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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 May 1978

Vol. 306 No. 10

Private Members' Business. Youth Policy: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government either to immediately publish its own comprehensive Youth Policy or to adopt the Policy for Youth and Sport published by the then Government in May 1977, and to ensure that aid to voluntary youth organisations is such that their programmes can be maintained and expanded.

I do not want this construed as a personal attack on the Minister for whom I have the highest regard, but I have my reasons for putting down this motion at this time. It arises from the growing discontent, frustration and disenchantment of many interested people, many interested voluntary organisations, throughout the country in regard to what they see as the lack of progressive thought, effective motivation and real leadership by the Department concerned with youth affairs and sport.

This country with a unique demographic structure within Europe, coupled with various other circumstances, has approximately 48 per cent of its population under 25 years of age, as the Minister knows. This figure will continue to rise until well into the 1980s thereby guaranteeing to cause increasing social difficulties at a later date if present attitudes and approaches are maintained. Necessary work in the youth area is being seriously handicapped by the lack of a clear Government statement of intent in relation to that area.

The basis of my argument is both political and social, the emphasis being on the latter. Youth needs a challenge for its fullest expression in any walk of life. Youth is now willing to accept the immense challenge of participating in the formation of a newer and better society for us all, but it needs a certain assistance from Government level, not the least of which is a comprehensive youth policy. I believe, regardless of an increasingly materialistic consumer society, that in Ireland we still have the ability and the capacity to find for ourselves one of the best standards of living and life of the highest quality in the best sense of that word.

This potential can be greatly assisted by harnessing the undoubted talents and abilities, the energies and idealism of youth into a path of progress that will be beneficial to the whole community. There is in a vast majority of our young people an inherent driving force for good which if allowed to go uptapped is a serious reflection of an inadequacy in our social and political system at the moment. This could cause social problems of an unknown magnitude inside a few years.

It is a little beyond comprehension that a Government who when in Opposition wooed the youth of the country, a Government which were returned to office with a massive majority, capable of introducing any legislation they so desire, which appointed a Minister of State with direct responsibility for youth affairs, have yet failed to introduce a youth policy and have equally failed to be realistic in their attitude and their consequent actions towards voluntary organisations and the aid granted to them.

I concede, from a political point of view, that of the number of young people who voted in the last election in June 1977, a majority voted for the present Government basically because of the commitments given to them, which they believed were given to them in all good faith prior to that time. There were the obvious signs of a vibrant age in tee-shirts and records. They had solid and definite commitments given in writing to assist the area of youth and sport. There was a commitment to create 5,000 jobs for young people, which has since not materialised and on which I will speak later. They were to create opportunities.

The Employment Action Team, whose initials in reverse spell trial and error, seemingly have had a lot of trial and error. No concrete jobs have evolved from that team. There have been many opportunities but, all in all, there has been pathetic failure to date. I note that the Minister is now reviewing the activities of the Employment Action Team. A review of what they have done to date is inconsequential. There was a commitment of £20 million to youth and sport, which evaporated to approximately £5 million after the budget. It is not realistic to suggest that that has been absorbed into the other job creation areas, such as health, housing and social welfare in which we understand there are to be cuts in the near future. There was also the commitment to the production of a national youth policy, which has not materialised either.

When the Coalition Government took office in 1973 they realised that the aim of youth work should be the provision of facilities and activities to enable young people to develop and to appreciate the advantages of an ordered society and to contribute to that society. A Parliamentary Secretary was appointed who set up an advisory panel, consisting of educationalists, sociologists, administrators and experts to assist in drawing up a comprehensive policy document for this area. That was complicated work because it had to be flexible and had to take into account the ever-changing needs of young people.

Eventually a document was produced on 14 May 1977, strategically before the general election. The present administration, then in Opposition, and I justly criticised the Coalition Government for their failure to introduce and implement a policy for youth prior to the date of the introduction of that document. One must remember that in any Department up to that time there was very scant information, very few details and very little relevant documents in the area of youth. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education at that time, Deputy Bruton, had to do most of the work himself and to assist his backup team in whatever way he could before the document was produced. It can be said he was the first person in the country to give youth the priority it deserves at national level.

The attitude of this Government in the eyes of many of the youth organisations throughout the country appears to be devious and uninformative and totally in line with the view that many young people have of politics and politicians. I have always maintained that it is fair game to criticise when in Opposition but I honestly believe that the primary work of any Minister or Minister of State is concerned with drafting the necessary legislation that will give the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people concerned with his Department. I find it rather childish that many Ministers in the House continuously harp back to what was done in days of yore by Governments in comparing what Coalition Governments did with what Fianna Fáil Governments did. I believe if Ministers take the necessary action there would be no criticism except valid criticism.

The policy for youth and sport, as published at that time—which incidentally is no longer in print— received a general welcome from youth clubs throughout the country as being the basis on which to build and make progress. It was recognised that at least it was a start. The official Fianna Fáil attitude at the time was that it was too little too late.

