asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries why he has limited the areas which will benefit under the disadvantaged areas scheme, thereby putting other Irish farmers in a disadvantaged position as compared to their European counterparts.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Disadvantaged Areas Scheme.
18.
The areas designated as disadvantaged for the purposes of the EEC directive are extensive and form a high proportion of the surface area of the county. Within these designated areas we are required by the directive to vary the level of aids according to the degree of handicap. Accordingly, the livestock headage payments will be concentrated in those areas which are most severely disadvantaged. These comprise over two-thirds of the total designated area.
Is the Minister saying that he is required by the EEC directive not only to subdivide the county into disadvantaged and, presumably, un-disadvantaged areas but to further subdivide the area designated disadvantaged into, presumably, very disadvantaged? If that is what the Minister is saying, then I think he is mistaken.
The directive lays down that the degree of handicap must be compensated according to the handicap.
Did the map submitted by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to the EEC Commission in Brussels not include counties Cavan and Monaghan in their entirely as well as counties Donegal and Mayo? Have not these areas been almost totally excluded from benefiting under the disadvantaged areas scheme because of the action of the Irish Government?
No. We are simply obliged under the directive to take the degree of handicap into consideration even within the disadvantaged areas. This is not just in Ireland. It is the same in Germany. We will be paying headage payments in approximately two-thirds of the designated areas whereas in Germany only one-third of the areas will get headage payment grants.
19.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries why all the 12 western counties were not included in all the disadvantaged areas schemes.
20.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will arrange for a review of the list of designated areas under the disadvantaged areas scheme and include under the scheme those areas of County Galway that are now excluded.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 19 and 20 together.
The EEC Directive on disadvantaged areas requires member countries to vary the level of aids according to the degree of handicap. The areas in which the special livestock payments will apply comprise over two-thirds of the total designated area and are the most severely handicapped by reference to the criteria specified in the directive. Outside of these areas the natural conditions for agricultural production are significantly better. Accordingly, whilst I will keep all aspects of the directive under review, I do not envisage any early changes in the arrangements outlined in the recent press statement.
Surely when the directive was published the 12 western counties were in the disadvantaged areas? The Minister is aware that theoretically we are in but practically, except for the designated areas, we are out. If you are not development farmers you do not get the headage payments. Only 3 per cent of the farmers in my county will get this. Surely the Minister could not reckon that as an advantaged area?
This is getting very involved, Deputy.
You are not giving me much time. If you do not want to give me time, I will sit down but I am very interested in this job.
I am anxious to help the Deputy but his questions must be brief and relevant.
If you tell me to sit down, I will do so as I obey the Chair at all times but I ask you to allow me to proceed. Several people can get up and make a speech but I cannot ask a simple question.
The Deputy is wasting precious time.
I do not waste much. Surely somebody at local level should be consulted? The Minister mentioned that the areas outside the designated areas were much better areas. I can assure him that if he consulted the advisory services of the CEO in some parts of Counties Roscommon and Galway he could not possibly say they were anything but disadvantaged areas. I should like him to tell me why there were not local consultations with the county committees of agriculture or the advisory services. Who decided the designated areas?
I am sure the Deputy is not suggesting that, for instance, east Galway compares with the rest of the county.
Of course, I am.
Why was it included in the map?
The land in east Galway compares favourably with the land in most of the rest of the country. The degree of handicap in east Galway is nothing like what it is in the remainder of the county and I think the Deputy knows that well.
Why did the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries submit that the areas referred to by Deputy Callanan be included and recognised as disadvantaged areas and by the action of the Minister thereafter those very areas are cut out and treated simply as if they were not disadvantaged areas?
This is deliberate misrepresentation and the Deputy knows it.
The misrepresentation is on the Minister's side.
As I said before, we are required by the directive to take the degree of handicap into consideration when deciding the level of benefit. This has been done not alone in Ireland. I gave the Deputy the example of Germany as well.
Who decides the degree of handicap?
The people who are qualified to do so.
Deputy Callanan asked about consultations. Will the Minister answer that?
There were consultations with anybody it was felt had anything additional to add. I made it quite clear at all times that anybody who had anything they wished to bring to us in relation to their dissatisfaction about what was included or excluded would be heard by the Department. We have heard several groups already.
Would the Minister state exactly what factors were taken into consideration when deciding the level of handicap when fixing the boundaries of the disadvantaged areas?
Everything that is required by the directive is taken into consideration. There is a copy of the directive available in the Library for everybody to read. In it they can find out all the things we are required to take into consideration.
Is the Minister suggesting that the advisory services of the CEOs in the various counties were not people in authority to be consulted? Those people were not consulted. Is the Minister suggesting that everybody who should be consulted was, when the advisory services were not?
Twelve months were spent in assessing this with officials of the EEC coming over and back and every survey that was ever done in the country was taken into consideration. All statistical data available was taken into consideration.
21.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries why the poorer parts of County Limerick, particularly those areas in which the farmers dole scheme is in operation, have not been included in the places designated as disadvantaged areas of the European Community.
The EEC Directive on disadvantaged areas lays down very specific criteria for determining qualifying areas. These include the nature and quality of the land, various economic indices and population criteria. The areas already announced were those found to match the very specific requirements in the directive.
