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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 1 Mar 1977

Vol. 297 No. 4

Private Member's Business. - CIE Fares: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the exorbitant increases in CIE fares which were recently announced.

In debating this motion we wish to put on the record what we see as the reasons for the proposed fare increases which are now before the Prices Commission. The CIE deficit of approximately £32 million will not be reduced during 1977 as a result of the proposed increases. This deficit is a reflection of the mismanagement of the economy during the past four years by the Government. If the Government permit the proposed increases they will be contributing to a classic case of the chicken and the egg approach. By adopting these proposals the Government will show that they do not know which comes first, the chicken or the egg. The weakness of the economy, and the consequent increase in passenger and freight service charges, and other increasing costs, which are fuelled by the Government's policy, are the principal reasons for the mounting CIE deficit. The inability of the management to cope with these problems which are not within the control of CIE is no surprise. The breakdown of the unified approach which should be taken by those within CIE in attempting to cope with these problems is a further reason for the mounting deficit in recent years.

The recreation of confidence and dignity is required within CIE. The creation of a comprehensive system of passenger and freight transport is one of the essential elements in the economic development of any country. That is an undeniable fact. We must recognise that CIE is an essential national resource. It is as essential to the economic state of the country as water supplies, hospital facilities and so on. We should ensure that those engaged in CIE recognise its importance and its value to the country. The problems of CIE are symptomatic of Coalition economic mismanagement, and the massive deficit is the result and not the cause of current CIE problems.

Traditionally there was always a great pride associated with the people who worked on railways and buses in this country. Now that pride and confidence have diminished to such an extent that the sense of identity with this proud tradition has been destroyed. Not unexpectedly the workers react to the situation and their reactions produce more problems for CIE. CIE do not need higher fares and reductions in services. That will only result in the creation of a huge torso which will have an increasing appetite which can only be satisfied from an ever-diminishing number of limbs. If one keeps cutting branches from a tree indiscriminately, the trunk in time will wither and die. If one keeps cutting back in the cause of viability, as is now happening, and if nothing is done to appease this huge appetite, CIE will go bankrupt. The first requirement for CIE is Government action in the revitalising of our national economy. That is the long-term answer. There is a need for leadership and management now so that the pride in CIE which was there in the past can be recreated. There is a need for a change of approach so that the workers on the ground can be given the information to bring about the necessary understanding so that a wholehearted effort can be made by all for the national good. This despondency which now prevails, or appears to exist in the whole organisation should be dealt with by the Government and the Board of CIE. The breakdown of relationships causes the service to break down, resulting in a breakdown in the train and bus service.

When the annual report of CIE makes its belated appearance—it is always very much behind time—we never see any evidence of the essentials required for any transport system. These essentials are urgency, reliability and value. It is not good enough to be told that this line and that line should be closed because they are losing money or that we should have one-man buses. This will only hold the deficit at its present level providing fares and other rates are increased exorbitantly. Failure can only result from such an approach. As fewer people use the increasingly costly services of CIE there will be more closures so that there will be a reduction in the opportunities for earning revenue, higher charges will become necessary, the services will become more costly and so on in an everdiminishing circle of activity. I can see a situation where the only services operated by CIE will be between Connolly Station, Heuston Station and Pearse Station and they will be in very little use because of the extreme costs and the inability of people to meet the charges.

What is required from the Government above all is an effort to get the economy moving throughout the country. This has been needed for the last four years. Government action to alleviate the effect of the increase in operating costs over the past four years is required. We see the folly of the lack of an energy policy on the cost of the oil products used by all sections and sectors of CIE. The taxation policies of the Government, undoubtedly have added to the real cost of oil products—the increase in tax on petrol and also the levy of the tax on types of oil products that traditionally bore no tax. This has all happened in the last three years and the levy of tax on the other oil products which traditionally bore no tax started within the last 12 or 18 months. We should also remember that the consumer cost of oil or oil products in the last three years has risen from £200 million at the time of the oil crisis to over £600 million.

