Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Feb 1974

Vol. 270 No. 4

National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1974 : Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to increase from £5 million to £15 million the limit on advances and borrowing guarantees which the National Building Agency may have obtained at any time for industrial housing purposes.

The National Building Agency was set up in 1960 as a company under the Companies Acts with the primary object of facilitating industrial expansion by the provision of houses and ancillary services where this need could not be met appropriately by local authorities or was not being catered for by private enterprise. It was placed on a statutory basis by the National Building Agency Limited Act, 1963. The scope of the agency's activities was extended two years later to cover any housing or related operations which the Minister for Local Government might assign to it from time to time.

The work of the agency now falls into three broad categories — the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industrial expansion, the provision of houses for State employees whose duties involve them in occasional transfers of residence and housing operations undertaken on behalf of local authorities. This Bill is concerned with the first of these categories only.

The agency's operations in the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industrial expansion are financed by repayable advances made by the Minister for Finance under section 6 of the 1963 Act. Provision is also made in section 7 of the 1963 Act for the Minister for Local Government to guarantee moneys borrowed for this purpose by the agency. Under section 9 of the 1963 Act, as amended by the National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Act, 1969, the aggregate at any time of advances and guaranteed borrowings obtained by the agency and still unrepaid may not exceed £5 million. No guarantee has yet been given under section 7 of the 1963 Act but over £4.5 million has been advanced to the agency under section 6.

The accounts of the agency are laid before each House of the Oireachtas. The agency's industrial housing service is comprehensive and extends to the acquisition of land, the design and planning of the scheme and the financing and construction of the houses. Within broad policy outlines determined by the Minister for Local Government, industrial housing is provided by the agency in consultation with the various Departments concerned, the Industrial Development Authority and the local authority. Normally the dwellings are provided at the request of individual industries and are financed by way of mortgage loans granted by the agency either to the firms or to nominated individual employees and by the usual State and local grants. A small proportion of houses are provided for letting.

The agency, to the order of the Industrial Development Authority, also provide industrial housing on a more general basis related to the anticipated growth of industry as a whole in an area rather than for specific industries. Houses built by them, in association with the local authorities for letting to key workers in new or expanding industry qualify for a subsidy of two-thirds of loan charges.

The agency built a total of 1,398 houses for industrial workers up to 31st December, 1973, and at that date, work was in progress on a further 456 houses, with schemes comprising 1,015 industrial houses at the planning stage. Information available to the agency from the Industrial Development Authority indicates that the rate of industrial expansion will require a substantial increase in the numbers of industrial houses required in the next five years.

Experience has shown that an adequate and planned programme of housing for key industrial workers is vital to the success of any programme of industrial expansion. In this connection, my Department, the Industrial Development Authority and the agency have maintained close liaison in the matter of assessing industrial housing needs. More than 30 towns throughout the country have been identified in which industrial housing needs, aggregating over 1,350 houses may arise in the next five years. Major industrial developments are anticipated in a few other centres which could require over 500 houses between them. The estimated cost of providing a programme of this order would be approximately £10 million. As I have said, the agency's present statutory limit of indebtedness has been reached and it is now necessary to increase it by £10 million to enable the agency's industrial housing programme to proceed. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Molloy

At the outset I should like to assure the Minister that Fianna Fáil welcome this Bill and will give it their full support. The Bill is, in one way, a verification of the necessity for a State agency to assist in the industrial drive and, generally, in the housing drive. This agency has proved, especially in recent years, a very valuable one in assisting local authorities in the construction of dwellings.

As the Minister has stated, the purpose of the Bill is to increase from £5 million to £15 million the limit on advances and borrowing guarantees which the agency may have obtained at any time for industrial housing purposes. This we welcome and we will not place any obstacles in the Minister's way.

The National Building Agency's activities have been greatly extended since it was originally established with that single purpose in mind. It has made a major contribution by way of house completions to the national housing programme. This is an opportune time for one to ask the Minister a number of questions relating to the operation of the agency in its various aspects. Housing is always a very contentious and important issue. During the debate in this House some time ago on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government this was gone into in detail.

During the last general election campaign the Minister, and the parties now making up the Coalition Government, chose to select this area of the economy as one in which they would make specific promises to the community should they be elected. Positive targets were put before the people and it is only fair now that the Opposition should ask the Minister whether it is his belief that his targets are achievable and whether he would indicate to the House the level of construction which he expects will be achieved in the coming year also. The period up to the end of December, 1973, covers the first nine months of the Minister's term in office.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that this is not a Bill which deals with the housing programme but is one seeking an increased amount of money for the NBA.

Mr. Molloy

I appreciate your ruling in these matters but when the NBA are being discussed and when we are being asked to vote additional moneys for that body, is it fair that one is not allowed discuss even one small aspect of the activities of that agency?

Mr. Tully

Perhaps I can help the Deputy by telling him positively that we will achieve our target this year and next year, also, le cúnamh Dé.

Mr. Molloy

From the figures the Minister gave me in this House last week it looks very much as if he would need the help of the Lord in achieving even similar figures next year. I would have expected that any Government would have as their programme, a progressive housing policy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair cannot permit a discussion on housing at this stage. We are dealing with the question of money.

Mr. Molloy

If the Chair is to confine discussions on the NBA to the very narrow limit of the actual amount of money that is being asked for, there will not be an opportunity——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is well aware of what this Bill contains. It seeks to increase the allocation of money to the NBA and that is all we are concerned with here.

