Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 1978

Vol. 304 No. 4

Vote 46: Defence (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £100,201,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1978, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.
—(Minister for Defence).

The question of the establishment of a Women's Service Corps is creating widespread interest throughout the country and within the services. It is not an innovation in military history but something that has been successfully implemented in other armies. I believe the response to the idea will be very satisfying because to date only young men of good character have been accepted for the Army. I believe the women would now like to make an active contribution to the Defence Forces and the opportunity will be given to them. I hope the interview boards set up to recruit the officer cadre will maintain the standards established by the interview boards for cadets to date. I do not hold the view that there has been any favour bestowed on sons of officers. I have no knowledge of any unsuitable candidate being selected for the officer corps. In fact suitability and fitness are the criteria on which judgment is based. I believe that in the formation of the new force a very high standard will be expected of the officer corps.

There is no reason why women should not contribute largely in every area within the Army. Some suggest that they should be confined to clerical and catering areas and some other areas, but I think that with initial training the women could compete in all Army weapons operations and can be trained to as high a standard as young men. There is no reason why with the rifle, the Gustav and lighter weapons, we should not have excellent female soldiers. Some Deputies have suggested that we should get information from other countries. Some suggested the example of the Israeli Women's Corps. I think we should establish our own standards. Conditions in Israel are much different. I hope we never have to endure the heat they have to endure in Israel nor would I like to find that the problems of that terrain had to be overcome here. I did see the forces in Israel, although I did not visit any barracks. The high standard of both men and women in the forces was very noticeable when they retired from active service. The discipline and training they got and brought with them into civilian life gave them alertness, courtesy and smartness which were very obvious in every walk of civilian life where both these men and women work.

I should like to see our women's corps established within their own barracks and in time it could be seen where they could be best deployed. Initially, I think they would make much greater progress in training within their own area. We would look forward to seeing competition within the Army in gymnastics and other sports areas, basketball, swimming or in the many areas for which the Army is famous, where this corps could get an opportunity to show their talents.

The second line reserve, An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil is another vital area in the Defence Forces. For many years now Army brigades are composed of regular units combined with battalions of FCA for the one purpose of defence. Generally speaking, there is not adequate understanding or appreciation of the continuing service given by the FCA volunteers. They are always available. They have guarded our vital installations down the years. Their service has gone unnoticed. The Minister referred briefly to them and acknowledged their service but generally the public seem to ignore and not be aware of this continuing contribution. Have Ministers, the present Minister and past Ministers, and Deputies really got down to studying how we can improve conditions for people who give voluntary service?

For the past 30 or 40 years, since the old LDF days, a very unattractive uniform has been worn by serving members. Thought has never been given to a replacement of that uniform. In inclement weather when members are on active service, doing strategic or tactical exercises or just on the firing ranges, they get wet. Nobody ever thought of providing these men with protective clothing, except a great-coat, and at one time ground sheets were issued. It is vital that thought be given to the provision of additional clothing. If we had a smartening up of the uniform it would be an attraction and an encouragement for new members.

Some people might be frustrated or dissatisfied with the FCA. But active members, people who are in touch and who go on regular parades, know exactly what is going on. If members do not attend they cannot be expected to know what their duties are. Of course, there is a remedy for that— one can be made non-effective if one does not attend regularly.

Some consideration should be given to the provision of ranges. I know of battalions which have to travel 100 miles each way to a firing range. Does this not seen unreasonable at this time of expensive travel costs? A range could be erected in a suitable area which would make such journeys unnecessary. Thought should be given to the establishment of suitable ranges at reasonable distances from FCA battalions.

I remember 25 or 30 years ago when it was normal practice for Ministers to hold conferences in the Curragh at which battalion commanders would be present. It was normal for them to express their views on how best they considered the FCA force in their area could be improved. I do not know if the Minister attended some of those conferences. I know I did. We raised many points which down the years have never been attended to adequately. It is a waste of time attending conferences if some action is not taken.

I want to refer specifically to the necessity of establishing a range in County Clare. This matter has been raised for the last 25 years. Such a range would obviate the journey to Kilworth Camp in County Cork which is more than 120 miles from that area. Voluntary labour by members of the FCA could be given for the erection of the necessary buildings.

Generally speaking, there is no lessening of enthusiasm or desire to serve the country by our young men. We hear of many problems with our youth, of the difficulties of overcoming the boredom they suffer from and of the question of controlling violence among our young people, who have nothing better to do than go around in gangs. Parents should consider the FCA. Their sons would get very good training in discipline and physical culture, and there is even provision for advancing educationally.

When the Women's Service Corps is established, I see no reason why some thought should not be given to establishing a women's corps in the FCA. This would give the young women in their own locality an opportunity to get good physical training. They could have their own NCO and officer corps with whom they could train. I can visualise a time when our FCA headquarters at battalion and company level would have both NCO and officer ranks to give the training I referred to. This is only a thought, but it is something on which some firm decisions should be made.

I am surprised there is no allocation for expenditure on improvements on the 12th Battalion Headquarters, Sarsfield Barracks, Limerick, Deputies have described some of the Army billets as the worst in Europe. I have not seen the barracks in Europe. It is true however that many of the buildings are old—they were there in the British time—particularly in the Curragh, but there have been vast improvements in the catering services, installations and field kitchens. We have had a wonderful standard of training given by the catering service in the Army. Diningrooms are excellent and the standard of service there is equal to any given in an hotel. However, some of the billets are very old and need replacement and the pace seems to be rather slow. One wonders who is responsible when it comes to allocating money for Defence. Is it the civil servants in the Department of Finance? It seems unreasonable that the Army should be the last people to get the comforts, yet they are the first group we have to rely on when we are in danger. I would like to see a change of heart on this.

Even if we have to borrow money or to raise it from taxes, we must provide normal comforts for our PDF whom I regard as first citizens of the State. I think it is unreasonable that married soldiers should have to compete with others for houses. Some married men are transferred frequently and I think there should be some priority given to them in the local authority housing lists. It has been suggested that some agency should be established within the Army to make provision for Army personnel living adjacent to barracks and for staff attached to FCA units. I should like to know if any progress is being made in this respect.

I am glad to note that Civil Defence is being looked after properly. It is an important service to which men and women devote their spare time voluntarily. The local authorities pay a contribution towards the outlay. I should also like to pay a tribute to the Red Cross, the Knights of Malta and the St. John Ambulance Brigade for the excellent work they do and the high standards they maintain.

I wish to deal briefly with the Army Equitation School and with all those associated with it, including those who purchase the horses. In this connection I submit that there will be unanimity that we should be prepared to pay the right price for the right type of horse. This is an area in which Army officers have given outstanding service to the State and have helped to give the Irish horse the highest place in the world.

I will refer to the introduction of a contributory pension scheme for widows and orphans of non-commissioned officers and privates in our PDF. The contributions will be by way of deduction from pay while the members are serving. There is also a provision to have deductions made from gratuities. In some cases these deductions could amount to £900 or £1,000. I do not regard such deductions as being fair because many NCOs and men look forward to these gratuities, to which they do not contribute, when they retire. If a serving NCO predeceases his wife while he is serving she or the family will not be eligible for ex-gratia payments. I do not know if this scheme has been implemented. If not, I urge on the Minister to have it improved.

Membership of the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen is open to all the forces and I should like the Minister, by way of recognition of the service ONE men have given to the State, to establish a closer liaison with that organisation. They hold functions annually and I suggest that the Army, possibly through the attendance of Army bands and so forth, would try to make these annual events more enjoyable. The relationship between the Army and ONE is quite good at the moment and we would like to maintain and improve it as far as possible. Their members are very proud of their service and they deserve some recognition.

We can anticipate a vast improvement in fisheries protection by the

Naval Service when they have the necessary boats commissioned, and we hope we will be able to patrol successfully and protect our fisheries in the limits within which we will have full jurisdiction. Our fisheries will develop and our youth will see a future; if those who have been encroaching on our territory over the years are restricted and if our conservation methods succeed there will be a good living for our young fishermen.

We have land, sea and air services, and in all our people are familiar with the work of our Air Corps. Again this is vital, and I am satisfied that everything possible is done to have the right type of plane and equipment made available to our pilots, whether they are pilots of helicopters or of planes. Their mercy missions from time to time bring home to people what a really valuable service they are providing and we should all express our gratitude to those brave men who in very difficult conditions undergo and overcome many hazards.

In the field of sport the Army have always excelled and we have some fine cadets in our Army who distinguished themselves in the sporting arena. The women's corps when fully trained will make a contribution; there is no reason why they should not be given the opportunity to develop their talents in our Army bands in the future.

Gymnastics is an area in which our Army personnel have developed a very high standard of physique. Our gymnastic teams some years ago were outstanding and as we approach more normal times we look forward to seeing this applying equally in every battalion. It is important that the instructors maintain the standards; it would be a pity to see them going rusty. We have developed a very high standard of adventure training and at the moment every command in the State have an adventure training club who engage in a variety of activities. This is a major factor in developing the physique of our young soldiers, who are as capable, fit and well-trained as any soldiers in any army in the world. From time to time our soldiers have gone on courses abroad and have shown a real gift for distinguishing themselves in this area.

Services which are very rarely appreciated are the Medical Corps and the Nursing Corps of the Army. They are responsible in a big way for the health and physique of our soldiers, and whether a person is hospitalised or not within the Army, one must appreciate the real care that our Medical Corps and our Army nurses give. I see a useful contribution being made by the women's corps, when established, within that Medical Corps in first aid and in many similar ways.