The effect that these cost increases had on the price index has shown in inflation in wages and salaries which in turn had to be financed by increased Government spending or increased unemployment in the private sector of the economy, which in its turn had to be financed by increased insurance and social security payments by employer and employee alike. In the case of CIE this payment alone probably totals about £10 million per annum which is a sizeable chunk of the £32 million deficit we hear about. This payment has been subsidised in the last 12 months by the taxpayer and by the House here. Now we can see why we argue that on commercial and national economic grounds there is no case at this time for increased fares or rates by CIE. The result of such a policy can only be negative. It can lead only to reduced usage and consequently to reduced services. This is a case where the patient's temperature cannot be reduced by treating the symptom— for example, the cost of £30 million in this case to sustain national loss.

The Government should be giving a lead to help reduce the cost of providing this national service by creating an atmosphere in which the economy can move out of the chronic depression in which it is and has been for the past four years. The liability of maintaining the properties and other fixed assets of CIE should be examined with a view to creating income-earning assets with these properties. The positioning of railway stations and other facilities in practically every major town in Ireland offers an opportunity for development second to none, whether developed commercially, industrially or for warehouses or other potentially beneficial use. CIE has the biggest and best potential property asset in this country at present and it should not be permitted to be a liability. All that is required is initiative and knowhow to turn such a property or such a land bank into a real income-producing asset. Everyone will realise how strategically placed are these properties in most of the provincial towns. They are generally situated in very central areas and are suitable for some form of development. I am not suggesting that these locations should be sold off but they should be comprehensively developed to maximise their benefit for CIE. This cannot be described as a unique proposal. If we consider Euston Station and Liverpool Street Station in London, to name but two, they have been developed without affecting the usefulness of British Railways. Consider also the way that many of the London underground stations in recent years have been dealt with similarly. This has taken place while they were still being used as stations. They are vastly improved and the manner in which they have been developed has brought more revenue to London Transport.

The Government can make such things happen here. In the Dublin area in particular the State must be the largest user of commercial space. It has been obliged to lease or purchase office space in different parts of the city in recent years, sometimes at very great cost. CIE were already owners of very expensive properties in this city which could have been utilised for this purpose and leased in turn by Government Departments. This would have brought badly needed revenue to CIE which would have helped to offset the increase in the amount of the subsidy they have been seeking.

There is a State or semi-State body or a local authority in all the major towns and most of the provincial towns in the country. Anyone who lives in or knows these will agree that there are more and more Government offices having to find space and accommodation in these towns. It may be the Department of Agriculture, the Land Commission or a semi-State body like the Agricultural Credit Corporation. In my town they have had to purchase in one instance from the local Convent of Mercy while at the same time a vast area of CIE property in the town was not being fully utilised as a result of the cut-back in railway services.

As we travel through rural Ireland we notice that such space is lying idle with weeds growing over it and in many cases in a derelict state. This is something that should be tackled, and of course this will require imagination and intitiative, elements which have been badly lacking to date. It is possible to do it and there is a ready market waiting in most of these areas which is under Government control, whether by State or semi-State bodies, departmental offices or local authorities. All of these we have seen expand and spread into other provincial towns. Even the local authorities have had to expand their office space and find more sites. At the same time properties owned by CIE were becoming more and more unused and tended to lie idle and in many cases derelict.

While the so-called future viability of the Dublin bus service seems to be related to whether or not one-man buses can be agreed upon with the trade unions, the increases proposed will reduce fare paying passenger numbers because it will be outside their capability to pay the increased fares in many instances, the massive increases which were announced as having gone to the Prices Commission recently. In particular, this will happen in the outer suburbs because the proposed increases will make the cost of bus travel higher than the cost would be if people were to share private cars and commute in and out to the city to work or otherwise. The tendency will be to utilise this form of transport because of the exorbitant cost of CIE fares on the buses in this city.

We say the Government must now call a halt to these proposed increases. A comprehensive energy and transport plan should be formulated and should have been formulated after the oil crisis three years ago. We need a wide-ranging examination based on national and local needs. This is vitally important and urgently needed. As we all know, circumstances have altered radically since the energy crisis in 1973 and the need for such an examination has been evident to us and to many other people. I suppose it was too much to expect that something so necessary and positive would be initiated by the Government. From their performance since the oil crisis I suppose it is quite possible that something like that will be announced any day now because of the possibility of a general election in the not too distant future.

