Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 4 Jul 1975

Vol. 283 No. 4

Financial Resolutions, 1975. - Financial Resolution No.3: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Resolution:

That it is expedient to amend the law relating to inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.

—(Minister for Finance.)

Mr. Briscoe

I was saying before the interruption of the budget debate that the leader writer seemed to be under the impression that Fianna Fáil were not interested enough to continue with the debate. I hope his colleagues will inform him of our interest.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce referred to a speech made by Deputy Colley at the opening of the debate on the budget. The debate, he said, had not yet been published. We had not yet got the Official Report. However, he quoted from the unrevised version and said that Deputy Colley had done a disservice to the country by implying that it was more expensive to set up an industry in this country than in the United States. It is very easy to take a section from a speech out of context. I have no doubt that if the rate of inflation continues at 25 per cent per annum approximately, and the movement seems to be up although I hope it goes down as a result of measures in the budget, as compared with the rate of 8 per cent in the United States, what Deputy Colley said will become true in a very short period of time and any industrialist comparing the rates of inflation is bound to be hesitant before setting up an industry here unless he is certain that we have grappled with inflation.

The people want a strong Government. They have shown in the past that when they are asked to tighten their belts and to make sacrifices they will do so. News commentators have compared this budget with the hair shirt Fianna Fáil budgets. The fact is that when Fianna Fáil acted harshly in order to get the economy right it had its reward in that it retained the confidence of the people. For two periods of 16 years Fianna Fáil were continuously in office. There was a short interruption. After a period of three years of the first Coalition Government Fianna Fáil were returned again. Then there was the second Coalition Government and within a short period that Coalition went out of office. The first Coalition were elected because the Fianna Fáil Government had to take rigorous measures in order to put the economy right. At that time the people did not realise the necessity for the measures. However, after the second period of Coalition Government the people got the message correctly and Fianna Fáil were in office for 16 years. I have been told by a person who up to recently was a Government supporter that next time Fianna Fáil will be in for 32 years because of the way the Government are behaving. The message must be getting through to Members of the Government because already the issue of whether we should break the link with sterling is being floated by certain prominent members of the Labour Party. Perhaps this is the breaking of the link with Fine Gael because the message is getting through that the people are not satisfied with the performance.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce quoted figures for unemployment as compared with the figures for other countries. I do not want the Ceann Comhairle to think that when I use this quotation I am calling the Minister a liar. There is an expression I am very fond of and often quote, namely, "Figures cannot lie but liars can figure." You can do a lot of things with figures. I have an example here of what can be done with figures.

I have a copy here of a report of the Committee on Social Affairs and Employment of the European Parliament. It gives the figures country by country and the definition of "young" is under 25 years of age. It gives the figures for the number of young people unemployed for the month of November in Belgium, for September in France, for September in Germany and so on. The figure it gives for Ireland is for the under 18 age group. The figure of unemployment in the under 18 age group from 1973 until 1974 increased by 125 per cent. The figure for the United Kingdom was given as 13 per cent.

I put down the following question on 17th June:

To ask the Taoiseach the percentage increase in unemployment in the under 25 age group for the year 1974 in comparison with 1973; and how this figure compares with the corresponding figure in the United Kingdom.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach replied:

An analysis by age group of the numbers on the live register is available at one date each year only and relates to males resident in incorporated towns. Between 14th September, 1973 and 25th October, 1974 the number of males under 25 years, resident in incorporated towns, on the live register rose from 3,830 to 5,571—an increase of 45.5 per cent. The percentage increase in unemployed males in Great Britain between July, 1973 and July, 1974, the only date available, was 14 per cent.

There was use of different figures from those which were available. I had in my possession the answer to the question I was asking and put down the question in the public interest. The answer I got was very different. I decided not to raise the matter on the Adjournment but I have mentioned it here.

