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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Apr 1978

Vol. 305 No. 8

Vote 29: Environment (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £201,684,000 be granted to defrey the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of December, 1978, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes and grants including a grant-in-aid.
—(Minister for the Environment.)

The Minister in his introductory speech drew attention to the very large size of the Estimate for his Department. The total, including the Supplementary Estimate, amounts to over £206 million, which is a sizeable amount and an amount which identifies the Department as one of the most vital and important areas of Government and Government policy. The change of name from "Local Government" to "Environment" was long overdue and is appropriate because, as the title suggests, it embraces many aspects of our everyday lives, our homes, the air we breathe, the streets and roads we travel on, the public parks and so on.

There are specific aspects of the Department which affect some people more than others. Housing and the cost of housing affects every family, and it is this subhead that stands out above all others. The total sum to be directed to housing is something in the region of £143 million. This covers housing subsidies, private housing grants and the abolition of rates on private residential accommodation. The removal of rates was long overdue. Rates in the form we operated them were grossly unjust because they were a penal tax for having one's own home. This tax has not been wiped out completely on residential accommodation because a number of landlords, especially in Dublin, have not passed on the benefit of the abolition to their tenants. The whole purpose of abolition is to give relief to householders and residents, and many flat dwellers need this relief very badly. The Minister should investigate the many complaints being received and this House should ensure that justice is done where flat dwellers are concerned.

The Estimate is geared to create badly needed improvement in the building and construction industry. If this industry is active and in a healthy condition many benefits accrue to other sectors. That is true today, more so than ever before. During the last two years when depression hit the building industry in a really serious way many other facets of our industrial economy were equally badly affected. Building and construction has many tentacles stretching out into many other industrial and commercial spheres giving, or taking away, as the case may be, many thousands of jobs dependent on the condition of the main industry.

I am very pleased that the Minister has made improvements in housing loans, SDA loans, low mortgage loans and improvement grants and loans. I would dearly wish that improvement grant payments could be speeded up in some way. In many cases the grants have not been paid out for what seems to be an extraordinarily long period. Those on fixed incomes who carry out very necessary and long overdue repairs or improvements depend on these grants and expect reasonably fast payment of the grants. Long and seemingly unnecessary delays cause great hardship and worry. I would ask the Minister to see if this situation could be improved from the administration point of view.

Representing a Dublin constituency, I sometimes despair when I pause to consider the very serious environmental and housing problems that exist, especially in the north city inner area. The problem is so vast and varied that it is obvious that only a very large capital crash programme will bring about a reasonable solution to the problem. Some Opposition Members who have been public representatives for some years seem to have only recently discovered, since last June approximately, what is now commonly referred to as the inner city problem both inside and outside this House. The inner city problem has been festering for many years, and during the period in office of the previous Government the deterioration accelerated at an alarming rate. One has only to walk around the city within a radius of a mile from O'Connell Street to see the undeveloped state and the decay of what was once a really living fair city. Taking a look at some of the houses, which I would describe as just standing, is an experience in itself, but to think that there are families living in many of these houses should make every one of us ashamed.

We also have what are commonly referred to as high rise flats. These areas have been run down over the years. As a result of this some of these areas are now slums with all the social problems of juvenile crime, vandalism and the lack of real opportunities for the children and young people from these areas. Not alone do such areas affect normal domestic life, they also affect employment opportunities for the people living there. I can assure the House that the majority of people who live in those areas are decent people. Unfortunately they lose job opportunities which they are entitled to because of their addresses.

We must look at the whole question of urban housing and change many of the decisions that were previously taken. At one time multi-storey flats such as Ballymun seemed to be the answer to the housing problem, but in the past few years we have discovered that the social disadvantages of these flats outweigh everything else. Many of our city flat complexes are depressing, and they tend to breed the type of social problems that we hear about every day.

The Dublin Corporation housing department have made great progress in their approach to those seeking accommodation despite the serious shortage of dwellings in the city. In his speech the Minister said that 1,640 dwellings were completed last year and he estimates that 3,000 families were rehoused in 12 months. It should be borne in mind that much of the rehousing would not be acceptable to a family seeking a decent home. A great part of the existing corporation housing is substandard. I believe that the number of people seeking corporation housing will increase in future.

Many of the problems that I encounter at my weekly clinic deal with housing and I am sure that other Dublin Deputies can say the same. At present, many of the deserving housing cases have little chance of getting decent acommodation because of the points system of allocating houses. Any Dublin city public representative knows that the number of applicants for accommodation in any scheme being developed by the corporation exceeds availability by as much as eight to one. The most sought after area is Dublin north central where the limited available acommodation is mainly in flats. This is a real identification that many people prefer to live in or near the city centre. There is an onus on all of us to effect changes for improvement in the housing situation. Dublin is still developing at a fast pace and in a few years the population will exceed one million. Other capital cities have had to face the same problems, and many European countries are presently working on gigantic plans for finance at national levels.

The Dublin Corporation housing programme includes areas which are commonly known as open areas. An open area means that you can be easily rehoused because few people will accept a house in such an area. As a result slum areas are being created in the heart of the city. The city centre and surrounding area should be a showpiece in a capital city, which is normally the hub of attention. It is usual for visitors to tour the city centre and I imagine that many of them leave Dublin with a poor view of it which will not encourage their friends to visit Ireland.

There are about 800 families squatting in Dublin at present. Many of them have been evicted for non-payment of rent and for squatting. Following eviction by the corporation these families are pushed into the open areas that I referred to, mainly in the city centre in areas such as Seán McDermott Street, Gardiner Street and Sherriff Street, areas in which repairs and maintenance are at a minimum level. Before long these areas become known as ghettos or slums and are so bad that not even squatters will take accommodation in them.

The onus is on us to come up with a new deal for the deprived areas of the city. This will take a big financial injection but it must be done. If it is not, we will stand accused for all time for not making an effort to rescue our society from the depths of despair. Our Party is committed to urban renewal and work must commence without too much delay.

Many landlords are charging exorbitant rents for old and decaying houses, and the system of taking out closing orders or CPOs should be speeded up. There are a large number of such houses in my constituency and some of the landlords are using the law cleverly to delay the processing of closing orders. Meanwhile, there are tenants in those houses—old people and married couples with young children— which most of us would not consider suitable for our animals. Many of them lack proper sanitary facilities and are in such bad condition that rain water comes through the walls and the roof. In some cases, conditions are so bad inside that beds are constantly moved around because they are going through the floor boards. These conditions are real. Until some legal process is speeded up and completed, the housing department cannot and will not do anything for such tenants.

This is not right in this day and age. Certainly it is morally wrong. As we all know, bad housing is a real and important factor in the generation of poverty and its perpetuation. The most determined efforts of families to improve their conditions and raise themselves above the poverty line are defeated by the miserable conditions in which they are often forced to live. The whole basis of society can be seriously damaged. A considerable number of young couples are under terrible strain because of their inability to find suitable accommodation, or because of the terrible surroundings in which they live.

The new housing grant of £1,000 for first time buyers has been very well received, particularly by young people anxious to buy their own homes. It is a vast improvement on the older type grants which have now been discontinued. I know of many cases so far where the new grant has proved to be the decisive factor in a couple's decision to purchase their own home. This has also meant and will mean, I hope, a further upsurge in the private house building industry. From figures available so far, it has meant an additional 1,100 jobs up to the end of 1977. The additional demand for private housing unfortunately attracts its dangers in the way of selves above the poverty line are dehigher prices caused by speculators. This has the effect of defeating the Government's whole objective, which is to help people buy their own homes and to create additional jobs in the building and construction industry.

It is appreciated that there will be natural price increases due to increased labour and material costs, and so on. The Minister must do everything possible to ensure that builders, developers, or speculators, or whoever, do not inflate prices merely to cash in on the present market upsurge and the increasing demand for new houses. Nowadays more and more houses are going up on estates, generally at prices ranging from £23,000 upwards. The emphasis which at one time was on a house price to suit young couples has swung over very decisively to the more luxurious home.

This may be fine for the established family choosing to change house, to change area or district, but it makes it extremely difficult for those setting up home for the first time. It does not give them wide selectivity or choice. It is common now to hear of couples paying over £120 per month in repayment of a mortgage. Therefore it is not surprising that the working wife must continue working to help to meet such large repayments together with the usual outgoings involved in running a home.

I should like to refer briefly to the low mortgage scheme which is available for local authority housing. This scheme is very well intentioned and could undoubtedly fulfil a specific purpose but, in its present form, it is of very little benefit to those for whom it was originally set up. The maximum amount available is £7,500 and a means test or a means limit is a condition. The irony is that there is no means test for those applying for corporation housing tenancies. There is no encouragement for an applicant to consider purchasing a house privately. The Minister should look into this point with a view to bringing some reality into it, particularly in the light of the serious housing shortage in the city at present.

I am glad the Minister is planning to increase the money to be spent on road development by as much as 40 per cent over last year's expenditure. Generally speaking, some of our main roads, such as the Dublin-Cork road, the Dublin-Limerick road and so on, are quite good, but many link roads are in a deplorable condition. In this area much increased employment can be achieved. Under this Estimate an additional 1,200 road workers will be employed.

In Dublin city, traffic has become a major headache. Traffic jams continue to be a very big problem. The newly erected Talbot Bridge has done nothing to ease traffic coming from the north side. Indeed, I have received many complaints that the opposite is the case. Workers are finding that they must leave their homes earlier as longer delays are taking place in getting to work and in coming from work in the evening. Even during the day we now have traffic building up as far back as North Strand Road. This is something we did not experience previously, and particularly during the off peak hours.

The whole question of heavy commercial traffic through the city centre during the day and at peak hours should be re-examined. It is ridiculous to see juggernauts and heavy containers being driven through the city centre at peak times. Apart from the fact that many of our streets are not suitable for such heavy traffic, people coming to and going from work are seriously affected and, in many cases, are actually pushed off the roads. The size of the traffic is intimidating to the average motorist.

