cut off, and what must it be for a farmer to have no income this year and probably the next year and, perhaps, for two or three years? This is of national importance in relation to the EEC and I will await the Government White Paper to see the different regulations in regard to exports of cattle if they are not completely free of brucellosis, and I hope this matter will be set out there because this is costing farmers thousands of pounds each year.

It is essential, in view of our entry to the EEC—it now looks that we are going in—that consideration be given to the matter of subsidised loans. I understand from the Minister that loans made by the Agricultural Credit Corporation in 1970-71 amounted to £8.4 million. That is quite a sizeable amount of loans, but I find it hard to believe that it is sufficient, and it would be of interest to know the amount of money requested by farmers from the Agricultural Credit Corporation in that year. I am in contact with quite a number of farmers who applied for money from the corporation and I am quite confident in saying that more were refused loans than obtained loans.

I believe that more money should be made available to the Agricultural Credit Corporation for the benefit of farmers. It is essential, if farmers are to have working capital, that they be able to obtain subsidised loans for a period, that is, any farmer working to a definite plan. In other words, if a farmer who is in touch with his committee of agriculture decides to work to a definite plan for a number of years, and if he is short of capital, he should be allowed to obtain a subsidised loan. If the rate at which a loan is available from the Agricultural Credit Corporation is 9 per cent, a farmer would receive a subsidy of 5 per cent or 6 per cent on the loan, paid by the Government or the corporation, and he would pay the remaining 3 per cent or 4 per cent himself. This might be a greater incentive to the farmer. If he obtains credit, fair enough, but I believe that there should be a scheme of subsidised loans on the basis I mention—4 per cent or 5 per cent paid by the Government and the balance by the farmer. The farmer would have a definite plan to work with. He would have to keep up with his plan and ensure that it was working, and at the end of a period the capital would be paid back, together with the interest thereon. This, I believe, would be of benefit to the farmer.

I would not give the subsidised loan to everybody because there would be the danger of the demand being great when the amount of money available was limited. For this reason it might not be possible to cater for everybody. I would not grant such a loan generally to everybody purchasing land, except in the case of a farmer with a small farm who wanted to purchase an adjoining holding and consolidate that adjoining holding with his own farm. I would be in favour of granting a subsidised loan to a farmer to purchase land and consolidate it with his own holding. Such loans will be essential in the future. Farmers will be faced with many difficulties and they should be encouraged to purchase land and given subsidised loans to enable them to do so. I would favour giving such loans to people who would engage in milk production. It might not be wise to give them for beef production, where the labour content would not be high.

Farmers can be divided into those who are well off, those who are in the middle range and doing an average job, and those who are not as efficient as they might be. The small farm incentive bonus scheme is of immense benefit to the small farmer and the latest increase to £500 is encouraging. Some farmers with small farms will benefit. The average farmer because of the size of his farm may be ineligible and I would like to see him getting a subsidised loan.

Something should be done to encourage farmers to keep proper accounts. They should be given an incentive in order to get them into the habit of keeping such accounts. I would like the Minister to give me a guarantee that farmers who keep proper accounts will not be subjected to visits from the income tax collectors, followed by the sheriff, to look at their accounts and collect tax. The fear of such visits is what discourages farmers from keeping accounts. In the future, books and accounts will be of importance.

Farmers will be able to examine their books and find out what particular aspects of their operations are losing money or making money and they will then know whether production of a particular type should be continued or discontinued. It might be difficult to work out some system of payment to a farmer for keeping accounts and books, but some such system would act as an incentive and encourage farmers to keep accounts. The small farm incentive bonus scheme has helped farmers to keep accounts.

It is not possible under the rules of the House to discuss my next point in any detail now. I intend touching on the point and showing that the scheme whereby farmers receive an incentive on retiring from farming has not met with much success. Farmers do not wish to see the farms going out of the family. A man and wife, or an elderly brother and sister, may live on a farm and they would prefer to see it going to first cousins rather than to strangers. The Minister should discuss this point with the Minister for Lands.

There is an article in the Irish Independent today which deals with the Scully Report. The report paints a sad picture. It shows the numbers of people engaged in agriculture in the west of Ireland who have not had any real education after they left the national school and it says that 93 per cent of the farmers in the west have only had primary school education. This is very sad. Farms nowadays must be run on a business basis. A farmer must love his job. He is dealing with life and growth, with livestock and crops. For this reason the love of a person's farm and his involvement in agriculture is something unique. Education is essential for farming in order to carry it on as an industry, and this is what agriculture has become. Every farmer is engaged in an industry at present. The article goes on to say:

On amenities, perhaps the most important part of life on the farm today, the report paints a very unattractive picture. It says that only 13 per cent of farms had a piped water supply, 53 per cent had electricity. In all counties, the proportion of farms with electricity increased significantly with increasing size of farm.

Fewer than 14 per cent of farmers had tractors. Again the proportion of farmers with tractors increased significantly with increasing size of farm in all counties.

Only 14 per cent of farms on which milk is mainly sold had milking machines. But more than 60 per cent of milking machines were on farms with 15 cows or fewer.

Fewer than 25 per cent of farm homes had piped water; 21 per cent had toilets; 18 per cent had bathrooms; 75 per cent had electricity; 21 per cent had television; 3 per cent had telephones, and 26 per cent had cars. On the other hand almost 23 per cent of the farms had none of these specified amenities.

While the land in the West of Ireland cannot be compared with most of the land in Meath, Tipperary, Kilkenny or Offaly, this report should be enough to jolt everybody out of the laissez faire attitude that has grown up. There is a vast area in the West of Ireland that needs to be worked to its fullest potential. Industries there are rare enough. Part-time farming and industrial employment would be one of the ways of keeping people in the West of Ireland and in the 12 counties mentioned in this report. Although the question of part-time farming and industrial employment was dealt with on a previous occasion by a Minister of the Government, no definite recommendations have been made in regard to it.

In this context, the Government should fulfil its promise to move the Department of Lands to Castlebar and the Department of Education to Athlone. While this would not be sufficient to stimulate development it would be some help to the surrounding areas. We have become too complacent about the numbers leaving agriculture over the years, 10,000 to 12,000 each year. Those leaving are in the 17 to 32 age group or thereabouts. These are the young men and women who could revitalise Irish agriculture.