People will know from experience that any such hurried announcement by the Government after four years in office is just another means of grabbing the headlines in an effort to woo the voters. This examination should have been carried out over the past three years. This has not happened and the people will readily appreciate that fact. For far too long the public have suffered under a policy based on tax, more tax and more tax again in order to reduce consumption. It has not reduced consumption but has caused massive inflation. This has definitely been the policy on energy and oil products.

We had the infamous 15p extra tax on petrol about two years ago which was introduced out of the blue on top of the increases imposed by the multi-national oil companies and the OPEC countries. They were bad enough and drastic enough without further introduction of massive taxation by the Government on all those products. This taxation failed to reduce consumption. I do not know whose idea or whose policy it was, or who believed that if you increased prices you would reduce consumption. Instead more and more inflation was created.

Increasing CIE fares at this time will be inflationary and, in the short term, will discourage the use of CIE services, particularly in city areas where the increases are likely to be most severe because more people in cities tend to use CIE services than in rural Ireland where they have not been as readily available. We put down this motion in an effort to highlight what it is threatened will happen. We cannot prevent it from happening but, at least, we can draw the attention of this House and the people to what was publicised in the newspapers and the type of proposals now before the Prices Commission. We see no justification for these drastic increases. We cannot discourage the Prices Commission but we can try to discourage the Government from imposing these drastic increases and having them duly granted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The public cannot bear any further increases. They will lead to a reduction in the use of CIE services which, in turn, will reduce CIE revenue. We do not see what this can possibly achieve for CIE.

Last week we had a debate about a railway line the Board decided to close down. If this policy is continued, we will probably be debating closures every week or every two weeks. Now is the time for a proper re-examination and assessment of the functions of a public transport system not only in rural Ireland but also in our cities.

Cavan): I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes that CIE's application for an increase in fares has been accepted by the National Prices Commission and recognises that taxpayers in general will subsidise CIE to the extent of £30 million this year".

Deputy Barrett has given a number of reasons for moving this motion condemning the exorbitant increases in rail and bus charges. Having listened to him, I have come to the conclusion that putting down this motion and debating it in this House are an exercise by the Opposition is a luxury to which it is entitled to indulge, that is, the luxury of calling for more public expenditure in the form of subsidies, calling for the continuation of two man buses, as Deputy Barrett appeared to do, calling for a continuation of lines which are uneconomical and which can be replaced by other forms of transport, calling on the Government to engage in all this type of expenditure while at the same time refusing to support the Government proposals necessary to raise the funds to finance them. That is one of the luxuries in which the Opposition are entitled to indulge. It is probably the only luxury an Opposition have and they are welcome to it.

In his opening remarks Deputy Barrett referred to what might be regarded as the golden days of transport when people were proud to work in transport companies. I am sure many people are still proud to work in a national transport system. If Deputy Barrett is to find the really golden days of the railways, he will have to go back a long time. At the beginning of this century or the end of the last century railway shares were looked on as a gilt-edged security. There were wise men at that time who invested their money in ordinary railway shares and took the precaution of buying preference shares in Guinness. Railway shares were looked upon as a gilt edged security, but all that changed. At that time there were few motor cars; in most counties you could count them on your fingers and toes. As things developed all that changed and when we came into the thirties railway stock which cost £100 was not quoted on the Stock Exchange. The railways were out of business. People who invested their money in railway stocks and shares which had appeared to be gilt edged were bankrupt; they had put hard earned money into them and left their dependants with nothing.

That situation changed and developed until we reached the forties. At that time it seemed as if railways were about to fold up and as if there would be no public transport in the country. It is true and only fair to say that at that time the Dublin United Tramways were doing all right and were paying their way. The railway companies all over the country, the Great Northern and the Great Southern—and there were two systems coming into the town of Cavan at that time—looked like folding up. Private transport for long distance journeys was still quite scarce or practically non-existent.

