It is proposed to take business in the following order: No. 8 and, in No. 8, Vote 9 and Vote 42 (resumed). By agreement it is proposed to pass the Office of Public Works Estimate without debate. Questions will be taken from 2.30 p.m. to 5.0 p.m.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, in case there is any misunderstanding, I know the Whips have agreed that the reason for passing the Office of Public Works Vote without debate is because of the urgency of providing money for that particular office but that there is agreement that the debate will resume at an appropriate time after the completion of the Transport and Power Estimate debate on a Token Estimate for the Office of Public Works.
Yes.
I request leave under Standing Order 30 to move the adjournment of the Dáil for the purpose of discussing an important matter of public interest requiring urgent consideration, namely, the unprecedented increases sanctioned by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in CIE passenger fares and freight charges.
I thank the Deputy for giving me notice of this matter yesterday evening. I have considered the matter in the light of Standing Orders Nos. 30 and 48 and also the fact, as I have ascertained, that the decision to permit the increases in CIE fares was taken by the Government. Standing Order 48 is quite specific: No Member may anticipate the discussion of any subject of which notice has been given and the Ceann Comhairle shall have regard to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the Dáil within a reasonable time.
Under the Order of Business today, the main item, apart from Questions, is the Transport and Power Estimate which includes a substantial provision for CIE. This Estimate, therefore, gives the House an opportunity today to discuss the CIE fare increases, approved by the Government, and due to come into effect next Monday.
I may add that the informal committee on the reform of Dáil procedure recommended that any matter under Standing Order No. 30 should meet a number of criteria, one of which is that the matter is likely to develop significantly before the Dáil will have an opportunity of discussing it. In this instance, I do not consider that this criterion has been met because, as I have indicated, the Dáil has in practice an opportunity to discuss the matter today on the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power. Indeed, a number of hours may be utilised today for this purpose.
You will notice, Sir, that the notice I gave did not refer to CIE policy. It referred to the question of the sanctioning by the Minister for Industry and Commerce of the proposed increases. This is a different Minister and a different Department. What we wish to discuss was the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce was prepared to sanction an enormous increase in transport costs, both for passengers and freight, at a time when our inflation rate is the highest in Europe. I do not think a discussion of matters of that kind is appropriate to the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power and, while I and none of us on this side of the House wish to quibble with your ruling, I must say that we protest most strongly at this ruling.
This matter was put down yesterday as a Private Notice Question by Deputy Barrett to the Minister for Transport and Power on the basis on which you have discussed it now in the ruling you have given. I deliberately changed it to be a matter entirely within the competence of the Minister for Industry and Commerce; it is a question of sanctioning enormous increases which are having an appalling effect and creating more and more inflation at a time when inflation here is the highest in Europe.
I am sorry the Deputy disagrees with me but I am quite satisfied that the Estimate for Transport and Power is a proper vehicle for debating the matter. I should add that I have indicated, and I am sure Deputy O'Malley heard my comment earlier, that this decision was not a decision by a particular Minister, the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Transport and Power. It was, I understand, a decision by the Government as such.
You are not familiar with government procedure.
I do not think he ever will be.
A decision by the Government on a matter of this nature is taken only when brought before the Government by the appropriate Minister. The Minister initiates the action taken by the Government in a very formal and set procedure. While the ultimate responsibility rests with the Government the initial responsibility rests on the Minister for Industry and Commerce in this instance. We are not debating the Estimate for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
We are asking for a debate now on a matter appertaining to the confidence and to the domain of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that is an inordinate price rise that will affect the people of the country right across the board, that will seriously affect the standard of living and will again give an impetus to the already too much spiralling inflationary process in this country. It will have a disastrous effect on our economy. May I say that there has been a tradition in this House among the Oireachtas staff, over which you preside, that if there is any easement of Standing Orders or procedures that easement is to be given in favour of the Opposition. That is a long-standing tradition. I deplore that you were at such pains here to express that easement in favour of the Government, and in favour of avoiding a debate on this crucial issue here this morning.
