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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 May 1981

Vol. 328 No. 9

Litter Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The main purpose of the Bill is to improve the law relating to littering and, in particular, to strengthen the hand of local authorities in dealing with litter offences by means which include a fine-on-the-spot system and stiffer penalties. The Bill also introduces new provisions relating to abandoned vehicles and unsightly accumulations of disused vehicles and other disused articles.

I am sure it will be agreed that these are areas in which we badly need to improve standards in the interest of the environment and the enjoyment of outdoor life.

The Environment Council, in a report on Litter and the Environment which has been published, described the situation as a national scandal, affecting tourist and development prospects and giving us a bad name abroad. To change the position, as it must be changed, calls for a radical turnabout in public attitudes. It would be consoling to think that litter conditions are the work of a few, or even of a minority. The conditions which confront us all can only come about from widespread carelessness and indifference. Many blame the young, but even casual observation will show that many adults are blameworthy. The Environment Council in its report has recommended that a strengthening of the law should be considered. This seems to me to be an obvious and immediate need and the Bill is designed to meet it.

I hope that this Bill will be non-controversial and that the general principles will get general support from all sides in the House. It is a fairly radical approach to a particularly objectionable problem that reflects badly on us all, and on the country. The Bill contains no magic formula but what I am proposing should go a long way to improve the litter position and ensure a cleaner and more enjoyable environment for everyone. When we come to Committee Stage I will be glad to give full consideration to any positive and worthwhile proposals or amendments which will improve the effectiveness of the Bill and I will make every effort to meet Deputies wishes on this matter. However, if Deputies are considering putting down amendments I would ask them to bear in mind the limited scope and purpose of the Bill. The limited scope is intentional. Work in reviewing the statutory provisions relating to other environmental and nuisance-type matters is under way in my Department and I envisage further legislation in due course. It would not be appropriate to include in this Litter Bill provisions to deal with problems in those other areas.

There has been a noticeable worsening in recent years in regard to littering and there is no reason to suppose that this trend will alter unless firm action is taken to bring about change. Conditions are especially bad in the urban areas — the bigger the area the worse the conditions generally. But littering is not merely an urban problem. In the countryside too, and everywhere people congregate for entertainment or recreation, litter mars the scene. Scenic areas, picnic places and beaches are scattered with consumer debris—paper, plastic, tins, glass and all the rest. Another serious aspect of the problem is the extent of roadside dumping of rubbish in suburban areas, on the outskirts of towns and even in the countryside.

In these matters we seem to have neither sense nor sensibility. We should be able to do better, and we must, in the future. Nobody gains from littering. The entire community suffers when the habitat is degraded. It is bad for the morale of people that they should be constantly confronted by litter and dirt as they go about their daily business. Neither are such conditions an attractive setting for enterprise and economic advancement. It is not surprising that litter and related conditions are among the most common causes of complaint by tourists and visitors.

Abandoned cars which disfigure the landscape in many areas are an environmental eyesore as well as a resource loss since scrap-metal can be recycled. A related problem is that of unsightly accumulations of disused vehicles or other disused articles — household, agricultural or industrial — in prominent locations along important roads or in scenic areas. I am sure that all Deputies can readily call such situations to mind — sites on which disused cars or other vehicles, abandoned vehicles, old cookers, washing machines and the like; ancient tractors, cranes and other agricultural or industrial plant are kept, under conditions in which they constitute a serious blot on the landscape, or a prominent eyesore. They may be intended for disposal as scrap or for use as spares. It is recognised that these are legitimate and important purposes. But it is reasonable to expect that some account will be taken of the environmental impacts and some effort made to minimise the adverse implications for the local community as well as for tourists and visitors. With a little thought and a small amount of effort the worse effects of many of these sites could easily be avoided. The Bill contains provisions enabling local authorities to deal with these conditions.

