Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 7

Fishery Harbour Centres Bill, 1980: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. White

This Bill deals with five different centres that have been passed where major catches of fish would be landed around the coast of Ireland and particularly with Rossaveal in County Galway. The Minister rightly said that fishermen fishing into Rossaveal would save a lot of time and fuel if it were made the major port instead of Galway. I welcomed this and said it was about time it was nominated as one of the top five ports in the country. Neither the Minister nor I have anything against the port of Galway, but Galway is that little bit too far inland and is a city. I do not think fish could move as freely out of Galway as we hope they will do out of Rossaveel.

I asked the Minister the last day if he would tell the House if the new harbour board for Rossaveel has been nominated and, if so, who the members are. If it has not the Minister should take into account the fishermen, the co-operative movement in the area and someone who would deal with the expectations we have regarding the oil rigs. It is only fair to state that we expect there will be major oil fields off Rossaveel. They should have some say in this harbour. It is important that the fishermen should nominate somebody to the board and that the co-operative movement in the area should have a nominee. I suggest also that people from the Aran Islands should have a nominee. I am sure the Minister has given thought to nominees from Government Departments such as the Department of the Gaeltacht, the Department of the Environment, the Department of Fisheries and so on, but these other sectors should also have a voice on the board.

Rossaveel, as far as oil is concerned, could become one of the greatest ports in decades. If, as expected, there is a lot of oil off the west coast, Rossaveel seems to be in the centre and we want to safeguard their interests as well as fishermen's interests. I visited Rossaveel a few months ago and a lot of development has taken place there recently. I do not know if the Minister has visited it and, if not, I suggest he does so. A lot more development is needed in this harbour. I should like the Minister to tell us how much money has been allocated for this harbour in the next few years, when the work will commence and when it is hoped to complete it. An extension to the harbour is needed at present, and there are a lot of rocks in the entrance which need to be taken away. Part of the entrance needs to be dredged to make it a feasible major harbour.

When we talk about one of the top five harbours in the country it is worth remembering that within the next few months we will be talking about boats over 100 feet coming into harbours like Killybegs and Rossaveel. Now is the time not just to plan but to see that the plans are executed. The greatest fault with the Department of Fisheries is that we hear plenty about plans but little about action. For whatever plan there is money should be made available immediately and the work should be started and finished as soon as possible, if we are sincere about making Rossaveel one of our five major ports. One thing that strikes one going to Rossaveel is the deplorable state of the roads. They are worse than the road to Killybegs. If we are serious about processing more fish and setting up more plants for that purpose we should be prepared to cater for many more juggernauts on those roads. The road leading to Rossaveel harbour is not suitable for big lorries that can be expected to travel on it.

In line with the development of the harbours I hope the Minister proposes to develop the roads leading to them. The last three or four miles from Galway to Rossaveal is certainly in need of repair. Two big lorries are not able to pass each other on that road. In my view the Department of Fisheries should be working in conjunction with the Department of Energy in relation to the development of our harbours. I should like to know if the Department of Energy has been asked to subscribe any money to the development of Rossaveel to cater for our fishermen and those involved in oil exploration. Has the Department of Energy been asked to subscribe any money for the back-up services needed at that port? I have been told that the Department is committed to spending £5 million on Rossaveel and I should like to know if that information is correct. I should like to know if that figure is the £5 million allotted for the development of all our ports this year.

It is worth remembering that Denmark, which has a population just double oúrs, spend in the region of £15 million annually on the development of their harbours, slips and piers. We should be thinking of spending a lot more annually on the development of our harbour and berthing facilities and our fish processing plants. Until there is a firm commitment and determination by the Minister to do this work, every day we speak about it and do nothing is another day wasted. Our five major ports are Howth, Dunmore East, Killybegs, Castletownbere and Rossaveel and I should like to know if it is too late to add a sixth port to that list. It should be remembered that there is no major port between Castletownbere and Rossaveel and it is amazing that a place like Dingle was not developed properly. The Minister should give us his reason why Dingle was not considered for major development.