The population of Laois-Offaly, the constituency I represent, and of Longford-Westmeath has remained static. What has happened is that while many of the people there have gone out of agriculture there has not been enough industrial employment to keep them in the area. This report today is a harrowing and frightening one in its own way, but I hope it will have the effect of making every Government Department, everybody engaged in politics not alone in the West of Ireland but throughout the country, and everybody connected with farming organisations, sit up and take notice of its findings. I believe that Dr. Scully and others responsible for drawing up this report have done a very good day's work for this country. The report may not be very popular, but it is true. A number of years ago there was a report issued by the Industrial Research Institute which showed that under the heading of income per head, Laois came 25th out of 26 counties; Leitrim, in 26th place, was the lowest, and Offaly was in 23rd place. The principal employment in Laois-Offaly is agriculture. These are areas that need special attention from Government Departments. Only parts of Laois-Offaly get the benefit of industrial grants. Therefore, every possible effort should be made by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to help these counties. If this is not done, the numbers engaged in agriculture there will decline.

I believe it is important that the number engaged in agriculture should continue to increase. I have tabled questions at various times to the Taoiseach in regard to the numbers engaged in industry and those engaged in agriculture over the years and I have been told in reply that the number engaged in agriculture has declined and the Government are endeavouring to obtain employment for them in other industries. The Government have not succeeded in obtaining other employment for them. It is up to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to get rid of the idea that because the numbers in rural areas in England are declining we can accept it; that because it is happening elsewhere we should allow it to happen here. It is essential it does not happen here because agriculture is the main source of employment in this country.

The next point I wish to deal with is in relation to the horticultural industry. On the 6th November, 1969, a report was issued by the Irish Sugar Company. There was a heading in the Irish Times on the 6th November, 1969, “Irish Sugar Company reports substantial rise in profits and turnover”. There was an article written on that date which was headed “Sweet Success” which stated:

The figures published by Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta are so good that the first reaction on reading them for the uninformed may be to think that there must be a printer's error in the total.

This was the report for the year ended 30th April, 1969 and was a magnificent report. I am sure the chairman, Mr. Godsill, was very pleased to be able to show such fantastic results. One of the significant things, as reported at that time was:

Erin Foods turnover at £6 million was double that of the previous year, while its current sales were running at an estimated £7.5 million.

The article in the Irish Times further stated:

Erin Foods which had been operating at an annual loss of close on £2 million three years ago has progressively reduced that loss and it now stands at £299,000.

That was a wonderful report at that time.

Why has the situation changed so drastically since? This report of Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann dealt with farmers' produce, particularly horticultural produce such as carrots, fresh beans and celery. These items were grown throughout the country on contract. The people who benefited from this production were small farmers who were able to go into this type of production and make a profit from it. Those processing plants were spread through the country. There was one in Birr in my constituency. We also had Batchelors in Banagher. We had a processing plant in Tullamore, Midleton (County Cork) Carlow, Kilkenny, Tuam and several other places. It might have been more desirable from an economic viewpoint to have those processing plants in one or two areas, but it was better in the national interest to have as many of them as possible.

There was a report issued recently by Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann and there was a heading in the Irish Independent:“Big dilemma faces sugar company.” There was an article in the paper written by their business correspondent, Mr. Colm Rapple, which stated:

The annual accounts published today show a 41 per cent drop in the company's profits on the sugar side of the business. At £715,000 this profit was not enough to offset the massive £777,000 loss suffered by Erin Foods and the result after the payment of interest was a total loss of £98,000.

I understand the Taoiseach had discussions with the NFA, the BVA and a number of people interested in this type of production recently. As far as I am aware the Taoiseach promised to look into this matter and make some contribution towards the industry but I have not seen anything definite in regard to it. Vegetable production is a skilled job. The success of the farmers in producing horticultural products has been truly astonishing. In the notes on the main activities of the Department it is stated that there was an increase of 4,000 acres for the production of vegetables and fruit. The total acreage was 28,000.

This is a very skilled type of work and the farmer had to develop this skill. He had, of course, the benefit of the advice and experience of the horticultural advisers in the different counties. Farmers purchased all the machines they could to enable them to produce and harvest these crops. There must be some 2,000 or 3,000 people involved in the processing of these products. There would appear to be a temporary recession at the moment, but I am not satisfied that every effort possible was made to market these products. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance told us recently that we have no established markets outside the United Kingdom, other than Sweden and Spain, and that the United Kingdom accounts for approximately 82 per cent of our export market. It should be possible to find other export markets in Europe. The workers engaged in the processing industry should be satisfied that every effort has been made to find export markets. Trained personnel should be sent into Europe to establish markets.

The amount involved in this Estimate, £72,772,000, is a very big sum. The horticultural industry needs an injection of capital. I would ask the Minister to ensure that money will be made available for this very important industry. It is vital that the industry should work to the optimum of its capacity. It is possible that certain things could be done to improve the prospects of the industry. Quality and packaging could play a big part in ensuring that a market once obtained will be held. Only the best should, of course, be exported and every precaution should be taken to ensure that only the best is processed.

The Minister should also ensure that any financial assistance given is used to the best possible advantage to enable the industry to compete in Europe. There is quite an extensive home market too. It is available for exploitation. Whilst we must ensure that exports are of the highest quality, goods on sale on the home market should also be of the highest quality otherwise we may find foreign products coming in. It is essential that these factories be kept going because in the coming years there will be a ready market for our horticultural produce. Anyone who is au fait with horticulture will know that large numbers are employed in the industry. In Birr married women were able to supplement their husbands' incomes, boys and girls were able to work for a couple of hours in the evening and even men in full-time employment were able to supplement their incomes by working in the vegetable processing firms for a couple of hours each evening. It is essential that the factories be kept open because of the number of jobs they provide and also because of the number of people who are engaged in growing the produce for processing.

The tonnage of potatoes produced increased from 31,008 tons in 1969 to 47,587 tons in 1971. It is important to ensure that horticultural production is maintaned and that the people engaged in it do not lose heart. I attended a meeting in Tullamore one night; the hall was packed to capacity. Apparently the first farmer who rang Midleton and asked if they would collect his brussel sprouts was told they would not be needed. I discussed this matter with farmers from Offaly, Laois and Westmeath. They were all upset to find, having spent a year growing vegetables, that they were not needed. I understand most of them have received some compensation but I cannot say whether or not they have been adequately compensated. If proper sales drives were launched in countries like Britain, Sweden and Spain I believe we would be able to find markets for our produce. The loss of £770,000 by Erin Foods is enormous. Every effort should be made to overcome this loss and with proper marketing and enough sales personnel in Europe it should be possible to find markets for all our agricultural produce.

