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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Apr 1975

Vol. 280 No. 1

Private Members' Business: Health Services: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann request the Minister for Health to make a regulation under subsection (3) of section 45 of the Health Act, 1970 specifying that the following classes of persons shall be deemed to be within the categories mentioned in subsection (1) of section 45 of that Act:

(1) Persons over 65 years of age

(2) Widows

(3) Persons suffering from any long term illness

(4) Families where the weekly income of husband and wife after deducting rent, rates, ground rent, mortgage repayments and expenses necessarily incurred in travelling to and from work and an amount of £4.00 per week in respect of each child with no income under 18 years of age, does not exceed £40.00 per week

(5) Single persons, living with relatives, whose income does not exceed £20.00 per week and

(6) Single persons living alone whose income after deducting rent, rates, ground rent, mortgage repayments and expenses necessarily incurred in travelling to and from work does not exceed £20 per week;

and request the Minister for Finance to assent to the making of such a regulation.

The purpose of this motion is to expand to a much greater number of people than at present the benefits of the general medical service by making them automatically entitled to entry in the general medical services register and to receive a medical card. Fianna Fáil are putting forward this motion because we believe that one specific way in which the welfare of ordinary men and women can be positively improved is by making better health services more widely available.

Illness, by itself, brings suffering and distress to the individual and into the home, but when there is added to that natural and inevitable suffering the additional misery of worry about the cost and expense, the strain becomes intolerable. We cannot abolish illness from human life, but it should be our resolve to move steadily towards a position where nobody in our community will be deprived of any medical attention he needs because of his financial circumstances, so that that fear one so often hears expressed of not being able to afford to be ill will be removed from our midst.

The general medical service is the cornerstone of our health services. It is through its expansion and improvement that the most positive and widespread progress can be made. Health services here, as in most other countries, are absorbing community resources at an increasingly alarming rate, and it is doubtful if even the richest nations can provide adequate resources for all the things they would wish to do in regard to health. The control of the development of our health services in a modern community is, therefore, something that calls for great wisdom, judgment and balance. There must be constant forward movement, but great care must be taken to ensure that in that process of forward movement the resources and capacities are not overstretched to the detriment of the services provided.

It is these considerations that have led us in Fianna Fáil inevitably to decide that an extension of the general medical service to a wider section of the community is the major improvement that should be undertaken at this time in our health services. This is something we see as urgent and inescapable in our circumstances today. There is no other single improvement in our community services which is so clearly called for for a widening section of our community. The mounting pressure of the general cost of living and the alarming rise in the cost of medicine are making it impossible for them any longer to provide for their medical needs out of their own resources.

This proposal to extend the general medical service to embrace a wider section of the population is a basic component of our general health policy. That policy is based on the principle of advancing steadily on a broad front. It will seek to achieve a tolerable balance between overall requirements, on the one hand, and the availability of resources, on the other, to improve services comprehensively without diluting the quality of those services. It is part of that policy to afford priority to improving existing facilities, and that is precisely what we are seeking to do in this motion, by extending the general medical service while, at the same time, as resources permit, improving and adding to the general level of that service.

Our policy is to push forward within the existing framework, the progress rate to be determined by community needs, scientific advances, social and economic factors, and not by any doctrinaire considerations. We believe that in this way it will be possible to evolve a comprehensive health service in an orderly manner, services being augmented steadily and not reduced in quality from time to time by ill-considered, unprepared decisions.

That strategy of advancing on a broad front will, nevertheless, mean that there will have to be preferential direction of resources to certain problem areas. That guiding principle acknowledges the fact that certain groups will always require special attention and protection, and we are making a start with some such groups in this motion. The family doctor is, of course, the key to the general medical service and, indeed, to the health services in general. Our policy for health involves a greater emphasis on increased recruitment into the general medical service with—and we must admit this—a corresponding curtailment of recruitment for hospital medical staff. Accordingly, conditions of service in the general medical service will have to be made more attractive to secure this change of emphasis. If doctors are to be attracted into this service, there is undoubtedly a need for a contract to be negotiated on a new, far-reaching basis with the profession.

