Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Apr 1975

Vol. 279 No. 11

Trade Union Bill, 1974: From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider an amendment from the Seanad.

Minister for Labour (Mr. M. O'Leary)

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1:

In page 4, before section 9, the following new section inserted:

9.— Where, in the case of a body of persons which is a trade union under the law of another country and has its headquarters control situated in that country, a majority of the members of that body who are resident in the area comprising the State and Northern Ireland so decide, the members of that body who are so resident may, in accordance with this Act, amalgamate with or transfer their engagements to another trade union and shall, from the making of such a decision. be a trade union for the purpose of section 2.

The effect of this amendment would be to permit the 32-county membership of a British-based union, if they so wished, to amalgamate or transfer their engagements. The Bill, as drafted and as we had it before this House, facilitates the amalgamation of two Irish unions or the amalgamation of an Irish union with a British-based union but would make it next to impossible for the Irish branch of a British-based union to amalgamate with another Irish union or with another Irish branch of a British-based union. We believe that the Bill as it stands, on a 32-county basis, could be improved to permit the amalgamation of Irish members living in Ireland wherever the headquarters of their parent union might be. Certain legal and constitutional difficulties as well as consultation difficulties prevented us including this in the Bill before this House. We have now included it to facilitate the possibility of Irish unions amalgamating with branches of British unions or branches of British unions amalgamating with other Irish unions with headquarters in Ireland.

Under the Bill, as drafted, if an Irish branch of a British-based union wished to amalgamate with another trade union, whether Irish or British-based, a majority vote of all members of that union resident in the State, Northern Ireland and Britain, possibly aggregating to millions of members, would be necessary to enable the amalgamation to take place. That would mean that it would be very difficult to achieve. The amendment seeks to overcome this problem by providing that the 32-county membership of a British-based union may amalgamate or transfer their engagements. That is the purpose of the amendment—to facilitate Irish members coming together with other Irish members wherever the constitutional headquarters of the parent organisation may be.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

On behalf of this party I welcome and support this amendment. It now appears that the Trade Union Bill would be inadequate legislation without this amendment. It gives the opportunity to the Irish members—meaning 32-county Irish members-to decide their own destiny within the structure of a British-based union. It is important to recognise the 32-county nature of our union structure and legislate to maintain it and it is also important that this opportunity be given to Irish members of a British-based union who are more familiar with the economic and social situation existing in our own community to decide on their future. It is probably fair to mention the record of our Irish-based unions, particularly the major ones which are Irish-based, and their responsible approach to the economic growth and development of the country. I should like to see this amendment as an encouragement rather than just a facility. I appreciate that the Minister would probably have difficulty in introducing legislation directed so that members of a British-based union rather than become members of another British-based union in this country, would be encouraged or directed into an Irish-based union. I appreciate there are probably constitutional or legal difficulties in this respect but I would welcome any way in which such a development could be encouraged. It is important, especially at present, that our economic development should be for the most part guided by groups of people working from an Irish base whose primary concern would be the growth of the Irish economy and concern for it, groups which would not be directed from abroad by headquarters abroad.

It appears to me that this section is fundamental to a Bill to improve trade union legislation. It is rather surprising this provision was not already included in the Bill. One would imagine those concerned would have taken into account the views of trade unions in this regard. However, I am glad it is now being made part of the Bill because it is fundamental to it.

I welcome the amendment for the reasons stated. I would prefer to see some inducement, encouragement or enticement in the amendment so that in the event of an amalgamation of that nature they will be encouraged to amalgamate with an Irish union. If it is possible within the framework to give such encouragement, in my view, that is something that the Minister for Labour in an Irish Government should consider seriously.

In the past, as our links with Britain were of a historical nature, it was only natural that many of our trade unions would be joined with the British-based unions. I do not wish to decry membership of such unions because they too have played their part in our economic development. Our aim in future should be, particularly in a European context, to look on Ireland as a unit. Irish trade union legislators and trade union officials have done an excellent job. They have played their part and shown that they can hold their own with any trade union official of any country. At this stage of our economic development I hope the Minister will consider ways and means of encouraging amalgamations with Irish unions. I use the word "encouraging" for the reasons stated. I can appreciate that there may be difficulties where it cannot be made compulsory but, in my opinion, some form of encouragement would be very welcome.