There is another example in relation to unemployment figures which the Minister for Industry and Commerce quoted for European countries. I interrupted the Minister to ask him was it not a fact that the compilation of the figures varied from country to country. The Minister agreed. I can give an example again from this European report on social affairs. Recent figures of overall unemployment in the Community were also made available by the member states. Population criteria differ from one state to another. In some the entire working population is used as a statistical basis where as in others, like France, only actual employees are counted and they exclude whole groups like the armed forces. That makes it difficult to compare figures. In some instances the percentage is calculated on the basis of working population, in others on the basis of the total number of employees, in others on the basis of the membership of the unemployment insurance fund while, in others, the whole population is taken into consideration. With all these different bases, it can suit us to say our figures are a great deal better than they are in other countries, but we have to know how the comparison is made.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce said we were a rotten Opposition; I think that remark was as a result of something said on this side. I agree that we are not perhaps as effective in Opposition as we were in Government. The Government were a long time in Opposition and very few of their members had any experience of Government before this. They may be less, shall I say, responsible in their contributions than our party who spent many years in Government and know the problems of Government. I would say they are a rotten Government. I may be accused of arrogance now when I say that the proper place for us is on the other side of this House. We should really swop places. We were far better and more effective in Government than the present Government were in Opposition.

I have been asked frequently what would I do in such and such a case. Last January the advice given by our spokesman on Finance, Deputy Colley, was taken by the Minister for Finance in his budget, but unfortunately six months too late, and so the advice had lost some of its effectiveness. We gave advice in the case of the green £ and it was not taken until the situation had deteriorated almost beyond redemption.

I believe the Government are doing too little. They are not acting as decisively as they should. If people understand the situation they will rise to the situation. I have a feeling we will have a general election during the recess. Only the Taoiseach knows whether or not we will have a general election, despite the gossip between the rank and file. I believe this budget is an indication that the Taoiseach is preparing to call for a general election before the situation deteriorates more; it would be better to go earlier than later, and cut the losses, as it were.

I am worried that our creditability abroad is rapidly deteriorating. Our creditworthiness is being questioned. It is all very well to say that we should not talk like this, but these are the facts. If one goes to a bank to borrow one is asked all sorts of questions about one's creditworthiness. The Government, when borrowing, have to go through the same procedure. They have to prove their ability to repay the loan. I hope, when we get back into office, that we do not discover our assets have been put in pawn to outside interests. The Government must be warned about this. Hitherto agreements made by one Government were honoured by the next Government. That situation has changed in relation to the taxfree holiday where mining is concerned. We must be very careful not to pledge our natural resources to outside interests. A future Government might find themselves in a very embarrassing situation. We must be very, very careful. If the Minister for Finance is not successful in getting the money he needs to meet commitments I can see the dissolution of the Government coming. I can see the Labour Party preparing to break with the Fine Gael party.

This suggestion of breaking the link with sterling may be a device to attract money into the country. It is a device designed to attract the speculator and speculation may have been responsible for a certain inflow of funds but the funds will not stay long unless there is evidence of a positive policy and unless there is confidence. That will not come until the rate of inflation is cut. It is in the interests of the trade unions to ensure wage agreements which will keep a balance because, if workers continue to lose their jobs they will not just blame the Government, they will blame the trade union leaders. Trade unionists are not any different from other sections of the community.

They also realise that their jobs are the most important things they possess. If their trade union leaders take a high-handed attitude and say: "No. We will not reduce our wage demands. We do not agree with you that high wages are the main cause of inflation", the working people will say: "Where are you leading us to?" There may be an upheaval in the trade union movement at leadership level. The Government should say they are prepared to make it mandatory that wage increases can only reach a certain level. The Labour Government in England were forced to do it. It was anathema to them. People argue that if a Conservative Government did it there would be a revolution but the Labour Party could do it and get away with it.

The Labour Party should use their influence with the unions, if they have any, and tell them they must agree to wage restraints. Many people are asking who is the Taoiseach. Is it John Carroll or Liam Cosgrave? Liam Cosgrave was elected Taoiseach and people want him to be the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not refer to persons outside the House.