We believe also that the local health centre, as the focal point of the general medical service, is the key to the most efficient use of our limited resources. The development and improvement of the services provided in these health centres will reduce greatly the necessity for hospital admissions and will facilitate something which we aim at also—the ultimate integration of our medical services with our social and community services.

This motion seeks to increase in two ways the number of people eligible for medical cards. First, it seeks a general increase in the number of people eligible for medical cards by raising fairly substantially, but not irresponsibly, the upper income limits for eligibility in the case of families and individuals. Secondly, it seeks to make obligatory the issue of medical cards to specific categories of persons. Those categories to which we seek to have the issue of medical cards automatic and obligatory are, first, persons over 65 years of age, secondly, widows and, thirdly, any person suffering from a long-term illness. It is our view that the general circumstances of these people and their status in the community are such that there should be no question as to their eligibility for medical cards and that the common-sense approach to this is to make automatic the issue of a card to anyone in any of the three categories.

The case for doing this in respect of a person over 65 years is self-evident and is entirely in keeping with modern thinking in this area. There may be people in this category who, because of their private circumstances, would not be regarded as being badly in need of eligibility for free general medical services but I submit that such persons are few in number and that, consequently, we need not concern ourselves unduly with them. They would not be likely to avail of the service in any event. It is entirely in keeping with the whole trend in community thinking that senior citizens should have automatic entitlement to free general medical services.

The case in respect of widows is equally self-evident. Widows are in a very special category. They are a section of our community who require and deserve special consideration and concern. Any reasonable approach to the question of an extension of eligibility for the general medical services would include widows automatically.

The case for including persons suffering from long-term illnesses is unanswerable. There are special provisions in existence for such persons in so far as a limited number of illnesses are concerned and I know that recently the Minister extended the list of diseases but, again, the simple straightforward way of dealing with the matter is to make automatic and obligatory the issuing of medical cards to all persons suffering from any long-term illnesses. Regardless of how the Minister may extend the categories there will always be the case which, if excluded, will result in hardship. It must be pointed out, too, that in respect of the diseases listed by the Minister, the sufferers are entitled only to special financial assistance relating to certain costs and expenses. I am proposing that they be entitled to the full services which a medical card would make available to them.

When we specified these various categories we should not be regarded as excluding any other either now or in the future. No doubt most Deputies, from their own experience in their constituencies, will see a need to add to the list of three which I have included in the motion. Indeed, no sooner had I drafted the motion and tabled it than I realised there was one important category which I should have included and which I would include if I were to amend the motion. I refer to unmarried mothers. The issue of medical cards to persons in this category should be automatic also. I trust that if the Minister is adopting our proposal he will include them. I should hope also that the categories I am enumerating would be regarded as a tentative beginning and that the list would be added to periodically as the need arises and as resources become available.

In addition to the desirability of improving generally our health services by making the general medical service available to a wider section of the community, there exists an immediate, urgent need to revise the present income limits upwards so as to cope with the effects of inflation. The existing guidelines are being rendered irrelevant by these inflationary pressures. Income increases which have been granted, either to people in employment or to those in receipt of social welfare were granted to compensate for increases in the cost of living. However, these increases are resulting in medical cards being withdrawn unjustifiably from people to whom they had been issued already and are operating in a way that prevents the issue of new cards in cases where the necessity for them is clear. This is because these necessary increases are resulting in persons earning more than is the guideline in the limits for eligibility.

I went through my constituency correspondence and at random—I am sure most Deputies could do the same—I was able to extract seven cases where medical cards are denied to individuals and families where any of us would agree that, if at all possible, the card should have been issued.

I shall take the case of Mrs. D who lives in Artane. She applied for a medical card in 1973 in respect of her baby daughter who was a rubella baby and was also born deaf. With the complaint this child has, she is open to colds and infection and needs permanent heating in her bedroom. The family installed central heating which they could barely afford. The child requires regular attention and they are finding it very difficult to meet the bill. The husband is not covered by any insurance scheme and any visits to specialists or anything of that nature has to be paid for out of their own resources and they are not able to afford the cost involved.