Mr. Molloy

Yes, and the moneys so granted will assist the NBA in carrying out their functions. I may be wrong but from my own experience I know that the agency staff is not divided into sectors of those dealing exclusively with housing for industry and those dealing exclusively with housing for local authorities. The NBA staff are active on all these fronts at the same time. Therefore, it is unreasonable to expect that when money is being voted for this body one should confine one's comments to one aspect of their activity, namely, industrial housing, when the agency are engaged in work with the local authorities and are very much involved in the construction of local authority houses. It is not possible to differentiate between the functions of the staff of the NBA.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must accept the ruling of the Chair on this matter which concerns the provision of extra money for the NBA.

Mr. Molloy

In that case I would merely refer briefly to the Minister's comment that next year, le cúnamh Dé, he hopes to be able to achieve certain targets. In the first nine months of this year the total number of houses begun or authorised is already down by 3,000 and it seems that the Minister will be obliged in this last quarter to allocate 13,600 grants in order to achieve even the level of last year.

It is astonishing that this is the situation and that no concern in regard to it has been expressed by the Minister other than the vague wish that God will come to his aid next year. If a start has not been made the Government cannot possibly achieve reasonable housing outputs next year. The total number of houses begun or authorised in 1972-73 was approximately 33,000 and in the period up to the end of December last the number comes nowhere near that figure : it is only 16,900. Can the Minister give the House an assurance that about 16,000 houses will be begun or authorised in the final three months of this financial year? Such news would be treated with some satisfaction but the situation in the housing sphere appears to be dangerous. The national housing statistics to which I am referring are contributed to by the houses that are built by the NBA for industrial purposes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be drawing the Chair. The Deputy knows that the Supplementary Estimate for Local Government has yet to come before the House.

Mr. Molloy

In any case, I have sounded the warning bell for the Minister in regard to the serious situation in the housing sphere. The future is gloomy in this regard. We should be hearing from the Minister of special measures to be taken to ensure that next year we will achieve at least a rate of house building similar to that of the present year. It is regrettable that the Chair considers it necessary to confine the debate on this important occasion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure that the Deputy, as an ex-Minister, is fully aware that in respect of a measure such as the one before us, debate is confined.

Mr. Molloy

Being an ex-Minister and from one's own observations, one realises that many of these matters are left to the discretion of the Chair and that at times the Chair seems to be more lenient than at other times but if on this occasion you do not see fit to allow this discussion to expand into a vital area of housing, that which affects local authorities who are assisted by the NBA, much of what I have to say must wait for another occasion which may be deemed by the Chair to be more suitable for such debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Vote is there and the Deputy is aware of that.

Mr. Molloy

I welcome the Bill and assure the Minister of our best wishes in relation to the housing programme. This is a matter of the utmost importance and this party are prepared to do all in their power to assist in the expansion of housing. I assure the Minister of our co-operation in that regard but we would add one criteria and that would be that the Minister would be more forthcoming with us on basic information in relation to housing matters in general.

Mr. Blaney

I, too, welcome the necessity for the advance accommodation that is anticipated to be required by the NBA particularly in relation to industrial housing and ancillary services provisions. However, I express my disappointment with and disapproval of the fact that while this measure is being referred to as an extension for the purpose of industrial housing and ancillary services, the question of ancillary services is something that is disregarded almost entirely. This is something for which I lay the blame not at the door of the Minister for Local Government but at the door of the Government as a whole because in the days before the NBA came into being the underlying need for ancillary services was outlined specifically to the then Government and this has been done subsequently on other occasions. While we may make every effort through the local authorities and through the NBA to anticipate housing needs and to meet these needs and while we are quite helpful in regard to the provision of subsidy in relation to houses built by the agency to fulfil industrial needs, we do not do much about providing ancillary services. Water and sewerage facilities and roads are required but are not being provided by the agency or by the IDA who, under their articles of association have the authority. This authority is spelled out but it has not been operated.

The Minister would be well advised to take up with the Government the utilisation of some of the additional financial accommodation that will be provided by this House for the building agency. This will enable the agency to establish industry throughout the country, particularly in the more remote parts. These areas suffer not only from the lack of housing for any industrial enterprise that may emerge; they are often by-passed because the ancillary services, merely mentioned in the Minister's speech, are not available. They are not likely to be quickly provided by the local authority because of other commitments or by the IDA. Facilities, by way of financial help, are not offered by the IDA even though they may be entitled to do so. Apparently the National Building Agency are not alerted to the fact that this is a job they could do, and I am sure would be glad to do if they were given the green light to go ahead.

One of the prime motives in setting up the National Building Agency was to have a body who could get in and do work on the construction side, particularly housing, for any Department, local authority or industry. It was hoped they would do it on equal terms with any private agency or contractor without the inhibitions of a local authority. It was envisaged that the agency would be given a freedom to do things quickly and to take short cuts when this could be done to the advantage of the State or local authority. This seemed to work well in the earlier years of their activities but from what I can gather from their activities in recent times it appears that they have grown inward. As a result, they are suffering from the ill they were set up to avoid, namely, they do not act with the same freedom of movement as originally. Now they are inclined to be a part of a Department, although this is not a reflection on any Department. The agency have become rather like the public authorities who suffer from certain disabilities. They are restricted to various procedures about advertising, tendering, bargaining for pricing, and so on.