Reviewing what that document entailed one could say it was a comprehensive statement of Government policy about the connection of the inter-related areas of youth and sport. The document realised that money, of itself, would not solve all our social problems. It emphasised the need to preserve and strengthen the volunteer concept which can play a significant role in the development of our community and in strengthening our social fabric.

It appeared to the body set up that five areas warranted further consideration if the potential of young people was to be fully realised. These were education, recreation, counselling, opportunities for voluntary services and community development. It recognised that education in itself is not the sole prerogative of schools in formal settings, that many people can learn far more in an informal setting in which they can follow their interests and desires to the best of their ability. Furthermore, it recognised that education in all senses, leads one to develop personally, to broaden one's mind, that it enables one to avail of new sources of information, follow new avenues of thought and develop one's characters in a better way. It contended also that informal education out of schools has not got a captive audience and can die out unless it is both stimulating and interesting. That is the essence of the informal educational sphere, that it must be both stimulating and interesting. Otherwise its audience tends to fade away.

In the area of recreation one only has to look around one to see the thousands upon thousands of young children and young men and women to ask oneself. What do they do? What are they going to do in the days, months and years ahead? Are we to turn this country into a nation of television addicts? Are we to develop the lounge bar society—with due respect to Deputy Flynn—and are we to leave our children hanging around corners awaiting school buses in the morning and in the evening on which occasions their energies can often turn to actions which one might say are not normal? Recreation leads to the formation of youth clubs in many areas. It is an interesting thought that throughout the country there are people who give of their time, energy, effort and finance, in a voluntary capacity, to train, educate and lead young people to develop personally, contributing in a better way to the society we all hope we can have. That is a very valuable source that should not be wasted. The recreation area is one that will become of increasing importance in the years ahead. A man 40 years ago worked 100 hours per week, today he works 40; in 15 years' time he may not be working at all or may work only 20 hours. Therefore, the problem of leisure and free time will become of increasing importance. It will be seen that the area of recreation is one that warrants constant monitoring and will be of extreme importance in the years ahead.

The third area designated as being of importance was that of conselling where it was felt that in many informal settings within youth organisations throughout the country young people will be more willing and ready to inform qualified people of their problems. It was felt that people in charge of younger people should have professional training and advice to enable them to cope properly with any young people's problems that might arise within those organisations.

The fourth area designated as being important was that of affording opportunity for voluntary services to young people. That is a point many people miss—that youth work is not concerned solely with the provision of facilities, such as table tennis or games; it is a service that can be given by young people to young people. Indeed, it can be given not solely to young people but to the elderly within our society. There are geriatrics in hospitals who need people. Developing urban areas can often be spawning grounds for delinquency where the problem of loneliness is rife. Indeed it stretches to desolate rural areas where there is a loneliness of a different type. These people all need people. Voluntary service given by young people in this area can be developed and helped by professional people within youth organisations.

The fifth area, leading on from there, was the development of the community which is of extreme importance today because it is difficult for young people to realise the kind of world in which they are growing up, or what lies ahead of them. Voluntary organisations are a way of ensuring that young people retain their values and their respect for people and property, still developing their characters in line with what we would all wish. There has been a tremendous change in Irish society and attitudes in the last decade. No doubt the next decade will see equally important changes. Ranging from rural areas to urban ones it will be observed that people often lose sight of their traditional values. The organisation of youth branches catering for young people within these areas is of tremendous value and will become of increasing importance in the years ahead.

The major proposals within that document, as published, were that additional funds would be provided by the Department of Education to vocational education committees for assistance to youth and sport; they would be given money to spend, with considerable autonomy, within the bounds of policy on the specific needs of their localities in the youth and sport area and that they would have a formal co-ordinating role for all youth and sport services at local level. Provision was made for an experimental measure for what was called "Community animateurs”, which is a French derivation of a word. The idea behind it was that a professional person would move into an area where there was a lack of motivation, set up the necessary organisations and move on. In fact there is a need for a full-time professional youth officer in each area. Further, there was an in-service training scheme to be set up for full-time youth workers to be reviewed and reassessed after five years. There was also to be set up a sports council, with a chief executive, one of its principal rules being to promote the ideal of sport for all. It was recommended that that sports council would also operate a sports bureau, library and information service. There was to be an annual review of the existing grant aid schemes that would be instituted with the voluntary organisations and sports council, and that the vocational education committees were to implement policy decisions regarding youth and sport. There were major proposals in that document and we find one year later that very little has, in fact, been done in that area.

People have a right to be anxious about the position. The original document had its faults and failings but it at least created an opportunity for making progress, an opportunity that could have been grasped and a progress that could have been built on. Unfortunately the opportunity was not grasped and many voluntary organisations now do not know where they stand with the Minister. They do not know where the Department stands. They would like the Minister's thoughts and the Department's intentions clearly outlined in a document which would act as a supportive framework for their own constitutions. If such a framework were built and certain clearcut ideas were outlined, that in itself would be progress. If subsequently it was found in some way faulty or defective those faults and defects could be remedied in a relatively short time.

