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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 29 Feb 1972

Vol. 259 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 27: Oifig an Aire Oideachais (Atógáil).

D'atógadh an díospóireacht ar an dtairiscint seo a leanas:
Gó ndeonófar suim fhorlíontach nach mó ná £10 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun íoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mártha, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Oideachais (lena n-áiritear Forais Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon), le haghaidh seirbhísí ilghnéitheacha áirithe oideachais agus cultúir, agus chun ildeontais-i-gcabhair a íoc.
—(Aire Oideachais.)

I was speaking earlier about the position of Ballycastle School, County Mayo, and I read a letter to the Department from the Ballycastle Development Committee and from the sisters there in relation to the position into which the Department have put the people of Ballycastle. I would at this time ask the Minister to reconsider this position. According to departmental regulations a decision has been taken whereby certain schools must be closed. Have we any faith in our own country? Am I convinced that from now on the west of Ireland will die? On the contrary, I am convinced, as an elected Deputy from the west of Ireland, that the population of that area will increase tremendously in the next ten years. I am firmly convinced of this despite what people tell me. When we enter the EEC I can see every square inch of land in the west developed and producing something which will be an asset to our economy. I cannot understand why the Minister and his Department should now cut off a senior cycle from a school in a small town in north Mayo. I can assure the Minister that, if he goes ahead with this proposal, the reaction to his party in that particular area will be 100 per cent against him. All the public representatives there were at the meeting. I appeal to him now to reconsider his decision. Surely he could give them at least another five years and, if something does not happen, then remove the senior cycle. The people are seriously concerned about this.

Where primary schools are concerned, there is a tendency to amalgamate sechools in several parts of the county. Some amalgamations have been very successful and there have been no protests. However, I want to draw the Minister's attention to one particular school. Deputy Flanagan, the Minister for Lands, and I attended a meeting which was called for the purpose of keeping Creevagh school open. There were 35 children on the roll and that school was kept open; today I saw an advertisement for an assistant teacher there. There is another school on the other side of Crossmolina with an average of 42 pupils on the roll. An effort was made to close this school. The elected representatives, the parents and the children had a meeting and the Minister and his Department decided the school would stay open. Right beside me the school in Derrough was amalgamated with Clogheen. Strong representations were made to the Minister by everybody concerned to keep that school open. There were 45 children on the roll. The Minister and his Department saw fit to close it. I demand an explanation as to why a school with 33 or 35 pupils on the roll is kept open while a school with 45 pupils on the roll is closed. At the moment considerable development is taking place in Claremorris. This school was only 2½ miles from Claremorris and in the next three to five years I could see as many as 60 or 70 children attending that school. Why were two schools kept open? Why was this particular school closed? I demand an explanation. If there is a change of Government in my time I will see to it that this position is rectified. I have hope in the west. I have hope in my area and I do not like to see schools like this being closed. This appears to me to be victimisation.

There are several national schools in my constituency which have no running water and only dry toilets. The Church of Ireland school in Ballina is in that position. Will the Minister be honest with the people and tell them straight if the money is not there to provide these amenities?

There are school which need extensions. The school in Balla needs an extra classroom to accommodate the children from Prizon. The question is: why the Department insisted on amalgamation in this case when they did not have enough accommodation? There was sufficient accommodation for the Balla children but not enough accommodation for the other children. Surely schools should be kept open until the accommodation problem has been solved. Keeping the schools open would not have cost anything extra.

Transport is supposed to be provided. Now I have here a letter signed by the Minister's Parliamentary Secretary. It reads:

You made representations to me on behalf of Mr. Patrick Dunleavy, Mr. Patrick Smyth and Mr. James Kilkenny, Derrough, Kilkelly, with a view to the provision of free transport for their children to Kilkelly National School.

The matter has been investigated, and no child was found to be eligible for free transport under the conditions of the free transport scheme.

In order to warrant the setting up of a transport service to a national school the number of eligible children in any locality must be sufficient to sustain a minimum daily average of 10 eligible children being conveyed, each term. Eligible children are chillren between 4-10 years of age who have a distance of at least two miles to travel to their nearest suitable national school, and children older than that who have a distance of at least three miles to travel to such a school.

The investigation also revealed that none of these families reside in the former Shammer school district and that the older children of the Kilkenny and Dunleavy families did not attend Shammer prior to it's closure in 1965.

All the Kilkenny children for generations past have attended Shammer national school. Two Kilkenny children were on the roll. Why was that particular school closed? I know the Minister does not really know the position. These things are happening and I draw them now to his attention. I hope he will deal with them. There is quite serious trouble so far as transport is concerned. I have the greatest respect for Department regulations. People must abide by regulations. Sometimes regulations, in so far as they affect my county, appear to be dishonest. In a townland in County Mayo there are four or five families living within a radius of 100 yards. The children of one family get free school transport. There should be elasticity in the regulations so that all the children in that townland get free transport.

In County Mayo there are several schools which are doing a wonderful job. In so far as vocational education is concerned I must compliment the teachers. I am not an educationalist but I feel that the members of the commission concerned with education some years ago made a great mistake. Extensions should have been built to the secondary schools in order to provide vocational education. If that had been done we would have saved millions of pounds. In Ballyhaunis and Kiltimagh the children in the vocational school are denied access to the senior cycle. I am not blaming the present Minister for this.

We should not have two sets of teachers' organisations. We should not have vocational and secondary education. The people planning the education of this country should have looked at the economics of the situation. If they had done so, we would not have teachers' strikes. There may be another strike soon. What will the children who are hoping to sit for their leaving certificate do if they feel that their papers will not be corrected? The vocational, primary and secondary teachers in my area are first-class people. They are all doing a good job.

I live in a small town with a population of less than 2,000 people. We have three first-class schools—the vocational school, the convent school and the secondary school. Are the Department right in having three schools here? This should be examined. A man earning £5,000 a year should not be entitled to free education for his child. He should be paying £15 or £20 a term for him. His child might have more respect for him if he did so. I feel in all sincerity that if this money was collected and made available for the extension of our universities it would be better. I have a son working day and night to get to university. The leaving certificate has been upgraded so much that it is probably equivalent to a BA or something like that.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to a problem in connection with vocational education in County Mayo. I have a letter from a boy attending the regional technical college. It reads:

My problem is concerned with the distribution of grants tenable at the new Regional Technical Colleges by the Mayo Vocational Education Committee. I feel that I am being discriminated against by the existence of a clause which says that I must have passes in two applied science subjects in my Leaving Certificate, a clause which effectively eliminates me and every other secondary school pupil in the county from the grant. The fact that rate payers' money is being used should entitle every student to the grant and not the chosen few, the vocational students.

I am doing a course in business studies in the Regional Technical College, Athlone, and have passes in more subjects in the Leaving Certificate than are required either by this college itself or by the Department's scheme for the grant having got passes in Geography, Latin, Mathematics, Physics, Irish (higher paper) and honours in Economics and English.

The fact that I am the eldest of a family of four, my father is dead, so my mother has to look after our farm, puts extra strain on our family which would certainly be alleviated by my securing a grant.

Finally I think that if a vocational student with a bare pass in his Leaving Certificate secures a grant while a secondary school student does not, the student with the grant may not be capable of going through with his higher education, but instead drop out, thereby lowering the prestige of Mayo schools, both secondary and vocational, and students who may have been capable of getting their qualifications and thereby increase in some way the wealth of Mayo have been left unaided.

Trusting that you will look into the matter, and that something can be done about this situation.

I have letters from two students about this. The letter I have quoted is from a boy whose mother has only ten acres of land. His father was killed in a road accident. It is hard to think that he cannot get a grant to one of these schools. He has asked me to raise this matter and I have done so in order to bring to the notice of the Minister the position that has arisen in County Mayo.

We had a vacancy for a headmaster in the vocational school in Kiltimagh recently I do not know whether the Minister's Department is involved in this or not but a few of his inspectors certainly would be. The appointment was made and the man appointed was a man from outside the county. After getting the appointment, this man dropped out. We have sufficient people within our county capable of taking up such an appointment and I greatly resent the suggestion that we have not got people in our county who are qualified for such posts. This is also resented by the vocational teachers organisation in County Mayo and I hope this kind of thing will never happen again.