Mr. Briscoe

The Government must act in the interests of the majority of our people. Confidence must be restored so that industry will get going again. People must be prepared to practise restraint. It is not asking too much to suggest that the third and fourth stages of the national wage agreement should be renegotiated. I hope the trade unions will realise that their first duty is to keep people in employment.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce referred to the setting up of a national trading agency. It appears that this will be a good exercise and will be of benefit to small companies who want to sell on foreign markets. He said it will also be engaged in purchasing for small industries and acting as an agent for them. This is very important and helpful to industry.

In relation to the "Buy Irish" campaign it is important that the Government should create incentives for shops and stores in our cities and towns to stock Irish goods. Marks and Spencers in England used the boast proudly that 99 per cent of their goods were British made. This was a goodwill exercise and it was appreciated by the public. If our stores could say that even 90 per cent of their goods were Irish made this would generate a lot of goodwill. There are certain stores in the city which are owned by outside interests who have no interest at all in the Irish economy and who are only interested in making money. They should appreciate that, if the Irish economy goes down, they go down with it. There should be a far greater emphasis on promoting Irish goods. There are certain stores in this city which are of a—I want to select my adjective carefully—high-class variety and specialise in expensive imported articles.

Mr. Kenny

Exclusive.

Mr. Briscoe

They have shoes for £50 a pair or handbags for £30 or £40. I have often seen them and wondered who has money to buy them. There must be some such people, otherwise they would not be on sale. If these stores want to cater for those people they should at least have an Irish section. They should be setting an example. Many years ago the then Deputy Corry told us he could not buy a pair of socks of Irish make in Grafton Street. This was diabolical. The Government should devise some scheme to give an incentive to stores who will sell over a percentage of Irish goods. What price patriotism? I do not see much improvement in the stocking of Irish lines in the stores.

Many of our quality products are exported and we are not left with the best. You cannot expect Irish people to buy inferior merchandise. It is important that we should export the best because we live by our exports and we will die by our lack of exports if we are not careful. We depend on our exports and we must be very quality conscious. If this is to be offset by the best exports of other countries coming in here the effect is somewhat negatived. A certain percentage of the goods we export should be kept back for the home market. Irish goods are equal to and in many instances better than the best in the world. That is not a pious platitude. It is a fact. You do not sell in the hard markets in Europe and America unless your products are good.

There is no use in trying to sell inferior Irish shoes on the home market while exporting our best shoes. There must be some way in which consumers can have proper redress against the poorly manufactured article. They should get satisfaction either by a refund or an exchange. This covers all ranges of merchandise. People must be able to buy in the confidence that, if the article they buy is not perfect, they can change it. The Department of Industry and Commerce could probably set a lead by setting up some sort of a consumer association.

I do not know whether the Consumer Association are still in existence. If they do exist I would be interested to hear what they are doing. It is important that we should have a consumer association with good liaison with the Department of State.

The Minister with great satisfaction referred to the fact that we are exporting more of certain types of articles than we are importing. Certainly, I would hope so. Were we to import more, then in respect of every single item we sold right across the board we would be in very bad shape. There are things we sell abroad not manufactured in other countries at all. I remember some years ago when a chewing gum factory was set up here and we were exporting chewing gum to America, it was thought to be really something. Now it is regarded as a natural activity. We export many other items which years ago would have been regarded as selling coal to Newcastle.

In relation to the performance of the Government, as we have frequently said, they have excellent Press relations. They have ways of giving out little titbits here and there to the odd correspondent of this or that newspaper. I suppose this maintains the image of good public relations, which is probably very important. Our party are being attacked for the Government's inefficiency or that we are weak in drawing attention to the faults of the Government and yet within six months of our putting suggestions to the Government and their implementing them I find no credit is given us whatever. That is not true of the entire media but there are still certain people who appear to me to have lost objectivity in reporting what this party do. I have said on many occasions to people: "If you want to know what are Fianna Fail's manifestoes on this, that, or the other —while people know we are preparing them—we give performance, not promises." Basically that is what people want, performance and not promises. We have given good performance in office and will do so again. It is important that the Government cease this business of trying to please everybody by threatening to introduce dire increases in taxation and everything across the board, calling for sacrifice from everyone, and so on. Then they come in with something and everybody breathes a sigh of relief. I do not know whether the psychology is that used many years ago in Dublin when rumour would go out that the rates were going to be increased by 5s. in the £1. There were headlines in the papers—Rates to be increased by 5s. in the £. Eventually, when they were increased by half-a-crown, everybody breathed a sigh of relief; it is only half-a-crown. Perhaps that is the psychology but it is not what we would advocate. Rather we want proper and prompt action to deal with everyday events.

