asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the reason for the delay in having the disadvantaged areas scheme revised to include the areas in County Limerick where social welfare assistance is payable to farmers.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Disadvantaged Areas Scheme.
41.
Discussions are still proceeding with local interests on the basis of additional information supplied by them and it is expected that a decision will be arrived at soon as to whether it is possible to sustain a case for submission to the EEC Commission to have the areas in question, or certain parts thereof, designated as disadvantaged within the meaning of the EEC Directive. I should like to make it clear, however, that the designation of additional areas as disadvantaged would not necessarily entitle them to livestock headage payments. Under the terms of the directive, which aims to vary the level of aids in accordance with the degree of handicap, headage payments must be confined to the most severely handicapped parts of the disadvantaged areas. In the circumstances and bearing in mind that the available data indicates that income levels generally in the west Limerick area are not significantly below the national average, it is doubtful if the area, even if it were brought within the scope of the directive, would qualify for livestock headage payments. As Deputies are aware, large areas of the western counties have had to be excluded from the headage payment scheme.
Am I to take it from the Parliamentary Secretary's reply that designating a disadvantaged area is the job of the EEC and pointing out the designated areas within that area is part of the job here? The Parliamentary Secretary has said the Minister presents the case to the EEC. Is it that the EEC decide where in this country a disadvantaged area is and the Minister does the designating if they decide on a designated area?
No. The Deputy referred to whose job it is. We submit a case for particular areas to the EEC Commission and they determine whether an area should be deemed to be a disadvantaged area. The Commission have the final say and then within the disadvantaged area we have locations that qualify for the headage payment grants. As this question relates to County Limerick, it is clearly indicated that, even if part of the county were included in the disadvantaged areas it would not entitle herd owners living in that area to the headage payment grants. The criteria vary.
Am I to take it from the Parliamentary Secretary's reply that if the Minister recommends an area to be included in the disadvantaged areas the EEC Commission can still turn it down?
Yes.
I feel the question being put by the Deputy would be more appropriate on the next question.
We shall have a lot of supplementaries on the next question.
This question deals with County Limerick only.
If you allow me, Sir, Limerick is not a disadvantaged area according to the EEC. The question I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary is, even if the Department think it should be in, if the EEC Commission do not accept it, it is out. Is that correct?
Under criteria laid down in the original directive, very few locations in this country would qualify for inclusion in the disadvantaged areas. However our Minister, by virtue of the representations he made to the Council of Ministers, has widened the scope and meaning of the term "disadvantaged areas" as used by the Commission originally. It was the Commission's intention to confine the disadvantaged areas scheme to mountainous parts of Europe, but by virtue of the intervention of our Minister the scheme has been broadened so as to include certain areas of this country that otherwise would be excluded.
Am I to take it that the Minister can tell them——
No. The Minister cannot do anything without the approval of the EEC.
I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say the Minister had altered it?
No.
We must get off this question.
These are very important questions.
I appreciate that, but I have allowed the Deputy a number of supplementaries.
Are we to take it from the Parliamentary Secretary's reply that the information leading up to the recent statement, which I understood emanated from the Government Information Service, that the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries were having a complete rethink on the Limerick situation, is incorrect?
No, it is quite correct. What will happen when the resurvey is concluded is that the Minister will make representations to the EEC for the inclusion of such areas within the disadvantaged zone, but he cannot do so on his own. What he can do is make representations to the Council of Ministers through the Commission to have the area extended if, in his opinion and the opinion of the Department, extensions should be made. That is quite clear to anyone.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary serious when he says what our Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries does is make representations to the Council of Ministers?
Yes. He puts forward proposals for discussion——
It is a peculiar term to use.
This is developing into a debate.
——the same as any other Minister for Agriculture in the EEC does.
42.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will consider including the 12 western counties which were recognised by the EEC as disadvantaged areas as designated areas in the 1976 scheme.
43.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if and when he will extend the handicapped areas scheme to include many low valuation areas which were omitted in 1975.
44.
