Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Apr 1975

Vol. 279 No. 9

Estimates, 1975. - Vote 44: Defence.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Donegan)

I move

That a sum not exceeding £48,946,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

The Estimate for Defence for the financial year ending on 31st December, 1975, is for a net sum of £48,946,000. It is based on an average strength of 1,211 officers, 146 cadets and 11,000 men. The total provision for the nine months' financial period ended on 31st December, 1974, amounted to £31,490,000, which included a Supplementary Estimate of £3,263,000 and £1,186,000 transferred from the Vote for Remuneration to cover the cost of pay increases under the 1974 national pay agreement, 15th round. The 1974 Estimate was based on an average strength of 1,150 officers, 162 cadets and 10,500 men in the Permanent Defence Force.

I am glad to say that the recruiting campaign for the Permanent Defence Force, which commenced towards the end of 1973 and continued throughout 1974, has been very successful. On the 28th February, 1975, the actual strength stood at 1,235 officers, 153 cadets and 10,515 men—an increase of 646 all ranks in 12 months. But we have plenty of room for more men and a fresh recruiting drive is now starting. I would again exhort all Deputies to encourage suitable young men in their constituencies to join the Army, where they will be doing a worthwhile job of national importance, with pay and conditions which compare very favourably with those obtainable in civilian life.

At over 11,900 the strength of the Permanent Defence Force is at its highest for more than 25 years; indeed, it is much higher than what it was at the outbreak of the second world war when the strength was less than 7,500. A basic concept of the defence organisation is that the Permanent Defence Force should be capable of rapid expansion in the event of an emergency and would be able to absorb and prepare for action the many thousands who would offer their services in time of grave emergency. Voluntary enlistment is the basis on which the Defence Forces are maintained. It has always been so, even during the critical years of the second world war.

The pay provisions in the Estimate amount to £35,936,000. The first and second phases of the 15th round pay increases under the national agreement, 1974, have been applied to the pay of all ranks in the Defence Forces. The "threshold" increase of 10 per cent has also been implemented as from 1st March, 1975, in accord with its application in the public service generally. In addition considerable progress, in line with what has been taking place in the public service, has been made in the matter of equalisation of the pay of single and married personnel.

The special allowances payable for duty on the Border have again been substantially increased and the special payment which was introduced last May in respect of security duties in locations other than the Border area has also been improved. As well as ensuring that service in the Defence Force is reasonably rewarded, I hope that these measures will help in retaining trained men in service and in attracting recruits.

Facilities continue to be provided for a number of non-commissioned officers and privates of the Permanent Defence Force to attend courses leading to the Department of Education day group certificate and leaving certificate examinations. Others have been registered as apprentices for courses in the trades of fitter, motor mechanic, sheet metal worker, bricklayer, painter/decorator and plasterer and are following courses at AnCO centres. Some of these latter are attending full-time off-the-job training courses; others are attending day release courses. In the academic year 1974-75 over 100 men are participating in these educational and training activities.

Because of the demands of the present security situation, Deputies will appreciate that we cannot release as many men as we would wish to attend these courses. However, we shall avail ourselves of every opportunity to raise the general and technical education standards of the men so as to enable them to attain the high standards necessary in a modern army and to find suitable employment when their Army service has ended.

Competitions for the appointment of cadets in the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service were held in 1974 and as a result 87 cadets were appointed. Including intakes from earlier competitions, there is a total of 153 cadets at present. About 100 of these will, it is expected, be commissioned during the present year. The scheme under which Army cadets and young officers who have the necessary qualifications are sent to University College, Galway, is now a well established feature and is continuing satisfactorily. There are currently 110 officers and cadets doing degree courses at the university.

It is some five years now since commissions were last awarded to a group of non-commissioned officers. I am having arrangements made so that a further group of about 20 non-commissioned officers can be commissioned. This will involve special selection procedures and the holding of a potential officers' course lasting about a year. I shall consider very carefully whether it would be practicable to have more frequent intakes of officers from this source.

Over the past five years increasing demands have been made on the Defence Forces. Internal security continues to dominate their activities. In discharge of this duty the Permanent Defence Force has the valuable assistance of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, whose members have responded admirably to the demands made on them for week-end and other forms of part-time service. The First Line Reserve is also helping by having some of its members on full-time service. To all components of the Defence Forces— the Army, the Air Corps and the Naval Service, the Army Nursing Service, the First Line Reserve, the FCA and the Slua Muirí—I again pay tribute for the excellent manner in which they have performed their various duties, which very often are tedious and difficult as well as demanding discipline and motivation of a high order. They have the gratitude and appreciation of the Government and, I feel sure, of the House also.

As Members are aware, internal security is primarily a matter for the Garda Síochána. The current involvement of the Defence Forces on a daily and continuous basis is indicative of the serious nature of the security situation confronting us. Continuous support is given to the Garda at their request and covers a wide field of activity. The combined operations have resulted in a close and harmonious liaison between the Army and the Garda at all levels, built on a common commitment and mutual understanding and co-operation.

A few statistics may help Members to appreciate the extent of the Army's involvement in security duties. During the 12 months ended on 31st December, 1974, over 6,000 military parties were supplied for check-point duties and participated with the Garda Síochána in setting up nearly 16,000 joint Garda/Army check-points. More than 3,000 patrols were sent out into the road network along the Border from the military posts which are being maintained in that area. These patrols have instructions to detain any persons found carrying arms illegally. They are equipped with radio and can be diverted to the scene of a Border incident by radio instructions. During the same period escorts for explosives and blasting operations were provided on upwards of 850 occasions and more than 500 requests for bomb disposal teams were dealt with. Several vital non-military installations are under permanent military guard, while others are protected by military patrols. There are also duties in connection with the custody and escorting of civilian prisoners and the conduct of searches for arms, ammunition and explosives. The list is not exhaustive but these activities are the main ones with which the Defence Forces are concerned in the internal security field. They represent a very considerable demand on the manpower of the Defence Forces.

Every true Irish man and woman will work and pray for an end to the organised violence and the terrible deeds that have plagued this country, North and South, these last years. We dare hope that peace will be restored before long. Until then the Defence Forces will continue to aid the civil power in the maintenance of law and order and in the preservation of the institutions of the State. The Government are determined that the Defence Forces will be adequately supplied and equipped for the task. For law and order are basic and are the first responsibility of government; they are the prerequisites for ordinary, decent, everyday living and for the stability which is so essential for social and economic progress.

In May of last year the Government decided with great regret to withdraw the officers and men of the Irish contingent serving with the United Nations Emergency Force in the Middle East. After long and careful deliberation, following the bomb outrages in Dublin and Monaghan, the Government felt that the exceptional strains imposed on the security forces of the State warranted this step. When conveying the decision to the United Nations the Government intimated that they would be happy, when the present need had passed, to send again an Irish contingent to the Middle East should the United Nations feel this desirable.

Happily, our military participation in UN activities did not end with this withdrawal. Twenty-one Irish officers are at present serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in the Middle East. Six of these officers have been transferred on a temporary basis to the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force which was established in June, 1974, following the agreement on disengagement between the Israeli and Syrian forces. Two officers and four NCOs are serving in staff appointments with the United Nations peace-keeping force in Cyprus. The Irish troops serving with the United Nations continue to maintain the proud record and high reputation built up over the years in difficult and hazardous circumstances.

While on the question of commitments to the United Nations, there are still outstanding claims for the costs of supplying the contingents to the forces in Cyprus and the Middle East. Of claims amounting to £3.75 million presented to the United Nations in respect of the extra costs of the Irish contingents which served in Cyprus, £3.17 million has been recovered, leaving a balance of £0.58 million outstanding. In the case of the Middle East operation, claims in respect of the provision of the Irish contingent are being finalised and it is hoped to present them to the United Nations in the near future. Interim payments totalling some £160,000 have, however, been received from the United Nations in respect of this operation.

The increased level of expenditure on stores and equipment in the past few years is indicative of the Government's determination to strengthen the capability of the Defence Forces. This capability will receive a further boost from the substantial purchases for which provision is made in the present Estimate.

Although the transport fleet still includes a fair proportion of old vehicles, the overall position has steadily improved due to substantial purchases of landrovers and lorries of troop-carrying capacity to meet urgent commitments on escort and patrol duties. Purchases of saloon cars, station wagons, motorcycles and specialised types of vehicles were also made. Further purchases of a variety of vehicles are to be made this year.

Partial provision has been made for the procurement of a second fishery protection vessel on the lines generally of L.E. Deirdre. The plans and specifications are completed and I expect that the process of arranging a contract will be commenced at an early date. I want now to acknowledge the expert assistance given by Irish Shipping in the preparation of plans for the old Deirdre if one may so describe it, and I am glad that assistance will also be available in the future. I am glad to say that L.E. Deirdre which has been in service for two-and-a-half years and the three coastal minesweepers for almost four years have all proved very satisfactory.

Last year a contract was placed for six jet trainer aircraft as replacements for the Vampires which are at the end of their useful life. These new aircraft, which will also have an operational capability, are expected to be delivered in the first half of this year. After delivery the aircraft will be equipped with an up-to-date avionics system which will be supplied and installed by Aer Lingus.

A modernisation programme to update the air traffic control facilities at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, is also to be initiated this year.

The helicopter service, which has been providing rescue, ambulance and other services for over ten years, now consists of eight Alouette III helicopters. Members, I am sure, are aware of the very fine and worthwhile service the Air Corps is providing to the community by this means, apart altogether from its important security role.

In search and rescue alone, the helicopters flew 36 missions last year and were directly responsible for the saving of 14 lives. On the 22nd October, 1974, I had great pleasure in presenting to three brave young men at Baldonnel the Distinguished Service Medal, which I had awarded them on the recommendation of the military authorities. This was in recognition of a daring mission they performed on 5th August, 1972, when, as the crew of an Air Corps helicopter, they effected, under very adverse weather conditions, the rescue of a boy trapped on a ledge on the waterfall face at Powerscourt, County Wicklow.

The number of helicopter ambulance missions flown in 1974 was 75. These consisted, in the main, of the transporting of critically ill patients from all over the country to specialist medical hospitals in Dublin.

On six different occasions during 1974 the Air Corps performed mercy missions to islands off the western seaboard, making a total of 37 round trips. These missions usually involved the transporting of essential supplies when inclement weather prevented the normal boat service. Often on these occasions there are stranded people to be transported also.

The Estimate includes a provision of £2 million approximately for the continuation of the Army building programme. As in the previous financial period, priority is being given to requirements in Border areas. The construction of a new billet block for 105 troops at Dundalk Military Barracks has been commenced and this building should be available by December next. The planning of further improvements at this location is proceeding.

Tenders for the erection of a new barracks at Monaghan, a major work, have been invited and I expect that a contract will be placed about July next. A number of lesser works at other Border locations were completed during the past year.

Elsewhere, the programme of building works designed to improve accommodation for the Defence Forces is continuing. Among the larger works completed in 1974 were new premises for cadets and young officers attending University College, Galway, a 20-house scheme for married soldiers in Athlone, and new billet accommodation for apprentices at the Army Apprentice School, Naas. Work on the erection of a new dining-hall and cookhouse at Columb Barracks, Mullingar, is well advanced and a new FCA headquarters building at Navan has been completed. Arrangements for the provision of a similar building at Westport are in the final stages.

The current provision will allow the present high level of activity on Army building works to be maintained. Miscellaneous works designed to improve living conditions within the Army are provided for and there is provision for the commencement of a further scheme of 50 houses for married soldiers at the Curragh Training Camp. The planning of this scheme is at an advanced stage.

The programme for refurbishing the Equitation School was continued in 1974 and 15 horses were purchased at a total cost of £157,247. Provision of £60,000 has been made for further purchases of horses in 1975.

During 1974, Army riders and horses participated in international horse shows at Dublin, Wiesbaden, Lucerne, Hickstead, Wembley, Rotterdam, Washington, New York and Toronto and won 28 prizes including four major first prizes at these shows. One Army rider and horse competed in the World Three-Day Event Championship at Burghley and finished fifth overall. In addition, 35 horse shows and gymkhanas in Ireland were attended. The total prize money won in 1974 was £5,376. Prize money in show jumping is much more significant than the actual amount. The successes which carried the £5,376 in prizes were major ones. It is proposed that riders and horses of the school will participate in International Shows again this year including those to be held at Geneva, Rome, Aachen and Dublin.