The fact that the Minister's Estimate amounts to almost £83½ million speaks well for the part which education plays in our whole set of values in this country. At the same time, we must not be complacent because we spend £83½ million on such an important subject as education and it has been asked here whether in spending such an amount of money on education we have a real philosophy of education. Do we know where we are going and are we doing it by ad hoc means, a sort of start and jump policy, which we have never really matched up to that of other countries of comparable size and wealth?

There is no doubt that the speeches of Opposition spokesmen on education to any person outside this country must give a very strange picture of what happens in Irish schools. I believe that we have a policy and a philosophy of education and, while I do not want to make this a party issue, I feel that the Fianna Fáil Party, from its foundation, and the Fianna Fáil Government have always given education a very top priority, and rightly so. We have produced some very great Ministers for Education and, while it is invidious to mention names, I take the risk of mentioning two, the late Seán Moylan and the late Donagh O'Malley. One could apply the story of Moses to this as a parallel, in the fact that Moses led his people to the sight of the Promised Land and then died, Joshua being left with the leadership, to achieve the goal which both of them had always held and believed in.

Ministers for Education in Fianna Fáil Governments share the same ideals of education as the men I have mentioned and as did the founders of the party. It has always been the policy of the party to press forward at the highest possible rate towards achieving the best possible system of education. The present Minister is just as able and as adequate to the task as were his predecessors. He has had perhaps a much rougher time in the last year because of the fact that he put forward proposals for the establishment of community schools and other changes in the educational system. For these he was maligned, threatened, picketed and all the rest. Yet in respect of the action of a man who one felt had something good and honest about him, be it said with shame of some of the Labour Party and Fine Gael spokesmen on education that they have introduced a sectarian note, the Fine Gael spokesman on education having the audacity to say that they would not accept the Minister's plans unless they guaranteed religious freedom for both Catholics and Protestants. Speaking here as a Member of the Fianna Fáil Party, I want to say that never in the history of our party can anyone suggest there was any bigotry or sectarian outlook on our party and we reject the claim of Fine Gael to being the champions of religious freedom.

Since the inception of this party we have been made up of men and women of different creeds and we take pride in the fact that we represent a wide spectrum of society. We have all classes and creeds in our party and there is no need for any man to stand up here, as the Fine Gael spokesman did, and put himself forward as the champion of religious freedom. This will be rejected by both Protestants and Catholics as a mere vote-catching stunt and an insult to the intelligence of the Protestants, Catholics, Jews and any other persuasions we have in the country. We are not going to get a healthy educational system if we are to have it debated with a view to catching votes. We have to be honest with ourselves and seek to get the best possible system. If today the youth are so cynical and so sceptical about Parliament and the Establishment, there is nothing that makes them more sceptical and cynical than claims such as the Fine Gael claim that they will stand as the guardians of religious freedom. They know that in this country there is no need for that. We may do a lot of things here, but in this part of the country we have succeeded in showing that we appreciate that each man has a right to adore God in his own way and never at any time have we tried to legislate, nor would we do so, against a man's beliefs.

We have made strides, especially in the last five years, in the educational field; but the fact is that we cannot stand still and become complacent. It is not the intention of the Government, or of this party anyway, that we should ever become complacent, because all the time the system is changing and the whole structure of life is changing. Twenty or 25 years ago when people were leaving school, they went into a job eventually if they could get one, and then stopped learning. Today because of the more affluent society we have, when the vast majority of people leave the primary school, they take post-primary education and many but not enough go on to university. In the last 30 years society has changed much for the better in this country and in much of Europe but we are still in this period of change and, therefore, our educational establishments must be geared towards change for the better so that we can offer further educational facilities to young people who wish to pursue their education and who have the ability to do so.

It was inevitable that some hard words should have been said about our educational system. It might be said that this House has failed in its approach to educational policy when we hear Deputy Desmond say that any Minister for Education, whether in the Six Counties or in Britain, is better than our Minister. He referred to Mrs. Margaret Thatcher—I assume she is the British Minister for Education—and Captain Long, the Northern Minister for Education; according to the Deputy both are much more progressive than our Minister.

For some time past Deputy Desmond has been pursuing the line that Fianna Fáil are bigots, that we must be watched or otherwise we will perpetrate terrible things on the minority. I challenge Deputy Desmond on this point but, of course, he is well aware that his statements are not true. It suits his purpose to make such statements in this House and outside it. This gives valuable ammunition to people outside this country; they can refer to such statements and say they were made in our Parliament. These statements, although they are untrue, do considerable damage to this country at a time when we are making every effort to perfect the educational system here. We do not mind honest criticism but we are entitled to expect that the criticism would be based on truth.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien made an amazing speech. In volume 259, at column 247 of the Official Report, he stated:

In some of our schools we are turning out little IRA. That is a problem at which we have, I think, to look. Some of the people concerned in these movements are teachers.

The Deputy has accused teachers of teaching the children to become members of an illegal organisation. At column 246 of the same volume, the Deputy stated:

Specifically let me put this question—I put it in no light spirit— were the seeds of Aldershot sown in some Irish classroom?

I presume he is referring to the terrible happening at the British Army barracks last week when seven people were brutally killed in an explosion. Deputy FitzGerald, the Fine Gael spokesman on education, said: "Hear, hear". I am not sure if Deputy FitzGerald meant that he believed Deputy Cruise-O'Brien or whether he approved of it. One can imagine the use that will be made of such statements by the British propaganda service.

I am sure all Members in this House were educated in Irish schools and that they know the kind of schools we have here. I was educated in a poor part of the city but it had one advantage in that it was a mixed area with people of different religions. However, there was no bigotry; the Protestant children were as poor as we were, and our time was occupied in trying to live. This is my background and I resent all the more this statement from Deputy Cruise-O'Brien who has been given many advantages by the society he attacks. I would ask him to come out and name the schools who are training boys to become members of an illegal organisation. At column 247 of the same volume he stated:

I should be just as concerned if I knew my children at a young impressionable age were being taught Irish history from a Sinn Féin or IRA point of view. If I knew they were being indoctrinated in this fashion I should be literally just as concerned as I would be if I knew they were in contact with people who were pushing drugs.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien said that he does not want any witch-hunt although he has attacked the Irish teachers by saying they are training young people to become members of an illegal organisation.

He also quoted Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin who was a good hand at witch-hunts, but he does the Senator proud when he attacks the Irish teachers. It is strange that nobody in this House has taken up the challenge on behalf of the teachers, although it may come later. The Minister is a teacher and I hope that in his reply he will have something to say about this slander. The Deputy did not say if the teachers were Catholic or Protestant, lay teachers or clerics, He said he did not want to generalise but this is what he did. To suggest that anyone would teach young people to place bombs in Aldershot or any place else——

(Cavan): Deputy Cruise-O'Brien was speaking about the teaching of Irish history.

I am quoting the Official Report.

(Cavan): The Deputy is misquoting.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien said:

I put it in no light spirit—were the seeds of Aldershot sown in some Irish classroom?

(Cavan): I have pointed out to the Deputy that he was referring to the teaching of Irish history.

The Deputy should not try to interpret the speech for me. Let the Deputy judge for himself.

(Cavan): The country has interpreted it and most of the people agree with what Deputy Cruise-O'Brien said.

I will quote what Deputy Cruise-O'Brien said, both inside and outside the House. Unlike Deputy Cruise-O'Brien I did not go to secondary school or university but I do not begrudge him the chance he had. I received my education in primary and vocational schools. I know the teachers were dedicated people who worked hard to ensure that their pupils became good citizens. This is the thanks that they get for their efforts.

Out of the great contributions from Deputy FitzGerald, Deputy Desmond and Deputy Cruise-O'Brien we may learn a little about all the trouble that was created regarding the Minister's proposals some time ago. People are seeing through the haze of sectarian propaganda and I am glad that the Minister has succeeded in getting across the message of truth. Having said that, I wish to offer some criticism of the Minister and his Department.