Such heavy traffic is also a serious cause of air pollution when one considers the fumes rising into the air when traffic blocks the streets. For instance, if one is going through Pearse Street any afternoon from 5 o'clock to 6 o'clock one has only to look at the condition of the buildings and cannot but be seriously concerned. Constant checks should be maintained and deliberate offenders causing this pollution should be quickly brought to book. There must also be a very strict monitoring of industries, particularly industries engaged in chemical processing. The environment should not be put at risk even due to the expected increase in industrial activity. This is very important to the health of our people, our children and future generations.

Unfortunately the death toll and the number of accidents on our roads continue. Every weekend there is a serious accident resulting in death. Alcohol plays a very big part in too many road accidents. There is concern that the breathalyser has had to be suspended. This was due to the various technical loopholes that were brought to light. If we are to judge by the numbers of cars to be seen outside the many public houses there are many people who drive after heavy drinking. I am not referring to the person who takes a drink socially and who is responsible in regard to his driving, but there are far too many of the other kind. These people are a menace not only to themselves but to all other road users. There should be more Garda activity in this area. Slaughter on the roads has reached alarming proportions and has been responsible for as much loss of life as has been experienced in Northern Ireland as a result of the troubles there.

I have no sympathy whatever with the James Hunts who drive to their destinations as if they should have got there hours earlier. However, on good open roads there is a case to be made for increasing the speed limit to 70 miles per hour. This could provide the safety value that is needed by so many of our drivers.

There is a case to be made, too, for more consistency in the courts in relation to traffic offences. The various district justices deal with such offences in different ways. The average motorist is very careful in a certain southern area, for instance, in regard to speed while in other areas motorists are prepared to take chances. There is a big difference between the prospect in one area of a 12-months suspension and the prospect of a small fine in another area. Another important factor in regard to road safety is the condition of cars and other vehicles. There are far too many vehicles on the road that are in such condition as to render them a danger. Consequently many accidents are caused without any apparent reason. In this city there are many backlane garages and in some of these premises cars that are written off following accidents are literally put together again. A person can be fooled by a good repaint job when he goes looking for a car at a reasonable price. When a vehicle is considered a writeoff by an insurance company the onus should be on the company to ensure that that vehicle is scrapped beyond reassembly, thereby eliminating the possibility of an unscrupulous car dealer putting together again what were twisted chassis and frames.

In a country where there is so much dependence on tourism it is regrettable that many of our main roads are not properly signposted. Although there has been much improvement in this regard down through the years, not enough has been done. Anybody travelling around the country will find signposts that have been turned in opposite directions by vandals or immature people. This causes much confusion to travellers. Local councils should use a more sturdy type of signpost in order to eliminate this vandalism.

There have been suggestions that in Dublin the Royal Canal should be filled in and developed as a motorway, but in this city, as in any other city, efforts should be made to improve whatever amenities remain. A water way in a city can be very attractive but it must be properly maintained. Unfortunately the general condition of the Royal Canal leaves much to be desired. Last weekend I walked along the canal bank for some distance from Jones's Road, and apart from the very dirty water that had receded almost two feet from the bank I saw in the canal such items as old bicycle frames, prams and a collection of other rubbish as well as two animal carcases.

Dublin Corporation appointed a committee for the purpose of maintaining the canal and an effort was made recently to clean it up. Such efforts should be sustained. The condition of the canal is disgraceful. I trust that those people charged with the task of maintaining the canals will ensure that the situation improves. The imposition of penalties for dumping refuse in our waterways would be a deterrent in this regard.

Under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1976, local authorities may assist those engaged in animal welfare. However, I do not think that authorities are flexible enough in this respect. In this city there is an enormous number of stray cats and dogs. This situation causes very serious problems, particularly in large housing areas. These animals are set free and go hungry around the streets. I note that the Minister will be advising local authorities of new powers to deal with this problem. The ISPCA are doing a very good job in difficult circumstances, but they continually engage in what can be called a clearing up process, that is, the removal of stray animals from the streets.

For some time people involved in the area of animal welfare have been advocating the neutering of dogs and cats in order to control their numbers. Such operations are being carried out privately but unfortunately not enough people realise how serious is the problem of strays. Recently a hotel in this city found it necessary to call in animal welfare specialists because the hotel grounds had become over-run by wild cats. During a couple of weeks 200 wild cats were caged, many of which were badly deformed. There are similar problems in the city centre. Unless some form of control is imposed, this problem will have very serious consequences in the future. There are great demands on the Department of the Environment. I wish the Minister well in the expenditure of the large sums of money on various environmental improvements and the completion of the programmes envisaged.

I am sorry the Minister has gone out of the House. I only want to speak on one aspect of his Department's activity which almost amounts, probably not intentionally, to a confidence trick in regard to the £1,000 new house grant. This grant is available, by definition, to what are termed first-time buyers. If a couple are involved neither the husband nor the wife can previously have owned a house, either here or abroad. I am sure 90 per cent of the applicants for this grant are young couples getting married who will not have the same experience in life as people 40, 50 and older have. The normal way they go about buying their house is that they see an advertisement on some newspaper saying that a new estate is opening. This advertisement invariably has the words "grant-type houses" inserted in it. The person who puts in the advertisement means by that that the physical dimensions of the house are those laid down by the Department of the Environment for a grant under the old grant scheme. The description is still being used.

The young couple, whether they are just married or engaged, find great difficulty in bridging the gap between the price of the house and the amount of money they can borrow. They know that £1,000 which would be of great assistance to them in bridging this gap, is available under what is called the £1,000 new house grant. They go out, generally on a Sunday, to see this house. There is usually a show-house available and the girl is attracted to it. An agent for the builder is on the site. Those young people are not as fully informed as they should be when they sign up to purchase what is the major investment they will make in their lifetime.

This young couple go to a building society and tell them that they have been to see a particular estate and the price of the house is £12,000, £13,000 or whatever it may be. The building society, the insurance company, the local authority or whoever is dealing with them agree to advance them a proportion of the money to purchase that house. They frequently use the same solicitor as the builder through ignorance and because in many cases they have no solicitor of their own or they do not know a solicitor. In 99 per cent of the cases this builder is a very competent, well known, and reputable person.

The principle of having the same solicitor for the purchaser and the seller is wrong. In a television programme last Sunday dealing with this matter it was shown that in the case of one in three or maybe more of the young people who bought those houses, the contract was drawn up on their side by the same solicitor acting for the builder. The young couple sign a contract to purchase this house and they are committed to purchasing the house at the price the builders put on it, which building societies are now accepting and giving loans on as being houses worth the money the builders charge. When they have entered into this contract the young couple write to the Department of the Environment applying for their £1,000 grant. They are sent back an application form which they fill up and they are told to return this form signed by the builder and enclosing the certificate of reasonable value which the builder has so that they can be paid their £1,000.

The young couple go back to the builder, who says that he cannot get a certificate of reasonable value from the Department, that he has applied for one and he has been turned down at the price he is charging for the houses. They go back to the Department and are told that the price being charged by the builder is higher than they think is reasonable for those houses and they will not issue a CRV to that builder for that house. They are told they cannot get their £1,000 house grant.

This young couple have contracted to buy a house at £12,000, £13,000 or whatever the price is. If it is £13,000 the Department say it should only be £12,500 so they cannot get the £1,000 grant. There seems to be no way of unlocking this problem for young couples. The Department are perfectly right in seeing that the houses being erected are of reasonable value. The builder considers that the price he is charging for the house is the price that allows him to pay for his materials and wages and also make a profit. The building society evidently agree with the builder because they are willing to lend him money on the basis of the builder's price, but the Department say that the house should be priced at less than that. I know of one case where they said the house should be £3,000 less. There is obviously some thing very wrong there. In most cases the gap is less than that.

This young couple feel they have been conned. I can see the Department's point of view quite clearly. The young couple feel they were promised £1,000 if they bought a new house, but they are not getting that because the Department say that the house they have contracted to buy is not reasonable value at the price the builder is charging. It is obvious that the Department must make an effort to control the price of houses. I believe somebody said here last week that the price of houses in the last six months had gone up by over 20 per cent. It is obvious that the builders will get as much as they can for the houses they are building.

Of course, the brake on the builders up to the time the new grant was introduced was that they had to apply to the Department for it. Therefore the builders were going to keep on the right side of the Department by keeping their house prices within a certain limit so that they would qualify for the certificate of reasonable value. That position has changed because it is the purchaser of the house who gets the grant. A builder does not care as long as he gets his price for the house. He does not mind how the purchaser finds the finance.

In the last few weeks the Department issued booklets and had advertisements inserted in the newspapers warning young couples about the trap they might be letting themselves in for. From conversations I have had with other Members I am aware that there are hundreds of young couples who, because of their lack of experience, have contracted to buy houses which will not qualify for the new grant. In contracting to buy the house the couples understood that they would qualify for the £1,000 grant but because some builders will not agree to the level of price the Department demands they will not issue the certificate of reasonable value. I should like to add that the Department rightly ceased to control the price of housing. Those couples are worse off than they were before the introduction of the grant. Houses have increased in price but I cannot say if the increase is justified or not. I contacted the Central Statistics Office to find out the level of increase in the price of building materials over a period and I learned that it has increased by more than the normal rate of inflation. However, it is certain that materials have not increased by the same figure that houses have increased, as mentioned last week in the House, 20 or 25 per cent. The Minister will have to find some way of protecting those young couples who have never had any experience of dealing with builders, solicitors or the Department before. He should see to it that they do not suffer because of a dispute between his Department and building contractors. He should see to it that they are not led into a position where they sign a contract to purchase a house on the understanding that they will qualify for the £1,000 grant but discover later that the house does not qualify. They should not be left in a position of having to find an extra £1,000 over and above the amount needed to bridge the gap between the loan they will obtain from the building society or the insurance company and the builder's price of the house. In view of the escalation in house prices over the last six months the Minister will have to do something about this situation. Can builders of private houses be made apply to the National Prices Commission, as normal traders and manufacturers have to do, before they increase prices? Can the Minister of State answer that question? I am aware that it is not his field but I would be obliged if he would find out that information for me.