A provision of £450,000 has been made in the Estimate for the year 1971-72 for the small incentive bonus scheme. I am pleased this has been increased from £325 to £500 although I do not see any mention of this increase in the activities of the Department. This scheme encourages farmers to keep accounts. Farmers who rarely kept accounts have been forced under this scheme to keep proper accounts and for this reason alone the scheme is a good one. The scheme is open to farmers whose rateable valuation does not exceed £25 or whose acreage does not exceed 50 statute acres. This limit should be increased over the next year or two. Good arable land is rated higher than bog land. A farm with a rateable valuation of £25 or an acreage of under 50 acres is likely to be a small farm and probably much of the 50 acres will not be the best land.

There may be no need to raise the acreage. I understand there may be financial and other difficulties but the provision of £450,000 is not over-generous. I am pleased to see the amount has been increased and this is a good idea but with the fall in money values it is not over-generous. I think it would be feasible to raise the valuation to at least £40, perhaps, leaving the acreage at 50 or raising it to 60. This would mean that quite a number of farmers would be able to benefit from the scheme. If your valuation is only £25 it is impossible, or very difficult, to make a living and, therefore, I would ask the Minister to consider my suggestion. This would not mean a very great increase in the amount to be provided for 1972-73. Whenever possible the Minister should try to allocate more money for this scheme which is so essential. Much good has already been accomplished by it in helping many small farmers to acquire skill in keeping books and in working to set plans. A number of the agricultural instructors I know have gone to considerable trouble and undertaken much extra work in preparing farm plans for farmers and giving them instruction, ideas and other kinds of assistance to enable them to qualify and benefit under these schemes.

I come now to a matter that has been discussed by the different farm organisations, at Government level and by the general committee of the committees of agriculture as well as by the specific committees of agriculture. To be frank, a number of committees of agriculture are not very active and many may be somewhat lackadaisical but, in general, they are serving the country well and their members have done good work in the past. We are becoming very conscious of regions and enlarged groups. This is desirable in some ways but county committees of agriculture, as at present constituted, help to keep agricultural instructors in touch with their areas. They are the tentacles of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries reaching out into every parish or, perhaps, they are like the roots of the tree, the most sensitive parts of it, and the parts which do most good by bringing in the food on which the tree exists. Agricultural instructors reach out into the country and feed back information to their committees and to the Department. The committees themselves serve the same purpose and through the years they have functioned well.

I cannot say whether the regional health authorities will work well. I sincerely hope they do and I think all Members of the House share that hope because these bodies deal with the health of every individual in the country. In my view, they are certainly having teething troubles at present, to say the least of it. When the region is bigger there does not seem to be the same liaison and close relationship as when health authorities were looked after by the local county councils. Some county councillors, doctors and others have come to me to find out where they can get in touch with the man in charge of the health authority and they complain that they have been referred from one person to another. The idea seems to be that by changing we are certain to improve the situation but change in itself is not always good. It may not bring the benefits needed and, in fact, may have a detrimental effect. Before abolishing committees of agriculture it would not be difficult to grant my request—it is not a great deal to ask—that the Minister and his advisers should wait three years until they see how the health authorities work. At that stage the Department could move in and would have the structure, as in the health authorities, set out already and it would be very easy to weld it into position. There would be no administrative difficulty. Somebody may say: "Why wait?" We have a system that works well at present and until we see how the health authorities work we would be wise to hold our fire for a short time. The Department could, with benefit, wait for two or three years.

There is a doctor in the area and you know the man to whom you must go: agricultural instructors are somewhat different. In Offaly we have a CAO, an assistant CAO and about eight other agricultural instructors. Each of them is really servicing a different area and in each case the area is far greater than that of a dispensary doctor's. The contact is not on such a personal basis but, nevertheless, it is essential that there should be close liaison between the instructor and the farmers.

It is desirable that members of committees of agriculture be farmers, or at least be connected with agriculture. In Offaly all of the members of the committee of agriculture are associated with farming and know the problems of the rural community. Most of the farmers in Offaly are successful at their job because they are competent and are hard-working. Farmers know the members of the committee of agriculture in Offaly and frequently members introduce the instructor to the farming community in their area. These people are giving their time voluntarily and are performing a useful task. We should wait and see how the health authorities function before any steps are taken with regard to committees of agriculture.

It is essential that each county has its own committee and that each committee should be active in the area it serves. The man on whom much of the responsibility devolves is the chief agricultural officer. The CAO could be likened somewhat to a managing director of a firm, a man who plans out policy with the help of the members of the committee. It is essential that the CAO should be efficient at his job and responsibility rests on the Local Appointments Commission who make the appointments. When they are making these appointments they should take many factors into account. In Offaly the appointment of the CAO has been a wise choice. He is a hardworking man and has done valuable work; so far as I know the same point could be made about Laois where the officer concerned is a competent, dedicated man. It is up to the Department to ensure that the CAO is fully briefed and kept in touch with any changes in regulations made by the Department.

Before we make any changes in the structure of committees of agriculture, we should give the matter serious consideration. We should give serious thought to the situation that will exist when this local contact is abolished. The parish structure has been seriously undermined during the years and the numbers in rural Ireland are diminishing. This is something we regret but this tendency will be accelerated if committees of agriculture are abolished. Members of committees and the instructors attend meetings in different areas. They attend social functions organised by Macra na Feirme, Macra na Tuaithe, the ICA and the home advisers and in this way they contribute to rural life and help to provide recreation for the farming community. Those workers are not paid for this work and their efforts should be appreciated. Members of committees in Offaly and Laois attend these functions; there is much closer liaison than would be possible if there were regional boards in existence. It is essential that we wait for at least three years before we take any further steps with regard to committees of agriculture.

Every effort should be made to help horticultural production. Much capital has been expended on the horticultural industry in the provision of machinery and other essential equipment and the farmers have put much effort and toil into building up this industry. We should do everything possible to ensure that they do not lose confidence in this sector of agriculture. There is tremendous potential for this industry but only if it is carried out in an efficient and up-to-date manner. In Offaly, as in many other parts of the country, there is a considerable amount of bogland that could be developed. When the bogs are cut away the land could be used for the horticultural industry. I dealt with this matter last year on the Estimate and I shall not go into details now. At times horticulturalists and the staff of Bord na Móna have differences of opinion regarding soil and other matters. The soil in the areas is of a special loam type which is ideal for vegetable production. Consultations should be arranged with the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and Bord na Móna to discuss this matter. The soil is very suitable for horticultural production. The horticultural skills which we have amassed in a relatively short time must not be lost.