One of the hardest hit sectors of industry here has been the building industry. In spite of the fact that the Minister for Local Government keeps saying that there have been more houses built than ever before, the facts are that the building industry is in decline. One of the sad facts about this is that when the country recovers and the recession passes, which we hope it will, all of our skilled people will have gone away. If the economy in Britain and other parts of Europe recover at a faster rate than ours, then there will be there greater employment opportunities. There will always be employment opportunities for skilled people, particularly in a recovering economy. That happened here before when the building industry came to a standstill—all our skilled personnel went to England and by the time we were back in the swing of things it took a long time to persuade these people to return and restore their confidence in the Irish economy. That resulted in a situation in which there were many unskilled people employed in the building industry dependent on their skilled colleagues.

It is scandalous that the Government have done nothing about SDA loans—to increase the limit at which people can borrow. That is an absolute disgrace because it is one of the things that hits people hardest, people who have to raise a deposit of £1,500 to £2,000 on a house. Again, there was the announcement that the banks would make available loans over 20 years at 12½ per cent, based on 2½ times the applicants' salary while releasing more money, banks are very reluctant to give money even for this kind of purpose unless they are assured of fairly good security. Houses are very good security provided there are people to buy them. Unless we stop this decline in our economy, houses will no longer be worth-while assets because there will not be people to buy them. We experienced that before in Dublin when the corporation could not find people for the 1,500 houses they had on hand. That is one way of solving a housing crisis but not the one I would advocate.

Another thing which hurt people very deeply was what I would call the petty cutting back of the amenity grants. They amounted to approximately £600,000 only in a year but the amount of goodwill and encouragement it generated amongst local communities was enormous. I cannot understand the Government cutting back on something so important in so many areas.

There is also the question of school leavers seeking jobs. What are we doing about them? Are we devising any scheme to encourage them, even into voluntary work, or to work in a service voluntary capacity with an organisation such as the international voluntary service who help people in need. The Government might devise some sort of scheme to encourage young people to spend a couple of years working with a kind of Peace Corps. Young people are full of idealism. They want to be active and, if they are inactive, it can lead to problems. It is something about which, perhaps, we should be making more noise in spite of the fact that we may have been called an irresponsible Opposition for embarrassing the Government. We have an enormous number of people coming on to the job market and there will not be any openings for them. We must carefully examine the potentialities of creating jobs for these people, even if it is to be at a special rate of pay pending a return to more stable conditions.

There are many importers here, small firms, who employ a staff of, perhaps half-a-dozen or a dozen people. They have to pay cash against documentation. A number of them find that, when they sell their products on the market here, they have to wait three months for payment. Yet they have to pay VAT on those goods within a month of their receipt. The difficulty of getting the Revenue Commissioners to grant them certain credit has driven many of them out of busines and created more unemployment. It is very important that such people do not fall on the State under the payrelated benefit scheme even if it is a question of the Revenue Commissioners waiting three months instead of one for their VAT receipts. That is another matter the Government should be examining. Considering the time this House has spent debating the Wealth Tax Bill one would think it was designed to bring in between £30 million and £40 million whereas, according to the Minister's estimate, it will bring in about £1½ million. The Government, instead of driving capital away, should be doing everything to encourage it into the country.

In relation to the capital gains taxation proposals I am amazed that the Labour Party did not go for our suggestion that those who made a quick killing on the stock exchange should pay 50 per cent of their profit to the State and not be taxed the same as a person who had spent a lifetime building up a business at 26 per cent. That seemed to be a reasonable and intelligently measured amendment. These things give me a sense of frustration. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said that if the Opposition put forward suggestions the Government would not be too proud to accept them but we put numerous suggestions to the Government and they were not accepted. We told them on many occasions that the legislation going through the Dáil was not the type that should be passed in a time of recession. The Government are hell bent on getting their taxation legislation through. The result is that confidence in the country by people with capital has diminished.