What do we find? We find more committees being set up, more information being sought, more questions being asked. The information gathered will be dealt with by the Department by the end of August, a time when many civil servants may be on holiday. Voluntary organisations are being asked to submit information about their activities and their intentions. There is no definite response from the Department. Organisations were already asked for all this information and no doubt the Department shelves are crammed with files in regard to every aspect of this whole matter in relation to youth work, files the Minister should be able to use and which his back-up team should be able to avail of to their advantage. Further information will be of little value at this stage as most of the information has already been produced. This kind of thing only results in further delay, disenchantment and discontent. It gives people the impression that the Minister is somehow afraid of introducing a policy based on the work of the previous administration. He should not be afraid. There were faults and failings and the Minister could now, to his own credit, correct these.

In relation to the now infamous document that Fianna Fáil produced to the nation shortly before the election, a document beginning now to wallow in a cesspool of broken promises, it was stated in the first line on page 31:

A national youth policy must be aimed at the total development of all our youth. The policy must recognise the different needs of young people today, from social survival to the fuller development of their talents.

It went on to give a list of the proposals that were to be introduced. If one cannot introduce the first line it is difficult to follow up with proposals.

Deputy Briscoe, who was and is still very interested in the area of youth on a "Here and Now" programme in January 1974, said that £3 million would be committed to the youth area in the first year of the Fianna Fáil administration.

I did not say that.

It may have been due to the early morning. Deputy Wyse on 28 May——

I want to correct that for the record. It is not accurate. I am not the spokesman for Fianna Fáil and I would not, therefore, commit my party. I stated I would like to see——

If Deputy Briscoe says he did not say that then the House must accept that and, if Deputy Kenny is quoting from a document, he should give the source of the quotation.

Deputy Briscoe may have a loss of memory.

On 28 May 1975 Deputy Wyse at column 1162 of volume 281 of the Official Report said:

If the Deputy would put us on the Government benches we would very soon produce a policy.

Where is it? Again, Deputy Wyse, in a press release on 25 January 1976, speaking in Galway on youth and community care said:

It is important that we should have guidelines for youth development and I must deplore the Government failure to produce a comprehensive youth policy. I want to assure you young people that we in Fianna Fáil are actively engaged in preparing a realistic youth policy.

Where is it?

In the spring of 1977 at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis, which, I understand, is to move its quarters next year——

To where? Croke Park, is it?

Up in Clonliffe Road. Deputy Wyse, the Fianna Fáil spokesman, said—and this was broadcast on the radio:

We have our youth policy ready and we will implement it immediately we get back to Government.

That policy ran to four pages of vague generalities and pious hopes. If there was a real policy ready to be implemented why was there any need to set up another committee recently under Justice O'Sullivan?

In May 1977, Deputy Wyse, giving the official Fianna Fáil reaction to the policy published by Deputy Bruton, faulted it on two counts. One was inadequate finance, in which he was correct, and the second was insufficient attention to the need for full-time professional workers, in which again he was correct. Why then, 12 months later, has no action been taken in this area?

The essence of youth work, according to the document published by the Coalition Government was a firm recognition that youth work has an important part to play in education, the primary objective of youth work is education and the intention of the policy is to further encourage voluntary organisations and volunteer workers rather than supplant them. Many voluntary organisations were asked if they would submit details of their intentions and their aims for young people and in The Irish Press of 7 March 1978 the Minister is reported as saying:

I am not prepared to develop youth work on the basis that it is a gap filler in the educational system.

That is the reply to the organisations which stressed the educational value of what they do. I can understand the Minister's concern in that area, but this statement has caused untold disruption in the plans for the future of many voluntary organisations in that they now feel that much of what they did has gone to waste.

They see their being asked to submit further information and more details to the Department as a time-wasting exercise and they interpret it as showing that the Department are not anxious to proceed with the introduction and implementation of a comprehensive youth policy.

Temporary employment grant schemes for youth employment this year total £300,000. I would like the Minister to tell us the number of applications received and when these schemes are likely to get under way. I would also like him to tell us the number of people who will find even temporary employment under these schemes. Most of the grants allocated to voluntary youth organisations, totalling something in the region of £700,000 this year, were allocated by the previous Administration. It is difficult to understand how we can spend £600,000 on "Lock-up House", a detention centre——

Now, Deputy, please.

I do not intend to go into it. I am merely making a comparison between that £600,000 and £700,000 in the area of youth and sport. The grants represent an increase of 10 per cent and, if one takes inflation and rising costs into account, in reality there is really very little improvement.

A sum of £70,000 has been allocated to the Macra na Tuaithe organisations this year for the third year running. Founded in 1952 they now have a membership of 274 active clubs totalling something in the region of 10,000 participants. In 1970 they received a grant of £9,000; in 1972, £19,000; in 1973, £22,000; in 1974, £37,800; in 1975, £62,200; in 1976, £70,000; in 1977, £70,000; in 1978, £70,000. Sometimes statistics can confuse the issue.

They sure can.

