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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 1976

Vol. 288 No. 11

Personal Explanation by Minister.

On Thursday last I replied to a question from Deputy Dowling asking me if I would supply the United Nations reports relating to the action in which members of the Defence Forces were killed in action on United Nations service. In reply to a supplementary question by Deputy Dowling referring to reports on the situation in Elizabethville and the Kamina Airbase, I said that all available information had been placed in the Library of the House. Deputy Dowling then asked me when I had placed these documents in the Library. My recollection of my reply to this supplementary is that I said "presumably immediately following the Deputy's last question".

In the Dáil record, however, this appears as an unconditional statement "immediately following the Deputy's last question".

I have since discovered that the course of events in respect of these reports was not as I had understood it to be. Deputy Dowling did not ring my Department to identify the reports in which he was interested until November of last year, six months after his initial question on the subject and the reports were not, in fact, secured and made available until shortly before Deputy Dowling's most recent question.

I should like to apologise to the House for having unintentionally misled it.

I did not intend to participate in any type of witch hunt when I asked that the matter be referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges yesterday. I fully accept the Minister's explanation. I should like to point out that in May, 1975 I did ask the Minister a question as this was a very sensitive area, a particular area for which I have some responsibility and I intend to ensure that however sensitive the problems are in relation to the Defence Forces I will probe them and ascertain the facts in relation to many of the matters so that I will be in a position to speak with authority as time will permit. I waited a reasonable time after the question believing that there would be difficulties in compiling and obtaining the information. I then rang the Department and did not even receive an acknowledgment. I again raised the matter on 3rd March and I was informed then by the Minister, as stated, that the volumes were in the Library. I ascertained that the volumes had been placed in the Library the day the question was to be answered.

Having read the Minister's reply— he indicated at the end of the reply that I should have been more open with the House as to what I was getting at, rather than adopt a process of insinuation—it conveyed to me that the matter was of a most serious nature. I was appalled yesterday when I got the letter from the Ceann Comhairle to be told at the same time that the Ceann Comhairle was releasing the letter to the Press. I should like to know now from the Ceann Comhairle if I am in a position to mix this matter in public with the Ceann Comhairle on this issue. The whole question of releasing the letter to the Press by the Ceann Comhairle will be in question and will be dealt with now. It has not happened before that I know of. I have received many letters from the Ceann Comhairle in relation to demands and never before has one been referred to the Press.

Again, I would like to say to the Minister that I am thankful to him for the information supplied now and I fully accept his explanation that there was a mistake in his Department.

Normally, there should be no comment arising from a personal explanation of this kind except by the Member directly involved but since Deputy Dowling has brought the Chair into the matter I feel I should explain the position to the House. Deputy Dowling pressed me yesterday to take action in relation to some alleged misbehaviour on the part of a Minister in answering a question last week. I tried to explain to him that the way a Minister answers is not a matter for the Chair but on being pressed further by the Deputy I promised to consider the matter.

The Deputy had raised the matter without giving me the courtesy of prior notice and thereby the opportunity of looking at the Minister's answer. When I did subsequently look at the answer I did not find anything in the way of a prima facie breach of privilege on which the Chair should act. I wrote accordingly to the Deputy, the text of my letter being as follows:

9th March, 1976.

Dear Deputy,

Earlier today you pressed me to consider allowing a matter of a Minister's answer to a question to go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I tried to explain to you that the nature of a Minister's answer was not a matter for the Chair but on further pressure from you I agreed to consider the matter since I was not clear as to the nature of your complaint.

I have now had an opportunity of looking at the Official Report of the Minister's answer and I find there is nothing therein which would warrant action by the Chair. If you are dissatisfied with the Minister's answering, as you seem to be, it is open to you to pursue the matter by normal Parliamentary Procedure e.g. you can consult with my office in relation to putting down a further question, you can seek to raise the issue on the adjournment or you can submit a motion for debate in the House, etc.

Yours sincerely,

Ceann Comhairle.

Since the Deputy raised the matter as one of privilege I dealt with it as a matter of priority at all stages and published it having informed Deputy Dowling beforehand.

Furthermore, the Chair is entitled to defend itself. The Deputy has accused me of protecting the Minister. I reject that charge as totally untrue and contemptible. I also reject any charge of collusion with the Minister or Government. Neither I nor my officials had any communication directly or indirectly with the Minister or Government at any time prior to the issue of my letter. Indeed, I did not know what the Deputy was charging the Minister with. If it is inaccuracy in answering a question, that of itself would not constitute a prima facie breach of privilege and would not be a matter on which the Chair should act.

Deputy Dowling was put out of the House on 4th March as a result of his protest about the untruthfulness of the statements in the House of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Deputy Dowling's protests have, I suggest, been fully vindicated today by the manly apology —for which we are all grateful—of the Minister for Foreign Affairs to Deputy Dowling. I think the matter might be happily concluded now if in all the circumstances, the Chair was prepared to apologise similarly to Deputy Dowling for what happened on 4th March.

Deputy Dowling was asked to leave the House for issuing an insult to the Chair and refusing to obey the Chair.

Deputy Dowling left the House as a result of an argument which arose out of Deputy Dowling's statement that the statements of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in this matter were untruthful. The Chair refused to allow that matter to be pursued and in the circumstances it was perfectly understandable that Deputy Dowling and many other Members of the House should have the feeling that there appeared to be some element of protection by the Chair of the Minister in the difficulties in which he was. I think the fact that that feeling was held is vindicated and justified by the apology of the Minister for Foreign Affairs today.

The suggestion by the Deputy or by any Deputy that the Chair was protecting any Minister is contemptible and utterly reprehensible.

The Chair does not propose to apologise to Deputy Dowling for his——

The Chair can see no reason for apology.

Could this matter be examined by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which seems to be such a popular star chamber nowadays for everything that is said?

Order of Business.

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