I realise these restrictions are necessary but the agency have allowed themselves to be driven to the position where they have become almost like another public authority with the attendant obligations and restrictions of a public authority, although I am not suggesting they should be relieved of these obligations. On the establishment of the agency, the thinking of those in the Department of Local Government and other Departments was that an agency with more freedom than a Department or a public authority could be a great advantage not only from the financial point of view but in the expeditious carrying out of certain works. This was a new concept and even though there was a lack of experience, there was a problem of getting staff together and other difficulties in the early days in the sixties, those years have shown that the establishment of the agency was worthwhile.

I would ask the Minister to look back on the performance of the agency. I think he will find I am correct in saying the agency have become ingrown. This is reducing their effectiveness and is eliminating the advantages they had when set up. If the Minister does this, perhaps he will find it possible to loosen things a little. Perhaps he will allow the agency greater latitude and freedom than they have exercised in more recent years. In the expenditure of the additional money being sought now, a greater effort could be made by the agency if they were less restricted and not tied too much by the Department or by regulations that may apply to public or local authorities. Once this happens and is brought to its conclusion the usefulness of the agency will have disappeared. If they are similar to a public authority there will be no need for them because they will be only a duplication of that authority. It is the freedom that was envisaged for the agency that has justified their existence; without that freedom there is no advantage in having the agency. They will be just a costly, additional authority doing a job that could equally well be done by a public authority.

I am a great believer in the value of the agency but that value is measured by the freedom given to them. I appeal to the Minister to look at the record of the agency from the beginning, to follow their development, to look at the mistakes made as well as the accomplishments. He will find from that the reasons for all the achievements. In the knowledge that any mistakes made will have been a useful experience that will help to avoid——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

At this stage we seem to be discussing the agency rather than discussing the increase in the amount of money available to them.

Mr. Haughey

If you are giving them £10 million you must be able to discuss the agency's functions.

Mr. Blaney

I am sure the Chair appreciates that, in the utilisation of the additional money we are proposing to provide — and I do not think anybody in the House would suggest in any way that it should not be provided in full measure — the freedom the agency had is not now enjoyed by them to the same degree and, therefore, we will not get as good value for the additional money as we would get if that freedom were restored. If I have digressed to some degree, I will try to avoid doing so in any further comments I have to make which are few and will be restricted, I hope, to the matter before us.

The utilisation of this money cannot be confined solely to the provision of industrial housing. I want the Minister to let us know what is being done, or what it is proposed to do, or what it is anticipated will be done, in the provision of ancillary services which I understand go along with industrial housing to make up the demand that is foreseen to amount to an additional £5 million over the five years immediately ahead. Why should we couple ancillary services with housing if we are doing nothing about the provision of ancillary services? If we propose to do nothing about it, it should be deleted from the statement to this House making the case for the additional £5 million.

I believe it should not be deleted. I believe it is properly where it is at the moment as part of the reason for the additional £5 million requirement. It is only fair to suggest that a considerable proportion of this £5 million should go to the provision of ancillary services such as roads, water, sewerage, et cetera, without which industry cannot be provided in any circumstances, and is not capable of being provided without extreme trouble, cost and inconvenience to the local authority in whose area the industry is proposed to be sited.

The IDA have welshed on this over the years. The agency should take up the slack because they are the type of body who can do this sort of job. Others have fallen down on it and the agency can and should act in this respect. This additional accommodation of £5 million being provided through this House should give them the opportunity to help not only in housing industrial workers and providing for anticipated growth in the need for housing as a result of the establishment of industry, but also with the infrastructure necessary for the establishment of almost any industry. That should be capable of being provided by the agency to encourage the establishment of the industry the growth of which would create a need for housing which we hear so much about. We hear very little about the infrastructure needed to encourage the industry which, in turn, creates a demand for houses.

That is the main point I should like to emphasise to the Minister; that and the restoring of freedom or the giving of greater freedom to the agency to act in the best interests of industry, the local authority, the Department, the Government, and the people generally. They should be given the freedom which private institutions enjoy and which public authorities do not enjoy, very often to the disadvantage of the projects which the public authorities embark upon. Let the agency be what it was envisaged to be, that is, a free agency which can compete on similar terms with any other body, and whether it be a private or corporate body does not really matter.

This is essential. Taking that freedom away from the agency and turning them into a branch of the Department of Local Government, or any other Department, or turning them into just another public body or public authority, is a total negation, in my estimation, of the whole concept that underlay the establishment of the agency. Without that concept I can truthfully say that such an agency would never have been established. They have proved their worth over the years. They can do a great deal more. I am absolutely convinced that their freedom of movement, their free approach, and their unorthodox approach to getting the job done, and bargaining in whatever was necessary to get the best job done at the cheapest price, are essential to their wellbeing and, indeed, to their very existence. Without them the provision of money or the lack of money will not make any great difference.

I say we should give them the money they need and restore and widen the freedoms they had. They have proved their worthiness of these freedoms in the past. By doing that we will not only be enabling them to spread their wings further in very useful fields of operation, particularly in industrial housing and the provision of ancillary services, but also we will be ensuring that the additional money we are proposing to provide here this evening will be well spent and that we will get better value than average from it as a result of the activities of an agency free and unfettered as they were proposed to be from the start.

If the Minister does this he will be doing a very good job. The agency are well worthy of this consideration, not for their own sake but for the sake of the country and the community they serve and have served well. Do not tie them up. This has happened very gradually. Give them the latitude and the freedom they deserve and we will be very happy to come back in quite a short time, possibly, to enlarge even further the amount of money which may be provided to them.