The Minister will be replying and he will deal with that matter.

The Minister may not get an opportunity of replying for at least two months but this is an urgent problem.

I am sure the Deputy will agree that it is most unusual to ask a Minister to answer questions during a debate.

I can recall answering one for you when you were in Opposition and I was a Minister.

I was not in order, just as the Deputy is not in order now.

Precedents are created.

I will pass the Deputy's query on to the Minister and ask him to communicate with the Deputy.

Perhaps it can be arranged that a note will be given to the Deputy during the day in reply to his question.

I have been trying to get in on this debate for the past three weeks because I cannot get any progress for the people in my constituency who approached me about this matter. Those people feel they are being done out of £1,000. I understand the position of the Department in not allowing house prices to go through the ceiling. If the figure in relation to the increase in house prices in the last six months which was quoted here last week is correct there is a greater onus on the Department to sit on the private house builders and make them justify the prices they are charging. Obviously, the Department do not wish to tie a builder to an unprofitable price because of the danger of putting builders out of business. All too frequently in the last few years we have heard of builders going into liquidation and we know of the problems that caused. I am sure the Department are reasonable when dealing with builders, but caught in this web are the young couples who set about purchasing their own home on the assumption that they would qualify for the £1,000 grant. They are now faced with a problem because of a fight between the Department and the builders, something which is none of their business. I accept that in one regard the Department are protecting the interest of house buyers. The houses concerned may only be £300 or £400 over the Department's limit but the house-buyers still do not qualify for the grant. I am aware that one house was held to be £3,000 over the limit by the Department. That is disgraceful.

I accept that the public relations in regard to this grant scheme improved recently, but as against that I am now informed that builders are not interested in erecting houses that will qualify for the grant. They are moving on to houses costing between £20,000 and £25,000 which, because of the ground floor area, will not qualify for the grant. I am making a plea to the Minister to do something for these young people who are not well off. In most cases the young wives must work for some period after marriage in order to earn the money needed to furnish the house. The Minister should consider that they are making the biggest investment of their lives. Admittedly, in most cases it is being made without adequate preparation but they are making the investment in the euphoria of an engagement and a prospective marriage. I know of dozens in my constituency who are in that position and I expect there are hundreds in the same position throughout the country. It is essential that the Minister do something very urgently to control the price of houses by referring them to the Prices Commission, or by devising some method whereby he can refuse to issue a certificate of reasonable value to the builder but at the same time so that he would not deprive young couples of their grant.

This is not the biggest problem for the Minister and his Department, and it is not the problem which will cost most money, but for each one of these couples it is probably the biggest problem they will ever have to face and the Minister must, in fairness, do something to sort out this problem. It is the Minister's responsibility; he issues the certificate and deals with the builders, and he is offering the £1,000 grant which many young couples felt they had been conned into signing for when it was not available to them when they actually went to get it from the Department. The Minister was missing for most of what I have said, but I am sure his officials will inform him. I received a letter from one young couple who informed me that they had gone to a Deputy, who is now a Minister, in a neighbouring constituency of mine. That Deputy wrote to the Minister and received a reply saying that the price being charged for the house was outside the limit for the certificate of reasonable value and that the £1,000 grant could not be granted. I would ask the Minister to look into this problem and not to wait until he is replying to the debate. I know that when replying to the debate the Minister will say that it is his duty to see that people get reasonable value for the houses they buy. I agree with that, but there is a human problem here in relation to people who have no experience in dealing with Ministers, Government Departments or solicitors, who are caught in this trap where they expected to receive £1,000 because they were first-time house purchasers. I know it is not an easy problem to solve but I would be grateful if the Minister would look into this as a matter of urgency to facilitate these couples.

The Department of the Environment, formerly the Department of Local Government, is the most important Department in the Government because it is designed to regulate the progress of the country and because of its involvement with local authorities, town commissioners and urban councils throughout the country. It is only proper that an Estimate of this significance should receive adequate consideration in the House. When the Minister took office in July last year he had to deal with an enormous task relating to the entire activities of the former Department of Local Government. The housing grant schemes were practically non-existent. Local authorities had not the necessary finance to embark upon any ambitious housing programmes. Funds for water and sewerage schemes were insignificant to meet the high cost of the services in each country. I am glad to see that a start has been made in relation to these problems. Local authorities throughout the country are being notified of generous allocations from this Department to enable them to get on with the work which they were set up to do.

The new house grant was dealt with at length by the previous speaker, who referred to it as a confidence trick. The £1,000 grant has reinvigorated the building industry. It has encouraged many people to build their own homes, and if it had not been for the introduction of this grant many of the houses now being constructed throughout the country would not be under construction. That we have something like 11,000 applications for the new house grant is a clear indication of the interest people are showing in this new grant. It is a clear indication that they are willing to avail of this scheme to provide themselves with new homes. We must remember that everybody who provides a new home is creating something of value to the nation. He is making a major contribution towards the jobs creation programme which is required at present. The building industry which makes full use of Irish manufactured goods is one of our greatest sources of employment. Practically all the materials required for house building can be produced in Ireland. We have an abundance of gravel, sand and rock. We have an abundance of cement being manufactured in Ireland. Due to the advancement of our forestry programme over the years we have a sizeable amount of native timber which is now available for the building industry. We also have the materials for roofing, doors, windows and so on. The building industry has taken remarkable strides in the recent past because of the £1,000 grant. Despite what anybody else says about a confidence trick, there is no confidence trick as far as I can understand. The grant has encouraged people to set up their own homes. As the previous speaker said, the most important step in the lives of any couple is when they set out to provide themselves with their own home. This £1,000 grant has gone a long way towards assisting them in their efforts.

The raising of the income limits for SDA loans has also proved to be a boost to the building industry, but we seem to be arriving at a situation where a further increase in the income limits will be necessary if people are to be encouraged to continue with the building programme. Many people are earning beyond the £3,500 per annum and do not qualify for the local authority grant and therefore must must go to the building societies or somebody else.

With regard to housing costs in general, I question the remarks of the previous speaker that housing costs have increased enormously during the past seven or eight months. The Deputy should get a few more figures and should try to discover the percentage increase which has taken place during the past few months, and the increases that took place in previous years when house building was practically at a standstill. To pay the £1,000 grant in one lump is the correct approach to the problem.

Heretofore local authorities had a haphazard method of processing applications. We discovered that the Minister's predecessor introduced a regulation under which a person qualifying for a local authority grant could earn no more than £39 per week. We all know that anybody earning only £39 per week could not attempt to provide himself with a home. That was the qualifying limit for grant purposes, and there was a similar regulation for the local authority supplementary grant. We should all be delighted that the grants regulations scheme has been simplified, that it is now easier to get the £1,000 grant. There may be the odd case of somebody building a house with a total floor area beyond 1,344 square feet—incidentally the old regulation specified a total floor area of 1,249 square feet—but people can now build a slightly larger house and qualify for the £1,000 grant.

Local authorities also have been receiving increased allocations for the provision of local authority houses. Indeed all local authorities are now gearing themselves to the provision of increased housing in the ensuing year. That is a step in the right direction because, irrespective of grants and loans, we will still have an enormous pile of applicants for rehousing by local authorities. Therefore it is highly important that all local authorities be guaranteed the necessary finance to continue the provision of houses for those people unable to provide for themselves. Local authorities should not be hampered by the fact that they must now pay greatly inflated prices for suitable building land. I would recommend that all local authorities endeavour to extend services to areas beyond our major towns where land can be bought for building purposes more cheaply. Unfortunately we find now that outside of Dublin in our major towns we have housing ghettos. All of the building efforts have been concentrated within the town circle and there have been many resultant problems. The idea was that if the land was available one should try to provide as many houses as possible within the urban boundary and, in some cases, where those boundaries were extended.

I believe a new approach is about to be adopted and needs to be encouraged in the development of our towns and villages adjacent to major industrial centres. It is very important today. Indeed the creation of new activities in our towns and villages is essential, where building land is cheaper and services can be provided.

The increased allocation for water schemes is to be welcomed also, something very much required if we are to achieve and secure the type of development needed for a growing population. The Minister should make a special effort to ensure that more sewerage schemes are implemented. I can speak only of my own country. I find that a village known as Tyrrells-pass, which was chosen to represent Ireland in European Architectural Heritage Year, is still without a proper sewerage system. The same village has also lost valuable industry on that account. I would ask the Minister to ensure that greater efforts are made in the allocation of funds to carry out those types of sewerage schemes, in turn, ensuring development in our smaller towns and villages.

We have also the problem of disease. It is a pathetic sight to see children dabbling in an open sewer system without proper protection. The Minister must ensure that our towns and villages have proper sewerage systems to ensure their proper growth and development in future years. Unfortunately the Minister's predecessor did not give adequate attention to this field. A backlog has built up and the Minister is left to carry the can. I would appeal to the Minister to ensure that sewerage schemes are reinvigorated because that is the only way in which we can guarantee the basis of job creation enterprises, about which we are all so concerned at present. The Department of the Environment and local authorities are the greatest employers we have at present.

The additional moneys allocated this year will go a long way towards creating additional jobs in addition to improving the appearance of our towns and villages. The fact that so many local groups have come together and entered their towns and villages for the Tidy Towns Competition must be applauded and encouraged. The money for the environmental work the Minister has allocated will go a long way in encouraging other groups— tidy towns committees and so on—to enter their towns and villages for the competition. It is a scheme that has been worth while, and the Department of the Environment and local authorities have played a major role in assisting local groups, which must be commended and encouraged.