A proper utilisation of the agricultural labour force is essential. For the farmers, their sons and daughters who stay at home, and for farm workers, the allowance on the rates is £17. That has been the figure for years. We must provide some incentive to keep people working on farms. It is essential that skilled men remain working on our farms. Many workers would be only too pleased to work for farmers if the farmers could employ them. Since the Redundancy Payments Act came into force, on numerous occasions I have been in contact with the Department of Labour trying to get redundancy payments for farm labourers who have been let go because the farmers were unable to keep them on. It would be interesting to know the number of farm labourers engaged in agriculture now as compared with five or ten years ago. I have not seen the figures, but I am certain that the numbers are dwindling.

Farmers find it very hard to pay wages at present. No farm labourer will become a millionaire. In fact he is barely able to keep going. The wage is small, but it is very difficult for a farmer to find £17 to £19 at the end of the week for an agricultural worker. I already mentioned subsidised loans. It costs somewhere in the region of £1,500 to £2,000 to provide a new job in industry. I believe the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries should subsidise every farm worker to the tune of approximately £5 to £6 a week. The amount of money involved would not be excessive. Alternatively, the farmer should be given a much greater allowance on the rates.

I believe that a subsidy would have a far greater effect. It would keep workers on the farms. The benefits which the country would derive from a subsidy of £5 a week paid to farm labourers might be far greater in the long term than paying £1,500 to £2,000 to provide a job in industry. We must have regard to the number of redundancies and the closures of industrial firms. There is worthwhile employment in agriculture and farmers need intelligent, skilled workers to obtain maximum benefits from the farms. The subsidy I am suggesting might reverse the trend towards 10,000 to 12,000 workers leaving agriculture each year. That is a vast number of people. These are the people in the age bracket between 18 to 30 years. People of 50, 60 and 70 years of age are not leaving the land. We want to keep our young people in agriculture. A subsidy such as the one I mention might be an attraction.

I would also give this grant to farmers' sons who stay at home if the farmer is the registered owner of his property and is paying his rates and getting the benefit of the small farm incentive bonus schemes. I would not advocate that the farmer's daughter should get the same amount, but she should get some proportion of the subsidy as well. Capital must be invested wisely with advice and help from the agricultural advisory service. I mentioned specialised production of beef and vegetables. We must have proper marketing and we must get export markets. We must have properly trained personnel to get those markets for us.

It can truthfully be said that today, on the eve of making the most important decision that was ever made since the signing of the Treaty, that is, the decision on our entry into the EEC, Irish agriculture is in the doldrums. It is in the doldrums due to lack of leadership, lack of Government policy and lack of proper planning and proper foresight on the part of the present Minister and his predecessors. Where is the grand design? Where is the planning? Where is the programming that our Government and our Ministers should have been engaged in over the past five years? It is now nearly 14 years since the EEC was first formed. We were told, indeed, at one time that we might be in the EEC by 1965. We know that our hopes were dashed by General de Gaulle but, if our Government had foresight, ability and capability, that gave them a breathing space to prepare for the competitive period which now lies ahead.

I claim that so far as Irish agriculture is concerned, the past five years were wasted years. Instead of there being co-operation between the Department and the various farming organisations, instead of their being a grand design, our farmers were jailed when they sat outside the gates of Leinster House and demanded their rights. Let us not forget that agriculture is our main industry and that approximately 27 per cent of the population are engaged in farming and that directly or otherwise our farmers are responsible for 75 per cent of our exports while, at the same time, they are getting hardly 17.5 per cent of our national income. It was not for the good of their health that the farmers, a few years ago, left their wives and their homes and marched many miles to Dublin, they were marching so that they might get their rights because then, as now, they were not getting adequate recompense for the long hours of work they put into their farming. They were being treated in their own country as second-class citizens. At that time we had evidence of selective justice. I say this because, although other groups have marched on Leinster House, only the farmers were sent to Mountjoy for having done so. We know that our gardaí are decent men and most of them have a farming background but, at that time, acting under instructions, they had to arrest the farmers. Since then other groups of people have held meetings outside Leinster House but in some of those instances the Minister has sent to Radio Telefís Éireann for cameras and crews to receive them.

A few years ago, too, the Taoiseach and the then Minister for Agriculture appeared on television and stated that all the resources of the State, including the Gardaí and the Army, would be used to put down the farmers. I only wish the Taoiseach would appear on television tonight and say that all the resources of the State would be used in relation to the people who are bringing our country to the point of anarchy. I wish he would be man enough to do that.

We are discussing the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

I agree but we are entitled to point out why Irish agriculture is in such a state. At the time of the farmers' march a deliberate effort was made to initiate class warfare in this country. I have here a copy of the Sunday Press of the 12th March, 1967, a page of which was devoted to pointing out that the farmers were getting £55 million per year from the Government when, in fact, the actual amount they were receiving was less than £15 million. That was a deliberate attempt to divide the farmers and the townspeople. Any Government interested in the welfare of the country would not have tried to divide the people in that way. Indeed, one might say that in so far as agriculture is concerned, the present Government are worse than was Cromwell. Of course, that was done for political expediency because they wanted the votes of the city people at that time. They succeeded in their effort to divide the people whereas, it might be said, that Cromwell succeeded in uniting them.

All our troubles in respect of agriculture and, for that matter, in other industries, have stemmed from the Government crisis of 1970. Since then political credibility has reached an all-time low. The Government are divided among themselves and they have not had either the time or the energy to plan ahead. This division of the people has done untold harm to the country as a whole and the Government's complacency in respect of agriculture is costing us dearly. Their policy of standing idly by and all that has stemmed from that crisis of 1970 has given this entire country a bad name. Our tourist industry——

We are getting far away from agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has no responsibility for tourism or for many of the matters mentioned by the Deputy.

Tourists who had been coming to this country each year consumed between £50 million and £60 million worth of agricultural produce.

A debate on tourism would not arise on this Estimate.

I have no intention of debating tourism but merely to point out that as tourism has suffered, so, also, has agriculture suffered and this has been due to the complacent policy of the Government during the past three years. Not only that, but we now have a record 70,000 people unemployed. The real tragedy of agriculture can be attributed to the fact that we have not had a Minister with the vision of a Paddy Hogan or with the strength and character of a James Dillon. We have not had a Minister who is prepared to argue at Cabinet meetings on behalf of the farmers and to ask for a reasonable return for them. The figures I have quoted earlier cannot be denied. They were given to me in reply to a question I asked of the Minister not very long ago.

