Deputy Molloy, on amendment No. 1 with amendments Nos. 8, 9, 12 and 20.
Private Members' Business. - Electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1973: Committee Stage (Resumed).
Debate resumed on Amendment No. 1:
In page 4, in the second column of the entry relating to the constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny, to delete all words after "divisions of:" and substitute the following:
"Moyacomb, Newtownbarry, St. Mary's in the formerRural District of Enniscorthy;
and in the administrative county of Wicklow the district electoral divisions of Cronelea, Coolboy, Coolattin, Shillelagh, Aghowle, Killinure, Rath, Money, Carnew, Ballingate in the formerRural District of Shillelagh”.
—(Deputy Molloy).
On this side of the House we feel that we have made a very strong case in favour of the amendments which we have put here. We feel that the arguments are irrefutable. In fact, no attempt has been made by the Minister to refute or disprove them or to substantiate the reasoning or thinking behind his own proposals which we are seeking to amend in order to make them reasonable. At this stage we would make a final appeal to the Minister to consider the amendments which we have put before him. We would ask the Government to accept those amendments.
If Deputy Molloy is really serious I suppose I will have to reply to him. I would like to say, as I have already said on a number of occasions, that Deputy Molloy had ample opportunity to introduce a Bill such as this if he wanted to or to make any amendments or regulations in respect of Dublin city, an area we are now talking about. He did not do so. I do not know whether that is because he could not do so or because he would not be allowed to do so. I know he made four attempts at change and he has now introduced amendments which bear no relation whatever to what he was suggesting when he was on this side of the House.
As I see it, the situation is that we have introduced a Bill. I consider the Bill to be fair. I have given reasons why I consider it to be fair. The average over the whole country is slanted towards the rural areas rather than the city areas, taking all Ireland into consideration. I am not prepared to agree that we should have another border along the Shannon. We hear much about the Shannon as if it were to be another border but we have enough borders in this country. I do not see any good reason—and there has been no argument made by the Opposition which would convince me—why a change should be made. In fact, a number of speakers from the Opposition side pointed out that all the pluses were in the rural areas and all the minuses in the urban areas; we are now dealing with Dublin.
I never made that statement.
It was made from the Deputy's side of the House at least twice.
Who made it?
The figures are that in Mid County Dublin there is a plus. In North County Dublin there is a minus. There is a plus in South County Dublin. There is a plus in West County Dublin. There is a plus of 93 in Dún Laoghaire. Dublin (Artane) and Dublin (Ballyfermot) each have a plus. Dublin (Cabra) is a minus, as is Dublin (Clontarf). Dublin (Finglas) is a minus, as is Dublin North-Central. Dublin (Rathmines) is a plus. Dublin South-Central is a minus, as is Dublin SouthEast. That proves in fact——
(Interruptions.)
It is a lot of nonsense.
If you would just quieten down I will continue. You know quite well that you got the opportunity. You were not able to do it yourself. Every change in the constituencies which was made in this country was made by Fianna Fáil up to now. As I said last night you are yowling like banshees now because for the first time you are not having your own way.
It is a gerrymander.
I am now putting the question.
Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 61.
Tá
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Belton, Paddy.
- Bermingham, Joseph.
- Bruton, John.
- Burke, Dick.
- Burke, Joan T.
- Burke, Liam.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Clinton, Mark A.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlan, John F.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick M.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Coughlan, Stephen.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Dockrell, Maurice.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dunne, Thomas.
- Enright, Thomas.
- Esmonde, John G.
- Finn, Martin.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fitzpatick, Tom (Cavan).
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Gilhawley, Eugene.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Patrick.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Keating, Justin.
- Kelly, John.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- L'Estrange, Gerald.
- Lynch, Gerard.
- McDonald, Charles B.
- McLaughlin, Joseph.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Malone, Patrick.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, John L.
- Pattison, Seamus.
- Reynolds, Patrick J.
- Ryan, John J.
- Spring, Dan.
- Staunton, Myles.
- Taylor, Frank.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Toal, Brendan.
- Tully, James.
- White, James.
Níl
- Ahern, Liam.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, David.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Brugha, Ruairí.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Carter, Frank.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Gerard.
- Crowley, Flor.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Dowling, Joe.
- Lynch, Jack.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Moore, Seán.
- Nolan, Thomas.
- Noonan, Michael.
- O'Connor, Timothy.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Gene.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, Hugh.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Herbert, Michael.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally William.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Leonard, James.
- Loughnane, William.
- Lynch, Celia.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- Power, Patrick.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Timmons, Eugene.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
Question put: "That the entry in relation to Carlow-Kilkenny stand part of the Bill."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 61.
Tá
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Belton, Paddy.
- Bermingham, Joseph.
- Bruton, John.
- Burke, Dick.
- Burke, Joan T.
- Burke, Liam.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Clinton, Mark A.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Conlan, John F.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Cooney, Patrick M.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Coughlan, Stephen.
- Creed, Donal.
- Crotty, Kieran.
- Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Dockrell, Maurice.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Donnellan, John.
- Dunne, Thomas.
- Enright, Thomas.
- Esmonde, John G.
- Finn, Martin.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Fitzpatick, Tom (Cavan).
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Gilhawley, Eugene.
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Harte, Patrick D.
- Hegarty, Patrick.
- Jones, Denis F.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Keating, Justin.
- Kelly, John.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- L'Estrange, Gerald.
- Lynch, Gerard.
- McDonald, Charles B.
- McLaughlin, Joseph.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Malone, Patrick.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- O'Brien, Fergus.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Donnell, Tom.
- O'Leary, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, John L.
- Pattison, Seamus.
- Reynolds, Patrick J.
- Ryan, John J.
- Spring, Dan.
- Staunton, Myles.
- Taylor, Frank.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Toal, Brendan.
- Tully, James.
- White, James.
Níl
- Ahern, Liam.
- Allen, Lorcan.
- Andrews, David.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Brugha, Ruairí.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Carter, Frank.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Gerard.
- Healy, Augustine A.
- Herbert, Michael.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally William.
- Kitt, Michael F.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lemass, Noel T.
- Leonard, James.
- Loughnane, William.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacSharry, Ray.
- Meaney, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Crowley, Flor.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Dowling, Joe.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Fitzgerald, Gene.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Denis.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gibbons, Hugh.
- Gogan, Richard P.
- Haughey, Charles.
- Moore, Seán.
- Nolan, Thomas.
- Noonan, Michael.
- O'Connor, Timothy.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- Power, Patrick.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Timmons, Eugene.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Browne.
Question declared carried.
We now proceed to the entry for Cavan-Monaghan, to the B group with amendment No. 2 and amendments Nos. 13 and 16. The group refers to Cavan, Monaghan, Louth and Meath.
I move amendment No. 2:
In page 4 to delete the entry relating to the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan and substitute the following:
|
Name |
Area |
Number of Members |
|
Cavan |
The administrative county of Cavan, except the part thereof which is comprised in the constituency of Monaghan; |
Three |
|
and in the administrative county of Meath the district electoral divisions of: Killeagh, Oldcastle, Moylagh, Stonefield, Knocklough, Crosskeys, Crossakeel, Killallon, Ballinlough, Boherboy, Kilskeer, Burry, Loughan, Castlekeeran, Trohanny, Moybolgue, Newcastle, Moynalty, Newtown, Girley, Grennanstown, Stahalmog. |
||
|
Monaghan |
The administrative county of Monaghan; |
Three |
|
and in the administrative county of Cavan the district electoral divisions of: Shercock, Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen, Kingscourt; |
||
|
and in the administrative county of Meath, the district electoral divisions of: Ardagh, Drumcondra, Killary, Grangegeeth, Posseckstown, Nobber, Carrickleck, Kilmainham, Cruicetown, Castletown, Rathkenny, Donaghpatrick, Stackallan. |
This amendment deals with the deletion of the entry relating to the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan and the substitution of a three-seat constituency of Cavan and a three-seat constituency of Monaghan. The Minister's proposal is that there should be created a five-seat constituency in that area comprising the administrative county of Cavan, and the administrative county of Monaghan except that the part thereof which is comprised in the constituency of Louth. We do not agree that it is proper or correct to create such a large constituency in this area. We have shown in our amendment that two three-seat constituencies could have been created here. There are many valid arguments as to why those two counties should not have been grouped together to form a five-seat constituency. Amendment No. 13, which is also under discussion, reads:
In page 9, in the second column of the entry relating to the constituency of Louth, to delete all words after "Louth;" and substitute "and in the administrative county of Meath, the district electoral division of St. Mary's.