Mr. Dowling

I welcome this amendment. In doing so I would like to go back to the Second Stage debate. I indicated then that an effort should be made to bring about a situation such as this. I said that institutional freedom, in conjunction with political freedom, was important. Political freedom without institutional freedom is of no value because the dictates could come from outside. The Minister told us he did not think this could be done. I am very glad to see that he, his Department and the trade union movement have moved along those lines.

This House accepted our views in relation to the decision-making executives being Irish-based. I am not referring only to British unions but to all foreign unions. We can have a multiplicity of situations because of our entry to the EEC, some visible and some invisible. Nevertheless, I compliment the Minister on this movement towards our suggestion on Second Stage and our amendment on Committee Stage. Of course, the Minister brought in his amendments which superseded ours and we were glad to support them. On this occasion I am glad to support this amendment. We have gone a long way towards solving the problem which existed in the minds of many trade unionists over the years that there was and could be dictation from outside forces on trade union affairs and decisions by people who had vested interests in certain fields.

The position in relation to mergers is not as satisfactory as one would wish. Nevertheless, under this Bill a substantial move forward has taken place. Again I would like to compliment the Minister and the trade union movement. One man in the trade union movement who has spoken about this loud and clear for some considerable time is Mr. Denis Larkin, leader of the Workers' Union of Ireland. He made many contributions seeking this break and we are very pleased to be associated with it.

It is only proper that Irishmen should have the right to make their own decisions in their own way. We do not want dictation from outside. Our trade union officials and organisations are as efficient and effective as those in any other country. We have our problems but so have they. We have problems in our trade union movement. I do not agree with every aspect of policy of the trade union movement. We feel the political levy would be an impediment towards amalgamation and mergers, because some people might have deep-rooted convictions in that respect. I hoped this Bill would have eliminated all the existing problems and irritations and be a Bill of which we could all be proud.

While the Minister has met us to a large degree in many of the amendments he put forward, nevertheless there are still areas where these irritations exist. I hope the day is not too far distant when they will disappear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am anxious that the Deputy does not deviate from the amendment under discussion.

Mr. Dowling

I accept the Chair's ruling. There are ever-changing conditions taking place in the trade union movement. It is important that we have the facilities to meet the modern needs of members. The educational facilities which must follow from mergers are an important factor. Larger trade unions can offer their members educational, social and other facilities. The Irish Transport and General Workers' Union are in a very creditable situation because they offer assistance to their members by way of educational, social and other facilities. They give a greater degree of assistance to their members than many larger unions in England and elsewhere. We have a progressive outlook and progressive leaders. I do not always agree with what they say. We could have the greatest third force necessary and desirable in a country such as ours, independent of politics. Unfortunately, as I said, there are problems and pressures which we will have to examine at a later stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the amendment.

Mr. Dowling

This Bill is an effort to meet the present situation. As Deputy G. Fitzgerald said, this party supports the change in attitude to the amendments since the Bill was introduced. We welcome this Bill and hope it will be the success the Minister anticipated. A substantial contribution has been made in this House to the evolvement of mergers and take-overs. I, as a trade unionist, and my col leagues as party members will do everything to ensure that there will be full co-operation. When possible I will influence people who are thinking in terms of mergers so that Irishmen can have a voice in relation to their own affairs. The Minister indicated on Second Stage that this was not possible. However, we pursued the matter on Committee Stage and we are happy to accept this amendment. I am glad the Minister has been advised this is the proper course to take.

Mr. Moore

I wish to add my voice to that of Deputy Gene Fitzgerald, our spokesman on labour matters, and that of Deputy Dowling in welcoming this amendment. I do not want to take any credit from the Minister but I want to state that Deputy Dowling very strongly urged this line of action. At the same time I want to thank the Minister for taking heed of the pleadings made by this side of the House. I realise this is a most sensitive area as anything which affects North and South of the country is.