I should not conclude without referring to the wonderful contribution by our FCA in cross-country and other areas. In international events we have had many distinguished young men over the years who were given that opportunity because they decided to serve in the FCA and in the regular Army. They certainly held the flag high when they went abroad and represented our country.

I will conclude by saying that the Minister has the co-operation of all Members of the House, and indeed of the public, in doing a job which is vital, which must continue and which must maintain the high standards established over the years. Those who lead within the Army have established a very high standard of morale amongst themselves and have given to those they lead the same high ideals. This in a small State is important. I would like to see the public giving much greater recognition to all members of the forces at every level and rank. Our media can project their image favourably. I hope that in the years ahead we will have peace, when those who do not recognise established Governments and who make it difficult for the security forces to maintain standards of peace come round to the belief that there is only one way to peace, and that is to recognise ordered Government, to observe the rules of that Government and to recognise that an established Army and Garda force under the direction of the Government are the only source through which the public can be given a normal way of life. Nobody other than the established Army and Garda force has the right to unsurp the authority given to the elected Government by the people of the State.

Somewhat belatedly I want to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. The Estimates for the Department of Defence and Army Pensions give me an opportunity to do so. I want to pay tribute to the Minister on being the first Minister in the history of the State to introduce an Estimate for the Deparment of Defence running into nine figures. I join with the Minister in congratulating members of the Permanent Defence Forces and those aligned with the Army, on their high standard of discipline and their high code. It is essential that discipline be maintained at a high standard. This high standard is noted and recognised universally. The 15,063 members of the Permanent Defences Force have onerous and most responsible duties, some of which the Minister listed. They carry out these duties very well, and most unobtrusively in many cases. We can use the opportunity provided by the debate on this Estimate to say to our forces: "Well done." These are difficult and trying times for many of them, but they carry them out very cheerfully, and I congratulate them on that.

It is also essential that our forces should have the best equipment available within the resources of the State. It is most gratifying to see that five Army personnel carriers will be made available. It is wonderful that they are produced at home. They will provide employment and help to maintain morale within the force. The Minister referred to a down payment on four tanks. It is vital that our forces should have all the equipment necessary, and that they do not feel neglected in any way. I hope the resources of the State will continue to be made available to the Army.

I should like to refer to the educational opportunities available to members of the force. Concessions are available for members to take courses of tuition and study. This, combined with general physical culture, will lead to fitter, more able and more alert men. I hope the Minister will be able to give us a little more information on some of the other schemes he is examining with a view to providing additional educational opportunities for non-commissioned officers and privates.

I am very pleased to see that under subhead G there is a 25 per cent increase in the amount of money made available for Civil Defence. In my constituency we have every reason to be grateful to Civil Defence and voluntary groups in the area, especially in inclement weather. They work most diligently and I am pleased to see recognition given to them in an increase in this year's Vote to £504,000 from £401,000 last year. Every Member of the House must be very pleased about this. Local authorities are very much involved and they can do a great deal to develop proper attitudes towards Civil Defence.

I should like to pay tribute to the FCA, a voluntary group who offer a wonderful back-up to the Army, and also to the Red Cross, the Order of Malta and the St. John Ambulance Brigade on their contribution to making a better society. A great thing in the Estimate for a person who has the pleasure of representing a constituency like Wicklow is Asgard II. I am proud that this boat has been designed by an Arklow firm and will be built by them. I know the decision to go ahead with it was taken by the previous Administration, and I am delighted the Minister has been able to come up with the necessary finances in this his first Estimate. I know the State will be proud of Asgard II. When she takes part in races and events, she will do well due to the high standard of workmanship in Arklow. It is wonderful that work opportunities will be maintained there, and that the name of John Tyrrell & Sons will continue to be recognised. This is a proud moment for everybody from Wicklow. As I said, the design is local and she will be built locally.

Fáiltím go bhfuil Gaeilge á labhairt i gcathlán san Arm. Molaim an tAire go bhfuil sé ar intinn aige úsáid na Gaeilge a spreagadh ar fud an Airm go léir. Is bréa linn a fheicéail go bhfuil an intinn agus an meon seo ag an Aire agus go bhfuil daoine ann go bhfuil grá acu don teanga. Tá súil agam go néireoidh go geal leis an Chéad Chathlán agus go spreagfar úsáid na Gaeilge ar fud an Airm go hiomlán.

It is essential that the morale of the Army be kept at a very high level. There is much in this Estimate to show it will, the five personnel carriers, the down payment on the tanks, and Asgard II, plus other aspects the Minister mentioned such as the programme to improve aerodrome facilities. These are all very necessary to assure members of the Permanent Defence Forces that they have the gratitude of the State.

This is the first opportunity I have had of speaking on the Estimate for the Department of Defence. I congratulate the Minister belatedly on his appointment and I wish him well in his onerous task in the coming years. The Minister paid tribute to the Defence Forces. It is true to say that the community in general join with him in that tribute. The Defence Forces include all the different organisations but we are concerned mostly with the Army.

In the past few years the Army's task has become more and more onerous. I am glad the Minister, like his predecessor, is endeavouring to improve all aspects of Army life. My experience of Army life is very limited compared with some Members of the House. I was connected with the LDF for a short period before it became the FCA. It is no harm for somebody outside to have a look at the inside of such an establishment as the armed forces.

The Minister said allowances are paid to all personnel for Border duty and special security duties outside the Border area. Morale is high in the Army but there is bound to be a certain amount of cribbing and griping. One of the things they gripe about is the special allowance. It is rather small. It should be looked at on its own merits. It must be realised that the special Border duty areas demand the presence of the Army with the Garda on occasion. One of the cribs of Army personnel is that there is a great difference between what they get for the job and what gardaí are paid. This calls for readjustment.

I welcome the idea of providing for a new Curragh Command but there are fears that the establishment of this command will mean the transferring of personnel from other commands. I am concerned about the transfer of personnel from Sarsfield Barracks in Limerick. I do not think it is the intention of the Minister to carry out those transfers but I raise the matter because people have expressed concern to me. The Minister mentioned the prospect of establishing a women's service corps and I should like to put a number of questions in regard to that corps. Will those who join this corps have the right of promotion to the highest level within the Defence Forces? I note that it is intended that members of this corps be billeted in the new barracks at the Curragh but I should like to know if it is the intention of the Minister to have such personnel based in other centres. Will it be open to married women to join this corps?

It is good to see so many cadets. officers and, indeed, serving soldiers improving their lot within the Army by attending universities and apprenticeship courses. The Minister should look at the question of promotion within the Army. I am aware that serving soldiers have been promoted but with so many well-educated young boys entering the Army they should be given an opportunity of reaching officer grade. It is necessary to show our serving soldiers that their capabilities are recognised. They must be given the same opportunity of going right to the top as cadets are given.

The Minister should have a look at Army regulations. I am aware that they are there for disciplinary purposes but one can get lost in the different regulations. Disciplinary measures, if administered strictly, can be very harsh. It depends on who is carrying out the discipline. For example, some of those in detention are allotted a certain number of cigarettes every day and two extra on Sunday. I do not believe that such disciplinary regulations should apply in this day and age. In my view those regulations should be revised preferably with the aid of a person from outside the Army.

I welcome the Minister's statement with regard to the provision of a new vessel for the Naval Service. His announcement concerning the development of the Naval Service is a major step forward. The service was neglected for many years. We all know that the corvettes which were in very poor condition spent more time in port undergoing repairs than at sea. It is only right that we should pay tribute to the people who served in those times under great handicaps. The Minister has told us that it necessary today to patrol a much enlarged maritime area resulting from the extension of the exclusive—or elusive—fishery limits. At this stage we do not know what we will have to patrol but it is good to know that our Naval Service will be capable of patrolling any area.

I welcome the provision of £40,000 for the purchase of sports equipment for the Army. For many years the Army played a big part in the sporting life of this country. Their football and hurling teams and boxers were always to the fore. I would like to see Army personnel participating more in sport. We are all aware of the part played by Army personnel in local activities and that many retired and serving personnel play a big part in organising sporting events. They have proved a very valuable asset to society. I also welcome the provision of £175,000 for the equitation school. It is only right that we should pay tribute to that school and the showjumpers who have competed at home and at international shows on Army horses. We should also pay tribute to the Minister's predecessor who had the foresight to allocate money for the purcase of good jumping horses.

The helicopter service is vital not alone for fishery protection but also for mercy missions. This is a fine service and we hope it will be built up to the stage where it can play its part with the Naval Service in fishery protection work.

Reading through the Minister's statement it is amazing to find the various activities in which the Army were involved in 1977 when they dealt, for example, with requests on about 300 occasions for bomb disposal services, most of which presumably were false alarms but which are an indication of the times we live in.

Down through the years many people have spoken of the lack of housing for Army personnel. So far as my knowledge of the situation in some of the barracks in the south is concerned, the married quarters are obsolete and should be replaced by new accommodation. As the Minister has pointed out, there is much need for liaison between the Army and local authorities on the many aspects of housing in order to help Army personnel with problems in this regard and to make them aware of the various facets of grants that go towards the cost of houses.

There has not been a recruiting drive now for three years and in view of the numbers leaving the Army after those three years it is time to make an effort to recruit replacements for these people. In the Cork area soldiers are leaving the Army in increasing numbers. It takes at least six months after recruitment before men can undertake the duties of regular soldiers so we should make the effort now to recruit more young men.