I believe that the litter problem must be tackled at the local level mainly and that the local authorities should be the principal agencies for dealing with it and for encouraging the necessary community interest and support. In line with this approach there will be a duty on all local authorities under the Bill to take measures for the prevention, reduction and the removal of litter. Apart from collection and disposal work, the local authorities will be empowered to encourage and assist public participation and to undertake publicity and educational measures of an advisory nature. These are very positive and very important powers, but it would be quite wrong to regard litter as simply a matter with which local authorities have to deal. This problem will not be overcome by legislation alone or by local authority action alone. The problem will be overcome when ordinary people decide that they prefer clean conditions to littered conditions in public places and are prepared to put the required effort into bringing about the necessary changes. The influence of parents, of schools and of community organisations of all kinds in supporting and complementing the efforts of the statutory bodies, and indeed in pursuing their own initiatives, will be of decisive importance. With this in mind I have recently asked local authorities to promote campaigns of environmental care and improvement, seeking maximum co-operation and involvement from local community interests. I will also be presenting a new environmental award for the area making the best response to the proposed campaigns.

Under the Bill local authorities will be empowered to facilitate waste recycling. Recycling from waste is a complex and uncertain business. It is not directly a local authority function and local authorities cannot be expected to commit public funds to costly recovery schemes of doubtful viability. There are, however, areas in which they may be in a position to assist recycling by the private sector in the course of their waste collection and disposal activities. A number of local authorities are co-operating—for example, in the operation of deposits at which waste oil may be deposited for recycling. There may be scope, depending on the local circumstances, for assisting in arrangements for the recovery of waste paper, glass or other materials. All local authorities have been asked to designate locations for the disposal of worn-out vehicles and other scrap metal with a view to its collection for recycling. Under the Bill there will be an obligation on all local authorities to arrange for the provision of such places, whether alone or in co-operation with one another.

The littering offence as defined in the Bill is a re-enactment in extended form of the provision in the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. The main additions — and they are important ones — are that littering caused in the course of carrying on a trade or in loading, transporting, unloading or otherwise handling or processing any substance, material or thing is now specifically included. There can be a lot of trouble in pinning down a responsible party where litter is caused by disposal of refuse from a vehicle. The Bill provides that, where a vehicle is involved, the registered owner or other person having use of it at the time will be guilty of an offence apart from the guilt of anyone else.

At present the maximum fine applicable on conviction for a littering offence is £10. The provision has not proved a deterrent. This is partly because of the impact of inflation on the fine but partly also because of the lenient view which the courts have tended to take of litter offences, as reflected by the imposition in many cases of a nominal penalty. The frustrating experience of some local authorities under the existing law is reflected in a resolution adopted last year by Dublin Corporation calling for an increase in the penalty to £1,000. This may be too high, but certainly the time has come for a more serious view to be taken all round of littering and this should be reflected in the penalty provision and, hopefully, in its application.

It takes very little effort or cost for the individual to avoid littering; to put litter in a bin, or to take it home, or to a dump. But once litter is dropped, or rubbish discarded, the cost of collection and disposal—the cost to the public who must pay for it through taxes — is substantial. The polluter pays principle requires that the person polluting pays the cost of remedying the pollution. This has to be borne in mind when it comes to considering the appropriate level of penalty for litter offences. The new limit which I am proposing is £500. This is maximum penalty. A litter offence may range from dropping a wrapper in the street to dumping a lorry load of rubbish in an amenity area. It will be a matter for the courts to fit the penalty to the offence in a particular case.

I will stress at this point that we are dealing with littering as distinct from legal disposal of litter-type material. Provision is made in the Bill to allow for the deposit of materials in suitable receptacles for disposal, as well as deposits in connection with recycling, provided reasonable care is taken to prevent the creation of litter.

Waste disposal is a separate matter and is now governed by regulations under the European communities Act. Infringement of the regulations in disposing of waste is an offence with liability to a maximum fine on conviction of £600.