We have been talking for many years about an auction hall and a syncro lift at Killybegs. I recall that five years ago they were promised to Killybegs. We have had promises for years but a brick has not been laid yet. I understand that the Minister has been giving some thought to restricting the hours of auctions at our ports. A restriction of those hours would be a backward step. When dealing with fishermen we must remember that we are not dealing with people whose hours are restricted to 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. and auction halls that close up at 7 p.m. or 8 p.m. We are dealing with people who cannot say when they will return home. At times they return at midnight but on occasions they do not return until the early hours of the morning. It would be to the benefit of the entire industry if it was left to those involved to decide on the hours to operate the auctions. Naturally, if there are no fish available the auction halls will not open but when there are fish in the ports we must be realistic enough to permit the auction halls to open. It should be left to the people running the auctions to decide on the hours. Those involved in running other auctions only hold them when they have objects to dispose of. I hope the Minister is not considering restricting the hours of fish auction halls.

I realise that there are major development plans for Howth. The middle pier, however, needs to be replaced urgently. I am bearing in mind that most of the major development plans will not take place for about 18 months but that pier should be replaced before that. I am pleased to note that at last a premises has been given to the fishermen in Dunmore East. When I visited that port recently the fishermen told me that they were not happy because the harbour there needs to be dredged urgently. We cannot expect some of the super ships to go to Dunmore East unless the harbour is properly dredged. The same applies to Burtonport in County Donegal. For up to seven years Deputies on all sides have been asking different Ministers to dredge that harbour but nothing has happened. If we are serious about the fishing industry we must spend money to provide the proper facilities to our fishermen.

I realise that major development work is in progress at Castletownbere. I hope to visit that port shortly and I am anxious to meet all the fishermen who use that port. I am anxious to learn of their problems. As I told the Minister last night, when he visits Killybegs on Saturday night, even though his visit is for a political dinner-dance, he should make arrangements to meet the different fishing interests. The Minister is aware that Killybegs is the major fishing port in the country and it is strange to think that he has not made arrangements to meet the different organisations operating from that port. As I tour around the ports I hope to meet local fishermen and listen to their problems. If the Minister did something similar he would be in a position to make up his own mind as to what should be done for the future of the industry.

Some pressure has been exerted recently on the Minister to see to it that the Bulgarian boats are not withdrawn from Donegal Bay. Before the Minister reaches a decision in relation to this he should consider carefully the people who benefit from the presence of those boats in Donegal Bay. He should bear in mind that before those boats arrived the fishermen were getting 11p per lb. for their herring but today they get in the region of 22p per lb. That shows that local fishermen have benefited from the competition. Deputy Deasy has just informed me that the figures should have been £22 per box, but it is the same thing. Surely we all agree that what fishermen and the fishing industry need is more competition, more processing, more markets abroad and, eventually, a better price for our fish.

The Minister must have been as distressed as I was last week when he told me that £6 million worth of fish is being imported back into the country. We must be all concerned about that when we realise that it is estimated we are exporting £36 million and £40 million worth of fish per annum and importing back about one-sixth of our total export. There is something wrong with the fishing industry when we are not processing that fish at home. Top priority at present must go to markets abroad and secondly to processing our fish within our shores. Until we deal with these matters we are bound to have gluts and shortages, high prices and low prices. We should endeavour to see that there is a constant supply of fish and that we have permanent markets in which we can sell them.

I noticed a heading in this morning's Irish Press:“Fishing Laws Challenged in Luxembourg”. The article states:

The Government's right to legislation on fishing activities in Irish waters, and to impose a fine if these laws are broken is being challenged in the European Court in Luxembourg.

The important thing it goes on to say is this:

The case has been referred to the European Court by the Co. Cork Circuit Court, which has asked Luxembourg to rule whether a conviction under Irish law for the fishing offence was contrary to EEC law.

I mention this because it is very important that we should be able to define exactly our fishing rights. I do not want to hark back but even now I would insist that when the Minister talks to his partners in Brussels there must be a major distinction between our Irish fishing rights and the EEC fishing waters. Last year we saw in Deputy Deasy's area that the south-east fishermen were not allowed to fish for herring in their own area. We could come up against this again. It is rumoured that the Celtic Sea may be opened next September. If it is, and if we have all the EEC boats descending on the Celtic Sea it is only a matter of time before the entire Celtic Sea will be closed again because of overfishing.

