Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 2

Allocation of Time: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Moore)

I move:

That notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders and in the Resolution of the Dáil of 23 April, 1980 (as amended by the Resolution of 22 May, 1980)—

(i) the Dáil shall adjourn not later than 5 p.m. on Friday, 13 June, 1980 and on Friday 20 June, 1980 and the arrangement for the taking of Estimates for the Public Services on Fridays provided for in the Resolution of 23 April, 1980 shall terminate on Friday, 20 June;

(ii) in the proceedings on each Estimate for the Public Service (or Revised Estimate or Supplementary Estimate, as appropriate) for the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980 as set out in the Schedule hereto, the Question, if not already put, shall be put on the day and at the time indicated: and where a number of Estimates is specified in relation to a time, the Questions on them shall be put successively; and the provisions of paragraphs (i), (ii) and (iii) of the Resolution of 22 May, 1980 shall not apply in a debate on an Estimate.

SCHEDULE

Friday, 13th June, 1980:

Estimates (1980)	Time at which Question shall be put.
Votes Nos:—
52. (Energy) (Supplementary Estimate),	1.30 p.m.
52. (Energy) (Supplementary Estimate).
38. (Roinn na Gaeltachta).	2.15 p.m.
22. (Office of the Minister for Justice).	3.30 p.m.
23. (Garda Síochána),
24. (Prisons),
25. (Courts),
26. (Land Registry and Registry of Deeds),
27. (Charitable Donations and Bequests).
43. (Transport) (Revised Estimate).	4.15 p.m.
45. (Defence),	5.00 p.m.
46. (Army Pensions).

Friday, 20th June, 1980:

47. (Foreign Affairs),	11.45 a.m.
48. (International Co-operation).
50. (Health).	1.15 p.m.
41. (Labour).	2.30 p.m.
36. (Fisheries),	3.30 p.m.
37. (Forestry).
18. (Office of the Minister for the Public Service),	5.00 p.m.
19. (Civil Service Commission),
20. (Superannuation and Retired Allowances),
9. (Public Works and Buildings),
1. (President's Establishment),
2. (Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Assembly),
4. (Central Statistics Office),
6. (Office of the Minister for Finance) (Revised Estimate),
7. (Comptroller and Auditor General),
8. (Office of the Revenue Commissioners),
10. (State Laboratory),
11. (Secret Service),
12. (Office of the Attorney General),
13. (Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions),
14. (Miscellaneous Expenses),
15. (Stationery Office),
16. (Valuation and Ordnance Survey),
17. (Rates on Government Property),
21. (Agricultural Grants),
51. (Employment Guarantee Fund).

Mr. P. Barry

I do not see in the list of Estimates any sum of money for Fóir Teoranta. The annual report of Fóir Teoranta for 1979 has been published this morning and it says that they expect an increased number of firms to seek assistance during 1980. They also said—and it is very surprising that the Government did not forsee this—that last year the number of people seeking assistance began to increase from the middle of the year. Yet the Government provided a sum in the Estimates for 1980 which is half the amount of money that had been estimated for 1979. It is obvious to us on this side of the House, and I should have thought to most people outside the House, that because of the way the Government have mismanaged the economy for three years many more jobs will be threatened and many more redundancies may come about. Yet, the Government have done nothing to provide the funds that are necessary for this agency to rescue them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Fóir Teoranta is not already covered in the Estimates before us I suggest that the Whips might consider the matter and include it.

Mr. P. Barry

Surely the Minister for Finance can tell us if it is included—it is his Department.

Mr. O'Kennedy

It is covered in the normal way within the ordinary Finance Resolution and any moneys that are necessary to provide funds required for Fóir Teoranta will be provided.

Mr. P. Barry

Are they included now?

Mr. O'Kennedy

We can deal with this at the appropriate time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It will come up at the appropriate time. The Minister says it is included here.

Mr. P. Barry

What is the appropriate time?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

When we come to those Estimates, there will be an opportunity.

Mr. P. Barry

That will be next Friday week and the Dáil will recess on the following week probably until the end of September or the middle of October. What will happen in the meantime if Fóir Teoranta have no funds?

The Taoiseach

This motion deals with the allocation of time and the arrangements have been agreed between the Whips.

Mr. P. Barry

The time has been agreed but——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot continue with this debate.

Mr. P. Barry

——I am concerned about what will be debated in those times, which is a different matter entirely.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot continue in this way by way of question and answer on a motion.

Dr. FitzGerald

Under which Vote will this matter be discussed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am told it can be raised on the Finance group.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Deputy Barry tried to raise this on the Order of Business, when it would have been perfectly in order, and he was told he could raise it when the motion was moved. As I understand it, Deputy Barry's trouble is that this Estimate is not coming up for debate and is not coming up to provide money.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has been informed that it is already covered in the Estimates before the House.

Dr. FitzGerald

Which Vote?

