asked the Minister for Local Government the steps he has taken to lower the cost of houses since 14th March, 1974.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Costs and Statistics.
23.
In local authority housing continuing increases in the cost of materials and labour preclude effective general action to lower the cost of houses without reducing standards. Unlike my predecessor in office, I am not prepared to lower standards. Indeed, I have had to take steps to terminate the skimping of materials, labour, and amenity provisions which were introduced into local authority housing by the former so called low-cost housing project. This skimping, while apparently achieving some capital cost saving at the initial stage, will cost more money eventually through the cost of rectifying defects and providing for greatly increased maintenance charges.
I have, of course, maintained the normal controls of tender prices for schemes. I have sought, too, to increase the element of competition for schemes by doing away with the so called "package deal" approach, exemplified by the former low cost housing project. The issue by me of a wide range of generic plans, based on a metric module, should help the rationalisation of components and so increase productivity, An Foras Forbartha are continuing their general activities towards this end. They have also carried out a special study for me of the possibility of using more indigenous materials in housing construction.
In so far as private housing is concerned, while I have no function in relation to the control of costs, I have used my powers under section 35 of the Housing Act, 1966, to ensure that grant-type houses will represent reasonable value for their cost prices.
Does the Minister remember in the 14-point plan his party and Fine Gael promised the people that if elected to Government they would take steps to lower the cost of houses? Is he aware that the average price of a house in 1972-73, for which loans were issued from all agencies, was £6,613 and the average price of houses for which loans were issued from all agencies for 1973-74, the year in which the Minister has been in office, was £8,025? Is the Minister aware, subtracting one of these figures from the other, that there has been an increase of £1,412 in the average price of houses for which loans were advanced by all agencies in the 12-month period in which he and his colleagues promised that, if elected to office, they would take steps to lower the cost of houses? Will the Minister hang his head in shame at the increase in the price of houses?
For sheer audacity in this House I think Deputy Molloy takes the cake today by standing up to try to defend the type of houses which he had a part in building. The local authority houses, in particular, with which I have had more trouble, the ones that were being completed and were completed before this——
I am referring to private houses.
Order, please.
The question referred to houses and the Deputy will have this hanging round his neck whether he likes it or not. The facts are that Deputy Molloy was responsible for giving authority to build the worst type designed houses at the lowest cost, by skimping material and skimping workmanship to the extent that now it is almost costing us as much to repair schemes which were already completed. If he claims he knows nothing about them let him go to Corrib Park beside where he lives and see what happened when the roofs were blown off because of his skimpy low cost housing schemes. I suggest to Deputy Molloy that before he starts talking in this House about lowering the cost of houses he should check up on what was being done when he had the right to have a decent type of house built for people in this country but because they were only working-class people they did not count. Anything at all was good enough for them under Deputy Molloy.
That is a lot of rubbish.
It was a lot of rubbish under the Deputy.
Is the Minister saying that the only houses affected by storms in the early part of this year were the houses he referred to? Would he not agree there were hundreds of houses that had roofs stripped during the storm, especially if they were in open areas? Would the Minister agree that he sent me a report stating that the quality, workmanship and standard of work in these houses was first class and according to the schedule of work laid out?
It was according to what was agreed to by Deputy Molloy.
It was according to the specifications laid down by the manufacturer at the time.
Let us not engage in argument at Question Time.
They were in accordance with the regulations laid down.
They were not in accordance with the conditions laid down by the manufacturer at the time. As a matter of fact quite the contrary is the case. The Government at the time agreed they would save nails. They agreed they would save a couple of pounds in nails by putting in one per three instead of one per two. The result is the roofs were stripped. Indeed, in Navan, in my own constituency, chimneys were blown off under Deputy Molloy's so called low cost schemes. Anything was good enough for them as long as they were put under some kind of shelter. It is coming back on to him now.
It is not even worthy of the Minister to make that statement.
Question No. 24.
Will the Minister tell us——
Deputy Dowling, allow us to make some progress.
The Minister seems to have some statistics in relation to the number of roofs that were blown off. Could he tell us the number of roofs that were blown off throughout the country? He appears to have information about them in connection with Navan and Galway. Could he tell us how many roofs were blown off in Dublin?
That is a separate question.
I have a particular interest in Navan and Galway.
So, there is selective material brought in here to create an argument.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
Question No. 24. Deputy Molloy, I have given you a lot of latitude. I have called the next question.
24.
asked the Minister for Local Government the number of dwellings for which grants were allocated by his Department in the periods January to March in 1973 and 1974.
