Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 May 1975

Vol. 280 No. 8

Vote 42: Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £34,849,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1975, for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

—(Minister for Transport and Power.)

Mr. J. O'Leary

When I spoke on the 24th April on this Estimate I referred to what I regard as complete failure on the part of the Government to promote the tourist industry and to make a success of it. I also referred to the failure of the Government to handle situations within the ESB and CIE.

What has transpired recently in both State-sponsored companies bears out the correctness of what I said. I stated on that day that the ESB were cutting back on major schemes, that they had adopted a go-slow attitude in relation to their planned rural development scheme. Obviously the ESB are laying off men slowly but surely. I suggested that the Government should subsidise the ESB and that they should make arrangements for the ESB to carry out those major schemes and their programmes, as planned. Now is the time to plan for provision of power if this country is to expand industrially in the future, which I believe it will. If things improve again and industrialists come to this country, certainly it will be a big set-back to them to find that the infrastructure, such as the provision of electricity, does not exist in sufficient quantity.

I believe that the recent increases announced by the ESB in its charges will have a crippling effect on the economy. Certainly, they will have a crippling effect on the ordinary man who finds it difficult to pay his ESB bills. I meet people daily experiencing difficulty in meeting their ESB bills. I had occasion recently to refer a number of such cases to the superintendent assistance officer and to the home assistance officer to ascertain whether or not their bills could be paid by way of assistance through the county council in order that their electricity supply would not be cut off. These further increases announced certainly mean that there will be a category of persons who cannot possibly afford to meet them.

We must examine also the effect of these increases on industry. We know industry is going through a very trying time at present. The increased ESB charges certainly will affect many industries and probably to an extent that some just hanging on at present will be forced to close down, with resultant further unemployment. I believe that one of the primary reasons for these outlandish increases in charges which the ESB found necessary to impose is the failure of the Government to check inflation, now running at approximately 30 per cent per annum. With regard to electricity supply, the Government should endeavour to arrange that such large capital contributions would not be required from persons in rural areas, particularly from persons building homes. I know of many cases where such capital contribution required by the ESB for the supply of electricity to persons building their homes amounts to the total of the combined State and local authority grants.

It is my firm belief also that one of the primary reasons CIE have found it necessary to increase their charges—as announced recently—is the failure of the Government to check inflation, their failure to deal with any crisis that develops. Up to recently it was evident that more and more people were using CIE as a means of transport for pleasure and business purposes. Probably the tremendous increase in the price of petrol, as a result of Government taxation, had something to do with this. But the colossal increase announced recently by CIE in respect of transport will mean that fewer people will travel with them which, in turn, will involve a reduction in revenue to CIE.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I should tell the Deputy that he has six minutes left.

Mr. J. O'Leary

We must examine the position so far as CIE are concerned and ask ourselves if this is a social service. Is it to be operated as a social service? I believe it is. That being said, it is the duty of the Government to subsidise the company if it cannot carry on without increasing fares to such an extent that it will discourage people from using CIE as a mode of transport and involve more losses for the company.

Before concluding, I must refer again to the complete failure of the Government to promote tourism here. I believe very little effort is being made to promote the tourist market in Western Europe and Britain. I believe there is a substantial market to be tapped in Western Europe and in Britain and that Bord Fáilte would be well advised to move their forces from Japan and Australia and concentrate on that market. It will be years before we see thousands of tourists coming here from Japan and Australia. I would strongly urge the Minister for Transport and Power and the Government to drop section 10 of the Wealth Tax Bill so far as hotels are concerned because we know that hoteliers are going through a very difficult period. Many of them are on the verge of bankruptcy already. Should the Government proceed with the Wealth Tax Bill and implement section 10, as published, it will mean the end for many a hotel here. It is evident that hotels are doing badly when we see that Ostlanna Iompair Éireann, a group of hotels backed by the State, have shown considerable losses in recent years. How, then, can we expect the family-run hotel or the chain of small hotels throughout the country to operate at a profit while the Government intend bringing in a measure to further tax hoteliers—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would not be appropriate on this Bill.

Mr. J. O'Leary

One of the principal reasons for the failure of the tourist industry here is the rising cost of living. I have no doubt but that we have priced ourselves out of the tourist market. The failure of the Government to check inflation has interfered substantially not alone with the tourist industry but has been the cause also of the substantial increases announced recently in ESB charges and CIE fares. The Government, failing miserably to check inflation have contributed to the extent of approximately 90 per cent to the failure of the tourist industry and to the substantial increases in electricity charges and CIE fares.