As I have already mentioned, local authorities will have a duty to take measures to prevent, reduce and remove litter. It is just as important that occupiers should keep free of litter any land to which the public have access, or land where the litter would be seen from public areas. The Bill provides for this.

Much litter can occur in the immediate vicinity of business premises. I think it is reasonable to expect that persons engaged in businesses should keep the footpath and immediate environs of their premises free of litter—as indeed is done in shopping centres and by many individual shopkeepers. This is a problem that may be greater in some areas than others and is one where local knowledge and conditions should be considered. Under the Bill local authorities will have power to make by-laws requiring occupiers, or specified classes of occupiers, or those in specified areas, to keep the immediate environs, as defined in the Bill, free from litter. I would hope, indeed, that the business community would go further especially in the case of shops and premises which are a direct source of street litter by providing suitable accommodation for the litter which they generate and by posting signs to encourage people to use the accommodation. My Department have already written to various trade organisations seeking the co-operation of their members in this matter.

The prosecution of litter offences through the courts is costly and time consuming for local authorities. To ease the difficulties and to facilitate more speedy and more effective enforcement, the Bill makes provision for a fine-on-the-spot system. Under this system an offender may be given a notice by a litter warden employed by the local authority and would have 21 days in which to pay a fine in the local authority office. The fine initially will be £5 but this may be adjusted by regulation. If the fine is paid there will be no prosecution .

It will be a separate offence for a person to obstruct a litter warden or to refuse to give a proper name and address when asked for it. Such a person will also be liable to arrest without warrant by a member of the Garda Síochána. These are necessary provisions to ensure the co-operation of suspected offenders with litter wardens. I would stress that no one will be obliged actually to pay a fine. If a person who receives a fine-on-the-spot notice would prefer to take his chance in court he may exercise an option in that direction simply by failing to pay the fine wthin the prescribed period. However, I think that most offenders having caused an offence and being caught in the act will prefer to pay the find rather than go to court.

Littering, as I have said, is primarily a local problem and it is right that there should be a degree of local discretion and some room for experimentation as to the most appropriate and effective enforcement procedures to adopt in the local circumstances. It will, therefore, be left to each local authority to decide whether to apply the fine-on-the-spot system in their area, or whether to deal with offenders by way of court prosecution alone.

There may be reservations, which I can understand, about an extension in the policing role of local authorities. There are practical difficulties as well in applying a fine-on-the-spot system to littering which do not arise, for example, with car parking offences. I have taken full account of these considerations. I believe the stage has been reached when most people want effective action to be taken to deal with this problem. I believe that the proposed system can make an important contribution in that direction, that it is a fair and reasonable system and that it will have the support of the general public.

I turn now to abandoned vehicles. I have mentioned that local authorities will be obliged to provide place where vehicles and other metal scrap may be abandoned. There will be no excuse in future for abandoning those in unauthorised places. The Bill makes it an offence to abandon a vehicle on land without the occupier's consent. Provision is made for the removal of abandoned vehicles from land if the occupier consents or does not object and for their disposal in accordance with specified procedures. These provisions do not apply to vehicles abandoned on public roads or car parks which can be dealt with under existing road traffic legislation.

The Bill makes provision also for dealing with disused vehicles or other disused articles if it is in the interests of amenity or of the environment of an area. This could arise, for example, because of their unsightly condition or arrangement and their prominence. Very often the necessary improvement in these situations can be brought about by relocating or rearranging the vehicles or articles or by providing suitable screening or fencing. Local authorities will be enabled to deal with such conditions by arrangement with the occupier or the person keeping the vehicles or articles and on terms to be agreed. Alternatively, the local authority may serve notice requiring specified steps to be taken including, if necessary, the removal of the vehicles and other articles. There is provision for a right of appeal against such a notice to the District Court. The local authority will have power to enforce a notice which is in operation and may recover costs and expenses. It will be an offence not to act on a notice from a local authority or to obstruct the local authority if they are enforcing a notice. Procedures are laid down for the recovery by the owner of the vehicles or articles removed and, if they are not reclaimed, for their disposal by the local authority.