I think there was a general election fought on the issue: I think the Transport Bill, 1944, was defeated in this House by the vote of an Independent Deputy from my own constituency. A general election was fought on the Transport Bill and the Fianna Fáil Government came back to office. They acquired for public purposes the railways and the Dublin United Tramways. They set about economising and clipping and performing surgical exercises on the railways in order to make them pay. The methods they adopted were drastic. They closed down 700 miles of railway line and they dug up the lines and sold them. In this city they closed down the railway line from Harcourt Street to Bray on which in my student days I travelled daily between Harcourt Street and Dundrum. Every time I look at where that line was closed down I think in common with the great majority of the people in this city I believe, what an asinine performance that was. But that is over and done with. Even the very station house is sold and cannot be restored.

That was the contribution of the last Government to modernising and making viable the railways. I do not need to mention the railway from Tramore to Waterford or from Clonmel to Thurles: we had that discussed here last week. They were all closed down permanently in an effort by the Fianna Fáil Administration in their wisdom to make railway lines viable and make them pay. It all goes to show how difficult the running of railways has been over the years. I am speaking of a time between the beginning of this century and the late forties when privately owned motor transport suitable for long distance use was very scarce. Now railways and buses have to compete in the situation where practically every household has a motor car and some of them have two. That makes it all the more difficult for public transport to operate and be viable.

I said elsewhere that I regard public transport as being a mixture of commercial enterprise and social activity. I believe that if it were to be treated entirely as a commercial enterprise many people dependent on transport in the country would be without it. If it were to be run as a social welfare effort entirely it would cost the earth. Therefore, I think you must have a fair mix of getting a reasonable return for the services provided and putting in a State contribution by way of injection to the social element.

I regret as much as anybody that it is necessary to consider increasing bus fares and short distance rail fares. The Government also regret it very much and are doing something about it and the best evidence of that is that the Government provided in the estimate of 1976 a sum of £28 million by way of State subsidy towards the running of the public transport system in order to keep down fares and cushion the people against increases. In this year's Estimate we have provided a further sum of £30 million by way of the national transport system in order to subsidise fares and keep down costs to the general public. In addition, the Government are paying over to CIE, to enable them to run the free school transport service—which they are running at a profit—£11 million. They have paid CIE £6 million in order to finance the free transport facilities for the aged and the other categories of people statutorily entitled to them. Therefore, the Government—I am wrong in saying the Government because it is the taxpayers of the country who are paying it—are paying to CIE a sum of £47 million, £30 million of which is paid directly by way of subsidy and £17 million paid for services rendered to the State.

If the advice of the Opposition were accepted and if there is to be no increase in fares—and that is what I think Deputy Barrett requested—the taxpayer would have to contribute a further £13, £14 or £15 million this year towards running the national transport system. Is that what the Opposition want? Are they prepared to support me if I were to bring in a Supplementary Estimate, to ask the people, the income tax payers, the pint drinkers, the tobacco smokers and everybody who pays tax, to contribute a further £13 million or £14 million to CIE? If they are, I can understand their argument but I do not understand a great deal of waffle about not increasing fares and the way this, that and the other thing should be run.

There is, of course, another alternative—a massive cutback leading to mass unemployment. I gather that is not what the Opposition want if we are to have regard to their motion last week and the speech made by Deputy O'Kennedy when he said "of course, these railways could, and should be kept open and the way to do that is to provide the required finance".

Let us get down to realities. Not so very long ago Fianna Fáil described themselves as the party of reality. I have not heard that expression for a few years but it is not so long ago since they used that description. There are only three ways to help CIE this year to make up the running cost over and above the £30 million being subscribed by the taxpayers in the form of income tax and through indirect taxation. Another £14 million is required to make up for losses and for the national wage agreement. I repeat there are only three ways that can be done.

I want to come back now to subsidies because they can only be raised by taxation. Are Fianna Fáil prepared to support further taxation this year? Will some of the speakers who follow Deputy Barrett be specific about this and say "Yes do not increase the fares; impose further taxation and we will support you"? If they do that they will be doing an about-turn on their attitude to the budget a few weeks ago.