This is a tremendous step forward and one which must win universal support in trade union and other circles. I do not want to read any more into it than what is in the amendment which gives Irish men and women an opportunity which they did not have in regard to amalgamations of trade unions. It is also a step nearer the time when the trade union movement in Ireland will be autonomous so that when the great amalgamation takes place the voice of Irish trade union people will come from this part of the country or when we are united from any part of the country.

I remember feeling very humiliated some years ago when some members who allegedly stepped out of line by taking a certain political action were summoned to attend a hearing in London by an English trade union. They did not go but, nevertheless, the fact that a writ was issued to these men was totally unacceptable to us. Now we have an amendment in the Bill which will be regarded as a major step forward. I would like to join with Deputy Dowling in paying tribute to men like Mr. Denis Larkin, who advocated the step and also, to go back a few years, to a member of the Seanad, the late Senator Jimmy Dunne who was one of the visionaries of the trade union movement who advocated these steps. I feel we are reaching a far better atmosphere as regards the trade unions which are very powerful when we have the national parliament meeting the wishes of practically every Irish member of a trade union. This is something this side of the House have advocated. I hope the Minister will not leave it there.

I hope this Bill is publicised to the very fullest extent because we pass much legislation which goes on the Statute Book and its effects may not be generally known. The Minister has a fairly good publicity arm so I hope he informs all trade union members of the passing of this Bill and this very important amendment. I look forward to the day when he brings in a really comprehensive trade union Bill and when, as a result of the present Bill, he will be able to give us a new charter in this field. Now that we are in Europe and are willing to co-operate with other European trade unions, we should do the same as the trade unions of the other eight nations who jealously guard their individuality. This Bill and this amendment will enable the trade union movement in Ireland to become much stronger and to become one of the leading trade union movements in the nine members of the EEC. The Minister, as Deputy Fitzgerald stated, will always have the full co-operation of this side of the House when we see progressive legislation introduced.

Mr. Cunningham

I want to welcome this amendment from the Seanad and also welcome the Minister's acceptance of it. As one in whose constituency there are many workers who work in Northern Ireland and also workers from Northern Ireland who work in Donegal, I feel this is something which will be appreciated by trade union members because it is looking at Ireland in a 32-county context. This is as it should be in the context of a nine-country European community. Workers in Northern Ireland have been members of Dublin-based trade unions and workers from Donegal, who work in Northern Ireland, have been members of British-based trade unions so this Bill will lead to the time when in a 32-county context we will have a strong trade union movement representative of all the workers in this island.

Mr. Callanan

I wish to congratulate the Minister on having the common sense to accept this amendment. He is prepared to listen and if there is anything good he is prepared to accept it. Some Ministers, when they bring in a Bill, are not prepared to accept anything except their own view. Deputy Dowling pressed this matter very strongly and I believe it has improved the Bill. I also want to give credit to the Minister for listening to the views expressed by this side of the House and where there was any merit in our amendments he was prepared to accept them.

Mr. M. O'Leary

I want to thank Deputies for their comments on this amendment. It is true that certain suggestions along these lines were made by Deputy Dowling, Deputy Fitzgerald and others during Committee Stage. I was not unmindful of the things they said but my main problem was the possibility of achieving this both on the legal advice available to me and the consultations which were going on with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

I believe the passage of any legislation through the House should, as much as possible, be a creative exercise whereby as it goes through the House we seek to improve it where there is any means of doing so. It is a misreading of the importance of both Houses of the Oireachtas to do otherwise. I did not delay the introduction of the original Bill, because of complicated consultation which had to be undertaken in the Attorney General's Office and the constant consultations with the Irish trade unions, in either House of the Oireachtas until we could include the amendment. I thought it better to proceed and continue with the consultations and discussions in the intervening period.

