Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jan 1976

Vol. 287 No. 4

Financial Resolutions. - Financial Resolution No. 7: Excise— Mechanically Propelled Vehicles used on Public Roads.

The Taoiseach

I move:

(1) That, subject to paragraphs (2) and (3) of this Resolution, the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 (No. 24 of 1952), shall, as respects licences under section 1 of that Act for periods beginning on or after the 1st day of March, 1976, be amended by the substitution in Part I of the Schedule thereto (as amended by section 93 (4) of the Finance Act, 1973 (No. 19 of 1973)) of the following subparagraph for subparagraph (d) of paragraph 6:

"(d) other vehicles to which this paragraph applies—

not exceeding 8 horse-power

£4 for each unit or part of a unit of horse-power

exceeding 8 horse-power and not exceeding 12 horse-power

£5 for each unit or part of a unit of horse-power

exceeding 12 horse-power

£6 for each unit or part of a unit of horse-power

electrically propelled—£22".

(2) That paragraph (1) of this Resolution shall not have effect in relation to any vehicle—

(a) which is used as a small public service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 (No. 24 of 1961), and for no other purpose,

(b) which is fitted with a taximeter and is lawfully used as a street service vehicle within the meaning of the said Road Traffic Act, 1961, or for purposes incidental to such user and for no other purpose, or

(c) which is used as a hearse and for no other purpose.

(3) That paragraph (1) of this Resolution shall not have effect in relation to vehicles specified in Article 3 of the Imposition of Duties, (No. 170) (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Order, 1968 (S. I. No. 68 of 1968), as amended by the Imposition of Duties (No. 216) (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Order, 1975 (S. I. No. 5 of 1975).

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

Mr. Tunney

In connection with the proposed increase on road tax, I ask the Taoiseach, particularly since we have been hearing in recent months about national partnership and guarantees which workers had expected and had been given that the budget would not have the effect of increasing the cost of living, to visualise a rural worker travelling 20 miles to and from work. The best he could do last year was to buy a second hand fairly big car, and on the figures before me, from 1st March next his car will be subject to an additional £40 to £50 duty, depending on h.p. That is £1 per week. In respect of the increase in petrol tax, as and from 1st March he will have to pay £1.50 per week, an aggregate increase of £2.50 per week.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can deal with that on the General Resolution or at a later stage on the Finance Bill.

Mr. Tunney

I am sure the Chair will agree it is very difficult to distinguish between the road tax and the increase in petrol tax. I am trying to relate them to promises given to workers that any measure in the budget would not have the effect of increasing their cost of living. In rural areas workers will be faced with an increase of £2.50 per week and that is not in accordance with the guarantees given to the Congress of Trade Unions.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I would like to remind Deputy Coughlan——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would like to remind Deputy Fitzpatrick that he may ask a question.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): In previous budgets here the Minister's colleague, Deputy Tully, argued that increases of this kind should not be imposed on people travelling to and from the city to work. I would ask the Minister for Local Government now if he approves——

Mr. Coughlan

The Deputy should address that question to Deputy Crinion or Deputy Molloy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Coughlan must cease interrupting. Will Deputy Fitzpatrick ask a question now on Resolution No. 7?

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin Central): I agree with what Deputy Tunney has said about these increases. The Taoiseach said in relation to another resolution that one can claim against income tax. I am sure the Taoiseach knows perfectly well that wage earners are not allowed to do this. Incidentally, can cars be taxed before the imposition of this duty for the entire year?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. O'Kennedy

At the existing rate?

The Taoiseach

Yes, provided people tax them, which would be a welcome development.

Mr. Kenneally

On cars not exceeding 8 h.p. the tax is now £22. That will be increased to £32. Will a person who taxes his car for the quarter have to meet an extra imposition or will the tax be just one quarter of £32 or £8?

The Taoiseach

The new rate will apply from 1st March.