Mr. Dowling

Like other speakers, I welcome this measure. I want to deal with the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industrial expansion. In doing so I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the inflow of industrial workers into Dublin city and county over the years has been very substantial. Many hundreds of thousands of key workers have come into Dublin city and on no occasion have the NBA or the IDA taken into consideration the vast industrial expansion in the various industrial estates throughout the city.

Key workers in Dublin are being discriminated against by the NBA and the IDA in that they have had no consultations with the local authorities about Dublin workers. In the vastly expanded industrial estates in Ballyfermot and Tallaght and in the outer perimeter areas, the local authority are the agency to which people are directed. Many key workers come home to employment and find that they are unable to get accommodation in Dublin city because they have not got the four years' residential qualification. No real effort has been made to establish homes for them in the way they are established in other sectors. In the year under review, 122 houses were provided by the agency for the industrial housing programme. At the moment a further 244 dwellings are under construction.

The Dublin situation requires immediate consideration and I would ask the Minister to use his influence with the IDA to ensure that they and the local authorities get together to see that the social and industrial needs of the workers are catered for in Dublin city. The volume of workers coming to Dublin is much greater than that going to any other part of the country. The inflow of workers is to Dublin from the country. We have an agency and, if they have not got the necessary finances, they should have them and I am quite certain that if they required more the House would vote more to ensure that key industrial workers were housed adjacent to their employment.

We have a situation at present in which workers are housed on the basis of the building programme of the local authority who attach certain conditions to the allocation of dwellings. Sometimes key workers are completely disregarded — employment is not one of the factors taken into consideration. In the case of industrial workers in this city the factors considered are whether they qualify and where the house is available. We have workers located in Ballymun who work in Ballyfermot industrial estate and who have to cross the city day after day. On the other hand, people working in Tallaght are living in Ballymun. Dublin workers are entitled to consideration and are entitled to a housing programme of the NBA and other agencies to ensure there will be no discrimination against them, particularly against workers who come home or come to the city for employment and who possess skills and crafts which are possibly not available here and find no housing accommodation and are then directed to the local housing authority which is not concerned with housing on an industrial basis.

Very large industrial estates are now being developed in the Tallaght area and I hope the NBA and the local authority or the IDA or whichever body should cater for workers in that area, would come together at an early stage so that this discrimination, so obvious in the past, will not exist in future and that industrial workers will be located near their jobs and so obviate unreasonable travelling. This is particularly desirable in the case of shift workers. We have large industries on the perimeter of Dublin city employing workers on a shift basis, such as those in the Semperit factory in Ballyfermot and who have to come from Ballymun. This is very difficult for them. All workers should have housing close to their employment. If they had, it would relieve much of the stress, strain and tension now existing because of the transport position. Many workers must leave home very early to meet the shift requirements of the bus service. Many have to provide their own transport.

The idea of housing workers near their employment is a very good one. This is something that has been lacking for Dublin workers. I hope in future consideration will be given to this point in the development of industrial estates anywhere. I am mainly concerned with Dublin because I feel there has been discrimination against workers in this regard. If the money is not sufficient, the Minister could come back and I am positive that the House would be only too happy to provide additional finance. I hope the Minister will use his influence with the various agencies concerned with a view to providing with housing key workers coming to this city from abroad or from other parts of the country with skills and crafts. These are people who would have to leave if they could not find accommodation and this happens on many occasions. A skilled worker who is referred to the local authority is told he must have a residential qualification of four years. This matter should be examined immediately to ensure that justice is done across the board. Like Deputy Molloy and Deputy Blaney. I welcome the Bill and I hope the points made by speakers will get consideration by the Minister.

Mr. Haughey

It seems to me that the Deputies who have welcomed and supported the Bill are quite right in doing so because the provision of housing in relation to industrial development is very important and, hopefully, will become more important. Therefore, we all wish the agency every success in its endeavours.

I would urge that possibly greater use be made of the agency and that it be encouraged in every way to pursue its statutory objectives. Recently an industrialist in charge of a well-established industry in the Minister's constituency told me that more significantly than anything else the lack of housing for workers was inhibiting expansion of that industry. That experience, possibly, is repeated in many different areas. I hope the agency will be encouraged by the Minister to go out and look for business in this regard and not merely confine its activities to situations where new industries are envisaged but to keep in mind situations of the type I have mentioned where expansion of existing industries is inhibited by lack of suitable housing for workers.

I also urge the Minister to ensure that the agency should include in its planning and layout of schemes the highest possible level of amenity and facility development. The words "industrial housing" have a certain connotation and I hope the agency to an increasing extent will devote attention to the amenity aspect of its housing estates. With very little effort and attention, any estate can be very considerably improved. The Minister is also interested in this. We should get as far away as possible from the concept of a housing estate which is simply an extension of the industrial premises and should look on housing even though it is provided for workers in a specific industry, as a place where people have to live and children have to grow up and where all sorts of educational facilities and amenities are desirable. In that regard I agree with Deputy Blaney, although from a different point of view, that the agency should give attention to ancillary services where they relate not so much to the industry itself but the housing estate attached to the industry.

The Minister indicated that the agency so far has not had any recourse to borrowing outside the Exchequer. I wonder why that is so. If I understand the Minister's statement it is to the effect that so far any money which the agency have used has been in the form of repayable advances from the Exchequer. If I am correct in that, that situation should be looked at. The resources available to the Minister for Local Government for housing will always be limited and if he can have houses built by the agency with money provided from sources outside the Exchequer that should be done. It would also contribute to the development of an Irish money market if the agency were to issue some form of securities of their own and raise money by the issue of some form of Government guaranteed bonds or something of that nature. There may be some good reason for the present situation and for not changing it but the Minister might give us some indication as to whether he intends to look at the situation and, if it were thought useful, encourage the agency to go outside Exchequer sources for their resources.