Deputy Fitzgerald mentioned the desirability of directing and guiding union members into Irish unions. This is a very difficult and, perhaps, not too desirable a course to adopt. The relationship of the legislators to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is not one of guiding and directing; our whole approach to legislation in this area is to help towards agreement.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I thought "encouraging" was the word that might be used.

Mr. M. O'Leary

I take the Deputy's point, but we must be careful to preserve this relationship of help and assistance because to do otherwise would be counter-productive. Although we have the legal means to give union members who wish to avail of it the opportunity of coming together, there is scant possibility of this taking place if union members in the North carry about a stereotyped image of union members in the South. It must not be forgotten that the term "Irish worker" includes loyalists, and unless that message goes home in the South there can be little progress on this kind of amendment. Very often the impression is given that Irish workers are all Roman Catholics and Republicans. This, of course, is not true. It is instructive to note that the organisation which has preserved unity in the country, and I refer to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, have preserved it on a 32-county basis by tolerance for the various political views of their constituent unions and members. The constant identification of the trade union movement down here with a particular form of political unity of the entire island will not facilitate the coming together of workers North and South. We should appreciate that Irish workers include loyalists as well as those of a different political view and tradition.

Mr. Moore

We have always taken that attitude.

Mr. M. O'Leary

I am only making the point that here we have a legal means whereby union members may come together, but there will be no coming together where there is a strident declaration of political opinions or if the feeling is prevalent among the majority of union members in the North that we are concerned——

Mr. Cunningham

It is better not to raise these hares.

Mr. M. O'Leary

——that there is no place for loyalists in the trade union movement. As I say, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have preserved unity in a 32-county framework only by a scrupulous respect for the varying political opinions of their members, by refusing to ram the nationalist opinions of members in the South into the constitution of that all-Ireland organisation.

Mr. Wilson

That is true, but there was an attempt to break that unity.

Mr. M. O'Leary

I hope the trade unions will avail of the facilities provided in the Bill. There is the need to rationalise their structure, which they appreciate themselves. At present an ILO survey is proceeding in the trade union movement. We hope to see the results of that survey very soon and that the results of that survey will enable the trade union movement to make further plans for its own better organisation.

Again, I wish to thank the Deputies for their comments on this amendment. This legislation has had the benefit of the views of all sides in the House, and we have sought to harmonise those views in the various sections where improvements could be made. However, as I said at the outset, legislation in this area is a product of consultation. We cannot, either as a Government or as an Oireachtas, seek to impose our views on free association of citizens like trade unions. Under our Constitution the right of free association is guaranteed to all citizens.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

May I ask what is the procedure to be adopted in relation to this amendment?

An Ceann Comhairle

The procedure is that we deal only with this amendment. We pass it or decline to pass it, and we inform the Seanad accordingly. The Deputy will appreciate that this Bill has already passed through all Stages in the Dáil, and we are now confined to debating the amendment and informing the Seanad of the outcome.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

We are debating the amendment on Committee Stage and, therefore, we can speak on it again if we wish?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, we are in Committee and you may speak again.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I thank the Minister for his observations, and he can rest assured that any legislation affecting his Department which helps to rationalise the trade union movement will always have the support of this party, the progressive party in this country, the party who have been responsible for our economic and industrial growth and job creation. This party have always believed in the 32-county structure of the trade union movement which gave opportunity to Irishmen of all classes, creeds and denominations. Many of our Ministers are too prone to talk about the different classes of people that constitute the population of our island. When discussing such an amendment as this which gives the opportunity to members, north and south, to take a decision which will affect their own destiny within the trade union movement, it is enough for any Member of this House to say that this right is embodied within the Act for all people. Perhaps, in the past difficulties were created by the existence of the different denominations within the trade union movement but the less such a situation is highlighted the better is the opportunity for goodwill within the movement and for the progress that we all wish for so dearly.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has given a lot of latitude in respect of a widening of the discussion. This morning Standing Orders oblige us to deal only with this Seanad amendment. Therefore, I cannot allow a widening of the debate or a reference back to what the Bill contains.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I am referring to a majority of members of the trade union movement who are resident in the area comprising this State and Northern Ireland. Forgive me if I have gone outside the scope of the amendment but if I have done so it was in the interest of the trade union movement generally. It should be sufficient for any Member of this House to realise that there are all classes and creeds within the trade union movement and that participation with each other should be encouraged with a view towards other developments which I shall not elaborate on now.