The Minister's proposal in relation to the proposed four-seat constituency of Louth is that it should consist of the administrative county of Louth and part of County Monaghan, the area of Monaghan being the district electoral divisions of Drumboory, Inishkeen, Killybegs, in the former rural district of Carrickmacross. An examination of the 1971 census of population for the county of Louth will show that the population there is close to the figure required for a four-seater and we propose to add in one electoral division from the county of Meath, the district electoral division of St. Mary's. The county of Louth would then meet the required population figure for a four-seater and that would involve less disturbance than the method proposed by the Minister.
Amendment No. 16 reads:
In page 10 to delete the entry relating to the constituency of Meath and substitute the following:
"
|
Name |
Area |
Number of Members |
|
Meath |
The administrative county of Meath except the parts thereof which are comprised in the constituencies of Cavan, Monaghan and Louth; |
Three |
|
in the administrative county of Kildare, the district electoral divisions of Cloncurry, Donadea, Kilcock, Ballynadrumny, Cadamstown, Carbury, Carrick, Drehid, Dunfierth, Kilrainy, Windmill Cross, Kilpatrick, Timahoe North, Timahoe South, Balraheen, Maynooth; |
||
|
and in the administrative county of Dublin, Balscadden. |
"
We suggest a three-seat constituency for Meath as against the Minister's proposal to create a four-seater in this area. The Minister's proposal which would involve an area consisting of the administrative county of Meath goes on:
and, in the administrative county of Kildare, the district electoral divisions of:
Cloncurry, Donadea, Kilcock, in the former Rural District of Celbridge No. 1;
Ballynadrumny, Cadamstown, Carbury, Carrick, Drehid, Dunfierth, Kilrainy, in the former Rural District of Edenderry No. 2.
The present Meath constituency is a three-seater so this is a major change.
As I mentioned earlier, the population of County Meath and County Kildare are quite similar but neither of them are quite adequate for the creation of a four-seat constituency. If one is to be made a four-seater it must be topped up with an area from a neighbouring county. I suggest that as Kildare had the greater population recorded in the 1971 census the four-seater should have been created in Kildare with additions. The Minister has chosen to make Meath a four-seater and we propose it should be a three-seater, the reason being we believe that the counties of Cavan and Monaghan, which are Border counties, stretching along a long section of the Border between the Twenty-six and the Six Counties, should not have representation in the Dáil diminished. We recognise that the population of either Monaghan or Cavan on its own is not adequate to allow for the creation of a three-seat constituency. If we are to retain a three-seat constituency in both of those counties there will have to be additions from adjoining areas. This is what we propose in this group of amendments. The substantial population of County Louth, close to the figure required for a four-seater, justifies the creation of a four-seat constituency in Louth. The population of County Louth according to the 1971 census is 74,951. The addition of one electoral district from the county of Meath, the St. Mary's one, where there is a population of 2,201 and which is close to the town of Drogheda, brings it to a neat total of 77,152 which is about the required figure. It is within the constitutional limits and we propose that that constituency should be created.
I have said that according to the census returns Cavan did not have an adequate population for three seats and it requires an addition from adjoining areas. The minimum figure required to keep within the constitutional and Supreme Court provisions for a three-seat constituency is 57,369 but the population of Cavan is only 49,141. We propose the addition of a number of electoral districts in the adjoining county of Meath with a population of 8,484 and to form a constituency of Meath having a three-seater, having a total population of 57,625 which is above the minimum figure of 57,369 required by law.
In the 1971 census the county of Monaghan recorded a total population of 46,242 and there would have to be additions to the county from adjoining areas if it was to have the minimum figure. There is a difficulty in that area of trying to meet this requirement while, at the same time, causing minimum disturbance in adjoining areas. Having accepted the principle as we did that the county of Monaghan should continue to return three Deputies, that there should be a constituency of Monaghan including the whole of the county plus adjoining areas, we had to meet that requirement by taking part of County Cavan into County Monaghan, the district electoral divisions of Shercock, Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen and Kingscourt, with a total population of 3,477. In the administrative county of Meath the district electoral divisions are Ardagh, Drumconrath, Killary, Grangegeeth, Posseckstown, Nobber, Carrickleck, Kilmainham, Cruicetown, Castletown, Rathkenny, Donaghpatrick and Stackallan. That is a total population of 8,062, giving an overall total for the constituency we are proposing of 57,781 population which will allow for the election of three Deputies from that area.
In trying to retain three-seaters in Cavan and Monaghan, it was necessary to cede part of County Meath into both counties and, in fact, Cavan ceded part to Monaghan to help to bring up the level in that area. This would allow for the creation of a three-seat constituency in Meath. This is not new; it is more or less a continuation of the arrangement that exists at present where the county of Meath is supporting the county of Monaghan to bring it to a three-seater The remainder of County Meath has a population of 52,982. To bring that over the required figure we propose transferring electoral divisions from County Kildare with a total population of 9,724 and a small transfer from North County Dublin of 402, making a total for the proposed constituency of Meath of 63,108. This is below the maximum figure of 63,369 which is the high range of the tolerance for a three-seater. As long as we stay within the figures of 57,369 and 63,369 we are complying with the law.
Those are the proposals we put before the House and the Minister must agree strong arguments can be made for the retention of two three-seaters in this area. It is a sensitive area and it has special problems which have been only too tragically highlighted in recent times. The area should have the maximum representation allowable by our Constitution and the interpretation put on it. It involves difficulties in the adjoining counties. The Minister sits in County Meath. I want him to understand that our proposal for a three-seater has nothing to do with that. The fact that it happens to be in the Minister's area, where he would probably stand——
The fact that the portion the Deputy wanted to transfer to Louth is the parish in which I live has nothing to do with it? It is pure coincidence?
The fact that I do not know where that parish is——
The Deputy's local henchman knows it.
This was not involved. Let us keep the debate on a reasonable and sensible level.
The Deputy should have started off on a reasonable level.
Perhaps I am asking too much of the Minister. He is a rather touchy individual. I have stated my intentions quite clearly and if the Minister does not want to accept them that is fair enough. I did not have any intention of interfering with it because it was his constituency. The Minister can take what he likes from that, but that is the position. Obviously, in trying to retain the three-seater in Cavan and in Monaghan one would have to transfer from Meath. It would not have been possible without massive transfers from Kildare, Dublin or Louth to have retained a four-seater as the Minister proposes. As it is a three-seater at the moment there is no great change involved in what we are suggesting.
Our amendments deal with Cavan, Monaghan, Meath and Louth. We propose Cavan should be a three-seater with a population of 57,625; Monaghan a three-seater with a population of 57,781; Meath a three-seater with a population of 63,108 and Louth a four-seater with a population of 77,152. We submit that amendment to the Minister as a reasonable proposal. We ask him to ignore the fact that he has a vested interest in these constituencies and to consider the harm he is doing to the counties of Cavan and Monaghan by reducing their representation. We trust he will recognise the special difficulties and the need for maximum representation for the counties adjoining the Border.