I cannot find the words to describe the stupidity of statements which describe the Opposition as being disloyal if we point this out. We are telling the Government where we believe they are going wrong and events will prove whether we are correct or not. The record to date shows that we were right in the recommendations we made to the Government. On many occasions when I was a Government backbencher I listened to the former leader of Fine Gael, James Dillon, using the term "The Government are bust". Would we hear this term if he was a member today? I believe the Government are bust, financially and mentally. They have lost all credibility with the people. They know that there is a definite swing away from them by many sections of the community.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is not so. The Government's credibility was never better than it is today. We have a much higher credibility than Fianna Fáil ever had.

Mr. Briscoe

The chances are that the Parliamentary Secretary may find himself in the situation where that will be tested sooner than he thinks.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I do not think so. I am sure the Deputy would not like an early test.

Mr. Briscoe

Last year I predicted that the number of unemployed could reach 100,000 by Christmas. One newspaper picked up that prediction but it was looked upon as being way out. Unfortunately, I was proved right. The way things are going I can see this figure reaching 140,000 by next Christmas if strong action is not taken. The Government admit that other countries are doing better than us, that our inflation is worse than others and that an upswing or a plateau has been reached in America but not with us. We will have to do something about this because if we are not ready for this upswing in the world's economy when it comes we will have nothing to get back into.

I should like to tell the Parliamentary Secretary a story about when I was going to America for the first time in 1966. My late father told me that if I was asked in America if this country was experiencing a recession, which the world was at that time, to tell them the following story. It was that in 1957 when he was in America he was asked if Ireland was going through a recession like the rest of the world to which he replied that only rich countries have recessions; Ireland was too poor to have a recession. Ten years later he told me I could say to those people that we had prospered to such an extent that then we were experiencing our first recession. Only countries who prosper experience recessions. For poor countries recessions come and go but do not affect them.

We are down in the through at present and we must get out of it but we must not get out of it by putting into pawn every asset we possess. We must make sure that there are no secret deals about our oil and gas resources. We must know where we are getting our money from when we are getting loans, what the money is for and the conditions attached to them. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is extremely logical and I find it pleasant to listen to him as he talks with great sincerity and inner suffering. As Deputy Gallagher said, he has a lovely bedside manner but, unfortunately, the patient is dying. It is action we want and not a fine flow of the English language and beautiful prose. We must get this from the Government and they must take the necessary action, no matter how unpopular.

When we go before the people we tell them the position as it is, that taxation may go up but not down. We do whatever is necessary to restore the economy and people trust us. The Government should act in the interest of the people and not in their own interest by manufacturing budgets which can take them one way if there is an election as a result of hopes not being fulfilled in relation to foreign borrowings. It is no use doubling or trebling social welfare benefits if the money is not there to pay out. We do not want the situation arising where those working in the public service will get their cheques less a percentage deducted and told that this will be credited to them like wartime credit until the situation improves.

By the conduct of the Government and the manner in which they have been less than frank we know that all is not as good as it appears on the surface. One wonders what one will find when this party get back into office. The juggling around of VAT in the first budget created unemployment in the motor industry, and new car sales are down drastically. Punishing rates of VAT were put on many items so that the Government could take VAT off food. VAT, which was spread over food, was bringing in at that stage £20 million to £25 million a year and it would now have been bringing in about £60 million.

It was much easier to spread that out among all the people than to put 19 per cent or 35 per cent VAT on many other items. People whose jobs depend on the sale of these items were sacrificed. While the Minister says "Put your money where your job is" in my view VAT was taken off food at the sacrifice of the jobs of people in the motor industry, the radio and television industries and other industries, which suffer from a high rate of VAT.