The Minister also indicated that the money involved would be required for the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industry. I should like to ask the Minister if he could give us any indication of what is the situation in regard to the provision of housing for State servants generally. When I was Minister for Justice the provision of houses for the Garda Síochána was a very urgent task. Perhaps the Minister would indicate whether that problem has been solved or whether there is still a need to provide houses in different parts of the country for members of the Garda and, if so, whether the agency will engage in the provision of such houses. We know that the force is to be increased considerably in numbers and it is possible that that increase in numbers may give rise to a demand for housing. Would the Minister also indicate whether the agency is engaged or intends to engage in the provision of houses for other State servants such as customs officers, Army personnel and teachers. It seems to me that the agency could, if they were encouraged and sufficiently progressive-minded, perform a very useful role in the whole area of the provision of housing for State service personnel.

Mr. Callanan

I welcome this Bill. This agency have been doing a very good job. However, I should like to ask the Minister whether it is because of an effort to save money that all the houses in housing estates are the same. No matter how nice houses are, if they are all the same it is shocking for the people living there. I would like to see more variety in housing estates. If the reason for this is the cost of planning different types of houses we should forget it because we are ruining the country. I believe it is not good to bring up a family in such an environment. In my county the planning authority when turning down applications for planning permission used the phrase "out of character". As I go through the country I love to see things out of character. I believe it adds to the beauty of the countryside when everything is not in character. The trouble with housing estates is that they are all alike and they are ruining the country both as a tourist attraction and for the people who live in it.

Near the regional hospital in Galway there is a little thatched cottage, completely out of character. It is an attraction and people come to see it and photograph it. Even if the cost is a little more I would like to see more variety. A person building his own house will design the house to his own liking but a person going into an estate must take what he gets. I am not saying those houses are not well built and good structures but they are too much in character. I think we are doing a good job by voting money to this agency but I feel very strongly that we should not have a whole lot of houses of the same design.

Mr. Crowley

I am not in very good voice so I shall limit my statement to a few words. I welcome the Bill. Indeed, I welcome any move which will ensure that more of our people have their own houses. For far too long we have been either burying our heads in the sand or turning a blind eye to the plight of a great number of our industrial workers. Any proposal which can bring about the easing of the housing situation is very welcome.

The NBA have built a considerable number of houses in Cork and while there has been some criticism, and in some cases pretty severe criticism, of the houses, overall it can be said that they answered a very specific need at the time. We should try to ensure that proper standards are applied to all NBA schemes, that they do not just have a cul-de-sac at practically every turn, that there is a proper amount of green space and, generally, that the layout is what we would desire for ourselves if we were living in it. Of course, I know it is probably very difficult to meet or overcome all those restrictions when one gets involved in a scheme such as the NBA undertook this year on a fairly substantial scale. Nevertheless, we should not lose sight of the fact that we are putting people into houses and that they deserve the best we can give them. I do not mean just, as I said, in mere housing.

The time has come when we should be seeking moneys elsewhere to try to raise as much capital as possible, at the cheapest possible rates, to involve ourselves in further house building. I do not know whether it is true but I have heard on the grapevine that the Government are negotiating a fairly substantial loan from some foreign country. I do not want to be too specific lest I interfere in any way with the loan——

Mr. Tully

The Deputy should not give away State secrets whatever he does.

Mr. Crowley

I have not access to State secrets so I canot give them away. I hope the Government succeed in getting this loan and that they will devote a considerable amount of it to housing. The Minister has a man-sized job in front of him to try to meet the targets his Government set.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not stray from the Bill.

Mr. Crowley

I was just mentioning it, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Molloy

Housing target is a dirty word.

Mr. Crowley

Nevertheless, I do think that the easing of planning permission and so on may not be a good thing, certainly in the long run — and I know this may not be a popular view to take — but we must take the long view very often.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy is changing his mind now; that was not what he said to me.

Mr. Crowley

Me? I do not think I ever discussed it with the Minister.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy knows quite well that he did.

Mr. Crowley

I should like the Minister now to be specific. Did I discuss planning permission with him?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair does not want to get into planning permissions at the moment; we are on the National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1974 now.

Mr. Crowley

Just by way of clarification — lest it go out from here that I appear to be contradicting myself — I was on a deputation from Cork County Council which, in the main, welcomed the contents of the Minister's White Paper but that had not very much to do with specific planning or the easing of planning.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy knows very well, too, that it has nothing to do with this Bill.

Mr. Crowley

I must say I agree with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but I wanted to make that clarification, because I might not get an opportunity of putting the record right later on. Nevertheless, I do think the Minister should ensure that in schemes, such as the NBA schemes, we should provide as many amenities as possible and that we should apply the same standards to those of private housing.

The increase from £5 million to £15 million is a fair one but I wonder have we gone far enough. I should like to know what the Minister envisages in the future for the building agency and the type of role he foresees them playing in future development because, again, there is a certain amount of running down of their activities. I do not exactly mean criticism; there has been criticism, but there is a certain running down of the activities of the agency and I should like the Minister to assure us that this will not happen. Otherwise I am very much in favour of the Bill and, indeed, I welcome it.