The selective use of statistics can confuse the issue. There was a big increase in 1974 and 1975. This was helpful because it represented the phasing out of the five-year development grant from the Kellogg Foundation at that time, introduced to initiate a system of regional development, a training programme for Macra na Tuaithe personnel, and to establish a national headquarters office. Those objectives have now been achieved and they feel, unless the shortfall of £27,000 this year is met by the Minister and the Department they will lose personnel and they will not be able to do much of the valuable work they could do otherwise because of the Department's inactivity.

The Minister speaks from the Department with the voice of authority. He should be able to go to the Cabinet table and impress upon his colleagues the potential and the formidable power which exist in our youth who will be our men and women in years to come. There is absolutely no reason why the shortfall of £27,000 should not be met this year, with a proportionate increase to other youth organisations who have proved their worth and shown they are dedicated and that they give value for money.

To refer back to the manifesto, if voluntary youth organisations are to be kept going, this is not the way to do it. I have been inundated with requests from different branches of Macra na Tuaithe. It is very difficult for a civil servant in a city office to understand and comprehend the value of work done by an organisation such as this. Recently I attended an achievements day with the Minister for the Gaeltacht. We were in total agreement about the value and the pleasure derived from work in an informal setting. This is what really counts with a young person. The time, effort and dedication put in by voluntary people to help young people to develop themselves should never be forgotten. If these achievements are to be lost because of a shortfall of money, the finger of shame will point fairly and squarely at the Government.

The National Federation of Youth Clubs, with 350 clubs throughout the country, received £49,000 this year. I understand they applied to the Employment Action Team for 20 full time youth officers. They need them and can tell them the work they want them to do. I understand as yet they have received no response. The National Youth Council of Ireland who do tremendous work in the area of youth received £29,000. They have 22 clubs and 11 associations, and they feel their allocation was inadequate. I do not want the Minister to get the idea I am asking him to dish out money left, right and centre to every organisation. I speak for the organisations who have proved their worth and who do very valuable work for youth.

Comhairle le Leas Óige within the Dublin city boundary received £200,000. What happens to the areas outside the Dublin city boundary which are growing at an immense rate and which must be catered for? This body are of tremendous value and this whole question should be looked at from the point of view of giving decent increases in aid to these organisations, as most of the aid was already designated by the previous administration.

The Scouts Association of Ireland are also in financial trouble. In 1970 they had a membership of 14,000; in 1974 it went up to 20,000; in 1978 the projections are that it will be 42,000. They have three professional people to deal with their members. In 1978 their application totalled £89,500 and they were allocated £31,000. Taking everything into consideration, they expect to have a deficit of something like £15,000 this year. That organisation increased their membership in a very short time. They do very valuable work and that work should not be wasted because of inadequate finance.

Approximately £4 million is allocated to the area of youth and sports in Northern Ireland. Here we would need at least £1,500,000 this year for youth work alone. We can ask what the Minister has done since he took office. He set up a new youth unit in the Department, mostly concerned with temporary employment schemes, and separated from the sports department. That unit was formed only recently and we cannot expect much action from it in such a short time. An advisory committee was set up on 4 May under Justice O'Sullivan to examine the nature and effectiveness of programmes being carried out by youth organisations in receipt of grants. Most of the 13 people on the committee are from the eastern area. All that is being examined is what is being done, and not what might be done. Most of the information requested is already in the departmental files and could be used to the Minister's advantage.

The Minister set up a Sports Council who differ from the one proposed by the Coalition Government. I have a very high regard for the people on that council, but they do not appear to have a clear and effective mandate. As the Minister said organisations, like humans, are born without teeth; the important point is that they should have the capacity for growing teeth. I do not know how many meetings the council have held since they were formed but, if the concept of sports for all is to be really developed by people on that council, we have not heard too much about that. They are very articulate. Some of them are sports heroes and heroines in their own right. I have grown up to admire and listen to them. The capacity and potential within that sports council is unlimited, provided they are given the necessary freedom to do what they can do rather than merely being an advisory body to the Minister.

I put down a question for oral answer some time ago about the VECs. I do not know what happened to it. It seems to have disappeared from the Order Paper. I should like the Minister to clarify whether he has given directions to the vocational education committees with regard to the spending of money allocated to them.

Young people have become more vocal, more articulate and more involved in the community recently Their voices are being heard in education, in politics and in the community generally. They wield a formidable power. Alienation could have disastrous consequences. The Minister has on his hands the defusing of a social time bomb. He has at his disposal the power to defuse it. I call on him to understand that young people are individual human beings and the prime concern should be with the life they will lead and not with the living they will earn.

The need is to adapt society to the service of mankind, not vice-versa. Aristotle said youth is easily decieved because it is quick to hope. Deceived it may be, but not for long. Yesterday the Minister said violence, unemployment and other social evils are the obstacles in life's way which lie before them. What kind of statement is that from a Minister of State to young people? I would ask him to state clearly the Department's stance, attitude and intention in this area, to put them into a framework which would support youth organisations, to introduce a national youth policy and increase voluntary aid to the proven organisations so that they can maintain and expand their existing work. Otherwise Fianna Fáil will become the undisputed champions of prognostication.

I move the following amendment:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—

"endorses the Government's policy on Youth and Sport and acknowledges the progress that has been made to date".