In regard to the 2p off the pint of milk, does this apply to milk sold for the manufacture of ice cream, chocolate and other forms of confectionery? Will that subsidy be passed on? Will those products show a decrease in price or will this be taken advantage of by certain sections of the community? It is important to know what will happen.

I spoke to a man recently who has worked hard all his life and has saved enough money to last him for the remainder of his natural life. He told me he has decided to squander it now because he has no faith in the future. He is not leaving it in investments or saving it but spending it before it becomes completely worthless. He is travelling around because he has no faith whatever in the future. This is one man talking and he obviously talks to other people. This is an example of the malaise which is creeping in. The credibility of the Government has never been lower than it is at the moment.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

That is not so. The credibility of Fianna Fáil was never lower than it is at the moment, although it was very low on many occasions. The credibility of the Government and their members is quite high. We know what happened recently when moves were made to undermine that credibility.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. Briscoe

The Parliamentary Secretary obviously feels sensitive about my reference to the fact that I sincerely believe the credibility of the Government is at an all-time low. I am talking to people and I meet people outside, so I know this is a fact. This is mainly because the Government are afraid to govern. They are all watching each other and wondering who to blame. We have heard of the Crossman Diaries and there will be a few more out before many years have passed. There will be skin and hair flying at that stage and those who are friends today will be telling great secrets about each other.

We are all worried about the large number unemployed. We want to create a situation where industrialists from abroad will come here and find a stable situation. We have to stabilise and attract people from abroad. We have got to welcome people who will bring capital into the country. We are a very mixed economy. We are basically a private enterprise and many State-owned enterprises. We are basically a private enterprise economy. It is no disgrace for people to be successful. Some people like creating empires so we must ask them to come to Ireland and create their empires here. If the situation improves in other countries we will have mass emigration again. It is far more important to have Irish people working for foreigners in Ireland than working for them in their countries. We must attract people here. The only way we can do that is to show we are able to cut our material according to its measure. The budget will not bring our inflation under control. It is only firm and steadfast handling by the Government, the injection of confidence into our people and into countries abroad which can do this.

Mr. Dowling

I should like to add my voice to that of Deputies who have expressed disillusionment with the Government in regard to the budget and the nation's affairs. This budget is regarded by many as a yo-yo budget, prices up and prices down. There is no evidence that it will in any way relieve the great problem which confronts housewives and people in general. The Government have shirked their responsibility in relation to the economic future of the nation.

This is a conditional type of budget. It is the first time during my period in the House that I have seen a conditional budget brought in, one that does not make a positive approach. This budget relies on the action of trade unionists to ensure the implementation of the package. It is obvious when the Government introduced last January's budget that they knew the grave economic problem facing the country. They did not acknowledge that the situation was as serious as it was at that time. Instead they allowed the trade union movement to go forward and negotiate a national wage agreement. This was agreed on the basis of information supplied by various Government services, Departments and Ministers. The workers took into consideration the economic advice, the economic projections and those of the Government in relation to the future of the nation when they decided on a particular agreement in relation to the national wage structure.

The workers were grossly misled by the Government. Now, a few months later, we are told about the great crisis that is on the nation and the great sacrifices that will have to be made. This crisis did not occur overnight. It is the result of quite a considerable cover up. The Government are the best cover up men in Europe. They now ask for a review and it is on the basis of that that the effectiveness of the budget will be judged. This is a mean and irresponsible type of approach. The onus is now put on the trade union movement, who were misled some months ago, to make a decision.

If the budget does not work, the Government will wash their hands like Pontius Pilate and say the responsibility is on the unions who let them down. It is the other way round; the trade union movement have been grossly misled by every Minister in the Government, including the Taoiseach. This is complete irresponsibility, misleading the trade union movement and the employers to some extent in the wage negotiations that took place not so long ago.