If we wanted a better example of sheer hypocrisy we could not get a better example than what we have listened to in the last half hour while Deputy Molloy told us about what he now proposes to do with the North Leinster area, including Cavan and Monaghan in the Ulster area. As I have already said on a few occasions, the Deputy made four efforts to draw something like a Constituency Bill before he left office. I must assume that he favoured the last one because it proposed to put Cavan and Monaghan into one constituency but today he talks about two three-seaters. In view of the fact that he did not intend if he got the opportunity or was allowed by his Cabinet——
That is not true. I had no proposals.
I listened very patiently to Deputy Molloy making his statement and I hope Deputy Molloy will now have the same patience with me.
Yes.
I am making a categorical statement to the effect that Deputy Molloy doodled through the Department of Local Government. I do not know whether he did anything else, but he was certainly doodling with figures in an effort to do something about the Constituency Bill. He made four efforts and the fourth effort resulted in Cavan-Monaghan as a five-seater constituency. I have the evidence. Let there be no doubt about that. I told Deputy Molloy before that I would produce the evidence.
It has no significance.
I know it has no significance because the Deputy is now over there and I am over here. He did a nice little doodle then in regard to Louth. Louth was to be a three-seater, not the four-seater which he now believes is so justified. Portion of North Meath, north of Navan, bringing in Ardee, County Louth and a portion of Drogheda going out to the sea was to be a three-seater constituency. Then he was to make another three-seater of the rest of it with a portion of County Dublin from Balbriggan. Then he was making a four-seater of Kildare and Wicklow. I described it as a dog's breakfast. That is what he tried to do. He even made a worse job——
It is a lot of nonsense.
Of course it was a lot of nonsense.
Would the Minister deal with his own Bill?
It was a lot of nonsense because it was what Deputy Molloy was doing. I agree with him. It was a lot of nonsense. But now he comes in and he tries to give the impression that he, being a reasonable man, wants to do the right thing and not one bit of resemblance have his proposals now to what he proposed then. This is what he has: he wants Cavan to be a three-seater. Let me say that, when the last Constituency Bill was being drawn up by my predecessor, Mr Kevin Boland, he divided North Meath between Cavan and Monaghan and he divided it very neatly. He divided it at the village I was born in and put one half into one constituency and the other half into the other constituency and at the end of the village County Meath came in.
I do not even know where the Minister was born.
I know he does not and Mr. Boland would not know either unless somebody told him and we know, of course, there was somebody to tell him; there was a cumann. Now in this particular proposal we again have the suggestion to bring Cavan in because of the fact that under Fianna Fáil the population of Cavan continued to drop. That is something that must not be forgotten. It was necessary therefore to bring more of County Meath in.
And the population is dropping since——
Order.
If Deputy Molloy wants to say something more I will let him in but would he please allow me to make my statement? He can then come in and make whatever comments he wants to make on it until 10.30 tonight. The proposal was to move a lot more of County Meath into Cavan along with the portion that is still in it. Then he proposed to move another portion almost up to Navan town into Monaghan. This was the way he was going to make Cavan and Monaghan two three-seaters. Of course he said he was going to do the big thing then: since Louth was almost entitled to four seats he would give Louth four seats and he fixed on the electoral division of St. Mary's, which covers the area of Laytown and Bettystown. I live in Bettystown, but this was purely accidental.
I do not know where the Minister lives.
Deputy Molloy does not know where I live, moryah! He has not got a clue. The effort was made and the only difference now is that by the time he thought of it he was sitting over there and he cannot get away with it. That is the only difference because, if somebody had told him when he was over here, I am quite sure he would have tried to pull it off and forced me to stand in County Louth. It would be a nice handy constituency, but I am not that kind of guy; I prefer to stand for the county I belong to. This meant that he was going to have the administrative county of Cavan, except the part thereof comprised in the constituency of Monaghan, so portion of Cavan was going to be added to Monaghan and portion of Meath added to Cavan and County Monaghan was going to have Monaghan itself, portion of Cavan and portion of County Meath. I am sure Deputy Molloy did not believe in crossing county boundaries or anything like that: take a bit here and a bit there and put the whole thing together and call it something and that would be a constituency.
There was only one reason, of course, why this was proposed. It was different from what is being done by me and Deputy Molloy would like to have something in here for which he thought he might get a certain amount of support. I want to tell the two Deputies opposite from Monaghan and Cavan, who are representing their areas very well that no matter what anyone may say, there will come out of the five-seater comprising Monaghan and Cavan excellent representatives, those who will be able to represent Monaghan and Cavan as a constituency, as they have always done, so Deputy Molloy need not worry about the necessity, because it is along the Border, of having enough people to represent the people there because the people who will come in here to represent them, no matter who they are, and irrespective of what party they belong to, will make a good job of it. Deputy Molloy can be sure of that. He came along then and he was putting Louth with a portion of St. Mary's electoral division of Meath and then he was coming along to Meath itself and he had the rest of County Meath, except the portions he was giving to Louth and to Cavan and to Monaghan, and then to make it even he pushed in a good slice of Kildare. Having looked at it then there was something wrong with the mix. It was like the old lady making the Christmas cake: it did not look quite right and she wondered if there was something else that should be put in to make it different and Deputy Molloy, with his Christmas cake, put in Balscadden from County Dublin. Here we have a Monaghan constituency made up of Monaghan, Cavan and Meath; a Cavan constituency made up of Cavan, Monaghan and Meath and a Meath constituency made up of Meath, Louth and Dublin. And this is what Deputy Molloy calls a rational way of drawing up constituencies.
The Minister is all wrong.
There is no Louth and Meath.
Portion of Meath, Louth and Dublin in Meath—that is what we have.
The Minister is getting mixed up.
I would not be a bit surprised if I got confused attempting to try to follow what Deputy Molloy was trying to put across. If he succeeded in confusing me think of the confusion he would cause the people when they would waken up at the next election and start looking for where they were to vote; they would not know whether they were Meath, or Louth, or Cavan, or County Dublin.
What part of Monaghan is in Cavan?
There must be no interruptions. They only lead to heat and acrimony and that does not help the debate.
Deputy Molloy is as well aware as I am that the arrangements made in this Bill are perfectly reasonable while the suggestions he has been making are absolutely ludicrous. He made play of the fact that I put a fourth seat into Meath. In a peculiar way he tried to suggest I did this in order to save my own seat. I would like to remind Deputy Molloy now that in the last election I had 1,000 votes more than the next Fianna Fáil man. On the cards it might appear that this would give Fianna Fáil another seat in that area, and good luck to them, but perhaps there is somebody down there the party do not like too well who might come up because the last time there was a one-man show being operated in Meath and the result was that representation of the Fianna Fáil Party in Meath changed. I do not want to enter into the local vendetta which may go on in these things. The only reason for this was that it became necessary to put portion of Kildare into West Dublin. I can assure Deputy Molloy that in four years when the general election comes along if I stand for Meath I will get elected. In years gone by before the last carve-up, before portions of Meath were taken away and given to Monaghan and Cavan, I polled more than 1,000 votes above the quota despite the efforts of Deputy Molloy's predecessor. They could not get me out of the Dáil and any similar attempt by these amendments will also fail.
This has nothing to do with it. We are not discussing personalities.
It shows the petty mind behind the person who drew up these amendments. It was done in order to create a problem. Why Deputy Molloy should show his hand in this way, with this ridiculous proposal, I do not know. When this Bill was being drawn up it was very fairly done. Nobody will deny that Louth had to get a four-seater. Some small portion of Monaghan had to go in. I am sorry for that but it will be generally admitted that the portion which has been put in was the smallest possible and although I dislike breaching county boundaries, this is one case in which it became necessary.
As far as Monaghan and Cavan are concerned, those of us living in or near that area appreciate that in the main the two counties have the same type of economy. Largely they are the same type of people, very decent people, a mixture of the different cultures and different ways of life that do not exist elsewhere. They get on very well together and it is natural to put together Monaghan and Cavan in a five-seater.