When the Minister for Finance introduced measures to reduce taxation by £50 million what was the reaction from the Opposition? "Not near enough; reduce taxation by £100 million." These are the people who are talking about more subsidies. Not alone were they not prepared to support the tax raised in the last budget to provide a subsidy for CIE to the tune of £30 million, but they wanted to reduce taxation by a further £50 million. So much for subsidies and the likelihood of the Fianna Fáil Party supporting the necessary measures to provide them.

Again I invite the speakers who will follow Deputy Barrett to say if they approve of a cutback in services to eliminate these proposed increases. Deputy Barrett was talking about a vicious circle. We will have a vicious circle if we propose that because I am advised that in order to raise the necessary money to eliminate these increases, you would have to sack 2,700 people straightaway. Is that what the Opposition want? Are they prepared to support that? If that is their alternative to CIE's proposal to increase these fares, they should say so. Even if they did that, and if they consented and approved of sacking 2,700 CIE employees it would not end there because services would have to be cut back, the income those services are bringing in would disappear and CIE would have to sack a further 1,300 people to make up for that loss in revenue. Therefore, there would be 4,000 people sacked. If that is the alternative Fianna Fáil want they should say it. It does not appeal to me nor to the Government.

The only other alternative is the proposal to increase fares in a reasonable way. A proposal has come before the National Prices Commission with regard to fares and it is under consideration by the Government at the moment. If Fianna Fáil this evening or tomorrow evening say which alternative they support it would, in my opinion, be of some help to the Government in their deliberations. I do not imagine they will do that. I imagine they will continue to indulge in the luxury of blowing hot and cold of saying "Spend more money but do not raise taxation". That is their luxury at the moment; that is their entitlement.

A very small percentage of the people who use public transport pay the full fare. That is as it should be. In Dublin, as Deputies opposite know, there are concessionary fares. A 20p fare from Tallaght to the city centre costs 40p per day or £2 for a five-day week. If a five-day concessionary ticket is bought that costs £1.60. The purchaser might decide to buy an unlimited fare for a month. This will cost him £9 and he can travel nonstop on buses and by rail.

In his opening remarks Deputy Barrett seemed to suggest that is was the handling of the economy by this Government that had CIE so much in debt. I reject that. It could be argued that the money available and in circulation, and the number of people who have increased incomes and are spending it on purchasing their own transport is hitting the national transport system. If we are to compare the performance of CIE with comparable cross-channel transport undertakings we find that CIE are doing reasonably well and are doing better than some cities across the water. In the United Kingdom the rail subsidy increased from £75 million in 1970 to £340 million in 1975. The bus subsidy increased from £10 million in 1972 to £135 million. Our subsidies increased from about £6 million in 1971-72 to £13 million at the present time. The bus fares in Glasgow increased between 1972 and 1977 by 125 per cent for certain fares, 143 per cent for others and 156 per cent for others. There may be certain circumstances prevailing in Belfast and I will not rely on it as an example. In Liverpool the bus fares increased by 133 per cent, 180 per cent and 200 per cent. In Manchester they have increase by as much as 200 per cent. CIE fares have been increased, without the proposed increases, by 100 per cent and in respect of one class of fare by 86 per cent. That is the performance of CIE compared with their counterparts in British cities. It is obvious that the transport system is in trouble the world over. It is in trouble in Britain and in Germany, as the Deputies opposite very well know.

The next question I ask the House to consider is what are CIE doing to improve the situation? I am not happy and the Government are not happy with the existing or the proposed fares. I believe the present management of CIE are doing a reasonably good job. They have engaged in productivity schemes and deals with the trade unions during the past few years. Their productivity deals have worked out well and have resulted in the work-force being substantially reduced without one enforced redundancy. As the Deputies opposite know, delicate negotiations are going on at the moment between the management and the unions in regard to one-man buses. I am afraid I must interpret Deputy Barrett's contribution as trying to bedevil those negotiations.