It is necessary, too, that we have a look at the situation regarding the FCA whose numbers are also decreasing. Perhaps not enough attention has been paid to this force. Therefore, I join with Deputy Taylor in requesting the Minister to give immediate consideration to the FCA with a view to increasing the membership. The FCA can provide a very valuable service as has been proved in the past couple of years when they have helped out in so many areas, possibly saving the State a lot of money.

A number of speakers have referred to the Civil Defence organisation. In this regard I agree, too, that they in co-operation with the Red Cross and other voluntary bodies are a valuable asset to the Defence Forces as a whole. We must support as far as possible such bodies as Civil Defence and the FCA. The Minister has a part to play in trying to bring about a greater morale within the FCA.

The Minister referred to the observers to the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in the Middle East and enumerated the different areas in which our troops have served abroad. In all these instances the Army have acquitted themselves well. They have a wonderful reputation abroad from the time previously when they served the UN. Perhaps that was the greatest morale booster ever for the Army. This is an aspect that we could consider again if the need arises so that we might play our part in this special way.

Subhead H concerns the special allowances payable to veterans. Again, I would ask the Minister to consider the question of the means test for these allowances. At the outset the allowances were much too small. Although the situation has improved there are many veterans who because of the means test do not qualify for these special allowances. In order to be eligible for them one would need to have merely a pittance of an income.

I welcome the extension of free travel to the spouses of veterans and I welcome also the various other measures in the Estimate.

When talking of the Defence Forces there are one or two points that must be considered. It has been stated recently that NATO is out so far as we are concerned. Our Defence Forces have gained a reputation from our stance of neutrality and have been respected on that count. I had been hoping to find in the Minister's statement some reference to the role of the Defence Forces in the future, but I have been disappointed on that count. I had expected to hear, for example, whether their role would be changed in so far as the EEC are concerned. There have been several suggestions— and seminars, too, that are not always in the open—about a common defence policy. We should ensure that any suggestion that may emerge in this field is discussed in this House. Alliances of whatever kind should not be entered into lightly. In the event of any movement in that direction the Minister or one of his colleagues should keep the House informed of the situation.

Finally, I wish to add my voice to the tributes that have been paid here to the Defence Forces and to wish them every success in the future.

I, too, congratulate the Minister on his appointment and on the manner in which he is handling the affairs of his Department. I was impressed by his statement introducing the Estimate and by the Estimate itself, which represents a vote of confidence in the future of the Army. In addition the Estimate is an encouragement not only to those already in the Army but to any young man thinking of joining the Defence Forces. The opportunities are there for anybody who wishes to continue his education even to degree level. Members are given an excellent training for life.

The amount of money being provided in the Estimate will go towards ensuring that the highest standards are maintained in the Defence Forces. In this context it is no harm to highlight the current rates of pay on the 1977 Wage Agreement. For a recruit the weekly wage is from £51.71 per week, while a sergeant-major's pay starts at £88.43 per week.

Those joining the Defence Forces have the opportunity to participate in sport. This is a very healthy activity and I am sure the Minister for Health and anyone interested in the welfare of our people would advocate such participation. The members of the Defence Forces give a very good example to our people and encourage them to participate in games and physical training. Ireland is highlighted before the world through their participation in events ranging from international orienteering and cross-country running to show jumping. This has a spin-off effect in the form of tourism and trade contacts.

The helicopter service is becoming very sophisticated and is used for rescue operations and for transporting people to hospital on mercy missions.

I should like to congratulate the FCA, An Slua Muirí and Civil Defence on their role as back-up services for the Army. I recommend that a recruiting drive should be undertaken in every parish. It is as important in the city as in the country to have such units. They give an example of neatness and discipline and I would encourage any young boy to become involved. He would be given training for the future and it would keep him from harm.

I compliment the Minister on the provision of new equipment that can be obtained in Ireland. I refer to the armoured carriers which are built in County Meath.

The Air Corps provide training opportunities for many people who later take up posts with Aer Lingus. There are many opportunities for those who wish to take up appointments in the Air Corps. Last year ten new aircraft were purchased and more money is being expended this year, particularly with a view to fishery protection. This is now an air and sea operation. Heretofore fishery protection was part of the function of the Naval Service but it now involves an air operation as well. It is heartening that we can build ships of a very high standard in our shipyards. I refer to the ships being built at Verholme. A new ship was launched recently and another is being built. This is a necessary vote of confidence in our industry.

I would draw the attention of the Minister to the engineering personnel situation regarding the servicing of our ships. About ten years ago we had approximately ten engineers of a first-class standard at a time when we had only one ship. Today we have only one extra engineer and they are now servicing seven ships. The Minister should look closely at the structure of naval personnel with particular reference to the engineering service and he should ensure that the highest standard is maintained. Ships are now highly sophisticated and depend for their efficient operation on a sufficient number of highly trained personnel. Engineers in the Naval Service should receive the same rate of pay as their counterparts in the Army. The Defence Forces are under one command but I understand that there is a differential.

I would ask the Minister to give the green light to a campaign to recruit cadets into the engineering section of the Naval Service. There are 83 Army cadets attending University College, Galway, and cadets should be encouraged to join the Naval Service. Perhaps they could attend University College, Cork, which is adjacent to the naval base. Haulbowline is the heart of activity and that is where the ships are based. I would ask the Minister to examine the possibility of having the executive situated there also.

Regarding the engineering and navigational sections of the Naval Service, it is now international practice that they should be represented on an equal basis on board ship. Our Naval Service have ten engineering officers and there is none in training. There are seven marine engineers, three electrical engineers and 40 executive officers, while 20 cadets are in training. Executive cadets have been trained with the Royal Navy on a regular basis for the past 25 years. This involves three years' attachment to the Royal Navy.

Despite having expanded from one operational ship, there has been an increase of only one in the engineering branch. As a result of almost total failure to attract direct entry marine engineers, the Department have lowered the qualifications and will accept second-class certificates of competency in lieu of first-class certificates. The second-class certificate is the half-way stage. This results in the pay and conditions of those already appointed with first-class certificates being held at the minimum level, and one engineer with a first-class certificate resigned recently. There has been no improvement as a result of the efforts to attract second-class engineers despite numerous advertising campaigns. In the area around the naval base personnel are being offered much more attractive posts in industry. Many chemical industries are looking for personnel with that type of training. We will have to look closely at this matter if we want to buld up our Naval Service, in which we should take great pride.

It is important to keep our ships fully manned. Up to 70 per cent of the cost of a modern ship is involved in the engineering function of it. We are dealing in ships costing £4,500,000 and £5 million. The danger is that our ships will have to go to sea understaffed or with staff who have not the highest qualifications. If the number of engineers goes down the danger is that engineering technicians will be eroded in a similar fashion. Extra responsibilities are placed on engineers because of the shortage of staff and they are not given any increase in pay or an improvement in conditions. The Minister in his speech said that the minesweepers will be replaced in the near future. They have been at sea without being fully manned with engineering personnel.

It will take four years, regardless of what qualifications future cadets have, before they are of any use to the service. We slipped up in the previous four years by not having cadets in training. If there are not positive improvements in the future the few remaining engineers will have left the service and there will be nobody left to train the cadets. The Naval Service have to attract at least six new marine engineers. Marine engineers with first-class certificates are registered as chartered engineers internationally and fully recognised throughout the industry and State bodies with the exception of the Naval Service where their specialisation is best utilised. The director and assistant director of the Naval Service are executive officers based in Dublin with a staff of five other officers but there is no engineer. The Minister should recognise the existing marine qualifications in the service and improve the image in order to attract more engineers. Future cadets should obtain special qualifications to enable them to keep up with the demands of the Naval Service.

I compliment the Minister on the provision of two new squash courts at Haulbowline. I also compliment him on going ahead with providing new houses for Army personnel. Some of the Army personnel are not living in very good conditions. They should get as high a standard of house as anybody else. Some of the houses in the Crosshaven area need to be renewed. Somebody mentioned that it is difficult for Army personnel sometimes to qualify for local authority houses when they are moved around the country from time to time.

There are not many overholders in that particular area but I ask the Minister to look at them sympathetically. We have recommended that the local authority provide them with houses but they say it is a matter for the Army. The Army say it is a matter for the local authority. Those people have served the State very well but now, when they are pensioned after rearing their families well, they are caught between two stools. If they cannot build their own houses and do not qualify for local authority houses their pensions are being withheld. I ask the Minister to give them favourable consideration. I look forward to innovations and further progress made under this Minister.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this Defence Estimate. I will deal specifically in my remarks with the Naval Service. It is a point of conjecture whether or not that service should be known as the Naval Service or the Fishery Protection Service because it is in the latter role that they fulfil their greatest obligation. I would like to have had a breakdown of the number involved in the Permanent Defence Force. We were given a blanket figure of 15,000. I believe there are approximately 650 in the Naval Service.

It is obvious with the increased role the Naval Service will have to play in fishery protection in the future that this figure will have to be vastly increased. What proposals has the Minister in relation to increasing the complement of the Naval Service? I suggest that the number of naval stations around the coast should be expanded. That would be a stimulus to recruitment. At the moment the Naval Service are based in Haulbowline. If there were two stations on the west coast, another on the south coast, and at least one on the east coast it would give local incentive to young people to join up. We are told that, with the injection of money from the EEC for additional protection against poaching at sea, the number of ships which will be allocated to the Naval Service will be greatly increased. I believe five or six extra ships were mentioned.