Mr. Cunningham

I just want to ask, I do not know whether I am in order, but I want to make inquiries about the progress of the fisheries training school at Greencastle, County Donegal. I should like the Minister to indicate what is the progress to date; when it is expected it will be completed and when the school will be available for the purpose for which it was designed, that is, the training of young men in the fisheries field.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy knows that at this stage we are dealing with the National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1974 increasing money for the building of industrial housing.

Mr. Cunningham

I would ask for your guidance, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Tully

I will give the answer to the Deputy. It is completed now and the Department of Education are putting in the equipment. That will save the Deputy breaking the Rules.

Mr. Cunningham

Will the Minister leave it to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and myself please? I look for guidance. The work of the agency now falls into three broad categories: (1) the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industrial expansion; (2) the provision of houses for State employees and (3) the undertaking of houses for local authorities.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

And the Deputy will note, if he reads further on, in the next sentence, that the Bill is concerned with the first of these categories only.

Mr. Tully

It would have helped had the Deputy read the Bill.

Mr. Cunningham

Well, we are all stupid except the Minister; we realise that and we have been told it often enough from the Minister's bench. Instead of saying it so often, he could put it on an answering telephone which would say it for him. I think it might come in under "the provision of housing and ancillary services related to industrial expansion". In other words, a fisheries training school could be an ancillary service related to industrial expansion.

Mr. Molloy

Hear, hear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy will feel that this Bill is concerned with increasing the amount of money available to the agency.

Mr. Cunningham

I am greatly interested in the Greencastle fisheries training school; it is a work undertaken by the National Building Agency. I cannot see that it comes under No. 2 or No. 3; therefore, I should think that it might come in under No. 1.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy does not want the Chair again to tell him at this stage——

Mr. Cunningham

No; I made my point. The other point I did want to mention — and it might be something for the National Building Agency in relation to the provision of housing of the first category — is that we are in an interim stage; the old order seems to be passing and a new order coming up. There is the whole question of housing materials; the use of scarce materials; whether the National Building Agency should go into this fairly thoroughly seeing that it is a matter of concern; what is going to be the future pattern and price; how far can we use native products to a greater degree percentage-wise in the provision of housing? We must eliminate from house buildings some of the materials which hitherto were freely available at reasonable prices. This will not be the score in the future. New materials and methods should be researched by the National Building Agency. An Foras Forbartha are engaged in this type of work. They have carried out investigations and experiments with different kinds of materials in other spheres. Would it be desirable for the NBA to undertake this job themselves?

Our housing grants system may have to be changed to allow for the use of materials which would not at the moment reckon for grant purposes. I suggest that an investigation be carried out to find out what materials are used in house building. In the years ahead, traditional materials will be scarce, sometimes impossible to find and very expensive.

Mr. Timmons

I support the Bill. I congratulate the National Building Agency which was a creation of the Fianna Fáil Government. They have fulfilled the needs of certain sections of our community, who, in other circumstances, would not have been provided with houses.

I was disturbed to read in newspaper reports that the standard of construction in certain parts of the country is being brought into question. The NBA is an organisation which engages contractors to develop certain schemes. It was reported that the quality of work done, in some cases unfinished work, was a matter of grave concern to the people who will live in these houses. Perhaps the Minister would deal with this point.

I should like to refer to those who control the affairs of the NBA. I was very impressed by the contributions made by Deputy Haughey and Deputy Callanan. Deputy Callanan referred to the question of the design of houses. This is a monotonous feature of our housing estates, of local authority and building agency houses, that is, houses which are built by the public authorities whether they be corporations or urban councils, or the NBA. In a report issued——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy is only making a passing reference to this point because we are dealing with the provision of increased money for the agency.

Mr. Timmons

I support that. I was about to comment on the question of those who are charged with the responsibility of guiding the affairs of the agency. I was impressed by Deputy Callanan's reference to the design of houses. Looking at the list of those responsible for directing the affairs of the NBA, I find that there is no scope for appointing, at professional level or otherwise, a housewife to have a say in the design of houses. It is very important that the NBA, or any building agency, should have the advice and guidance of a woman as it is she who will spend the greater part of her life in the house.

Mr. Moore

I welcome this Bill. Anything which promises an expansion of the housing drive will, of course, be welcomed.

Have the agency ever carried out a big urban development? The Minister is aware of the drive to redevelop central Dublin. I suggest that the NBA be entrusted with the planning and designing of houses and flats to be built in the new development areas. Here is a chance of working in something really new in urban renewal, that is, the development of the three-storey town house which gives each family complete privacy. This has been developed on the continent. The suggestion of Deputy Timmons that women should have a say in the design of these flats could be taken into account. With the Minister's backing, this new drive in the city is bound to succeed and provide a new concept of urban housing. The scheme on the 80 acres, from the Liberties to Irishtown — which Dublin Corporation intend to acquire —

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should realise that we are dealing with housing for industrial purposes.

Mr. Moore

This scheme offers an opportunity for new-look housing in these areas and the agency can carry out this scheme. As regards industrial building is there enough co-operation and cohesion between the various statutory bodies? Whose duty is it to provide houses for workers of any category? No opportunity should be lost to provide the agency with the orders for houses and to ensure that they will not be in competition with private developers. They should be given the projects which are not attractive to the private builders. Sites exist in this city on which it would only be possible to erect two or three houses and the NBA should be given such sites. Building firms may consider such a small area of land uneconomic but the agency, as a social investment, could be given such land. I welcome the Bill.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Tully)

I should like to thank the House for the reception given to the Bill. It is what I expected. We are all in favour of advances in the provision of houses and, for this reason, I did not expect the debate on the Bill would last as long as it did. Some interesting comments were made in relation to the agency but I was surprised that Deputy Molloy resented the fact that I was calling on the help of God to ensure that what this Government planned would be carried out. I am sure Deputy Molloy felt he carried on without God and from the results it would appear as if that is so.