We must come back to a limit even if it is only 20 or 25 miles. We must have an exclusive limit for Irish fishing waters. Outside that you can then talk about EEC waters. It has been proved by questions in this House that when we ask about quotas we can get the information as regards Irish quotas but we cannot get information as regards EEC quotas. So long as quotas are concerned and so long as you have foreign fishermen fishing in Irish waters we will not get a true position in regard to quotas. The fight that the Minister must take on his shoulders when he goes to the EEC fishing council is to secure first an exclusive zone for Irish fishermen. After that we can talk of EEC waters.

I should like to say one more thing, and I do so with all respect. I was disgusted last night by the Minister's performance as Minister for Fisheries and I hope we shall never see such a display again from a senior Minister. I expect the Minister for Fisheries to lead and act responsibly and not have, as we had last night, the Minister and another Deputy mudslinging at each other across the House. The fishing industry demands a responsible Minister. It needs a constructive approach because there are challenging times ahead and unless we have that approach it is the industry that will suffer.

Mr. Deasy

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Bill. I support it fully and I am 100 per cent behind any move to develop our harbours. I look forward to the development of Rossaveel as one of the five primary fishery harbours together with Castletownbere, Dunmore East, Howth and Killybegs. Harbours are an essential part of the infrastructure, for the fishing industry. Unfortunately, we have been deficient for far too long in this area and most harbours up to recently were remnants of the British regime dating back 100 or 150 years. Many of these—they are fine harbours—are still being utilised but they are outdated and we need modern techniques and methods. We need greater areas not only in the harbours themselves but in the back-up areas, land for processing facilities behind the harbours.

I am glad that the developments in the five areas mentioned in the Minister's speech have been extensive and appreciated by the people and they are doing much good for the industry. I should like to see an extension of the forward thinking we have had in the past 12 or 15 years to further development, not necessarily on the same scale but to provide safe moorings and berthings at all times and facilitate entry and exit from harbours at all times so that fishermen could earn a good living.

Statistics on fishing and harbours do not make good reading. The last Bord Iascaigh Mhara report says that there are almost 8,600-9,000 fishermen in the country of whom approximately 3,000 are full-time and some 6,000 are part-time or seasonal. Those figures tell their own story. We have 6,000 part-time fishermen because they have not facilities to put to sea at all times and at all tides. They operate from inferior harbours and cannot get in or out in stormy weather. We should tackle and solve that problem. I should like to see the bulk of our fishermen as full-time fishermen who could put to sea at all times independent of weather conditions. If harbour development reached its full potential we would not have 9,000 fishermen but more likely 90,000. The present figure could be multiplied by ten. The raw material is there. We are a maritime nation. We have the opportunity but we have never attempted to exploit it to its full potential.

I should like to see a national fisheries policy with that very object, full utilisation of our fisheries. We see the tremendous development in Killybegs, one of the five centres the Minister mentioned. This is an example of what can be done elsewhere. There are numerous processing plants around Killybegs harbour. Unfortunately, the same is not true of the other centres that have been developed. In Castletownbere and at Deenish island there is a large industrial estate adjacent to the pier, but this estate has never been developed. What has been done is only a drop in the ocean compared with what could be done. It is no advantage to have excellent harbours unless we have the processing facilities that should go with them.

The same situation arises in Dunmore East. The processing facilities are only a tiny percentage of what they could be. That brings us back to the very important point of processing and our lack of facilities in that regard. I believe the ratio of people involved in the processing industry here is less than a one to one basis. There are 9,000 fishermen in the country and I believe there should be at least the same number involved in the processing sector. The number involved could probably be measured in hundreds rather than in thousands. That compares very badly with our EEC partners. All the maritime EEC countries have very strong processing industries. I am told that in Denmark there are seven people engaged in the processing industry for every fisherman at sea. If we were to compare on that ratio we would have 63,000 people involved in processing. The Minister and his Department should see that we get the fullest value out of our fisheries and that we do not export the bulk of what we catch in an unprocessed form.