The group water schemes have played a vital role in the extension of important services to rural areas. We are all indeed pleased to note that the grants towards such schemes have been greatly increased in recent months which will encourage more groups to avail of them and have the necessary works carried out. In that way work can be undertaken much faster than waiting for years until the local authority would eventually implement a scheme. The fact that the grants are liberal at present should be an adequate inducement to the various groups to provide this service themselves. It is one that will benefit rural areas and encourage more people to establish homes there.

The sewerage schemes for reconstruction work have been increased also, as have been the grants for re-construction work, ensuring that the life of existing housing stocks will be protected for longer periods by the owners availing of those increased grants and undertaking the necessary work. Also it will provide greater job opportunities for the small building contractor, the man who is not able to enter the big time business, who is commencing in the building industry. Such people will be afforded new opportunities with the recent increases awarded in reconstruction and water and sewerage grants. The increase in the grant for the provision of additional accommodation for the physically disabled is something that has to be commended also. It has now been increased to £1,300.

With regard to improvement of our roads network, we all realise that we have a long way to go yet before we can say we have a road structure system comparable with other countries. Unfortunately, we are a country still expanding and it will take many years before we can expect to have a roads network which will be equal to that of other more advanced and highly industrialised countries. The increased injection of capital by local authorities this year will result in a higher proportion of their roads being brought to main road standards.

One thing I should like to see is a standardised practice in regard to the construction of roads. In some counties local authorities put up temporary fences which are allowed to remain there for possibly five years. The last job they do after the road work has been completed is to erect permanent fences. That is inconvenient for many reasons. It deprives the land owner of the use of his land and it creates danger as well as inconvenience because the defective fencing allows livestock to wander on to roads to be killed and to cause accidents. Therefore I advocate standardised practice by local authorities in this respect.

In recent months we have been noticing a vast increase in traffic on our roads, and the behaviour of many drivers leaves much to be desired. I suggest that the time has come for the imposition of rigorous speed limits, particularly for the juggernauts which have become so much a part of our country road scene. I appreciate they are obliged to travel at a speed not in excess of 40 mph, but I have had difficulty overtaking them at 60 mph, and they were heavily laden. Their drivers do not seem to show proper concern for law-abiding road users and the result is that a high proportion of road accidents are being cause by juggernauts, either through carelessness or defective vehicles. We have had serious accidents in which people have been killed or badly injured and property damaged. This is not peculiar to Ireland alone. It happens in many European countries, but until we can lay down lanes on our roads for the exclusive use of juggernauts, we must appeal to those drivers to move more slowly in order to ensure a greater measure of safety.

Reference has been made during the debate to the behaviour of motorists. A great deal remains to be done by way of legislation to compel drivers to have greater respect for other road users. For instance, it is a common practice at night to meet drivers with full headlights on not making any effort to use their dimmers. Indeed some of them, when they are being approached, turn on two extra headlights, forcing oncoming drivers to pull up. They are the road hogs and I do not think it would be difficult to devise legislation to bring them to heel. They are the blackguards of our roads because of their complete disregard for ordinary, careful drivers.

I expect that the drunken driver will be the subject of much comment later in the debate. There should be better legislation to deal with drivers who drink to excess, because those who want to use our roads in safety must be protected. This seems to be more serious here than in other countries and I am sure the Minister is aware of it and that he will take early steps to remedy it.

This Department are also responsible for the country's organised development. During the years, we have had Bills dealing with organised planning and development but it is regrettable to have to say that our legislation seems to be more liberal in this regard than in other European countries. I refer especially to applications for planning permission, particularly in regard to house building and industrial projects, and the system whereby third parties can lodge objections and hold up proper planning and development, including the construction of houses which would give people the right to own their own homes and the building of factories to provide work for our people.

This right of objection is being used widely by people in privileged positions. The objectors may be in State or semi-State employment or they may be employees of local authorities— what we call sheltered employment. They are the type of people who get together in organised groups to prevent development in some areas because they think it is their exclusive right to have peace and seclusion at the expense of those who want houses and those in labour exchange queues who want jobs in new factories, in other words, the under-privileged from whom we never seem to get objections in regard to project development plans. These objections always seem to come from people in permanent pensionable employment. It is deplorable and the Minister will have to introduce legislaton to control it.

When dealing with housing grants earlier I forgot to mention the grants made available recently for the construction of flats or, rather, for the conversion of existing properties into flats. There is, however, another area in which people erect new flats. They do not qualify for grant assistance and I fail to understand why a person converting an old building can get £600 but the person building new flats and providing a needed service does not qualify. In Mullingar and Athlone a number of flats provided in recent years have been taken up because they are a desirable type of accommodation. Therefore I ask the Minister to extend the scheme of grants to such people.

We should have more of that kind of development. Childless couples and single people would also avail of such flats. The trend towards this kind of accommodation has been developing in recent years and it should be encouraged. One way to encourage it would be to include new buildings in the scheme for grants for flats.

My country is in the midlands and people travel through it on their way from the west and from other areas. Such an area should receive additional road grants because of its geographical location and because of the enormous amount of traffic that uses the roads. In my county we are in the centre of a road from Belfast to Cork and from Dublin to Galway and, consequently, a considerable volume of traffic must travel on our roads to get to their destinations. A case could be made for further road grants so that roads in the county might be brought up to a good standard.

There is also the serious problem of the second by-pass bridge over the Shannon at Athlone. This must be foremost in the mind of every person driving to Dublin from the west. The project has been held up by planners for a long time. The Department have been tossing this problem back to the local authority for years asking that further tests and borings be made. The Minister's predecessor referred the problem back to the local authority three or four times in recent years and the result is that we still have congestion. Motorists can be held up for one hour trying to get through Athlone. I would ask the Minister and his officials to ensure that no obstacle will be placed in the way of constructing the by-pass bridge and road over the Shannon at Athlone.

We have a serious pollution problem. In a way it is a problem that is associated with progress. Unfortunately Westmeath seems to have suffered more than other areas in recent years because of pollution. I think the title "Department of the Environment" is most appropriate. When somebody complimented the Minister on changing the name of the Department I am sure they were thinking specifically of the problem of pollution. This problem will have to be tackled seriously if we want to encourage the growth of the tourist industry. Tourists want to fish in our lakes, to enjoy the recreational facilities available and to enjoy the scenery. They should not be faced with the prospect of a polluted lake where there is no fishlife. The efforts being made to control or prevent pollution should be encouraged and in this connection the Minister and the Government should be complimented on what they have done.

In Westmeath we have had serious pollution problems. Lough Sheelin was affected. This was most important because it is a valuable tourist attraction and it earned considerable revenue. Then there was pollution in Lough Ennel, a lake close to where I live. I am glad to report that that pollution problem seems to have been resolved. The approval recently of a tertiary treatment plant by the Minister in respect of Lough Ennel will go a long way towards alleviating any pollution in the area.

In addition, there is also the problem of air and other types of pollution which are caused by our changing society. Research must be continued to ensure that industries will not cause pollution. I am pleased that the IIRS and An Foras Forbartha are active in this area. However, I think the problem can be over-exaggerated by certain people. As I said, these people are not in the dole queues, they are not the young people seeking employment. They are people who are retired or else have guaranteed employment themselves. Frequently the newspapers go overboard in highlighting pollution problems that do not exist. We have organisations that are adequate to ensure that safeguards are built in respect of dirty industries so that pollution does not occur. I am satisfied that pollution does not exist here to the extent that is stated in the press and by local pressure groups.

Local authorities are playing an important role in the planning and development of the country. Members of local authorities have given valuable service during the years. They are elected by the people. I should like to see legislation introduced to strengthen the powers of local authorities, thus allowing them to play a greater role in the development and planning of their areas. Recently members of local authorities expressed fears that their functions were being diminished by the abolition of rates and by the payment of road grants at State level. The role of the local authorities continues to expand. When the health boards were established many people thought the local authorities would have less to do; but having regard to the development that has taken place throughout the country and the amount of roadworks being carried out and remaining to be done, the local authorities still have an important role to play.

I should like to see legislation introduced so that the members would receive some form of compensation for their work. They are the only unpaid servants in our society. They give their time, advice and help and they get nothing except travelling and subsistence allowances. I understand in the urban areas they get nothing at all. Their contribution to the economic growth of the country is not fully appreciated or understood.

I should like to see something done to compensate them for what they have been doing for the community and the country over the years. I should like to see their status strengthened so as to assure continuation of local democracy. People prize nothing more than having local councillors available at all times to assist in various problems. Every new scheme brings additional work for local authorities and their members. There is greater need for co-operation between county managers and elected members. Unfortunately, some officials like to play down the role of elected members, but I feel sure that the Minister, who is fully aware of the value of local authorities, will want to ensure that the local councillor is appreciated.

Local authorities have enormous power, and this must be continued. They should be encouraged to secure more and more development in rural areas and ensure that legislation and plans are available so that more people may avail of a healthy environment in rural areas. It is not sufficient to have the farmers in rural Ireland. People should be encouraged to provide houses for themselves in rural areas and enjoy the better quality of life and the healthier conditions than those that exist in built-up areas. That is why I should like planning regulations eased, to enable this type of development to proceed in rural areas. At present planning regulations seem to prevent it but I want it encouraged, and all local authorities should be advised to go easy on such development so as to ensure that it can proceed. If there is more development in rural areas this will relieve the burden in urban areas, relieve traffic congestion and ensure that more services can be provided. It will ensure that more rural shops will survive. It is tragic to see a village decay and go off the map, a tragedy when the local postoffice, school and church disappear, because a community dies when those things go. Therefore, the work and responsibility of local authorities is very important in this field.