The use of land for the keeping of disused vehicles and the like is, of course, subject to planning permission and it is the job of the planning authority, if permission is being given, to see that any necessary conditions are imposed and are enforced. It would be inappropriate that such a decision should be capable in effect of being set aside by action under this Bill. Provision is made to avoid this kind of conflict arising. In these cases a planning permission if it exists and is being observed will prevail.

The powers which the Bill will confer on local authorities regarding abandoned vehicles or disused vehicles and other articles will greatly improve their capacity for securing the removal of eyesores and improving the quality of the environment in urban and rural areas. In all cases where offences occur under the Bill, other than the fine-on-the-spot system, there will be a maximum fine of £500. I believe that this figure is fully warranted considering the extent of the problem that now exists.

I have explained the context in which I am putting forward this Bill and the main provisions. I am well aware that there are other ways in which our environmental legislation needs to be improved and modernised. I have already mentioned that work in reviewing these needs and in preparing proposals for further legislation is being stepped up in my Department. I believe that this Bill, confined as it is to litter and certain related problems, is not alone well worthwhile in its own right but is urgently needed to deal with the problems which are immediate and should be tackled without further delay. The Bill is in the nature of a first instalment of new environment legislation and I have confidence in commending it to the House in that spirit.

While all of us recognise that litter is a major problem, it is difficult to sound meaningful for 13 pages of a script on the subject and it certainly would be beyond my capacity. Therefore, I do not propose to equal the length of time the Minister has taken to rearrange the litter of the country for the benefit of the environment.

The Minister referred to the main difficulties encountered by local authorities in this matter. Deputy Tully stated that essentially the previous Bill was a Committee Stage Bill. I am inclined to agree with him and I think that this Bill would benefit even more by discussion on Committee Stage rather than by a general Second Stage discussion.

All of us agree that litter despoils the environment. It is essential that local authorities, or whatever group is given the task of dealing with the problem, should be given real powers of control. The Bill introduces the concept of on-the-spot fines on individuals who dispose of litter in a casual and personal way and it also introduces a rather complicated procedure for the removal, storage and eventual disposal of abandoned cars mainly on property adjacent to the roadside.

The on-the-spot fine proposal in the Bill is quite wrong. The figure should be specified in the Bill. I appreciate that the Minister will have power to vary the fine from time to time. If, after all these years we have come to the conclusion that one of the deterrents to be employed to prevent people from throwing away sweet wrappers, cigarette packets, and so on, is an on-the-spot fine, we are deluding ourselves and frustrating the local authorities if we ask them to impose an on-the-spot fine of £5. The fine should be such that a person will think twice before disposing of a sweet wrapper or a cigarette packet by throwing it away. If you are unlucky enough to do that while a litter warden is in the vicinity an on-the-spot fine of £5 is not sufficient.

People who visit foreign countries are very conscious of the fact that if they throw something on the streets they are liable to be fined £50 or £100. They are very much aware of the fact that there is a monetary penalty. This intrudes into their consciousness and has an effect on the manner in which they conduct themselves in the public streets. The £5 fine included in the Bill will not have that effect. While I welcome the concept of an on-the-spot fine, it is a cod to suggest that it should be £5.

I want to draw an analogy between the on-the-spot fine being introduced for littering and the on-the-spot fine for motor car parking offences. I know there has been some change in the recent past, but great numbers of people opt not to pay the on-the-spot fine for motor parking offences because of the length of time it takes before the charge comes up in court and because of the fine liable to be imposed by the court. It is in the interest of the offender to allow the proceedings to go to court rather than to pay the on-the-spot fine.

The onus of proof is on the prosecuting authority. The personal appearance of the individual in court very often seems to influence the level of the fine now imposed for car parking offences. It is difficult for the local authority to prove the case. The litter warden who, presumably, will be the chief witness for the prosecuting authority will have to have almost total power of recall of the incident which will be one only of hundreds of incidents as opposed to the supposedly clear recollection on evidence of the offender. These all point to the fact that it is very much in the offender's interest to allow a court case to ensue, if it always ensues which is probably unlikely.