It is a cause of regret for me that Ireland will not now have the opportunity to sponsor the Equestrian Event of the International Military Sports Council this year. We had looked forward to the event and had done a good deal of groundwork but only three other member nations were prepared to participate, and under the rules of the council the event cannot be held unless a minimum of six nations are participating.

In regard to sail training, the Asgard has regrettably, but definitely, reached the end of her sailing days. Tenders have been invited for the construction of a replacement vessel which the Government have decided will be named Brendan. I am hopeful that the new vessel will be sailing in 1976. To enable sail training to be carried on during the waiting period, I arranged recently for the purchase of a secondhand yacht which has been renamed Creidne. It is approximately the size of Asgard and while it is an excellent yacht and in very good condition, it has not anything like the accommodation planned for Brendan. One way or the other it is our objective to participate in the transatlantic race of the Sail Training Association next year. The Creidne is capable of crossing the Atlantic and being with the sail training ships of the other countries in New York harbour in 1976. I believe that sail training is a very worthwhile pursuit and under the excellent committee that controls it, the facility will be used to the best advantage.

Subhead G of the Estimate, which relates to Civil Defence, provides for a nett expenditure of £335,000, the greater portion of which represents the amount involved in the payment of grants to local authorities at the level of 70 per cent of their outlay on Civil Defence functional administration, on the training of Civil Defence volunteers and on the storage and maintenance of civil defence equipment. I am grateful to the officers of local authorities and regional health boards for the part they play in the promotion of civil defence in their areas. Strengths have been well maintained; training both at local level and at the Civil Defence school in Dublin has continued satisfactorily and I have been most impressed by the dedication and commitment of the volunteer personnel whom I have met during my visits to local centres and to the school.

Provision is included in the subhead for the purchase of new personnel and equipment vehicles, ambulances and mobile fire appliances, which will be issued to local authorities, and for the acquisition of communications equipment, radiac instruments and so on. Delivery has already commenced of the new Civil Defence uniform and the present Estimate includes provision for further deliveries during 1975. I know that this will be welcomed by those who have commented on certain unsatisfactory features of the old uniforms.

Deputies will be aware of the magnificent response which was forthcoming from the Civil Defence services on the occasion of the tragic bomb incidents of 17th May, 1974, in Dublin and Monaghan. But there have been many other times when Civil Defence volunteers assisted, or stood ready to help out, in lesser bomb incidents or bomb scares, fires or floods, in circumstances which attracted little or no publicity. I cannot praise too highly the devotion of these men and women which is so manifest not only on the occasions which I have mentioned but in all the unspectacular work of training and routine duties throughout the year. So that the most effective application can be achieved of this meritorious service to the community, my Department in collaboration with the Department of Health, have sought to promote the maximum co-ordination of Civil Defence with the hospital, medical and ambulance services of the regional health boards, with the other local authority services, with the Garda Síochána and with the voluntary aid societies. This co-ordination extends to the implementation of the disaster plans formulated in each region to cope with emergencies no matter how arising.

I have pleasure in again paying tribute to the Irish Red Cross Society, the Order of Malta and the St. John Ambulance Brigade for the co-operation which exists between their units and the Civil Defence services.

It is my hope that the sterling example of community service which has been set by the volunteers serving in the Civil Defence organisation will be an inspiration to others to join their ranks and an incentive to them to play their part, too, in this praiseworthy work.

Perhaps I might add a brief comment on subhead BB of the Estimate in which provision is made for a grant-in-aid to the Irish Red Cross Society. Included here is an allocation for emergency relief and during 1974 sums amounting to £6,000 were made available to the society to enable them to contribute to the relief of distress in Cyprus.

That concludes my general review of the Estimate for Defence. Before I leave the subject there are a few particular matters I should like to refer to.

One of the major recent incidents involving troops was the attempted escape last month from Portlaoise Prison, which ended tragically for one of the prisoners. The Minister for Justice gave the House an account of the incident at the time. I do not wish to add to that except to say that all the information available to me leads me to believe that the military guards acted with promptitude and restraint, and with proper regard for human life. Since the in-quest has not yet been held, I do not think it would be appropriate for me to say more at this stage.

Another matter I wish to mention is the projected evacuation of Cathal Brugha Barracks and its replacement by a new barracks to be built outside Dublin. This is an undertaking of great magnitude and importance. It is not simply a question of moving a given body of troops with their impedimenta to new buildings at another location. Some of the units and installations in Cathal Brugha Barracks will be redistributed among other Dublin barracks, and this alone will require considerable preparatory work. Griffith Barracks figures in the scheme and we hope to have the full use of that barracks fairly soon, but major building works will be necessary there before it will be suitable for full-time military occupation.

So as to make the best use of all remaining barrack accommodation in the Dublin area and to keep new building to the minimum, a series of complex moves and adjustments will be necessary. These are now in the process of being worked out. The cost of the full project will run to some millions of £s but the stage has not yet been reached where a comprehensive estimate can be made. The actual execution of the work is likely to be spread over a number of years.

I turn now to the Army Pensions Estimate which is also before the House. This is for a net sum of £10,337,000 for the year ending the 31st December, 1975.

The net figure for the nine months ended 31st December 1974, was £6,604,000, that is, the sum of £6,420,000 shown in the Book of Estimates, plus £184,000 transferred from the Vote for Remuneration to enable payment of the increased pensions and allowances to be made from the 1st July, 1974.

Included in the £10,337,000 is a sum of £1,194,000 to cover the increases in the pensions and allowances which will become payable from the 1st July, 1975, in accordance with the principle of maintaining parity in public service pensions.

The other increases arise mainly from: (a) the additional numbers qualifying for allowances under subhead C—allowances and gratuities to dependants; (b) increased provision for pensions and gratuities under subhead E for retired members of the Permanent Defence Force; and (c) increased cost of the concessions for veterans of the War of Independence under subhead M.

In subhead C there are 4,400 widows of military service pensioners in receipt of allowances equal to one-half of their deceased husband's pension at current rates and subject to a minimum amount of £87.84 a year. The average rate of allowance payable is £132.00 a year.

The number of special allowances payable under subhead H continues to show a downward trend, reflecting the excess of deaths over new awards. At present there are more than 10,000 allowances being paid and the average allowance works out at £194 a year.

In subhead M the cost of the scheme for free travel, electricity and television licences shows an increase of £76,000 compared with last year. This is due to increased costs.

I am happy to announce that arrangements are in the process of being completed which will enable certain categories of veterans of the War of Independence to attend an outpatients' clinic at St. Bricin's Hospital, Dublin. This has long been sought. The particular categories are:

(a) persons who were awarded military service pensions under the Military Service Pensions Acts, 1924 and 1934,

(b) persons who were awarded disablement pensions under the Army Pensions Acts in respect of a wound or disease related to military service in the period which commenced on the 23rd April, 1916, and ended on the 30th September, 1924.

The services to be provided at the clinic are mainly such as would be available in a general medical practitioner's surgery, but consultant services covering ophthalmology and ear, nose and throat will also be available. Minor surgery only, not involving retention in hospital, may be carried out at the clinic. Cases requiring major surgery could not be dealt with at St. Bricin's Hospital, but advice would be given. Drugs and medicines, as prescribed at the clinic, would be supplied from the hospital pharmacy. This clinic will not be a substitute for the ordinary health services but rather as a facility to be availed of for the casual medical needs of veterans of the categories mentioned. The extent to which the resources of St. Bricin's Hospital can be made available for the clinic is limited. It would be in everybody's interest, therefore, that the facility should be used only when necessary. Details of the scheme will be conveyed to the eligible persons as soon as possible.

I commend both Estimates to the favourable consideration of the House. If Deputies require more information on any points, I shall be glad to give it when replying to the debate.

Mr. Dowling

First, I should like to express my appreciation to the Minister, the secretary of his Department, his private secretary and members of his staff, who have been most courteous and helpful in assisting me to deal with the many problems I have confronted them with since I became Opposition spokesman. I appreciate this co-operation and I will respond with the same co-operation when required of me from time to time. Recognising the importance of the Estimate and the security factors that may be mentioned in the course of debates I feel I can freely discuss with the Minister and his staff in a comprehensive way any matter in relation to the Defence Forces. I may refer to the civil service at a later stage in my contribution and I would not like the secretary of the Department, or the Minister's private secretary, to feel that this is personally directed against them. I will be referring to this colossal machine called the civil service but I will not be reflecting on the people concerned in the Minister's Department. I should also like to express my appreciation of the manner in which I was received at the Army barracks in Cork, Athlone and Galway. I am grateful to the Army officers who brought me on an extensive tour of the areas. These tours were comprehensive and proved instructive. At no time did I feel I was being diverted or led into a deadend. These officers were frank with me and because of that I accumulated a wealth of information and brought myself up-to-date on the many problems that confront the Defence Forces.

In general there is agreement on the Department of Defence's Estimate. There has always been a constructive debate on this Estimate and a problem that has confronted the Minister and his Department is that so few Members have contributed to this important debate. Like the Minister I should like to pay tribute to the members of the Permanent Defence Forces, first and secondline reserves, members of the Civil Defence, the Naval Service and the Air Corps. From my point of view the Estimate was introduced about two months too soon because I was engaged in a comprehensive examination of this sector with the assistance of my colleagues. I hoped I would have had the opportunity prior to the introduction of the Estimate of visiting Border posts, some of the Army barracks in Dublin, and the Naval Service and Air Corps bases. However, I recognise the crowded timetable of the Dáil and that business must be disposed of but while I have not carried out a comprehensive examination, with the co-operation I have received I have gone a considerable distance.

Mr. Donegan

The Deputy will be welcome when he decides to make the visits.

Mr. Dowling

No one can find fault with the members of the Defence Forces, particularly those who served overseas. However, I have felt for some time that a comprehensive review of the entire situation in relation to the Army should take place. The evolution of the Army over the years has been haphazard. We have had a variety of pressures due to people seeking extensions of service, and problems following the emergency in relation to appointments, but we have now reached the stage where we must take the lid off and look at the situation in a factual way.

In my view the whole system is outdated. We should now come into line with modern conditions and trends. Where it is necessary to compensate people we should give them a compensation other than an extension of service because that is a more positive way of dealing with the problem. There are many areas where compensation of a type other than an extension of service can be given without people taking up valuable appointments and causing problems with junior officers, NCOs and men in relation to their future. I suggest that the Minister produce a White Paper covering the modernisation of the Army relative to present day conditions and thinking. Questions of organisation, conditions, accommodation, equipment, training, selection, retirement, medical examinations and the strength of the service are factors that must be examined in the light of present day circumstances.

How is the money being spent? I feel the money is not being spent to the best possible advantage for a variety of reasons. What is the mission of the Army? Have the Army a mission or a defined role? If they have a defined role how and when was it defined? Nobody seems to be able to answer that question. Are we still living with the haphazard development that has taken place over the years due to the pressures of the time and the problems involved in the evolution of the State? Once the role of the Army is defined we can look at the situation. Are the Army simply a back-up for the civil power? If that is so is that the end of the line? Are the Army there simply to guard installations or is there a wider mission involved? When we know the mission and role of the Army we can decide what the complement of personnel should be. The statistics given by the Minister in relation to Army strength, while they are factual, can be grossly misleading when related to other armies because of the general age structure within our Defence Forces. To my mind this is an important aspect.

At the top we have the situation where the extensions over a period have led to personnel leaving the service at 60 years of age. This is a matter of serious concern when one takes into consideration the advice given during debates in this House and the call during the recruiting campaigns to people to make the Army a career. If we wish young men to make a career of the Army there must be some positive means of their attaining a promotion within a reasonable number of years. The Army could provide a much better service but it is necessary that a long, hard look be taken at the situation. People are leaving the Army at 60 years of age at present when the old age pension eligibility age will be reduced to 65 in the near future. It is only a step away from the day when men will retire when they reach the old age pension stage. I think that is highly undesirable. Men should be able to leave the service at a reasonable age when they are able to resettle into civilian life and when they will have job opportunities still open to them.