Deputy Kenny has invited me to implement the terms of a document which I inherited or to produce a Government policy. To do the former would be impossible because there was nothing in it to implement and I am not in the business of endeavouring to implement abstractions. To do the latter is unnecessary because at present I am as busy as a bee implementing my Government's policy on youth and sport. I could, if I had nothing better to do, act as my predecessor did and spend four years in indulging in the exercise of putting into print an aggregation of abstractions, surmise, thesis and antithesis which has come before us and which is euphemistically and charitably called a policy for youth and sport.

Deputy Kenny professes a concern for youth which I detect is not of his own true nature but has been given here to us. I say to him in all deference and as an older man that he has allowed himself to be used as the puppet of some other person or persons. I am surprised and I would even wager that I do not believe he ever read this policy on youth and sport. If he did I would differentiate between reading and studying it. If he tells me he read it and he studied it, then I must say that his comprehension lacks virtues and merits which I thought it had.

The Minister has intimated——

I did not interrupt the Deputy. Please do not act in a childish fashion.

Deputy Kenny made his statement and the Minister is in possession.

The Minister intimated that the policy was a basic document on which to work and that my comprehension of it——

The Deputy urges me to make more money available to youth organisations. Money, of course, is not the complete answer and I notice that Deputy Kenny did not so claim. On the other hand, it is worth nothing, and I must place it on the record of the House, that last year under the Deputy's Government, a total of £931,000 was spent on youth and sport and that this year, 1978, under a Fianna Fáil Government, a total of £1,376,000, an increase of 48 per cent, by far the biggest increase to date, has been spent. I assume that Deputy Kenny will accept that there is no effort there to mislead by statistics. They are facts which I know he will in his heart accept, even though as a politician he may feel that he should contest.

Staff is another important matter. Here I would indicate the difference between the word and the action. It was possible during my predecessor's time to implement his policy with staff that represents a mere 50 per cent of the staff which at the moment is busily engaged in my Department in implementing my policy. The Deputy will accept that, in the times in which we live, there is always difficulty in justifying the need for staff. Had it not been possible for me to explain that developments in my Department were such that I needed twice the number of staff as that which was engaged in operations in regard to youth and sport during the time of my predecessor, I would not have succeeded in getting them.

It might be worth placing on the record of the House that my predecessor, who was so busily engaged pursuing the interest of our youth and of our sporting organisations, had also the time—and here I take Deputy Kenny's word for this— apparently on his own, to write this famous document. Simultaneously it was possible for him to act as junior Minister to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I know that Deputy Bruton is an able man.

He is a very competent man.

I know that his interest in sport would be comparable with mine. I know that his interest in youth organisations would be comparable with my own. I am mindful of the fact that while he was serving in that duality of position as junior Minister to the then Deputy Keating who, at the time, was responsible for, among other things, prices and such kindred matters, he was also serving as junior Minister in my Department, and that in the interests of those two Departments he apparently decided to neglect his constituency. I so believed until, prior to the last general election, I saw that Deputy Bruton boasted of having 19 constituency clinics. Was it possible for such a man or is that the indication which we get from the much lauded Minister, the much lauded Government, to which Deputy Kenny refers?

On a point of order, is this relevant to the motion?

The Minister of State is completely relevant at the moment.

Bíonn an fhírinne searbh agus is trua liom faoi sin, ach sin mar a bhíonn sé. We are asked to expect that the Minister who was so disposed had this marvellous interest in youth and sport which surpasses all that which now follows. I might say, too, that consultation is essential if we are to get a clear manifestation of how organisations are thinking. Since I was given responsibility I have had discussions with every organisation which sought a meeting with me. I have attended annual general meetings, exhibitions, symposia and functions of all kinds where youth were assembled.

Here there may be a change between my attitude and that of my predecessor in so far as in my pursuit of the nature of the programme necessary, I have issued invitations and challenges to organisations. I have asked them to identify their area of operation. I have asked them to indicate to me the end product. I know that they have accepted my sincerity in so doing because they knew that I inherited such an area of misunderstanding, uncertainty and insecurity that the membership of these organisations were, as Eoin Rua Ó Súilleabháin said in his ceo draíochta, á seoladh timpeall tré thíorthaibh mar óinmhid ar strae. They did not know from day to day whether they were going to receive any funding. They were competely unaware of the Department's attitude to their programmes because for a whole period of four years the Minister who had the responsibility of consulting with them and of indicating to them in what direction they might go had seen fit to retire into the secrecy of his Department and apply himself to the preparation of that which is euphemistically called a policy document. If the document had the merit to which Deputy Kenny referred why did he not so indicate? What areas in that are not being attended to by me now? Perhaps when the Deputy is replying he would oblige.