I got the impression that a certain type of lecture was being delivered across the House. This was not merited. Bodies such as the trade union movement which have a 32-County structure have always had my greatest admiration and support. There are a number of sporting bodies that have succeeded admirably in bridging denominational gaps. Any such involvement on the part of trade unions or business could lead only to a better Ireland. This view has always been held by this party.

As a businessman and before becoming involved in politics, I rarely wished to read what was contained in Bills being introduced and I think that would be the attitude of most people not concerned directly with legislation. Therefore, I should like the Minister to set out in simple language the basic terms of the Bill. I am not advocating elaborate day-to-day advertising but I would recommend that, if possible, the main points of the Bill be published in some of the Department's periodicals or in the various trade union magazines. This would give trade union members the opportunity of seeking further information on the legislation, if they so wished.

Mr. Callanan

I rise to express my disappointment with the Minister's reference to the political views or affiliations of trade union members. I have worked with voluntary organisations that had occasion to cross the Border from time to time but, regardless of which part of Ireland we came from, we were merely Irishmen and there was never any question as to what were the views of anybody concerned. I do not consider it right that the Minister should introduce this question of political affiliation. Trade unionism is about people whose views may differ widely coming together to discuss their own business. That is why I am sorry the Minister introduced this red herring. If anybody is claiming to own the trade union movement, it is the Labour Party but there are people within the trade union movement who do not support any political party. They are concerned only with ensuring that the workers get a fair crack of the whip.

It would be a bad day's work if it were to go out from this debate that there was a danger in this Bill of its not being capable of being put into practice because of the differing views of the people who constitute the trade union movement both in the North and in the South. We are dealing here with the right of workers.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are dealing with the amendment from the Seanad.

Mr. Callanan

It was the Minister who introduced this subject and I am only endeavouring to emphasise its irrelevancy. Whether a trade union member be a loyalist or a republican is a matter of indifference and to say otherwise would be to defeat the purpose of the Bill.

Mr. Cunningham

As a trade unionist, I am disappointed that the Minister should introduce a political element into the Bill. In replying to Deputy Fitzgerald the Minister said rightly that even to encourage unionists to do certain things might be a bit strong. However, his statement is a lecture to unions to the effect that they must respect the views of loyalist workers. Is this necessary? I do not know why the Minister should have said it. Union members are noted for their respect for all political and, indeed, religious opinions. Therefore, this statement of the Minister's was unnecessary and I am disappointed that he introduced the subject. The trade union movement is one organisation that does not require any lecture on the rights of workers, whether they be human, political or religious rights.

Mr. Moore

I agree with Deputy Cunningham that the Minister could well have omitted his remarks about the political aspects of a trade union. I should like the Minister to tell me whether, after this Bill has been passed, it goes to the ILO. In other words, will it be given any international recognition? Do we have to register?

Mr. M. O'Leary

No.

Mr. Moore

If we had to it would another good place to publicise the matter. In regard to the Minister's remarks concerning unity I should like to state that we never refused recognition to the Congress of Trade Unions but it was only in the last eight years that the former Stormont Government recognised the congress after trojan work had been done by a great northerner, Lord O'Neill. That man never got the credit he deserved for his part in having the Congress of Trade Unions recognised in the North. If one read his autobiography one would appreciate the difficult time he had in having a simple thing approved such as the recognition of the congress. That was a major step forward.

While Lord O'Neill only saw the need for this recognition in 1965 we had seen the need for it all the time. If we followed Larkin and Connolly we would realise that they did not want unity just as a political mark. They wanted unity because it would have made the trade union movement more powerful and effective. Lord O'Neill saw the same thing and he wanted industrial peace there. We always recognised that the definition of an Irish worker was a person working in Ireland, whether he was in Derry or Cork. Despite all our faults this is one matter we cannot be faulted on. We have always welcomed the worker from Queen's Island or anywhere else.