If we are to have an on-the-spot fine it must be at such a level that it will be a deterrent. People will have to realise that harsh and all as it may appear to be, it will be matched or even higher if they are found guilty in court. The Minister mentioned the level of fines which might be appropriate. He mentioned the frustration of Dublin Corporation last year when they suggested that there should be fines of £1,000 on people causing litter problems. In this Bill there is a fine of £500 following conviction in court. That would be the maximum amount which the courts could impose.

The Minister touched upon another very real problem. When legislation is enacted, penalties for offences are matters for the court to implement. It is fair to say that, in prosecutions by local authorities, generally the courts are inclined to the view that this is bureaucracy bearing down upon the unfortunate individual. I cite the example experienced so often by local authorities when court proceedings are taken in relation to planning offences under the planning code. Especially in cases where individuals are being prosecuted rather than corporate bodies, in the main the court sides with the individual and appears to take the view that the local authority would be better off getting on with the job and providing services rather than harassing individuals.

That has been the experience of local authorities over the years. If one accepts that, if a maximum penalty is provided in the legislation a minimum penalty must also be provided. If the court finds on the evidence presented that the person has committed the offence, they are not given the discretion of fining the offender a nominal £1 or a fine which is so derisory that it involves a considerable financial loss for the local authority and so puny that in real terms the law is brought into disrepute.

In the area of litter control and in certain other aspects of the local government code, the fines set are such that the courts regularly impose fines of 50p in certain areas. This derides the legislation and the attempts by the local authorities to bring any order into the situation. It can also mean a severe financial imposition on the local authority. The appearance in court of the law agents, the administrative personnel, and the litter warden, and the notice of proof of the serving of the summons will probably mean that the case will cost the local authority a minimum of £100. It is quite conceivable that it might cost well in excess of that. In the event of the person being found guilty, if the fine is to be as minimal as £1 or £2 it is not an encouragement to the local authorities to enforce the law. That is one of the difficulties in relation to the area of litter control at present. There are areas within several different Acts on local government that could be implemented. There is no incentive to local authorities to try to carry out an increased level of litter control if the results are to be similar to the sort of outcome that has occurred in the courts in recent years.

I strongly suggest that, if there is to be a maximum fine set for the courts to impose, those fines be only imposed in cases of flagrant and deliberate violation; but there must also be a minimum fine because otherwise in certain cases it would be in the interests of commercial operators to continue to litter. If there is not a minimum fine imposed after a case has had to be adjourned on a number of occasions before a conviction was obtained and a fine of a few pounds was imposed, we will get a succession of convicted persons leaving the court and mocking officers of local authorities who have gone to the trouble of taking the prosecution. Unless that aspect of the Bill is strengthened there will not be any real improvement.

The Minister's suggestion that business people be obliged to keep tidy the area around their premises is fair and reasonable, but in return for that the Minister should examine the refuse collection service operated by local authorities because in many instances local authorities only operate a domestic refuse collection service. They are not providing a service for people in business. That has two disadvantages. A business person might try to dispose of the refuse by burning it on the premises which often leads to complaints by neighbours in the immediate vicinity or one can have the regular dumping of business refuse, especially refuse from shops, around the adjoining countryside. That happens because local authorities are not providing a refuse collection service for businesses. The comprehensive element of refuse collection ought to be examined.