Personnel coming into the services should be able to attain a high rank at a very early age. There should be prospects of promotion not blocked off by continuous upping of the age limits or various extensions. This phasing out must be effected over a number of years and dealt with on a more realistic basis. When we look at television and see other armies with battalion commanders at the age of 35 and 40 holding the rank of lieutenant-colonel, we are reminded that here such a man would be in his declining years before he could attain any such post or, indeed, receive any promotion of a substantial nature.

This must be investigated in a very realistic manner. Over a period of years we must try to modernise so that we can present to young men outside the service an opportunity of entering and attaining promotion to senior ranks at an early age when such people are in the prime of their lives. We know on the industrial front that many people who have achieved success do so in the 35 to 40 age bracket. The people to whom we entrust industrial development are all young men with initiative and energy able to cope with the situation. I do not in any way want to take from the wonderful work, courage and understanding of people of a senior age who have done a remarkable job. I think the reason many such people did not leave the service was that no provision was made for job opportunities for them, no alternative avenues into which they could be channelled or no effort made to channel them into other services, State, or semi-State, or, indeed, certain sections of the civil service. They are men who have served the nation with a high degree of discipline and understanding and whose loyalty cannot be doubted. They could best continue to serve the nation in another capacity by being channelled into alternative occupations. But we must have a plan and the right people for the job. People at the appropriate age limit should be placed in an atmosphere in which they can do their job to the best of their ability.

There is a complete rethink necessary in relation to our overseas service, drawing from experience gained and the everchanging conditions obtaining. Accordingly, we must update our position. A basic factor of that reconsideration must be the age limits of officers, NCOs and men. I have merely mentioned some of the problems that tend to keep men in the Army sometimes against their will, particularly single officers, single NCOs who do not receive gratuities hoping that the day will come when the Minister or somebody will make a decision affording them the same opportunities as their married counterparts. I do not blame the Minister. Many Ministers have in the past been subject to a variety of pressures and there will be pressures in the future because of service overseas. While we must acknowledge such service and have suitable compensation made to these people, we have reached the stage when we must ensure that we have a young Army in which every man will be physically fit, ready to go into combat at the drop of a hat. That is not the situation at present. While the Minister has given figures, if we subtract the people in the higher age limit and also the 110 junior officers sucked out of the service, we are left with, indeed, a very depleted service. Both factors of the situation must be looked at in a very realistic way. I hope we will be able to phase out over a period quite an amount of the older personnel and that realism will be brought to bear on Army thinking in relation to present day structures, efficiency and requirements of personnel. The opportunities that do not exist at present should then be afforded such personnel. If people have to wait until they are at an advanced age for promotion, that, too, must stifle initiative and reduce incentive to make the Army one's career. The present watching and waiting is not good enough and more positive action must be taken.

There are problems and there always will be but I am quite positive solutions exist some of which I shall outline as I progress. Extensions of service beyond an age when personnel can be considered fit, if they do take place should be effected surplus to the establishment. If they are not surplus to the establishment, they should be effected by way of paid leave. We have the two year and the 120-day extensions which, while facilitating the obtaining of aditional increments, can at the other end of the scale, deprive a man of promotion. The Minister must take a very positive stand on the question of the blocking-off of promotions at present. I understand that the giant civil service machine about which I spoke earlier has certain views in relation to the retention of personnel, that a man must be retained in a particular post. But if we want to compensate a man for service rendered to the nation—and rightly so—if we want to give him an additional increment, there is no reason why he should not be surplus to the establishment or that he cannot be channelled into some other avenue, retaining him either on paid leave or in another capacity. I shall deal with that aspect when speaking of the FCA where I feel other avenues exist and, indeed, in the Department in Coláiste Chaoimhín and other places. The people there may not like the views I have to express but, nevertheless, that is how I feel. People entitled to promotion should receive it at the appropriate time. I am sure the Minister feels sympathetic to people who have given long, devoted service to the nation, that they should not be the victims of somebody else's extension of service. The Minister should not tolerate a man being deprived of promotion for an hour longer than necessary. Such promotion blockages which are well known particularly in the senior ranks must receive attention. Irrespective of what regulations there may be in existence at present, justice demands that people who have given loyal service must not be discriminated against at somebody else's expense. I should like to ensure that where incremental advantage can be obtained by a short extension of service, the benefit of the doubt be given to such people. There must be a way round it.

As a result of reduction of the age limit, in the restructuring necessary to be effected, the question of resettlement and job opportunities plays a very vital part. Job opportunities in local authorities, in State and semi-State concerns and so on must be provided so that men can continue to play a vital part without being a loss to the nation generally. These are matters that can be easily examined.

That is in relation to officers. There is a special problem in relation to NCOs and men that I will deal with in greater depth and detail in regard to the resettlement of ex-servicemen. Having dispensed with officers of an age when they are not fully fit for active combat or capable of sustaining long hours under pressure, at the other end of the scale a considerable number of personnel should be retired and should be paid adequate compensation for the service they have given. They should not have to hang on in order to get that compensation. They are entitled to it as of right and the money should be provided. It may mean more money diverted to pensions from some other purpose. With revamping of the Army and realistic structuring a substantial saving could be effected which could be devoted to this purpose, thus avoiding further cost to the State.

The educational scheme at Galway University is a very fine scheme indeed. If I were a cadet and this type of scheme were available to me I would be only too happy to accept. There is reference in the report of the Public Accounts Committee to the effect that following consideration of the recommendation of the Commission on Higher Education the training of military cadets should be associated with university studies it was decided that suitably qualified cadets should be given the opportunity of pursuing courses.

There should be educational opportunities for officers, NCOs and men, every member of the Defence Forces. No section of the Defence Forces is entitled to special consideration over another. Equal opportunity should be available to all. The day we depart from that principle and give special consideration to selected groups is the day that dissension and other difficulties arise. The Minister and the Department must take a long hard look at the scheme at present in operation. I am not so sure that it is in the best interest of the officers, of the Army or of the nation. Admittedly, educational opportunities must be provided but there are other ways of doing it. Every officer who has served his full term should have an academic degree on leaving the Army and this should be provided without disruption of service so that the fact that men are pursuing educational activities does not mean that they are completely lost to the Army but are available to the Army for periods. A block release system might be better.

The programme pursued at Galway University is a very excellent one. In my view this matter of providing educational facilities for Army personnel is not a matter for the Department of Defence. While that is the position it means that 110 or 120 young officers are taken out of active service at a time when the nation can ill afford to lose them. It affects the basic structure of the Army. It disrupts the availability of junior officers for service as platoon commanders, as FCA officers and for other functions.

The most important period in the life of an officer is the first two years after he leaves military college. It is then that he has to take responsibility for the first time. The situation now is that these young officers who come out of university with a degree are possibly, better equipped academically but from the military point of view there is a disruption of service. Junior officers who do not avail of the educational opportunities provided have to perform double duty. This matter should be reviewed. I do not want to see fewer opportunities provided. I want to see expanded opportunities provided but they should be provided in a more realistic way. The scheme now in existence was launched at the suggestion of the Commission on Higher Education. The military aspect should have been considered. The system now in operation means that a young officer is cut off from military training during the period he spends in university and greater strain is imposed on battalion commanders in supplying young officers for Border patrol and so on. This is a serious matter which should be examined from time to time in the light of experience.

I do not want to be misinterpreted. Everyone should have an opportunity to attain an academic qualification while serving in the Army. That should be open to all personnel, not selected groups. If disservice is being done as a result of a particular system, the system should be reviewed. Educational opportunities should be provided in such a way as to allow participation in normal military duties.

We are recalling troops from service in the Middle East at a time when there is a reservoir of Army personnel tied up in a situation where they are not gaining military experience. The system should be so designed as not to interfere with the working of any particular section of the Army. There should be a spread and this would avoid problems. The Minister should consult the Army in relation to the problems developing as a result of personnel having to do double duties, with consequent loss of leave and other difficulties.

I would not wish to deny anyone an opportunity of higher education. I want the service expanded but provided in a more realistic manner having regard to the needs of the Army. I have already mentioned that from the military point of view the most important period in a young officer's life is the first two years after he leaves the cadet school.

Every effort must be made to ensure development in our overseas commitments. I am glad the Government and the Minister have indicated to the United Nations that we are willing and anxious to participate if we are required to do so. Overseas service has given us a new insight into present day problems. It has raised morale and strengthened our Defence Forces because of the knowledge they have gained of the equipment that has been procured. Every effort should be made to ensure that continuity is maintained. I personally believe that the withdrawal of the forces was a panic decision and that possibly the situation did not warrant such a drastic measure. Concerned though I am about the internal security of the State, I believe the situation was one we could have contained if there had been a development.

I should like to refer to the overseas allowances to the 25th Group who were transferred from Cyprus to the Middle East. I understand that the allowances granted to members of all other armies who were transferred and who served in that region were in excess of the allowances paid to our Army. I should like the Minister to examine this situation and to see whether we were singled out for any special reason. People who served in the Middle East have indicated to me that this was the case and I accept it. If our people were underpaid for their services the situation must be rectified at the earliest possible moment and the necessary compensation paid to the people concerned. I understand the amount could be recouped from the United Nations.

The 26th Infantry Group were withdrawn from the Middle East before they had served the 90 days which would make them eligible for medals. People who have served overseas are proud of the fact and like to have the medals and ribbons to prove it. Those people were withdrawn before the 90 days were completed at the request of the Government and they believe they should be given something which would indicate that they had served abroad. The Minister should have some recognition given to them.

It would appear from the Minister's brief that all the increases which were granted were paid. I have been told that captains and commandants have not had their increases dating back to April, 1974 paid and that while the Minister has made strenuous efforts to have the money paid, the Department of Finance are holding up payment. If this is so, I hope the Minister will ensure that payment is made at the earliest possible moment.

The question of the FCA will have to be examined in depth. Members of the FCA believe that integration with the Army is just not on. They feel they are neither in nor out, that the regular Army want them on occasions and do not want them on other occasions. Indeed, many members of the regular Army also believe that integration is not on and that the FCA will have to have some type of command structure of their own. In the 15 years since integration the FCA has dropped from 32,000 to approximately 20,000 and it is believed that pre-integration status should be accorded to the FCA. There should be a complete new look at all aspects of the FCA. They have been a forgotten force. They can be a very viable force but they must be organised on a somewhat different basis. The FCA is basically a local defence force but here in Dublin one finds a man from Sallynoggin, a man from Finglas and a man from Ballyfermot all in the same unit. If it were organised on a more local basis people would respond in greater numbers. The question of promotions should be considered and the question of an independent structure. I know there cannot be two armies at the same time in the State. I believe many senior officers could be phased out through the FCA if the structure were altered. With a reduction in the age limit the valuable services of officers and senior NCOs could be availed of, understanding that any alteration in the age limits will have to take place over a prolonged period and that it will not affect the personnel in the upper age limits now serving. The FCA is a very important force but it could be made more effective so that members would feel they belonged to a wanted organisation. The withdrawal of arms from the local FCA arsenals, following the break-ins that took place and the theft of military equipment, has seriously reduced the effectiveness of the FCA. The dry-run situation in which people have no weapons does not attract young men.

The question of handling rifles and equipment is also important. If, in the interests of security, we withdraw weapons from a force which is basically designed to be a security force and perform a holding operation, then we disarm that force at the expense of someone else. It has been indicated to me that subversive organisations have been dictating the training programme and the efficiency of the FCA, because of the withdrawal of equipment which subversive organisations have been tampering with. We must find a remedy for that and the remedy can be very drastic.

We should not impair the efficiency of any force because some group of gun thugs with no authority are stealing equipment. We must be able to protect our equipment. If personnel who are giving a service to the nation as a local defence force in a holding situation are completely disarmed, they are ineffective. This is an unrealistic situation. If men are trained to do a particular job the necessary equipment should be available to them. In the outlying areas you must either bring the men to the rifles or the rifles to the men. This involves a considerable amount of travel in some cases.

I would hope that we would be able to inject into the FCA a new sense of responsibility. We must give them a defined role. I do not think integration with the Regular Defence Force is in the best interests of the FCA. They should have a structure of their own. They should be an organisation well equipped, neatly dressed, and with a high degree of discipline and efficiency. If we lessen their discipline and their capacity to be better soldiers, we are doing a disservice. Whatever measures we have to take to protect them and their equipment must be taken, but not by disarming them. We cannot allow outside forces to dictate where we keep arms and that is what is happening. We have disarmed many sectors of the FCA because some outside group might tamper with their equipment. I fully understand the problems in securing rifles and other equipment. Nevertheless, this is a factor which is causing members of the FCA considerable concern, together with the feeling with being unwanted by the Army. I feel that the Army do not, in fact, want this close tie-up with the FCA.