An Ceann Comhairle

I regret to have to interrupt the Deputy but I want the House to keep foremost in their minds the main issue before us, the amendment from the Seanad which is specific and very confined. We are now having a departure from the amendment before us.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I should like to add that the Chair cannot lay the charge on this side of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Be that as it may the Chair must ensure that we deal specifically with the matter before us this morning.

Mr. Moore

I appreciate the position of the Chair but we did not start this trend this morning. I should like to emphasise, in order to counteract the remarks of the Minister, to the people of the North who have always recognised their Irishness in this aspect, that we welcome them and we look forward to their co-operation in every aspect. They will not find us wanting in this matter. I discussed this matter with the ordinary working people in the North and I pointed out that I did not want unity to be an end in itself. I want to make the trade union movement more effective. I should like to praise Lord O'Neill for the steps he took to get recognition in the North of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Successive Governments here always recognised that body.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Deputies opposite may be over-sensitive. I was not addressing any lecture to them; I was simply talking about how this section may be most effective in practice. After all, this House is passing this amendment and we would hope that the amendment would facilitate a greater coming together in an Irish union structure of workers with differing political views. To make this truly effective we must be very sensitive on the conditions for its success. We hope that this amendment will have its beneficial effects elsewhere. I was not criticising any members of the Opposition who took part in the debate; I was talking about conditions necessary for its success especially when one considers that it is coming from the Houses of the Oireachtas.

If it is to succeed we must not confuse political unity with trade union unity. If we fall for this confusion it does not serve the cause of either. Introducing professions of political unity in the trade union context endangers the co-operation so dearly won on a 32-county basis between the trade unions. The Congress of Trade Unions are aware that the majority of trade unions in Northern Ireland do not share the views of the majority of members in the Twenty-six Counties on the desirability of political unity. If the Congress in the 32-county context were to come down on one side or the other of this political debate the present congress organisation would be endangered in their 32-county aspect.

Since the amendment is going through this House it behoves all of us to see that we address our remarks to strengthening the unity of the trade union movement. It is in that spirit that I appreciate the way this House approached this section which requires the assent of those whom it is designed to serve. That assent will be won only by the exercise of discipline and constraint in our remarks in the political sphere, of unity of a political kind.

The necessity for information on this section and its effect being made available to union members was mentioned by Deputies Fitzgerald and Cunningham. Congress have drawn up an explanatory leaflet which I looked at. To me it appears clear cut and simple and congress are distributing this to their constituent union members. In my view that will suffice in putting the information across adequately. The relationship of the Legislature with unions is one, in so far as possible, of meeting their wishes in the sphere of trade union law. I have never been of the opinion that the Houses of the Oireachtas in our system can, without consultation, bring in what may appear to be a wonderful plan for the trade union movement but not a plan which meets with their assent or accords with their views on how their organisation should be rearranged. The more healthy way forward and the one which better ensures their support and co-operation is to have consultation with them and based on that consultation an improvement in the legislation before the House.

Before this Bill the position was that trade union legislation in this area was a positive impediment to the coming together of trade unions. We have removed that impediment but we have done no more than that. When we pass the amendment we will have removed the impediment which prevented Irishmen, north and south, with a will to come together—that is the important thing—from doing so. That amendment will only be effective where the union members coming together have no suspicion or need to fear that their coming together in a trade union context necessarily means any surrender of their political attitudes. Deputies will appreciate that if we have a model, as we have in the Congress of Trade Unions, of a working unity over the entire country that must not be endangered. We have had a working unity, a unity of working people north and south over the years and that is a precious form of unity in an island which has few experiences of it in any sphere.