I agree with the Minister's suggestion that the main area upon which we should concentrate is the instilling in the general public of an awareness of the need for litter control. It is an area in which we are particularly poor in attending to. One of the most positive ways in which attention to tidy areas can be promoted is through local authorities holding annual tidy district competitions. The local authority of which I am a member in recent years endeavoured to introduce additional categories into the tidy districts competition, which started originally as a competition to encourage housing estates, villages and more rural areas of the country to compete for fairly handsome cash prizes which would be used in turn for the further improvement of their area. That has now been widened and in the last number of years a category for the best presented shopping centre has been produced as has also a scheme of awards for the best commercial petrol station and for the best presented industrial premises. The concept of local authorities introducing incentive competitions such as those, catering for as many categories as possible, so as to encourage traders and those in business to become actively involved with residents in the presentation and tidiness in the areas is to be welcomed and encouraged. The main area in which we should be endeavouring to bring about a consciousness of the need for litter control is within our schools. The onus there falls on the local and educational authorities to bring about among school children a greater awareness of the need for litter control. I welcome the Minister's proposals in that regard.

I accept the remarks of the Minister with regard to the collection of motor vehicles which are abandoned and the temporary storing of them for scrap. That will be an encouragement towards the concept of recycling. However, we need to realise that as the situation stands at present most of the recycling procedures are still enormously costly in comparison to other methods of disposal. There is quite a lot of misapprehension about the relative amount of merit in financial terms in this area. In relation to the definition of vehicle in the Bill, I note that it includes part of a vehicle or an article on a vehicle which cannot operate at that time. The Minister refers to items such as old cookers or washing machines that might be stored in areas on the outskirts of town, but I wonder how well they will be covered. The definition of vehicle should be extended to include any metal object of any type which is being displayed on the outskirts of towns.

This is a technical Bill, as the Minister pointed out, which deals only with a small area of what is a real problem. The problem is rather mundane and dull for people to be expected to speak on, to take an interest in or to have a consciousness of. Yet the extraordinary thing is that when an area is litter free and well presented it is highly commended by the public in general. I am afraid that the same people when they are invited to join a tidy towns committee do not do so. Such committees are the smallest of all the representative groups politicians meet in the course of their travels. They are the flag carriers in most towns, but yet they are the smallest committees. In many towns that I know such committees have fallen by the wayside with a monotonous degree of regularity over the years. More support should be given to such committees who are endeavouring to improve the appearance of their areas. The Legislature needs to give support to such voluntary groups.

The Legislature should also give support to local authorities because they feel they have not got that support or the support of the courts. They feel that in general they are fighting a losing battle against litter control. They are criticised for its proliferation and are not assisted in taking effective measures to prevent it. Insofar as the Bill will help this situation, I welcome it, but its provisions could be improved on Committee Stage.

I assume the Minister would like to get the Second Stage by 7 o'clock and because of that I shall be as brief as possible. The Bill is very necessary but I was surprised that the Minister left out a lot of things I would like to have seen dealt with, particularly bill posting. Coming up to election time that is probably not the right thing to deal with, but it must be dealt with because that type of litter annoys those of us who try to keep our countryside clean. We find that people have no hesitation in putting posters everywhere including on local authority signs and so on. This must be dealt with and I ask the Minister, if he does not intend to include it in new legislation, to deal with it. I include also that scrawling on walls which has reached the stage where it is really outrageous. At one period I got all local authorities to clean the walls in their areas and I suggest that the Minister might do the same again because we are coming into some kind of tourist season with walls which are not an attraction to tourists and which annoy people who live here.

I ask also that something special be done by local authorities with regard to refuse collections. Deputy Boland referred to the once-weekly collection from householders only. We are in the unfortunate position of having had a once-weekly collection for householders for very many years and because of the severe cuts which occurred this year in Government grants our local authority have reverted to a fortnightly collection. This has meant that all over County Meath one can now find bags of rubbish thrown on the side of the road. It is outrageous and people should not do it. If they made a little effort they would be able to put the rubbish somewhere for the extra week and then get it carried away but unfortunately they do not do that. Beside villages and towns people who have recently bought houses have very little ground except a small lawn and they are unable to find a place to dispose of their refuse. They will put it in a bag and when they go out early in the morning, open the door of their car and dump their refuse outside the village. This is not improving the area.