Possibly the standardisation of uniforms between the regular army and the FCA might mean a saving of money. As the Minister is aware, there is still some criticism of the type of dress worn by the FCA. The Department must take a deeper interest in the problems of personnel who are giving voluntary service to the State in the FCA. There should be more contact between trade unions and employers. It is known that people have been victimised because of their desire to do the longer training period. They found difficulties when they returned to their employment.

I well believe that. I was a victim of circumstances in CIE when I was released from the service. I know the problems and hazards in relation to the trade unions and some of the employers. No credit is due to CIE for the manner in which they handled the situation in relation to volunteers after the Emergency. Rough justice was certainly meted out. There must be a dialogue between trade unions and employers on the question of personnel who wish to engage in training to make themselves more efficient. People should be free to go for short periods of training without their employment being affected.

I heard one word of criticism of the Minister from various sources. I do not know whether this is an isolated case. Promotions are a vital aspect of Army life. If promotion is denied to personnel morale is weakened. I will give this to the Minister for what it is worth. It has been suggested to me that certain promotions have taken place in the FCA. I will just mention one because I understand the Minister is aware of it. An FCA officer who was in Cork since 1947 was due for promotion. He had been acting in the capacity of captain in the summer camps for a period. An officer was sent down from Dublin—the man's name is McGoldrick—and he was promoted in Cork and brought back to Dublin. This is all wrong and it has a serious reaction. It was spoken about not only in Dublin and Cork but in every unit of the FCA where I had contacts. The Minister may be able to explain why this man was promoted. There is a chain reaction in relation to promotions. There is a suggestion throughout the service at the moment that political appointments are taking place. People should be appointed on their ability irrespective of what colour shirts they wear. The best man for the job must get the job.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that it is not desirable that an individual officer should be named.

Mr. Dowling

I was trying to be frank with everybody. Maybe I should not have mentioned his name. The point I want to get across is that even one promotion on a political basis, or out of line with the normal procedure, causes a reaction right through the force. We must have the best men for the jobs at all times. Then there can be no crib, irrespective of what colour shirt or colour hair a man has. There is a belief that political appointments are taking place in certain sections of the Army.

Mr. Donegan

Is the Deputy trying to spread it?

Mr. Dowling

I am merely saying——

Mr. Donegan

I will deal with that promotion and with the Deputy with little trouble.

Mr. Dowling

That is fair enough. I am not trying to discredit anyone.

Mr. Donegan

The Deputy will not discredit me.

Mr. Dowling

I am not trying to discredit the Minister. I am merely indicating that a promotion which is out of line can cause a chain reaction right through the service. I would hope that promotions would be made on a fair basis because that would inspire confidence.

The Naval Service is to some degree the Cinderella of the Defence Forces. This should not be the position. In future the Naval Service will be called on possibly to protect oil rigs, to safeguard against sabotage or interference and so on. Serious consideration will have to be given to the question of protection. The Naval Service will have to be strengthened to meet the developing situation. There will be increased responsibility following on the exploration of the Continental Shelf for oil and gas. I am glad the Minister has taken very positive action in regard to providing new equipment to ensure that personnel can be properly trained. This is very heartening. There was need for a new approach and the Minister is to be applauded for what he has done, is doing and proposes to do. This will pay dividends. Money will, of course, be required. Whether the multinationals will make a contribution towards the provision of ships for protection purposes is another matter.

Most concern at the moment arises in the artillery section of the Army. There is the question of the modernisation of weapons and the updating of equipment generally. Little men in Cambodia in pyjamas are able to cause havoc. From another point of view, they are able to do valuable work because they have the right type of equipment at their disposal. How one is dressed no longer appears to be very important provided one has the right kind of equipment. This is something that must be looked at realistically. I understand the cost factor is very great but we must face our responsibilities and ensure that the best and most modern equipment is at the disposal of our Defence Forces.

I understand the prototype armoured car the Minister mentioned last year is finding general acceptance. In some aspects it is superior to the French vehicles lying around so many squares. These will probably end up on the scrap heap. The possibility is that if these armoured vehicles are a success we may get orders from abroad.

On the question of a reassessment of the entire service we should avail of those who are experts in this field. Purchases of equipment should not be made on the basis of drawings and literature. Personnel who served abroad must have had a great deal of experience in different types of equipment and their advice should be sought when equipment is being purchased. It does not matter whether they are junior or senior officers, provided they have had the experience their advice should be taken. They should be the best judges of what is required. They know the problems There are problems in relation to spare parts in regard to some of the equipment we have and I think that the sooner we dispense with this unsatisfactory equipment the better it will be.

With regard to financing there is need for rethinking. Demands are made repeatedly for certain things and when sanction is eventually given the cost may be doubled or trebled. If only a certain amount has been made available an increase is called for in the amount required the following year and then a reduction must be made in something else so that whatever the requirement is can be provided. What might be a priority this year might cease to be priority next year. If money has been earmarked for that particular priority, then that money should be directed towards some other priority. The latter priority may be much greater and require immediate attention and immediate sanction. There should be a greater degree of flexibility. If the Army were allowed to make certain decisions in regard to finance it might be a good idea because we might possibly get a better service all round. The amount of money the Corps of Engineers can spend is small in relation to the amount of work that needs to be done. The amount of money that can be spent by a battalion commander is something in the region of £30. That is the amount he can spend without seeking sanction.

This situation is ludicrous. It is out-dated and the thinking behind it must be altered so as to allow for flexibility. If an allocation of money is made there should be such flexibility as would make provision for changing priorities. Although this area is an involved and complicated one the application of common sense could be a big factor in relieving many of the problems which arise and in providing a better service for the Army. I ask the Minister to have the situation examined and altered in such a way that nobody in Coláiste Chaoimhín or anywhere else would be able to override the decision of the person on the spot who is dealing with a priority and who must implement make-shift arrangements while money is available for some other purpose which at the moment may not be of the same importance. This system of a financial tie-up has strangled the service to a large degree.

There should be increased facilities for the Army Medical Corps. In this regard I am glad to note the Minister has indicated that St. Bricin's is being utilised further for the treatment of pensioners and certain other categories of persons. It is very important that facilities be available for doctors of the Army Medical Corps to attend postgraduate courses. With so many new drugs and medical techniques becoming available doctors must keep themselves informed of the changes and advances. The facilities for doing this are not available in the military hospital.

The same applies to engineers and technical personnel in the Army. They, too, should be facilitated to allow them to study construction work both at home and abroad. While these people are efficient in their own right they must keep abreast of the advances in bridge-building and other construction works.

Regarding drivers in the Army there is one point which has been brought to my attention and which I should like to put to the Minister. This concerns ex-Army men who, during their service, have been engaged on driving duties but who, on retiring, have to present themselves for a Department of Local Government driving test. I know of a case in which an ex-Army man failed his test although during his service he had been training personnel to drive. This is a fairly common complaint. Therefore, there should be some liaison between the Departments of Defence and Local Government in this regard. It is ridiculous that a man who has been driving heavy military vehicles on our roads for a number of years should be deemed unsuitable to drive by a driver tester from the Department of Local Government. There should be no need for a test in such cases. During my time in the Army I underwent courses and driving tests and in my opinion the Army instructors were as competent as any to be found outside. It is strange that a man deemed unsuitable to drive a small car should be suitable to drive heavy Army trucks whether in the Congo, Cyprus or at home and we know that our Army men have driven vehicles efficiently in such places.

There is a problem in connection with people retiring from the Army and re-entering civilian life. In other countries there is a variety of facilities to help people readjust to this situation but we are completely lacking in any such facilities. Within the Army there should be established a specialist section to deal with the training of personnel, particularly long serving soldiers, for their change to civilian life. For instance, there should be advice on such matters as housing and on what prospects there may be for them in other State and in semi-State concerns.

The position at present is that a long serving private who retires goes out at the bottom rung of the ladder if he has had no specific training. In regard to long serving officers there should be facilities for the acquisition of an academic qualification other than that which they may have had on joining the Army. This would help them to cope with the problem of re-entering civilian life. Too often NCOs and others who have given long service in the Army finish up in civilian life serving petrol because of their lack of qualifications. It should be possible to introduce various schemes of retraining personnel. Specialists would be required for this purpose so that programmes could be formulated in the best way possible.

I am glad to note the increasing numbers of ex-servicemen being employed in various barracks on such tasks as cooking, for instance. In this way Army personnel are available for other duties. I trust that the second phase of this programme will be implemented soon. This type of thinking should be brought to bear also in regard to technical personnel so that these, too, might be relieved of some of their less important tasks and apply themselves to the more important side of their work. They could devote some of their time and energies to the problem of resettlement. This is a big problem and it is not one that can be solved easily. If we do not look after Army personnel when they retire we will have great difficulty in getting recruits. The best campaign we could launch for recruits would be to show how concerned we are about personnel when they leave the service. If we do not show that concern we will reach the stage where we will have very few recruits.

It is of vital importance that training schemes should be introduced to help retiring personnel resettle in civilian life. I am aware of the apprenticeship schemes in Naas and Baldonnel and the other educational facilities but we should have concern for the educationally disadvantaged men, the soldiers who cannot avail of these educational opportunities. Such soldiers represent the weakest section of personnel being discharged. They retire on the lowest rung of the ladder and join the labour market in a similar position. They must compete with people who have been on the labour market for upwards of 30 years.

When a soldier signs on for his last term he should be made aware of the various grants available for houses and warned of the danger of finishing up in married quarters as an overholder. We should ensure that such soldiers have a stake in the community when they retire. It is pathetic to see so many of our Army personnel having to spend their retirement in married quarters. In most cases the families of such soldiers are married and have families of their own with the result that they do not qualify for local authority houses.

The married quarters in Athlone are very creditable but married quarters in other barracks are a disgrace. Soldiers and their families are entitled to the ordinary comforts of life while serving in the Defence Forces. Some of the quarters they live in are outdated and misplaced. In regard to the housing of Army personnel, I believe it is not the function of the Department of Defence to do this but the function of another Department. The provision and maintenance of married quarters for Army personnel should be taken out of the Estimate for this Department and taken over by the local authorities where Army posts are. It is the duty of the Army to train, equip and clothe the personnel so that they are ready to defend this country at the drop of a hat; it is not the duty of the Army to provide married quarters for the personnel. Where Army personnel are based local authorities should be more co-operative in housing them.

I am aware that the Department of Defence do not like pushing married men out of their quarters after they have given 30 or 40 years' service to the Army. Because of this, and because many of the young married soldiers are obliged to live in flats which cost in the region of £10 per week, the question of housing soldiers should be taken over by another Department. It would take a courageous man to solve the problem of overholders but there must be a way around it. Successive Ministers have hoped that the problem would die out but that is no solution. The solution must be just and proper and not hurt or injure in any way the men who served this State. I hope accommodation can be found for soldiers in the towns where they are based. They are based in these towns because of a Government decision to have a military post there. I accept that this is a delicate problem but in solving it we must ensure that an injustice is not done to anybody.

Soldiers are given predischarge leave in order to give them an opportunity of preparing to take up employment when they retire. I agree with this. However, a soldier, while on this leave, who secures a position with, for instance, Roadstone, can commence work while on leave but a soldier who obtains a position in the canteen in the barracks is deprived of his predischarge leave.

This is a farcical situation. The leave is for resettlement and should be given to all personnel. It should not make any difference where a man gets a job, whether it be in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, Roadstone or in some other civilian employment. If it is in civilian employment, it is considered to be all right but surely both have to resettle in civilian life? It is completely wrong that one is denied one's basic rights in relation to resettlement because one obtains a job in a military post. That is an important aspect the Minister must examine again to ensure that justice is done all round. The Minister is aware that one cannot get a job in a barracks, in a Government service and at the same time avail of resettlement leave. It is a ridiculous situation. The question of overholders is quite another matter in relation to jobs. There is a tie-up between housing, job, pension and a variety of other matters. But, in relation to predischarge leave and resettlement into civilian life, there should be no loss to personnel involved. There has been a greater tendency in recent times to release Army personnel from active duty by bringing in people who are being discharged, but being discharged with forfeiture of their predischarge leave.