The Department now carries the cost of financing local authorities where the rating method operated in the past. I understand it will cost £80 million approximately this year to replace rates. That benefits the community in general. The abolition of rates on private houses and farm buildings was not mentioned here today but it is very important that people generally can enjoy the benefit of this scheme while the Department of the Environment recoup the local authorities to a very great extent. In fact, in some cases I think local authorities this year will get finance 100 per cent greater than under the old rating system.

Now that rates on private houses are abolished, the greatest contributors to the rating system will be the farmers. In view of this, they will expect and demand greater services from local authorities. They are entitled to this, and a great deal of attention must be focused on that area from now on. They will require field drainage, land drainage, making of roadways and so on.

I was pleased that the present Minister decided to increase the contribution under the Local Improvement Scheme. Some counties availed of that scheme to a very great extent while others did not. Unfortunately, my own county did not avail of it when it was introduced, with the result that some years ago money was returned to the Department unexpended. I think the scheme will be availed of much more in future because people in rural areas realise that they are contributing through the rates and will expect greater benefits. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that local authorities make full use of that scheme, which is a worthwhile one designed to benefit those in rural areas and assist farmers to improve their land in areas not covered by land projects schemes or by the Board of Works schemes. Groups of farmers may now come together, avail of the Local Improvement Scheme and have worthwhile development carried out benefiting themselves and further increasing farm production.

In referring to SDA loans earlier I neglected to mention the Low Rise Mortgage Scheme introduced by the Minister's predecessor. This is a useful scheme that should be utilised more freely. I appeal to the present Minister to try to liberalise the regulations governing qualification of applicants under that scheme. If the scheme is fully availed of it will benefit the local authority and the Department in the long run. People on the housing waiting list who see no hope of being rehoused would avail of the Low Rise Mortgage Scheme if some of the red tape could be discarded, making it easier for them to qualify. I have no costings, but I understand that if some minor adjustments were made and more people were allowed to qualify it would benefit both the Department and the local authorities.

I would make a special appeal to the Minister to examine that scheme with his officials and see if changes can be made so that more people will benefit from the scheme. It is only now that it is being understood, and for that reason we can expect a noted increase in inquiries with regard to the possibility of securing loans under the low-rise mortgage scheme. People take pride in owning their own homes, and the more private development we have the better it is for the community in general.

I appeal to the Minister to ensure that no effort is spared in continuing on the road towards development. If we are to have the type of economic development we want we must give our full support to the best efforts of the Minister, who is endeavouring to ensure that everything possible is done with regard to job creation, the construction of highways and the improvement of the environment in general.

Since the commencement of this Dáil a regrettable feature of our debates is that a number of Deputies read their statements to the House. In the past that facility was confined to Ministers. This is a relatively new Dáil but this new feature takes away from the advantages of discussion and much of the thrust of debate.

The Chair has already ruled on this matter. A Deputy may use fairly copious notes.

If the Deputy is refering ing to me, I had not any notes.

Deputy Keegan was not referred to and the Chair has dealt fully with this.

It was not allowed in the past and I was seeking information as to whether procedure had been changed.

There has not been any change in the rule.

Deputies were required to give the titles of any documents from which they quoted. The new feature is regrettable and did not occur in any former Dáil.

When the Minister introduced the Estimate I wished him well in his Department. He had as much understanding of local government matters as any other member of his party. The major question concerning the Department of the Environment is the abolition of rates, and this was referred to in the Minister's speech. The amount involved is £80.75 million. Were it not for the defeat of Fianna Fáil in 1973 and the election of the National Coalition, there would not be any question of the abolition of rates. This matter would not have arisen, nor would the abolition of motor tax. That is a statement of fact.

No, it is not.

Those of us who had been asking for relatively small concessions were told that money was not available to make these concessions. We must assume that the moneys promised by Fianna Fáil in their manifesto were provided for the sole purpose of securing office again and getting a sufficient number of the electorate to change from support of the Coalition. That is quite factual. I mentioned this recently during a debate, and I know that the Coalition Government were also addressing themselves to this question.

It is said that we all benefit from the abolition of rates, or we think we do. The bigger the house we own, the more we benefit. The owner of a house with a valuation of around £100 benefits very much indeed, taking into account an average rate this year of £11 or £12 in the £. There was not any great demand from such people that they should be excluded from the obligation to pay rates. People have been paying rates since the foundation of the State. It was felt that rates were necessary to provide services, to improve roads, to help in the provision of houses and to help needy sections of the population. In recent years, and particularly at the instance of the former Minister, Deputy Tully, there was a provision in the Estimates to meet the demands of necessitous people, whereby the State and the local authorities combined to provide a fund in order to waive the rates of people deemed to be necessitous. What could be done with even a fraction of this money were it now available?

A family may calculate that since they do not pay rates this year and pay only a nominal £5 in car tax, if their car is less than 16 h.p., they have saved a certain amount of money. During my period in this House I never heard any Deputy claiming that car tax should be abolished. It is evident there was not a demand for it. I have not heard of any local authorities passing resolutions to that effect. This was one of the main ploys of Fianna Fáil in winning over the support of the electorate, particularly of young people who own cars.

The abolition of rates and car tax would be desirable and welcome were it not for the fact that according to the Minister's budget statement we must borrow the money. We were told in that statement that it is essential to get £821 million by way of borrowing for the current year and of the £821 million we secure—I understand that is the maximum we can borrow— £416 million will be current expenditure and £405 million supposedly for capital works. It is evident from that that we do not have this money. How will we continue? Some Members here—I presume they are economists and so on—should tell us. It would be interesting to hear them explain how we will continue. We will borrow £416 million and I assume the interest rates will be 7, 8 or 9 per cent net. Will the outlook be any brighter next year?

The Deputy is quite in order in dealing with car tax and rates and their abolition but he is not in order in going into the budget, loans and so on. That would be for the debate on the budget.

But where will the money come from? Can we afford to continue this kind of system in the future? Is there some truth in the rumour that the Government are proposing to put a higher duty on new cars to help to recover what was lost by the abolition of road tax? Rates and car tax have been abolished and we have to borrow to offset their abolition. The Minister should explain where the money will come from.

Previous speakers have referred to the fact that some of the burden has been transferred to the farming community. In the case of farmers with valuations in excess of £75 there will be no relief this year and I understand next year there will be no relief for farmers with £60 valuations. This is the policy of the party which, in Opposition, advocated the derating of agricultural land. Of course that was done to secure a few votes here, there and everywhere, at marts and fairs, and so on. It was implied that Fianna Fáil were the party which would derate agricultural land. I think they said land had been derated in Northern Ireland and why should we not do that here.

Who said that?

Local cumainn here and there. I am sure the Minister has a good idea how that sort of thing happens. In any case some of the burden has been, as I said, transferred to the farming community and another part of the burden has been transferred to the self-employed. If you are a small builder or a small industrialist the tax man is on your doorstep much more frequently than he used to be. Of course, the Government must get the money somewhere but there are people now, following the return of Fianna Fáil to power, suffering a great deal of frustration in trying to meet the demands of the tax man. I agree that everyone should contribute his fair share in income tax.

Surely we may not deal with income tax on this Estimate.

The pressure is on because of the abolition of rates. Great credit is due to the former Minister for Local Government, Deputy Tully, for the way in which he put life into the building and construction industry during his term of office. The housing targets set were met during the four years he was in charge of Local Government. Private house building and local authority housing improved very much. In Cork County Council (West) we built more local authority houses in those four years than we built in the previous 16 from 1957 to 1973 when Fianna Fáil were in office. That is an easily verified fact. That gives an idea of the progress we made. The Cork County Council (West) area fares badly. We kept our demands down to the lowest possible level because we believe in being realistic and we appreciate there is a limitation to the amount of money available. I wonder is it a good idea to be too realistic? We got £85,000 to pay for schemes completed. We then demanded a modest £268,000, a deliberately reduced figure we thought would be allowed without question, but the Minister reduced it to £115,000. That may be the pattern all over the country.

The Minister replied to a question tabled by Deputy Tully on 18 April about the amount of money allocated to local authorities. Cork County Council (West) has undoubtedly fared very badly and I would ask the Minister to review our position. We have fared worse than any other area. We have asked the Minister to receive a deputation of the three public representatives at some suitable time to discuss the matter. I have the list here in the reply given on 18 April. Cork County Council (South) is not doing so well either. The allocation there is £125,000. They got £1,120,000 to pay past commitments; we got only £85,000. What sort of figure is this? The amount allocated for housing for North Cork is £100,000, for South Cork it is £125,000 and West Cork it is £150,000. That is £340,000 for the three areas, and £340,000 at £10,000 to £11,000 per house would cater for only 30 houses. I cannot understand how that position obtains in the three Cork areas because that amount is inadequate.

It is evident from the Minister's reply that the demands of county councils and local authorities of all kinds were greatly reduced. Naturally, the Minister will say that we have not got the money. I am relating this matter to the abolition of rates and car tax and the £521 million that was borrowed. How much of the money that was borrowed for current expenditure this year will go towards the provision of houses and sanitary services?

I believe that, in so far as it is possible, people should build their own houses. To entice people to build their own houses the Government should give loans at cheaper rates to those who qualify for local authority housing. That is not happening and the cost of housing is steadily increasing. The new housing grant was referred to in detail this morning by Deputy Barry. He seemed to imply that there was some kind of a test to qualify for a house, that if it was over a certain figure an application would be rejected. He did mention that the grant was only available to first-time house owners. If a person owned a house either here or abroad they would not qualify for the grant. The 27 May is the date set for the commencement of the scheme. It is true to say that the £1,000 housing grant was bandied around before that date. As many people had commenced the erection of houses before that date, is there any hope of substituting 1 January 1977 for May 27 1977? The date for the old scheme varied on the recommendations of local authorities. I appeal to the Minister to consider varying the date. It would be of advantage to many people if the grants were paid retrospectively to 1 January 1977.