(Cavan): He asked in a sneering sort of way: “What is the use of this? If you cut down a bit of a line and put one man on a bus will that get you anywhere?” He was playing the game, which the Opposition are entitled to play but which is not in the national interest, of trying to bedevil negotiations like that, which are being worked out in order to get worthwhile productivity deals.

This is a limited debate. I regard the national transport system as one that has an element of commercial enterprise in it and which has a social welfare input as well. I believe it is the duty of the Government and of CIE to maintain a reasonable, efficient and economical service. I believe that in going to the extent of £30 million in taxpayers' money the Government are going as far as any Government can reasonably go in asking every person in the country, the poor as well as the not so poor, to contribute this sum in subsidy. That is as far as they go. Notwithstanding the cutbacks that have taken place and the productivity agreements that have been negotiated, £14 million is necessary.

I again ask the Opposition to say if they are prepared to provide that sum by subsidies and raise the necessary money to provide those subsidies by taxation. If that does not appeal to them are they prepared to enforce the necessary cutbacks, wholesale sackings and consequential redundancies which will make up this £14 million? If they are not, are they prepared to agree to the reasonable increase in fares which CIE have sought?

Those are the alternatives open to the Government. Those are the alternatives which the Government will consider. They will not be put off a mature consideration of those alternatives by the failure of Fianna Fáil to be realistic or honest in this debate. They will not be put off a fair and a mature consideration of those alternatives even if Fianna Fáil come in here and play election politics with the situation in which CIE find themselves. The Government, having considered the present situation of CIE and the alternatives open to them, will come to a mature decision and make it known.

I had hoped, in order to make my contribution helpful, to follow my usual custom of endeavouring in some way to enlighten the Government as to how they might improve a very bad situation. If I say my good intentions and my traditional attitude in that regard have been disturbed by the appalling performance of the Minister, whose responsibility it is to help CIE out of their problems, I am sure it will not be taken as an understatement. It speaks for the delicacy of the case the Minister endeavoured to make when one sees that in 1977 he tried to attribute all the present transport ills in the country to a mistake which was made, which he described with his customary authority as an asinine performance of some former CIE executive 25 to 30 years ago. It speaks for the lack of forward-looking approach which we should have and which is necessary if we are to save CIE from all the trouble the Minister attaches to them.

I listened to the contribution made by our spokesman, Deputy Barrett. The report will show that the Minister proceeded to distort what was a useful and helpful contribution by Deputy Barrett. He set up cockshots of his own so that he could knock them down. He sat down then, happy in the thought that he is purer than pure in relation to his portfolio, that he is protecting it from the politicians who apparently should not be in the House and that if it is left to him and kept away from any contributions which Fianna Fáil speakers can make all will be well with CIE.

I should now like to deal with the Minister's suggestion about what will arise if the terms of Deputy Barrett's motion are accepted. The Minister has responsibility in this area and he is expected to have a horizon which comprehends all the advantages, disadvantages, difficulties and attractions which are open. He has told us that in his vision there is no hope for CIE, there is no protection for the commuter in the implementation of this proposed 25 per cent increase unless we accept one or all of the following three propositions: (1) that there must be an increased subsidy of £14 million which, as far as he is concerned, is not on; (2) that we agree to the unemployment of 2,700 people or (3) that we have a cut-back in services. The Minister maintains that Deputy Barrett wants those things to happen.

From what the Minister has said in reply to Deputy Barrett's motion it is obvious that he came in with preconceived ideas and did not listen to what Deputy Barrett said. Deputy Barrett did not mention any of those three matters but rather expressed his fear that because of the application of the 25 per cent increase CIE would be losing a volume of trade and traffic which would necessitate that which the Minister fears. What Deputy Barrett presented is a situation which is acceptable to any businessman engaged in providing a service. It is accepted that if there is a diminishing demand for a product any proposal to increase the cost of that product automatically means a slackening off rather than an improvement in the demand for it. Does the Minister accept that proposition or does he accept that, as he stated, only very few people pay the full fare? That is the Minister's philosophy of transport here, that the unfortunate working class man in my constituency under the proposed increase will have for himself and two school going children an additional 80p per week taken from his pay packet. According to the Minister this is the type of person who should carry the burden and the Minister is happy to advocate that there should be no departure from that position. That man contributes as much to the subsidy as anybody else.