Deputy Kenny referred to the youth employment scheme. I am glad he did. I do not agree at all that the area of full employment for youth as such is one which falls to my responsibility, and I am sure that any speaker who will follow will accept that that area of responsibility is entirely with another Department. I interpret my function as that which is concerned with and where ample scope exists for attending to youth when they are away and free from their employments, their vocations, their professions or their education. That is the real purpose of the youth culture in which I am interested. Here again on the question of education I ask Deputy Kenny whether he sees it as the raison d'etre of our youth organisations to take up the slack of an inefficient—if that be so —educational system. I would like him to indicate to the House his thinking on this. The Department of Education are charged with the responsibility of providing formal education for the youth, and if there are areas where that which is being provided is inappropriate, deficient and inadequate there is a responsibility on us to indicate where that inadequacy lies, but not to co-operate with the Department in perpetuating a wrong. There is far too much positive work to be done in the area of informal education than attending to the alleged omissions. The formal system might not cater as it should and I have so indicated, but I do not take it as being my responsibility that I should continue ad infinitum in redressing that deficiency.

I was amused at the manner in which Deputy Kenny would overlook the merits of Cuspóir the sports council which I established and at the same time expressed a certain disappointment that what is proposed in this great document was not there in its stead. If Deputy Kenny had read the document he would see that what was proposed by Deputy Bruton was a council of 18 persons, six of whom would be civil servants. Is Deputy Kenny lonely for their absence from the council which I have established? Does Deputy Kenny believe, as apparently Deputy Bruton believed, that action can take place much more speedily if you have the representatives of six different Departments engaged in the pursuit of one aim or objective? Perhaps when replying he would clear the air in that regard. Does he accept that it is better to have six members of six different Departments rather than have the benefit, experience and interest of known participants and administrators in sport?

I said that.

Has he any criticism to offer in respect of the council? He was disappointed that in the course of a few months the council had not transformed the scene. It might be no harm to remind Deputy Kenny that the council does little more than update and substitute for the council COSAC which was done to death by my predecessor. COSAC was a council representative of all these agencies, a council which was operating satisfactorily, a young organisation which had set up its regional committees. Why did the Coalition Government see fit to abolish that council? They did so because they knew that its existence and development would require an interest and an expenditure which they were not prepared to meet. If the position is otherwise Deputy Kenny when replying can clarify the situation.

On page 7 of the document A Policy for Youth and Sport there is a submission by the writer and the great creator which I quote:

The document . . . does not represent itself as the final contribution towards policy making.

We agreed on that.

Yet Deputy Kenny described this as a comprehensive policy document in respect of youth and sport.

Only as a basis on which to work.

The document speaks of lacks and drawbacks but puts forward no solutions. If it does Deputy Kenny might indicate where they lie. When I read the document originally I was very disappointed, because naturally as a person in whom all the human frailties lie, if there was a document there which was useful to me I would be happy and prepared to implement it. In one or two areas I was happy to extract from it its one or two morsels that were useful, but as to claiming that it is a comprehensive policy document, Deputy Kenny knows as well as I do that that is a claim for which there is no base.

I said it is a basis on which to build.

When replying Deputy Kenny will indicate the area in this policy document for which he is lonely and which he would like me to introduce. I was listening to him closely but may not have absorbed fully what he said. Is it his intention that when sometime he is responsible for youth and sport he is going to hand youth and sport over to vocational educational committees? Is that what he implied?

I did not say that.

Does he intend to have the area of youth and sport, which is one where imagination, originally and freedom are essential, inhibited and constrained by statute? If he is, then let him preach and speak of the virtues of that proposal. I am surprised that he, as spokesman for the Opposition, would claim that he misses the implementation of that principle because the representatives and organisations with whom I have had discussions were very happy when I indicated to them that so far as I was concerned youth policy must be as autonomous as possible and must be as free as possible from the constraints of statute and from the inhibitions of bureaucracy. If Deputy Kenny is not in agreement with that approach let him indicate to the House the virtues of the other approach and indicate also the organisations for whom the presumes to speak. I am not aware of these organisations so it would be news to me if the Deputy on behalf of Fine Gael is suggesting that this whole area, this whole culture or sub-culture, should be handed over now to the vocational educational committees.

That is not what I said.

The report will show what the Deputy said. He quoted me in regard to what I said concerning Cuspóir. When establishing that body I said I had noted that Deputy Bruton in his criticism of COSAC had referred to the fact that that body had no teeth. I pursued the dental analogy to say that human institutions are not born with teeth and that if their baby teeth were extracted they could not have molars. I am sure Deputy Kenny will accept the analogy.

Why did not the Coalition and Deputy Bruton in their four years in office re-establish a sports council? Why, on the eve of an election, did they release from the archives of the Department a document which had remained in captivity for four years apparently? I must explain that in referring to Deputy Bruton I am not being personal. Rather, I am criticising our predecessors in office because I am sure that the Deputy made some effort on behalf of youth and sport but that his efforts were thwarted and stymied by the then Minister for Finance and by the Coalition as a whole.

The Minister made a personal attack on Deputy Bruton in referring to his constituency work.

I was trying to relate how the Deputy could be so busy in his constituency in which he had, I think, 19 clinics, and at the same time be doing the work of another Department in regard to keeping down prices in addition to working on a policy document in the Department of Education. That was a valid point.