Mr. Kitt
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when it is proposed to revise the EEC Directive on disadvantaged areas to include the 12 western countries for headage payments.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 42, 43 and 44 together.
I am having an examination carried out of certain marginal areas at present. Some limited adjustment of boundaries may be necessary in the light of this examination but having regard to the general terms of the directive and the strict criteria laid down for selection of areas, I do not visualise any significant extension either of the designated areas or of the areas qualifying for livestock headage payments. As Deputies are aware the latter payments must be confined to those parts of the disadvantaged areas which are the most severely handicapped.
This case is entirely different. These are all recognised by the EEC as disadvantaged areas but they are not in as designated areas for the headage payments. Seeing that the 12 western counties are recognised by the EEC as disadvantaged areas would the Minister consider them for the 1976 scheme? It looks from the Parliamentary Secretary's reply as if he is only going to give this to marginal areas. Anybody living in those areas knows that if you do that you will make bad worse. The 12 western counties have been recognised by Governments over the years as being disadvantaged. Here we are theoretically in but we are practically out.
Could I dissuade the Deputy from making a speech rather than asking a question?
I do not accept the Deputy's elaboration on this question. There are certain criteria laid down by the Commission to qualify for inclusion in the disadvantaged areas. The Department are satisfied that all such areas are included but representations have been made by Deputies and by public bodies to review marginal areas. Naturally, whereever you place a border the person at the other side of the border is anxious to get his farm included. I believe that the areas designated as disadvantaged and the areas where headage grant payments are being made at present would not be so wide if it were not for the efforts of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries in Brussels to get a wider meaning of the term "disadvantaged areas" as originally applied by the EEC.
We accept that the Minister has got the 12 western counties recognised as disadvantaged areas but recognising them is no good without designating them for payment.
A question please, Deputy Callanan.
The Parliamentary Secretary in the reply stated who would be in for payment and who would be out.
The Deputy is not asking a supplementary question.
The people in the designated areas will get additional grants as set down in the leaflet which was submitted to all Deputies recently. It must be borne in mind that so far as the EEC contributions and the headage payments are concerned, the EEC contribution is limited to 25 per cent and the Irish taxpayer is paying 75 per cent. So far as the designated areas are concerned the only farming group who will qualify for the EEC funds are farmers designated as development farmers. Any payments made to transitional and commercial farmers must be made by the Irish taxpayer. It means that this year on headage grants it is estimated that we are paying £13 million and £2 million on the sheep subsidy scheme, that is, a total of £15 million. The expenditure under the former schemes, the beef incentive scheme and the sheep subsidy for last year in these areas was estimated at £5½ million, so that there is an increase of £9½ million going to the farmers of such areas as well as an increase in their social welfare benefits, which are sizeable in many instances. Therefore, taking everything into account, it cannot be asserted, as the Deputy is endeavouring to assert, that the Minister is neglectful of the western areas. They are doing very well under the Minister.
I did not ask the Parliamentary Secretary what social welfare payments were being made. I asked if the remainder of the disadvantaged areas, the 12 western counties which are recognised by the EEC, would be included. I am not questioning the grants or the social welfare payments. I am asking a simple question about the Department recognising the 12 western counties as designated areas and not about grants. I did not ask about social welfare or grants.
The areas will not qualify for the headage payments.
Question No. 45.
I know that. I am asking if the Minister would consider putting the 12 western counties into the designated areas.
No, because they do not measure up to the criteria laid down by the EEC. I am assuming that Deputy Callanan has read all about the regulations governing the inclusion of any part of the country in disadvantaged areas. If he has not done so I will read them for him but I do not care to take up the time of the House in so doing because this statement has been submitted and is available to every Deputy. Deputy Callanan knows very well that the limits are very stringent as set down here not by the Irish Government but by the EEC, of which we are a member. Being a member we have to cooperate with the rules and regulations. We can, just the same as any other country, endeavour to have them varied. That is the reply I gave to the House, that the Minister is having a review made of some areas as a result of representations made. When that review is concluded a report will be made as to whether or not the disadvantaged areas and the areas where headage grants are payable should be extended in 1976.