When I got in touch with the Eastern Health Board I was told that because of the family income they would not be eligible for a card but my attention was directed to a scheme where the cost of medicines in excess of £4 in a calendar month can be refunded to them. That is a help but it is not sufficient. They still have to pay £4 a month for drugs. That scheme is not very efficiently administered. In addition there are countless other medical expenses which they have to meet out of their own meagre resources. That is a typical case extracted at random.

There is another case, that of Mrs. C of Santry, who has a three-year-old boy who suffers from hypogammaglobulinemia. It is a long-term illness which requires very special treatment. She also applied for and was refused a medical card. I appealed to the Minister for Health in that case and I had a very courteous and helpful letter from the Minister but the gist of it is that in the circumstances and within the context of the guidelines laid down for the Eastern Health Board, a medical card cannot be issued. He directed my attention to the scheme for refunding the cost of drugs and medicines in excess of £4 a month. That is of very little help to this woman who is a widow.

Another widow, Mrs. C of Coolock, has a full contributory widow's pension which comes to £18.95 per week. She works part-time in a local factory. She has three children and after all the calculations are made and all allowances granted to her within the guidelines, she is about £4 over the limit and is denied a medical card. Again, this is a particular case in which I think in the circumstances of today a medical card should be issued.

I have put down in the motion particular figures because I thought it advisable and desirable that I should put some positive proposals to the Minister. As regards (4), I set out that medical cards should be issued in the case of families where the weekly income of the husband and wife after deducting rent, rates, ground rent, mortgage repayments and expenses necessarily incurred in travelling to and from work and an amount of £4 per week in respect of each child with no income under 18 years of age, does not exceed £40 per week. There is nothing sacrosanct about the £40 per week or the £4 per child and if the Minister were to accept lesser figures I do not think anybody would quarrel with him. I do not want to suggest that my figures are figures over which we would challenge a division. They are just a kind of starting point and I put them into the motion for the sake of having some positive figures to work on.

Perhaps I should explain why we have adopted the particular method set out in the motion to achieve the extension of the general medical service which we believe to be necessary at this time. We have done so because it seems to be the only means by which such an extension could be immediately and uniformly accomplished throughout the whole country. In 1970, the Minister for Health asked the CEOs of the eight health boards to accept responsibility for deciding who is, or is not entitled to a medical card and he urged that uniform standards be adopted in all areas. That was agreed to and the present position is that medical cards are issued throughout the country on the basis of guidelines laid down by the eight CEOs of the health boards in pursuance of that agreement. To bring about the substantial change we regard as vitally necessary would, I assume, involve getting those eight regional health boards through their CEOs to adopt new criteria and guidelines. That would seem to involve long and tedious negotiations and the process might well turn out to be fruitless at the end of the day.

The procedure we are proposing in the motion is that the Minister make an order with the consent of the Minister for Finance which would enable this proposal, if the House deems it to be worthy and worth while, to be brought into operation immediately throughout all regions on a uniform basis. We do not regard it as appropriate for us, as a responsible and constructive Opposition, simply to demand the provision of services without any regard to their cost or the budgetary implications involved. We, also, must establish our priorities and we must relate any proposal we put forward to the overall financial situation. Fully conscious of that responsibility we have however, no hesitation in putting forward this proposal and pressing its adoption on the Government and the Minister. I think the House will appreciate that on these Opposition benches we have found great difficulty in endeavouring to calculate the exact cost of this proposal but we are satisfied on the best evidence available to us that cost need not be prohibitive. In the context of an Estimate of £177 million for the Department of Health this year, the cost of our proposal would be of an order that could legitimately be dealt with within the normal processes of dealing with excess expenditure of a Vote of the size of the Department of Health. Certainly there is no other proposal over the entire spectrum of the health services that would bring such widespread and universal relief throughout the economy for such a relatively modest cost.

This is a serious considered proposal. I hope it will be considered by the House on its merits and that it will receive mature examination. I am quite certain that Deputies, with their experience of the administration of health services, will be able to point perhaps to flaws in this proposal, to suggest improvements and, if necessary, limitations on what we propose. I hope it will be dealt with by the House in that attitude and that we will not have, as unfortunately we sometimes have from the Government back benches, a certain standardised, sterile type of comment. This extension in eligibility for medical cards is urgently needed to alleviate widespread worry and hardship among a large section of the community. I strongly commend this proposal to the House and to the Minister. While having regard to limitations that may exist, I hope it will receive favourable and sympathetic consideration.