Mr. Dowling

I was amazed when the Minister replied earlier. I do not think the words we heard were the views of Deputy Michael O'Leary, the Minister for Labour. I would say the words were inspired and passed on by somebody else, possibly somebody not a Member of this House. Up to now the Minister has been careful to protect this unity within the trade union movement. When we speak of the trade union movement we mean everybody. Over the years it was our view that a strong and viable congress was necessary to ensure the progressive development of the trade union movement. The Minister singled out one group of workers. I shall not repeat it because to place it on the record again and again would suggest that there is some situation here that might isolate a certain section of workers. These are brother trade unionists, all within the one group.

It was rather regrettable that a certain section of workers was singled out whose political and other views might be different from ours in this House. Everyone understands that, just as the trade union in the North understands the situation, but, nevertheless they all come together in congress to discuss problems affecting workers as a whole. This is very important. It is rather regrettable that such mention was made here. The Minister knows the group to whom I am referring. I shall not write it into the record again. I hope the Press will disregard the reference made by the Minister because publication of it could do substantial damage to the Bill and to the trade union movement in general. While we here and people in the North and elsewhere have political differences, we have to agree to disagree when it comes down to basic and fundamental matters such as the trade union movement, which embraces workers and their problems as distinct from politics and the political arm of political parties. Therefore, I would hope that neither religion nor politics would be referred to in this debate. Such reference can do irreparable harm to the Bill and to our whole attitude in relation to what we hope to achieve.

I am quite positive that Irish workers in general, irrespective of their religious or political convictions, understand fully the necessity and desirability of having decision making bodies within Ireland in relation to their problems in Ireland. This is common to all trade unions. I speak to trade unions from the North and from the South and sometimes you find bad trade unions in the South just as you do elsewhere. We have a common desire to rectify within our own congress our own problems in relation to the affairs of workers, the improvement of conditions and to ensure that we have a strong, viable organisation. I do not think that there was ever a suggestion from people outside that we were trying to dominate them in any way. They play their part fully and well. Members in the North have been presidents of our congress here and have played a very credible part in the development of the trade union organisation.

The singling out of any group was fatal on this occasion. I am positive that the words spoken by the Minister were not a projection of his personal viewpoint. Somebody has passed him somewhere along the line a few words to pump into the situation here. It is rather regrettable that he rose to that bait. I do not think he has done justice to the House or to himself. I think it was somebody outside. I do not think people in the Minister's own Department would have advised him on that score. They are too responsible. They fully understand the problems and the meaning of the situation in relation to legislation and they know what the desired effect is, that we have a common bond as trade unionists, wherever we work, in ensuring our own betterment. If there can be a question of adjustment within the trade union movement as a whole, I do not think that anyone has any problem. When presidents are elected from a particular sector of the country, be it North or South, there is no objection on the part of trade unions either North or South. It has been the common desire and the common purpose so to strengthen congress as to make it the viable institution it deserves to be, with the absolute support of trade unions North and South working for the common good of Irish workers North and South or in the areas where they have control.

I would hope, in the first instance, that the Press would disregard the reference that has been made because, if it gets publicity, irreparable damage can be done. I am sure the Minister did not mean it in the way it came across. I am quite positive that they do not represent his personal views. If he was prompted by any outside group to make this statement, it is further regrettable. I do not know how it came about because the Minister has been most careful in dealing with the problem and in guiding us and in guiding me in relation to the discussion that took place on various sections to ensure that we kept within reasonable bounds and that there was no suggestion whatsoever that any sector would be pin-pointed in relation to the development of the organisation.

I would hope that there will be no further references or attempts made to isolate any particular group as having different views in relation to the common desire for the good of the trade union organisation and that political or religious matters would not be a factor. They have not been a factor up to now and I do not think they will be in future. If we continue to pursue a course where we will pinpoint a particular group on occasion here and write it into legislation and into the record of the House, it will be a bad day for the unity of the trade union movement.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald rose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Everybody has spoken twice. Standing Orders are that we deal with the amendment from the Seanad only.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I asked the Ceann Comhairle for guidance and he told me that we had the freedom to speak that we would have on Committee Stage of a Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is not Committee Stage of the Bill. This is an amendment from the Seanad.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

The Ceann Comhairle said to me that we had the right to speak that we would have on Committee Stage. In fact, I asked him for guidance because I was not sure. I just want to make a very brief point and I would ask your indulgence.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must confine ourselves to the amendment which came from the Seanad.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald

I have spoken on nothing else. I welcome what the Minister had to say about the union issuing this broadsheet or this information sheet to its members. That is certainly one aspect of publicity that I mentioned. It should not be solely confined to union members as such. There should be an effort made in the Department through some publication by the Department to widen that advertising somewhat.