The numbers were 10,626 and 4,020, respectively.
Is the Minister concerned at this substantial drop of 6,606, in the number of starts made between the end of the March quarter 1973 and the end of the March quarter 1974? Is the Minister not concerned at this major turn about in the number of starts, in the pouring of foundations and the allocation of grants for houses? Does it not indicate a depressing future for the house-building industry?
No, indeed. Either Deputy Molloy does not go to the trouble of checking on facts and figures or he is trying to bluff his way through as he did for quite some time. The figure of 10,626 for the March, 1973, quarter was influenced by the efforts of builders to have grants authorised before the introduction of price control for private, grant-aided houses. Deputy Molloy must know this, the big rush that was on.
That would not affect 10 per cent of them.
A form of control of new house prices was introduced on 1st February and applied to new houses being provided for sale in schemes of four or more houses.
The Minister has an excuse.
Question No. 25.
Would the Chair allow me to finish this because it is pretty good? Houses for which grants were allocated prior to the 1st February, 1973, were exempt from control provided they were commenced before 1st May, 1973. The number of grants in April, 1974, was 1,585, which is well above the average monthly allocation of 1,206 in 1973-74 and it is also higher than the average monthly figure for the nine months previous to the quarter ended 31st March, 1973. The total for the nine months from the 1st April to 31st December, 1972, was only 13,797, an average of 4,599. In the March, 1972 quarter, the previous quarter, the figure was 3,435. So either Deputy Molloy does not understand why this happened or he must have encouraged this sort of thing to happen because it would suit in a certain way.
Arising out of the Minister's game of bingo, may I ask him to state whether he is concerned at the overall drop? Forget about the little periods he has picked; let us deal with the full picture. Is he not concerned that there has been an overall drop of 8,000 in the number of starts registered in 1973-74 as against 1972-73. The figure for the last quarter which the Minister has now given me——
The Deputy is seeking to debate these matters and this cannot be tolerated at Question Time.
The Minister was allowed to make a very long speech.
The Chair has no control over Ministers' replies.
When you told him to shut up he only started talking. You cannot carry on that way, a Cheann Comhairle. There must be some justice.
Supplementary questions must be brief.
Is the Minister concerned that the number of starts which he has quoted for the last quarter, ending March, 1974, of 4,020 is smaller than that registered as far back as 1970-71 when in the first quarter there were 4,300? These figures should be increasing.
I gave the Deputy the figures for March, 1972, which was 3,435. As he knows that is 800 fewer than the figure of 4,020. There is an increase of 800 in that quarter and the Deputy should know that the figures are up. He has a question later on about the publication of statistics and if he goes to the trouble of reading them—it will take some time—he will realise that the building programme is going very much better than it was when he left office.
You should ask the building workers.
The Deputy would not know a building worker if he saw one.
I have plenty of them——
May I ask for the co-operation of Deputies?
May I quote from——
The Deputy may not quote at Question Time. I am asking for the co-operation of Members from both sides of the House. We cannot continue this argument any longer. Question No. 25, please.
25.
asked the Minister for Local Government the average cost of all new local authority houses in 1972-73 and 1973-74.
This information is not and never has been available in my Department. Because of the wide variety in the type of dwelling, the size, form of construction and location of local authority houses, a figure for the average cost of all new local authority houses would be meaningless. The average tender price accepted by local authorities for a typical three bedroom house in 1972-73 was £3,400. With regard to 1973-74, my Department are awaiting the submission of statistical returns from a number of areas.
26.
asked the Minister for Local Government the average rent of all local authority houses in 1972-73 and 1973-74.
The average weekly rent (exclusive of rates) of all local authority dwellings in 1972-73 is estimated at £1.61. An estimate for 1973-74 is not available.
In respect of the rents this year will the Minister have any regard to the situation existing in regard to Dublin Corporation houses where the tenant is forced to accept a heating system which goes with the house and which obliges him, irrespective of his capacity to pay, to expend from £4 to £5 a week on heating alone?
The Deputy has made a very good point. This is a matter that must be considered generally. I understand there will be a review of heating costs; this has been arranged. There may be a reduction in that regard. I hope there will be. I am attempting to make arrangements for the provision of fireplaces in all those houses, the houses which were built by Deputy Molloy's Government without fireplaces and which have caused a lot of this trouble.
Modern houses with central heating.