It will mean, if we assume that the number of personnel on each boat is approximately 70-80, that our Naval Service complement will not be sufficient to man those boats, never mind the number required on shore in order to have a back-up service. There will obviously have to be a considerable increase in recruitment in the future.

We should have been given more information in regard to An Slua Muirí with regard to the part-time section of the Naval Service. There is no figure mentioned in the Minister's speech regarding the number of people at present serving in An Slua Muirí or the number of centres around the coast. What centres have we at present? Has the Minister any plans to extend those centres? What type of equipment is at the disposal of An Slua Muirí? If we expand at the rate that is necessary this is an obvious starting point.

It has been stated rather cynically by the fishing industry and by the fishermen in particular that the £30 million which has been mentioned in regard to the expansion of our Naval Service would be compared with the 30 pieces of silver. There is some substance to that because we have seen our fisheries crificed in recent weeks at the whim the continentals. This £30 million poor consolation for the amount of territorial waters we have lost to the continentals.

What arrangements have been made subsidise the running costs of the vessels it is proposed to obtain or build? We are told there will probably be eight vessels in the Naval Service as result of this injection from the EEC. Obviously, the running costs will be substantial if we have a vastly increased number in the Naval Service. Could the Minister give us an estimate what it will cost and say if any promise has been obtained from the EEC regarding these costs?

It must make the job of the Naval Service very thankless in these days when no matter what size of boat they find poaching within our waters the maximum fine is £100. As long ago as 1 December the Minister for Fisheries promised to bring in new legislation to increase the existing fine of £100. He said he intended to introduce this legislation in January 1978. We are still awaiting it and meanwhile the foreigners are making hay while the sun shines. It is entirely out of proportion that the maximum fine should be £100 when the damage——

This would be more appropriate to a Fisheries debate.

The Naval Service have the task of apprehending——

I accept that.

——and it must be admitted that their task is almost hopeless if they go to considerable trouble to apprehend foreign boats when the maximum penalty is £100 while the price of herring on the Dutch retail market is £4,500 per ton. That means that if one of the Dutch trawlers catches 100 tons of herring the value is almost £.5 million. That catch can be made within our territorial waters and the fine is totally out of proportion to the crime committed. I am told it would involve very little trouble to bring in amending legislation and the sooner this is done the better.

We cannot advocate legislation on an Estimate.

There is no allowance made in this Estimate for building further boats other than the one at present under construction and which will be ready for service, we are told, in mid-1979. Can the Minister give any further details of the proposals or suggestions from Brussels that we are to get this £30 million for extra ships and planes? There is no suggestion in the Estimate about the provision of even one extra plane. I understand the one plane we have at present is on charter. No provision is made for the purchase of even one aeroplane but we are told we are getting five or six purely for fishery protection. Is this promise definite or it is contingent on our agreement the common fishery policy? It is all very much up in the air.

There is no provision on existing fishery protection vessels for a helicopter pad and none on the ship that is at present being built. Surely this is very shortsighted. A helicopter can cover an enormous amount of land or sea and it would greatly lessen the amount of travel involved for ships of the Naval Service.

I should like to advocate that the Naval Service become more enterprising and as well as improving conditions for personnel, make their life more attractive. I suggest that they go abroad more often. I think that practice did obtain in the past when we had merely a few corvettes but in recent times our boats seem to stay at home. It is a great boost for naval personnel if they have a trip to the West Indies or the Mediterranean and I suggest that training trips or courtesy trips of this kind should be encouraged on a large scale. Other naval services come here quite often. We should reciprocate and in doing so make the life of our personnel more enjoyable and entertaining within the service.

The Minister for Fisheries, in the debate on his Estimate, said he would use naval vessels and personnel to stop the wholesale poaching of salmon at sea which is going on at present. The salmon industry is one of our main sources of fishery revenue, running into many millions of pounds each year. Its existence is now in danger as a result of abuses. The main abuse is illegal drift netting at sea which is primarily occuring on the west coast. I have not yet seen any instance of the Naval Service being brought into action in this regard but that will have to be done because the existing system whereby boards of conservators are in control of salmon fishing is not adequate to stop this type of poaching. These people operate in trawlers off the west coast and, so far as I know, no concrete attempt has been made to apprehend them. The Minister for Fisheries said he intended to get the Naval Service to stop this practice. I should like the Minister for Defence to say how soon he intends to take action because the salmon season has already opened and if we do not curb this type of illegal fishing there will be no salmon industry in a few years.

The Deputy is concentrating on the fishing industry.

The Deputy has finished.

I should like to join with other Members on both sides of the House in congratulating the Minister for Defence and the Defence Forces. This is a non-controversial Estimate. Possibly I should be happier to be involved in a more controversial theme. I believe that our forces are carrying out their duties despite the limited funds available. They are discharging all their functions under the Constitution in the best interests of the State. It is interesting to note that it is costing £100 million. I wonder if it would be costing that amount if a certain chain of events had not occured here seven or eight years ago. We have a saying that it is an ill wind which does not blow somebody some good. This ill wind has blown some good for our Defence Forces. Now we can talk about a realistic Estimate for the Department of Defence. Approximately £7,000 per man is the total commitment to our Defence Forces. When you contrast that with the average cost of creating a job in industrial employment, it works out reasonably well considering the type of sophisticated equipment, arrangements, housing and so on.

What makes a happy soldier? It could be summed up in a few short words: he has to be well paid, well dressed, well fed and well equipped. How do our soldiers fare under those headings? There is another aspect which is usually glossed over on occasion and that is the question of public acceptance of soldiers and recognition of their efforts. Enough attention is not paid to those areas.

It would appear that the members of the Defence Forces are reasonably well paid. Apart from a few anomalies between their remuneration and that of the gardaí on special duties and overtime, it would be fair to say that they get reasonable remuneration for the work done. The soldiers would be the first to let us know if they were not well dressed and well fed. One does not hear too many complaints about that.

I was a guest of the Defence Forces at manoeuvres in the west during the summer. I was surprised to find how well equipped they are as far as field canteens and field equipment of all kinds are concerned. Those of us who are happily situated in snug surroundings are all too apt to forget what it is like to be living under canvas. For a few years some of us had the opportunity of being actively involved in the Defence Forces. Despite the fact that it was a young man's fancy, I can remember that conditions were very draughty and drab in those days. I understand there have been tremendous improvements over the years.

To be well equipped is more important than anything else for a happy soldier. He feels a real soldier only when he has equipment which is as good and as effective as any other army in Europe can offer. It used to be said that when you had the right to carry your rifle you were a full-time operative in the Defence Forces. It is pleasing to note that over the last few years the type of equipment— rifles, side arms or heavy equipment— has improved out of all recognition to what it was in those days. Money spent in that area is money well spent.

Public acceptance is another area, perhaps a grey area so far as the Army are concerned. Of course, there has been a vast improvement there. It should be the determined wish of all the public relations experts in the Department to make sure that public acceptance is kept at a very high level. It would be fair to say that there was a tradition of antagonism to the wearers of uniforms. That had an historical background. We would all like to think that that has diminished and that we can look forward to the day when it will be totally absent so far as the recognition of the efforts of our uniformed personnel in the Defence Forces is concerned.

The success of the Defence Forces can be gauged by the spontaneous recruitment of personnel. Not enough young men make themselves available for our Defence Forces. We do not have enough men to man the Naval Service. I presume that is one of the reasons the Minister will be involved in a recruitment campaign before long. In a republic like this, with a great tradition of nationhood, recruitment should be on a voluntary basis. There should be no need for a television campaign which often depicts the Army in a way which is not true. The Army or the Department should not be involved in exercises in the public media which are not a fair and honest assessment of the situation in the Army, or entice young people to join for other reasons with which I will deal later.

In my opinion we do get enough men in the Naval Service because we are preoccupied with exercises which, in essence, are not really related to naval operations. We all know they have a fisheries protection function to carry out but how wonderful it would be if they had more exercises appropriate to a naval service. Exercises could be held in the Irish Sea or the near Atlantic. I hope there is no suggestion that our boats are not capable or well enough equipped to take part in that kind of exercise. That may have been the case in the days of the old corvettes, because of performance difficulties. Modern boats are however capable of taking part in such exercises. I am sure it would not interfere with our neutrality if we allowed one of our boats to take part in a NATO exercise or an exercise with another foreign power.

I should not like to have to "shoot down" the Deputy.

I was leaving that aspect of the affair. You can be very hard on occasion. We must make the Army more attractive. We must involve them more in pageantry, in displays. They should be seen by the taxpayers who provide the money to keep them there.

They could be used for local festive occasions. Then there would not be much trouble with recruitment. The majority of our people would like to see the Army on display at least once a year, not only in Dublin but in towns throughout the country. We should have them giving a display of strength and firepower, a display of the armour that we are paying our money for. For instance, it has been pleasing to see a large Army contingent in the streets of Castlebar year by year taking part in the four-day walk. It was a wonderful thing to see our Army involving themselves in a community festive occasion, showing that they are capable of austerity and that they have the stamina to participate in walks throughout the country.

I do not accept that the Army are on a semi-war footing, and in peace time we can enhance the image and improve the morale of our troops if we involve them more in community work. There are in the Army qualified engineers, sappers and other technicians and they should be seen performing their duties throughout the country. I doubt if it is beyond their capacity to act on a consultative basis outside the Army. We could avail of their expertise if we involve them in providing the manpower, technical and otherwise, to build roads and bridges. They were involved in that work before. How otherwise can they be given the opportunity to display their skills?