With regard to bills and posters there should be a law which insists that those who want to put them up should put them on cardboard and tie them to poles from which they could be easily taken down. They should not be stuck on everything so that they are there for generations to come. I do not know how people who stand for election and never get a vote like to see their pictures there for years, and this has happened.

The question of cars has to be dealt with. All sorts of old vehicles and rubbish like that should be taken away. Who is to do it is the problem. I knew of one gentleman who was collecting them and he had to be paid £7 per car by the local authority for taking the cars away. Perhaps he was a philanthropist and not making any money on it himself, but somehow I doubt that. There should be some way in which local authorities even would be encouraged to put these cars in a central area. There should be some legislation which insists that those who want to keep car graveyards, as they are generally referred to, should keep them surrounded by a wall or fence of some kind which would render them invisible from the road. Nothing looks worse than old cars stuck here, there and everywhere, in fields and up beside houses and towns. They make a show of the whole place.

The Minister is on the right track. Perhaps he has not gone far enough but, as Deputy Boland says, we will try to help him when it comes to Committee Stage to make this a better Bill. Whether the cars were abandoned was one matter which arose in Dublin a few years ago. The other way of dealing with it is that if a car is on the street and it is not taxed — it is wrong to say "taxed" now even though the application form says "taxed"——

Registered, I think.

If it is not taxed or insured, then prosecute the person who claims to own it. If the person does not appear, dump the car. This is one way of clearing the streets of those cars. My three points are first, local authorities collecting refuse will have to collect it in a reasonable space of time. Secondly, there should be a pretty heavy fine for anybody caught dumping litter anywhere, and it is easier to catch such people in the countryside. In a city or town it is difficult to know who dropped the litter, no matter how vigilant the warden is. It is not easy to prove who dropped the cigarette package or something else in a city or town. It is not easy to follow people, get their names and addresses and arrange either to collect a fine from them or prosecute them. I am all in favour of forcing people who have not got the decency to dispose of their litter properly to do it at the expense of being fined. I have a lot more to say, but I will let the Minister in.

I am very grateful to the Deputies for the welcome extended to this Bill. As I said in my opening remarks, if there is a constructive suggestion made for improvement I am more than willing to look at it on Committee Stage.

Deputy Boland spoke of the on-the-spot fine and whether the level of £5 is sufficient. I have given a lot of thought to this and I have had a lot of discussion with my officials and others on it. As it is the first introduction of an on-the-spot fine with regard to litter I had to get the balance right between disincentive to pay and go to the courts and a ludicrously low level of fine of, say, £1 or £2 as a first stage to see how the procedure operates without clogging up the courts. It is not my desire that these fines will not be paid and that they will go to court. I am trying to encourage people to pay the fines. Really I am trying to encourage them not to drop litter at all. An argument can be made for increasing the fine to £10 or £15. However, we can discuss it at greater length on Committee Stage. As far as the discretion of the court is concerned on the level of fine from £1 to £500, I take fully the point made by Deputy Boland that it would be desirable if a scale could be set down in relation to the amount of litter dropped on the streets or in the areas around the edges of towns. Again, it is something that we can discuss on Committee Stage.

With regard to the refuse collection, I accept fully the need for what the two Deputies spoke of, that is some provision for the commercial sector, shopkeepers and others of a collection system. Regarding the car graveyards, included in the Bill is provision for fencing and for general beautification of the site. On the definition of "vehicle" taking in such things as the cookers that Deputy Boland spoke about, I assure him that that is already included in another section of the Bill.

This is the first step along a legislative line of improving the environment in this country for the benefit of the people of this country and of the tourists who visit our land, but specifically for our own benefit and that of our young population. Too often the littering of the streets is wrongly attributed to the young people, and they have a very important role to play. In any event, we can encourage them and the older generation also to remove this curse and scandal of litter from our society. This is something for which we should all strive. I thank the Deputies for the welcome they have extended to the Bill and for giving me Second Stage this evening.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 19 May 1981.
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