I wish to second the motion. Does that mean I may speak now?

A seconder is not required.

I have considerable sympathy for the suggestions set out in Deputy Haughey's motion but its complexity has been glossed over by the proposer. Acceptance of this motion would mean that we would reach a point where almost 90 per cent of the population would be covered by the GMS. A national health service has its supporters and its critics. There are sections in the motion that should be given serious consideration and, if the finance is available, they should be implemented immediately.

Subsection (3) of the motion refers to persons suffering from any long-term illness. They should be given the optimum benefit of the health services. In this category we should include people suffering from chronic bronchitis, regardless of the cause; chornic arthritis, regardless of origin or definition; chronic heart disease and acute heart disease; and asthma, regardless of the type. We should also include people suffering from anaemia and chronic leukaemia as well as people suffering from a group of minor ailments. We have the highest percentage rate in Europe for some of those illnesses. I realise this would be a major financial undertaking but it would bring great relief to the sufferers.

It is important to quote the section of the Health Act, 1970, to which Deputy Haughey referred. Section 45 (1) states:

A person in either of the following categories shall have full eligibility for the services under this Part—

(a) Adult persons unable without undue hardship to arrange general practitioner medical and surgical services for themselves and their dependants,

(b) dependants of the persons referred to in paragraph (a).

Section 46 (8) states:

Any person who is not in any of the categories specified in subsection (1) or in regulations under subsection (3) but who, in relation to a particular service which is available to persons with limited eligibility, is considered by the chief executive officer of the appropriate health board to be unable, without undue hardship, to provide that service for himself or his dependants shall, in relation to that service, be deemed to be a person with limited eligibility.

These conditions are well defined in a very bureaucratic Health Act, an Act that is not fully understood by the people. The Health Act, 1970, was one of the most complicated pieces of legislation brought before this House in relation to the health services. I know that the wish of the Minister is to have health services that the people can understand and use. At the moment people are entitled to a refund of expenditure in excess of £4 per calendar month but many people do not understand this or know how to go about claiming the refund. It is not the fault of the Department. The facility exists but people are slow to claim it.

What Deputy Haughey is referring to really is 15p per day in the cost of medicines. This is the maximum for a person suffering from a long-term illness or for a person who has an illness in the family. The sum involved is 15p per day over 28 days. Perhaps a survey might be taken of the number of people who applied, correlate that with the number of people using the medical services outside the GMS, take account of the number of prescriptions issued per month by chemists on a private basis and thus see the percentage availing of the service. In this way it might be possible to get a more accurate figure regarding costs.

A problem arises in that the Medical Union contend that in the initial agreement made with regard to the GMS the percentage of the population covered should not exceed 33 per cent. It is around that figure now. If Deputy Haughey's motion were accepted there would be a difficulty in that matter. There would also be a problem with the chemists. That question was satisfactorily resolved by the Minister recently and he must be congratulated for his efforts.

I am disappointed about one aspect. There is a stigma attached to the medical card and we want to eliminate that. We want all patients to be equal. There are too many medical cards. There is the British Army Services card, the CIE medical card, the Garda medical card, the Dublin Port and Docks card. There are far too many different coloured medical cards and not all of them entitle one to as much as the GMS card.

I should like to see the card system go altogether. I should like to see everybody equal and that they would themselves feel equal. In the country they will not use the medical card on many occasions because of the stigma attached to it. As far as the motion is concerned, there is validity for persons over 65 to be covered. The age should be practical, though persons over 65 years could do with the GMS card. Widows in so far as they do not include wealthy widows should be covered. Their dependants should be included. There are deserted wives and unmarried mothers. It is not unusual nowadays for many members of the clerical institutions to have the GMS card. It applies to university students, and every child up to the age of 16 and attending school has the medical card. This would have to be altered or amended in a way that would give children up to the age of 18 and attending school the use of the card. The figure in the motion of £40 per week for a married man and £20 for a single man seems to me to be quite a high figure for qualification but it could be altered a little.