The FCA have a big role to play as far as defence is concerned. Up to 20 years ago young people were more anxious to participate in FCA training. At that time one could see them in every village throughout the west of Ireland. Although that is not evident now, I am convinced that many of our young people would be ready to serve in the FCA if it were explained to them that they were serving their country. One hears about what goes on in other countries and I suggest that the Swiss have a lot to offer us in this respect. They have a form of conscription. I appreciate that that word has overtones of past imperialism but there could be some sort of voluntary conscription to the FCA. I do not think it is too much to ask any young man of 18 years to give a few months of his time to the service of his country. If it could be encouraged on a large scale it would be a wonderful morale-booster from the point of view of the defence forces. Indeed I suggest it would be a good thing if everyone in the country did some military service on a voluntary basis. I am suggesting to the Minister that a scheme should be formulated to get more men into the FCA.

FCA men took it hard when it was decided they could no longer have their rifles at home. When you take the firearm, the firepower, out of the hands of a soldier you doom him to ineffectiveness. The gun does not have to be loaded. Anyway, an FCA man would not use it indiscriminately. It is a tradition that a soldier would prefer to lose his life before he would give up his firepower. The FCA had no choice in the matter. At the moment when they go on exercises the guns have to be brought from a central depot under full military escort and taken away again in the evening. In years gone by we saw members of the FCA going home with their rifles on their shoulders. There was no looseness as far as looking after and cleaning the rifle was concerned. It was your personal possession. In other small nation armies the day that a man gets his rifle is regarded very highly and if for any misdemeanour or abuse he is asked to surrender it this is regarded as a great disgrace. That is the case in this country as well. If it can be found possible to restore to the FCA that little extra dignity of allowing them their firearms, having due regard to security, it would be a great step forward.

We will all welcome the reorganisation of the Defence Forces and the introduction of the women's corps. It can be said fairly that there was a certain lack in not having a women's service corps. I hope that the ladies do not think it is because we were all male chauvinistic something or other that we did not allow them in up to this. It is a welcome step and the Minister is much to be congratulated on taking it in the Irish interest.

We have a cadet corps and I understand that 48 members were recruited into it in 1977. I do not want to sound parochial on this point, but I would like to know where they came from. That is probably classified information, but it is important as far as morale is concerned that people in the Army are of good standing and that there be a nice, even spread in the recruitment of cadets. Sadly not many of em come from the west of Ireland. I do not know the reason. Maybe enough of them are not offering themselves, but I think a number from that area would like to join. We must never allow a situation to develop where traditionally certain areas supply the cadet corps. Without wishing to discriminate against any section or area, it should be the policy of the Army that a certain number of the cadets recruited would come from each province. In that situation the Army would have a cadet corps and an officer corps recruited evenly throughout the country. This would be healthy for a small nation like this and it would serve as a great incentive to recruitment in certain areas when people would see their officers returning home for holidays and other occasions.

I am pleased to note that education and training facilities are available right through the ranks in third level education in all the different disciplines. The Minister should instil into cadets going into third level that there should be an even spread in all the disciplines, in engineering, in medicine and so on, so that the Army would be as self-sufficient as possible. It does not matter how large the total number of the Army is as long as they are effective to do their job, but they should be self-sufficient as far as all the disciplines and trades are concerned.

The facilities available to non-commissioned officers and privates for training, off-the-job training and day-release courses, and the help given in the provision of books, fees and so on, would make one believe that the Army is not just another job but a really worthwhile career for any man. Foreign courses are available, as they should be, for commissioned and non-commissioned officers. Nothing improves a man's outlook on his job so much as seeing how the other half lives, especially when he discovers that in service equipment, standards, dress and pay here we fare well compared with other defence forces. The Minister is right in proceeding with the policy of making these courses available to our officers.

He is right also in improving the grant-aid towards sporting facilities for our Defence Forces. We have only to view any athletic meeting abroad to realise that quite a number of the participants come from the defence forces of other nations. That should be the pattern with our Defence Forces too. The cream of our sportsmen—and I presume from now on of our sports-women—are attracted into the army, and every effort should be made to ensure that, once there, they are given every facility and opportunity to go to the very zenith of their powers as athletes, be they male or female. I am delighted that more facilities are being made available in that regard.

I turn now to the helicopter service. We in the west of Ireland, feel somewhat isolated from the east and we require the helicopter service on quite a number of occasions during the year for rescue and medical purposes Perhaps the refuelling station at Castlebar could be turned into an overnight stopping place for our helicopters. As a step further, perhaps we could provide facilities there for training mechanics and carrying out all necessary repairs to helicopters. Inevitably the helicopter will become part of the life of this country, with offshore installations, offshore drilling operations and new boats with helicopter platforms in increased activity in protection of our fishing stocks. We are going to need helicopters in the west of Ireland. Despite what anybody might think about any other location, Castlebar is ideally situated geographically and physically as the location for the advancement of this service. I ask the Minister to bear it in mind if he is contemplating setting up any such stations around the coasts.

Galway is a better situation.

Galway is a fine town and has sent us a very fine Minister for Defence. I am sure that the Minister is not so parochially-minded that he would not let some of the largesse go a little north.

A little north but not as far as Donegal.

We are going to look after the Donegal people too. I will have something to say about that later. The location is perfect in Castlebar and we have a military barracks there, which is the old cavalry barracks, in first-class condition. It is in an elvated situation and it is being used every week by the helicopter service. It would be a considerable boost for the town if the remaining services could be made available there for helicopters.

County Mayo has, if not the longest certainly the largest exposed coastline in the country, and no life boat service, despite that extensive coast. There is no lifeboat service at Clew Bay, Blacksod or Broadhill. There is nothing between Arranmore and Kilronan. No matter how you look at it, it can be substantiated that there are about three and a half hours steaming time in either direction from those two stations to get to the County Mayo coast.

It will have to be agreed by everybody that there is a developing fleet in the fishing industry in Donegal, in Achill, and in County Mayo in general. I did not offer when other well-known politicians, men of stature, were offering on the fisheries question. I was just as much entitled as anybody else to do so, as I represent the people living on one of the longest coastlines where the premier fishing stocks are located.

The Deputy was entitled to speak on the fisheries debate, but he cannot deal with fisheries on this Estimate.

When the Ceann Comhairle was here a speaker from the other side got fair play on fisheries. However, I accept your ruling.

The Deputy may speak about fishery patrols and fishery protection, but not about the fishery industry as such.

I will confine my remarks to fishery protection.

That is quite in order.

If we have prime fishery stocks in the Irish Sea we should have prime protection for them. At present we have not. That is straight and honest, and I do not care who it embarrasses. Some of our fishery protection vessels steam up along the west coast on occasion. They pass by the coastline of Mayo on occasion, but not often enough. The fishing grounds off the Mayo coast are the most pirated grounds in Europe. I will prove that by giving statistics. Recently in a storm 24 large fishing vessels belonging to foreign countries sheltered in Blacksod Bay. They did not happen to converge on Blacksod Bay and Clew Bay. We know those trawlers were not out taking the sunshine or on a fishing trip for the good of their health but for the good of their pockets. If 24 trawlers of that type found it necessary to shelter in Blacksod Bay in a storm, it is absolutely essential that more fisheries protection should be provided for the Mayo coast.

It was probably a case of any port in a storm.

The Deputy who made that remark probably does not know the bay I mentioned.

He does not know Deputy Flynn.

He probably never visited that part of the country. Should he ever find the time to come to the west, I will be glad to get some of our fishermen to show him around some of the finest harbours and bays and fishing grounds in the country.

Unfortunately I married into it.

The Deputy should get back to fishery protection and patrols.

I am sorry the Deputy said that unfortunately he married into it.

I meant fortunately.

My hearing can be a little defective at times.

The Deputy's marriage does not enter into this debate.

From what I have heard about fisheries and fishery protection since I came into this House, it appears we are married to them for a long time. Recently in a non-storm situation I visited the Belmullet Peninsula, or as some of my friends would say "down in the other republic". Virtually any night during the season if you look across Blacksod Bay, Broadhaven, or anywhere off Ballyglass, you see a string of lights like the lights of London. The people who talk about fishery protection need not tell me they are outside a limit of ten, 12 or 14 miles. They are not. They are clearly visible to the naked eye from the shore and they can be counted. If our prime fishing grounds off the Mayo coast do not deserve the prime protection I am talking about, I cannot imagine what fishery protection is all about.

I am making a case for a lifeboat service and I am asking the Minister to make the strongest possible representations to whatever authorities are responsible for the provision of a life-boat service for the people of County Mayo.

As far as I am aware, the Minister has no responsibility for lifeboats under this Estimate. The Deputy is looking for helicopters not lifeboats.

I asked the Minister to make the strongest possible representations to the lifeboat authorities to provide such a service for the fishing industry in County Mayo. Unless an improved fishery protection service is made available off the Mayo coast, foreign trawlers will fish out the sea. When they congregate in Belmullet it is obvious that the catch is fairly substantial. It is also substantial for our own fishermen.

I should like to refer to the remarks made about Donegal fishermen. They have a fondness for that area too and they need to be protected. They will be pleased to know that a lifeboat and better fishery protection vessels are available just as they are pleased to know that the Ballyglass pier will be an effective pier for shelter and for fishing drop-offs in the near future. We look forward to the new Minister for the Gaeltacht making further funds available for the improvement of piers.