Meath was a three-seater, covering the whole area. Then some of it was put into Kildare some years ago, then portion was added to Monaghan and portion to Cavan. Then portion of Kildare had to go to Meath and the situation now is that portion of Kildare will be added to Meath in order to make a four-seater. Again, I am sorry for the necessity to break a boundary but as long as the High Court decision remains and the Constitution remains there is nothing anybody can do about it—it had to be done in that way.
It could have been done in our way.
Is the Minister suggesting we go to the High Court?
If the Deputy wishes to go to the High Court he is perfectly entitled to do so—he has a perfect legal right.
I thought the Minister was suggesting it.
All my suggestions are written in this Bill which is the most reasonable that could have been introduced. If I had wished to do it, as Deputy Molloy suggests, I could have brought in North County Dublin. I notice Deputy Burke is not here this evening.
He is at a meeting— in North County Dublin.
I hope he comes in before this debate finishes.
I notice there is only one Deputy behind the Minister.
Deputy Molloy is getting annoyed.
Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,
When I was speaking a few moments ago Deputy Molloy succeeded in confusing me and I want to put the record straight. Deputy Molloy's amendment proposed that Cavan would consist of part of Cavan and part of Meath; Monaghan would consist of part of Cavan, part of Meath and the rest of Monaghan; Louth would consist of all of Louth and part of Meath; and Meath would consist of part of Meath, part of Kildare and part of Dublin. We all know of the shocking row there was during the last revision when Leitrim was split three ways. This time there is a row because it is being split two ways. Deputy Molloy wants to split Meath four ways. I know there was no ulterior motive when he did this. It was a pure coincidence. But the fact that it was the only constituency at which he really had a go would suggest that there was a little more——
It is not true.
What is not true?
That there was anything personal in the way in which my amendment was drawn up.
Peculiar coincidences occur and I will accept that.
If the Minister tries to make Cavan and Monaghan into two three-seat constituencies he will see what I mean.
I would not try to do it because it would be wrong.
We must look at all possibilities.
The Deputy has hit the nail on the head. When one tries to make Cavan and Monaghan into two three-seat constituencies one immediately runs into trouble and County Meath has to be broken up badly to do it. Deputy Molloy might do that but I would not. Cavan and Monaghan together, with the exception of 2,400 people, make a natural five-seater. That was a very good reason why——
This gave the Minister the opportunity to pinch a seat from Ulster.
What is the definition of a natural five-seater?
(Interruptions.)
Deputies will have an opportunity of speaking later.
A natural five-seater is one which would fit in evenly with the numbers, and there would be no difficulties with the people. Meath and Cavan people are not the same, as I am sure Deputy Wilson will agree. I was born on the Meath-Cavan border and there is a difference in the outlook of the people in those two areas. There is no difference between the Cavan and Monaghan people. There are two different cultures and two sets of people who work well together. They are the best integrated people I know. Therefore, I think it was the natural thing to do.
Was it the four out of six which made it a natural choice?
No. The by-election results would suggest that four out of six could go either way. That was not the reason. I am not expecting Deputies to accept it but I am giving them the facts as they are. Deputy Cunningham referred to the fact that I was pinching a seat from Ulster. I would like to remind him that I gave five seats to Donegal so he has nothing to complain about.
The Minister is taking two seats from Ulster.
Deputies will have an opportunity of speaking later.
I do not want to travel all over the country to Donegal at this stage. I have given five seats to Donegal, and a constituency beside it. Unless one is prepared to say that the people who represent that portion outside are not representing Donegal at all, then one must accept that Donegal is well represented, as Cavan and Monaghan will be. With five seats in Cavan and Monaghan——
That is a facile argument.
That is a new word the Deputy learned from the BBC and he has overworked it.
That is what the interviewer said to the Minister and it is very true.
The Chair has asked Deputies not to interrupt.
It does not matter very much if they are true.
The charge that the Minister makes facile statements is true.
I do not want to go into a discussion which we had with the BBC interviewer in Galway. That would be out of order. I would rather make a facile statement than some of those which Deputy Molloy made there and which will appear on the BBC this week.
Tomorrow night at 8 o'clock.
The Deputy had better make sure that the boys are not looking or he is really in trouble. Deputy Molloy has put down a number of amendments to the part we call North Leinster with Cavan-Monaghan added. He has attempted to make out of a perfectly good proposal what I have on a number of occasions described as a dog's breakfast. I could not accept these proposals because there is neither sense nor meaning in them. They would not improve the position; as a matter of fact, they would disimprove it very much. After a few more years of National Coalition Government when the population of Cavan-Monaghan get an opportunity of building up under a good Government, I will be very glad to give them back extra seats. It would give me great pleasure to give them an extra seat each but as it stands they are getting exactly what the Constitution——
What they deserve.
What they are entitled to.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister is in possession.
Let us be realistic. There is no point in confusing ourselves.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies may not carry on a discussion among themselves. Deputy Coughlan and other Deputies are not in possession. Deputy Coughlan must allow the Minister to speak.
The Deputy told the Minister what to do and he did it and fair play to him.
(Interruptions.)
As Deputy Coughlan is aware, I am a most patient man. I have listened to what has been going on for a long time. I do not want to take up the time of the House or the time of the Opposition. I am sure they want to discuss the west of Ireland. Perhaps they may be able to think up some new things to say because they said a lot about the west when they were discussing Dublin.
As far as I am concerned, I consider that the proposals in the Bill are far superior to the proposals made by Deputy Molloy. There is no reason why they should be changed and I do not propose to accept his amendments.
I admire, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, your Olympean and judicial attitude and I also remember your appeal to leave acerbity out of the debate. I hope to follow your solid guidelines and not to ruffle the Minister and draw fire on myself. I know there are two ways of dealing with a hedgehog; I have chosen the one which does not excite him to put out his spines.
I am appealing to the Minister to accept Deputy Molloy's very solid amendments, and I am appealing on what I think are very solid grounds. Nowadays there is great talk about community development. In order to have community development we must have a community. I submit to you. Sir, that that is precisely what we have in Cavan, a community well developed, with a unified spirit. Here I would reject the Minister's proposition that there are two cultures in Cavan. I think I know what the Minister is referring to. There may be two religions; perhaps he is listening too carefully for an intelligent man—and I know he is one—to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I reject the idea that there are two cultures in County Cavan. There are variants in religion all right, but we have a single, unified community, and it is on that basis that I am appealing to the Minister to accept Deputy Molloy's very intelligent amendment as to what he proposes to do.
The Gaelic Athletic Association is very strong in County Cavan and some people have blamed it in the past for attaching over-importance to county. Be that as it may—I am not admitting that that is so—it did play a big part in welding the whole county into a single community, with a singleness of purpose very often that has nothing to do with games. The principle town in the county is almost at the centre geographically, and this has a unifying influence on the county.
We have one local paper in County Cavan. I lived in Donegal for a time where there were four or five papers and I know the difficulty of dealing with, say, organisations of any kind when you have to pay for four different advertisements. In my county we have a local paper. It does not necessarily support the political party I belong to, but it is a fair paper, and it also has this unifying mission. It watches out for developments in the county. It also covers a small part of Monaghan and of course it is interested in the whole country and in Europe and the world, as a good paper would be. It has, as I say, this mission and has had since the family that owns it came from Dublin in the last century and made an Irish and nationalist paper out of it.
The Minister said that Deputy Molloy, when he was Minister for Local Government, was doodling. I think he was a very good Minister. In relation to what he said about Cavan and what he intended to do, the Minister knows quite well that until proposals have been hardened, have been finally settled, have been drafted and brought into this House, they are merely an exercise. He knows that even if you have a codicil to a will, if it is not signed, sealed and delivered it has no validity in law. Therefore, I think it is a little bit much of the Minister to be criticising Deputy Molloy for what he claimed were Deputy Molloy's proposals for this area.