How can the situation be rectified? The onus will be placed on the trade unions of doing the Government's job and making the budget work. The budget is not a solution to our economic problems, our inflationary problems, our unemployment problems or the prices problems. It is the most irresponsible shirking of responsibility ever known in this House. Even now the people do not know the facts of the situation because this is only the first instalment of the budget; the second will come when the trade unions decide in regard to the modification of the national wage agreement. The Government are looking for a scapegoat in the trade union movement but I do not think they will succeed because the workers are responsible and well understand the situation as regards being misled. They were misled on many occasions in the past not only by the Government but by employers and others. They now have machinery to pinpoint problems as the position emerges and the position is emerging that they have been grossly misled in the past. I am certain they will give the Government a fair and factual answer.

If the budget does not work, no responsibility should be placed on the workers. Our party do not oppose a modification of the national wage agreement or anything in the national interest to ensure that confidence is restored and the employment situation corrected. We hope some suitable arrangement will come about but the Government cannot shirk their responsibility and must make decisions at some stage. Sometimes unpopular decisions must be made to correct inflation and restore employment and confidence. The Government do not want to make unpopular decisions but want to put the responsibility on other people. I hope the unions will see through this and take into consideration the fact that they have been misled but I emphasise to the unions that the national interest is paramount and that is why, perhaps, they may have to make sacrifices to ensure that this irresponsible Government can continue. Bankrupt as they are, they are in power and many people are dependent on the action that will be taken. Certainly, it will not be Government action that will correct the situation but the action of responsible people, workers and trade unionists and others who will decide in due course.

No real decisions have been made in this House over the years. We have seen a variety of Ministers come here with high-powered speeches processed and circulated to the Press by the information service that is backing up the present Government. But for that service and the slants that have been put on some situations that have developed the people would be up in arms to a much greater extent than they are at present.

The confidence of the people in the Government has been shaken due to their irresponsible action. Only a few months ago we had the previous budget and the Government did not know then what the situation would be. Anybody would be able to make a projection six months ahead if he had groups of economists and advisers behind him, people with the latest information regarding economic trends inside and outside the country, regarding the amounts of money available in financial institutions at home and abroad. But that was beyond the competence of the Government; they could not make any decisions a week or a month in advance. We have had a variety of budgets, week after week and month after month in the past 12 or 18 months. At one stage we had a budget a day. When you have a Government that cannot plan for the future you are in a very serious situation. The Minister for Finance in answer to a question on one occasion here told us the Government have no plan for the future because of the unsettled situation and that until the economic situation is stabilised the Government could not realistically project a plan. You must have an aim and a plan, whether it is a plan to correct inflation or cure unemployment in the long term or the short term.

Now that the Minister for Finance has returned from his trip abroad, I am sure he has made many contacts so that he can borrow to offset the serious difficulties we have here. It is important that we have a true and factual assessment of the situation. We must have all the cards on the table and if the situation demands it we must take corrective action. It may be drastic action but it will be designed to correct the serious situation we have to face. The Government cannot continue to hide the seriousness of our problems. There must be full and frank discussion with the Opposition, with the captains of industry, with the farmers and others on a reasonably long-term basis so that every sector of the community will be fully aware of the decision. Only then can we have a plan. The Government are without backbone; they wish for the best but a wishbone is no substitute for a backbone and it is backbone we need to ensure a realistic assessment of the situation and do what is necessary in the national interest to ensure that undesirable economic trends which we can control will be corrected.

I hope the discussions that have taken place and that will take place in the House in the coming weeks and months will bring the Government to the realisation that there are members of this House who are prepared to go through the Division Lobby if the demand is made upon them to ensure that corrective action will be taken and funds will be made available, wherever they have to come from. The Division Lobby is the testing point when it comes to politicians.

No major decision has been taken. We have had the first instalment of a budget. The second instalment will be much tougher, if the Government last that long. The next instalment must be made following the decision of the trade unions. Maybe the first instalment is an effort to keep the options open in an election campaign. The sooner the people know the position so that they can assess it accurately, the better. Day by day they are getting glimpses of the true picture.

We now have a chance to assess the value of the reduction in the recent budget. There is an upward spiral in food prices daily. There is no guarantee that the reductions introduced on budget day will be maintained. In some cases prices have increased since the budget was introduced, items that could be regarded as essential. VAT has been removed from foodstuffs.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.