A firm foundation can be built on co-operation but no such foundation can be built on hatred. Our farmers are well organised through such bodies as the NFA, Macra na Feirme and the ICA. If the Government and the Department co-operated with these organisations, there would be progress. However, there has been no such co-operation during the past few years. Efforts have been made by some Ministers for Agriculture to use the jack-boot. When there was some chance of reconciliation and of the farmers coming together the minister of the day rushed out and threw petrol on the smouldering embers. The farmers today speak unitedly in demanding attention. There must be a limit to the endurance of any section of the community but in the case of the farmers that limit has now been reached. Surely this very important section are entitled to as much of the national cake as any other section. They are entitled to fair prices and stability and to a more equitable distribution of the national wealth. In every war in this country, national, social or economic, the farmers have been in the front line. Indeed in the last great war they stood between the people of this country and hunger. They have pulled their weight, they are pulling it today, but they are not getting what they are entitled to from the present Government.

They are the one section that has consistently supported Fianna Fáil.

I know. You can fool some of the people all the time and other people some of the time but I do not think you will fool them much longer. You have fooled them long enough. They are great people to live under Fianna Fáil. The Fianna Fáil Government told them in the past that the British market was gone and gone for ever. Read the Minister's speech now on the importance of the British market. Deputy Frank Aiken once told them: "Thank God, Ireland is no longer the kitchen garden of England." They are breaking their necks to get into it at present. A little man one time told us that they whipped John Bull left, right and centre and that they would whip him again if they got the chance. I remember being at a fair in Arva and I heard a man, who, at one time, said that no man was worth more than £1,000 per year—he now has more than £52,000—say: "The British market is gone. It is gone for ever and thanks be to God." He also said: "I have advice for the small farmers of County Cavan today. Instead of exporting your cattle to John Bull I would advise you to keep bees." That is what he told them at the fair at Arva. That cannot be denied.

Egyptian bees.

He went on to say that he knew, on very good authority, that the best type of bee to keep was the Egyptian bee. That is on the record. When he was here we said it to his face and he did not deny it.

They are prolific bees.

It would be God help this country now if we were running over with swarms of bees under this arm and swarms of bees under that arm to sell them to Britain.

There is money in honey.

In honeyed words.

There is a certain amount of money in honey and in honeyed words but the people you have fooled are beginning to find you out. The Minister's Parliamentary Secretary gave me figures a few months ago which showed that 28 per cent of the people of this country are responsible for 75 per cent of our exports directly or indirectly and are getting 17.5 per cent of the national income. Is that fair? Are they not entitled to a fair deal? Should we not have a just society? If it is our premier industry surely they should get justice? Unfortunately down through the years the farmers seem to have been like the farmer's own faithful collie that you can kick under the tail and he will come back wagging his tail to you. Even the farmers before long will get a little sense.

I have a better opinion of them than the Deputy has anyway.

Of course, if you have fooled them for so long. What are you going to promise them now? You have promised them in the West to drain the Shannon at every election and by-election for the past 25 years. It is still not drained.

Look at the price they are getting for their cattle.

The price they are getting is due to John Bull. Remember the time before James Dillon negotiated the Cattle Trade Agreement of 1948 when they were sold for the price of their hides—10s. If they are getting a good price for their cattle from John Bull today they need not thank Fianna Fáil. They may thank the man who had the foresight and ability in 1948 to negotiate that Cattle Trade Agreement which tied the price of our cattle to what the British farmer was getting. Since then, it did not matter how incompetent a Minister for Agriculture we had here, and we had some very incompetent ones, every time the British farmer got an increase we automatically got it. No thanks to Fianna Fáil; no thanks to any past member of the Fianna Fáil Party. Thanks to the man who had the foresight, and the inter-Party Government that backed him in making that agreement. The less you have to say about the price we are getting for our cattle at present the better. We are delighted we are getting that price.

Anticipation of our entry to the EEC is a bit responsible too.

Certainly. I am not denying that it is responsible to a large extent for it.

Failure by the Fianna Fáil Government to formulate a long-term plan for Irish agriculture has been, more than any other single factor, responsible for our failure to deal adequately with the nation's chronic social and economic problems and in particular to arrest the social and economic disintegration of large areas of the country. Deputy Enright dealt at length with the Report on the West. Many of us were in rural areas canvassing and we saw what was happening. It is unfortunate to see small farmers having to close their doors and emigrate to England.

We will see a lot more when we go into the EEC.

That is very debatable. I am prepared to debate that at any time with the Deputy.

The Deputy had better debate it with the farmers. They will be out of work.

If we join the EEC the farmer's income will increase by up to 40 to 47 per cent.

I do not accept that, but, even if I did the Deputy means the farmers that are left.

There is nothing to stop the farmers remaining on the land as they are today.

Has the Deputy ever heard of Dr. Mansholt?

In some of the European countries the farm structure is much smaller than it is here. In Denmark and England it is an average of 15 to 18 acres. Those people are remaining on the land and the farmers of Ireland will remain on the land and will have a much better standard of living than they have today. Anybody who could remain on the land during the economic war and with the bad Government we have had for the past 15 or 20 years certainly will remain on it when prices are increased by 40 to 47 per cent. I admit that their overheads may go up by 9 to 12 per cent but I do not agree with the Deputy that the farmers will be driven off the land.

It is a designed policy of the EEC.

It is far from being a designed policy to drive them off it.

Could we speak on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries?

Mansholt has stated that it is his aim to see that the farmer's income is at least as good as that of those engaged in industry and otherwise. He has further stated that anybody who wants to remain on a small farm is quite welcome to do so. Remember young boys and girls growing up today will not put up with what their fathers and mothers put up with. They will not trudge on the land seven days a week. Mansholt has stated that if they want what he believes to be an adequate income they will have to have at least 70 to 80 acres: a farm that would employ a farmer and his son or a farmer and his workman so that they could work a five or six day week. They do not want to drive them off but they will get an increased income. I see no reason why they cannot continue to live on the land. If there is the injection of money into agriculture—it is under-capitalised at present—not alone could we keep the number that is on the land at present but we could employ 60,000 to 70,000 extra people on the land.

