asked the Minister for Defence why Army captains and commandants did not receive the increase in pay from 1st April, 1974 equivalent to the increase for junior and senior executives of the civil service as was agreed by arbitration.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Army Pay.
42.
A pay increase in line with the civil service increase mentioned has been approved for officers up to and including the rank of commandant.
I did not hear the reply. I am very sorry. I could not hear with the references to subversives and Blue Shirts from Limerick.
The following is the reply:
A pay increase in line with the civil service increase mentioned has been approved for officers up to and including the rank of commandant.
That is a very unsatisfactory reply because civil servants got the pay increase and there was arbitration and the same rates of pay were to be paid to Army captains and commandants and it was not given to them. Would the Minister see to it that Army officers get this money that they are entitled to get?
The Deputy will realise that my best efforts will be made to look after the Army and to see that the best possible increases in pay in relation to the public service are provided for the Army. At this point in time—and I emphasise at this point in time—up to the rank of commandant we have got through and the question of NCOs and men is with the Department of the Public Service and we are trying to work out rates. It is not a question of saying, "OK, we will make 5p, 10p." It is quite difficult to get a comparison when there are different terms of service and different numbers of years of service involved. The House may be assured that as far as I and the Government are concerned the NCOs and men will get the very best we can give them. At the moment the matter is with the Department of the Public Service and is being worked on.
I am afraid that judging by the answer he has given the Minister is not familiar with the question. He has mentioned three times "this point in time". At the point in time that the civil servants got the increase in pay the Army should have got it and they did not get it. It is the Minister's duty to look after the interests of the Army.
This is leading to argument.
Deputy Loughnane knows that if there was an argument about whether I owed him £1 or not, that £1 would be paid. Equally, if Deputy Loughnane owed me £1, that £1 would be paid as soon as the argument was over. I am telling him that the officers are looked after and that, in fact, the case of the NCOs and men is with the Department of the Public Service. That does not mean that they will not get their money.
The civil servants got it.
The time has long since passed for questions.
The Minister has indicated that the increase has been granted to officers. Can he state the date on which the increase was granted?
That seems to be a separate question.
The increase follows from the grant at arbitration of an increase of 5 per cent with effect from 1st April, 1974.
When was the increase granted?
1st April, 1974.
The question refers to captains and commandants. On 1st May the Minister indicated that the payment of increases of 5 per cent to captains and commandants was still under consideration.
The Minister will not deal with that supplementary.
The Minister is either misleading the House now or was misleading it on 1st May when he indicated that the matter was still under consideration. That was in his reply to the Estimate debate. Now he tells us that they have, in fact, been paid this increase.
Or alternatively the Deputy is being as cute as a pet fox.
Item No. 11.
This is a very important question.
It may well be but it is long since past the time.
All I want to know is the date on which the Minister or the Minister for Finance approved the increase.
The Deputy has already asked that question.
This is important.
I am seeking to help the Deputy but he may not continue this argument.
This matter has been raised on several occasions. I merely want to extract from the Minister the date on which this was approved by the Minister or by the Minister for Finance. Was it between 1st May and today?
Since the question went down.
The Minister will look at it and that is that.
Item No. 11.
The Minister has indicated that the increases have been granted. Now the Minister is going to look at it. Is the Minister telling us now that he does not know whether in fact the increases have been granted or not?
This argument must stop.
The Minister found a mistake yesterday evening in the unrevised Official Report. A figure of £15 million was printed as £50 million. The Minister is not God Almighty. He will do his best.
This is a very important matter, a Cheann Comhairle.
It may well be but the Deputy must find another opportunity of raising it. Item No. 11.
We want to know, in fact, if the increases have been granted and the date on which the increases were granted by the Minister.
Sorry. I am calling the next business.
The Minister indicated on 1st May——
I have given Deputy Dowling every latitude.
We are trying to get factual information. Are you satisfied that the Minister is misleading the House?
That is not a matter for the Chair.
We want to find out whether these increases have, in fact, been granted.
I am calling the next business.
Maybe it does not matter to you, a Cheann Comhairle.
The Deputy may not obstruct the business of the House in this fashion.
This may not matter to you but it is a question of a pay increase going back to 1st April, 1974.
Deputy Dowling will resume his seat.
It is going back to 1st April, 1974.
Deputy Dowling, it is a fundamental part of the rules of this House that when the Chair rises the Deputy in possession will resume his seat. The Deputy must resume his seat forthwith or leave the House.
We are trying to extract from the Minister——
Deputy Dowling, leave the House.
I will leave the House but I will be back again.
Please leave the House.
You can protect him if you like.
Deputy Dowling left the House.
May I ask a short supplementary on my question?
The Deputy is putting the Chair in a very invidious position.
Will it be retrospective to the same date as the civil service increase?
I am calling the next business.
I am trying to do the best I can for the Army. This is nothing but a comic opera.
The remaining questions will appear on next Tuesday's Order Paper.