That is not the position.
It is time these unwarranted attacks on the Chair ceased. The Deputy is long enough here and knows the procedure.
Will the Taoiseach tell us who put the Ceann Comhairle in the Chair? Will the Taoiseach tell us why the Government put Deputy Treacy in the Chair?
(Interruptions.)
Order.
Why did the Opposition take out their Chairman?
Would the Taoiseach tell us why the Government put Deputy Treacy in the Chair before he starts off with his sanctimonious aspirations about the Chair?
Is it in order to shout down the Taoiseach?
(Interruptions.)
We do not hear enough from the Taoiseach.
I was present yesterday afternoon when the debate on the Transport and Power Estimate was on. On one occasion a Deputy referred to the increases and he was reminded by the Chair that this was for a different Minister altogether and it was not relevant to the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power.
I have made the issue quite clear.
In the light of what Deputy Callanan says will you reconsider your decision since a specific reference to CIE fares was ruled out of order here in the course of the debate on the Estimate for Transport and Power and now you suggest that we can continue to raise it?
May I say that the inference and the reflection on the Chair that he is influenced by anyone is most reprehensible and constitutes a most disorderly attack on the Chair?
A Deputy
It is very honest.
Members know that this is patently untrue. May I assure Deputy Lynch also that in so far as it is possible for the Ceann Comhairle he veers to the side of the Opposition where there is an statement of doubt.
A Deputy
That is not true.
It is true.
In the light of the precise reference put to you by Deputy Callanan could you explain that to the House rather than give a generalisation?
Deputy O'Kennedy, I am anxious that we conserve the precious time available to us today to discuss this important matter.
We require a precise answer to the question asked.
The Opposition are very petty little men.
There are many people in the country who unfortunately think that this Parliament is irrelevant and a farce. If there were ever grounds for believing that, surely they have them in what has happened here this morning and in your decision. If the Parliament of this country cannot debate in an orderly way, with the permission of the Chair, a most appalling increase in charges for public transport over the length and breadth of this country, why are we here? What is the point of having us here? Is it not reasonable for people to have contempt for us as an irrelevant institution?
The Chair is affording the House every opportunity of discussing this matter, and I submit that we are eating into the precious time which could be used to discuss this fares' problem.
A specific issue was raised by Deputy Callanan that the matter was ruled out of order yesterday on the very debate you say it may be discussed on today. How can you reconcile that decision with your decision this morning?
Let us hear from the Chair.
It is a different matter.
For heaven's sake, how can it be a different matter? Resign.
Deputies
Resign, resign.
On a point of order may I ask you is the debate on the Department of Transport and Power Estimate, which was carried on yesterday, a different matter to the resumed debate on the Department of Transport and Power Estimate to be carried on today? Can you justify how you describe these two things as different matters?
(Interruptions.)
We will hear the Ceann Comhairle.
I am not aware that there was a ruling of the nature Deputy Callanan outlined.
I think you can take Deputy Callanan's word for anything he says here.
I shall investigate the matter. I am not aware of it, Deputy.
I want to be honest. I do not know if it was the Ceann Comhairle, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle or one of the various other people in the Chair yesterday, but on two occasions when Deputies on this side made an attempt to refer to the increases they were told that this was for another Department.
I will look into the matter, Deputy. I am not aware of it at the present time.
I can assure you I am not telling a lie.
On a point of order if you find this to be true will the Deputies who were ruled out of order yesterday have another opportunity of making their points today on this Estimate?
These matters can be considered.
Will they have an opportunity to speak again?
I cannot be expected to rule on hypothetical matters.
Of course they will not be allowed because they will be ruled out of order again. There will be some other Standing Order to justify the decision.
You have done your job for today. You have protected the Government.
I shall always do my best to do my job.