May I ask the Deputy a question? Were not the writings of the historians slanted toward our being expected to hate the British?

(Cavan): Of course they were.

I am not blaming the teaching orders. I am blaming the history books.

The Deputy is blaming the historians who wrote the books.

History is the lie which has been agreed on. It is as simple as that.

I appreciate Deputy Corish's question.

The period after the Tan war. I was going to school around the 20's and 30's.

I was being thrown out of bed at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning by the Black and Tans.

I do not accept what Deputy Corish has said but, if that is so, is it any worse than telling the English boy that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton.

I suppose Deputy Coughlan's remark about history is pretty valid.

The lie that has been agreed on.

The English boy is taught that, if he goes to Eton or Harrow, he will become an officer and a gentleman, and he must go out then and subdue the lesser breeds. I do not intend to criticise the English educational system. Strangely enough I think parts of their educational system are excellent. I do not think we should have a tirade from Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on the education in our schools, or a speech from Deputy Desmond lauding the British Tory Minister for Education and Captain Long in the North. I do not know whether these people are competent. I presume they must have some competence to have achieved their posts. I object to the suggestion that they are far ahead of our Department.

My criticism is that the Minister should review the possibility of establishing an open university. Most other countries in the world are doing this. This would be of tremendous help to the expansion of education and a tremendous amount of money could be saved. The idea of an open university has been examined but I would urge the Minister to have it examined further. It has great possibilities.

We have done very little about adult education. I want to say a very unpopular thing now because it is very unpopular today to praise a religious order. The extra mural courses in University College, Dublin, were started by the Jesuits. Were it not for the Jesuits, thousands of men and women in this city who had only primary certificate education would never have been admitted through the doors of Earlsfort Terrace. Twenty years ago or more that great Jesuit, Father E.J. Coyne, pioneered classes in adult education. They are still going ahead. It may be suggested that the subjects being taught were more academic than practical. Adult education must be more than doing a course on the value of antiques. We must go on perfecting ourselves in the educational sphere.

We are also very much behind in the education of handicapped people. We could do a great deal more for people who are physically and mentally handicapped. I appreciate what is being done, but I do not think enough is being done. We are inclined to drag our feet and say we must make sure we have enough classes to cater for the boys and girls who are taking post-primary education. This is a big consideration. We must have a system under which each person, irrespective of his age or background, will have the opportunity of acquiring new knowledge and perfecting himself and becoming a better citizen.

I heard criticism here to the effect that parents are not involved enough in the education of their children. This is complete poppycock. When we consider the sacrifices they are prepared to make to send their children to post-primary schools and to university, we realise what they are prepared to do. The home and the school are the two great training places for our youth. With a good family background and a good educational system there is no reason why we should not be as well educated as the Europeans.

I often think that we should gear our educational system towards the West German system. The Germans were beaten to their knees at the end of the Second World War but, by their hard work, they have resurrected themselves financially and economically and educationally. Today Germany is one of the leading countries in Europe, despite the fact that it is still partitioned. The Germans have done such a good job that thousands are trying to come across from East Berlin into the West because of the superior way of life there. I know the cynics can only say that they would not be so superior if the Americans had not poured money into Germany. This is quite true. American generosity has helped. The spirit of the German people provided the Free University of Berlin and their other famous universities. Their educational system was geared towards helping their citizens to build up their country from the ruins of 1945 to the affluent society of today.

I imagine that the Germans stress what we call vocational education. They do not suffer, as we do in some respects, from a touch of snobbishness. A boy going into a white collar job is looked upon as being superior to the boy working with his hands in some trade. This is a fault of the Irish, perhaps because of an inferiority complex. There are parents who think that their boy should be a doctor and they force him into that profession. If he could take an aptitude test earlier on, the boy could show where his potential lay, whether in the professions, or as a motor mechanic, or a carpenter, or a bricklayer, and the parents would accept that. This is the choice we should be able to give to our young people. This is the choice the young Germans have.

I was at an exhibition in the magnificent town hall in Copenhagan one September at which all the professions and trades were represented. A boy or girl could go in there and be given full information on the prospects in any profession or trade. I served on the Dublin Vocational Education Committee for many years and I know there are aptitude tests but I think they are on a very limited scale. They must be widened.

We have the two colleges of technology in Kevin Street and in Bolton Street of which we can be justly proud. The people have put money into these two colleges. They are paying excellent dividends, not financial dividends perhaps. From Bolton Street we have got some of the leading architects in the city. I would hope that whenever the merger between Dublin University and University College, Dublin, comes about, a place will be found for these two colleges in the new university of Dublin. They should not be left out on their own. They should become part of the new university.

Physical education is at last being given its rightful place. However, a teacher told me recently that he went to purchase equipment and could not obtain it. It is not yet realised that physical education is just as important as academic education. The Minister, when replying to the debate, might tell the House what plans he has for the promotion of physical education in schools and for providing properly equipped gymnasia in schools.

I would ask the Minister to have another look at some technical and vocational schools. In my constituency there is one which was built at the turn of the century as a school of navigation. This school has become decrepit. The roof leaks. There is ground damp. The teachers and pupils perform wonderful work despite these drawbacks. For at least ten years I have been asking Ministers for Education to have the school rebuilt. I refer to Ringsend School in the Port of Dublin. I make a special plea for this school, not because it is in my constituency, but because it is one of the oldest schools in existence and requires complete overhaul or should be demolished and rebuilt. The same may apply in the case of other schools. I would ask the Minister to make the decision this year to have this school rebuilt.

I would hope that when we are discussing the Estimate for Education next year we will be doing so in a calmer atmosphere than we have at the moment and that we will not have Deputies like Deputy Desmond, who joins us now, or Deputy Cruise-O'Brien——

What were we doing?

——making irresponsible statements.

God help us.

God help you. The Deputy has been labelled in a way which does not augur well for his future. It should be possible for Members to discuss Education without trying to make political capital.

In his introductory statement the Minister has given an account of his stewardship and has made predictions as to what will happen in the future. I do not want to praise the Minister while he is in the House but, last year, when things were rough, he showed that he was as dedicated as his predecessors were to the task of providing a good system of education.

There have been very good contributions from some Members of the House designed to help in producing a proper system of education. Unless our system of education is such that it suits our beliefs and aspirations, it will fail. We do not want a system which will produce boys and girls who are copies of those in a nearby island. We want a system which will produce good men and women who will play their part in a European society. The basis is laid in the home. The rest is the responsibility of our teachers. I should like once more to voice my appreciation of the work being done by the teachers, regardless of the slanders made on them in this House.

I shall speak as briefly and as sensibly as I can on this very important Estimate. I had no intention of intervening in the debate but, having regard to the discussion that has taken place, I feel it my duty to voice my opinion on the subject of education.

When we discuss education we must parse and analyse what we mean by education. To some, education means studying Euclid, to others it means Shakespeare, to others it means studying the writings of some numbskull that were completely illogical and remote from reality and which should never have been introduced into any school curriculum.

My idea of education is that it should inculcate commonsense, a sense of reality. The curriculum should be so designed as to produce a student who can think for himself and who can come to a decision. The whole system of education should be designed so as to produce the best in every student and to direct him into the vocation for which he is most suited. Every educational opportunity should be provided to prepare students for their place in society.

We all know persons who were in the national school up to the day that they were confirmed and who then went out into the world and were a great deal better than those who may have had every possible university degree but who could not make up their minds as to what day of the week it was. I know young boys and girls who, on leaving school, had the commonsense to know what the world is all about and how they should live their lives.

I do not know who it was who got the far-fetched idea that the small primary school is a thing of the past and that the village schoolmaster, of whom Goldsmith wrote, was a thing of the past. The day has gone of the wonder "How one small head could carry all he knew". Now we have to believe what some nitwit or numbskull may have written. My translation of the word "education" is "reality", ability to face facts and to make a decision and not to run away from reality and to hide behind some quotation from something written 50 or 100 years ago. Our young people should be so educated that they can make independent judgments and not have to rely on others to tell them what is right and what is wrong.