The Minister for Defence has no responsibility for piers or lifeboats.

I want to put it on the record.

Not in this debate.

The Minister for the Gaeltacht has made substantial funds available for the improvement of our landing facilities in that area, which will help Irish fishermen as distinct from foreign fishermen. Our half-deckers are increasing their lobster and salmon fishing off the Mayo coast and they have no protection at all.

The Deputy is dealing more with fishing than with protection.

I am using the word "protection" to back up my statement. One of the premier functions of the Department of Defence is to provide protection for Irish fishermen. I am sure the Minister knows a campaign is being mounted by Mayo people to have a better service made available to them by the Department of Defence. I am voicing the feelings and the legitimate aims and desires of those fishermen and the people in general on the west coast. There is no protection for our half-deckers. A lifeboat service would provide that. A better service by our fishery protection vessels would keep others from taking an undue share of the catch.

Another Department is involved. I want to refer to tourism. This is not an aside and it is not a tangent. Pleasure craft are on the increase in the western area, and sea angling and tourist activities involving the sea, and there is no protection whatsoever for them from the Department of Defence or the lifeboat service.

Surely that is not relevant? Tourism is the responsibility of another Minister. This Minister would have to look after about five Departments if he was to cover all the points raised.

I concur with everything the Chair has said. The Minister is doing an excellent job.

But he has only one Department.

I agree but I am sure that the Minister who has considerable experience in these matters will take note of the remarks I have made. It is of interest to note that Eagle Light is used by all intercontinental flights and, indeed, by all large vessels plying the Atlantic. What more logical place for an improved rescue service? I understand that some spotter planes will help in the fishery protection service. In this connection I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that there are airstrips in Galway and Castlebar and it is proposed to construct one in Belmullet. That Belmullet project could be upgraded to provide first-class landing facilities for those spotter planes which will be involved in fishery protection along the west coast. It would be in the interest of the Department to provide hanger and refuelling facilities at Castlebar and Belmullet so that the spotter planes would not have to return to Baldonnel using up fuel, logging up more engine hours than necessary and short-cutting their trips.

If we are to be serious about the development of spotter aircraft we should adopt the natural course and provide the refuelling and hanger services adjacent to our premier fishing grounds. That will require a brave decision by the Minister but then he is a brave man. A considerable amount of public money has been allocated for the carrying out of a major port development at Ballyglass and it is hoped to have a fish processing plant in operation there before long. We know that the Northern fishermen who take what is their natural right, some Irish fish, from the waters of the Mayo coast —I suppose we are not taking enough fish—will use Ballyglass. I want to know why Ballyglass is not developed to cater for one of our fishery protection vessels. Would it be possible to provide bunkering facilities to allow for the refuelling of at least one of our protection vessels?

It would not cost that much money to locate one of our new protection vessels in Belmullet. That would improve the whole image of the north-western coastline off County Mayo, apart from creating many jobs. The presence of a fishery protection vessel in Belmullet, backed up by improved landing facilities for spotter planes, would be a deterrent to those anxious to rape the wealth of this country as far as fishing is concerned.

It is strange that we continually choose a large vessel for fishery protection purposes. That is not the scene in other more developed countries. As far as the Mayo coastline is concerned a smaller boat located in one of the county ports would be better. It would be more effective in that it would be cheap to run and would be faster. It would only require 20 men to man such a vessel. Fast moving torpedo boats or some such vessels with a proper arsenal, equipment and fire power would do the job admirably. They would be able to move quicker to the poaching scene and be big enough to carry a landing party. Would we get better value for money if we went for smaller boats and had them located in different ports around our coast? It is possible that I do not understand the situation sufficiently well but I feel the protection situation could be enhanced by having such boats located in Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry. The larger boats would, at the same time, be steaming around our coast.

If we get money from the EEC to provide such protection all avenues should be explored. It is possible that because of the inclement weather experienced off the west coast such boats are unsuitable but the larger vessels could deal with situations that arise in inclement weather. I am concerned about the wholesale poaching that goes on up to our coastline in Mayo and that could easily be handled by smaller boats when visibility is good. There is a need for an expanded protection presence off the west coast. If we had that presence we would be able to protect our fish stocks. The people in the west are not satisfied that sufficient protection is being given to our fish or that sufficient rescue facilities are available for operations off the west coast. It is possible that this is because we were not as vocal in the past as some of our Northern neighbours but the House can rest assured that the people of Mayo are now conscious of the wealth that is on their doorstep and of the need for rescue facilities and fishery protection. They will have that voiced at every opportunity from now on. I intend to be in the forefront of that campaign.

There are many other aspects of the Minister's statement with which one could deal, including the aspect of Civil Defence, something in which I am particularly interested. We must be honest when talking about Civil Defence. There are people who are under the impression that this body were founded primarily for the purpose of dealing with a holocaust or with atomic fallout or some such occurrence, but the whole operation of Civil Defence expands beyond that sphere and the question of atomic fallout, for instance, is the least of their worries. But if the Civil Defence organisation is to be effective and if value is to be got from every pound spent on it, there is need for reorganisation of the force. We hear about lists of equipment but I only wish that some Deputies could see some of the stores where the equipment is located and see also the condition of that equipment much of which is almost useless. If it is to be effective and if we have an obligation to provide a Civil Defence service, let us be honest and provide the equipment necessary to improve that service. Let us provide the parking facilities for their trucks, their ambulances and so on. Let us not be referring continually to paper lists, because that is the situation in the Civil Defence.

I notice that the Deputy from Donegal is smiling. Obviously, he approves. There is a need for Civil Defence. We all hope that they will never be called into serious action but the organisation provides training for young people and provides them with an opportunity of becoming involved in another area of the security of the nation. It was not my intention to detain the House for so long on this occasion but sometimes one is——

Carried away.

Not carried away. I wish boats were available, boats in which I could be carried away, but that is not the case. I hope that before too long the new Minister will see his way to provide the boats and the facilities to have them harboured, refuelled and manned by people from the west. If one of those boats was located in the Belmullet area to serve the Mayo coast, there would be a tremendous influx to Slua Muirí. The people down there have a great tradition of seafaring and would be very happy to engage in this activity close to home.

This Estimate is non-controversial. We all wish the Minister well. We realise that the work he must do is in the interest of the nation. It is fair to say that no democracy, and certainly not this one, could have maintained the peace we have had in this part of the country were it not for the efficiency and the loyalty of our Defence Forces. We can be justly proud of them. I wish them well.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I assure the Chair that there is no necessity to note the time at which I am commencing because I have no intention of speaking for any length of time. I rise to deal with one matter in my own constituency. However, before coming to that, I should like to add my voice to the many tributes that no doubt have been paid to the officers and men of the Defence Forces for the fine job they are doing on behalf of the country.

It is good that the lot of the Defence Forces has improved considerably in recent years and that soldiers do not serve now with the sort of sense of grievance that obtained in years gone by when they were paid badly and generally not treated very well. However, all that is behind us and generally now the men are happy and contented and reasonably well paid.

On the question of pay might I mention one matter which concerns also my constituency. I refer to the overnight allowance paid to soldiers on Border duty. It amounts to about £1.50 per night and when compared with other allowances paid—perhaps for the same duty—can show a very unfavourable comparison. I suggest that the Minister give serious thought to increasing that allowance and making a more realistic payment to these men so that the unsociable hours during which they have to work are compensated for to some extent.

In passing I should like to pay tribute to the Army Equitation School and to the Army Jumping Team who down through the years have been a source of pride to the nation when the team and the school were doing well. Indeed for some years and up to comparatively recently we were down-hearted because the Equitation School and the Army Jumping team seemed to have fallen on lean times. I am glad to know that that has changed and that the Army Jumping Team won the Aga Khan Cup last year. They are living up to the best standards of Ireland in respect of horses and horsemanship. Any money spent on the Equitation School for the purpose of buying horses, in training riders, in equipping the school and the team in the best way possible is money well spent and is really a national investment, because our bloodstock is one of our best money spinners. Anything we do to advertise the quality of our horses and the quality of our riders is very much in the national interest. I cannot think of any better way of advertising our horses and bloodstock around the world than by providing the best possible horses for the Army and doing everything possible to provide the best riders. We have the horses and the horsemen and all we have to do is finance the undertaking properly. We will then achieve results as good as those which have been achieved recently.

It is essential that the Army should be well trained, well paid and well housed. Soldiers are stationed in Cavan town in quite unsuitable accommodation. I do not know when the barracks there was built but it must be at least 100 years ago. It is quite unsuitable and is recognised as such by the Army authorities. I appeal to the Minister to remedy that state of affairs. I am sorry that, while there was mention in the Minister's speech of provision for expenditure on barracks in Dublin, Cork and elsewhere, the Cavan barracks was not mentioned. When the National Coalition came into office in 1973 they set about building a barracks in Monaghan town. It was built very quickly and it is a great credit to them. The difficulty about building a barracks in Cavan at that time was that a site was not available. This was not the fault of the former Government; it was the fault of previous Governments who did not provide sufficient land or the money to buy it for industry, housing and projects such as a barracks. The town was starving for land for public purposes. Serious efforts were made in 1973, 1974 and subsequent years to secure a site for a military barracks. I think I am right in saying that even since the change in Government the hunt has gone on for this site. The position has now changed with regard to the availability of land. Within the past few years the local authority have purchased about 100 acres of land in the neighbourhood of Cavan town. There should not be any real difficulty now in securing a site for a barracks.