As I have said, this is a unified area. It has a community spirit. It was the ancient Kingdom of Breffni. The Deputy from Ballinamore is no longer here, but he would agree that perhaps there is more of a kinship with his area than there is with Monaghan, not that we have not always got on very well with the Monaghan people. The major portion of the county, of the extra Cavan territory that Deputy Molloy proposes in his amendment to take in, is that around Oldcastle In ancient times it was part of Breffni. The O'Reillys, while they were not exactly marauders, did add that part of the County Meath to their territory, and this tradition of a link, a nexus, between Oldcastle and that part of Cavan around Mountnugent, Castlerahan, that whole semi-circle, still exists; in fact Oldcastle is its natural capital and so on.
In the times of fairs and markets that circle was even wider and took in a larger territory. However, there is still a kind of spiritual relationship between that part of County Cavan and Oldcastle. It is one that we have cultivated, and Oldcastle and its environs fit well into the Cavan constituency. I think the Minister knows this himself. We are very proud of the connection, very proud of the ancient town of Oldcastle which was to the forefront in every national cause since the beginning of the century. As the Minister probably knows, the words "Sinn Féin" were used as the title of a paper in that town long before Arthur Griffith set up his organisation of that name and he had to get permission from that town to use that name.
If the Minister looks carefully at the map of what he proposes, he will see that the constituency he proposes for us is huge; it is an amorphous one: from my house, which is almost on the Westmeath border to Armagh; from my house to Aughnacloy in Tyrone. It is a huge area, and all the arguments that have been put forward about the revitalising of rural life are valid arguments, and this revitalising is a different proposition when you have a huge area like that and you want to service it as best you can in Parliament.
The Minister referred to the falling of the population in the area. The Fianna Fáil Party were conscious of that, and I submit the most important single piece of legislation that came before this House a propos the maintenance of rural Ireland was that which set up these specially designated areas for the development of small and medium-sized industries. If the Minister consults the figures from the last census, he will see in relation to Cavan that the areas that have a plus sign, in other words, areas where the population increased, were the areas where new industries were established.
This is the way the Fianna Fáil Party want to deal with the decline in rural population which, as I said before in another debate, is a European and worldwide phenomenon, and it is one that needs drastic methods to counteract. The Minister said that, of course, it was not really Cavan; I submit, with respect, that substantially this is the historic area of Cavan, not what the Minister is trying to weld together, Cavan and Monaghan. I have already made the point about Oldcastle, that it was naturally in our sphere of influence, if that is not too pedantic a term to use in the circumstances. The tradition has been there for a long time. The tradition of representation in the constituency has been a noble one from the time that Mr. Biggar represented us. Mr. Biggar, as Members are aware, was the man who, with Roynane, invented the parliamentary tactic, not employed in this House, of obstruction through Arthur Young who came from what is now the Six Counties, as did Biggar and Arthur Griffith, when a new Ireland was awakening.
It is a great pity that county is no longer a constituency. It is a break in the chain of tradition which saddens me.
(Interruptions.)
If Deputy Coogan wishes to intervene I will give way to him.
He had a very interesting comment to make to me.
Is it worth sharing? Because if it is interesting, and coming from Deputy Coogan it would be news, I would like to hear it.
We do not want to listen to any geography lesson from a secondary teacher. We want present day facts.
Deputy Wilson without interruption. If Deputy Coogan wishes to intervene in this debate he is welcome to do so. Deputy Wilson without interruption.
I am grateful to the Chair. I need protection from Deputy Coogan.
Prime Minister Wilson. The Deputy thinks he is the Prime Minister now.
The interruptions must cease.
The Deputy joined the party at the wrong time and that is what is galling him. I was here 20 years before the Deputy and I will be here after him.
The interruptions must cease. I want Deputy Wilson on the Schedule without interruption.
I am sorry if Deputy Coogan mistakes geography for what was history but that is a minor point. There was a fine tradition from Biggar to Smith in my constituency and I would like to see the constituency maintained as it has been maintained substantially over the years. I am aware that the Minister came originally from the Moynalty area and I am also aware that Deputy Molloy did not know this when he was constructing his amendment. There was nothing personal in it.
The Deputy discussed it with Deputy Molloy?
Deputy Molloy discussed this matter with Deputy Leonard and myself and we were anxious to retain Cavan and Monaghan. I am appealing to the Minister for the reasons I have given to consider this amendment and I should like to thank Deputy Molloy for trying to maintain this thread of tradition. I know the Minister has not as hard a heart as he pretends and I recommend to him acceptance of this amendment.
Unless I forget Deputy Wilson's points I should like to intervene at this stage. Deputy Wilson has said that Cavan is a natural unit and implies that, therefore, it is wrong to join it to any other county for constituency purposes. The fact is that Cavan has a population of only 52,618 which is 4,751 short of the minimum required for three seats. Deputy Wilson then makes a plea to revert to the old kingdom of Breffni.
On a point of information, I did not make that plea. I mentioned that Breffni went eastwest and not north-south which is what the Minister's proposition is doing.
Even the kingdom of Breffni did not go up and if Deputy Wilson read the amendment he would discover that in addition to the portion which was in the kingdom of Breffni, Killeagh, Oldcastle, Moylagh, Stonefield, Knocklough, Crosskeys he moves up to Crossakeel, Killallon, Ballinlough, Boherboy, Trohanny, Moybolgue, Kilskeer, Burry, Loughan, Castlekeeran, Newcastle, Moynalty, Newtown, Girley, Grennanstown and Stahalmog. Deputy Wilson, who knows the area almost as well as I do, goes from Moynalty to Newtown, the area where Carlanstown is, and then he skips Kells and goes out between Kells and Navan to Girley. How he got that into it beats me.
To do this would mean chopping areas which are in the Meath constituency and cross into Cavan. Girley and Grennanstown are near Athboy, the Athboy side between Kells and Navan, and Stahalmog is near Castletown. I am prepared to admit that if I started to go through areas I did not know and just picked them off a list in Galway I might possibly make the same mistake but it does appear as if Deputy Molloy has made a few bloomers in this. I am not blaming him because it is possible it is a mistake I would make.
Stahalmog is between Carlanstown and Castletown and the Meath-Monaghan constituency comes in between it and any of the rest of the portion of Cavan mentioned. I am sure Deputy Wilson agrees with that.
Carlanstown was in the constituency for the last election.
Carlanstown was but the area around it is in Monaghan. Now it is suggested that an area beyond the Monaghan area should be brought across Carlanstown in some peculiar way and into the Cavan constituency. I do not know how it is proposed to do this but it is also proposed that Girley and Grennanstown, which is within five or six miles of Navan, should be brought down and added to the Cavan constituency. This is making it a little bit ludicrous. This shows how ridiculous the whole thing is.
To return to the Monaghan constituency—this is something to which Deputy Leonard should refer when he speaks—the proposal is that in the administrative county of Cavan the electoral divisions of Shercock, Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen and Kingscourt should be included in Monaghan. I am sure Deputy Wilson's heart will be b'eeding for the ancient kingdom of Breffni there because he is losing them to Monaghan. They are being swiped away: the marauders are in again. A minute ago the Deputy was not willing to give an inch but now he is giving to the constituency of Monaghan from the administrative county of Cavan the district electoral divisions of Shercock. Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen and Kingscourt. It is proposed that they should go into Monaghan and this makes nonsense again of the whole argument.
However, Deputy Wilson does even better. He goes into County Meath and gives to Monaghan the district electoral divisions of Ardagh which to us is Kilmainhamwood, Drumconrath, Killary which is Lobinstown and is near Ardee. Grangegeeth which is between Ardee and Drogheda, Posseckstown which is beside Nobber, Nobber itself. Carrickleck which is doubling back towards Carrickmacross. Kilmainham which is Kilmainhamwood and is near Kingscourt, Cruicetown which is between Kilmainhamwood and Carlanstown, Castletown which is near Navan, Rathkenny which is between Castletown and Slane and is about six miles from Navan and five or six miles from Slane, Donaghpatrick which is about four miles from Navan and on the far side of the Gibbstown Gaeltacht— Gibbstown has been left out—and Stackallan which is to one side of Slane. Deputy Molloy's attitude so far as this amendment is concerned reminds me of a child playing a game of Monoply.