Here we come back to the primary school, the small unit where boys and girls are mixed, perhaps, 50 or 60 or even 100 in some dilapidated shacks of schools 100 years old or more without any facilities except playgrounds of rough cobblestones. Because of the lack of the money that should have been put into these schools we now have the bright idea of herding all the children into one big building. They will get the morning bus at 8 a.m., be carted to school and be carted back at 6 p.m. They will go home and do their exercises, go to bed and begin again the next day. That is not education or a proper foundation for life. We are overlooking the education and example of parents at home. That seems to be going and to me that is the tragedy of the nation at present.

In my day we went home and did our exercises. We asked fathers or mothers the answers to our problems and the family got together around the kitchen table by the light of an oil lamp because there was no electricity then. Each one helped the other. I had two elder brothers and when they moved on a class their books passed down the line. Now, every other year pounds and pounds are spent on books. The book which cost £5 last year goes into the wastepaper basket this year and you pay £5 for another book. We must object to this if we are to bring education back to what it should be.

Leaving primary schools, we go on to the secondary schools. Let me be recorded as saying that my primary education by the Christian Brothers in Limerick cost one penny a week. I paid one penny every Sunday morning when we had class from 10 to 11 a.m. I and my two brothers were educated for 3d a week because of the sacrifices then made by the Irish Christian Brothers. They refused to be taken over; they kept their independence and taught us to be good Irishmen. Whatever they say about the gun or bomb at the present time most of them gave us a true background of Irish history and the sufferings of previous generations in preserving and practising their religion. Even when they were out under hedges and bushes teaching they did it by sacrificing themselves. Let nobody detract from or deny the work that the Christian Brothers and the nuns of Ireland have done in education.

The takeover brigade is now moving in to take over the schools, colleges and grounds that were hard-earned. Every penny earned by these primary and secondary teachers, male and female, in the Orders went into the common purse for the development of the school or convent to which they were attached. They lived frugally all those years. I shall not stand by idly and see their property being practically confiscated. One convent is told: Have the inter-certificate examination and then you are finished. Some other convent elsewhere will take over from you and they will do the leaving certificate." This is what we object to and this is where the crunch will come because these people have a right to their property which was not obtained by means of grants for secondary schools. They earned money for the work they gave the State and they educated our children. They educated me and many like me. I am sure the Minister had this experience. I do not know his age but we had to go through it in my time. It is sad that people should come into this House and deny these people their rightful place in the building of the Republic which we now enjoy. I should be lacking in my duty if I did not say this.

We talk of free education which is a wonderful thing if it can be given but I do not know of anything free: somebody must pay. It has been said here in the past ten years or so that we must have free education. What is the entrance fee for matriculation this year? I have a daughter doing this examination this year and I had to give her £7 for the entrance fee last week. I did the matriculation and it cost nothing and I passed it, luckily, or by the grace of God. Anybody with children going to school, particularly to secondary or post-primary schools— if we wish to be high-toned; they will always be secondary schools to me— knows that the cost of books has gone beyond the capacity of any working parent to provide. I know of no reason why the old system of passing the books down the line, year after year, should not be carried on. But that is over.

I want to stress the necessity for the small school as near the home as possible. While students get certain educational development by means of the blackboard and chalk they get better education from their parents' example and in seeing how they live and make ends meet. That is as important as Euclid or Shakespeare. I am against carting children ten, 12 or 15 miles away each morning, having them out all day, wet, as often as not, carting them back at night to do their exercises, then going to bed and repeating the same routine indefinitely. That is not education. We cannot build a nation on those lines.

I happen to be a member of a vocational education committee which was once dissolved prior to my time. Prior to that, 20 years ago or more, I was a member of a vocational education committee. I can see a great future ahead of us in this field of education.

In Limerick we have been hindered in our advance programmes for our boys and girls because of lack of money. Schemes have to be set aside because of this lack. At all levels of education, from primary up, there should be much more emphasis placed on career guidance so that young people will be channelled into whatever sphere to which their talents and particular leanings are best suited. Particular emphasis should be placed on the skills, whether they are the "wet" skills or the "dry" skills. By "wet" skills I mean skills that are used out of doors—for example, masonry and bricklaying—while by "dry" skills I mean the indoor ones such as panel beating and so on. Those with an academic bent will be all right if they obtain the necessary number of honours in their leaving certificate to qualify them for admission to the university, but what of those who may get their leaving certificate but who may get honours in one subject only? Such a person will probably have to take any old job. For instance, he or she may have to work in a shop, which occupation rarely offers any prospects for advancement. Apart from that fact that person will be of little benefit to the nation in the sense of productivity.

There should be more stress laid on vocational and technical education than on secondary education. It is from the vocational schools that we get people who are skilled and who will be productive in the manufacture of goods both for home consumption and for the export market. Regarding those who graduate from the universities I would say, from my experience, that at least 50 per cent of them have to emigrate. Why should we spend taxpayers' money in qualifying people for the various professions when we know that they will have to leave the country and, consequently, will be of benefit to some other nation? That is a false economic approach. There is no dividend to be got from it.

We, on the Vocational Committee in Limerick, got an ultimatum some months ago telling us that we were not to incur any more expense. The position at present is that we cannot buy as much as a packet of envelopes. There is no money for the purchase of up-to-date machines for any of our classes such as the radio school, which is sponsored by the Marconi Electric Company. However, all we can do is continue to do our best in spite of the decrepit old machines that the boys must use and which should have been scrapped years ago.

It is not what one does that counts but how one does it. Speaking for myself, I received a good secondary education and obtained honours in my leaving certificate, but much more important to me was what I learned from the everyday life in my own home. That is what has helped me in my own approach to life. Most of what I learned at school has been forgotten. I can remember standing up in class and having to repeat many times what Shakespeare wrote about Hamlet or some other old God-damn fool who lived in the mythical past. I am a man of reality at all times. I suppose it is that quality that gets me into so much trouble, but that is how I am made.

I want to impress on the Minister and his Department that the whole approach to education will have to be examined. We must have regard to what is to be the position of the finished article. We must ask ourselves in what spheres are our boys and girls to take their places in this nation. The channelling of talents into the various spheres is a task for the schools, primary, secondary and vocational. Of course, teaching is a vocation and not everyone has the patience to sit in a classroom with a large number of children. When I was at school there were about a hundred others in a room that was divided into two sections. If only half of them were anything like me, I do not know how the Christian Brothers tolerated us, but I got many a good wallop on the palms of the hands. I am nothing the worse for that because such punishment trained me to have discipline in my life.

Although I cannot support this argument, I would say that the crime being committed today in our towns and cities and throughout the country generally is a result of discontinuation of disciplinary measures in schools. I am not advocating that children should be flogged, but they must be disciplined. There have been instances of teachers having been brought to court because they slapped some of their pupils. The result of the withdrawal of such disciplinary measures is that our jails and reformatory schools are now not adequate to accommodate the number of people that are being committed to them for breaches of the law. Last week in Limerick we had a tragic case of four young boys being committed to a reformatory school where it was found that they could not be accommodated because the school was full to capacity. Each of us must be subject to a certain amount of discipline regardless of whether we belong to a political party or anything else. From an early age children must be taught that they cannot do as they wish.

I want to turn now to a very important matter and that is the treatment of the unfortunate handicapped children. I happen to be a member of a finance committee for the handicapped children of Limerick city and we find it necessary to go around the city collecting for this cause. We must raise money in any way possible so as to keep a school going. About five years ago we organised a crazy football game and from the proceeds of that we bought a minibus so that the handicapped children of the city could be collected and taken to the school which was provided for us by the Bishop of Limerick, Dr. Murphy, who, in his charity, sent two nuns from the Sisters of Charity to be trained in this particular type of education. We must provide speech therapy classes and so on to help these children to take their place in society. This effort requires a great deal of money as well as much patience, and what we get from the Department would not run our school for three months of the year.

These unfortunate people were the cupboard children of long ago. They were put into a tea-chest in the corner of the kitchen and left there to jump and scream and do all the other things connected with their affliction. When people came to the house the tea-chest was taken out of the kitchen and put into a room at the back. Thank goodness this affliction has now come out into the open, but not enough. We in the Western Health Board are making a survey of the needs for the development and education of all the handicapped children within our area.