It can be done. We have 12 million acres of the best arable land in Europe, and a population of only 2.8 million. Our land is under-capitalised. If the land were properly capitalised and if the farmers had the necessary capital to enable them to work the land to extract maximum benefit, not alone could the present numbers working on the land be maintained but an additional 60,000 or 70,000 persons could be employed. That would help industry because the increased earning power of those employed on the land would enable them to purchase more machinery, more fertilisers and there would be an increased demand for food. This would help to keep the wheels of industry turning and would create further employment. In view of the fact that there is very little coal and steel and other ores to be found in this country, the standard of living of our people must depend on the industry of the farmer, his wife and family, and worker to work the land profitably.

And the farmer will get all these benefits?

He said the farmer and his wife and family.

It is not in order to speak from outside the House.

What about the farmers in Belgium who marched on Brussels, they were so happy?

I want to tell the Deputy——

The Deputy should address the Chair.

The farmers in Europe are demanding higher incomes than they have today.

These are farmers in the EEC.

The workers of Europe have a higher income than the workers here.

The farmers are doing so well that they marched on Brussels and nearly wrecked the place.

Even so, their income is one and three-quarters the income of the Irish farmers. They are entitled to march if they see those in industry getting more than they get. They are entitled to go out and claim that they are primary producers who are working hard and who consider that they are not paid sufficient and that they want a greater share of the national income. The gap between those engaged in industry and those engaged in agriculture, in this country, was £3 10s per week in 1965; £4 10s per week in 1969 and over £5 in 1970 and is almost £7 today. Does anyone believe that the farmer, who is responsible for 75 per cent of our exports, directly and indirectly, should have to accept £7 per week less than those engaged in industry? Our principal producers are at least entitled to justice in their own country. They are entitled to a fair return for their work and their produce. They are asking for no more; they seek no less. They are entitled to it and if they take action within the law—I want to emphasise that because I have always advocated peaceful protest within the law—if they take action within the law, as far as I am concerned, they will have my support at any time in seeking a fair crack of the whip in their own country.

It is only right to point out that until recently agriculture produced almost all our exportable goods. Our land and climate were our principal natural resources. For the past 14 or 15 years, from the time of the inter-Party Government, the development of industries capable of exporting has made our national dependence on agriculture less absolute. Despite this, and even assuming maximum rate of industrial development in future, it can reasonably be accepted that satisfactory national development cannot be achieved—I emphasise that—without a comprehensive long-term and dynamic programme of agricultural development. Nor could any programme of industrialisation alone solve the very serious social and cultural problems which are the result of our not having had such a programme in the past.

Unfortunately, in the past, we have tried to build up industry at the expense of agriculture. The two must go hand in hand. You cannot have a prosperous industrial community with an impoverished farming community. It is fair to say that over the years very large sums of money have been spent by the Government in an effort to improve the farmers' incomes or, at least, to prevent them from deteriorating too much in relation to those in other sectors of the community. As I have already pointed out, despite the expenditure of that money the farmer's income now in comparison with incomes in industry and non-productive occupations is £7 a week less.

It may be claimed that the assistance to agriculture over the years has been on an essentially short-term basis. It has been in the form of subsidies of various sorts, subsidies designed to deal with pressing social demands rather than forming part of any long-term plan to improve the competitiveness or productive capacity of our farmers. That is the big mistake that has been made. Until the 1950s the Fianna Fáil Government were wedded to an agricultural policy of self-sufficiency. It was only after the second inter-Party Government had shown the potential for industrial development, aimed primarily at export, that the traditional Fianna Fáil ideology was abandoned. The progress achieved by industry since then was certainly due to the initiative of the late Deputy Norton and the late Deputy Gerald Sweetman. It is true to say that for more than 20 years no serious consideration was given to agricultural development. Instead, our effort was devoted to establishing industries under heavy protection, capable of supplying the home market with the widest possible range of goods. Not only was agriculture not seriously developed but the self-sufficiency policy in its extreme form implied the diversion of effort from agriculture. This was the mistake made for so many years.

We would all agree that this policy has now been totally abandoned but one of its lasting consequences was that the oppertunity to use the highly favourable war and immediate post-war conditions to secure a privileged position for our exports in the British market was lost and we have paid a very heavy price for that. During the World War, English people were rationed at one period to two ounces of meat per week. British ships were being sent to the bottom of the sea. The British people were on the verge of starvation. Despite the fact that we were an agricultural country which if we had had proper management at that time. should have been able to get a foothold on the British market and could have supplied the British with meat and other produce that they wanted badly at that time, because of the bad Government policy we were not in a position to do it. At that time we even had to import butter from the ends of the earth to feed our people.

It is only right to say also that we paid a heavy price for this in the period following. We had over-supplies and depressed prices for some of our major agricultural exports because there was no proper planning, no lead from the Government. We had what had become known as the hills and valleys of farming, and the more farmers produced, particularly of eggs and bacon, the less chance they had of selling their produce and this meant terrible experiences for many of the people who worked on the land.

Indeed, since 1945 we have had to watch our position seriously in the British market in regard to produce such as butter and bacon: our position in this respect deteriorated vis-á-vis other suppliers. This all happened because earlier farmers had been discouraged from producing for the British market and they became disinterested in it. Until recently no effort was made to bring our produce up to the quality standard demanded in outside markets and neither was an effort made to establish marketing arrangements comparable with those of our competitors. The result has been that our share of the British market for key agricultural produce has declined and we have had to be satisfied with prices well below those of our competitors.

This, in turn, has meant increased subsidies to compensate farmers. The whole trouble has come about because our marketing system has been and is antediluvian. Rather than aping the methods of the powerful nations, our emissaries abroad, living in palatial embassies, should have become our salesmen instead of donning their top hats and tails to attend functions here and there. We should have had aggressive young salesmen in England and other countries to promote the sale of our agricultural produce. As Deputy Enright said, we should have tried to set standards for agricultural produce but unfortunately we allowed too many get-rich-quick merchants to operate. We exported inferior produce which gave our exports a bad name. There was the occasion when we got a contract for lamb for a European market and we killed and exported old Wicklow ewes. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries at that time had not got their eyes open.

If we are to attain a place and to hold it in the competitive period that lies ahead of us in the EEC we must ensure that we produce the best and that our standards be improved and maintained not only in the matter of our exports but also of the goods produced for home consumption. We must get over any idea we may have had of trying to fool the people and particularly we must give value abroad. If we do this we can gain a hold on the European markets as well as satisfying our own consumers.

At this stage I think I should say a word in praise of Bord Bainne who have made great efforts. They have made possible the sale abroad of steadily increasing quantities of dairy produce at, I am glad to say, very good prices comparable with those received by our competitors. It is only right to say also that since their establishment Bord Bainne have steadily improved the marketing of Irish produce in a wide area.