One thing I should love to see, and I should like to have heard Deputy Haughey refer to and I hope the Minister will refer to it, is that 33 per cent of the population are covered by the medical card. How often do those patients visit with the medical card and what is the cost to the State? I hope the Minister refers to this in his reply because it is causing a lot of consternation at the present time. A doctor will have a person with a medical card coming in to see him 50 times a year but as soon as he loses the card he does not get sick until, perhaps, in three or four years' time when he is out of work and he gets the card back. There is widespread abuse of the medical card in certain areas to the extent that it could be termed criminal. People come in to health centres around the city and in other urban areas looking for Dettol, hair shampoos, creams, baby lotions, tonics, soap, and they are entitled to them under the Health Service Regulations of 1972. A doctor under the GMS can be brought before a committee for not prescribing these things under subsection (5).

I think the State at the moment could afford what Deputy Haughey has suggested in his motion. There are areas in respect of which it could be afforded with no extra expense if far greater control were kept on the abuse of the medical card. I have seen people who needed medical treatment not being able to get it. I have seen people hesitate to look for medical treatment, but I have also seen widespread abuse. It is in that grey area of the 1 or 2 per cent who abuse the medical card that discipline should be brought in by the health boards. There are eight CEOs in the country and this load should be taken off the backs of GPs—the swapping of cards, the bringing in of neighbours' children to a locum. This is widespread—I am not exaggerating. Because of that the people who are paying rates, mortgages, ground rents and so on should be entitled to a little more. I am fully in support of the ideals in this motion in which I would include dependants of Army personnel because I find they are a deprived section.

The £177 million for health services this year is an increase of 340 per cent during the last five years. Some tremendously good things have been done. There were the recent additions in the 1975 regulations of Parkinson's disease, acute leukaemia, muscular dystrophy, multiple sclerosis and, in 1973, the thalidomide sufferers. I know these will be extended and that as much relief as possible will be given in so far as the Exchequer can bear it.

There is no Minister more concerned than the Minister for Health about providing help in that grey area Deputy Haughey referred to. We have the men: we have more doctors per head of the population than any other country in Europe and in Dublin we have more than in any other city in Europe bar Geneva; we have more nurses per head of the population than any other country; we have more hospital beds per head of the population. What we are lacking is in the small percentage of money being spent to expand the services the other little bit that is needed—to the widows, the over 65s and so forth. They cannot be looked after to the extent that we would wish.

If this could be done, we would have the back of the problem broken forever. The GMS would require only small additions. This is the final rock that has to be moved, the final pill for the services. I know the Minister wants this done as soon as possible. I sincerely hope that those who speak after me will not attempt to debase the good intentions behind the motion.

The 33 per cent of the population covered in the agreement with the Medical Union and the IMA, the contract entered into with the chemists, the increased administrative costs, the increase in the cost of distributing these drugs through the chemists, are a measure of our concern.

One thing I should like the Minister to refer to in his reply is the dental service. I know the people concerned in this motion want that. We want the dental service improved. It is one of the priorities of the health services. There are illnesses resulting from dental disease and I appeal to the Minister in his reply to give that some mention. I had a case of a person recently who was quoted a bill of £600 for dental treatment to hold on to a few teeth.

It is only fair to say that there are provisions in the Health Act which mean that people need not necessarily suffer because of the cost of either hospitalisation or medicines but there is a very real subjective suffering and a feeling of being a burden on the health services. The services may suffer from financial anaemia and that is the responsibility of the Exchequer. What is in this motion is part of the Fine Gael policy document "Towards a Just Society". The figures have been changed a little. It is also part of the National Coalition policy. I do not think there would be any great objection to it provided the money was there.

Deputies Moore and Coughlan rose.

Deputy Seán Moore. It is usual to cross the floor.

I rise to support Deputy Haughey's motion. It focuses attention on something we have neglected to emphasise up to now. I am not criticising the health services which I believe are generally quite good. It is our duty to keep people out of hospital. Deputy Haughey mentioned the stress and strain on a patient who is worried about how he is to pay for his treatment in hospital. This is not conducive to a speedy recovery.