I do not want to use extravagant language in talking about sewage and vermin but the barracks in Cavan is unsuitable due to age, location, accommodation and amenities. The fact that Army officers from the building unit have visited the town several times in the past few years proves more eloquently than anything I could say that what I am saying is correct. I do not need to use extravagant language or to make extravagant claims. I am appealing to the Minister now to go ahead with the building of this barracks. It would have been built during the term of the former Government if a site had been available.

I compliment the officers and men of the Army on the job they are doing. The strength of the Army is now between 15,000 and 16,000 officers and men and this is a record during peace-time. It is evidence that men and boys are prepared to join the Army and that they are being fairly well looked after and treated.

Without having given much study to it, I want to make one further point. Every effort should be made to give young boys joining the Army a trade or profession that will stand to them in later life. We have apprenticeship courses, but it is my opinion that we should err on the side of what might appear to be extravagance or generosity in making these courses readily available to those who can participate in them. We should make these courses attractive and encourage young men to avail of them. This is not only in the interests of young men who join the Army; it is a national investment. Some of these men leave the Army after a few years and they have many years of work ahead of them. Army personnel who take up civilian jobs render a very good service to the nation and acquit themselves with credit. Any money spent on the provision of these courses to give young men a trade is a national investment.

In speaking on this Estimate it is my great pleasure to be associated with the good wishes to the various sections of the Defence Forces. There is one quite substantial item in the Estimate which has not received very much attention, that is, the provision for sail training. This is a new responsibility for the Department of Defence. As a small nation with a very long coastline it is appropriate that we should be associated with sail training and it is entirely appropriate that it should fall under the aegis of the Department of Defence. Sail training in other countries, including some of the land-locked European countries, is regarded as a very important aspect of national development. Coming late to this activity, we have not as long a history as other maritime nations in this regard. Nevertheless, the present Minister must take much credit for the fact that he has appreciated this deficiency and given a lot of time, effort and energy to rectifying the situation and making sure that this small maritime nation is rightly represented in this sphere. Sail training is an outlet for very many of our youth of all backgrounds. It is not necessarily confined to people from maritime towns or people from fishing towns or villages. It is of very great assistance in character formation in almost any walk of life. It brings together people from all walks of life and gives them an outlook they would not have otherwise.

The most important aspect of it from our point of view is the preservation of that grand old lady the Asgard. The Asgard served the country very well over a long period, very often without the knowledge of anybody in the country. She was designed and built in northern Europe by a very famous international designer to very high standards. She was a wedding present given by the grandfather of the late President Childers to his father, a Boston doctor. She served the Childers family as a holiday home many years before being used for her immortal journey from the North Sea down through the fleet at Spithead for her rendezvous at Howth. She was also very important from another aspect about that time. She enabled Mr. Childers to form the basis for his very famous book The Riddle of the Sands. This book has a very deep influence on our history, whether we like it or not. It is the arch founder of the modern detective novel. It was also the basis for alerting the British people to the possibilities of German invasion before the First World War.

It gave Mr. Childers an access to sources in England which were used to a limited extent by us in certain events which followed at that time. Those doors are still open. There are certain avenues which could still be explored for friendship between our two countries through the Asgard. It is an obscure point but is one which is at total variance with certain points made by the Opposition during the last few months with regard to the name Asgard. There was opposition to the use of this name for the second sail training vessel, which is currently being built at Arklow. I am very glad that the Minister has retained the name because in doing so he has retained that nebulous thread which in my view is very important. Deputies on the far side of the House have attempted to hammer this into the ground. This would not be to the benefit of anybody in the country.

The name of the boat is a nebulous thing in many ways but it is an emotive thing also. It is one we should regard with pride. In regard to Asgard I and her place in the Estimate before us, I congratulate the Minister on his sympathetic handling of that old lady, in seeing that she is preserved with dignity for anybody to have a look at and for future generations. The thread, nebulous as it is, going back to Boston, also has a link with the Kennedy family. A Defence Estimate, through various devious channels, has links over a very wide field. Asgard II, built in Arklow, designed by an Irish-man, built by Irishmen and sailed by Irishmen, is a thread of commercial development which that little port has for a long time, which was lost if it were not for the imaginative act of the Minister in having this boat built.

It is marvellous to see Cork being used for building our protection vessels. We have in one location ships being built for protection and ships being built for education. They are totally different types of boats. One is in wood in traditional style and the other in steel and modern technology, very often of a new type of technology embodying the very latest available both electronically and physically. The Estimate is providing not alone for tradition but also the outlet for a new electronics industry, which is being attracted here, to advance and help our fishery protection. It is tradition hand in hand with modern technology. It is wonderful to see it happening. I welcome the Estimate and thank the Minister for his energy in allying tradition with modern technology in the service of the Irish people.

Before the Minister replies I would like to say that as far as I am concerned he can rest assured that anything which is done to preserve Asgard is to be welcomed.

I believe the point Deputy Fox was making was the link between the name of the old craft and the new one. It was intended to name it something else. I would, first of all, like to thank all the Deputies who contributed to this debate and, in particular, to express my thanks and appreciation for the expressions of goodwill which were made to me in my role as Minister for Defence, particularly from the spokesmen of the two Opposition parties. I would like to assure the spokesmen for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, those who have been charged by their Leaders with responsibility in the field of Defence as front bench spokesmen, that I will at all times seek to provide them with information and to be as co-operative as I can in ensuring a very full understanding by them of the role of our Defence Forces at any particular time and any plans which are afoot which can be disclosed. I have already made the facility available to them whereby they may visit any of the military establishments provided advance notice is given of their request for such a visit. I will be happy to continue that arrangement as long as I am Minister.

I was particularly gratified at the large number of Deputies who contributed to the debate and the wide range of subjects which were discussed under the heading of Defence and Military Pensions and also the deep understanding which is so evident among the Deputies of the tasks which face the Permanent Defence Force, the Army, the Navy, the Air Corps, An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil, An Slua Muirí and the Civil Defence.

Some Deputies mentioned matters appertaining to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, some mentioned matters relating to Fisheries and some referred to EEC matters. I should like to make it clear at the outset that these are not matters on which I should reply, not matters for decision by me as Minister for Defence. They are matters which are rightly the responsibility of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I shall not refer to them in my reply.

Some Deputies asked what was the role of the Army in present circumstances. The primary role of the Defence Forces is to provide a deterrent against and resistance to external aggression. That will always be the primary role of the Defence Forces. They have a secondary role: to provide assistance to the civil power, assistance to the community and assistance to international organisations when requested and when so decided by the Government.

Some Deputies raised the question of the organisation of the Defence Forces. Bearing in mind the primary role I mentioned, I should like to add that the role and functions and numerical establishment will be kept under constant review. A major study of the land forces has been under way in my Department for some time past and up to now decisions have been taken on the question of the territorial organisation of these forces. Up to last year the forces were organised in three commands and the Curragh Training Camp. As a result of the organisational review the Command boundaries were redrawn in 1977 to establish four Commands including the new Curragh Command to which I referred in my introductory remarks and which comprises the former Curragh Training Camp and the southern area of the former Eastern Command.

Deputy White referred to the Fianna Fáil election manifesto and references in it to matters appertaining to the Department of Defence. I think he said he was disappointed that more progress had not been made in implementing the proposals for Defence which it contained. It was never stated that the items contained in the manifesto in relation to Defence or any other Department would all be implemented in our first year in office. Having said that, I should state exactly what has been happening in regard to these matters under the Defence heading. As regards the question of a new code for the administration of military law, a board of military officers set up by the Adjutant General is examining this matter and they have already furnished an interim report on their deliberations and this is being examined. It was only recently it was made available to me. Amending legislation may be necessary when decisions are reached on the board's final recommendations or on matters which may otherwise need attention.

In my introductory remarks I referred to the establishment of the Women's Service Corps. The departmental committee set up to examine that proposal furnished its first report a short while ago. It contains a number of recommendations covering the most important aspects of the proposal and these are being considered. The committee is continuing its work and what I have is just an interim report at this stage.

Deputy White and Deputy Bermingham sought an assurance that personnel of the new Women's Service Corps would not displace existing civilian employees. Deputy Tower had earlier made representations to me on the same subject. Perhaps it was a rumour but I do not know where this notion came from; Deputies of all parties seem to have had representations about it. I want to make it quite clear that it is not intended that any civilian employee will lose her job as a result of the establishment of the new corps. Any fears or doubts in the matter can be set at rest.

The manifesto referred to the introduction of a new and fairer system of promotion. Promotion procedures are under investigation. Inquiries as to procedures in other countries have been instituted and the military authorities are considering the importance that should attach to seniority in the context of promotions. Since the change of Government the existing system is being applied fairly and with due regard to the recommendations of the Chief of Staff. Whatever system is finally accepted the Minister's statutory function as the promoting authority in respect of officers of the Defence Forces will remain of paramount importance.

Deputy Flanagan referred to promotions and allegations that had been made in that regard. I do not wish to go back and rake over cold embers in regard to allegations made or events that may have happened before I became Minister. I should prefer to let all that settle and take up the task I have been given from the day of my appointment. I do not wish to go back and make comparisons about what was or was not done by the Coalition, whether they were right or wrong in what they did. That is the atmosphere in which I should like to work in my Department. Sufficient, I believe, has been said about that and I do not wish to refer in my reply to what was said that could be deemed to be of that nature.