That is the Minister's game.
Monoply is what this Bill is all about—the monopoly of the Government.
The game involves a player being able to hop from one side to another in order to take something he wants. Deputy Molloy has been playing a little game of Monopoly of his own because he has begun swiping areas throughout the county which bear no relation either to Cavan or to Monaghan. He thought these places might look well on paper. Unfortunately, I do not know the rest of the country as well as I know County Meath but I know every stick and stone in Meath and, consequently, I am well aware of what has happened in this case. Even if I were to say to Deputy Molloy now that I am prepared to accept his amendment, the situation would be unworkable. We would be the laughing-stock of the country if we were to allow this sort of thing to happen.
Will the Minister accept the principle of what is proposed?
Principle, my eye. There is no principle in the proposal.
We want two three-seaters and the Minister can draw them any way he wishes.
The Minister, without interruption.
We have Deputy Molloy talking of three-seaters and Deputy Wilson telling us that we must keep together the kingdom of Breffni. The Deputy got on his high steed, raced around the boundaries and did not notice that Deputy Molloy was handing over to Deputy Leonard in Monaghan the two Cavan towns of Shercock and Kingscourt.
We are endeavouring to maintain the constituency in a substantial condition.
Having endeavoured to hand over part of the constituency to Monaghan, whoever advised Deputy Molloy then dashed into County Meath but, apparently, got lost on the way and took some very big jumps.
The areas we are talking of are adjoining areas.
They are not.
I say they are.
Order. The Minister, without interruption.
The more I peruse the amendments, the more ridiculous they become and the more amazed I am that anybody could present them to the House. No doubt Deputy Molloy did not draw up the amendments without having some advice from people who know the area. In his efforts at this horse trading he must have had some advice from the local people but, whatever advice he may have got, it was not natural to put into Louth the area of Meath that is mentioned in his amendment. What he proposes is that portion of Meath be put into Cavan and Monaghan although he is not even endeavouring to keep adjoining areas together.
They are adjoining areas.
It may be all right for Deputy Wilson to hand over his share of the vote in Shercock, Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen and Kingscourt to Deputy Leonard although I do not know whether the latter would be happy about his receiving the vote from those areas.
Enniskeen is in Monaghan but the Minister is putting it into Louth.
I am reading only portion of the amendment that Deputy Molloy put down.
Let us hear what the Minister put down.
Order.
If Enniskeen is in Monaghan, the position is more ridiculous than what I had thought and is something that the Deputies should give to some musichall.
The Minister is putting Enniskeen into a different province.
Let me read Deputy Molloy's proposal for the new constituency of Monaghan:
...and in the administrative county of Cavan the district electoral divisions of: Shercock, Taghart, Lisagoan, Enniskeen, Kings-court;...
Is the Deputy denying that this is what he intended? There must be a little place called Enniskeen along that border.
The other one is Inniskeen.
I am talking of Enniskeen.
The Minister is putting part of Monaghan into Louth.
I am not denying that.
He is moving an area from one province to another.
Order.
Does Deputy Cunningham not know that in the constituencies Act which he supported here in 1969, a very large portion of Louth was put into Monaghan? Was that not transferring an area from one province to another?
We were told then that it was one of the seven deadly sins to have done so.
Will Deputy Cunningham please restrain himself and cease interrupting?
What has the Minister done with Lisdoonvarna?
We are talking of Deputy Molloy's proposal in relation to the counties of Cavan and Monaghan.
(Interruptions.)
Is the Minister to be shouted down?
I can assure the Chair that I shall not be shouted down by the people opposite.
We are merely helping the Minister along.
It would be a poor day for me if I should need help from the Deputy. Having endeavoured to put into Monaghan the areas of Cavan that I have mentioned Deputy Molloy then directed his attention to County Meath—to Ardagh so as to ensure that Denis Farrelly will continue to be in Monaghan—to Drumconrath, Killary, Grangegeeth, Posseckstown, Nobber, Carrickleck, Kilmainhamwood, Cruicetown and, having gone from there, went straight across Kilbeg to Castletown, Rathkenny, Donaghpatrick and Stackallan.
A nice part of the country.
I know it is: I was born and reared there. If they had included Stahalmog in that there would have been continuity but by putting Stahalmog into Cavan where it has no connection, they have made the proposal look absolutely ridiculous.
Is the Minister suggesting an amendment?
No, but I am suggesting that the Deputy would do the decent thing, that is, withdraw the amendment before the House and not waste any more time on it.
It is our opinion that there should be two three-seaters, one in Cavan and one in Monaghan.
If Deputy Molloy wishes to contribute he may offer when the Minister has finished and he will be afforded the best of order.
I believe there should be a five-seater for Cavan and Monaghan with 2,400 people being put into the Louth constituency to make that a four-seater. It is possible to make a five-seater of Cavan and Monaghan without breaching any other boundary and without transferring people in the way the Deputy has suggested.
The Minister is killing the Cavan community.
I am not and I am not giving away any of Cavan to Monaghan. Neither am I borrowing a portion of Meath in order to make up a five-seater of Cavan and Monaghan. I am not going up as far as Navan.
The people of Oldcastle have not objected.
When I was there recently the 103 people who attended my clinic informed me that I was the first TD they had seen in the area since the last election.
Obviously, the Ministera is not reading the Meath Chronicle. I challenge him to read last week's edition of that paper.
Order.
I told them that they did not need to change their views but that I knew they needed representation.
(Interruptions.)
Since I started going down there Deputy Wilson has also decided to come along. Good luck to him. If he goes down there and helps me out with the 103 people that is good. That number was a large one to deal with in one night. I would be glad if the Fianna Fáil supporters went to Deputy Wilson.
I never knew that finnscéalta came from County Meath.
The ancient kingdom of Meath is still there and the ancient constituency of Meath will be there when this Bill goes through. It will include Oldcastle. Some people vote Fianna Fáil, but they are decent people in the main. We will give them excellent service.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Crinion gives good service.
He is a very hardworking Deputy.
He made the Minister chase around.
(Interruptions.)
Back to the Schedule, please.
Before Deputy Crinion left Fine Gael I was dealing with the people from County Meath and giving them good representation. No matter what way one looks at the proposals in this Bill, they are better than anything proposed by Deputy Molloy. Even Deputy Wilson, having spoken in favour of Deputy Molloy's amendments, is now wondering why he did not read the Bill first——
I want Cavan.
You can have Cavan and Monaghan in beside it. Deputy Wilson cannot get away from one fact. While there are areas out towards Leitrim which might be better off or more easily serviced by Leitrim, if we wanted to break county boundaries across the centre, the area of Monaghan and Cavan is between 50 and 55 miles. I have driven across it during a by-election.
What is the distance from Granard to Aughnacloy?
I am talking about the areas within Monaghan and Cavan. The area which Deputy Wilson is talking about is less than the existing area which is covered by the existing constituency of Meath, without the addition which has been put on to it. It is 60 to 65 miles from one end to the other. I have travelled it. Deputy Wilson has less in that area. He wants to go from where he lives across to the extreme end of Monaghan.
There is something wrong with the Minister's mileometer.
I know that area very well. I spent much time in it. As Deputy Wilson knows, I have been through it. I also know Deputy Wilson's area well. Deputy Wilson said that the area of Cavan was well represented down through the years. It was fairly well represented and so was Monaghan. I am not quarrelling about that. It has had good representatives. It will continue to have good representatives but the difference will be that they will have a selection of five representatives. They will be able to call on five different TDs after the next general election.
They have six Deputies now.