At the other end of the scale, the Government have not taken proper action to deal with the problems facing our meat export trade. There has been strong pressure from the farming organisations in this regard. The result of the Government's inaction here has been shown by the threatened collapse and closure of some of our meat factories which this year were responsible for exports amounting to £50 million. According to the newspapers some of them are in a bad way and may have to let their employees go before Christmas. I hope the Government will come to their aid immediately so that their difficulties can be ironed out. The Government must also help and encourage the store trade. I say this, remembering that our dead meat trade gives much employment because apart from the processing of meat there is also the utilisation of the hooves, the hides and the offal.

In the document dealing with the main activities of the Department which has been circulated to Deputies we read that the quantity of milk supplied to creameries in 1970 was 514.1 million gallons, 2.4 per cent less than the previous year. This is the result of the Government's inconsistency from year to year. At one period they advocated increased milk production, at another period more tillage and then, with a change of Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, a concentration on beef production. We had the two-tier milk price system and other systems; we had chopping and changing, and the result has been that when farmers produced extra milk, extra cattle, extra sheep, the bottom fell out of the markets and farmers did not get the rewards they had merited.

With regard to horticulture, which is dealt with at page 29, I believe that not enough is being done at present for that industry. Deputy Bruton and Deputy Tully from Meath spoke at length on this subject because the farmers in their area were very much concerned. There was a man in Mullingar a few years ago who started exporting mushrooms to Britain, a huge market on our doorstep. He got very little co-operation from any Government Department and very little co-operation from Aer Lingus and in the end he had to scrap the hole project. He was employing five or six people and he kept at it. He was not a farmer; he was a townsman; and he kept at it for four or five years, but because he could not get the proper support from those people, he had to scrap it.

Our horticultural exports last year increased to £4.87 million in 1970 from £4.23 million in 1969. We have heard some of our agricutural instructors say that we have a market on our doorstep, and remember that horticulture and market gardening give employment to a lot of people on the land. You cannot do this type of work with heavy machinery and we should be very interested in employing more people on our farms. Therefore, there should be a greater emphasis on horticulture and market gardening, in view of the market we have so near at hand.

With regard to the land project, which is dealt with at page 51 of this document, everybody will have to agree, no matter what was said about it in the past, that it has proved a wonderful boon to Irish agriculture and to this nation. Over 1,000,000 acres have been reclaimed since this project was introduced away back in 1949. It has been money well spent, and in an undeveloped country such as ours where we have so many unemployed people, more money should be spent on projects of this kind. I cannot, for the life of me, see why anybody should be unemployed in rural Ireland and the Government should draw up an economic plan to put these people out working at this type of project, because many of the people who are drawing the dole, and who are a burden to themselves, would be quite happy to work at it when they would have continuity of work and a good wage. Money spent on this would be an asset to the people employed on it, would be a help to their families in enabling them to live in ordinary frugal comfort and would help to bring prosperity to the locality, to the county, and when the land has been improved, to the nation.

This is the type of work the Government should be more and more concentrating on, but instead we have longer and longer delays. In some cases farmers who make their application have to wait from two to two-and-a-half years before their lands are inspected and they are finally given the go ahead. I think more money should be devoted and more officials assigned to this work which is of such importance to each and every one of us and to the nation as a whole.

With regard to the farm building water supply scheme, this is a good scheme and is money well spent. The Minister in 1962 brought a Bill into this House providing that, in future, any farmer who built under this scheme would not have his rateable valuation increased and so have to pay increased rates. That was a good scheme and those responsible for it should get credit. The money is well spent because it is a well-known fact that a farmer cannot farm properly unless he has proper buildings, out-offices and silages and therefore the money spent on that scheme is money well spent.

With regard to the small farm incentive bonus scheme, eligible farmers now qualify for a bonus of £325, an increase from the figure of £300 from May 1970-71. This is a good scheme and everybody concerned with it should be congratulated on its success to date. Page 35 of this document deals with grants for forage harvesting equipment. This is a very valuable scheme but if it has any fault—and the Minister has heard this at committee of agriculture meetings—it is that the amount now is not sufficient, because of the cost of these forage harvesters and he should consider increasing it.

Under the heading of agricultural education, everybody will agree that with our entry into the EEC, those on the land should have a first-class education because if they are to adopt new technical skills and technical know-how in order to be as efficient as they need to be in the competitive world, better education than they have been getting in the past is needed. The agricultural colleges are doing wonderful work at present, but they go to these colleges for one year and many people claim that the term in not long enough and that to train a farmer properly, the classes should be extended. They claim that they cannot learn all they should learn in one year.

As regards the agricultural advisory services and the need for such services, we are all glad to see that since 1959 the number of instructors has increased from 164 to 373. The aim should be, as Deputy Enright said, and as the former Deputy Dillon said some years ago, to have at least one for each parish, and I would appeal to the Minister in that regard not to be hasty as far as the committees of agriculture are concerned because they have done good work down through the years. We know that many farmers have been conservative, that some of them have been lacking in initiative, and I remember, indeed, 15 or 20 years ago, if you talked to a farmer about an agricultural instructor, he would be inclined to tell you that if one of those boys came into his place, he would take a fork or a graip at him. Due to the work done by the Young Farmers' Club, by Macra na Feirme, the NFA and the committees of agriculture, all that has now gone by the board and the agricultural instructors are welcome into every farmer's place.

The Minister spoke on the reorganisation of our agricultural services on 5th August, 1970 and he said that the advisory service we know today has continued with very little change in its basic organisation since 1899. That may be quite true, but at the same time I would ask him to hasten slowly. He should be very slow to interfere with the committees of agriculture.

It is all very fine for bureaucrats from the Department to state that there should be changes. Deputy Enright asked the Minister about the functions of the board for three years. I have been a member of the health board in my county for a number of years. I believe that the regional health boards will end in failure. I ask the Minister not to be led by his civil servants and those who are inclined to get rid of the elected representatives on committees of agriculture throughout the country. Perhaps every agricultural committee is not as good as it should be. Politics have been introduced into some of them. That happened under different Ministers. These people come and give their time free of charge.

