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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 1976

Vol. 288 No. 8

Adjournment Debate. - Kerry Social Welfare Centre.

I raise this question again because I was not satisfied with the answer I got from the Parliamentary Secretary. In the first instance he stated that the signing centre was in a licensed premises. That is not correct. It was a hall away from the licensed premises. This hall is used for social functions, dances and so on, and obviously is not and could not be licensed. The Parliamentary Secretary stated that the new centre was only half a mile from the old centre. Again that is not right. Perhaps it is, as the crow flies, but going along the road to the new centre is slightly more than a mile. I had this test carried out this afternoon and got the information later.

The old centre was on the main Glencar road in a most central position. Seventy-five per cent of the people signing there came from a point south of that line. Now they are asked to go a further mile to the new centre. At the old centre many people came from Cloone, seven miles away, Bridg, six miles, and Shronehree, five miles. On the west side from Curravagha, seven miles, from Droumalonhert, six miles, and Dreenereigh, five miles. To the east Derrinafena is six miles and Coose is four miles. Those are the distances from the old centre and now a further mile has been added.

Many years back I tried on various occasions to get a second signing centre on the south side at Boheseal, which would be much nearer for the majority of the people. This centre at Lyranes was picked as the most central between north and south Glencar. If the Parliamentary Secretary insists on having the new centre as the centre of operations we will have to press for another centre at Boheseal. This will mean two centres.

There is no waiting accommodation at the new centre. People have to wait on the roadside for the Garda car to arrive. This is a mountainous area, rough and rugged, and in winter time is subject to extreme storms and rain. The old centre was heated and the people could wait inside until the gardaí came. Many people have to walk to this centre and cannot arrange to arrive just as the Garda car comes. They have to be there long before the car arrives because the gardaí do not spend very long there. If the information I have is correct, these people are now being asked to stand on the roadway and wait for the gardaí to arrive. To my mind this is scandalous.

I am satisfied that this is a political move and nothing else. If it is in order to add the words "political chicanery" that is what I would call it. I represent those people in this House. I am trying to get the best terms for them and this kind of manoeuvre is not helpful. At this stage I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have another look at this matter and let the people sign at the old centre which was the most convenient.

I am compelled to give it the publicity it deserves in the local papers because, as I said, it is a political move. It is extraordinary that it followed a political meeting held about three weeks earlier. It was an unwise move and made things difficult for the people concerned whose interests have not been taken into account.

That is the reason I object to this move. I do not often raise matters in this House. I can accept most things once I see reason in them but this is and has been unreasonable. No excuse can be made for it. The statements made by the Parliamentary Secretary do not add up in this situation. I think the matter deserves the widest possible publication; it is unwise and unfair to the people concerned, not in their interests, but to suit the interests of political people, something which should not happen.

I find it difficult to relate the facts of this case after listening to the contribution of the Deputy representing this constituency because these facts bear little relation to what the Deputy said. This is the first time since taking office that I have been here on the Adjournment. I find it incredible that a Deputy should seek to have an issue of this nature raised on the Adjournment. I think I should be here on the Adjournment for the reason that it took me nearly three years to discover that this type of operation was going on under the jurisdiction of the Department of Social Welfare. That is why I should be here, not because Deputy O'Connor is trying to ensure the continuance of this operation.

The facts are that this arrangement was made in 1959 and it has continued up to now when it came to the notice of the Department. They immediately recommended that it should be discontinued and I agree entirely. As regards the people who are signing there, there are approximately 70 unemployment assistance and nine unemployment benefit cases. Most of them, as the Deputy has confirmed by giving distances that the majority will have to travel, will have to go to the post office because they are postal cases and would have to go there to cash their orders in any case. So, there is no imposition on them and the Deputy must be aware of that.

This hall is situated within 12 feet of a licensed premises and is owned by the owner of the licensed premises and connected with an overhead electric cable so that there is no doubt that it is all part of the one operation. When we notified the owner that we were discontinuing this operation, which was highly objectionable, he offered, in the interests of the local people, to allow it to continue rent-free. I appreciate his public minded attitude. Deputy O'Connor has said that these people will now have to wait outside in inclement weather and this gentleman by offering this rent-free accommodation would save them from that. There is no question of people having to stay out in inclement weather and Deputy O'Connor, with his obvious intimate knowledge of the whole arrangement must know that. The arrangement which has been made will mean that the people will not now have to come and wait for the guards to arrive for the signing; they can go to the post office to which they must go in any case to cash their money orders. The postmistress is there during normal post office hours and there is no question of having to wait around for anybody. Deputy O'Connor must know that.

I had thought of just giving the bare facts of this case but Deputy O'Connor raised the question of political motivation and used the expression "political chicanery". If one examines how this arrangement came about and was allowed to continue over the years and the fact that Deputy O'Connor has me here on the Adjournment trying to ensure that it will continue in the future, I do not think one would be left in much doubt as to where the political chicanery, interest and motivation lie. They do not lie with me. I know none of the people concerned, neither the recipients nor the gentleman in question; I would not know him if I met him in the corridor. But I know that we saw fit to commemorate by a stamp this year the centenary of a man who did away with the practice of people being paid in pubs 60 years ago in this city. Any responsible holder of my position, once an operation like this comes to his attention, must ensure that it is discontinued. All that disturbs me this evening is the thought that there may be other operations of this type of which I am not aware, but I can assure the House and Deputy O'Connor that I shall make it my business to find out if there are other such operations and, if there are, they will be stopped irrespective of where they are.

There is no inconvenience involved for the people concerned; the new arrangement can only be to their advantage. I checked this afternoon and I am assured that the distance involved is a half mile. I am also assured that the physical separation between the public house and this hall is 12 feet; it is all part and parcel of the one complex. To say the very least, it is highly undesirable that men should be brought into that situation in circumstances, as Deputy O'Connor says, where they may have to wait for the patrol car to come around. All these drawbacks are being removed by the changing of this arrangement to the post office. I am convinced that not only does it not cause any inconvenience but for the sake of the people themselves, their families and society as a whole, this type of operation, wherever it exists, should cease as soon as it is discovered.

I have absolutely no apologies to make. I regret very much that Deputy O'Connor saw fit to introduce the political chicanery element. It was not my intention to deal with it on that basis but seeing that he did raise it I do not think he would have to go very far. I would question his particular motives in bringing me here on the Adjournment tonight to try and perpetuate a system of that nature.

Deputy Richie Ryan put more people out of the pubs than James Larkin.

Am I in order in asking a question?

The Parliamentary Secretary replied to the debate and that concludes it. If the Deputy has one relevant question the Chair will permit it.

Yes. The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned he had to stop payments on a special occasion.

That is right Jim Larkin did it.

As I understand the position, the post office is inside the entrance to another licensed premises. Will the Parliamentary Secretary take it from there? The footage between the two of them is much wider but it is inside the entrance to another licensed premises.

That is not my information.

The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 4th March, 1976.

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