Deputy Byrne said we have got more hospital beds, doctors and nurses than any country in Europe. To say we have more hospital beds may be a doubtful compliment. It may be that we are not taking sufficient steps to provide people with proper treatment at home. St. Vincent's Hospital was only completed in the last few years and already it is too small and some of its patients have to be accommodated in a nearby hospital. With the best intentions we are trying to provide more hospital beds but with the cost nowadays of keeping a person in hospital anybody who can be treated at home should be treated there. This would not just save money. There are also sociological factors involved. It is much easier today to treat people at home than it was 20 years ago. Our housing standards have risen greatly. In urban areas at any rate most houses have a supply of hot and cold water. Certain medical and surgical treatment could be provided at home. The local health centre should be the focal point of this. I would urge the Minister to consider the idea of having mobile teams at each health centre who could treat people in their own homes. In this way a colossal amount of money could be saved. It would also mean that a mother, say, with a slight illness could stay at home with her children. This is not new thinking. The maternity hospitals have been doing this kind of thing for years.

The Minister may ask who will foot the bill if he accepts Deputy Haughey's motion. I suggest that if he concentrated more on home treatment the money saved would enable him to accept the motion. The concern is not just to save money but to make people better. I say the emphasis should be on the prevention of illness by providing the best services possible and by removing the fear that people will not be treated because they cannot afford it.

When I was a young man I worked with a man who had TB. I am convinced that he died because he went on working to the very end. In the late 1940s the late Dr. Ryan brought in a Bill which removed the means test in the case of TB. This was a great step forward. It meant that people could go for treatment and not worry about where the money came from. The emphasis should be on preventive rather than remedial measures. Deputy Haughey's motion is a step in that direction.

Deputy Byrne mentioned the abuse of the medical card. He has more experience than I have and I do not disbelieve him. However, the abuse of any art or science is not a condemnation of it. Human nature will tend to abuse but even if there is abuse and even if home treatment costs money it will not cost as much as hospitalisation. At present the Eastern Health Board pay about £20 a week towards the cost of keeping a person in an institution. When one adds on what is paid by people themselves it shows the cost of keeping a person in hospital for even one week. Even the most modern hospital has a a huge staff. Apart from the medical staff there are clerical and manual workers. I serve on the board of a federated hospital in this city. It is an old building. The Government grants keep it going but in order to make it better some of the most eminent medical and business people in the city try to raise funds for the hospital. We are quite successful. The money raised is small when compared with the cost of keeping a person there but that does not cause us to lose heart. In fact, it spurs us on.

The time has come for us to look at the whole matter of the ever-rising costs of staffs, general upkeep of the hospitals, drugs and medicines, and to find out where there is the greatest loss of money. I suggest the greatest cost arises because so many people are hospitalised. There are times when people must be sent to hospital. I am sure Deputy Byrne, Deputy Coughlan and Deputy Haughey will agree that very often you cannot get a person into hospital because the hospital are full all the time. This is no reflection on our medical services. It shows that we need, to use a modern cliché, an in-depth examination of the whole structure of the hospital services particularly in the larger cities.

Let us consider the projected size of St. James' Hospital, and what it will be like when it is finished and has absorbed most of the federated hospitals. Medical men tell you today that larger hospitals are better for training personnel and better for patients, and that doctors gain more experience by having a varied list of cases in a hospital. The Minister might ask the new health committee to examine very closely how much it costs to run the hospitals. If we examined the cost of maintaining one patient in a modern hospital for a month we would find that the figure was staggering. If that person had the benefit of an early diagnosis and if he could have availed of the medical card, he might not have had to be hospitalised. A person with a medical card has no fear of having to meet hospital bills. Many of us know from personal experience what a worry it is to receive a colossal bill from a hospital and then to be told that we also have to pay the physician or the surgeon.

I agree with Deputy Byrne that very often the health services are not explained to people. People come to us with their problems and we explain how they can benefit under the health services. That relieves their mind of some worry. Of course, in some cases we have to say: "I am sorry. You do not qualify." They say : "I have a young family and I cannot afford to go into hospital." They go on working until they cannot work any longer. They then have to think of the day when they will have to settle their bills. This does not help them to recover. It retards their recovery.