Some parents are still reluctant to declare that one of these children is in the house but they are gradually coming around to realise that these are human beings the same as everyone else and that their condition can be improved. If the Minister visits any of these schools he will see what it means to be handicapped. These children are happy in their own way, but they can be developed perhaps, not to a normal degree but to the extent that they can perform routine, repetitive work. Sheltered workshops can be built, as we are doing in Limerick. The Brothers of Charity are building a school there beside an industrial estate. The children who are trained at the workshop attain a certain amount of independence.

Another matter that I raised with the Minister last week was the question of the group certificate. A boy cannot get into AnCO until he is 18 years of age. Some boys are more advanced than others. I know of a boy of 16 years of age who has secured a group certificate but AnCO will not take him until he is 18. He has gone away to do some menial job behind a shop counter in Limerick, although he wants to devote his talents to skilled electrical work for which he has a flair. I discussed this problem with one of the most skilled men in the business in the city of Limerick. He was a German who came over here at the time of the Shannon scheme in 1927. He told me he started to serve his time in Germany at 14 years of age and he was finished at 19, by which time he had a man's wage. They start here at 18 and do not finish until they are 23. He said he saw no reason why a boy of 16 who had the necessary qualifications, namely, the group certificate or the intermediate certificate, should not be allowed into the trade.

I would ask the Minister to take another look at AnCO from whose work I see very little. Boys who have gone through the system of career guidance and who are ready for training should be allowed pursue whatever course suits them. The boy at 16 years of age is more amenable than at 18. I hope the Minister will review the position here.

I want to thank the Minister and his predecessor for what they have done for Limerick in relation to the school of higher education, and to pay a particular tribute to its director, Dr. Ned Walsh. He is an Irishman married to an Irish girl, who came back to Ireland for less than half of what he was earning because he wanted to live here. It looked at first as if he was being frustrated. Things were not moving as fast as he wanted them to move. However, as a result of agitation by the parents and the public representatives in Limerick, the school will be ready to open in September or sooner. He has got around him a team of teachers who like himself, came back to this country to work for less than half what they could earn elsewhere. Credit is due to the men who have started the school of higher education in Limerick. It is hoped that the school of physical education will be ready by September and that there will be 1,000 boys in that institution.

All this has been achieved because of a dedicated man, Dr. Ned Walsh, and because we the citizens worked hard for it. We even hired a special train from Limerick and paraded down to Talbot Street during Deputy Colley's term as Minister for Education to protest and to fight for what we got. However, I want to see that no obstacles will be placed in the way of the development of this institution in Limerick. It was very hard earned. I suppose people have no meas on anything they get for nothing; it is only what you get by hard work that you appreciate. In Limerick we appreciate very much our school of higher education.

Much has been said about and much ridicule has been made of the greatest educationalist in our generation, a man devoted to education. I had the privilege of being in a class under him. His ability was unlimited, above all his charity was abounding. He devoted his time, his ability and his charity to education and to the development of education. He has been maligned and slandered, not alone in this House but outside it. I refer to the former Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Charles McQuaid. He sat silently and listened to all types of remarks that he was this, that and the other thing. He turned the other cheek and never replied. This showed the bigness of the man and what he has done not alone for the archdiocese of Dublin but for Ireland generally. He has set an example for everyone to follow.

I am a realist and I talk commonsense. I speak from what I know. I am educated every day in the week. I am prepared to learn. I meet people and I learn from them. Let us get out of our heads this vast building of students, regardless of what denomination they are. You cannot get away from the small unit. You will never have a nation if you do. You will have numbers but you will not have boys who will be good leaders, who will make decisions. We will finish up like Sweden with a high suicide rate because the boys and girls will not be taught to face difficulties and to surmount them. If we have not got a nation such as that we might as well write "paid" to this nation of ours.

The Minister cannot complain that he has not had the views of Deputies. Speeches have extended over a wide range of opinions in this debate. I sat in this House most of last Thursday waiting to speak and only two Deputies spoke. I read in the paper last week where Deputy Cruise-O'Brien had referred to indoctrination in schools. I heard Deputy Desmond take the same line of reasoning last Thursday morning but when the Parliamentary Secretary got up to speak he swept it aside as if it did not exist. I want to say it has existed for a considerable period. In my opinion we are not too far away from anarchy and it is entirely wrong that teachers should impress extremist views on young boys and girls.

That is happening in many parts of the country. The Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary should take cognisance of this fact and make every effort to stop it as soon as they can. This may be happening more in the city of Dublin than in other places; it is certainly happening in some parts of rural Ireland. Boys and girls should be allowed to form their own political opinions and their own outlook on life. Matters like that, particularly in the dangerous situation which exists at present should not be allowed to continue. It is disloyal of teachers to try to implant that type of thing in the heads of young children.

There is an innuendo in the country that the religious orders have played their part in education and that other people should take over. I am proud to state that the religious orders gave what was virtually free education for the last century. They received their salaries and they ploughed the money back into education. This country owes a debt of gratitude to them. This is something which cannot be said too often. It makes me almost sick when I hear the innuendo that they have had their day, that we are living in a different age and other people must take over.

I would like to remind the House that the first thing the Communists did when they got control of a country was to sweep religious orders out of hospitals and schools. They paid for that later on because they lost an efficient unit, a unit which was good for the youth and for the country as a whole. Further than that, religious orders play an important part in that they give a cultural background to a country. At present the religious orders are probably taking a greater interest in the problem of the EEC than anybody else. They are trying to get the best advice they can; they are having seminars and giving the children in their schools an opportunity of evaluating the situation and knowing exactly what is going on.

I hope in whatever plans the Minister may have for community schools that he will allow the religious orders to play the vital part they played in the past for the benefit of the country as a whole. The question of community schools is a very vexed one. If the Department of Education try to lay down hard and fast rules they will want to think differently in regard to rural Ireland to what they think in regard to Dublin. In the larger centres community schools are probably very desirable. It is possible that in the larger towns in rural Ireland such a scheme is also possible. If community schools mean the wholesale closing down of rural schools, the breaking up of parochial life, dragging people out of surroundings in which they were born and reared then the idea is a bad one. It will do great harm in this country. I would ask the Minister not to be intimidated by any plan conceived behind closed doors in his own Department. He is a rural Deputy and he should know that the rural requirements are quite different to the requirements in larger centres.

I have a statement on community schools by a committee of parents. It says that in community schools there ought to be a place for handicapped children. I can conceive of nothing worse in education. Here, as indeed elsewhere, very little was done for the handicapped child until comparatively recently. It is only recently that the national conscience has been aroused, and I should like now to pay my small tribute to the Department for the help and assistance they have given us in my county; we now have two schools and two institutions catering for handicapped children. We still have not, however, broken the back of the problem.

As I said, the parents have suggested that the community schools should also cater for handicapped children. I believe that would be a mistake. The handicapped child is at a disadvantage almost from the day he is born. I have seen children removed from schools in which their lives were a continual struggle because of their low IQ and put into special schools for the handicapped; the improvement in these children was almost unbelievable. The camaraderie that exists between them is incredible. The assistance they give each other is quite amazing. The Minister would be very foolish to take the advice of those parents who argue that these children should be housed in a community school. Handicap is a special problem and must be dealt with as a special problem. When these children work together they are encouraged. They become hopeful. I know that from my own personal experience.

I agree that there should be equal opportunities for all in education. It has to be remembered, however, that we are turning out more educated people than we ever did before. I am sure every Deputy has had the same experience as I have had of parents coming to me and telling me that a boy or girl has got his or her leaving certificate but cannot get a job anywhere. All the concentration seems to be on arts graduates. There are other very excellent types of education which will be of incomparable value in our technological world today. The tragedy is that a great number of arts graduates can find no employment.

When I was in Calcutta last year I came across an organisation which grew up simply because there were thousands of graduates with no employment opportunities of any kind and they had to take all sorts of manual occupations; nothing concomitant with their standard of education was available. We may reach the same situation if we keep on turning out arts graduates. The only outlet for them will be emigration and that will represent a serious loss to the nation.