Anybody who goes into a supermarket, where tinned and packaged fish are for sale, can see that the bulk of the processed fish we buy is from foreign countries. It is a scandalous state of affairs for a maritime nation to import £6 million of processed fish when we should be a large net exporter. We seem to import an extraordinary amount of fish for a country surrounded by the sea. The amount of fish we import is undermining our fishing industry.

All the maritime countries in the world are claiming a 200 mile limit. Countries with rich fishing grounds such as Canada, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Iceland and Norway have far more fish than they need and they have now become huge exporters of fish. Now that the Russian, American and British trawler fleets have been withdrawn from their waters they can catch huge quantities of fish, and they are flooding the world markets with their excess catches. We are one of the countries suffering because of that.

The EEC have been negligent and have not done us justice They have allowed the third countries I have mentioned plus Argentina, Peru, Brazil and other South American countries to export large quantities of processed fish to the EEC countries. This has had a very depressing effect on our fishing industry. Will the Minister see that this practice is stopped and that we are allowed to develop our fisheries under the terms of the Hague Agreement of October 1976? This agreement said that we were to be allowed double our catch within three years and we were to be allowed a progressive development of our fisheries thereafter. The terms of that agreement have not been fulfilled. We have not doubled our catch. In fact, it has almost remained static. If it has increased at all it is only because other EEC countries have discovered vast quantities of fish which have not got a great commercial value but which look good in the form of statistics. I refer to horse mackerel, better known as scad, of which we have got huge quantities off the west and south coasts, and blue whiting, which exists in unlimited quantities in the Porcupine Bank about 100 to 150 miles off the west coast. Those areas are producing vast catches of fish for the British, who have been purse seine netting for mackerel on a very large scale off the west coast. The people who formerly operated in the Cornish mackerel fisheries and before that operated in the North Sea have now turned their attention to our west coast. The greatest industrial fishing nation in the world is reputedly Denmark, and I am told they are catching enormous quantities of blue whiting in the Porcupine Bank. Those are all within our 200 mile limit.

It seems incomprehensible that we can have foreigners catching huge quantities of fish while our fishermen are not equipped to utilise the same fishing grounds. The fish caught in those areas are being processed and are being sold back to us either as tinned or packaged fish or fishmeal. It is quite obvious that some of this processed fish is returning here as part of the £6 million processed fish we import each year as well as fishmeal and animal foodstuffs. I do not know if a figure has yet to be put on the amount of animal foodstuffs which originates from the fish which we import.

It is obvious that the fish are there. The declaration by the EEC of a 200 mile limit whether it is for Ireland, Britain, Denmark, France or any place else has had beneficial results and has meant that the fish stocks around our coasts have been greatly replenished over the past five years. Our fishing stocks had become very depleted by the Dutch in particular, the French with their small mesh nets, the Spanish with similar nets, the Russians with their factory ships and huge catching powers and their purse seine netting.

The Irish fishing industry was in the trough of despair about five years ago but is now arriving back at the situation where the fish are there to be caught but the price is being grossly depressed because of imports from third countries. Many of those imports are being processed and frozen by our EEC partners. When the good quality fresh fish comes on the market those people deliberately depress the price by saying to the fishermen. "We will take this at the price we quote and if you do not accept this we will sell the processed fish and you can go to blazes". That is the type of threat used against our fishermen by large international concerns who have been importing on an unprecedented scale from third countries who have fish to spare. It will take hard work and tough bargaining by the Minister for Fisheries at the EEC negotiation table to see that this stops.

We have the fish supplies now but the fishermen are not getting a just reward. I have never seen more fishermen in financial trouble than there are at present. I would like to see the Minister doing something about it. It is sad to see in the BIM Report which was issued last week that France caught more fish off the south coast of Ireland than we did ourselves. They caught 27,000 tons for 1977. Next in line came the Dutch with 21,000 tons caught off the south coast of Ireland. This is the Celtic Sea at our own back door. Next came Spain with 17,000 tons. The Spanish are not even members of the EEC and they caught more than the Irish fleet, who caught a mere 16,000 tons off our south coast.