With the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle I should like to cover matters which, although not relevant to this Bill, were referred to by more than one Deputy. If I am permitted to give some of the facts which were sought by Deputies I believe it will help. The general housing programme does not arise now. This Bill relates to the financing of industrial housing which is only 1 per cent of the housing programme this year.

However, I should like to put some figures on the record; 18,441 new houses were built in the first nine months of 1973-74. We will complete 6,500 more between the 1/1/1974 and the 31/3/1974. Adding that one finds that it is very close to 25,000. With regard to local authority houses, houses in progress on tender at 31/12/1973 totalled 14,033, 1,000 up on the figure for the previous year; 15,773 more are being planned and thousands of these will commence in the next few months. On the private housing side there has been a falling off a new house grant allocations in 1973-74 as compared with 1972-73——

Mr. Molloy

A drop of 3,000.

Mr. Tully

——but housing is not susceptible to short term changes, however. It is relevant to note that during the period from the 1st April, 1968 to date a total of 83,437 new house grants were allocated but a total of only 61,301 grants were paid. For the information of Deputy Molloy more than £1 million, in fact, £1,020,000, was paid in grants for the first time ever in July gone by in order to catch up on the backlog left by the Deputy when he was in office. There is a balance of 22,136 houses for which grants have been approved but, obviously, the houses have not been completed.

Mr. Molloy

How could there have been a backlog when 3,000 fewer grants were paid?

Mr. Tully

The Deputy should wait and he will get the information. Another indication of the trend in private housing is the number of persons who applied to the lending agencies for house purchase loans. The total here was 15,341 at the 1/4/1972 and that rose steadily to 19,847 at the 31/12/1973. These figures show a positive promise of the continuance of private housing at local level.

Mr. Molloy

How many people succeeded in securing loans? That is what really matters.

Mr. Tully

They got loans. Deputy Molloy, when he was finishing, thumped his breast and said that Fianna Fáil were behind the housing drive. Fianna Fáil did everything they could since they left office to prevent the housing drive getting off the ground but, in spite of them, 25,000 houses will be built in this financial year. This figure will continue to go up in the years to come and the Deputy cannot get away from that.

Mr. Moore

We are not opposing this Bill.

Mr. Tully

The Deputy's party did not oppose it but members of his party tried by various ways, and I must admit there were exceptions, to give the impression that there was not a hope in the world of getting the housing programme operated. It is being operated and that is that.

Mr. Molloy

What about next year?

Mr. Tully

Next year there will be a further substantial increase and I hope Deputy Molloy is here to hear me when I read the figures at the end of the year. The Government are committed to an output target of 25,000 houses per year and they will go up on that. All the talk of Deputy Molloy trying to deny that will not change the facts.

Mr. Molloy

It is a serious drop.

Mr. Tully

The Government are also determined that an increasing proportion of these will be provided in the public sector to cater for a long neglected need. This change in emphasis will take up any slack which may develop on the private side.

Deputy Haughey asked some questions to which he is entitled to a reply because they are relevant to the Bill before the House. The NBA has never refused an application submitted with the benediction of the IDA to provide houses needed to facilitate industrial development. The IDA must approve, and, if they do, the NBA never refuse to carry out their wishes. In the case of industrial housing 112 were built by the agency in 1972-73. We will complete 260 this year. Work is now in progress on a further 456 houses with another 1,015 being planned. These are all industrial houses.

The question was asked about the gardaí and civil servants. The gardaí decided not to have their houses built by the NBA. Apparently, the Board of Works decided to do something about this themselves, but if they come back and ask to have houses built that will be all right. With regard to the Civil Service, no Department, with the exception of the Department of Defence have made a request. For the Department of Defence the NBA recently completed 50 houses for Army personnel at the Curragh and they are building another 20 for the Army at Athlone.

The fact that we are looking for such a major increase in borrowing capacity is the best proof we have that we propose to make very good use of the facilities of the NBA. It is true that all the borrowing has been done from the State but the reason for this is pretty obvious. We all hear of the fellows who go to the offices of Ministers of State and tell of the £20 million they can make available at low interest rates. We have such people all over the place but the plain fact is that, as far as borrowing money is concerned, there is only a certain amount of money available and putting more agencies into the field to borrow that money will not increase the amount available for borrowing. It is felt so far that the State should borrow the money and lend it to the NBA. If it is found that there is a better way of doing this, the present method can be changed.

Deputy Dowling asked how it was that houses were being built for industrial workers in other parts of the country and not in Dublin. Deputy Molloy could give him the answer to that because the previous Government decided, rightly or wrongly, that they would not build houses for industrial workers in Dublin. At present that is being reviewed and we are looking at it to see if the NBA should take part in the building of houses for industrial workers in Dublin. There are two schools of thought about this but we are hoping to have a definite decision on it in the near future.

From the IDA, the output of houses for industrial workers is expected to be of the order of 600 units a year for the five years from 1974-75 to 1978-79 compared with an average of 260 annually in the four years ending 1973-74. No matter what way it is taken extra houses have been built. In addition to this, there is a programme of 10,000 houses being built for local authorities over a five-year period by the NBA. These are in addition to the industrial houses but are not included in this because the money for them is not required since they are provided by the local authorities for whom the houses are built.