In relation to barrack facilities, the one area which receives severe criticism is that of Finner camp, its reconstruction or the provision of an alternative camp in a suitable area at the earliest possible opportunity. This because of the Border situation should receive the Minister's immediate attention. I believe also the question of system built units should be examined so that they might be made available to relieve pressures in the various barracks. There are many system built structures now which are substantial and which could be moved from camp to camp which can be of a permanent or semi-permanent nature. They are just as good and as viable as any normal construction. The canteen facilities in Cork barracks are minimal. Such facilities badly need to be up-dated bearing in mind the influx of people to the area. I believe also that swimming pools should be provided in such areas if we want to maintain as many personnel in a camp as possible rather than having to send them three, four, five or ten miles away to avail of such facilities. Do we want military personnel on call continuously? If we do, then we must provide such facilities. I think the question of married quarters should be taken out of the Defence budget altogether.

I listened attentively to the Minister the other day in relation to the question of gratuities for single officers, NCOs and men. I think he indicated that it would be costly or that it would be phased-in. As I said earlier, this is one of the reasons why people remain on in the Army in the hope that gratuities will be made to them in time, perhaps next month or the month after. I do not understand this. Either there is an entitlement to them or there is not. Either we have a positive policy in relation to them and people will receive them or not. We cannot be selective in this matter. Does the Minister mean that each person will receive a small amount and that there will be gradual increases over the years? We have a responsibility to such people. As a matter of fact, when we consider the single man as against his married counterpart the Army gets much better service from the former on the basis that he is available at all times. There was a saying by a famous officer, Matt Feehan: "A soldier married is a soldier lost." That goes back many years. That was his view at that time and it is one fairly generally held. When you have a single man you have him all the time. But I do not see any reason why they should be victimised. For what is the gratuity issued? Is it that a man can purchase a house and settle down when he leaves the service? In some cases that appears to be the belief, to assist in resettlement into civilian life and the procuring of a home. If that is the case, do we expect the single man to live on the side of the road or end up in an institution? Why do married officers get it and not single? I can see no practical way of phasing in gratuities for NCOs and men.

I am glad to note that the Minister has taken positive steps in relation to the equitation school. Over the years it has been a question of who was in charge. Whether or not he was a horsey man. If he was one with no horsey background, then the school went to the dickens. On the other hand, if he had, the school did well. This is an area in which we must have a very positive approach. I would like to see such facilities extended to officers of the FCA and, indeed, to NCOs and men. I think it was Sergeant Finlay when he participated in the States many years ago—because of somebody falling ill—who won the competitions. History shows that we have available a large pool of personnel equipped to participate in many shows. Its activities should be widened. If we are going to have a small, select group of individuals, hand-picked for one reason or another, then we will not have the type of personnel probably best fitted to get the best from the school. As the Minister has pointed out, they have done excellent work. They won many trophies last year but the broader aspect must be considered in the future.

I hope the whole code of pensions will be re-examined in the light of present day conditions and in regard to special allowances. There should be some relaxation of the means test in relation to special allowances. That is the weakest section of society which must be treated with dignity and understanding and, as the Minister has pointed out, they are diminishing in numbers. It is a recognition of service and while we can we should assist these people to a greater degree because they will be all too soon forgotten.

There is the question also of forward budgeting for the Defence Forces possibly five years would be a more realistic basis.

There is a lot more I should like to say. I should like to compare some of our problems with those elsewhere but the time factor enters in. I have been doing a survey of the situation of veterans' benefits elsewhere. Perhaps at a later stage either by way of questions to or discussion with the Minister or with members of his Department we could endeavour to iron out some of the problems involved here.

I should also like to mention the proposed prison at the Curragh. I feel prisons should not be sited in military camps. It puts military at risk, the camp at some risk and is not the most desirable of situations. If there is a development in the future and if prisons of one type or another are provided, they should be far removed from the camps.

To recap, I would hope the Minister would review the armed services in relation to the efficiency of men, their availability, their fitness on grounds of age. I want to pay tribute to the men of long service who have given dedicated service to the nation, who have done a good job in difficult conditions, sometimes with bad equipment in the past. They served with dignity and honour abroad and brought credit to the country.

In the phasing out of personnel and the development of a new and vital force, opportunities for promotion must be considered so that young recruits would know that there would be an opportunity for promotion at an early stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time is exhausted.

Mr. Dowling

I should like to see complete reorganisation of the FCA on the lines indicated so that they will be brought back to the position which obtained in former days, so that there would be continuity and the FCA could be used as a means of phasing out officers or NCOs who could thus give extended service without interference with prospects of promotion for others.

I want to thank the officials of the Department and the Minister. I do not want to be critical of the Minister. He may have been perturbed about something I said. I do not want to discredit the Minister because he has done a good job in many fields.

Mr. Power

Again on this occasion I want to compliment the Minister on the courtesy which he and his staff have extended to me during the year. Representing Kildare, I have a great deal to do with Army personnel and I have had on occasions to make representations to the Minister. I always found him very helpful and on some occasions he went beyond the line of duty to be helpful. I appreciate that he has an interest and a desire to help. I thank him.

We are fortunate in having an Army that has always been loyal to a man to successive Governments and successive Ministers. In the past we had too rapid a turnover of Ministers and Ministers for Defence did not stay very long but were assigned to other Departments. I trust that the present Minister will remain for some time until a Minister from our side of the House takes over.

I would compliment our new spokesman on Defence from our side of the House. Obviously, he knows what he is talking about. His contribution could be summed up as the contribution of an old soldier, not so much looking back in anger as looking forward in hope.

I have been a Member of this House since 1969. I had the impression and there were good grounds for that impression that the Army was treated as the Cinderella and that when pruning had to be done it was the Army that was pruned. Unfortunately, my arrival in this House coincided with a very serious outbreak in the North, which is still with us. It took an emergency like that to make us appreciate the need for a highly efficient and well equipped Army for security and other reasons. We have now reached the situation, and I am glad of that at least, that Members on all sides of the House realise that money spent on the Army is money well spent and that whatever we do in regard to any branch of the Defence Forces must be done well.

I should like to emphasise that it is not strictly necessary that we should ape what other countries do. We should do our own thing but should do it well. I am glad to learn that money is being spent in many respects that might not have been spent some time ago. Because of the lack of expenditure on the Army the Army was allowed to run down and equipment was allowed to run down. What I have to say may be taken as criticism but I can assure the Minister that it is sincere and based on my personal experience and from talking to people who are deeply involved and interested in the Army and the future of the Army.

The Minister referred to the recruiting drive carried out during the year, He referred to the fact that an increase of 646 all ranks was achieved in 12 months. I do not think we can compliment ourselves on this. In a year when there are 103,000 people unemployed it amazes me that more people are not interested in joining the Army or cannot be enticed into the Army. Recently I saw a notice in Kilkenny inviting people to join the Army and indicating the increase in pay. Money is not everything. Accommodation and type of work involved are factors affecting the situation. When members of the Army return to their home area with accounts of the accommodation in the Curragh, which in many cases is archaic, this will not entice others from the locality to join the Army with the result that men find themselves with too much duty to carry out, too much being imposed on too few.

There is a limit to the number of persons in any country who wish to volunteer for the Defence Forces but it is evident that everything is not all right with the Army in terms of service conditions and the type of work involved when at a time when so many people are idle there is such a meagre number volunteering for service.

I am very pleased that married men are now allowed to join the Army. The reasons why this was not allowed some years ago may have been compelling reasons. I am glad that these have been overcome. My colleague suggested that a married man is a man lost to the Army. I do not agree.

It may be presumptuous of me coming from an inland county to refer to the Slua Muirí but it is essential that we should decide what our policy is with regard to the Slua Muirí. I understand that the policy is fishery protection and training. I welcome the provision of the sailing vessel referred to by the Minister. I hope our participation in the sailing competition will bring victory. I can see the Minister's influence at work here and this is a good thing. On a visit to Holland last year with a group of Parliamentarians we were brought sailing in a State yacht. This was greatly appreciated even though we were only sailing on the lakes and canals of Friesland. This is something that we could copy when we have visitors from other countries. I hope we will be in a position to offer them an Irish equivalent. It would be a good advertisement for this island country which has not yet succeeded in building up the fisheries and the tonnage that we would like to have.

During the year I was in Ballycotton and Galway. I was there on political business. I made contact with some of the local people. They were very perturbed that our fishery protection is very limited indeed and that normally speaking we have only one boat operative at a time. It is something of a joke. If we are serious about protecting our fisheries we must do better than that. The suggestion has been made to me that we need more boats or ships in selected areas to patrol and protect our coasts. It is not necessary for us to have very big boats but we should have sufficient small boats competent to deal with this type of patrolling and protection. At present we are not giving adequate coverage to the job we have to do. If our fishery limit is extended to 200 miles, as some would hope to have it, we will need more boats and greater protection. There is obviously a need here for very close liaison between helicopters and An Slua Muirí. I hope this will be forthcoming because we have a huge harvest to be reaped and protected at sea. What we are doing at present is not very effective.

I welcome the new helicopters and jets which the Minister has on order. I am sure they were needed. The Air Corps has been very run down for years. An example of that is to be seen at Baldonnel. When I saw the huts, hangars and out-dated buildings there five or six years ago they were very bad. I am not aware that they have been renewed or replaced. We need a big effort there. It is not fair to ask people to instruct or to receive instruction in such surroundings. I hope something will be done to improve that situation in Casement Aerodrome. From what I saw of it, Casement would not be very proud of it.

We should examine the role we visualise for our Air Corps. We must realise we are a small country and not in a position to compete with other countries with the resources they have. We should cut our cloth according to our measure and whatever we do we should do it well. If our Air Corps is to be geared in a certain fashion we should have sufficient money to deal with it and if we cannot cope with that we should do whatever we do well, whether it is mercy missions, training or fishery protection in liaison with An Slua Muirí.

We have four Army bands which are doing very good work. I find them readily available for civilian functions and they add a new and welcome dimension to such functions. For some time the personnel of the Army bands have not been very happy with their terms of employment and the fact that they have to sign on for 12 years. When they compare their terms of employment and hope for promotion and financial reward at the end of every three years with other units in which people may sign on again and get an allowance for that they do not compare favourably. It is high time we had a look at our Army bands. In the smaller unit there is less hope of promotion. People are reluctant to sign on for 12 years with very little hope of promotion. We should open fresh avenues of promotion or help them in some way because the people in the Army bands do not fare as well as people in other units. They are aware of this and it is a source of dissatisfaction to them. I am aware of the very good work they do and the very fine training they get and I hope this source of dissatisfaction will be removed.

I welcome the Minister's reference to the Army School of Equitation. Possibly his personal influence has been extended to this area too. The spending is welcome but I would encourage him to spend more. I am glad of the limited victories of the Army School of Equitation during the past year. We should have as a target the recapturing of the glory we had in the past. For many years there was a slump in our Army and national teams. Let us hope that an effort will be made to retain good jumpers here and good riders and that we will regain the proud position we once had. The Army are doing quite a lot here and abroad to advertise our jumpers and short of L'Escargot's win last Saturday in the Grand National the best fillip our jumpers could get would be a win with Army personnel involved in the Aga Khan Cup at the Horse Show. Here we are in a position to display our wares to the horsey world. We have a wonderful shop window at our disposal and I hope every effort will be made to boost our economy, if nothing else, and indeed it needs boosting badly. Any money spent on the Army School of Equitation will be well spent and will provide a good return.

I share the concern of my colleague in regard to Army drivers. A person who is driving all types of Army vehicles such as lorries and landrovers and is quite competent to drive them does not automatically have a licence that would entitle him to drive an ordinary vehicle as a private individual. There should be close co-operation between the Ministers for Local Government and Defence. When a driver is found by the Army authorities to be competent to drive and in some cases even to teach others to drive this qualification should be recognised by the Department of Local Government and an Army driver when leaving the Army should have an automatic transfer of licence. With goodwill I cannot see any reason why that cannot be done.