We should be the primary fishcatchers in Europe because together with Britain we have the bulk of the EEC fisheries waters. I ask the Minister to see that the development of our fisheries is uniform in every respect. It is no good our having the fish if we cannot catch them, and we cannot catch them unless we have the harbour facilities and the boats. After we have caught them we must have the processing facilities, and this area has not been developed. Fianna Fáil in their manifesto said that they would develop processing facilities but there has not been any development. I have seen a number of processing centres in this country close down and I have not seen any new ones. A plant for Youghal to employ 250 people has been planned for the past two years and last week I read in The Cork Examiner that the plans have been shelved and it is not going ahead. I do not see any new effort to provide processing facilities. It is a national disgrace that the fish are there and we are not in a position to catch them or to sell them. They are having to be dumped physically on an increasing scale because of third country imports. The fishermen are becoming despondent because they are getting give-away prices. They are getting the same price for their fish now as they were getting in 1973-1974, whereas their costs have doubled or trebled. The cost of boats, gear and fuel has multiplied. We are slowing down on this job. I appeal to the Minister to see that there be a rational development of fisheries in every regard and that the fishing industry does not go to the wall. If that type of importing is allowed to continue there is no future for the fishing industry in this country.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I considered that this Bill was a fishery harbour Bill but it is no harm to have a rather comprehensive discussion on the fishing industry such as I understand is taking place. My first plea to the Minister will be centred around my own constituency of Cork South-West. We have developed Castletownbere Harbour as a major fishery harbour and we hope to move along to Schull this year. I want to make a particular plea for Union Hall and Baltimore. Union Hall could be described as a major fishery centre in this country and for years and years they have been crying for improvements to the pier and harbour there. I am making a special plea to Deputy Power, Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, that he will try to have some finance made available for the development of Union Hall pier. A similar case can be made for Baltimore. Then we have numerous small piers and harbours all around the coast for which the State makes available grants of 75 per cent and the councils give grants of 25 per cent subject to maintenance by the county council subsequently. We would require more moneys for such smaller schemes. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is this concluding at 1.30 p.m.?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not, but we will adjourn at 1.30 p.m. to take the Electoral Bill. After the Electoral Bill we will come back to this again. It depends upon what time the Electoral Bill will take on Committee.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I would like to know also whether the money allocation for harbour development is expended. I recall that for some years allocations for harbour development remained unspent. In one year as much as 60 per cent of the total allocation was never expended and went back to the Exchequer again. Therefore, in the Book of Estimates figures were set down for harbour development which were never, to my mind, meant to be expended. It would be no harm for us to have information not only of the allocations in past years but of actual sums expended.

I want to complain also about the problems of selling fish. There is an obligation on the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry to try to help people who have problems in selling fish. I know one fish merchant in Castletownbere who has had on his hands for months more than £100,000 worth of fish that he cannot dispose of. This fish have to be pickled, preserved and so on, and this man was giving good employment in Castletownbere. He was buying the fish from the local fishermen and for the past year he has not been able to sell it. In such circumstances there would be an obligation on the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry to come along and give a helping hand. The Department are in a much better position to find markets abroad than an individual fish merchant. I make a special plea to the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry to try to find a market for this man's fish. It cannot last forever even though it is well pickled and preserved. Unless a market is found, naturally he will go out of business, possibly he will go bankrupt and with his bankruptcy will fall so many jobs in Castletownbere where employment is so scarce.

The next thing I have to say is for God's sake—and seldom I use that expression here—stop dumping of fish. People read in the papers about and see in their locality boxes of fine fish being dumped in the sea. I have raised this here before and it has been raised by other Deputies. I ask Minister Power for Heaven's sake to try to do something to stop that. It can be done and by doing it we can still keep within EEC regulations. Everybody here would like to see this industry being developed, and there is a great future for the fishing industry if it is managed properly and if it gets the attention which it should get at departmental level. I am not reflecting in any way on Deputy Power and his capacity and capability, but I am surprised that the Fianna Fáil Government did not select a member of their party from a maritime constituency who would be associated more closely with particularly sea-fishing people than the present Minister. I feel sure that they could find other berths in the Government that would measure up to Deputy Power's capacity. A Minister who is removed from the sea is at a disadvantage, and it is unfair to him to get that kind of portfolio.

Debate adjourned.