Mr. P. Barry

Under which one is there an inclusion for Fóir Teoranta?

Dr. FitzGerald

Will the Minister tell us which Vote?

Mr. O'Kennedy

Within the Finance group.

Dr. FitzGerald

Where?

Mr. O'Kennedy

As I understand it, the motion before us this morning is in relation to the time allocation and this hardly seems the appropriate place to raise this matter. I assure the Deputies opposite I have not had any notice about this before now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate it at this stage.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I assure the Deputies opposite that adequate provision is being made.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has already suggested if it is not in that list the Whips will see that it is included.

Mr. Kelly

Is the House not now debating a motion?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is a motion before the House. We cannot debate it by way of question and answer.

Mr. Kelly

No, but I presume it is possible for every Member of the House to speak on the motion before it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Only on what is in the motion, the time to be allocated for dealing with those Estimates.

Mr. Kelly

The contents of the material for which this motion is designed to provide is clearly relevant as to whether it should be agreed on or not. Deputy Barry's point is——

The Taoiseach

I must deplore this procedure by the Fine Gael Party. This time allocation has been agreed between the parties by the Whips. The Estimates which are to be taken and discussed and the times allocated have all been agreed by the Whips. If we are to have this sort of thing where the Whips agree something, we come in here to confirm it and it is all disputed and raised again, I do not think we can do our business properly.

Mr. Bruton

Are there to be any additional Supplementary Estimates over and above those contained in this list before the Dáil goes into recess? I raised this question for a particular reason. I note that there has been in the Estimate for Education an under provision for school transport and the Department have now decided to maintain the scheme as it now stands. This will presumably mean that a Supplementary Estimate for school transport will be necessary to make up the deficit which was not provided in the original Estimate. I am surprised that there is not among this list of Estimates any provision for a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Education to enable this deficit to be made up. Will such a Supplementary Estimate be introduced? Are any other Supplementary Estimates to be introduced on any other subject before the Dáil goes into recess?

The Taoiseach

This could be discussed with the Whips. It is already agreed that these are the Estimates which will be taken between now and the recess and no other Estimates.

Dr. FitzGerald

Where will the Taoiseach get the money for school transport?

The Taoiseach

No problem. I can assure the Deputy that Fianna Fáil school buses will continue to roll.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair must point out that this is a motion the same as any other motion before the House. It is already proposed. If it is to be debated a Deputy will have to stand up and make his statement, but not by way of question and answer. It cannot be debated in that fashion.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Some people have spoken three times on it already.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Nobody is entitled to do that. The Chair has already said that the motion is proposed. If any other speaker wishes to come in on it, not to ask questions, he can come in on it and speak on it so long as Deputies confine their speeches to the timings of the motion.

Dr. FitzGerald

I wish to deal with a point which the Taoiseach has made. If I understood him correctly, the Taoiseach said that those Estimates only and no Supplementary Estimates will be discussed. Our understanding is that there is a proposal to have Supplementary Estimates, one of which has been named, the Environment, and we are told there are others. The Taoiseach has now contradicted this in the House, which makes it difficult for us to know where we stand. I seek clarification on that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are concluding. The Taoiseach to conclude on this motion.

The Taoiseach

My understanding is that this programme of Estimates had been agreed between the Whips. My understanding also was that this motion of time allocation was agreed between the Whips and would not be the subject of this discussion and debate this morning. It is very disconcerting for the Government to come in here with a motion on the understanding that is was agreed unanimously between the Whips and then to find it the subject of this sort of attack by the Opposition. I suggest to the leader of the Opposition that we cannot do our business efficiently if we cannot adhere to arrangements made between the Whips.

Mr. P. Barry

The Taoiseach is very sensitive.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The debate is now concluded.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

What is before the House at the moment is a programme of Estimates which has been agreed between the Whips and the time allocated for them. If there are any other Estimates which have to be brought before the House between now and the recess these will be discussed with the Whips. At the moment, as far as the Government are concerned, these are the Estimates which are to be discussed between now and the Summer Recess. Any other Estimates, Supplementary or otherwise, which are agreed between the Whips, can be discussed.

Mr. Bruton

That is a different answer to the one the Taoiseach gave two minutes ago.

Mr. L'Estrange

With regard to what the Taoiseach said, it is only right that we clarify the matter. We have certainly agreed to this, but the Opposition looked for clarification as regards money for Fóir Teoranta and they mentioned other Estimates. We have been told that the Government will be looking for time for other Supplementary Estimates—Social Welfare and the Environment have been mentioned. I do not think they are in question in what we have agreed. We have agreed on this time programme, but I do not think that includes the matter of where the Government will get the money for Fóir Teoranta.

Dr. FitzGerald

The difficulty is that those things should have come up on the Order of Business but it was passed too quickly and we were pushed on to this motion.

Question put and agreed to.