The former Minister, Deputy Paddy Smith, introduced a Bill about seven years ago and he made it mandatory on committees of agriculture to give representation to farming organisations. Three years ago there was a row between the farmers' organisation, the Government and the Minister and the Minister scrapped all that procedure. The procedure at the present time is too slow and cumbersome. At present, if a farmer wants to get rid of a boar, he gets in touch with the local agricultural instructor and the subject is raised at the next meeting, when it is agreed that the Department should be contacted. The Department delay in sending a reply and two months can elapse before anything is done. The working of the committees could be more efficient.

More power should be given to the CAO and the local committees. I see nothing wrong in giving the farming organisations representation on those boards or making it compulsory that members should be people engaged actively in farming. I appeal to the Minister not to listen to the advice of the bureaucrats in the city and in the Department who would like to take all control away from the elected members. These people have worked well over the years and should not be interfered with.

Under the heading of "Research" we see that a sum of £2,350,000 is being spent. An Foras Talúntais have done their work very well. They should be complimented on it. They have spent their money well. Under the heading of "Animal Health and Veterinary Research" I feel that we are not doing enough in this country. We lose every year between £5 million to £10 million worth of cattle, sheep and pigs because vets are not called in time. Farmers are inclined not to call the vet until the animal is too sick to recover. Farmers are inclined to dose their animals and wait for a few days before sending for a vet. We have medical cards for certain people in our society. The doctor attends such people and the State pays him. A similar scheme should be introduced for small farmers to entitle them to get veterinary assistance which would be paid for by the State. I have had to get a vet three times for a particular animal at a cost of nine guineas. Many small farmers have not got enough money for such service. If vets were called in time we would save millions of pounds worth of stock per year.

The brucellosis scheme has been in operation now for two years. Certain counties in the west and the midlands were dealt with first. Some are free. The scheme is in operation in other counties at present, including Westmeath. There is one great fault with this scheme. This concerns a farmer outside the scheme where his herd becomes infected. I remember two cases in Westmeath a few years ago where there was a serious outbreak of contagious abortion. Each of the farmers concerned asked for advice and veterinary inspectors came down from the Department. Each man was a farmer with a young family and each asked the inspector what he should do. There was no scheme to cover such cases and each man was told that he would not get compensation but that he should send the animals to the factories where he would get half the price of the cows.

One man went to an auctioneer and sold his cows on the open market and got a good price for them. Nobody knew about the disease. This man sold to people other than neighbours and by doing so he spread the disease to 30 or 40 different farmyards in different parts of the country. The other farmer was an honest man with a conscience. He said that he had bought one of his cows without knowing of the disease which was affecting it and that he would not be responsible for robbing anyone else the way he had been robbed himself. He decided to send the cows to the meat factory and although they had cost him about £100 he received an average of £43 per cow from the factory. This man was doing something to save our nation at a personal loss of £50 per cow. I brought his case before the Department and before the Minister. Great sympathy was expressed but he got nothing. He got the sympathy of the Department which was of no use to himself, his wife or his bank manager. If a herd is affected in any part of the country the farmer concerned should be assisted. If a herd is affected within a county which has an eradication scheme the whole herd will be taken away and the farmer paid but if this happens 100 yards outside the border ten or 20 of a man's herd can be affected and can abort and that man is allowed to sell those cows and to spread the disease across the country. He is allowed to sell those and to spread the disease throughout the country. That is completely wrong and the Department should do something about it.

The bovine TB eradication scheme has made great progress, but, as I said here years ago, herds did break down. Why? Because, unfortunately, there were vets who when they came to examine cattle a second time looked over the gate at them or just counted them. That was known to the Department. Action was taken against some vets all right, but others got away scot-free. People caught at the North Wall five or six years ago, were able to get the blue card for cattle that were not even attested; and while an official was sacked from the Department at that time, the people who were engaged in this criminal action went scot-free because of political pressure. Stern action should have been taken from the very beginning against the vets concerned. I know young vets who went into farmers' places and were told: "If you put down a beast of mine you will never get another job from me." The farmers who stooped to that should have been brought before the courts and justice meted out to them. Because of that, the British Minister for Agriculture, if my memory serves me rightly, got cattle last year that reacted and also heifers that were supposed to be maiden heifers not in-calf but that proved to be in-calf. The Department have been lax in this regard for some years, and any of those people who have been acting in this fashion in the past should be dealt with immediately their activities come to the notice of the Department.

New opportunities are opening up for Irish agriculture and for this country. We are now entering a period when world conditions in agricultural trade are again turning more in favour of the producer. In many countries industrialisation is moving ahead faster than food production. This will create increased purchasing power for food. Even in countries which have a very low standard of living, their markets are opening up. A dramatic example of this is the situation in Japan where a very large market is opening up for Australian and New Zealand meat and dairy products. That will help us immensely, because, in the past, Australia and New Zealand were sending their products to England, which affected Irish farmers adversely, because the bottom often fell out of the market. With the market in Japan for New Zealand and Australian products, we have a wonderful opportunity of getting into the British market and holding on to it.

Membership of the Common Market will involve a dramatic improvement in the terms of trade for our agricultural produce. The Common Market price system is broadly based on making the consumer pay sufficient for his food to give an economic return to the producer. For Irish farmers this means that Britain will no longer be able to pursue her traditional cheap food policy. Instead of subsidising her own farmers she will be forced to pay economic prices for our exports to her. If our farmers get those prices, prices to which they are entitled, their income will increase anything from 35 to 40 per cent over what it is today. As many of our farmers are only on subsistence level at present, that will be a welcome development for them.

However, unless we move energetically now to prepare our agricultural industry, we shall not be able to take proper advantage of the new conditions. If the opportunity is not to be missed again, as it was missed during the last war, we must carry out a long-term plan for agricultural development. Such a plan must contain a large-scale programme of investment to secure increased production and lower costs, involving comprehensive marketing arrangements to secure outlets for increased production at top prices for those exports.

Irish agriculture has been undercapitalised for a number of years. The farmers have not had capital to invest in agriculture. Therefore it is essential now, even though it may be late, to get a long-term plan for investment in agriculture. Any long-term plan for investment must stand on two basic principles: first, projects for investment in agriculture must be subject to the normal criteria for other forms of investment, namely, they should offer an economic return on the capital put into them; secondly, the emphasis in granting financial assistance to agriculture should be on reducing costs and increasing output. We have the best land in Europe, 12,000,000 acres of fertile soil. We have the farmers who are prepared to work it, and who have proved in the past that given the proper lead they can move in the right direction.

Today more than ever before the farmers are organised. The farmers and their organisations are interested in their future. They are coming together in their organisations, and if they are demanding what they are entitled to, there is nobody to blame them.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 15th December, 1971.
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