Mr. O'Brien

Transport and Power encompass a large number of semi-State bodies. This is about the only opportunity we get to speak about these bodies. We should set up within this House at an early date a series of committees to look into the activities of the semi-State bodies. It is high time the semi-State bodies were accountable to this House to a far greater extent than they are at present. CIE have been granted a subsidy of £17 million but we cannot ask questions about them in this House. The whole operation is wrong. The taxpayers foot the bill and they elect us to look after their interests. If we have not the opportunity to ask relevant questions it is time we put into operation the select committee system. I would ask the Minister to use his good offices to ensure that this is done. It would help his Department also.

In addition to the subsidy given to CIE, their fares have increased considerably and one wonders where it will stop. We must examine the whole transport system and ask if we are getting value for money. The Minister should carry out an investigation into the cost of running CIE. We know costs have escalated but the question is whether they have escalated to such a degree. I do not know the answer and it is up to the Minister to find out.

I have said before that CIE should operate a proper transportation system in Dublin because the present system is chaotic. We have been getting various road reports every year but no action has been taken. CIE have responsibility for transporting people and they have an obligation to come up with the answers. It is no use saying there are too many cars on the roads. CIE must operate a system that will transport people quickly and economically from one point to another. I have advocated that, where possible, our cities should be pedestrianised but this is impossible with the present transport system. It does not justify requesting motorists to park outside the central city area and to use buses. The transport system is not properly geared to cope with this and we have no proper plan but in Nottingham, for instance, it operates efficiently. Some business people are concerned that it might kill the life of city but the contrary has been proved. There is evidence that where people can come in and move freely around a city there is a greater degree of commerce.

CIE should re-examine their role. Otherwise people will tend to use cars to a greater degree and this is not in the best interests of anyone. Every morning cars come into the city with only one person in them and this is a complete waste of transport and petrol. However, the car owner has no option. There has been considerable development in Dublin in the Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Ballyfermot and Dundrum areas but the only contribution to transport in those areas was the closing down of the Harcourt Street railway line. I said before it was a scandal and I shall continue to say it until some action is taken. The line was vandalised so that it might not be used again but it is never too late to change. We are paying £17 million to CIE; we want action and I would ask the Minister to ensure that CIE take the necessary action.

They could well look at the system used on the Continent for the transportation of merchandise. Are they satisfied there is not a place for them in that undertaking? What disturbs me about many semi-State bodies is that they do not think they have an obligation to make money. They think they have discharged their duties if they are just operating but they have an obligation to make a profit, to plough it back into their organisation and to create a better service. They should constantly examine how they might widen the scope of their activities to ensure they are giving the best service possible. Some people are advocating a municipal transport system in Dublin. That would take a large area from CIE and I do not think it would work. CIE have the organisation to run a transport system but it is up to them to consider how they might play a more effective role so that the taxpayers get the best value for the vast sums going into that organisation.

In the recent past we have been made aware of the enormous cost of fuel. As a nation we are very vulnerable—perhaps the most vulnerable in Europe—and it is vital that we use every ton of oil to the best advantage. We have heard a lot about district heating. While we had cheap fuel we did not feel it incumbent to exercise our minds on this. We have a lazy attitude towards innovation. I do not think we can drag our feet in this area any longer because people want a higher standard of living and they can only have this if we give them the opportunity. Central heating is no longer a luxury. Heating in all forms is a necessity. It was a tragedy that we had to revert to coal fires in many new housing estates because of the high cost of the type of central heating we had introduced in them. No matter what the advertisement may say about the coal fire it is both expensive and highly inefficient and it is a major pollutant factor in our cities. Seventy-five per cent of the heat of a coal fire goes up the chimney and coal today is very expensive.

The Financial Times published an article on district heating in which it was said that if the Government were willing to take seriously the fact that the era of cheap energy is at an end district heating is one area where they should encourage a lot more study and ultimately action. It said that to date government activity appears to have been largely confined to lower speed limits, higher prices and their campaign to get consumers to save energy with little attempt to get to grips with the real problem. It said that district heating supplies heat and hot water to a large number of premises or an entire town from one central heat source, that it is something which can, in the right conditions, offer a real saving and that it is something that has been relatively ignored. We must admit that up to now we were not terribly concerned because central heating was not all that expensive.

People still want central heating and rightly so. There is in the ESB a vast generating area and this generating area can, if the right type of boiler is installed, give something of the order of a 90 per cent efficiency as against about 45 per cent at the moment. An ideal start on a small scale could be made in the Ringsend area where a large number of houses are being built. Beside that there are generating stations which have vast quantities of water and which can install the type of boiler that is necessary to heat those houses at a relatively low cost. Here there is a vast new area of energy conservation. I know the ESB have done a study of this and that there are pros and cons but from the social and economic point of view I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

The Minister should make an indepth study of all the factors involved in district heating. It is not a new concept. It operates in most of the continental countries and in countries that are not as much affected by the high cost of oil imports as we are. We have an obligation to look at this. Initially it would cost quite an amount of money but if it were properly planned I believe the international banks would be forthcoming with money at a reasonably low interest rate. It would cut down on the expense of separate heating units which, to some extent, pollute the atmosphere. The cost of running a central heating point would be negligible even where there was not a generating station. There could be one vast boiler, possibly filling the dual role in a town of supplying electricity and heat. People are being asked to switch off lights and turn off taps and this is effective to a certain degree but people forget after a while. We must find a positive way of conserving energy. This is the way we can do it positively.