Educational policy should put a greater emphasis on vocational education. Vocational schools should be developed to maximum capacity. In the not too distant future, if we enter the EEC, there will be a much bigger demand for vocationally trained and technologically trained personnel. Career guidance should be available at all stages. If we spend millions educating people then we should ensure that we make full use of their qualifications at home instead of exporting them.

School transport was introduced by the late Donogh O'Malley when he was Minister for Education. Before the introduction of school transport the children had to walk to school. The provision of this transport has made a marked difference in the health of the children because they no longer suffer from inclement weather conditions. Indeed, the incidence of tuberculosis in the past can be attributed to the wettings these children got on their way to and from school. One is constantly being approached by people looking for transport for their children and invariably they are either over the three miles or over the age. I want the Minister to look at this from the point of view of the child. The child goes to school at four or five years of age and travels by bus to and from school every day. At the age of ten he is chucked off the bus. He has no road sense because he has never been on the road.

I do not understand why these children should be put off the bus at the age of ten. These buses are not overcrowded. The buses that travel around my constituency are only halffull. There is another discrepancy about this school travel. Very often there is a Gilbertian situation where a boy and a girl from the same home go to the same big town to school. It could be a town like Enniscorthy where the girls' school is three miles from the home and the other school 50 or 100 yards under that distance. I do not know who measures the distances. It may be the Department or it may be CIE but whoever does the measuring is most conscientious. It would be sensible if the children were transported to a central point in the town itself. There are several schools in Enniscorthy. One school is well over three miles from some of the houses while another school is 2¾ miles from them, with the result that half the children must walk to school on the main road between Dublin and Wexford. There is a cattle mart on the road which makes the children's position even more dangerous. I do not know how some of the children have not been killed. It would be helpful if the Minister would use his imagination and arrange some relaxation of the rules. I am long enough in Dáil Éireann to know that the only person who can do anything is the Minister. We all get letters saying "I am directed by the Minister", or words to that effect, and we know well that the Minister has never seen such letters. Tonight I am asking the Minister for some leverage in this matter. The Minister may be able to centralise the point from which the distance is to be measured.

There is also the question of putting children off the bus at the age of ten. This does not make sense. Children at that age have no road-sense but they are of great help to the younger children in the family who are using the bus. In south Wexford recently a number of small schools were amalgamated. People were not aware of this amalgamation until it actually happened. It went through unchallenged. I never knew about it. Whoever arranged the school transport knows nothing about conditions in rural Ireland. All the children were allowed to avail of school transport irrespective of their age or the distance to the school because, it was inferred, they were good people and they did not resist the bureaucratic drive to close all these small schools. Some of the schools which were closed were comparatively new ones, built during the last few years. Some of the schools had been reconstructed at considerable cost to the State.

These are the points which I wish to put to the Minister. I probably have had more rows with the Department in connection with handicapped children than any Deputy in Dáil Éireann. When the Department helped us they helped properly and we, in Wexford, are grateful for the assistance we got. We can probably claim to be one of the few counties dealing properly with handicapped children. I hope that other counties will get the same co-operation as we have got from the Minister and the Department.

I would like to start my speech where Deputy Coughlan left off. I would like to endorse fully the compliments he paid to the former Archbishop of Dublin, Most Reverend Dr. McQuaid, for the wonderful way in which he contributed to the archdiocese of Dublin and other areas of the country in the field of education. For many years the people of Dublin city have regarded Dr. McQuaid as being one of their best leaders. In the field of education he did wonderful work for the children of the city of Dublin. This work was also projected into other fields, like health. As a doctor I have been very much aware of the way in which Dr. McQuaid gave so much assistance in the setting up of hospitals and also the help he gave by sitting on the boards of different hospitals and assisting in the management of them. The work which Dr. McQuaid did and the progress which he achieved in the archdiocese of Dublin over the past 20 years are a tribute to this great man. May I take this opportunity of wishing him the best of health and activity in his years of retirement?

This is also an opportunity for me to welcome the new Archbishop and to wish him the very best of success in the great task which is ahead of him. His pastoral work will, on many occasions, bring him into the field of education. One aspect of education which has been, perhaps, most neglected by successive Ministers and Governments is that in regard to handicapped children. The Minister will accept my criticism when I say that very little has been done to help the handicapped child to realise his full potential in education. Much could be done. One does not want to blame this inactivity or lethargy on lack of interest in the problem itself. One realises that the handicapped group of children in our society never had, and never will have, much voice in education. Some of the greatest faults of our educational system are shown by the defects which exist at present in the inadequate educational facilities for mentally and socially handicapped children. The percentage of mentally handicapped children in our society is increasing. As medical science advances in its efficiency more babies are born prematurely at the viable stage of 28 weeks in the gestation period. These babies are kept alive but the incidence of brain damage among them is far higher than it is among children who are born at full-term. The number of handicapped children born into our society now is far greater than ever before. Because of this, a realistic programme should be adopted by the Department of Education to provide the facilities necessary to each and every one of these children in order to give them a chance to realise their full potential and to obtain proper and adequate educational facilities suited to each particular handicap. Hand in hand with mental subnormality go the other diseases which from time to time come with very little warning to the notice of the medical profession. We had the drastic instance of this happening with the thalidomide babies. The Department should be in a position to see that in the years to come children with such handicaps will need special facilities at least equal to those of normal children. A handicapped child needs perhaps better facilities than the normal child.

The next greatest disease to come into our sector of the handicapped classes would be that of spina bifida. Over the past six years, with the assistance of surgery to cure this condition and to keep the child alive, and with the complications of hydrocephaly, we have a large number of children now suffering from both spina bifida and hydrocephaly and one of the features of this disease is that it is essentially physical. There is no mental subnormality attached to it and in fact in many cases the opposite has been observed, the child in fact, being of a very high level of intelligence. Many of them have well above the normal IQ, but the provision for getting these children to and from special schools and the relaxation of mind necessary for the harmony in the home in parents knowing that adequate education will be provided for their children who suffer from this affliction are not there and it is silly for us to say that we have any realistic programme of educating handicapped children.

There are many sectors of education in which a handicapped child could do extremely well. I do not want to go into the different types of diseases which result in keeping a child away from the normal school centre. There are many, but it is not for me to outline them to the Minister and it might not be appropriate on the Estimate to do so, but there is the field of languages which could be taught in the home with the many modern teaching methods available in the form of teaching aids and special tape recording systems. These could be made available free to many children who were tested and seen to be responsive to this type of education and who would not be in a position to travel to normal schools or even to a centre of special education.

Again the field of mathematics is a field in which physical handicap does not require a child to be in the centre of education. I have in mind two young constitutents of mine who, because of the peculiar and very rare disease from which they suffer, are unable to stay regularly at school; and if, as their parents have on a few occasions asked me, these language courses were made available they could at least continue some form of systematic and methodical education at home when they were laid up because the peculiar disease they have does not affect their mental capacity in any way. It merely affects their school attendance and so unfortunately their academic progress is inhibited by lack of ability to attend school. It is most unfortunate to see a child with a perfect IQ falling behind his class and behind his age group when this could be avoided. There are not a vast number of these cases but there are certainly many cases that could be helped of children who could make normal progress or who could contribute very constructively to society and play a very active part and feel that they were playing a very active part in our society later on.

This also gives rise to the consideration of the provision of such facilities as home tutor facilities on a similar basis as that on which home nurses are made available to the ill. If home tutoring facilities were made available in cases where a child was unable to travel at all or where it was injurious to him to do so, or where he suffers from cystic fibrosis, and gets recurring infections every time he goes out, but who has normal mental capacity, that child could develop normally in an academic fashion and I would like to see arrangements made whereby these facilities would exist, and not just for the rich. I am sure that many Deputies have had private tuition in the home or tuition of some kind in such matters as music, and it is not all that expensive to provide. It can be most productive and it is of course probably the most productive form of education we can get. The handicapped child who cannot travel to either the special school or to the normal centre of learning should be considered for the provision of a home tutor type of education to which the child would be responsive and adaptable.