We should emphasise to the medical men that they should try to treat people at home instead of removing them from their families and sending them into hospital. The health services must pay the colossal cost when they are hospitalised. Deputy Byrne mentioned the abuse of the medical cards. It is better that they should be abused than that one genuine case should suffer. I know a man who is an alcoholic. He will not admit it. He is still working. His wife has no medical card. He cannot afford to give her much money because he drinks most of his wages. This whole family are suffering because they have no medical card. The returns from his employer say he is earning £x per week which puts him beyond the limit for a medical card. His wife has got to try to keep the family going in clothing and in food on the pittance he gives her each week. In that case, even though there might be an abuse of the medical card, I would give it to them. I do not see why his wife and children should suffer because the man needs treatment and will not take it.

I would ask the Minister to examine an allegation which is often made, with some truth I think, that in the Dublin area it is harder to get a medical card than it is in other parts of the country. I do not know what the criteria for medical cards are. The Minister might see whether we could lower the qualifying requirements so that we will be able to ensure that a person who deserves a card, not because of his income but because of his medical needs, will get it. It is foolish to think that by refusing a card to a person we will save money. I suppose in a few cases we would save money but, in many cases, the fact that a person did not get a card eventually adds very much to the cost of the care of that person when he has to go into hospital for treatment.

In my experience, the treatment in our hospitals is of a very high standard. Whether or not you have a medical card, while you are in hospital you are given the very best treatment.

Deputy Haughey's motion proposes that persons over 65 years of age should be given medical cards. We could do this. People will be living longer because of the excellence of our health services. There is also the fact that the expectation of life is getting much longer. Therefore, we will have a problem on our hands with regard to homes for our old people. As we become more materialistic, the modern tendency is to put old people into homes. I know that in many cases this cannot be avoided. The person's family may have all died or he may have some chronic illness and must go into a home. I would appeal to the Minister to try to provide homes for old people near the health centres in the urban areas. I often thought how wonderful it would be if we could have local homes for old people so that they would not have to leave their neighbourhood and could look out the windows at familiar scenes. This would be good for them. With Dublin becoming so big, people have to go a journey of several miles to the geriatric homes. They are taken out of their old habitats and put into new surroundings. Every time one visits them they ask to be taken home again or to be brought back at least into the city.

Deputy Byrne referred to the abuse of medical cards. Education in the proper use of medical cards would be valuable. It should be clearly shown to those who abuse these cards that they are being unfair to others who have to pay heavily in taxation so that they can abuse these cards while those who pay the bill are deprived of medical cards. That should be clearly spelled out. Entitlements should be clearly defined. That would be a valuable exercise in economics though we do not run our health services on the basis of economics.

One glaring omission arises under dental services. A man's wife does not qualify for dental treatment. Dental treatment can be a major factor in good health or bad health, as major as other organic disabilities. This discrimination against women should be ended. Women should be treated on an equal basis.

Deputy Haughey's motion is a good one. It will not cost a great deal of money. It has been shown that its implementation would actually save money. The cost of hospitalisation is truly frightening and we may well reach the stage at which we will not be able to put people into hospital because of the cost. Health boards are having a tough time meeting their commitments. I work for a charitable organisation and I have found the health boards most helpful. The people involved are dedicated and they give all the assistance possible. At the moment it is not so easy to get money from the health boards. I appreciate that a great part of the problem is the ever-rising cost of hospitalisation.

We have here a new approach, an approach which will help to prevent people getting ill. This motion, if accepted, will reassure those who fear they cannot afford to be ill. One sympathises with the Minister in the task of finding the money to finance all these services. I believe preventive medicine is the answer. It would effect a great saving on hospitalisation and that would enable other services to be expanded in the way suggested in the motion.