Mr. Kenneally

What will the tax be for the three months of, say, March, April and May?

The Taoiseach

I imagine the old rate will apply. It will depend on the horse power.

Mr. Kenneally

I do not think the Taoiseach gets the point. When a car is taxed for the quarter there is an extra charge. Can we take it the new tax will be at a flat rate?

The Taoiseach

It will be the same ratio to the new rate.

Mr. Kenneally

In other words, there will be a fine.

The Taoiseach

It will be the same percentage surcharge, or whatever you like to call it. There is nothing new in that. That system has been in force for some years.

Mr. Cunningham

In respect of large commercial vehicles—delivery vans, lorries, private buses which convey workers to building sites and so on——

The Taoiseach

They are not affected. The only vehicles are vehicles taxed privately.

Mr. J. O'Leary

Is the Taoiseach aware that this extra taxation will mean a substantial increase in the cost of living for workers who have to travel anything from three to 15 miles to work? Is he not further aware that in addition——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with Financial Resolution No. 7.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, I do not think the Chair should be so draconian about this. It is well-established tradition that these resolutions can be commented on in brief at this stage of the debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The position is that there will be a general debate and the Deputy is well aware of that.

Mr. Haughey

I am also here long enough to know that from time to time these resolutions have been debated at length at this stage of the budget and I think it is perfectly fair for Deputies to make brief comments.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Questions may be asked to elicit information.

Mr. J. O'Leary

Is the Taoiseach not aware that this imposition will mean an increase of £1.50 per week on the average worker who has to travel to and from his work in order to earn a livelihood for himself and his family? What does the Taoiseach propose to do to offset this increase?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with Resolution No. 7.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I think it is a fair question and I would like a fair answer to it.

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, is the behaviour of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in keeping with the traditions and dignity of this House?

Mr. Cunningham

Why did he not do your homework?

Mr. J. O'Leary

I completely object to the Minister for Foreign Affairs sitting there in the middle of his officials during this debate. It is an insult to this House.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. J. O'Leary

He is sitting in the midst of his officials——

Deputies

They are not his officials.

Mr. J. O'Leary

—— prompting the Taoiseach and the Government have screwed the workers and the ordinary people.

Mr. J. Gibbons

Sir, could I call your attention to the fact that among the civil servants in this House, whose presence here is merely for the function of giving assistance to the Minister or whoever is sitting in for him, during that last exchange that took place because of the infringement by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, one of the civil servants took part in the sneering and barracking that took place across the floor of the House and I object very strongly to it.

Deputies

He did not. Shame.

Mr. Haughey

If you are going down at least go down with dignity and decorum.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Andrews.

Mr. Andrews

With regard to motor taxation and the dreadful increases proposed under this taxation, will the Taoiseach say what concessions, if any, are being made to the disabled drivers, the paraplegics and so on? Do the Government intend giving those people concessions in the context of the draconian taxation charges?

The Taoiseach

There is no change in that.

Mr. Andrews

For the record of the House, will the Taoiseach say what is the position as it stands at the moment?

Mr. Dowling

They must suffer on.

Mr. McMahon

Is it in order for Deputy Gibbons to make the remark he made a few minutes ago? It was totally incorrect and the Deputy should withdraw it. It is not the first incorrect statement he has made——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O'Kennedy

The Minister for Foreign Affairs should not involve the officials.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask Members to discuss Resolution No. 7 which is before the house.

Mr. C. Murphy

Will the Taoiseach tell the House if the Government considered having a flat rate across the board for cars irrespective of horse power? Does he not consider this proposed measure might be the final straw for many concerns as car sales are going through a lean spell?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy will appreciate that it would be inequitable and entirely contrary to the traditional practice in this regard to have a flat rate.

Mr. C. Murphy

Will the Taoiseach not agree that in the past few years there have been many breaches of tradition?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would remind the Deputy that we are dealing with a financial resolution.

