asked the Minister for Health the percentage of population of the Eastern Health Board areas who are holders of medical cards as at the 2nd April, 1972.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Medical Card Applicants.
22.
I would suggest that the Deputy seek the information from the Eastern Health Board who are responsible for the general medical services in the area.
If the Minister is to try to run any type of health services surely he must know the percentage in one-third of our population who have medical cards?
If the Deputy asks me on a national basis, or if he has any question in relation to what might be alleged to be disparities, I will be very glad to answer him, but I want the health boards to become centres for providing information where Deputies can discuss these matters.
Would the Minister not agree that it is not possible for Deputies to ask questions about disparities if the disparities are not disclosed to them? Should not any figures involving national comparisions of that kind between regions be given to this House?
In the notes for the Estimate for the Department for the year 1971-72 I gave the percentages of those receiving medical cards and the percentages for every health board area.
That is totally uninformative. The fact is that medical cards were reviewed on 31st March, 1972. I have asked the Minister how many people ceased to hold medical cards on 1st or 2nd April, 1972, on the introduction of the Act for the implementation of the GMS. The Minister knows very well that there has been a dramatic reduction in the number of medical cards.
I do not think I have that information.
The Minister should have it. How can he plan any type of health services if he has not got these figures? How could we contribute to a debate on a Health Estimate if these figures are not given to us?
The Deputy is talking nonsense. I have made it perfectly clear to the House that I was giving only the most general directions to the chief executive officers when they were compiling the regulations under the Health Act, 1970, for the issue of medical cards: that they should observe the terms of the Act, that they should try to reconcile the tests for the medical cards between one county and another, and that they should ensure that the general percentages of the number of medical cards would not be materially different from what it was. Then there is the direction in the Health Act, 1970, to ignore the income other than the income of husband and spouse when calculating whether a person should have a medical card. I made it perfectly clear that I was leaving it to the chief executive officers.
It is quite obvious that the Minister has changed his policy with regard to information coming from the various health authorities. He used to answer that type of question. May I ask the Minister are Members of this House who are not members of the health boards entitled to the type of information which the Minister has denied to Deputy Byrne.
Anyone can get information from the health boards, as well as members.
Are Deputies and Senators entitled to the same sort of information as actual members of the health boards?
They certainly are entitled to get it from the health boards.
And from the Minister.
Is the Minister suggesting that anybody who wishes to make a comparison between the regional patterns for medical cards must now write off to all the different health boards and get the answers back, instead of putting down a simple question in this House to obtain these inter-regional comparisons?
No. The national figures will, of course, be given by me in so far as I have them at any one moment.
If a question is put down asking for the figures for all the regions the Minister will give them?
Yes.
But if the question asks for the figures for one region the Minister will not give them?
No, because I want Deputies who are interested in a particular region to have contact and a close connection with the health board in the region.
I can understand the Minister's point of view but it seems rather odd that we should be in a position in this House that if we want an answer to one question we must ask six.
I agree that it is very difficult to decide.
Did I understand the Minister to say that in assessing a person's means for a medical card the income of other members of the family, other than the spouse, will not be taken into consideration?
That is right.
This does not apply at the moment in the Eastern Health Board area.
I think it applies generally.
It had not applied up to three days ago. Will the Minister bring it to their attention?
I will.
Is the Minister now placing the onus of responsibility on the CEOs of the Health Boards? I can tell him that the CEOs will not take any responsibility without consulting him first. I was a member of the health authority from its foundation and I am now a member of a health board. Therefore, I know what I am speaking of and I advise the Minister accordingly.
In view of the failure of the Minister to answer some of these questions, may I point out that it is an important function of democracy that Deputies obtain such information? Since the foundation of this State Deputies have been able to obtain information in this House by way of Parliamentary questions. This, therefore, is a new procedure and will the Minister not agree that Deputies have enough to do without sitting down to write dozens of letters to health boards? Further, will the Minister realise that we have not available to us paid secretaries or the civil service to help us and that consequently, we are dependent on answers to Parliamentary questions for our information? This is a retrograde step on the part of the Minister.
The Deputy is exaggerating grossly.
The Minister has refused to answer about ten questions.
I would like the Deputy to count the number of questions that I have answered on health policy which, I guarantee, must constitute almost a record.
It is because the Minister has been so good that we are surprised at this change.
Yes, in the past he has been one of the most courteous Ministers in the House.
If we could succeed in encouraging the concept of regionalisation where a larger administration of health would have greater responsibility for the proper decentralisation of services people would begin to think of the health boards as their regional health parliament.
The principle is good but give them more autonomy.
Because of the total lack of co-operation on the part of the Minister, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the question of the health boards.
The Deputy may get an opportunity of discussing this matter but not at this stage.
Write to the health authorities.
There are none.