I speak on this motion as a member of a health authority for well over 25 years. Initially, we were just an ordinary board dealing with mental illness. As time went on we developed into a health authority with responsibility for the city and county of Limerick, governing all the hospitals, with the exception of the voluntary hospitals which were privately run. Later on, we were formed into a health board with responsibility for the city and county of Limerick, all Clare and North Tipperary. Having listened to the previous speakers, I am amazed at the fact that they know so little about this whole subject. I cannot understand the statements made with regard to the general medical services operated by the board of which I am a member. I also happen to be a member of the board of both the voluntary hospitals in Limerick, St. John's Hospital and Barrington's Hospital. I think I know a little about what it takes to run health services, to run them as efficiently and as economically as possible. We have our problems. Who has not? But, if we have our problems, we face up to them within the limits of our resources. On our health board all the professions are represented. We have the GPs, the specialists, the dentists, the nurses and the public representatives. I could not imagine a more representative group setting out to solve, rectify and improve the health services of our region.

The people who spoke here this evening are obviously looking at the problem through long distance binoculars. They should take a close-up view of the immediate problem and see the reality of the situation. We would all like to give and go on giving. We would all like to have our patients in private rooms. So far nobody has really dealt with the question of cost. Deputy Moore said he had some experience of an organisation here in Dublin—he did not name it—but anyone who is attached to the health services knows what it costs to run these institutions and provide the services. We have been operating these services over a long number of years. Here, I must say that the late Minister for Health did an excellent job within his resources. He recognised reality.

Without being in any way complimentary to the present Minister, I must say he has excelled in overcoming certain difficulties with which he was faced. God knows they were tremendous at times during the discussions when strikes were threatened by all sections of the medical profession—the general practitioners one day, the consultants another day and the nurses another day. We did not have anything like this in the past. I am surprised at a professional man like Deputy Byrne telling us we can give this and it will cost nothing. I expected a lot more from him. I am only an ordinary man who is acquainted with the people who live on the side of the street. I do not look at them through my binoculars.

We should consider all those things when we seek the sanction of the House for a particular project. I have 25 years' experience in public life and I do not think I am an amadán. I am afraid, judging from some of the things I have heard, that there are some among us. We have to have a certain degree of discipline and investigation in the administration of the health services. Those are not civil service regulations or regulations laid down by people who say that this is it and beyond that we cannot go. We have our own guidelines. The health boards consist of people who have come together in various areas. They are men from rich land and poor land who deal with all sections of the community. They have agreed on certain lines of operation, but these are not strictly adhered to. There is no hard and fast rule in my health board area and I am sure the members of the other seven health boards are as humane and conscious of the problems that exist as we are. We have full co-operation from all the people represented on that board—the general practitioners, consultants, nurses, dentists and public representatives. We also have people who are interested in social work generally. Those people are nominated by the Minister.

My health board are anxious to help not alone the people who are ill but their dependants. Following their establishment all the health boards agreed that certain objectives should be set, and within that context we should look at every case presented to us, irrespective of the income going into the particular house. That is the way medical cards are issued and not as set out in the portion of the Health Act read by Deputy Byrne. Deputy Haughey mentioned three or four cases. If those were in our area they would get immediate attention. I am surprised such things are happening in the Eastern Health Board area.

Deputy Haughey and Deputy Byrne said that the monthly refund was £4. This is £3 in my area. If receipts are presented for anything between £3 and £5 spent in a month, half that sum is refunded; and if over £5 is spent, all the money is refunded.

The Minister gave the figure as £4.

It is £3 in my area. If the Deputy knows anybody in the Eastern Health Board he should check this with them.

I think the Deputy will find that, in effect, it is £4.

I am speaking from experience in the health board I represent.

The Deputy should check that up because it is £4.

It is £3 in my area and that is what it will remain.

The Deputy is out of date.

It is a good thing the Deputy is not Minister for Health.

I know a little bit more about it than the boys from Ballyfermot. Like poor old Goldsmith I hold a little more in my poor head than what lies in the heads of the two Deputies opposite, if there is anything there at all. The Deputies would need to get some specialist to try and diagnose whatever grey matter lies in their heads. Nobody has told me what this proposal will cost but in my area we costed most of the items referred to. At present in the region of 3,000 people are employed and we are giving a service to 100,000 people by way of medical cards. However, it does not stop at that. The fact that a person holds a medical card does not limit him to the benefits of the Health Act.

Debate adjourned.
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