Let us consider the case of a man who has a house that cannot be renovated or that is not worth renovating and who needs a new house. Does he get a grant irrespective of his income or valuation? If he is a farmer with a valuation of £60 or less he would have been entitled to a grant of £650 under the old scheme. A farmer with a valuation of less than £25 got £900 under the old scheme. This was at a time when houses were cheaper than they are at present and when income levels were set down for wage earners. Many public representatives are frequently asked about the position of such a man. If I were approached in the morning by someone who told me that his house was very bad and who wanted to build a new house, does the fact that he owns a house exclude him from qualifying under the new scheme? I should like the Minister to clarify that point in his reply as there is still great doubt about it.

I should like to refer to planning, which is closely connected to the subject of house building. Everybody appreciates that we must have planning laws but there is a great deal of controversy about the administration of the planning regulations. The Minister should give clear instructions to the county councils in regard to their powers and functions. When these planning regulations were introduced it was thought that members of county councils would have the right to draw up plans, formulate proposals and have rights of consultation in their implementation. The procedures vary from county to county. In some counties approved plans are handed to the executives for decisions.

There is also the unusual position that an elected member of the council has no right to see a file on an application for which he has made representations. It is my view that planing files should be made available to members of councils and to applicants and objectors who wish to appeal. How can a person make a case for an appeal if he does not see the file and if he gets only a summary of the reasons why his application failed, as happens at present? There may be five or six recommendations on the application up along the line from the junior engineer to the top. In some cases 50 would be in favour of granting the application and 50 against. The applicant does not know.

The job of engineers, planning officers and technical officers is to make a factual assessment of the application. When that job is done, it should be open to inspection by members of local authorities who may be interested in the application, or available to people to help them to submit an appeal if the decision is unfavourable and they so desire it. I understand that is happening quite legally in some counties. The managerial or executive side and the members are in close harmony in the determination of planning applications.

I should like the Minister to comment on the question of planning. Why should an engineer or a planning officer fear the exposure of his report? Is the report not supposed to be factual? If you go to a lower court and you decide to appeal, you have the advantage of hearing the other side of the story, the other person's case. If the file on a planning permission is kept out of your reach, you have no hope of getting the information which is essential and desirable.

In some areas we are going too far with planning restrictions. I come from the Berehaven peninsula which is almost at the extreme end of this country. It is one of three peninsulas in west Cork, Berehaven, Sheep's Head and Mizen Head. The land is not too good in any of the three areas. Its agricultural content is not great. We have a great deal of hilly land, some mountains and indifferent land. It is a marvellous area for tourism. West Cork has scenic advantages and we would like to preserve them, but we are going too far.

Our population declined in the thirties, forties and fifties. People had to leave because they could not eke out a living at home. Employment was scarce and there was a great deal of comment about the declining population, quite justifiably. Now if a farmer gives a plot to his son, as has happened and is happening, he is not supposed to get planning permission to build a house if he wants to stay at home and work in the neighbourhood. There is a difficulty about getting planning permission and, in some cases, permission will only be granted if the site satisfies the planning authority. It costs as much to build a house on a good site as on a bad one. People are asked to build houses in a valley or on a poor quality site. That is unfair. Members of families who get sites on their own farms should be treated more leniently.

I know the peninsula from one end to the other and I cannot see how building additional houses will take away from the scenic advantages of the area. If you travel from Bantry to Kilcrohane and out to Sheep's Head you will see that the valley on the left hand side is so deep that houses would not take away from the view of the sea or the islands. The same could be said about Berehaven peninsula.

Most of these people were poor and many of them are not endowed with too much of the world's goods. A site of no agricultural value will fetch £2,000, £3,000 or £4,000. Look at the advantages of getting approval for that site to a small farmer in the areas I am speaking of, or in Kerry, Galway, Mayo, and so on. Look at the benefit it would be to a man with a young family. It would give him a chance of providing additional education for his family. It would give him a chance to develop his existing holding. In many cases without justification people are deprived of that source of income by a planning board. They are told a piece of land must be preserved so that the Germans, the British, the French and people from Northern Ireland can look at it. They are not allowed to touch it. That is a fair analysis of what is happening.

I said earlier that I agreed with planning. I will not refer to them as pressure groups as Deputy Keegan did, but the people say: "Look at what this means to me and to my family. Tell me how a house takes away from the amenities of the area." There are acres and acres of hills and rocks and an extra 300 or 400 houses scattered around will not make too much of an impact. Our population is going down. Are we to keep it down because people cannot get permission to build a house? This is outrageous. People who were born and bred in the area are being refused permission to erect houses on their own farms.

What about the time taken for determining planning applications? In some cases this takes years, and house prices are increasing steadily. An application is sent to the county council and it is supposed to be determined within two months. In two months you get a letter looking for information, and that keeps it on the open file for months and months. The planning regulations should be reviewed and councils should be told exactly what their powers are and whether it is necessary to increase those powers or to curtail them. They should know what their rights are. At present it seems that their role could be compared to that of the messenger boy, to do what they are told. Any junior clerk can read the files. As far as confidentiality is concerned, councils have not that type of integrity. It is a scandalous reflection on people elected to county and borough councils in the same way as Members are elected to this Dáil.

The appeals position is an impossible one. The files are kept away from the appellants. They do not know what is set down in the file. As Chairman of Cork County Council for some years I had an opportunity of reading the planning files and I could see what an advantage it would be for people submitting appeals to have that facility.

I have never been in favour of the establishment of boards, so while the Planning Board has been welcomed by almost everybody——

I did not welcome it.

——particularly by the Labour Party, I do not believe in planning boards. I do not believe in the State handing over its powers to any board.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I do not believe in boards no matter where they come from. I would just as soon see the Minister, Deputy Barrett, having the functions of the planning board.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

At least he could be asked a question in the Dáil and we could comment on the merits of a decision. These boards are faceless people.

It was set up in 1976.

I know that, it has not gone away from my memory. We had a discussion here during the week on Bord na Gaeilge. I do not agree with farming out boards. We are supposed to have a central fisheries board in the not too distant future. I oppose that, and I object to the eroding of the authority of the Government of the day and of this House.

Appeals to the planning board take a long time to determine and people suffer a great deal of frustration, almost as much and if not more than when the appeals were determined by the Department. There should be some streamlining of regulations, particularly in simple cases such as the erection of a single dwelling house. Why should it take 12 months to determine the approval or otherwise of that? It is outrageous that so much time should elapse while house prices are jumping up and up. In my own area, between Ballydehob and Skibbereen, a local young fellow, a worker, got a piece of land for the building of a house. I cannot see for the life of me why there should be any objection, good, bad or indifferent, to granting him planning permission at county council level, but for some peculiar reason he was refused.

This piece of land is two miles from the sea. He had to appeal and the appeal came up to the board last May. This is April and the matter has not been determined yet. It is as simple a question as could be. In the mean time the young man had a contract with a local contractor to build a house for him at a low cost. The price of the house has now increased by something at least equivalent to the grant, if he qualifies for it, of £1,000, while he is waiting on the deliberations first of all of the county council and now of the board. I do not see why there should be such a delay when house prices are increasing. One can understand the frustration of such a young man who hopes to marry as soon as the house is ready.

This is one case. How many more such cases would you find if you travelled around the country, in Donegal, Mayo, Galway and so forth? These people are being treated with contempt. Their applications have been put into some corner on some shelf and left there. I do not want the board to get away with merely treating these applications. At least let them write and tell people the causes of the delays. I appreciate that the board may have a large number of appeals to deal with, I do not know how many, but I see no justification for the delay in determining the appeals. I hope the Minister will inquire into this.

I do not want to delay the House, but I would like to refer to the availability of loans. Taking into account the present value of money and that sometimes wives are working as well as their husbands, the qualifying rate of £3,500 for a local authority loan— and in the case of a couple who are both working this refers to their combined income—is rather low and it should be looked at with a view to increasing it.

Regarding water supply and sewage the demands on local authorities for money are very high, but every effort should be made to get water and sewage schemes under way without delay. Every help should be given to the rural water supply group schemes. That system had almost disappeared at the time Deputy Tully assumed office. In many instances money had been refunded to groups who had already paid but Deputy Tully as Minister made great strides in the area of group water schemes and I trust that this Minister will follow that example.

The question of roads is a major one for the Department of the Environment. The amount allocated for road works this year is 11 per cent greater than the amount allocated last year. Having regard to inflation it is unlikely that this amount will allow any extra work to be done. In the first instance every effort should be made in regard to major roads because these have to carry the heaviest traffic. While the Cork-Dublin road is reasonably good there are some counties in which it is not what it should be. I refer particularly to County Kildare and to that stretch of roadway from Kildare to Newbridge. This is the road across the Curragh and I can see no reason, having regard to the scope for development there, for this road not being developed and if necessary a dual carriageway built. Any Minister must examine the road question on the basis of importance. Many of our roads are first class but there are many that need attention. Some county councils seem to be more capable than others so far as this question is concerned, particularly in regard to smooth surfaces. The major roads linking Dublin with Cork or with Donegal or Galway should be as good as possible having regard especially to the fact that a third of our population reside in Dublin.

Those of us who represent constituencies such as South-West Cork or Donegal find that in regard to roads the main representations made to us concern the improvement of smaller roads. We do not have many inquiries about the major roads, Those smaller roads are usually improved under the Local Improvement Scheme. The figure for that scheme this year is £1.75 million and the Minister has told us that he will be bringing in an environmental improvement scheme that will cost £4 million. As I said during the course of the debate on the Estimate for the Office of Public Works—this is perhaps more relevant to the Department of the Environment than to any other—we are handing out money for nothing instead of providing work for the people concerned by way of road improvements, drainage and so on. Most of these people would prefer to be working. The money that is paid to them while they are unemployed would go a long way towards financing improvement schemes of the type I have mentioned, schemes that would be of much benefit to the country and particularly to people in remote areas. I have been advocating such a policy since I became a Member of this House. There is no justification for a situation in which a casual worker with a local authority who is earning £45 per week is laid off and thereby forced to go to the labour exchange as a result of which he will be paid as much money as if he were working but for doing nothing. There is no sense in that. Surely it would be possible to formulate a programme whereby there would be co-operation between the Departments concerned to keep that man at work. We could rechannel much of the money that is paid out by way of social welfare allowances and utilise it in work on various schemes such as the local employment scheme and environmental improvement scheme works.