The Minister's lapse was disappointing. His apology to Members of the House regarding over-sensitivity was unecessary. We fully realise that he was not lecturing to us. The people listening this morning understand that he was lecturing to trade unions and to trade union members. We thought this to be an unnecessary exercise by any Member of the House.

This amendment covers all trade unions comprised of members in this State and in Northern Ireland. There is no qualification to that membership. They can come from any group or any walk in life. Let us as Members of this House dealing with trade union regulation, dealing with an amendment to the Trade Union Bill, 1974 or, indeed, dealing with any worker or any trade union regulation, primarily concern ourselves with the rights and conditions of workers. It is, of course, very welcome that these workers come from places as far apart as Cork and Kerry, as Deputy Moore or some other Deputy said. This makes it all the more desirable to us. Let us refer to them as trade union members, again emphasising from all walks of life. There is no necessity for me or any other Member of this House to lecture to trade union members that somebody is acceptable or somebody must be accepted. That is not necessary for any Irishman.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Let me say very briefly that, of course, I was not lecturing to the trade unions or trade unionists who, after all, are the people who brought about unity of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. They are in no need of lectures from me or anybody else. I was simply pointing out certain requirements that must be met in our general attitudes and expressions in political areas if this amendment is to be successful. Simply because it is being passed through a House of the Oireachtas it is necessary to make that point. That is the only point I wish to make, that there should be that general approach on all our parts if the amendment is to succeed. It must not be forgotten that in the Twenty-six Counties we have many trade union members who would regard themselves—this is on the point about whether Irish trade unionists would like to be in Irish unions and Deputy Dowling knows as well as I that there are many such trade unionists in this part of the country—as politically completely orthodox but who prefer to remain in membership of unions with head offices in Britain. That is an extraordinary paradox but it exists around the country. Men who would certainly regard themselves as very high up in the patriotic league insist on remaining members of unions with head offices in Britain. We all know that it happens. It happens in Cork. Kerry and elsewhere. There is this paradox of Irishmen wishing to retain their membership of unions with head offices in Britain and who would resist very strenuously, indeed, any decision of this Oireachtas, any legislation passed here, which would compel them to give over their membership of such British-based unions. It is that kind of paradox and situation Members of the House would need to bear in mind when we speak about the possibility of the effectiveness of this or any other amendment of this legislation.

One would need to appreciate that there will be a long road ahead of us in ensuring that this amendment assists in the achievement of the result that all spokesmen on this debate would like to bring about, that is, a trade union movement, and I believe that the best form of trade union for Irish workers is one based in Ireland, in the Thirty-two Counties, which gives them service in this island, adequately staffed. I believe that can be brought about only by the trade union movement itself, reorganising itself, drawing up plans, and they are in the course of doing that. But we do not bring that possibility nearer by pretending that political problems do not exist. The main task before us is to ensure that we gain support for the kind of amendment we have had before the House this morning.

Mr. Callanan

In his last statement the Minister has proved what I said. What he has been saying is irrelevant because there are people in this country who are in British trade unions and who would not leave them and who would lecture one on their honour of James Connolly. This means that any mention of it is irrelevant because people of differing views exist in all trade unions. Trade unionism is a matter of doing one's business, not airing any political opinions one may hold. That is the reason I do not think it should be brought up here at all. One could not expect—and we do not expect— people in Belfast to forget their past. I do not think anybody should come in here and suggest that any trade unionist should forget the past or the part the trade union movement played in the past. We are conducting business here and not talking about it.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A message will be sent to Seanad Éireann accordingly.