The Minister said it is hoped to evacuate Cathal Brugha Barracks and that a barracks will be built outside Dublin.

Mr. Donegan

It is not a hope, it is a decision.

Mr. Power

I have a hope in regard to that. I hope the Minister will not let parochial feelings sway him in regard to the siting of this new barracks. I have a distinct fear that the location could well be Meath or Louth and that the present problems in the northern part of our country might be the determining factor. I have every hope that the troubles that now beset us in that part of our country will be long gone before the barracks are completed. I have viewed this from many angles and I am confident that the ideal site for such a barracks is the Curragh Camp. That is the obvious place. There is a variety of sites, should the Minister wish to look at them, which he owns himself. We have all the facilities and we are in a central position.

I am glad that Cathal Brugha Barracks is to be evacuated. I presume that this very important property will be offered for sale and what it will realise will go a long way towards providing a proper barracks in some other part of the country. I am not so happy—although I suppose they are necessary—with the proposals to remove some of the installations and possibly some of the personnel to a Dublin barracks. If there were an emergency in Dublin at 5 o'clock on a Friday evening the Army could not succeed in getting through the city during the rush hour. It is essential to have the Army in a central position so that they can be alerted and on the road instantly.

We have every facility in the Curragh. We have facilities for the landing of helicopters, or planes if necessary. I can assure the Minister that we in Kildare would welcome the Army. They have become part and parcel of Kildare life. In many other areas where the Minister proposed to build a barracks there was a certain amount of local agitation. In some places they were not too happy about a barracks being built there. We in Kildare would welcome it. If we look at it from a rational angle, the siting of this barracks should be in Kildare, on the Curragh. Every facility the Army would need is convenient there. A compelling reason which might be given is proximity to the northern part of our country for the new barracks. I hope that reason will not remain with us for too long more.

I hope the Minister will keep his head when all about him are losing theirs. The time seems to be ripe, amongst the present members of the Cabinet, for doing away with Irish. Irish is not needed now for entry into the civil service or the Army. I would hope that the old tradition of commands being given in Irish will remain in the Army. I have no indication that it is likely that it will be dropped. Recently I attended a military funeral and I was impressed with the guard of honour provided, and I was very impressed with their deportment and their responses to the commands in Irish.

I should like to impress on the Minister, if I need to impress it on him, that cadets in the Curragh have received their training and their commands in Irish and among them are Zambians who are over here for their training. The standards of these cadets are so good, and they appealed to such an extent to the late President of the United States, that they were invited over subsequently to take part in his funeral. I would hope that the degree of excellence which can be attained with the use of our native language will not be missing in the future. We should keep our command "Máirseáil" and other commands we have at the moment and let them ring out in the Middle East, or Cyprus, or anywhere else our Irish Army go.

I should like to mention something which is near to the heart of every soldier. The Army have carried out unusual duties at the request of the police and at the request of the Minister during the past year. I should like to compliment them on this. Many Army personnel have found themselves in very uncomfortable surroundings, at awkward times, and for very long periods, and have done their stint without a murmur. In his speech the Minister mentioned that the military acted with great restraint on the occasion of the recent fatal accident at Portlaoise Prison. While I regret that accident, I, too, would compliment the Army personnel on the restraint they have always shown.

I have every evidence of that restraint. It has been shown in the face of intense provocation. I have seen young Irishmen tied up on a Sunday when they would prefer, I am sure, to be playing games, being spat on and subjected to all sorts of insults by protesters who, I know, represent a very small and insignificant minority, but who create noise out of all proportion to their numbers. These are a group of people who were never prepared to offer themselves to the electorate for their judgment. I share the regard the Minister has for the restraint shown by our Army. I compliment him on mentioning it and I share his views.

I am a little worried about plans now in train for a high security prison in the Curragh Camp. I endeavoured to raise this matter during Question Time but the Minister for Justice apparently feels that it is the concern of the Minister for Defence. So far as I know, this is a very big job, indeed, and very expensive, and very elaborate. If the Minister is undertaking this work off his own bat I would be very surprised, indeed, because the number of Army personnel who would normally be in difficulties and occupying the Glasshouse on any occasion would not be more than five or six, I am sure.

I am a bit perturbed that the Curragh Camp has been chosen as a site for this high security prison. It must be the intention of the Government that this site will be used for the housing of civilian prisoners or whatever way you like to describe them. The present unusual duties, which they are not particularly happy about, which the Army have to undertake would appear to be on-going if we are to have this prison in the camp. I cannot imagine how the Army will be relieved of duties in this prison.

I am sure none of us would visualise a situation in which this prison would be needed for a very long period to deal with this particular type of prisoner and we would hope that it could be used for other purposes later on. I should like to hear from the Minister whether it will be of such a nature that it can revert to military use later on. I should not like to think that forever there will be a prison in the Curragh Camp for prisoners of this type or civilian prisoners, or other types of prisoners apart from the type of prisoner now visualised for it. I should like to hear the Minister on that and to get some idea of what he has in mind.

I welcome the increased allowances to which the Minister referred for Border duties. They are very welcome indeed. As I mentioned during the year, there is no overtime available to the Army. I suppose the nature of their job is such that they are expected to work when they are needed and for as long a period as they are needed. I am glad the allowances have been increased and I hope some system of better allowances will be introduced for those on Border duty and those guarding installations.

A subject which I have threshed out every year and which is coming up all the time is housing in the Army. I welcome the new billet which has been built in the Army apprentice school in Naas. That was badly needed. I am sorry indeed, that 50 houses for married quarters which we had hoped would be started in June, 1974, for married soldiers in the Curragh Camp, have not yet been provided. All we know is that planning is at an advanced stage. I wonder at the delay and I sincerely hope the houses will be built this year. I should like a guarantee of that.

Kildare County Council are very concerned and they have been very co-operative, as I am sure the Minister is aware, in ensuring that soldiers in Kildare who apply for houses get the same facilities as civilians do. We cannot, of course, regard overholders in married quarters as being inadequately housed. Were we to do so it would be an indictment of the Minister. These overholders cannot, therefore, expect to get precedence over civilians who are inadequately housed when they are considered to be adequately housed. We have done a good deal to help and recently when a scheme of houses was being allocated in Droichead Nua we set aside three or four houses so that the Minister could put selected overholders into them. That is a very definite sign of our co-operation and goodwill. I have yet to see any comparable signs on the part of the Minister.

I hope we will not lose sight of the plan for providing houses near the Curragh. The best solution would be a purchase scheme for young married soldiers who would eventually own the houses; they would not then have to pull up their roots and they would go on living in the environment in which they had worked and their children had grown up. We made two efforts to provide sites in the Brownstown area. These were unsuccessful and the scheme now appears to have been shelved. It was suggested that a county council site in Rathgarvan, convenient to the Curragh, could be used for houses for soldiers should the Minister wish to build them. The site was capable of taking 30 houses or so. My latest information is that money is not available to develop the site. I hope the money will be made available to the Minister so that something definite will be done by the Department to provide houses for overholders. The problem is aggravated by the fact that overholders are held up in their pensions, and they cannot hope for any position in the Corps of Engineers in the Curragh. I would impress on the Minister that Kildare County Council have done their bit. I have yet to see any action on the part of the Minister. He should not lose sight of the fact that houses are needed. The purchase type scheme would be the ideal long-term solution. There would then be no overholders.

Medical attention is available to military personnel and their wives and families in the Curragh Camp. Those living at a distance from the camp are expected to travel to the Curragh for these facilities. They cannot avail of the facilities if the patient is confined to bed. Would it be possible to solve this problem by making the services of a local doctor available?

We should encourage as many young people as possible to join the FCA and the Civil Defence. Both provide excellent training. Training in the FCA could be the answer to the all too prevalent vandalism because, in my experience, I have never known of a soldier to be guilty of vandalism and we have three barracks in Kildare. He seems to have a respect for property. The FCA and the Civil Defence organisation could be very beneficial from the point of view of training young people in a respect for property.

I am glad our spokesman raised the question of promotions in the FCA. The Minister's hackles rose immediately. I have been informed by friends involved in the FCA in Cork that personnel outside of their unit were promoted to serve in Cork. There may be a good reason for that, but it is a bone of contention and it is designed to make the cynics more cynical.

It is regrettable that we had to withdraw the Irish unit in the Middle East, but our first duty is to keep our own house in order and, were I in the Minister's shoes, I should have done exactly what he did.

There does not seem to be as much interest in Civil Defence as there should be. It seems to be difficult to bring home to people the danger of nuclear warfare. The Minister should start some scheme of education to arouse more interest in Civil Defence. Something should be done to encourage more people to become involved because Civil Defence is of vital importance. Whatever is being done at the moment is not sufficient to arouse the interest there should be.

In the case of the special allowance the Minister gave an average of £132 a year. Recently I made representations on behalf of a man, an old age pensioner, who let one year elapse before he made application. He was granted £49 a year. He said the money was welcome but he was amused at how ridiculously small it was. Would it not be possible to arrive at a minimum figure? That would not be too much to expect. The figure should be £2 a week or £104 a year. That would give some practicality to the special allowance. No doubt the administrative cost of paying the £49 by way of a number of instalments in the year is quite substantial. We can assume that there would not be a prohibitive cost involved in bringing up some of the smaller pensions to a minimum of £200 per year. It is not good enough that a person who has received a medal for service, who is entitled to a special allowance and who is lucky enough to enjoy good health up to 70 years of age, should be paid only a paltry sum.

There was an announcement during the year that the Minister hoped to recruit women to the Army. I trust this aim will be pursued so that soldiers might be relieved of such duties as work in the cookhouse. While appreciating that a little housework does nobody any harm we must bear in mind that when a man enlists and is anxious to soldier, everything possible should be done to enable him to engage in those duties. Some of the domestic duties could be carried out more efficiently and, perhaps, more cheaply, by women.

Talking with any member of the Army one is always aware of the tug-of-war going on continuously between the Army and its administrative side. At least soldiers are under the impression that the administrative side is rather top-heavy and is reluctant to show any signs of flexibility. Perhaps this would be a matter for a commission to investigate so that there might be put forward some suggestions for streamlining the situation which is one of long standing. It cannot be conducive to harmony to have the two sections at loggerheads with each other.

I understand that something has been done regarding the payment of a gratuity or a lump sum to persons such as typists or clerical staff employed temporarily in the Army and who wish after many years to retire. I should hope that arrangements would be made for the payment of a pension to persons who work hard in the Army in these capacities for a number of years.

I compliment the Minister on how readily he responded to my request regarding a lessening of the regulations for aircraft flying over the Curragh on such days as Derby day.

To revert for a moment to the question of Army pensions, I understand the situation to be that the maximum number of years that can be taken into consideration in determining a pension is 31. There should be some incentive for people who serve in the Army beyond that number of years. A person who enlists at 18 and who is due to retire at 49 might wish to continue in the Army and would be capable of giving many more years of productive service. These extra years service should be taken into account for pension purposes.

During the year the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs saw fit to state that our Army was capable only of holding a town such as Newry. This statement was given wide publicity but at no time has it been either corrected or condemned by the present Minister whose duty it is to deal with such matters. The Army are not allowed to answer a charge of that nature.

If that statement should be true, it is a shame that after more than 50 years of self government this is the best we can do regarding our Army. Such a situation would be an indictment of the parties on both sides of this House as well as of the country generally and of the personnel of the Army. It was a shocking statement for a Government Minister to make. In the first place it would be a breach of confidence on his part. But having regard to the Irish history I have learned from people who, perhaps, the Minister would condemn, I am convinced that the Minister was not correct in that statement. Our troops have always proved their ability and their loyalty. If the statement was wrong, it should have been contradicted long before now; otherwise, it remains a slight and an insult to the members of our Defence Forces.

I share with the Minister for Defence a just sense of pride in our Army. Every day I witness the part they play in our community. I am aware of the loyal service they give and of the vital protection they provide in many spheres in the unusual role they have been forced to play during those difficult times. They are always prepared to co-operate in any way with the community. Each year the Minister and personnel from his Department have occasion to visit Droichead Nua to view what one might call the mini-tattoo organised by the Army in conjunction with industrial and other exhibitions in the town. This occasion affords us a wonderful opportunity of viewing the artillery, helicopters, paratroopers, the Army Medical Corps, the Army Band and so on in action. No doubt many hours are spent in preparing for the event. When one sees an armoured car such as "Sliabh na mBan" which was used in the time of Michael Collins capable of being driven through the streets, one realises the loving care that is devoted to such vehicles. I know the Army do not consider it a duty that is foisted on them because they like to show the military equipment they possess to a discerning and appreciative public. I have seen members of the Army gymnastics team, members of the motor cycle squad and the Army band in attendance at functions and they always proved popular and helpful.