While I may not agree entirely with everything that Deputy Callanan said I admit that there should be variety in housebuilding. Obviously it is cheaper to build every house in a scheme to the same design but I can assure the House that for as long as I am Minister for Local Government there will not be built any more of those houses which, because they were to house working-class people, were built cheaply and were of the worst possible materials and designs. I have taken a definite decision that the houses that will be built from now on will be of the best quality and design.

Mr. L. Burke

Hear, hear.

Mr. Tully

Deputy Timmons must have embarrassed my predecessor when he spoke of the bad housing standards that he had read of in the papers. Not only have I read of them but I have looked at some of these houses and "bad" is a mild term to apply to them. Their design was atrocious. An effort was made on a previous occasion to have houses built cheaply and that resulted in the utilisation of bad materials and in bad workmanship. It is something that should never have happened and we took steps several months ago to ensure that it will not happen again.

Mr. Molloy

It is accepted generally in the trade that local authority houses are of a higher standard than are private houses.

Mr. Tully

During Deputy Molloy's term as Minister, local authority houses were of a very low standard. There is evidence of this in many places.

Mr. Molloy

At no time did I give instructions to the effect that cheap materials were to be used.

Mr. Tully

Such instructions were given. The instructions were that cheaper houses were to be built and that resulted in a cutting-down on materials and workmanship. I have the proof of what I am saying.

Mr. Molloy

No such instructions were given.

Mr. Tully

Deputy Timmons spoke of the housewife having a say in house design. When talking of building houses we tend to forget that the person who uses the house more than any other member of the family is the housewife. Until recently her ideas in regard to house design did not seem to matter and, so, houses were built in the way that the men thought fit. There is no housewife on the NBA Board but I changed the composition of that board recently and have added some worthwhile people to it. In addition, I have asked the NBA and other authorities who come within the ambit of the Department to endeavour to ascertain as many views as possible on house design from the housewife's point of view. I am hopeful that this will result in better designing.

Deputy Moore asked whether any survey had been conducted for the purpose of ascertaining whether any major development has been carried out in any urban area. I suppose each of us should strike his breast and say that there was — Ballymun.

Mr. Moore

That is the county.

Mr. Tully

It is in the urban area.

Mr. Moore

It is in the county area.

Mr. Tully

It is part of the corporation area.

Mr. Moore

That does not alter the fact that it is in the county.

Mr. Tully

So far as the constituency is concerned, it is in the county now. However, we shall not quarrel about it. The question was raised, although entirely out of order, as to the renewal of the Dublin city centre. This is a development that we all wish to see take place and I am delighted to be able to say that Deputy Moore and his commissioner colleagues have always been in favour of such development. I expect that in order to carry out the developments we have in mind it will be necessary to seek the assistance of the NBA. I assure the Deputy that the work will be carried out in accordance with the best possible planning and I am confident that the result will be a credit to all concerned. I am not interested in who takes credit for the work. My only hope is that once again the centre of Dublin will be lived in.

Mr. Moore

Hear, hear.

Mr. Tully

I have at my disposal some figures in respect of industrial housing which I wish to give to the House. In respect of Galway, the NBA have a firm order for 100 houses for workers and 30 for executives per annum for the next five years. In Donegal 174 houses are at planning stage. These include 100 houses at Letterkenny for employees of the new Courtauld's factory and the IDA envisage that a further 100 houses will be required in that area to meet final demand. In Limerick the IDA have notified the NBA of a requirement of at least 200 houses in the Foynes and Askeaton areas to meet the demands that are expected to arise there. In Mayo it is estimated that 1,000 houses will be required in future years to meet the demands of the workers to be employed in the three major industries proposed for that area. The immediate requirement there is for 200 houses. In Cork, industrial expansion in the Ringaskiddy and Bantry areas is expected to create a demand for at least 500 houses within the next five years. All of this is good news.

Deputy Blaney referred to the question of ancillary services. The Deputy and I do not seem to be on the same wavelength in this regard because, as I understand the term, ancillary services are services required for houses being built. The Deputy seems to think that the NBA should set out to service areas particularly for industrial sites where water and sewerage facilities are not available already. There has been no proposal in this regard and I doubt whether under the scheme of building industrial houses such services could be included. However, it is a matter that can be looked at. Deputy Blaney, too, referred to the agency's freedom of action being interfered with. I can assure him that the NBA have never had the amount of freedom that they have now. They are using this freedom to the utmost and are doing a very fine job.

Deputy Cunningham referred to Greencastle fisheries school in Donegal. Lest anyone might get the impression that I have a set on Deputy Cunningham I should say at the outset that if the Deputy makes a stupid comment he cannot blame me for reminding him of that stupidity. He had not read the Bill before coming in and thought it contained provisions which it does not contain at all. The Deputy must be aware that the school in question will be completed shortly but that it cannot be taken over for teaching because of the shortage of some equipment and materials, some of which are for roofing purposes. The Departments of Agriculture and Fisheries and of Education are looking after the question of equipment while the IDA and the NBA, for their part, have done everything possible.

Mr. Molloy

That is probably the information that the Deputy was seeking.

Mr. Tully

He must have had that information. I would be aware of the situation in regard to any project in my own area.

There is no application before the NBA from an industrialist in County Meath regarding houses. Perhaps Deputy Haughey would enlighten me in this regard but if the person concerned makes any such application it will receive top priority.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.