They have three in one constituency and three in the other.
It is 80 miles from my door to Aughnacloy.
Aughnacloy is not in Monaghan. The Deputy can go around in circles if he wants to make the distance longer. Deputy Leonard knows the area well.
The Minister's speedometer is wrong.
I can give the Minister the figures.
Not on this occasion. I do not want to delay the House any longer. I think I have given ample proof that the amendments put down by Deputy Molloy just do not stand up to criticism. The obvious thing for the Deputy to do is to withdraw them. I suggest that he should do so now.
I make an appeal as I made earlier in the debate to the Minister to examine Deputy Molloy's proposals. They differ only very slightly from the proposals which I made in a contribution earlier when I asked on that occasion for Monaghan, Cavan and Louth to be three three-seater constituencies and the Minister's own constituency to be a four-seater. This is just a small change. Looking at the map, which we did not do when we were examining the position, I find that Deputy Molloy's proposals are, according to the map, sounder than they seemed to be at first. The biggest mistake the Minister is making—and a rural Deputy especially would feel this—is that he is inclined instead of bringing the population away from Dublin to cluster it in. He is bringing part of Monaghan into Louth which is a small compact, highly-industrialised county. It is a heavily populated county. It is like bringing apples into an orchard. The Minister is adding to the number of votes in Leinster, an area which has done very well with the additional Deputies. By doing that the Minister is taking from the province of Ulster where there are three counties—Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal. He is reducing representation there from 12 to ten.
No matter what way you look at this there will be great complaints from people who represent that area. I was thinking of the Minister as the man from God-knows-where while they were talking about Meath. Other representatives here of different political opinions from mine should also make their contributions and complain now about the loss of two seats in Ulster. If you look at the Monaghan-Cavan constituency you will see that it runs across 70 miles with a border running almost from the Irish Sea to the Atlantic Ocean. Instead of 66 miles, 166 miles would be nearer to it.
If you go around by the border.
It could be 180 or 190 miles. From that point of view it looks as if it would be very unwieldy, leaving out of the question the loss of representation, the loss of the seat. Deputy Molloy's suggestion is very commendable and the Minister should give serious thought to it. We spend a lot of time crying about the depopulation of the rural areas. This Bill is a very effective effort to depopulate them. Patrick Kavanagh used to talk about 100 years from now. He was the only notability we had in the county and now even his grave will be in a Leinster constituency.
He lived in Leinster for a long time.
He was a Monaghan man and he was the only notability we had.
James Connolly was born down there, too.
He was of earlier stock.
James Connolly was not born in Monaghan.
He was.
He was born in Edinburgh.
He was not. He was born in Monaghan.
Can we get back to the Schedule?
The Minister accused Deputy Molloy of doodling but his doodle was much more effective than the Minister's.
A five-seater for Monaghan-Cavan was his doodle.
Two three-seaters.
When he was in office. I have proof of that if anyone wants to see it.
There was no proposal.
The Minister wailed about Deputy Molloy wanting to move Shercock and Kingscourt into the Monaghan constituency. I drive through that area coming to Dublin and it is very hard to know when you are in Monaghan and when you are in Cavan. If you look at the map you will see that Deputy Molloy's approach is a commonsense one. I would ask the Minister to look at it very closely. He mentioned the by-election in Monaghan but at that time very little mention was made by any of the coalition speakers about the constituencies Bill.
I explained that Deputy Molloy proposed to give you a five-seater the same as I proposed to do.
That is not true.
I do not remember that much play was made about making Monaghan-Cavan a five-seater.
Fianna Fáil tried to get votes by claiming they would keep it a three-seater. That did not work so the Deputy has to accept the two sides of it.
If the Coalition thought it was a good arrangement and that it would be of benefit to the Monaghan people, they should have stated that in handbills and pamphlets. Had they suggested that Monaghan-Cavan should be a five-seater that might have been more honest. The people of Monaghan would have known the thinking of the Coalition Government. They would have questioned them prior to the election on their stand on the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. I expected that the Deputies from Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan would have made some sort of a stir when they found that two seats were being taken out of Ulster. Where we had 12 seats, they are being reduced to ten. Had it been put on paper that this was the thinking, the result would probably have been different. The Minister said the National Coalition Government were a good Government and I thought he meant to imply that their type of Government would increase the population of Monaghan-Cavan.
That is exactly what I meant.
I hope the population does increase but, after 12 months of Coalition Government, the indications are that the small farmers who are the backbone of the population in Monaghan and Cavan——
I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but what he is now embarking upon does not seem to be relevant.
The point I am making is that by their effort or by their lack of effort the Government brought about a decline in the small industries and in the small farming incomes and, instead of increasing the population, they had the opposite effect. That is all I wish to say on it. I would ask the Minister to sleep on it and think over Deputy Molloy's proposals whereby at least he would leave us 11 seats out of the 12 in Ulster and not take the second seat away from us.
I think Deputy Leonard made a fair speech and made his point with his tongue in his cheek. Deputy Leonard must have been aware that the voters of Monaghan were quite satisfied to accept that a five-seater was what they wanted because the Bill was being discussed in this House at that time. I am aware also that the Opposition made the best of the story that in fact they would retain two three-seater constituencies there although the shadow Minister for Local Government—when he was Minister—so often had the direct opposite proposed. Therefore, the issue was decided. If Deputy Leonard wants to say it should have been an issue at the by-election— it was an issue. Off platforms in the constituency I stated that it was my proposal to make Monaghan-Cavan a five-seater and our man won the seat. We have got to go by the decision; the National Coalition candidate won the seat.
That is very clear. There is no Labour Party representative there now. That is the question and that is what I want to know. You have provoked this now as the suckers for Fine Gael.
Now, Deputy Ahern—the Minister.
We were talking in Monaghan and nobody went round with bags of guns at the election——
And I have no remorse of conscience about it either and do not let the Minister tell me otherwise. The people of North-East Cork will answer that question so far as he is concerned.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Ahern, please. The Deputy must behave himself.
I served in the Defence Forces as well as he did. But if the Minister comes in here tonight and blackguards me I will not take that from him.
Deputy Ahern, we cannot tolerate this type of conduct. We cannot tolerate it.
Deputy Ahern feels he is being blackguarded because I referred to bags of guns. Perhaps he would explain why he considers that that is being blackguarded.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister without interruption, please.
(Interruptions.)
Fianna Fáil now have lame hawks around the place dragging their wings behind them, threatening all round them. They are not even able to carry the bags of guns. I do not know what they would do with the other things.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Ahern: resume your seat. Resume your seat. We must get back to the Schedule. Let us have no further personalities involved.
I apologise if I have said anything to you that was wrong but the Minister is acting like a little scamp now.
I do not want to ask the Deputy to leave the House. Let us have no more of this. The Minister without interruption.
It is extraordinary, at the heel of the evening, what rambles into this House.
The Minister is not going to get away with that.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please. Amendment No. 2. Let us have no extraneous matters introduced.
Deputy Leonard made a fair case for what he felt was right but he must agree that the decision was made at the by-election. They all knew what was happening. Therefore, the people of Monaghan were satisfied that a five-seater was the proper thing. Deputy Leonard made another comment which I am going to throw back to him. Perhaps it is unfair but he said that driving around Kingscourt it is difficult to know whether one is in Cavan or Monaghan. The Bill will settle that problem. It is true that Cavan and Monaghan are very alike. I know the area very well. I was born and reared beside it and spent my youth all around there. At times I would find it extremely difficult to know which was Cavan and which was Monaghan because the people are the same; the land is the same——
Decent people.