In every Army barracks we have evidence of co-operation. In a small and more mundane way we have provided by Army personnel a branch library at the Curragh Camp. It is the best branch library in the county. A great amount of work has been put by Army personnel into the provision of extra accommodation by way of shelving and this is a revelation. We have evidence also that our Army personnel are prepared to deal with any emergency such as the sudden arrival of refugees from the North. The people of Kildare are proud of the Army. The personnel stationed in that county play a full part in the community and the people gladly accept them.

It is the duty of the Minister not to allow anybody, not even a colleague, belittle the Army. If the equipment or the living accommodation of Army personnel are inadequate it is his duty to have the position corrected without delay. The Minister will not be opposed by Members on this side in his effort to improve these matters. I appeal to the Minister to look after our Defence Forces well because they are looking after our country.

Mr. Esmonde

This is a debate which is always regarded with some seriousness, particularly in the times in which we live and it is one that merits attention by the public. The Army, whether the person is a private or an officer of the highest rank, is an honourable profession. It has been brought home to the public that since the present Minister took office there has been a considerable change of attitudes in the position and standing of the Army in our society. This view seems to be getting through to the public and I am glad to see that happen. The Minister has been at great pains at all times to upgrade the Army and to give the Army their proper practical and honourable position in our society.

I wish to be associated with the words of praise and commendation uttered by the Minister, and other speakers, in relation to the restraint shown by the Army in the exercise of their duties in recent events. It must have been hard for them to endure what they had to. They must feel a sense of shame in protecting the institutions of our society when the people who are causing the difficulty are fellow-Irishmen, some of them citizens of this State. It is a matter of regret that the Army has to be used for such purposes but it is a fact that we have to live with. Nobody should make a mistake about understanding that words spoken in reference to our Army should be carefully chosen. I regret that the attitude of some Members and ex-Members, would incline one to the view that some belittlement of the Army is intended, either expressly, impliedly or by accident, when they were pursuing their misguided philosophy.

Members on this side of the House, and a great many Members in Opposition, believe in law and order not alone in principle but in practice. That is what matters most. There is an old saying that one judges a tree by its fruits; words are not enough, it is action and conduct that matter. An Army can only function and do its duty if it has the sympathy of the society it acts for. It is a disgraceful situation when citizens of this State, who can live with ease, comfort and the security of their homes, have the audacity to spit upon the uniform of this State, as mentioned by a previous speaker. This gives us an idea of the times we are living in, when much of the troubles the Army have to face are the making of citizens of this State.

To see the results of the good work and the enthusiasm of the Minister and the Government one only has to look at the success of the Army recruitment campaign. The strength of the Army is the highest in the last 25 years and it is heading for twice what it was at the outbreak of the second world war. This confirms that there has been a change of attitude by the public to the standing and position of the Army and that it is an honourable profession. It is certainly one that young men on the threshold of life should seriously consider joining. The pay is good and the circumstances of living are good. The standard of the personnel is good and that is what matters most in any profession or walk of life.

As a Deputy representing a coastal constituency I should like to advert to the problem of fishery protection. I commend the Minister's decision in relation to the type of vessel, armed and equipped, to deal with fishery protection. The Minister did not spend a lot of time on this subject and that is understandable because he had a number of other matters to cover but I should like to impress upon Deputies that whatever vessel is used must be an all-weather vessel. The circumstances off our coast require vessels of a high standard because they are dealing with possible delinquents in large ocean-going vessels that can stand up to any weather. In addition these vessels must have modern equipment.

I see a great difficulty arising in relation to fishery protection. We are all aware that a lot of the traditional fishing grounds are yielding a smaller harvest. We are aware of the fact also that off shores we have a very fruitful fishing ground. If the territorial jurisdiction for fishery exclusion areas or partial exclusion areas are to be extended, the policing of that enlarged tract of water will require a great deal more fishery protection. There are limitations in relation to fishery protection that anybody who has had anything to do with the sea will realise. Where a delinquent is spotted, where, for instance, there is no fishery protection in the immediate vicinity, and it has to be notified, a message over the ether has to be picked up. That is one of the difficulties. One has to go back to the last war to know what happened in relation to the shadowing of The Bismarck when somebody broke the silence. The Bismarck was able to travel half the Atlantic before it was finally brought to a halt by a tin fish from an aircraft carrier aeroplane.

That brings me to a suggestion that might be thought of in the oncoming circumstances of our fishery protection. I think we will have to build up a helicopter fleet, doing regular patrols so that there will be built up some system of advance warning to ships operating, or likely to operate, in a certain area. I know that is going to be difficult. I know that weather conditions do not always allow for such. I know that there is also a shortage of personnel and of finance for the purpose. I am aware of the fact as is everybody else that helicopters are very expensive machines to run. They have a very high depreciation rate. Therefore, the cost of having fishery protection supplemented by helicopter patrols is a question that will have to be thought of very carefully but I cannot see any alternative to providing a policing system of the fishery grounds off our shores. I am not aware that there is any other method of signalling than radio which can always be picked up. There may be something new in military circles. If so, it would be a happy thing to know that such was available and could be utilised for sending messages when a foreign vessel is spotted contravening regulations in regard to fishing areas or limits.

As I am dealing with helicopters, there is another matter I should like to mention—the Minister quite rightly referred to it—the 75 rescue missions performed by the Army helicopter service. Certain people alive today would not be so were it not for that service. That fact is known to anybody associated with the medical profession or with hospital services. In this connection, I would like to make a suggestion. I know it will mean increased costs but it would mean also an increased saving of life. It is in relation to conditions other than those caused by accidents, certain medical conditions which require very quick treatment and where transport of a patient by car or ambulance is not the best method. Many people have lost their lives as a result of having to be transported over land, no other means of transport being available. More thought might be given to that. It might be linked up with, say, the country hospital services and arrangements made that a person be brought to an intensive care clinic if such was available.

I am glad to note that the Minister and his Department have given a fair amount of thought to the question of providing higher education for members of the armed services. We are living in a technological age in which people who have not got specialised training or higher education sometimes find themselves at a severe disadvantage. Whilst a considerable amount of emphasis has been placed on education, with a view to employment outside the Army, I am glad to see the Minister point to the fact that higher education is of assistance within the Army and should be encouraged because it makes for efficiency and higher standards. After all, if the Army has to rub shoulders with the civilian world in its functions, it is only right that it have the same standards as the rest of society. I think an attitude was built up in the past that once a person went into the Army, he got his Army training, his uniform, conditions and that was that. I am pleased to note that change of policy and attitude.

In relation to the equitation school, we can say that had there not been a change of Government we would not have an equitation school today. The situation was very serious on the change of Government. I am pleased to note that a considerable amount of money has been expended on the purchase of new horses. What is not realised in relation to the Army Equitation School is that one is not alone dealing with horses but with men who ride and deal with them, who have to spend anything from five to six years to qualify as proper riders in top class showjumping. There is far more to it than horses jumping at shows or competitions. It is a question of national prestige. It is something of which we are all proud and we should like to see the tradition of the equitation school continued and, in particular, the Army involved in it. I know from attending country shows and from stewarding at competitions that there is considerable goodwill shown particularly towards the Army. When one sees a young Army officer riding or trying out a new horse from the equitation school at a provincial show it is very heartening to see the attitude of the public, how they go along with the Army candidate in the competition. It means that the decision taken by the Minister and the Government to put money into the equitation school has been justified and is approved by the public.

I am glad to notice also the expedidition with which the Minister has dealt with that branch now under his wing, namely sail training. He has now adopted that very important child of national activity. He appears to be making a very good job of his responsibility in that regard. It is very reassuring to know that the new ship will be available and sailing in 1976. But, having said that—and I am sure the Minister will agree with me—the Minister could not have done what he has without the voluntary help he has obtained from those people who have given time, with expense on their part to helping young people in this sail training course.

I want to thank the Minister on behalf of many members in the armed service who had problems about accommodation in the Army. Immediate and sympathetic consideration was given to the question of accommodation of members of the armed forces and of their families. The Department has been very sympathetic and realistic in any problems that have arisen in that regard.

The last speaker expressed some concern in relation to the building and construction of the new prison at the Curragh. He hoped it would not be there for ever. None of us wants to see it even started there but present circumstances demand that it be done because as long as there are people of violence who are not prepared to recognise the ordinary law of the land security prisons have to be provided and whether it be a civilian or otherwise who is responsible for that violence a prison will have to be provided and the sooner the better and that prison will have to be maintained as long as that type of person is stalking our land.

We have evidence of a very sad aspect of the Army's activity. It is the fact referred to in the Minister's speech, that the Army had to partake with the Garda at 16,000 joint Army and Garda check-points. It is a tragic indictment of the conduct of certain people in our society if that was required and had to be done. I know that much of it is not necessary in this part of our small island but it is still a tragic reflection on the society in which we are now living and the attitude of society to law and order that the Army have to spend so much of their time on that type of activity.

The Minister, referring to the Army, also said that internal security continues to dominate their activities. This is costing every citizen of the society in which we live a considerable amount of money in taxation and otherwise. The people who indulge in violence should be given no encouragement whatever. They have no mandate from the people. We have a duty here in this House, with the help of the Army and the Garda, to keep law and order and that is what this Government and this side of the House certainly intend to do.

Mr. Callanan

Let me first pay tribute to the Minister and his staff for the courtesy which they extend to everybody who makes any inquiry of the Department of Defence. I should like to add my voice to those who have spoken about that. One need not be afraid to approach the Department of Defence with a problem. Every courtesy and attention is given. I should also like to congratulate Deputy Dowling on his appointment as spokesman on Defence. He acquitted himself with distinction today. He showed that he know all about the Army and Army life.

I have not been in the regular Army but I served in the FCA during the emergency and know a little about Army life in harder times than now. It was fairly rough going. There was not this accommodation available that is now provided. The meals and other services provided now are well above the standard we had to tolerate.

I should like to express pleasure in regard to the opportunities now provided for Army personnel to equip themselves for civilian life. On a previous occasion I expressed the view that an Army recruit should start at the bottom and go through every grade. In my time there was a little bit of snobbery associated with the Army. In the barracks square one obeys one's superior but when off duty rank should not matter. I am not in a position to say what the present position is and therefore would not like to be taken as criticising the present set-up.

I do not think the uniform has improved greatly for the ordinary soldier. The officers and NCOs had a very nice uniform. I never got further than the rank of sergeant and the uniform was not very nice. The Army is the showpiece of the nation and the Army should look well.

I was glad to hear the Minister's statement in regard to the jumping team and its achievements. I am a member of one of the oldest horse shows outside of Ballsbridge. We have always had the Army team present at the Ballinasloe show. We thought the show would not be as good if they were not present. On a few occasions we would have been glad if they had stayed at home because the horses knocked all before them. This was not giving a good image. When sending horses to local shows the best horses should be sent. During the horse show week Ballinasloe has many visitors and they are on the stand looking at the jumping. We expect a good performance from the Army jumping team. If the horses are not up to standard the riders cannot be blamed. I would ask the Minister to take note of this point. The Army jumping team should be provided with good jumpers. Those that they have at present are reasonably good and I should like to see that continued.

I should like now to refer to the position of the man who had a driver's licence while in the Army and had been driving Army trucks for years who had to undergo a driving test when he left the Army. The Minister should consult with the other Department concerned in regard to this matter. I would agree with Deputy Dowling in regard to this matter.

Next I want to refer to the Old IRA. I want to compliment the Minister on the fact that when the Army are asked to provide a firing party one is provided. There is a rule under which there is a limit of 25 miles from barracks beyond which special permission must be obtained. This is not fair. I know the Minister has never let anybody down and I compliment him on that but an Old IRA man who is outside the 25 mile limit from a barracks should not have to get this special permission.