With regard to handicapped children generally, one of the best types of education I have seen in practice work with these children is the Montessori type of teaching where children can be taken into play groups as soon as they are toilet trained. Certain children can come into a group at the age of a little over two years and can communicate and learn the different ways of suggestive learning as available through the Montessori system. I am personally disappointed that the Montessori system of teaching is not recognised by the Department. I think it is an invaluable system of learning for infants and even for those of higher grades, but certainly for infants in a small group, it is excellent and unsurpassed by anything I have seen in education in this city.

There is another aspect of educating the normal child who may possibly have some form of impediment. One of the commonest forms of impediment which one comes across in connection with the normal IQ child is a speech problem. There are very few people in Leinster House who suffer from it, so it is probably difficult to convey a true picture to politicians because politicians are known for their verbosity and their ability to speak, but the child who has found difficulty in expressing himself and cannot give a full account of himself at oral examinations should have a little more provision made for him in oral examinations than is there at present. There are many children in school who live in fear and dread of the oral Irish examination. They must pass Irish if they wish to go to university. If a student has a serious speech defect which has been certified by a doctor and the school manager, account is taken of this by the Department. However, a boy of 17 or 18 years who is doing his examination realises that the piece of paper he has is not worth much if he does not pass the oral Irish. I should like to see some provision whereby he would not have to sit the oral Irish examination; if this were done he could concentrate with an easy mind on the other subjects and thereby give a good account of himself. Now such a student must concentrate to a considerable extent on the written part of the Irish examination in order to compensate for his difficulty with the oral section.

Recently the Department of Health set up a school of speech therapists but even with the full number of graduates in the current year they will not be able to tackle the problem to a great extent. Even if the problem is tackled quite substantially there will remain a fear in a certain group that the oral Irish testing will not be to their advantage. I have had experience of a few cases of students who were doing their leaving certificate examination and in some instances their fear of oral Irish affected their studies. Sometimes it can be a contributory factor in their terminating their studies at an early age.

There are those with a physical handicap who cannot commit their knowledge to paper and it would be appropriate on this Estimate to discuss the possibility of abolishing the old type of essay examination and introducing a system of multi-question examination. Some higher centres of learning here are considering this practice which is used widely in the United States. My experience of this new type of examination is that it eliminates much of the stress and strain that is experienced in the older examination system. We need not be revolutionary or radical in changing the method of testing but I should like to see some system introduced such as the one I have mentioned.

There were many fellow-students of my own at school and university who did not acquit themselves as well as they could have because they were not essay writers. The multi-choice question examination system would eliminate this factor and it would give an accurate picture of the knowledge acquired by the student. Questions would be phased in such a way that an overall picture could be obtained of the knowledge of the pupil. In addition, where the papers are corrected by computer one does away with the risk inherent in other examinations. The human element is taken out of the marking of papers. Most students hope their papers will not be examined in the late hours of the night by an examiner who is suffering from migraine, for example. The human factor is eliminated in this multi-choice question examination.

The Department of Education, through the school managers and teachers, are the first people who can elicit any sign of disability in a child. This can be overlooked at the regular school medical examinations because it can take some time to assess a child's ability to speak properly. As with mental and physical development, speech development has many phases. The classification of children into different categories can be detrimental to the child who has a minor speech defect; such a defect can cause him to be classified at an early stage as being a slow child or a child who has a subnormal intelligence. The wrong type of handling in such a case can have catastrophic effects on the child's mental attitude to learning.

We are aware of the shy child who does not speak in class because of a slight defect and if he is put at the back of the class he can vegetate there. In the same way the bright-eyed, vocal child can be brought to the front of the class and can be coaxed. It is only fair to say that many children who suffer from speech defects, particularly those that are of an emotional origin, have a high degree of intelligence. Many of them have a well-above normal intelligence.

A certain amount of frustration is felt in the sections of the medical world which deal with problems like this. There are many children who could be helped at an early age and whose education need not suffer in any way if the teachers were more aware of these problems. A minor hearing defect can be picked up at a regular school examination but, in the case of a speech defect, unless it is caused by some physical abnormality like a tied tongue or a cleft palate, it will not be picked up immediately. The teacher has a vitally important role to play in this matter. One cannot over-emphasise it when speaking on the subject of handicapped children or on the subject of a child with perfectly normal intelligence who has a speech problem. The referral of a child of this kind to a psychologist, or to one of the special speech therapy centres in Dublin, is of the utmost importance. Speech therapists and people who have any knowledge of this subject say that the earlier the defect is detected the greater the chance of effecting a quick cure and bringing the child back to a normal educational pattern.

It is not unusual to see children deliberately pretending they do not know the answer to questions they are asked in class because they cannot pronounce certain words. I believe the Department have not become fully aware of this. I am not saying that I am the only one who is aware of it. Many Deputies have referred to it. The number of special classes provided in the suburban areas that I know of are very few. Classes are provided in schools around the suburbs of my constituency and the progress made by the children and the benefits they derive by being transferred to a class of this kind are quite noticeable. There does not appear to be any stigma attaching to the fact that they are in a class with a special system of teaching or a softhanded method of education.

In the field of education we must be aware of the ability of the child and his ability to communicate his knowledge vocally or on paper. We should have a look at our system of examinations, the way they are presented to the child, the way the child is assessed, and the way we assess and classify a child when he is leaving school. His total Irish education is assessed in a two-hour or three-hour examination. His total mathematics knowledge is assessed in a two-hour or three-hour examination. I have always felt that this was at fault.

Many friends who were at school with me did not do well in their examinations but did extremely well in life afterwards. They proved themselves to be very capable and to have a very wide knowledge of their subject but, on the day appointed, they did not acquit themselves well. The multi-choice system of examination could lessen the number of students who do not acquit themselves adequately from the point of view of the knowledge they have accumulated over the years. Any Department or any group of officials who issue a certificate to a boy, and particularly a certificate which states that he has failed, have a great responsibility.

A constituent of mine is having great difficulty at the moment. He is an orphan. He obtained two honours in his leaving certificate and passed in Irish. He did an honours mathematics course which he failed. Because he failed in maths, even though it was honours maths, anywhere he shows that sheet of paper with "failed" after "mathematics" he will be looked upon as a dumb-bell who cannot add. This is the fault of the system of examination. Under the multi-choice system a child might be asked 1,000 questions and he marks off one answer in a series of possible answers, one of which is correct, and he could come out having answered 40 or 50 or 75 per cent of the questions correctly. We must take into account the human ability to put thoughts on paper and the ability to write quickly and clearly. Those factors would be eliminated from the assessment at the end of the child's time in secondary school, and in the university unless he is doing a specific course which necessitates a certain talent for being able to write long essays very quickly.

The Minister mentioned some very important matters in his speech such as community schools, primary, secondary and university education, higher institutes of education and school transport but he did not refer at all to the part played by his Department in the physical education of children. Anyone who has gone through school is aware of the importance of being strong and physically fit to endure the long hours of study which are necessary to obtain a degree and to pass an examination. I could hardly believe this was not referred to by the Minister.

Many prominent speakers did not give proper attention to the National Council for Sport which was set up in the life of this Dáil. It is no harm to mention that the National Council for Sport was set up following a suggestion by this party. Soon after we called on the Taoiseach to concentrate more on sport, to allocate more money for the administration of sport and for the provision of sporting facilities, the National Council for Sport was set up. This is a stepping-stone towards the establishment of a Ministry for Sport. The voluntary members of the National Council for Sport deserve the greatest tribute this House can pay them for the wonderful work they have done. They are an example to other Departments that if we get a group of people who have a common interest, the talent available in nonelected personnel is tremendous. These people on the National Council for Sport show what a group of unpaid, voluntary workers can achieve in a very short time in stimulating interest in physical education and sport. The Minister should refer to them when he is replying and should pay tribute to the extremely good service that they have given to the country.