We are waiting to hear about the youth policy the Minister has. We have had nothing but criticism so far.

The Minister should not be interrupted.

As I have indicated, already I have established a Sports Council and have conveyed to local vocational educational committees an invitation to submit proposals regarding youth, indicating that I shall be prepared to fund proposals that are acceptable. But in respect of these proposals my hope would be that they would be carried out by youth organisations and not by the vocational education committees.

The figure provided this year in respect of temporary youth employment is £300,000. I am hopeful that that amount will be improved on. Deputy Kenny has reminded us that I have established also a special advisory committee which I hope will report to me, having cleared their own minds as to what contribution is being made and as to how it can be improved. I have indicated to that committee that they should report to me, not in four years but within four months. When the report comes to hand I shall use it in giving muscle to the policy which I am implementing already.

Is this policy set out anywhere because those interested would like to have the opportunity of reading it?

Actions speak louder than words.

Surely there should be a document of some sort setting out the policy.

The Deputy has had his 40 minutes and he will have 15 minutes in which to reply. He should not endeavour to take up the Minister's time.

Is the Deputy looking for a repeat of four years in captivity and the production of a mouse at the end of that time?

The voluntary organisations do not know where they stand.

They know precisely where they stand especially so far as I am concerned.

They would like a document of some kind.

The Deputy will have the opportunity of replying later.

They know the various strands and elements that go into a policy of this kind. Naturally, each element is concerned about its own interests but I understand that they sympathise with me in so far as they are aware that I cannot disregard the interest of any one group or prejudice the interest of another. They understand that it is my responsibility to ascertain to what extent the total operation already in existence fits in with the plans, the proposals, and the promises of our manifesto. If it is found that any gap exists it will be my responsibility to fill that gap. That is the work in which I am involved but if what I have achieved so far is a source of disappointment or envy to members of the Opposition, that is not my fault. I indicated at a meeting of the National Youth Council that it was my intention to set up a committee that would advise me. This proposal, with one or two notable exceptions, was accepted and acclaimed. Afterwards many comments were made to me to the effect that, having regard to the four years that had been spent in the wilderness, it was now necessary to indicate the direction in which we were moving and the different routes that should be taken.

The capital grant in respect of youth and sport is £200,000 this year as against a promise of a £30,000 interest subsidy proposal. We are now in the process of granting the £200,000. Would the Deputy prefer the shadow to the substance? Again, in accordance with the promise we made I have established a separate unit for youth matters in my Department. Is that accepted by the Deputy as being a worth-while move? I have not noticed any reference to it so far.

Finally, I would hope that in making his contribution in future Deputy Kenny would examine the scene, see what is being done, give fair comment and give the House the benefit of his undoubted abilities and his own youth and experience on this and not come here giving voice, as perhaps he had been asked to do, to something in which he does not believe.

That is not a fair comment.

It is with some sadness that I rise to speak on this motion and the related amendment because it has always been clear to me that the area of youth and youth policy has a greater capacity for invoking false attitudes and hypocrisy than almost any other in our political life. This is a tragedy. I would invite the House to look at the public gallery. Is there one young person there listening to this mock battle below? Look at the people in these benches. Deputy Kenny is the youngest of us and he is no longer a chicken, with due respect to the Deputy concerned. It is symptomatic, I believe, of the failure of many Governments to make of youth policy something permanent and enduring and creative that this debate is being conducted in these circumstances, while the young people about whom we are talking are somewhere else. I doubt that they even know that this debate is going on or that they would be interested if they knew. If they were interested enough to come here and get a ticket for the visitor's gallery, what would they think of what we are debating and what would they think, in particular, of the sterile party acrimony which characterised the speech of the Minister of State? I do declare that Mr. Micawber could not have done better. They would likely come to the conclusion that this House and everybody in it was an obscene irrelevance.

I gather Deputy Horgan is summing up the debate.

The Deputy should tell us where he was for the past four years.

I yield to nobody in my belief that this House is relevant and can be made relevant to the problems of young people and to all the problems which face our society. We will need more evidence of it than we have had from the Government side of the House up to now.

Deputy Kenny suggested that in response to the Government's youth policy as outlined in their election manifesto the majority of young people in the last election voted for the present Government. Some 56 per cent of the electorate who voted gave their first preferences to the Fianna Fáil Party. It would be unusual, to put it mildly, if a very large number of young people did not also vote for the Fianna Fáil Party if only because young people are very much more likely to vote the way their parents vote than to vote for a different political party. A sign of that is the complete lack of controversy about lowering the voting age. Each political party know in their heart that lowering the voting age is unlikely to make any real difference to the political balance of power. I tend to think, though it is naturally difficult to prove, that the youth vote for the present Government——

I do not think we should analyse voting patterns on this motion. We should deal with the motion before the House.

I am dealing with it on the basis that the Government's youth policy was an integral part of their election strategy and it seems to me to be relevant to talk about whether or not it worked and whether we are now being given what the Government then promised. I will curtail my remarks in deference to the Chair. The electorate in four years' time will be evaluating this policy which the Minister of State has brought up for our consideration—if they are lucky, if they have not left us and gone somewhere else. The Government may be lucky if they are not still here.