I appeal to the Minister to have a word with the Minister for Health and Social Welfare and also with the man who is supposed to be the kingpin of all our economic planning with a view to ascertaining what arrangement could be made to implement schemes that are necessary and useful and which could be carried out with little or no additional cost to the Exchequer. This could be done by utilising the subvention from the Department of Social Welfare.

It is degrading for a man who is anxious to work to have to sign on at an employment exchange or at a Garda station. By implementing the kind of schemes I have in mind the Minister would be taking some of the people from the Live Register and would be going some way towards fulfilling the promise of 30,000 extra jobs that we have been hearing so much about and which are in addition to replacements. So far there is not much sign of action in that area.

I should like to know what criteria is laid down by the EEC regarding funds for local improvement works such as water and sewerage schemes. I would like to know the amount of money made available to the Department of the Environment last year and during the current year for development works and what are the future prospects. The EEC was supposed to act as a fairy godfather. Once we became a member everything was supposed to be rosy in the garden. We find that is not the case. The amount allocated for improvement works is very small taking into account all the demands made by community councils and development associations. It is a good thing to see towns and villages throughout the country trying to develop their areas. It would be a great advantage to those people if they got good amenity grants. It would, as I said earlier, relieve the unemployment position.

The provision of swimming pools is mentioned in the Minister's statement.

I am afraid the Deputy is on overtime. He is three or four minutes over the hour.

I would like to conclude by hoping that when the Minister comes in here with his Estimate next year he will have additional funds available or that he will present a Supplementary Estimate this year for some of the items I mentioned today.

This is my first opportunity to wish the Minister well in his portfolio. He is a practical man, a man of common sense, the type of qualities which are needed in this portfolio. When one reads the Minister's speech one is struck not only by the magnitude of the projected expenditure for 1978 of £206 million but also by the variety and the complexity of the services for which the Minister carries the ultimate responsibility. For some years the capacity of local authorities to discharge their functions adequately has been frustrated by the lack of money. It has long been acknowledged that the rates, about which there was a lot of comment this morning, which provided a considerable part of the revenue of local authorities, was not an adequate source of income. Apart from that rates as a form of taxation suffered from the fundamental defect that it did not have regard to the ability of ratepayers to pay the amount levied on them. The rates waiver scheme and the right to pay rates by instalments, although helpful, did nothing to deal with the basic flaw to which I referred.

I welcome the abolition of rates on domestic and other property. The effect of that decision will be to hive off to the taxpayer, whose liability will be related to his income, the responsibility for moneys hitherto collected from people who in some instances were not in a position to pay the amounts demanded.

A lot has been said today about housing and the new grant and loan and also the increased reconstruction grant. It is the policy of Fianna Fáil to encourage people to erect their own dwellings. It behoves them to give young people the incentive to do that. The right type of incentive has been given by the introduction of the new £7,000 loan and the £1,000 grant. The more people we can encourage to erect their own homes the more local authority houses will be available for those in the lower income group, the people who would not be able to avail of the facilities of the £7,000 loan because of their inability to repay it.

Deputy Murphy spoke a lot of sense with regard to the planning authorities throughout the country. It is an interesting coincidence that when I spoke on the budget Deputy Willie O'Brien came after me and he did not agree with me. He probably will not agree with me today either. Planning authorities often apply the letter of the law too much in regard to planning applications. Deputy Murphy spoke about the young man in Cork who looked for planning permission to erect a house because he wished to get married. We must not be too bureaucratic in a situation like this. Planning officers in the various planning offices throughout the country are inhibiting. It is a pity that when a person wants to erect his home, not just somebody who wants to erect a scheme of houses and make a lot of money out of it, and avail of the facilities which the Government are providing in a loan and a grant, he comes across this inhibiting situation in his local planning office.

I cannot understand some of the problems which exist in Deputy Murphy's county council. I have been on the Meath County Council since 1974 and I have access to any file I wish in the planning office. As far as I am aware any member of the public can go into a planning office and ask to see a file which might be relevant to him. Since I was elected to Meath County Council I have never been refused permission to look through a file in the planning office. The situation may vary in different counties and it is obvious that it is different in Deputy Murphy's constituency.

I should now like to deal with An Bord Pleanála. I tend to be sceptical about boards and I was wary about this board when it was established. The board which the Minister for the Gaeltacht is seeking to establish may be a healthy thing in relation to that ministry, but even though there is merit in a board such as An Bord Pleanála I am sceptical of it. It is possible that a Minister for the Environment might not welcome the tremendous responsibility of having to make decisions on planning appeals, but it is not correct that such appeals should be dealt with by a board that people do not have access to. While I cannot criticise the performance of this board to date it appears that it is endorsing the decisions of local authorities in refusing planning permission. During the course of my contribution on the budget debate I suggested that if the Government found that this board was in any way inhibiting their policy they should consider its abolition. I reiterate that suggestion now.

Many Members have referred to the condition of public roads. There is no doubt that all our county roads are carrying a lot more traffic than they were built for. They are not in a healthy state and have not been so for many years. In Meath we were proud for many years of the fact that we had the best roads in the country, but in recent years, in common with counties like Kildare, because of the extra volume of traffic they are carrying they have deteriorated. Those roads carry all the heavy traffic from the north and the west destined for the city, traffic they were never intended for. I agree with the suggestion made by Deputy Keegan this morning that counties adjoining Dublin should be given special consideration by the Minister in relation to the allocation of money for road improvements. I accept that it is the intention of the Minister to provide more than £37 million for road works in the current financial year and I should like to state that in referring to the condition of our roads it is not my intention to reflect on our policy makers.

Until comparatively recently the ownership of a motor car was the privilege of a minority, but such ownership is now the expectation of the majority, and long may that be so. A proper road system is essential and economically desirable. Such a system would have great advantages. It would eliminate delay, thus ensuring a saving in the consumption of petrol and oil, reducing the wear and tear on vehicles, expenditure on repairs, and make for safety and the saving of lives. It would avoid the frustration and pollution caused by traffic jams. The provision of such a road system will call for considerable expertise and expenditure of vast sums of money. It is my belief that the Minister will have to embark on a crash programme to rectify the situation in relation to our roads.

In relation to planning for the future it is essential that Departments, such as the Department of the Environment, are armed with vital statistics. Such statistics can be gained from the population census, and for that reason it is regrettable that the previous Government decided not to proceed with the census. We must now wait until 1980 to get such vital information so that we can plan ahead, even as far as the year 2000. In the course of my trips to Europe I learned to appreciate how lucky we are to be living on an island with so many centres of the population within close proximity to the seaside. I am fortunate in that I live within 20 miles of a beach. The people of Meath are fortunate in that they have seven miles of coastline but we all envy those who live in counties like Donegal, Kerry, Cork, Wexford and Clare which have such excellent beaches. Three miles of the Meath coastline is not accessible because of Gormanston Camp and the remaining area is attracting many people from north County Dublin who formerly made the journey to the beaches on the south side.

All local authorities should try to preserve our beaches from coast erosion and from all types of litter. We are fortunate in being a small island with access to beaches. The major continental countries have no access to beaches. Litter is a worldwide problem but we seem to be inept in tackling it. In industrial towns, such as Navan, where I live, it is hard to control the disposal of litter. People are somewhat careless in relation to the disposal of litter no matter how many litter bins are provided. It should be emphasised in schools and on television that it is important to act responsibly in relation to the disposal of litter. On the Continent the people are very litter conscious. Even in London, which has huge population, the people are more meticulous than we are in relation to the disposal of litter. The collection of litter in most areas has helped to arrest the problem to some extent.

This service is a draw on the Exchequer, but is well worth while. Many people do not appreciate the service. In some rural areas where litter cannot be collected people seem to dispose of litter at the nearest crossroads. There is nothing so distasteful, when driving through the country than to see litter all over the place at crossroads. We depend very much on the tourist industry and tourists are very particular about hygiene. The Minister should encourage people to ensure that reasonable standards are maintained.

The Minister referred to the itinerant problem. Those of us who are members of local authorities are aware of the problems of housing itinerants. As Christians it is our duty to make every effort to integrate these people into the community. There are some avenues which have not yet been traversed in the solving of the itinerant housing problem. There is a scheme in the Department of the Environment whereby the Department will subsidise any local authority to house an itinerant family, but this scheme is not being properly used. Many religious communities have land which could be used for this purpose. Near most religious communities there are schools and shopping facilities. These religious communities in small parishes could integrate a few intinerant families so that the children of itinerants would be educated and would associate with the other children. There is also a problem in relation to the housing of roadside traders who are not really itinerants. Most of these people are very well off and, with the aid of the £1,000 grant and the local authority loans, they would be able to purchase their own houses and should be encouraged to do so.

Local authorities have been mentioned frequently this morning. I speak not alone as a member of Meath County Council but as a member of the General Council of County Councils. The Minister will be our guest at the end of the month at our annual conference in Wexford. At local democracy level one finds much wisdom in the contributions of speakers. Motions are frequently passed which reflect the Government opinion of the day. Some excellent ideas have been put forward at the level of General Council of County Council meetings. Any Minister for the Environment should have, shall I say, a good Acker Bilk ear for the ideas emanating from local authorities at these annual conferences.

