Vol. 260 No. 5
asked the Minister for Education if he will arrange for the National Library to acquire the set of rare books from the King's Inns Library which are being offered for sale by the Benchers; and if he will provide funds for their purchase so that this unique collection will not be lost to the country.
7.
andDr. Thornley asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of the proposed sale abroad of part of the Library of the Benchers of King's Inns; and if he will in the national interest and as a matter of urgent public importance make a full statement on the matter.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 7 together.
I am aware of the decision of the Honourable Society of King's Inns to offer portion of their Library for sale by public auction. The volumes to be put on sale come under the general classification of scientific, religious and geographical works. The society has given an undertaking that such books as may have reference to Ireland will not be included in the sale, nor is it the intention to sell any of the legal books contained in the Library.
That being so I am not satisfied that considerations of the national interest arise to an extent which would warrant the provision of the very considerable sums of money which would be involved in retaining through purchase the remaining books.
Has the Parliamentary Secretary received any indication from the Benchers of the specific nature of the books to be sold? Which books of scientific, religious and geographical interest are to be sold, in fact? There are 1,200 volumes involved.
We have a list of all the books to be sold. From a perusal of the list it appears that what the Benchers have said is, in fact, the case. The books are more collectors' items than books of any special interest to Ireland or of any special legal significance.
How does one define historical library items which are not of Irish interest? Since when would a particular piece of religious, scientific or geographical literature not be of Irish interest and thus get the approval of the Parliamentary Secretary for sale? Surely they are all part of our national heritage and, with due respect to the Benchers, should not be allowed out of this country.
First of all, I want to make it clear there is no approval required from the Minister for this sale. The only function the Minister has here is in relation to the suggestion that the National Library should acquire the books. These are all printed documents and as such no permission is required from the Minister or anyone else to export them. Secondly, in view of that and having regard to the priorities which must be applied in the purchase of books for the National Library for which the Minister is responsible, and having regard to what these books might fetch as collectors' items, I think the Deputy would be satisfied that the priority would be for the National Library to acquire books which have a specific Irish interest. If the Deputy looks through the list he will find that nothing of specifically Irish interest or nothing, as the Benchers themselves have said, of specifically legal interest will be offered for sale, and if any are included in the catalogue by mistake they will be withdraw.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary say whether it is a fact that these books were offered to each library in the country and specifically to the Taoiseach as Head of the Government, and that every effort was made to interest possible purchasers inside the country before the books were sent to Sotheby's?
I can only say I am aware that the Taoiseach was notified in July of last year and that they were offered to the National Library. Beyond that I cannot say.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary not agree that there is widespread disquiet among historians in Ireland about the whole manner in which we are preserving or failing to preserve our archives? Would he not further agree that to describe the retention of books as those with reference to Ireland as opposed to those which are collectors' items is to treat an historical subject with a degree of flippancy which is disgraceful?
Philistines.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary prepared to co-operate in a situation in which we continue to flog our national heritage to the Americans and the English? Is the Parliamentary Secretary going so far as to say that the second folios of Shakespeare are not of relevance to Ireland? Has the Parliamentary Secretary seen the letter in The Irish Times of Monday, April 17th, signed by a distinguished cross-section of academics protesting against this sale? In view of all that, does he feel his answer is adequate?
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the well-worn path down to the King's Inns of all these historians and very knowledgeable persons who have spent the last ten years examining these books?
Therefore, one must sell them.
As usual, the Deputies over there are attempting to establish their intellectual superiority. If one makes any attempt to translate what has been conveyed to us by the Benchers of the King's Inns to the Labour Party, immediately we get a lecture from Deputy Thornley on what is or is not of intellectual Irish interest. I understand as well as Deputy Thornley and his fellow academics in the benches over there that an Irishman does not confine his interest to matters of Irish historical interest, and I do not want to have Deputy Thornley or his learned colleagues suggesting otherwise. If the Deputy is suggesting that we should regard as a priority the retention of books such as: Antiquities of Pola in Istria, Nuremberg Chronicle, Carnival of Rome, Views of Venice, Ancient Rome or whatever else——
Why not, if this is the heritage of this country?
What the Deputy is suggesting is that we should have an embargo on the sale of all books.
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether any estimate has been made of the sum this collection is likely to make?
In so far as it can be estimated in view of the fact, as I have indicated, that so many of these books are collectors' items, it is felt they will reach something of the order of £200,000.
Has the Parliamentary Secretary any idea—and I know it is not strictly within his area of responsibility—what sum of money the honourable society are in need of at the moment for their immediate purposes?
I do not know. As the Deputy has indicated, it is not within our responsibility; the only way it comes before the Department of Education is in relation to the Minister acquiring the books. However, they have indicated that the purpose of the sale is to pay off their overdraft arising out of repairs and renewals to the King's Inns and King's Inn's library, to put the King's Inns on a proper financial footing to enable the Benchers to improve their educational facilities, and—I think this may be some compensation to the intellectuals in the Labour Party who regard the rest of us as Philistines—to improve the library and to have the books in it properly catalogued.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary indicate whether or not the National Library indicated to him that this particular collection would be regarded by them as a valuable or useful acquisition to their collection?
In a communication from the National Library it was indicated that the books are not of Irish interest specifically and that the library's main interest is in books and manuscripts of Irish interest, and as a first priority we seek sufficient funds to purchase these. At the same time, they acknowledged that these were books of special interest but not, in the scheme of priorities, ones they would look for in the first instance.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary propose that the National Gallery should now sell its Renoirs, its Hogarths or its Gains-boroughs since they are not of Irish interest?
Has the Parliamentary Secretary a list of the books? Certainly the list I saw in The Irish Times did not make much of an impression on me. Is there a copy of Fynes Moryson's Itinerary included in the list? Has the Parliamentary Secretary a list of the books that he disapproves of being sold or the sale of which he has not approved?
I want to make it clear again to the Deputy that the Minister has no function in approving or disapproving of the sale of these books. The function of the Minister would be in purchasing books or providing for the National Library sufficient funds to purchase whatever books might be available. From an examination of the books that are now in the catalogue, it does appear that none of them would, in fact, come within the type of books that the Minister would normally be concerned that the National Library should acquire from the resources available to it.
When I was last in the National Library there was no copy of Fynes Moryson's Itinerary there. There was one secreted in the basement of Trinity College, but I am not aware of any other. I understood that the Parliamentary Secretary could suggest that in certain circumstances the Department would provide funds to buy——
I can only tell the Deputy that I shall take a note of the particular book with which he is concerned and if it is included and is of special significance we can suggest that it be withdrawn.
I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment in view of the Philistine attitude to this question.
Of course, I have not the advantage of the philosophical background of Deputy Desmond.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware there is a precedent in recent times, that when another item of our national heritage which is known as the Killymoon Hoard was put up for sale in London, his Department in a very enlightened way intervened and purchased this item for the National Museum? Would he be prepared in these times of reasonable budgetary affluence to reconsider this matter and make money available to purchase this collection?
I shall convey the Deputy's comments and suggestion to the Minister.