Our manifesto also referred to reduction of the age limits. The arrangement whereby captains, commandants and lieutenant-colonels may be retained to 60 years of age, which is the normal retiring age for a colonel, without interfering with the normal flow of promotion has been well established. If normal retiring ages are to be reduced, the question of the practicability of maintaining this arrangement would arise. When the current security situation eases it is likely that it will prove necessary to discontinue or substantially modify the current arrangement. At this point of time I merely want to say that I shall keep the matter under review. I have no immediate plans to bring about a drastic reduction in age limits as such.

The manifesto also mentioned the question of access to Army hospitals for retired servicemen who may require treatment. Under current legislation members of the Defence Forces on full-time service and persons in receipt of temporary disability pensions under the Army Pensions Acts in respect of their disabilities due to service are provided with medical and hospital treatment in military hospitals. An outpatient clinic for Old IRA pensioners is also provided at St. Bricin's Hospital. The question of giving access to Army hospitals to retired servicemen requiring treatment is a complex one. One must have regard to military requirements, particularly when the Permanent Defence Forces are at high strength, as they are now, to the limitations imposed by the structure of the hospital facilities available and the services available for ex-servicemen under the Health Acts. Examination of the subject is continuing in order to determine the financial and other implications of the proposal and the feasibility and practicability of extending treatment to ex-servicemen.

Another matter was the training scheme to prepare men due for discharge for outside employment and the question of further assistance by educational grants if required after discharge. Military service of itself involves the acquisition of a skill which would be useful in helping men on discharge to obtain civilian employment. Some examples of the type of skills which are acquired while serving in the forces are: driver, cook, clerk, fireman, switchboard operator, photographer, barber. There is a long list of other trades.

NCOs and privates over 40 years of age may be released for AnCO industrial training courses. This scheme was introduced in 1970 and is available to the men. The Department are at present in correspondence with the Department of Labour with a view to waiving the fee which AnCo are now seeking in respect of an NCO who is anxious to undergo an industrial training course with them. A scheme exists whereby personnel are registered with AnCo as apprentices in various trades, such as fitter, motor mechanic, sheet metal worker, bricklayer, plasterer, painter and decorator. These personnel attend either full-time off-the-job courses or day release courses. These are separate from the usual Army and Air Corps apprenticeship competitions.

There are a number of schemes and special facilities available to men of the Permanent Defence Force which would help to enhance their prospects of obtaining employment when they are discharged. Following our commitment in the manifesto, I am having the matter examined to see what further measures can be taken in this area. This examination will seek to determine the extent of the resettlement problem and will consider the possibility of having greater regard in military training generally to the question of civilian employment when they come to leave the Permanent Defence Force. Under each of the headings mentioned in the manifesto I have initiated action. Some of them will require very deep study before any steps are taken.

The one I have advanced most rapidly is the question of establishing the new Women's Service Corps. This has put a great strain on certain members of the Department staff and military personnel and I am pleased with the outcome of their deliberations so far in implementing this commitment on behalf of the Government. I expect we will be in a position to introduce the first ladies to the women's corps of the Army some time around the autumn. I hope full and adequate arrangements will have been made by us in the interim period to ensure the smooth transition and introduction of the ladies to the Army. I feel they have an important role to play.

It is evident from the response from the community, and women in particular, that there is a great interest on the part of women to play a role in our Defence Forces. We do not envisage that women will be involved in any combat duties. I expect I will have the full support of the House in that. Front line work should be a man's job. There are a wide range of tasks which can be very competently performed by female members of the Army. I would like to thank Deputies from the Opposition Parties for their support for the steps taken by the Government in this direction. It augurs well for the women's corps if there is complete unanimity for its establishment.

May I ask the Minister a question on that? I take it that——

You should wait until the Minister finishes.

I should state at this stage that the debate covers such a wide area that it may not be possible for me to reply to every specific question raised.

My question was: will it take new legislation before the women's corps comes into operation?

It will require certain changes in legislation.

Will it have to come before the House?

Yes. I was asked by a number of Deputies whether the Defence Forces establishments were to be increased. There are no proposals at present to increase the establishment in regard to the Army. The House will accept that in regard to the Navy and the Air Corps it will be necessary to increase the establishment because of the expanding role we are being asked to play in the enforcement of fishery regulations.

On 31 December the establishment figure for the Navy was 636. That has since been increased to 729—a major increase since Christmas. It is my intention to press ahead with further substantial increases in the establishment figure for the Naval Service.

Can the Minister give us an idea of how many? I know this is difficult.

It is difficult. At this moment in time I see a need for an increase of approximately 200 in that establishment figure. With the vastly increased area to be patrolled following the extension of the fishery limits to 200 miles, one will readily agree that there will be need for more than a doubling of the establishment figure in the Navy. I can see it grow to a figure of possibly 1,500 in the next few years but no decision has been made on that matter.

It is not so bad to get these things on the record.

In December last the establishment figure for the Air Corps was 869. No decision has been made to increase it but it obviously will have to be increased. Announcements will have to be made about that in the not too distant future.

I take it that the Minister will give active consideration to increasing the establishment figure of the Air Corps?

It is under consideration at present. It will be necessary for us to increase the air surveillance back-up for the Naval Service enforcing the fishery regulations. We are already using one King Airplane which is on lease to the Government and active consideration is being given to the acquisition of a further aeroplane for surveillance purposes. This places an extra duty on the Air Corps which will require an increase. It is already accepted that there is a need for a substantial increase in the number of pilots.

There has been a big drain on the number of qualified pilots, particularly the more experienced men, in recent times arising from vacancies in Aer Lingus. This is a national need the Air Corps helped to meet. Young men who have become cadets in the Air Corps and received training in flying have gone on to successful professional careers in the national commercial airline. This places a great strain on the personnel in the Air Corps to ensure an adequate number of instructors and with the increased demands now being made. This is an area I am giving some thought to and I intend to take some measures to increase the intake into the Air Corps to enlarge the training facilities and the number of personnel available to carry out that instruction. It is obvious that the Naval Service and the Air Corps have been under a strain for some time past and that the expansion of both services is a matter of immediate importance.

The King Airplane is on lease and I take it that until the £30 million comes in we will not be able to get reimbursed. Perhaps the Minister would consider buying two King Airplanes.

Many Deputies seem to feel we had this £30 million lying on the table and were in a position to avail of it. This is not so. The discussions among our partners in the EEC with regard to our fishery policy have not been finalised. There has been a commitment in regard to the amount of money which will be made available to assist the Irish Government in acquiring the planes and boats they would need adequately to patrol the 200-mile limit on behalf of the Community.

There has not been agreement in the discussions on fishery policy and the money will not be made available until agreement is reached. We sought 75 per cent of the cost of the expansion and we decided on the figure of £40 million. Agreement in principle is all that has emerged for a figure of £30 million, 75 per cent of our estimate. We will be claiming that amount retrospectively for the patrolling we have already been doing.

In reference to the Naval Service, it has been increased at an enormous rate—100 per cent in the past 18 months. We had three mine sweepers and the Deirdre and we now have two patrol vessels plus the Ferdia and the Setanta. The Ferdia is on lease and is being returned to its owners and it is planned to lease another vessel as replacement. Deputy Cogan referred to the intake of engineering and deck officers. It takes some time to train them, approximately five years for engine room artificers, and I should like to inform the House that a public competition for naval cadets is being considered as well as some major improvements in conditions. To expand a navy at the rate now planned by us it is necessary to improve conditions for those serving and to attract people to make their career in the service. I am examining the conditions and where improvements can be made I will have them brought about.

There are great attractions for engineers in outside employment.

It is incumbent on us now to improve conditions so that the attractions offered by commercial firms outside do not attract our men away. There is a seagoing allowance of 71p per day payable to all ranks. I have this under review and I hope to be able to improve the payment of that allowance in the near future.

A number of Deputies asked about the possibility of having a helicopter pad on fishery protection vessels. The idea seems attractive and when I was at Verolme at the launching of the Éimear I mentioned to some press people that I hoped the next protection vessel we built would have a helicopter pad and all the ancillary facilities necessary for such a vessel. In the event I agreed to place an order for another vessel which did not have a helicopter pad. My reason for doing so was that if we were to have a vessel completely newly designed with a pad, hangar and other necessary facilities it would have to go to the drawing board stage and that would mean delaying the placing of an order for our newest fishery protection vessel, and we could not afford to wait another year before getting the keel laid in Cork. I asked military personnel, the director of the Navy and the officers of the Department to open up negotiations with dockyard for the ordering of another vessel which is to be on the lines of the Éimear. I had to cut down to the shortest possible time the gap between the commissioning of the Éimear and of the new vessel—I must put a name on the new vessel soon because it is difficult to be referring to it as “the vessel that is being built in Cork”.

Deputy Kerrigan will appreciate that the employment given in the Cork Dockyard because of the building of the protection vessel is very valuable to the local community. I had representations from the shop stewards on the day of the launching and subsequently I was happy to instruct the officers of the Department to place the order.

In regard to the new vessel, I will have to be convinced by naval experts and by the experience of other countries involved extensively in fishery protection of the benefit of having a helicopter on board such a vessel. It will naturally pose great problems of maintenance of the helicopter because of the salt water. From inquiries made by those who have helicopters on board fishery protection vessels I have found that the use they make of the helicopter is not all that great and because of the additional cost its viability is questionable.

Debate adjourned.
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