Arising further out of the Parliamentary Secretary's reply——
This must be the Deputy's final supplementary. We have dwelt a very long time on this question.
The Parliamentary Secretary has not answered my question in any shape or form. He has gone on about grants and social welfare payments.
The Chair has no control over that, Deputy.
I am asking him a question in relation to the 12 western counties, which are recognised as disadvantaged areas. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries are responsible for designating the areas within that area and not the EEC. I want to know if the Minister would consider putting all the counties into the disadvantaged areas?
Deputy Lynch, the Deputy's present leader, could tell him that that is not the position. On our own we cannot designate all Connaught or Munster as disadvantaged areas and expect EEC funds to contribute.
These are not disadvantaged areas but designated areas.
I want to make some progress on other questions. Question No. 45. I am sure Deputy Callanan will agree that the Chair has given him every latitude.
Can I have your permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment?
If the Deputy would put a final brief supplementary I would like to hear him.
I will raise the matter on the Adjournment, if you give me permission, and if I do not get the answer I require.
I have no control over such matters.
I am talking about disadvantaged areas within the EEC.
The Deputy is embarking on a statement. This is not in order. I am seeking to help the Deputy.
I am asking if the Minister intends to review this matter now?
There must be some finality about this matter. Question No. 45.
If you wish I will quote from this document. I would like to satisfy Deputy Callanan's curiosity. I will quote the relevant part of this document.
I know all about it. The Parliamentary Secretary will not satisfy my curiosity.
If there is to be debate on this matter we shall have to find another time for it. Debate at Question Time would be out of order.
I am not quoting from departmental sources but from the directive itself. It states:
Less favoured areas in danger of depopulation and where the conservation of the countryside is necessary, shall be made up of farming areas which are homogeneous from the point of view of natural production conditions and must simultaneously exhibit all the following characteristics:
(a) the presence of infertile land, unsuitable for cultivation or intensification, with a limited potential which cannot be increased except at excessive cost, and mainly suitable for extensive livestock farming.
That is the first one.
The second one is, because of the low productivity of the environment, results which are appreciably lower than the mean as regards the main indices characterising the economic situation in agriculture. The third is, either a low or dwindling population predominantly dependent on agricultural activity and the accelerated decline of which would jeopardise the viability of the area concerned and its continued habitation. They are the criteria laid down.
We know all about the criteria.
They are the criteria for designation of disadvantaged areas.
It is very irritating to have to listen to such a long list when we know the criteria involved.
45.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries why farmers in Annaghdown and Claregalway, County Galway, have been excluded from benefit under the cattle headage scheme; and if he will now have these areas included in the disadvantaged areas scheme.
In accordance with the terms of the EEC Directive cattle headage payments are being confined to the most severely handicapped parts of the disadvantaged areas. The main area of County Galway which qualifies for the cattle headage payments is that to the west of the county to which the Corrib forms a natural boundary and where the land is predominantly of poor quality. The area to the east of these is less severely handicapped and it is not proposed to extend the payments to such areas.
Does the Parliamentary Secretary know Glenamaddy, the east of Dunmore or a place called Gurteen? The Parliamentary Secretary should ask some of his officials to make the journey to see if these areas meet with the requirements necessary for designation as a disadvantaged area.
The areas mentioned do not measure up to the requirements set out in the EEC regulations. The Deputy wants to make a claim to have his entire constituency included in that scheme but he knows that is a joke.
It was not I who included them. The EEC included them but the people did not get the headage payments.
46.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will extend the closing date for applications under the disadvantaged areas cattle headage payments scheme to enable the many small farmers who were unable to apply previously to do so now.
The answer is in the negative.
The closing date for receipt of applications, which was widely publicised, was 26th August last. The work of checking and inspecting herds is now virtually completed and it would be impracticable to reopen the scheme at this stage.
47.
asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will include Knockalougha, Knocknagoshel, County Kerry, in the disadvantaged areas scheme.
The review which is being carried out of a limited number of marginal areas in relation to livestock headage payments will include the area mentioned.