The three points made by the Minister are sacred to him. He has told us that there cannot be any further increase in the subsidy, there cannot be any unemployment and there cannot be any cut-back in service. He does not accept Deputy Barrett's point that if fares were reduced more activity would be generated and there would be a better intake and more revenue for CIE. Deputy Barrett's motion reads as follows:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the exorbitant increases in CIE fares which were recently announced.

The Minister's amendment states:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"notes that CIE's application for an increase in fares has been accepted by the National Prices Commission and recognises that taxpayers in general will subsidise CIE to the extent of £30m. this year."

We gather from the Minister that because there can be no departure from the terms of his amendment, which to him are principles but to us are nothing, the increases must take place. When these increases were announced early in February the Fianna Fáil members of Dublin Corporation convened a meeting under the chairmanship of Deputy Seán Moore. Arising out of that meeting we notified the National Prices Commission of our concern about this matter and requested that they hear us on it. The National Prices Commission, in the course of a letter dated 21st February, notified us that they were prepared to meet us. The last sentence of that letter stated that before setting a date for the meeting they wanted the group's suggestions submitted in writing. Are we wasting our time doing that? Has the Minister had consultations with the National Prices Commission? Apparently, he has given his blessing to the increase. He does not see any way out of the 25 per cent increase. Has he indicated to them his acceptance of the case presented? Are the National Prices Commission indulging in a time-wasting exercise with the Fianna Fáil members of Dublin Corporation who represent the biggest group on that body?

I hope the Minister will indicate to Government speakers what the position is before they reply to this contribution. The Minister turned a deaf ear to the case presented by Deputy Barrett and said his suggestions were not on. To suggest that a greater volume of traffic can be generated by not applying such an increase, according to the Minister, is a fallacy. In the scheme of his economic thinking, that is not on.

The Minister indulged in prattle about Fianna Fáil wanting to disemploy 2,700 CIE workers. We had from him the same type of prattle about Fianna Fáil wanting to save on the one hand and to spend more money on the other. We also have had from him the equally puerile prattle about Fianna Fáil wanting a cutback in services. People who know Fianna Fáil's record will realise that the Minister's accusations are concoctions, unfounded and deliberately used to defend what the Minister knows to be a delicate situation.

If CIE are to survive they will not do so by taking from the head of a typical family in my constituency, a man working in the central city area and sending two senior cycle students to college, 10 per cent of his weekly take home pay. This man's net earnings, after tax amount to £40 a week and the proposed 25 per cent increase in CIE fares will mean another £1 a week out of his pocket, making a total of £4 per week. That situation never arose under Fianna Fáil. Never was a worker, skilled or unskilled, required to pay a tenth of his wages or salary to travel to work and to send two of his children to school.

The Minister is insensitive to any suggestion from this side of the House. He did not want to hear the positive statement made by Deputy Barrett. When Deputy Barrett said we are living in difficult economic times and that we have been for the past four years, the Minister seemed to suggest that was a figment of Deputy Barrett's imagination. Apparently he does not appreciate that what Deputy Barrett said is no more than a repetition of what has been said ad infinitum by the Taoiseach, by the Minister for Finance and by the Minister now in the House. According to him, this is something Deputy Barrett thought up on the eve of an election. The election will come, buíochas mór le Dia, and the electorate will speak. None of us knows how they will speak but some of us have an idea of what will happen.

The Minister suggested that Deputy Barrett tried to sabotage the one-man bus proposal. That was the innuendo in the Minister's statement. The record will show where the truth lies. Perhaps what went on behind the scenes between the Minister and the NPC— obviously something did—is not what I suspect, but having listened to the Minister tonight I will be suggesting to the leader of our group in Dublin Corporation that I have a little more to do than to waste my time making suggestions to the NPC on this matter. The Minister said tonight that these increases must be imposed and I can only assume that some of his officials said to the NPC: "Tell the Fianna Fáil people to come in, listen to them, but they are only wasting their time."