The danger has been mentioned here that because the State will be providing most of the funds to be expended by local authorities the Minister will be over-involved in local affairs and that, as a consequence, local democracy will suffer. I freely acknowledge the danger of such a situation. The principle that he who pays the piper shall call the tune applies generally. The Minister will have to exercise great vigilance in this regard. Over a century ago the philosopher, John Stewart Mill, when discussing the relationship between central and local governments, declared that, speaking generally, no persons were better equipped to discharge any function than those directly affected by it. I believe Mill was correct and that his views accurately reflect the position today. I am heartened to hear that the Minister is conscious of the need to preserve the independence of county councils and other local authorities. If the services now provided at local level were to be administered from the centre the inevitable result would be uniformity of service and inflexibility where regard could not be had to the varying demands and needs of different parts of the country.

I wish the Minister well. He has a most important portfolio and a hefty task. The question was posed: was it wise to have changed the name of the Department to the Department of the Environment? In general I think it was. It embraces local government up and down the country, the concept of local government as we have known it. I assure the Minister, as a member of a local authority and of this Dáil, of my full co-operation. I shall endeavour to ensure, whenever I can, that the facilities he is supplying will be availed of.

Much criticism has been levelled at the £1,000 grant. If Members of the House who criticised it had read its intent they would have found that it was clearly emphasised that the grant would be paid to people when they were living in their dwellings. Many questions have been asked about the number of grants already paid out. Since the scheme has been in operation only since 26 May last how in heaven's name could a tremendous amount of grants have been paid out? How many houses could have been built since that date? Those who have criticised that grant—if they repeat their question to the Minister in 12 months' or two years' time— will find that they will be given a very different answer.

I wish this most competent, practical and common-sense Minister the height of success in his portfolio.

This Estimate— what used to be that of the Department of Local Government—always aroused a certain amount of interest in the House. I believe that was so because of its closeness to the community and, above all, to the many Deputies of this House. We are all aware that 90 per cent of the Deputies here are deeply concerned with the environment, by virtue of their membership also of county councils, corporations and urban councils.

One must refer to the change in title of the Department. It is a regrettable fact that the title "Local Government" has disappeared. There was a Department of State that always dealt with local government. Since the first Dáil Local Government had a life of its own. On the foundation of the State it was associated with the Department of Health in an informal way but since 1947 has operated on its own. For that reason many people are prompted to pose the question: why a change of name at this stage? There must be some significance in the change of name and in the fact that in a brief of 58 pages the Minister did not refer to such change until the very late stages and then a mere reference only.

I sincerely hope that there is no move afoot to kill local government in the sense in which we knew it and that it will not be replaced by a Department controlled from the centre. I believe there is simple justification for such apprehension. In letters recently from the Department to local authorities we have felt that a certain effort is being made to erode the responsibility of the public representative. Local government should be something more than a mere provision of services. It is part of a democracy which is closest to the grass roots. There is not a public representative who is not aware of the close ties of local government with the ordinary man and woman of the country. In the White Paper on local government reorganisation in 1971 it was clearly pointed out that local government organisations exist for a practical reason as well as a democratic one and that therefore they should be in a special position.

Many people have pointed to the dangers attached to inhibiting local representatives. As public representatives we have an obligation to protect the rights of local representatives who have given so much service throughout the years. Now they have received a circular from the Department outlining their functions in regard to the striking of a rate. During the years we in local councils felt we had some power in the matter of providing services for our community but because of this circular we might as well stay at home. It ordains that in striking a rate we must not exceed the previous year's rate by more than 11 per cent. I was intrigued when Deputy Keegan spoke about the fact that farmers are now making the greatest single contribution to the rates and that they therefore are entitled to expect more and better local services. How can local representatives make provision for such services when their hands are tied? In this matter, dedicated representatives, county managers and county engineers cannot make any new provision for extra services because of the impact of this circular.

Local Government has been the part of administration most acceptable to the average citizen. Indeed it is right to say that it has been a school of citizenship. Most Deputies and Senators served their time in the best training schools, urban district councils, county councils and corporations. Now their powers are being clipped by more centralisation and this circular represents further erosion of the powers local representatives had. Local government fulfils a higher function than that of providing roads, sewerage and water.

One of the great virtues of local government has been the variation from area to area. Different local authorities had different problems and different methods of dealing with them, but today there is no longer the council exchequer, the kitty as we call it locally, with which to deal with the many problems such as road and land deterioration because of storms or heavy rains. We will not be able to deal with such emergencies in future to the satisfaction of dedicated local representatives. I had been looking forward to the day when the Department of the Environment would institute a special fund to deal with roads in rural Ireland. With the exception of city Deputies, everyone in the House is familiar with the long lonely roads leading to farmhouses, and people living in such isolated areas have begun to expect the minimum services being enjoyed by urban dwellers.

I hope that the Minister will, if at all possible—I am sure he will— arrange for a special fund for the adoption of roads by county councils so that farmers and others in isolated areas will obtain some of the many concessions enjoyed by urban dwellers. If a county council must work within a straitjacket local government as we know it will become a farce. It may be said that those who pay the piper call the tune but I do not think it is right that the people who pay the piper 66 per cent should call the tune 100 per cent. At least local authorities should have much more say than they have. This applies to roads. We get a block grant but we are told what to do with that money.

You are not.

I am sorry if I am wrong but when we get the grants the services are marked out for us. If that is not telling you what to do, I do not know what it is. I have no intention of quarrelling with the Minister's opinion but Limerick County Council—and I trust there is a unified policy throughout the country—have not the right to do what they like with the money. If I am wrong, the Minister will have an opportunity of correcting me. There was always the weakness of centralisation in the Department but now more than ever we must be on the lookout because if power moves from Dublin to Brussels it becomes more important that a greater amount of power should be brought to the local scene. It is right that our power should be protected because if we lose local power, local government as we know it will be gone. Of that I am certain, but I hope it does not happen.

One wonders what is the real significance of the new title of the Department other than a slavish imitation of what happened across the Irish Sea where there is nothing in common with us. The British system of local government has not worked. It was made impossible for it to work because of the larger authority. That is happening to us and I fear it may continue. Let us hope that we shall not follow the example of countries that have nothing in common with us.

Apart from the financial control arising as a result of the abolition of rates, housing grants have become a problem. There was much said about these grants here today and I shall not deal with the £1,000 grant to any great extent because I think the Minister is overloaded with queries and I am sure that when he is replying I shall be in the same position as any other Deputy regarding information on that point. But I want to mention centralisation. The vast majority of rural public representatives—I am not talking politics but I speak as a public representative—feared what might happen in this respect. From time to time we raised the matter with both Governments but I think the position has worsened. In my county up to a fortnight ago it was not possible to get a new house form in the council office. In fairness, somebody told me that in the past fortnight 40 or 50 of those forms went to Limerick. We used to pay reconstruction grants under the old scheme and I cannot see why, even with the £1,000 grant, 50 per cent of it could not be paid by the Department and the other 50 per cent by the county council. Why not decentralise? Why are more jobs being made available in the city here than in rural Ireland?

When somebody is about to build a house the first place he will make inquiries will be in the local county council or corporation office. Recently, we could not get a form. The public representative who is asked to make inquiries or query the delay in regard to the £1,000 grant is told that he must contact the Department. There is great waste of time involved and the local representative is completely out of the picture. These people have very little contact with the Department unless they are Deputies. I cannot see why 50 per cent of that grant could not be paid through the local authorities.

The same applies to reconstruction which is something at least with which people in the local authority should in some way be associated as regards grants. Perhaps there are good arguments in favour of paying directly through the Department but I shall anxiously await the Minister's reply because to me it does not make sense. In the case of group schemes the same thing applies. In passing, I am delighted that the grant for these schemes is increased because those associated with group schemes deserve the greatest credit, because they are prepared to put that money into schemes which would have to be financed in the ordinary course by local authorities. These people have given wonderful service and I am delighted that the Department have acknowledged that fact and increased the grant. It was badly needed.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider the involvement of local authorities in some small way in dealing with reconstruction grants and new house grants. After all, one has to go for planning permission to one's own local authority. It is difficult to explain to people that they must now send their forms to Dublin. It is felt by the managers and staff of local authorities, as well as by most local councillors, that their offices are being downgraded and that as time goes on fewer people will be employed. In spite of the fact that the amount of work involved would be light and would require the employment of a small number of extra personnel, these should be employed in urban areas throughout the country.

The present system is a matter of annoyance for the Dáil Deputy because much of his time is wasted in seeking grants when other work could be done. In spite of the dedication of the public official, he has not the same commitment to the ordinary people. He seldom meets the people in the country, whereas the local official would be in closer touch with them.

The amount of this Estimate is colossal. Much has been said about housing in the past. Looking back over the figures I wonder why we did not avail of cheaper money in the past. Could many of the people who waited for houses until the seventies have been housed in the mid-sixties? Deputy Keegan, who is not now present, referred to the progress in housing. I was prompted to go back over the figures and I found that during the 16 years of the Fianna Fáil Administration prior to 1973 the average number of new houses per year was roughly 10,400. At that time money could have been borrowed at a much cheaper rate. All countries in Europe were doing well and we were told that it was a boom period. If that was a boom period, how would one describe the 1973-77 period when 25,000 houses were built per year? I am not using these figures for political purposes, but this is the reason why so much money is provided in this Estimate.

I sincerely hope that housing progress will continue and that there will not be a deterioration in the position. It was often said to me when I referred to the amount of money spent on housing between 1973 and 1977 that we did not take into consideration the value of the money and the rate of inflation. Inflation cannot change the fact that during that period 25,000 houses per year were built. Comparing that with the average of 10,400 houses during the previous 16 years, I feel that those on the other side of the House are responsible for this huge Estimate. This is conscience money for the people who were denied houses in the mid-sixties. When the Government changed we saw what happened. This change roused the present Administration from their slumber and made them realise what was happening. During that period comparable figures in other areas, including London, fell by 33 per cent. That is an indication of the service rendered here at that time. It is right to make comparisons and I intend to continue on this line.

Debate adjourned.
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