I look forward to the Minister in his reply making constructive suggestions in regard to energy conservation, what can happen, what he would intend to do and what machinery he would propose to set in motion to examine this matter. The matter must be examined. People will continue to want a better way of life and central heating will be one aspect of this. We cannot afford the very high cost of central heating. If we discover vast quantities of gas and oil off our coast we will still have the obligation to conserve these fuels. We have an obligation to future generations. The resources should not be dissipated. It is important to make the best use of any resources that we find by way of iron ore, oil or gas. In that way we will be carrying out our responsibility to posterity. When one has regard to our national debt one wonders what we are doing about future generations.

Mr. Connolly

No one worries now.

Mr. O'Brien

Borrow now and pay later—this is the system. We should have a very strong sense of responsibility in regard to the use of natural resources. Up to a couple of years ago we were casually drifting into the throw-away society, where one buys and keeps for a year and then throws the article in the bin. This generated a feeling of irresponsibility. If the oil crisis did nothing else, it made us face the reality that we are not our own masters all the time, that there are people and forces which we do not control and it made us reassess our situation.

A district heating association has been set up. There are many people concerned. I know personally a Mr. Byrne who is in the Electricity Supply Board, who gives a considerable amount of time to this matter. Great credit is due to people like him who work so assiduously in the national interest. It is heartening that there are so many people outside who are concerned with the national interest. This is important.

There is one aspect of heating which would affect the Deputy now sitting on the other side of the House. When he hears what I have to say he may possibly agree with me. There is a whole new industry that could be set up. The high cost of fuel has driven the glasshouse industry into difficulties. There have been questions raised in the House about the cost of oil and requests have been made for grants and subsidies. The ESB are putting in an additional generating set in the Lanesboro' area in the next few years. If they put in the right type of set there is a potential for a large glasshouse industry in the Lanesboro' area. I do not think the Deputy would see anything wrong in that. The cost of heating a glasshouse would be one-third the present cost. This would have the effect of bringing a new industry into an area. Obviously there would be the initial cost of erecting the glasshouses but the development would be ongoing.

An industry does not remain static; it either expands or declines. This matter should be examined seriously. An Foras Talúntais have examined the matter. I would ask the Minister to follow it up so that this type of industry can be developed. It would be part of the agricultural scene, which is important and it would be of great benefit to the economy. We all talk about inflation but we have to get down to the job of tackling it and controlling it where possible. One way of doing this would be this type of horticultural development.

I have referred to Lanesboro' but there are other areas where there are generating stations and where land would be available for the establishment of a glasshouse industry. A substantial volume of horticultural produce is imported. This could be reversed and we could increase our exports.

I realise that this matter may be one for the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries but as the Electricity Supply Board would be involved I would ask the Minister to check the possibility of having my suggestion implemented. What I have said may not be gospel but, there is a lot of truth in it and I am asking the Minister to investigate it. It is something new but something that we should be looking into. It is imperative that there be new thinking and new methods in all of this development.

The ESB have provided a very good service to this nation since their establishment. Industries have not been prevented from coming here because of any lack of electricity supply. All aspects of energy development have been considered and developed in so far as possible. Our rivers have been harnessed to the greatest extent possible and we have gone so far as to recycle power. This has happened in the Glendalough area where by a process of pumping up water in the off-peak period into a vast reservoir 700 feet up the power can be released at peak periods. This is good planning. Last year there was much talk of the development of a nuclear station but there is rethinking in this respect now that there are gas and oil finds off our coasts. However, we must keep all our options open. I do not know enough about nuclear energy to be able to say whether we should develop in this direction but, at least, we must endeavour to have diversification of sources of supply. In the event of trouble in the countries from which we get our oil supply we could be in a very vulnerable position by not having any other energy source. Because we are an emerging industrial nation it is of the utmost importance that we have a constant and a reasonably cheap energy supply. I understand that the development of a nuclear station involves a period of about ten years. Therefore, if we are to develop in this direction we must think well ahead. Because of the possible hazards involved in nuclear development much thought must be given to any such project and we must ensure that in deciding whether to have a nuclear station, our prime concern must be for what is in the best interest of our nation.