However, as I have already announced, there will be a review of the initial list of disadvantaged areas. If, arising out of this review, other areas, such as those mentioned, can be shown to meet the criteria it will be possible to propose their inclusion for consideration by the EEC Commission.
Can the Minister say with whom consultation took place with regard to the exclusion of the western part of County Limerick, an area where 600 families are dependent on social welfare assistance to keep them on their small farms?
In the initial assessment the area referred to by the Deputy did not measure up, particularly on income grounds, at that time. If it is possible to get that area included as a separate income group, which is what we are trying to do— we are trying to divide the country into three income groups—it may be possible on a reassessment to include west Limerick. This is being looked at and it may or may not be possible.
Am I right in assuming that the area in question is regarded by the Minister and his staff as too poor to be included as an area for benefit under this scheme?
I do not understand that question. If it is too poor to be included——
The Minister said the area did not measure up to the income standard. I am trying to interpret what he said.
It was above the income limits laid down.
Would the Minister be kind enough to give us the figures dealing with the area in County Limerick where social assistance is being paid to farmers which excluded them under this scheme?
I cannot give the Deputy details of this kind off the cuff. All I can tell him is that is the information I have. On income grounds particularly this area was out.
Question No. 22.
The Minister has not said he cannot now give us off the cuff information of which he has two weeks' notice with regard to the exclusion of specific areas.
It is not included in the question.
I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
I will communicate with Deputy Collins in the matter.
22.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will (a) indicate the amount of the Exchequer contribution being made to the disadvantaged areas scheme, (b) increase the grant for fixed assets from 30 per cent to 40 per cent, (c) remove immediately the ceiling for maximum compensation per livestock unit, (d) make one livestock unit equal to five sheep instead of the six proposed and (e) reduce the £2,100 provision.
On the basis of present decisions of the EEC Council the Irish Exchequer will be required to bear 75 per cent of the cost of livestock headage payments and at least 75 per cent of the cost of all other aids to be provided under the EEC directive on disadvantaged areas. As regards the level of aids to be provided I am not yet in a position to announce details but hope to do so at an early date.
No discretion is allowed member states to vary the livestock unit equivalents. In the case of sheep, the evaluation prescribed in the directive is 1 sheep==0.15 livestock unit.
I tried to elucidate this percentage information from the Minister during the EEC debate but I am only receiving it now. I should like to know if there is any discretion in this directive? In the case of the other directives the Minister for Finance, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and the Minister for Lands improved on them. In view of the problems being experienced by farmers in the western area will the Minister ensure that any scope there is for additional help from our Exchequer will be given to the farmers who do not qualify for most grants now?
Of course there is discretion in the level of headage payments but the money has to be found. This year £6 million has been provided out of Exchequer funds for this scheme. That sizeable sum was not provided previously.
Why is the Minister referring solely to headage payments and cattle? Surely the scope of the directive on disadvantaged areas is wider than this?
What is the Deputy referring to?
When replying to my supplementary questions the Minister confined himself to making excuses based on headage payments for cattle.
That is where the big money is.
Prior to our entry into the EEC we had a wide variety of grants for farmers in these areas but since 1st February, 1974, they do not receive any of these grants.
That is not true and the Deputy knows that. Farmers are getting at least the same level of grants they always got.
The system of grants for farmers has broken down completely and the Minister is aware of that.
Is it not a fact that the Minister's figure of £6 million, based on 75 per cent, means that only £8 million will be spent in the west of Ireland under the various schemes visualised under the directive on disadvantaged areas? Is this all the money that will be made available?
Plus the beef incentive scheme.
Will the £6 million be increased?
No, it will not be increased.
The farmers will be glad to hear that.
It is £6 million Fianna Fáil never provided.
It is £6 million that was dragged out of the Government by the EEC.
We gave £30 million a year in supports.
The Minister stated "plus the beef incentive scheme", but I thought the two schemes were married.
They are.
If that is so we will not have the two operating; both grants will be amalgamated.
On a number of occasions I said that no farmers will be worse off and that most will be substantially better off.
How does the Minister reconcile his last statement with the admitted fact that farm incomes were down on the average by 30 per cent last year and that they are showing evidence of dropping further?
That is a separate question.
23.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the criteria which were used in establishing whether a district should be included in or excluded from cover by the disadvantaged areas scheme.
24.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will indicate the criteria on which areas were excluded from benefit under the disadvantaged areas scheme.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 23 and 24 together.
The EEC directive on disadvantaged areas lays down very specific criteria for determining qualifying areas. In brief, these include the nature and quality of the land, various economic indices and population criteria. Full details are set out in Council Document R/594/75 a copy of which is available in the Dáil Library.
Does the Minister agree that the terms of the directive he referred to are capable of liberal interpretation? Why was it thought necessary by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to prepare what amounts to two maps of disadvantaged areas relating to Ireland, one for the presentation to the public and the other for the actual nitty-gritty?
One is a political map of Ireland.
This is not confined to Ireland alone, it is being done in the other member states because they are obliged to deflect the degree of handicapped within the disadvantaged areas.
Is it not a fact that the decision as to the areas to be included was made here?
It was done in agreement with the EEC officials.
Who decided on the areas?
The officials in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries with the officials of the EEC, over a period of 12 months.
The Minister consulted nobody.
We consulted everybody concerned.
Is the Minister aware that the county committees of agriculture who would have been in a position to give information in this regard were not consulted?
They were all welcome to give that information and they knew it.