Very decent people. In fact, I was surprised that the Monaghan and Cavan Deputies did not know Enniskeen was——
The Minister must have known when he put it into——
However, we will forgive them that. I put Enniskeen into Louth. But the two Deputies sitting there did not know that there was a place called Enniskeen in their constituency; it is on the border. Now Deputy Molloy would make a present of it, along with Kingscourt and Shercock, to County Monaghan. Deputy Wilson, who has been defending the ancient kingdom of Breffni, is prepared to allow the marauders—as he referred to them— come in from Monaghan and carry it away. The marauders are entitled to carry it away into Monaghan. Obviously Deputy Wilson is interested only in the area on the Meath-Cavan border. Perhaps he feels he should look after that end of it and to hell with County Cavan, east Cavan; it does not matter where they go. If Monaghan wants them they can have them; he does not want them anyway.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
I am only repeating what Deputy Wilson said to me a few minutes ago. Deputy Wilson said he wanted the ancient kingdom of Breffni—and he went up as far as Oldcastle and a little beyond it. I pointed out that Deputy Molloy was taking a big swipe of the ancient kingdom of Meath as well and he was going up one side of Navan nearly to Athboy. What he was doing that for beats me. He probably did not know the area but I think the people of that area would not be prepared to accept that they should go into County Cavan.
He was not going up as far as Cavan.
Does Deputy Leonard know Kellstown? If you go into Kellstown and out by the Gaelic park for about three miles, there is a village called Fordstown and, a short distance from that village there is a place called Girley. That village, including the church, was to be in Deputy Molloy's Cavan constituency. Go on towards Athboy, a few miles farther on to a place called Grennanstown. By some peculiar stretching according to Deputy Molloy, it also was going into the Cavan constituency.
Deputy Leonard is well aware of the pincer movement around Monaghan. Monaghan is situated in an area almost surrounded by Northern Ireland. He is aware of this. Deputy Molloy was doing the same with Kells. He was making one arm of the pincer Cavan and the other arm Monaghan. But he was going even further up; he was going through Castletown and on up to Rathkenny. Then he was going back across the Gibstown Gaeltacht to Donaghpatrick. Obviously nobody briefed him on it. I am sure there was somebody in his party who knew a little about County Meath and who would have been able to tell him that the proposals he was making were too ridiculous for words. They were almost as ridiculous as those he had before he left office when he was putting a narrow strip across the centre with the town of Ardee and a little bit of Drogheda, along the Boyne. He was making a constituency out of that. But, in this particular case he had a new idea. He put this strip up along until he came very close to Kells, on up within a short distance of Athboy. Somebody who knew the area looking at it would realise how absolutely foolish it was. Then he came up the other side, went across by Kells, and then on up until he reached almost to Slane. I do not know what the dickens was his idea but it seems he went a little bit screwy. Perhaps he just counted how many there were in that area, then jotted it down and put the whole total together and, if it made what he thought was a constituency, all right—that filled it in.
Could there be any other explanation for what he did because it is not the action of a reasonable man? When he came to deal with the Louth constituency he agreed with me that that constituency was entitled to four seats but having done so he decided he would take away the arrangements I had made for a small portion of Monaghan, 1,644 people to be added to it and he would, instead, take in the electoral division of St. Mary's. He must have had local advice on this because he went along the Boyne, turned right and went half way to Balbriggan in a narrow strip along the sea. When he passed the village where I live he cut into the sea and then decided that little bit would be added on to Louth. If he was on this side of the House and he did that he would be handing me a nice little constituency. Louth, though small, has a couple of large towns in it and with such a big population it would be a very handy constituency. It is one of those which would be entitled to four seats.
Are there any Labour votes there?
Order, please. The Minister without interruption.
If I went into it there would be very many Labour votes. As a matter of fact, Deputy Leonard might be surprised if I went into Monaghan at all the votes which he gets from working people that might come to me instead.
They would stop with the working man.
I do not think they would stop with Deputy Leonard.
(Interruptions.)
Back to the amendment, please.
(Interruptions.)
Could we get back to the amendment please? The Deputies seem to be indulging in personalities now.
Fianna Fáil did not get the votes. They would not have said no to them if they got them. As far as Meath is concerned, it comprises the administrative county of Meath except the parts thereof which are comprised in the constituencies of Cavan, Monaghan and Louth. Deputy Molloy, having cried here with the rest of his party about my dividing Leitrim into two parts—they said it was a shocking thing—now comes along and attempts to divide Meath by taking portion of Monaghan, Cavan and Louth, to add to Meath, thus dividing it four ways. He considers this would be a reasonable suggestion to make. He then wants to bring in the district electoral divisions of Cloncurry, Donadea, Kilcock, Ballynadrumny, Cadamstown, Carbury, Carrick, Drehid, Dunfierth, Kilrainy, Windmill Cross, Kilpatrick, Timahoe North, Timahoe South, Balraheen and Maynooth and adds in, from the administrative county of Dublin, Balscadden. I do not know why he picked on that little village. If he wanted to do it another way he could have taken the nearest point to Meath and, without taking the big bit off Kildare, he could have taken Balbriggan off. Deputy Burke would have something to say to him if he took Balbriggan off. Deputy Molloy had prepared for him amendments which he introduced here. I was critical of the first set of amendments but they were great when compared with the amendments in the second group.
Will the Minister accept the first ones?
We voted on them and they are gone.
We voted on one of them.
We will vote on each of the remainder, if Deputy Molloy wants to challenge them as they come along, and we will win each of them. It will give me great pleasure to show how each of them will be carried in this House. The amendments in the first group were ridiculous but the amendments now before the House are even more ridiculous. I am sorry for Deputy Molloy.
I am not looking for the Minister's sympathy.
The Deputy is not looking for my sympathy but I am giving it to him. Seán Dunne, Lord rest him, said it is one of these rare things that is very little use to anybody so on that basis I give the Deputy my sympathy. Deputy Molloy had this proposal and he said he spent as many hours preparing it—I think I am quoting him correctly—as we had spent discussing the Bill in the House. He said he spent almost 40 hours preparing the amendments. He must have put a lot of work into them if that is so. We now have the result. If that is the best the combined brains and ability of Fianna Fáil can produce, I am sorry for them.
I was talking about a community.
Deputy Wilson has reminded me of something. He spoke about the community of Cavan and said as far as Cavan were concerned they were a good, tight-knit community and they were proud of being Cavanmen. The next moment he galloped across Meath and tried to bring in a large portion of that county with the Cavan people. He then went back to east Cavan and kicked Kingscourt, Shercock and Enniskeen out of it.
On a point of order, I would like to ask the Chair if the Minister is in order in continuously repeating himself. I would like to bring to your notice that the Minister seems to be filibustering.
The Chair will decide these matters.
The Minister repeated himself on at least three occasions.
The Chair will not hesitate to intervene if he observes conduct of the kind referred to.
If Deputy Molloy feels I am wasting his time and withdraws his stupid amendments I will hand over to him.
I stated earlier on that I wanted to get this table on the record of the House for each constituency. As we are now dealing with the areas of Cavan, Louth, Meath and Monaghan, I would like these figures to be recorded in a similar fashion to the manner in which the table is presented in the Minister's explanatory memorandum which was circulated with the Bill.
The figures for these constituencies are as follows:
|
Proposed Constituency |
Population (1971) |
Number of Members |
Population per Member |
Deviation from national average population per Member (20, 123) |
|
Cavan |
57,625 |
3 |
19,208 |
—195 |
|
Louth |
77,152 |
4 |
19,288 |
—835 |
|
Meath |
63,108 |
3 |
21,036 |
+913 |
|
Monaghan |
57,781 |
3 |
19,260 |
—863 |
The Minister on a number of occasions referred to proposals, which he claimed I had as Minister, for the revision of these constituencies. I wish again to put it on the record of this House that that statement is completely untrue. There were no such proposals before the Minister, prepared in the Department. There was nothing drafted in relation to legislation to revise the constituencies. I submit for the Minister to repeat that allegation not once or twice but on several occasions is——
I am repeating it again. There were four attempts by the Deputy when he was Minister to redraw the constituencies.
The Minister's statement is completely incorrect.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.