I speak with a certain parochial or metropolitan outlook because of my concern for the commuters of Dublin. Because of the unfair increases in fares. CIE are losing business and unless the situation is arrested the time is fast approaching when the only form of transport which will be attractive to the people of Dublin will be one completely subsidised from the Central Fund. At the moment, only a very small percentage of the people who use CIE transport pay full fare and what I am seeking is a system that would be equitable, not one that breaks the backs of the people on whom we are all depending.

There are aspects of the situation in Dublin that for the life of me I cannot understand. Any economies that can be devised will contribute to the position which we all want, one in which the service will be cheaper. There must be a departure from the traditional approach of CIE. Over the last few months I have talked to people about CIE and I have heard certain epithets which I could not use in this House. This is how the commuter feels. He simply wants to be transported from point A to point B, point B invariably being his place of employment, involving perhaps a journey of three or four miles. The commuter is not terribly pushed as to the luxury or comfort of his journey. Anything would be better than standing for half an hour on the windswept Navan Road waiting for a bus to come, a bus which when it comes is invariably full. He would be happy to have a lift in a van or a car. I can be accused of saying that anything at all is good enough for the Dublin commuter but when we cannot have the ideal situation to which we would all aspire we will have to satisfy the immediate need of the commuter, even if that means using a vechile of lesser quality, of poorer upholstery. We will have to supply the service which I have seen operating in other capital cities, where possibly the the commuter will be required to stand. I do not know the position regarding insurance in other countries and how it compares with the situation here. I have heard a conductor say that they are not allowed to have more than three people standing. This is a situation which needs to be examined in relation to the accidents, if any, that have occurred as a result of that. We should look for a form of transport which will alleviate the suffering of the commuter and will help in reducing for him the agonising minutes and half hours standing on the roadside.

The Deputy has three minutes left.

We should examine the rank folly in the routing of the 12 bus which has a terminus in Cabra and also has a terminus on the far side of the city in Rialto. Because of the appalling traffic situation it is absolutely impossible for these buses to maintain any schedule and we must have perimeter bases. Having regard to the hardship which the commuter has endured over the last couple of years, he would be quite happy to be brought to within a few hundred yards of the centre of the city. I regret that I have to talk in these terms and suggest these emergency-type proposals but as they say in Irish "Nuair a cruann ar an gcailleach caithfidh sí rith". Practically anything would be better than that which we have at the moment. CIE are now indicating that their present services can be maintained only by the imposition of an additional 25 per cent while under the terms of the national wage agreement the workers get only 10 or 12½ per cent.

It is time to say to trade unions that their understandable concern for the continuing employment of personnel can be best served by generating more activity so that we can employ more people. They have evidence now of a fading and failing CIE. If they are to protect employment and if people are to be catered for in an appropriate and desirable fashion there must be a reassessment of the whole position and of the approach of the Minister and the three options which he suggests. If that is the best there is on offer then, go bhfóire Dia ar CIE agus go bhfóire Dia ar mhuintir Átha Cliath agus na daoine eile atá ag brath ar CIE chun iad a thabhairt ar scoil, ar obair, ar ospidéal nó áiteanna eile—iad sin nach bhfuil gluaisteáin acu, iad sin nach bhfuil rothair acu, iad sin atá leis na blianta ag iarraidh dul ó áit go háit agus iad ag brath ar CIE.

I am saddened here this evening. I came along and spent an hour and a half hoping that we might hear some words of wisdom from the Opposition about how we might solve the problem. We are all concerned about increases. We listened to Deputy Barrett for half an hour and then to Deputy Tunney for another half an hour telling us all about why Deputy Barrett said nothing. He spoke about generating some sort of traffic; obviously he is not aware of what is happening in CIE. It is easy to knock semi-State bodies. This is the thing to do these days and the Opposition are now in the mood for knocking CIE. It does not surprise me, though it was their own brainchild. I think they got it under way. Now that they are in Opposition and increases have to be made, they are doing the Pontius Pilate.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2nd March, 1977.

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