The Minister of State referred to the fairly substantial increase in the youth and sport programme. It is true that there has been a large increase, but he did not point out that virtually the entirety of this increase has been in the area of sport.

That is not true.

A very substantial part of that increase was in the area of sport rather than youth. In the context in which I am saying this, it would be churlish not to acknowledge that sport in the current year has got a very substantial increase but the wider area of youth policy has not benefited to anything like the same extent under the Minister's hand. A number of relatively minor commitments were made and have been honoured, such as the commitment to reorganise the Department of Education, but we are still waiting for any sign of the overall policy relating to a new infrastructure for the development of youth work, which was an integral part of the Fianna Fáil youth policy but has still to be implemented by them in any meaningful way.

When the Minister of State came into office he inherited the document published under Deputy Bruton's administration. He has made clear his attitude to that document. We have had the appointment of an advisory committee and also a marginal increase in the amount of money promised under the previous Administration to the vocational education committees. Under the previous Administration the VECs were promised some £100,000; the commitment of the present Government is £106,000. I do not know where the extra £6,000 came from or on what basis it was decided that an extra £6,000 was appropriate, but I am sorry that we have not had from the Minister of State more information about how this money is to be spent. This information was specifically asked for by Deputy Kenny.

Unless I am mistaken the vocational education committees were asked to have with his Department by 30 April last their proposals for spending that money. We have not been told what kind of proposals they are and how much—and this is the key question— each committee is going to get. If you divided the number of committees into the money you would get about £3,000 per committee. Is this what the Minister's approach is going to be, a simple sharing out process? It is now almost a month since the deadline for receiving submissions from the committees and we asked for this information in this House and it has not yet been given to us.

There is a great danger that the action of the Minister of State in setting up an advisory committee will simply lead to further cynicism about youth policy in general. In the meantime there is the undeniable fact that our two or three major youth organisations are, as Deputy Kenny spelled out in some detail, severely short of money in the current year. Macra na Tuaithe's grant has been mentioned. The National Federation of Youth Clubs have been hit also, but perhaps not as seriously as Macra na Tuaithe. Comhairle le Leas Óige are stretching every penny as far as they can go to try to make ends meet. Even at that their efficiency is severely circumscribed by the fact that the boundary within which they are legally entitled to operate has long since ceased to have any relationship to the need which is felt for their services in the greater Dublin area. How can you tell a young man or woman who wants to go to a youth club that the boundary within which Comhairle le Leas Oige are still required to operate ends at the Submarine public house in Crumlin. They do not understand that and it would be pointless to expect them to.

One of the things the Department are engaged in is the temporary employment scheme for which some £300,000 have been allocated. I was glad to hear the Minister of State say he hopes it will be more. If he brings in a Supplementary Estimate we on this side of the House will be the first to welcome it. But if, as I suspect is the case, the Minister of State has on his desk two or three separate applications for every pound of those £300,000, and two or three projects for every one he is going to be able to afford to finance, I would urge him as a matter of considerable urgency to bring in the Employment Action Team because they, we are told, are looking for projects on which to spend money. If on the one hand the Employment Action Team are looking for projects on which to spend money and, on the other, the Department of Education have more projects than they have money to fund, surely common sense dictates the two should be put in some form of proximity.

I have already spoken about the money going to vocational education committees. It is always better that money should be spent than that no money should be spent, but the fundamental problem which has not yet been adequately tackled is that there is no infrastructure through which this money can be effectively channelled on a national basis. For example, it is not widely recognised that apart from the obvious areas of Dublin and Cork some of the counties which have the highest youth populations are the counties along the western seaboard. To be precise, Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Kerry share with Cork and Dublin the distinction of being the counties with a population of over 30,000 in the age bracket between 11 and 25. We need desperately an infrastructure which can take this into account. We need an infrastructure which can pay as much attention to these parts of our country as to the urban areas which are often thought of as being most in need. No public representative will willingly concede that any other area is more in need than his own of help for youth policy, but on the figures of pure population we can see that there is a major need in the western seaboard counties.

It is time for the Government to act radically, to dissolve the Employment Action Team and to set up an agency which would consolidate, co-ordinate and extend the many existing schemes which are being organised under the aegis of the Department of Education, An Comhairle Oiliúna and the Department of the Environment. This agency should encourage, investigate and experiment in schemes of temporary employment, work experience and perhaps also of enterprise. The IDA already have a scheme for businessmen who have proved themselves in business and who want to start up business on their own. Should not a national co-ordinating agency be prepared to do the same thing for young people who have ideas and who have more energy than the rest of us in many cases?

There should be liaison between a youth policy and an education policy. The Minister of State pointed out that the Department of Education are charged with the formal education of the youth of this country, but after the age of 15 it is optional whether or not young people attend school. In many cases they cannot afford to continue attending school and they fall out of the net. They fall out of the net even earlier in some cases if they have been alienated by an educational system which still pays too much attention to university entrance and not enough to the business of preparing people for work.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 May 1978.
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