There are military service pensions and there are special allowances. Special allowances are given because people need them. When a military service pensioner dies his widow is entitled to something after his death but when the recipient of a special allowance dies his allowance dies with him. Since the allowance was given because the person needed it, surely there is a very good reason to continue payment to the widow?

The FCA has been amalgamated with the Army. This may be a good thing and it may not. If we want recruits coming into the FCA we must put the FCA on view and very few people see the FCA nowadays. During the Emergency a young fellow would be almost ashamed not to be a member because the FCA took part in all parades, trained on Sundays and so on. One does not expect that in normal times but if young people could see more of the FCA more people would join. There is very little local training done nowadays. A few years in the FCA is good for any young man. It is the best training he could get.

This is not a controversial Estimate. The Army are a credit to the country and as good as any other Army. The Minister should keep the showpieces of the Army up to standard. The best showpiece is the jumping team because they represent us abroad. The FCA should be more on display so that the youth of today are attracted to the Army. I would ask the Minister again to have a look at the question of special allowances.

I like to give credit where it is due and I should like to compliment the Minister on a very fine brief. He is doing a good job for the Army. Our spokesman on Defence has acquitted himself well today. I think both the Minister and our spokesman are going around and meeting the people. A Minister should talk to the ordinary men. There is too much talk in this country about officers and colonels. There are only a small number of those but if the chips were down in the morning the ordinary private is the guy who would count. The Minister should meet him and find out whether he is satisfied with his pay and conditions. This I think the Minister is doing and this is what the Shadow Minister has been doing in the short time since he has been appointed. Both of them are doing a good job.

Mr. Taylor

It is obvious from the contributions made from all sides that there is full recognition of the importance of having an Army at full strength. That was forcibly brought before the people four or five years ago when the security of the State and the forces of law and order were violated in many areas and in many respects. It must be heartening for the Minister to hear from Deputies that his work is being appreciated at all levels. There is a responsibility on Deputies to let the Minister and the Army know that there is full appreciation of the value of their work. The maintenance of law and order is the first responsibility of any Government. At a time when there are people who do not recognise our Army and our Garda Síochána it is good to know that the Government are determined that the Defence Forces should be properly equipped. The fact that we are spending £48 million on the Defence Forces is a clear indication of the Government's intention that nobody can threaten the forces of this State without having to meet with a reverse and a very sudden one at that. That is how it should be. From time to time we have to listen to expressions from people who have been elected to public life which make one wonder whether they are with the Minister and the Army or whether they are with those who threaten the institutions of the State. This type of ambiguity should come to an end. When lives are at stake and the institutions of the State are threatened, no encouragement should be given to people who would like to influence others and who try to ride both horses at a critical period in our history.

Internal security is causing concern to the Minister and the Government and the maintenance of freedom for all our people is of concern to the Government. People in public life should discourage people who have irregular tendencies. They can also exercise a marked influence in strengthening our Defence Forces. They can encourage recruits to our Defence Forces whether voluntary or full-time.

When somebody said that being a member of the Defence Forces in any capacity is giving a service to the nation he was not overstating the case. He is a member of one of the noblest professions. To offer one's life in the national service must be appreciated by all the civilian population. Over the years this country has never failed, either in a time of emergency or in peace time to have an adequate number or regular Army personnel or volunteers to ensure the security of the State.

It must be of great satisfaction to the Minister that his recruiting drives have been more than successful. They must continue because of the turnover which seems to be part an parcel of Army life. The period of service for which most people offer themselves is comparatively short, and recruiting campaigns must go on and on. Young men who offer themselves at the moment must enjoy a full life. They have facilities to improve their education or to learn a trade if they have an inclination for that type of adult education. There is recognition all round that the Army are providing an improvement at all levels of education from the officer cadre down to the recruit.

Not many people mention the contribution made by the second line reserve. Adequate recognition is not given to the contribution made by members of the FCA. They are always available. I was very pleased to hear the Opposition spokesman refer at length to the valuable contribution made by the young men who have been available over the years. The FCA give their services to more than annual training. They are available for training on our ranges and for training on manoeuvres. They guard vital installations within the State and occasionally give a well-deserved rest to our men in the national Army.

In the years ahead when the Minister is preparing his Estimate I should like to see greater recognition for the valuable service given by our volunteers in the FCA. I understand that on this occasion he has not done so because the functions of the FCA within our Army are engaging his attention and that of GHQ and that, in the not too distant future, there will be a new role for the FCA.

In 1946 they were integrated with the regular Army. At present our battalions, our divisions, our brigades are manned by the FCA. Whether in the artillery corps or the infantry corps, or in any area within our Army, the men of the FCA have absorbed their training, I would say, much more quickly than the men of the regular Army. I have experience of this and I think the Army appreciate it. In the years ahead, while we should cultivate and encourage membership within the areas in which they live, of necessity one has to go to barracks to work with one's platoon or one's company in order to be able to display on the ground what military training can achieve.

Over the years we have had the problem that the unattractive uniform worn by members of the FCA has not been redesigned. The Minister should give serious thought to that. In the middle seventies it is necessary to have a more attractive uniform. There is also a need to provide a second uniform. Men go out on manoeuvres and they often have to travel long distances to their base or their home without a change of protective clothing. During the emergency in the forties we had some ground sheets. They seem to be gone out of fashion in the Army now. We could usefully consider improving the clothing available to the FCA and make it much more attractive by redesigning it and improving its standard.

It was good news for the members of the Old IRA to learn that they will be accepted in St. Bricin's Hospital for treatment and for minor surgery. As time goes on, the tendency may be to forget the contribution they made to the formation of the State. They will appreciate the Minister's interest in them. I hope they will avail of this clinic at St. Bricin's Hospital. I trust the details of the scheme will be made available as soon as possible for the benefit of those entitled to the scheme.

Is this the appropriate time to refer to the Old IRA in receipt of special allowances? Has the Minister any power to reduce the means test to the same level as that which operates in the case of old age pensioners? The latter can have an income of £6 a week whereas special allowance recipients are caught if they have an income of over £25 a year. This anomaly should be corrected.

One must pay tribute to our fisheries protection service. There is, of course, need to provide a more adequate protection service. It is well known that French fishing boats fish in our coastal waters and, if something is not done, serious loss will result to our economy. We know that our protection service cannot be everywhere and it is heartening to note that the Minister is making provision to improve this service.

The helicopter service is generally availed of where patients have to be transferred for specialist attention to Dublin hospitals and where accidents occur. This service should be extended. Those engaged in it are certainly very skilled. When the finances become available I hope the service will be improved still further.

The Minister appreciated the necessity for giving additional allowances to men on Border duty. For years those men were serving on the Border without any proper recognition of the service they were giving. One has to appreciate the discipline of these men. There should be no anomaly in pay as between our Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána. The standard of discipline is remarkably high and we know we can place the utmost reliance in these men because of that discipline. We are at the moment in what might be described as an emergency situation. That does not seem to be appreciated by people generally. It is the responsibility of the Government and the Minister to ensure that adequate steps are taken to preserve the peace. Exceptional strains are being placed on our security forces at all levels and there should be a proper recognition of those strains.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing my appreciation of the Minister's cordial approach to all Members. The new image he has created in regard to our Army is one which will have a lasting effect on morale. I hope the men in the Army at the moment look to the men of the past who distinguished themselves on courses in both Britain and the United States of America. I shall not mention names but we have still with us some of the finest military brains in the world. That is something of which we are very proud. The same opportunities should be given to their successors to develop their particular abilities and raise themselves to the heights of the great soldiers of the past.

Mr. Meaney

The Minister this morning asked this House for a sum of close on £49 million. This may seem a great deal of money to run our Defence Forces and ensure the security of the State but, allowing for inflation, this sum represents no increase of any kind in real money values. This year the figure is £48,900,000 but if one has regard to the fact that last year was only a nine-month financial one, one could add a third to last year's figure which would bring it to almost £42 million. In addition there was inflation at a rate of almost 20 per cent and if this were allowed for the £31 million should be increased to more than £50 million this year. However, that amount is not being asked for. It is obvious that there has been much pruning in the Department. This will mean that many of the improvements promised will not be carried out. We all appreciate and are proud of our Army. We support them in the tough role they must play but this cutting back is not good enough.

All we can expect by way of improvement or extension is the erection of the two new barracks of which the Minister has spoken while quarters which are badly in need of repair work will not be attended to. I would have been happy to hear the Minister asking for another £8 million. The Minister may say that the amount being sought is a record one. The cost of running the Army is now almost £1 million a week but this is not a huge amount of money where the security of the State is concerned. We should not be afraid to vote more money where this is necessary for security. In order to maintain even the present standard a further £6 million or so would have been required and that would not allow for any improvement. The pruning has occurred from the Department of Finance down along the line.

The Minister has told us that, with the exception of the war years, the strength of our permanent Defence Force is greater now than ever before. I have no wish to be too critical of the Department but would point out that while there was a total increase of 646 which included all ranks——

Mr. Donegan

That is 646 nett. Recruitment during the year totalled 2,500.

Mr. Meaney

——the majority of those recruited were in the officer category. The increase in the number in the other categories was 15. There must be something wrong when no more than that number enlisted. Perhaps the Minister will embark on another recruiting campaign. We are experiencing a high level of unemployment and in such a situation it should not be too difficult to interest people in the Army. There must be many young men interested in joining the Army at least for a few years. The Minister must appeal to such people to enlist.

I often wonder what kind of army we want. Perhaps we are on the right road in this regard. The Minister is aiming at a stength of, perhaps, 15,000 to 17,000 in the permanent Defence Force. We shall not be going to war with other nations but we must ensure the security of our own shore. As a small nation there would be no point in our having an Army of, say, 30,000 or 40,000 because the big nations control what happens and in wars among themselves the voice of a small nation would not be listened to.

Members of our Army have excelled in peace-keeping missions in various parts of the world but it is very disappointing to note that the UN have not met their commitment fully in regard to payment in respect of our troops who served in Cyprus. There is not a great deal of money outstanding but it is not right that there should be any due still. It is time that the smaller nations were appreciated by the bigger ones. While the bigger nations continue to supply arms to various sides in conflicts they are prepared to allow the smaller countries to embark on peace-keeping missions and to risk the lives of their men. I am aware that there never was any difficulty in recruiting volunteers for peace-keeping missions abroad. Perhaps this is because of a desire on the part of some personnel to go to these far-off places. I understand that the Minister is anxious, as are most of us, that our troops go to the Middle-East. However, before troops are sent to that part of the world our Minister should request the Minister for Foreign Affairs to indicate that we are not happy about our troops being sent to help separate the Arabs and the Israelis while the big nations continue to supply arms to the sides in conflict. At any rate, every effort should be made to ensure that our forces who go abroad are protected as far as possible.

The Minister referred in detail to the Army building programme. Much was heard last year, too, in this regard but it is my opinion that apart from the two new barracks very little else will be done. Last year I suggested to the Minister that there be much more consultation between the Department and the county and city councils in places where Army barracks are situated. Members of county councils—I am thinking of one place in particular—do not seem to make allowance for the presence of the Army in their areas. I wonder whether the Department inform local authorities as to the number of personnel who are likely to be in a barracks during the forthcoming six or eight years or how many would need housing. If local authorities had this information they could arrange for the building of the necessary houses.

I refer again, as I have done on many other occasions, to the scandalous way in which we treat survivors of the War of Independence. Almost a year ago the Minister promised to approach the Minister for Finance regarding the means test which applies in respect of special allowances for these people. Deputy Taylor made a case for them today. Many of these unfortunate people get no allowance for the service they gave to their country. As we are told in the Minister's brief, their numbers are decreasing year by year. We are informed that special allowances are being paid to 10,000 people and that the average allowed is £194 a year. This does not involve a great amount, perhaps about £500,000 a year.

Mr. Donegan

The figure is £2 million.

Mr. Meaney

I trust that the Minister will be able to tell us that this means test is being abolished so that every survivor, regardless of income, will get at least £5 a week. The means test could start after telling those people that for the service they gave to the country this generation was thankful and they would receive £5. The means test could be applied over that figure. It is wrong to have a means test for the old age pensioner and another means test when one applies for the special allowance for survivors of the War of Independence, 1916 to 1921. I am sure the Minister for Finance would not refuse to sanction the paltry sum needed to give these people something decent.

Debate adjourned.