One anomaly that I find in regard to education is the fact that most of the centres of higher education in Dublin are on the south side of the city. I do not agree that all the intellectuals in Dublin are on the south side. There should be a balance in the provision of educational facilities in this city. There are five centres of higher education south of the Liffey and only one north of the Liffey. Yet, there is a higher percentage of the population resident north of the Liffey and that population is rapidly expanding. There is a higher percentage of children north of the Liffey and a higher percentage of adults. The only centre of higher education on the north side is Bolton Street College. On the south side there are the Rathmines School of Commerce, Kevin Street, University College, Dublin, Trinity College, Dublin and the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland. If one wants to mention the Apothecaries Hall as a centre of higher education, which technically it is although it does not function all that much, then, statistically, there are six centres of higher education on the south side. I am not including the Albert College because it is destined to be transferred.

The cost of travelling from my constituency across the city to Belfield, which may involve taking two or three buses, imposes an unfair burden on students living on the north side of the city. Those travelling from the north side—they are very few—to Trinity College also experience difficulty in travelling. This affects their educational progress because it involves having to be in buses for a considerable period and standing at bus queues, perhaps in the rain. As one who travelled a good deal by bus to university I know that a great deal of time can be wasted in travelling by this means.

There is a very strong case for building the next centre of higher education that is to be built on the north side. In regard to the hospital services available there is a difference between the north side and the south side of the city. In discussing local government it is possible to indicate the number of office blocks built on the south side as compared with the north side. Public representatives on the north side of the city hear complaints from constituents who have to cross the Liffey in order to get to a centre of higher learning. Those on the north side who work in the Civil Service have to go south of the Liffey in most cases. This involves extra expenditure in bus fares and lunches out. This disadvantage is something we inherited. Most of the colleges I have mentioned were in existence when the country gained its independence. There is a strong case for building the new centre of higher education on the north side.

In August last a garbled statement appeared in the newspapers to the effect that the centre of higher education scheduled to be built on the lands of the Albert College in Glasnevin would not go ahead. On behalf of my constituents I would ask the Minister to indicate, when replying to the debate, why the centre of education in Glasnevin is being shelved, why progress has not been made in the building of this centre. I do not have to go into any great detail in order to convince the Minister of the necessity for a centre of higher education in this area. If the Minister cares to travel that part of the city with me, or with any of his colleagues who represent the area, he will see the massive expansion that has taken place both in local authority and private dwellings and will realise the urgent need that exists for a centre of higher education.

It was with regret that I heard that the Ling Physical Education College is being closed down and that the Department of Education are taking over the functions carried out by this college. It is appropriate on this Estimate to pay tribute to the Ling College which produced so many extremely well qualified physical instructors.

This is something which I notice is omitted from the Parliamentary Secretary's contribution. He mentioned the National Council for Sport, the National Youth Council and the amount of work done and he mentioned other aspects of physical education but it was not until Deputy Clinton called for a statement on physical education that we had a statement from a member of the Government, a junior Minister who is responsible for physical education and for sport. It was not until Deputy Clinton said that there was a responsibility on the Department to make a statement regarding the progress of the National Council for Sport, the ways in which the money had been allocated and the progress made, that the Minister's Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Kennedy, adverted to this matter.

One of the omissions in his speech, which is possibly an oversight on his part, is the lack of reference to any system of providing physical recreational facilities for young females. I have had many representations made to me by mothers in my constituency regarding recreational facilities for their daughters. Traditionally, physical activity was always a male pursuit and, perhaps, the prerogative of that sex but in recent years females are keen to become involved in athletics and in football. They have formed soccer teams in the city and are keen to play basketball and volley ball and take part in athletics. If one observes, as I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister have observed, the massive gatherings at the Kennedy stadium each year when the community games take place and sees the hundreds of boys and girls participating in these games, one realises the importance of providing adequate recreational facilities for both boys and girls. It is tremendously important that we observe at all stages in education the old motto Mens sana in corpore sano, a healthy mind in a healthy body.

Perhaps it is significant that when, in UCD, which traditionally had a Wednesday half-day for university sports and the holding of inter-university competitions, this was abolished, the incidence of psychiatric complaints among students increased fantastically. One is tempted to say that the general policy in education now is to produce academics rather than men, to produce people with rubber-stamp degrees to show they have passed through a certain recognised course provided by one of our higher institutions of education. Much criticism can be levelled at that system because the type of person coming out with degrees now is not always the type one would like to see emerging, not the kind of graduate the country would hope for. Higher centres of learning, vocational and university, should be producing leaders of the community and leaders in industry, both men and women. I venture to say the change of emphasis in the past decade to academic achievement from overall ability to make use of academic knowledge acquired in the universities was a mistake. I would rather see a graduate coming out with perhaps 10 per cent less academic knowledge and 90 per cent more leadership. We have resorted to producing an assembly-type graduate and to over-emphasising the importance of storing information in the memory of the student. To some extent, we are taking away the personality and natural talents of the student by this.

The pendulum must swing back. Other countries have made similar mistakes and have seen what happened. Their countries are now without any form of leadership apart from trained administrators, people who have done a special course in artificial leadership. The fact that sport appears to be discouraged rather than encouraged in a university is a tragic mistake. I can always remember a colleague of mine being told by a professor in front of an examiner from England: "This man might make a great rugby player but it will be a long time before he passes this exam." He passed the examination and made a great rugby player. He became an international and I am glad to say that he is now a natural leader in his community.

Stifling natural talents at any stage in a student's life is detrimental to society at large. Any higher centre of education, and particularly the universities, when planning courses and accepting students should take fully into account the academic, economic, social and cultural needs of the society and the community to which the graduates will return. In this regard I should like to mention specifically the field of medical education. The Minister criticised me here once for advocating the training of doctors for export. One of the points I was making at that time was that, while much money was being spent on the education of medical students, there were many people in several areas in the country who had hardly any medical facilities available to them because of a shortage of medical doctors. The reason for this situation is because some of these areas are so isolated that a doctor would find it difficult to set up practice in them or he might consider the difficulties involved in the education of his children in such areas. It was for that reason I suggested some time ago that the local authorities, or the Department of Health, or the Department of Education, or even all three combined, should devise a system under which those areas in which there is the greatest need for graduates should be assessed in relation to that need and that students wishing to pursue a course leading to a degree in medicine should be subsidised completely on the understanding that on qualifying they would agree to serve in their respective areas at an agreed remuneration. In this way they would be giving of their knowledge and training to the people who helped them qualify.

Perhaps I am more familiar with the medical aspect of education than with any other. For any child who wishes to go through university but whose parents may not be able to afford the cost involved it is a fair deal that, if his fees and accommodation are paid, he would return to an area in which there was a shortage of medical personnel. The same could apply where there is difficulty in filling teaching posts. Such a system would overcome the problems that are being experienced in areas along certain parts of the western seaboard, for example.

I would like to see the re-introduction of night classes for students at UCD. Many potential students were very upset when these classes were discontinued.

Another matter that is causing much concern both to parents and students is that of the ever-increasing fees of the universities. Perhaps a system could be introduced whereby the parents of a potential student could budget for about four or five years in advance of the student entering college in the knowledge that, all being well and the student reaching the standard necessary, a certain amount would be required for fees, books and so on. The only unknown factor they would have to contend with would be rises in the cost of living. However, this would not be possible if university fees should continue to increase to the extent to which they have been increasing recently. I would like to see, also, some system whereby expenses of students would be subsidised by the Department of Education, on a graded basis, as costs increased and that such would apply to books which, as we all know, are very expensive. The fact that in this academic year students in UCD went on strike and caused the closure of the university for some considerable time must be the strongest indication yet that the increasing fees are totally unjust, badly timed and the result of general mismanagement by those at the top in the educational institutions and in the Department. Those of us who were approached by students to have the matter raised here did so but were allowed to raise it on only one occasion. At the time those who should have been doing something about the matter seemed to be apathetic towards it. Although the matter was resolved eventually, it would have been more opportune to have taken action in the early stages so that the fears of many intending students could have been allayed.

A child may inherit some money that will enable him to pay his fees for, say, his first year at university but it is hard luck if he finds on obtaining his leaving certificate that the university fees are to be increased by 25 per cent. The Department should make a statement in advance on any proposed increase in fees.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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