Regarding the domestic scene, we must endeavour to eliminate any duplication there might be. Very often we see one company vying with another to attract customers, while, basically, the same kind of fuel is being used. Duplication in this area is a luxury we cannot afford. That is why we should use only the source of energy that is the best in so far as our economy is concerned.

Down through the years the gas company have served their consumers very well. That is why I was surprised to read that the Opposition spokesman concerned objected to a subvention of £1 million being made to the company to help them in a difficult time. Because of inflation and of the increasing cost of fuel, the company experienced financial difficulties but because they were not a semi-State concern they could not request moneys by way of estimate here. However, the Government decided to help them by way of subvention. Perhaps the Opposition were playing politics in their objecting to that subvention but the people of Dublin would not thank them for that type of attitude because many people rely on the gas company for their domestic energy needs.

I would not agree with ploughing money into companies that were not viable but the gas company have managed to be viable down through the years and only ran into difficulties because of circumstances that were outside their control.

While people may prefer to have a choice in regard to the energy they use for cooking and heating there may come a time when we must rationalise in regard to, for instance, the various bottle gas companies. In other words, we may have to tell consumers that they can have any colour so long as it is black. At any rate, the aim must be for the domestic consumer to use only that fuel which is of the least cost to the nation.

I do not live in the tourist belt but tourism is a very important aspect of our economy because it brings in quite a large volume of money to offset our imports. This invisible export, as it is called, has always been a valuable source of income and has a direct effect on our balance of payments. Deputy O'Leary said we were pricing ourselves out of the market. If he went to England or to any other country, he would find that our hotel prices are still reasonable. They are more than competitive particularly with the continent.

We seem to be concentrating on markets from which we are getting slightly diminishing returns. Our Presidency of the EEC for the first six months of this year has gained tremendous prestige for us. The President and our Ministers have enhanced our reputation. Are Bord Fáilte cashing in on this? Are they doing a follow-up job? This is the type of publicity you could not buy. The European papers gave a great Press and great coverage on our organisation and ability to run this conference. With the right type of follow-up, this should ensure that we will get an even greater share of this market. By and large, Europe is bulging at the seams. It is over populated. When you travel in Europe you see the roads and beaches, and so on. The rivers are polluted. Here we have relatively good roads to drive on and very good hotels. Possibly we have the best food in the world at a reasonable price. We have sea and river fishing. We have a relaxed atmosphere which people from the Continent would like. To me this is a tremendous tourist attraction.

We hear about the sun in Spain but all you get there is a burned back if you lie out in the sun long enough. By and large, the food is bad and you get a pain in your tummy if you eat the wrong kind. People who live in highly developed countries and who are under pressure would like the atmosphere here. Are Bord Fáilte doing enough in this area? I do not know. Admittedly, the figures are going up and up. In that type of business I do not think they can go down, so I am not marking them up too highly for that. We should have a greater influx of this type of tourist, particularly now that we are a member of the EEC, now that we are "one of them" as it were.

Rather than going to Australia looking for tourists money should be spent in the European market. If we do a good marketing job there, we will attract them. We have our problems. So far as Europeans are concerned the Northern situation affects the whole country and this inhibits people from coming here. That makes the job harder but with good salesmanship, good market research and good advertising, plus the fact that we have the Presidency until the end of June, we should be able to attract more tourists to Ireland.

Apart from the actual revenue, this will make us more European. We will get to know the European people better and they will get to know us. This will break down any barriers or suspicions that may exist. Up to recently, many people thought Ireland was part of England, just a small island off the coast of England. I was always upset when I heard that said. That barrier is down. The market is there and why not explore it. We have a problem in the British market since the bombs went off. There is a certain degree of prejudice but we must work to get that market. Markets are now hard won everywhere. You only get out of a business what you put into it.

We have the obligation of ensuring that our hotels are of a high standard. I would be very strict with hotels which provide a bad service. I would have a list and, if a hotel did not come up to scratch, I would remove it from the list. I know hotels are graded but I often wonder if the grading is strict enough.

Farmhouse holidays appeal to people from the Continent. They are big income earners. It is a boon to people in the country that they can operate this business. Farmhouse holidays are very professional. I have taken a number of these holidays and I could not speak highly enough of the way they are organised and the service and civility provided. This is the type of thing which will bring tourists to Ireland. I am happy that the farmhouse holidays provide a good service and that people are well treated. By and large, all our hotels provide the same service. I believe we have the gift of being able to communicate and to treat people with respect and sincerity and a reasonable degree of charm. It is amazing how these attributes can help the tourist trade. I am not critical of Bord Fáilte. I am merely asking are they doing enough in the European market. I do not know. I suspect they are not.

Debate adjourned.

Business suspended at 2 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.