Surely the Minister is not contending in respect of the houses being built by the NBA say in Finglas, Tolka Valley, at present, that there is any appreciable difference in structure or attractiveness between those that are being built now and those that were built previously?
While the NBA have received instructions to build to the modern plan, quite a number of houses were on order, particularly the pre-fab type of houses and orders had been given for the production of parts and, unfortunately, there was nothing that I or anybody else could do to upset the plans except to try to modify them as best we could. I agree with Deputy Tunney that some of the houses still being built under the old scheme are as horrible looking as those built over the last three or four years.
27.
asked the Minister for Local Government the average price of new houses for which loans were approved by all agencies in the periods January to March in 1973 and 1974.
The average prices were £6,719 and £8,025 respectively.
Is the Minister concerned about the increase of £1,306 in the average price of new houses in this period?
As I pointed out earlier, there has been a general increase in building costs. I am not trying to cover up the fact that those building costs have applied all over and we are no better or worse than any other country in Europe. If the Deputy has a formula for dealing with it, perhaps he would tell me.
The Minister's implication is all right but I was not the one who gave the promise, as the Minister did——
A question, please, Deputy.
——that steps would be taken——
Does Deputy Molloy not know how to ask a question?
Arrogant Minister again.
Was it included in the 14-point plan that the National Coalition Government would take steps to lower the cost of houses?
We had this before.
Was it included in the 14-point plan that steps would be taken to lower the cost of houses?
If we had not taken over, the cost of houses would probably be another £1,500 up under Fianna Fáil and this is well known by those who are interested. Even Deputy Dowling knows that.
A big donkey laugh for that.
28.
asked the Minister for Local Government the incentives he has provided since 14th March, 1973, to secure the fuller utilisation of existing houses.
As a means of facilitating mobility of home ownership and as a consequence, better utilisation of the housing stock, the Minister for Finance in his 1973 budget, at my request, reduced the rates of stamp duty on existing houses.
I have also established a working party, comprising representatives of Dublin and Cork Corporations, An Foras Forbartha and the relevant sections of my Department, to examine and report on the extent, type and location of overcrowded housing conditions and to recommend measures likely to ensure a reduction in the number of households living in such conditions and to promote better use of the housing stock generally.
I should like to ask the Minister whether it is true that after 14 months in office this promise to secure the fuller utilisation of existing houses which was also contained in the infamous 14-point plan has not been implemented?
I am glad to say that not alone has it been implemented but we are doing very well in these proposals and we hope to have quite a number of houses which were under sentence of death, including some in this city which were being knocked under Deputy Molloy's regime, repaired and have people living in them. I can assure Deputy Molloy that within the next 12 months houses in his own city of Galway will be built.
Would the Minister indicate where these houses are in Dublin?
They are not new ones and, consequently, the Deputy would not be interested in them.
Bluff.
Another hooley at Tara Mines.
29.
asked the Minister for Local Government the total number of guaranteed order programme local authority houses completed in the year 1973-74.
The total number of local authority houses completed in 1973-74 in schemes included in the former guaranteed order—low-cost— housing project was 2,129.
Would the Minister accept that in view of the figures he has given to the House, and in view of the facts in the building industry in the local authority and the private field, that the construction of overall 25,000 houses last year could not possibly have been achieved were it not for the fact that this was well under way during the term of office of the previous Government.
I will admit that I did allow, very reluctantly, the completion of these 2,129 houses although they were very substandard. This State will be paying for repairs to houses, the keys of which have not been turned in the doors, for years to come.
Arising out of the Minister's smear in his reply and his implication against certain contractors in this community and in view of the fact that the Minister himself on certain occasions complimented the contractors who constructed those houses and congratulated the new tenants, would the Minister withdraw that slur on the building industry, on the tradesmen and the workers involved?
I should like to make it very clear that I am not criticising the contractors. They did the best they could with what was given them. They were asked to build very bad cheap houses and that is what they did. Deputy Molloy is as aware of this as he is of anything.
I have listened to the Minister making this accusation time and time again. He is nothing only a smear merchant who is trying to cast a reflection on the standard of workmanship and craftsmanship, on the contractors, local authorities and the members of those authorities, who are involved in improving these houses and in the construction of them. The whole housing programme last year was a completion of Fianna Fáil's work in office. The Minister is standing on his own two feet now——
The Deputy is being disorderly by continuing to make a speech. The Deputy is completely out of order and he must find another opportunity to speak on this matter.
——and the building industry is sinking under him.
I must ask the permission of the House to interrupt Questions at this stage for a statement by the Minister for Justice.