Mr. C. Murphy

I find it difficult to understand why the application of a flat rate per car rather than the graded system would be against any tradition.

The Taoiseach

The point made by the Deputy is not borne out by the facts.

Mr. Connolly

Will the Taoiseach state if it is only motor cars that are involved in the increase? What about mini-buses, station-wagons and passenger-wagons?

The Taoiseach

No, it is only privately registered cars.

Mr. Connolly

If a car were converted into a mini-bus, would that be counted?

Mr. Coogan

How is it possible to make a bus out of a car?

Mr. Coughlan

It is the transformation of the loaves and fishes.

Mr. Connolly

The Deputy should go back to Limerick.

The Taoiseach

The special rate for buses is not being increased.

Mr. Connolly

What would be the situation if a car or van were converted into a station-wagon? Technically it is counted a motor vehicle.

The Taoiseach

If it is for private use it is covered and it will be liable.

Mr. Connolly

Is it the situation that if it is for public use it is not covered?

The Taoiseach

No.

Mr. Connolly

What about taxis?

The Taoiseach

Taxis are exempt.

Mr. Lemass

Since I raised a point on Resolution No. 5 I made some phone calls and I now wish to raise a matter on this resolution. On the previous occasion the Taoiseach's reply was that these people would be compensated in income tax—I am referring to the small independent commercial traveller working on an agency basis——

The Taoiseach

They are not compensated but they are entitled to it——

Mr. Lemass

They are entitled to get back 38p out of every £1 spent.

The Taoiseach

What relief they would be entitled to would depend on their tax return.

Mr. Lemass

I understand that these people who are in the income bracket of £2,500 to £3,000 get 17.32 per cent income tax relief. Will these people find themselves in a situation, as a result of petrol increases and other taxes, that their income will be seriously reduced?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please keep to the financial resolution before the House?

Mr. Connolly

Will the Taoiseach say if hackney cars will be affected?

The Taoiseach

I have said no.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I asked the Taoiseach a question but I did not get a reply. My question is important for the workers. Because of the impact of the budget it will cost the average worker approximately £1.50 to get to work. How does the Taoiseach propose to compensate such workers?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please keep to Resolution No. 7?

Mr. J. O'Leary

I should like to know from the Taoiseach how he proposes compensating workers who will have to pay an extra £1.50 per week because of the increases in motor taxation and petrol.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That will be a matter for the general resolution.

Mr. J. O'Leary

Will the Taoiseach reply to my question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled on the matter. It is a matter for the general resolution or for the debate on the Finance Bill.

Mr. Haughey

I think the Taoiseach wishes to reply.

The Taoiseach

I will wait until tomorrow. This is a matter to be dealt with when discussing the general resolution and I will deal with it.

Mr. J. O'Leary

I submit that this is a fair and legitimate question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled it is a matter for the discussion on the general resolution or on the Finance Bill.

Mr. J. O'Leary

The Taoiseach is not prepared to tell the House how he proposes to compensate the workers.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 65.

Tá

• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Bermingham, Joseph.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Dick.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Clinton, Mark. A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dockrell, Maurice.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Esmonde, John G.
• Finn, Martin.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Patrick.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Keating, Justin.
• Kelly, John.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lynch, Gerard.
• McDonald, Charles B.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Sullivan, John L.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Reynolds, Patrick J.
• Ryan, John J.
• Spring, Dan.
• Staunton, Myles.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Thornley, David.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Toal, Brendan.
• Tully, James.
• White, James.

Níl

• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Brosnan, Seán.
• Brugha, Ruairí.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carter, Frank.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Murphy, Ciarán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrell, Joseph.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Flanagan, Seán.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Gibbons, Hugh.
• Gibbons, James.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Leonard, James.
• Loughnane, William.
• Lynch, Celia.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• Power, Patrick.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelly and B. Desmond; Níl, Deputies Lalor and Healy.

Question declared carried.