We investigated it. I am sure the Deputy would agree with me that we would not want to see any particular grouping having a strong opinion against it and people staying away from voting for that particular reason or any other reason. We will be dealing with the rights of other people to vote later on in the evening. We will also be dealing with voting for the handicapped and disabled later and I will leave it over until then. I will deal with the dual mandate shortly. A point was made about spoiled votes and Deputy Fitzsimons said I suggested Irish people were not sophisticated in their voting habits. I would like to point out that on the last occasion when the European elections were held local elections were held on the same day. It meant three ballot papers in some urban city areas. This resulted in an increase in the number of spoiled votes. This was three times the number we find in Dáil elections. I do not accept that this had to do completely with confusion. I know that anybody who looked at the votes being counted found various suggestions written on them about the candidates which disqualified those votes. A lot of the increase in the number of spoiled votes could be put down to the fact of trying to vote for 27 candidates or more in an urban area, 19 in a county council area and 12 to 15 in a European election which was a bit cumbersome. When so many people leave their voting to the last hour or one and-a-half hours of the closure time it means a type of EI Salvadorean election where everybody rushes in at the last minute demanding voting papers while other people take up to ten minutes to fill out their voting papers.
With regard to the turn-out being low because the local elections are not being held. I hold the view that if the European elections are to be seen as totally European they should not need the crutch of some other elections to bring out the electorate. It is up to candidates in the forthcoming European elections and those supporting candidates to ensure that people are motivated by the campaign and that people are got out to vote. The issues in Europe are very important to us. This week we had the super-levy issue. This means we must have representation in Europe of the highest calibre and it is important not only for farmers but for people in every part of the country to see that the Irish representation sent to Europe has a very strong mandate. I believe we will see a satisfactory turn-out so that the members who are sent out to Europe know that they have the backing of the vast majority of the population.
Deputy De Rossa said that only 50 per cent of the people turned out to vote in a recent by-election. That does not take in any way from the qualification of the person elected but it is satisfactory if we see a good turn-out. I would not like to feel that the turn-out for the European elections depended on some other election issue which brought people out and then they voted for the European candidates. It is quite likely this election will stand on its own feet and people will decide on Irish issues which have a European dimension. I hope there will be a very large turn-out on the day.
As I indicated in opening the debate, it is necessary for us to review our existing arrangement for filling casual vacancies in the Assembly because of the reservations expressed about it by the Credentials Committee of the Assembly. There are particular difficulties in devising a method of filling casual vacancies which will be compatible with our unique electoral system and at the same time will be seen to be fully in keeping with the requirement that representatives to the Assembly be elected by direct universal suffrage.
The two methods of filling vacancies which we are familiar with in this country are by-elections in the case of Dáil vacancies and co-option in the case of vacancies in local authority membership. Neither of them is really suitable in the context of Assembly elections. For this reason we had to look elsewhere for a solution. I make no extravagant claims about the arrangement proposed in the Bill but I think it does represent a reasonable solution in the particular circumstances in which we are placed. It is a fair system, it will preserve the proportional representation of the parties as established by the democratic vote of the people at the elections. It will be simple to operate and allows a fair degree of flexibility. On these grounds I can be confident in recommending it to the House.
Deputy Blaney raised the question of whether the proposed method will be acceptable to the appropriate European authorities. He hinted fairly strongly that there was a possibility that the Credentials Committee might take the view that the arrangements we are not proposing might not meet in full the committee's original reservations. He pointed out that one of the factors in the situation is that, by the time any vacancy falls to be filled under the arrangements we are now proposing, a new Credentials Committee and, indeed, a new Parliament will be in office.
I want to tell the House that in the preparation of the present proposals appropriate soundings were taken at European level. Arising from these approaches I have no reason to anticipate that our arrangements will not be acceptable. Indeed, there is reason to believe that our proposals will be welcomed as a genuine and conscientious response to the reservations originally expressed by the committee.
Looking at our proposals objectively it is difficult to see how fault could be found with them from the democratic viewpoint. They are clearly in line with the concept of direct elections. The replacement candidates will be formally nominated. The lists will be formally published so that the names of the replacement candidates will be known to the electorate. Electors will be aware that in voting for a particular candidate they will also be expressing approval for the relevant list of replacements. The concept of replacement candidates is not new. It has been used in one form or another in individual member states of the EEC. It is therefore a method with which many of our European colleagues will be familiar and is without doubt compatible with the concept of direct elections.
The question of having the names of the replacement candidates on the ballot papers was raised by Deputy Manning and others. What is involved here is not just a technical problem. Basically it is the practical consideration of keeping the ballot paper as simple as possible from the elector's point of view. Already our electors are required to indicate fairly sophisticated choices. The elector's role is acknowledged to be far more substantial under our system than under other electoral methods. Deputy Manning has a wide knowledge of electoral systems and I am sure he is aware that in some instances not even the names of all the candidates, let alone any substitute candidates, appear on the ballot paper. I am thinking particularly of the German parliamentary elections. Even in that situation, of the first names on the list — and about five names appear on the whole list — some rarely take up their seats in the European Parliament but rather pass them on to somebody lower down on the list. Therefore in my view our system is much fairer than that. I do not see that our proposed arrangements can be faulted on this ground. It is important that we preserve a sense of proportion: we are, after all, dealing, not with the election itself but with arrangements for filling casual vacancies which may or may not arise.
Deputy Molloy and other Deputies have drawn attention to the proposals in relation to the number of replacement candidates allowed in each constituency. The Bill provides that the upper limit for any replacement candidates' list will be two names more than the number of candidates of the party in the constituency, or a total of three in the case of a non-party candidate. The question of deciding the number of replacement candidates is a matter of judgment. If we set too high an upper-limit we risk creating the possibility of a high turnover of Irish representatives in the Assembly. The House will be aware that individual parties in some of the other member states made it a matter of deliberate policy to rotate their seats in the Assembly. There is no suggestion that any of the parties here would wish to adopt that practice. Nonetheless the practice is undesirable and we should be careful not to create the conditions for it in our legislative provisions. On the other hand, if the limit on the number of replacement candidates were set too low we could be faced with a situation where replacement candidates' lists might be exhausted. This situation, too, would be obviously undesirable. In arriving at a figure for use as a limit we have attempted to reach a compromise between these two extremes. However, there is nothing sacrosanct about the particular limit specified in the Bill. Having regard to what was said here last week and today, I have had another look at the matter and propose to move an amendment on Committee Stage designed to increase the limit from two to four more than the number of candidates of the party in the constituency.
Deputies referred to the fall-back situation described at Section 6 (c). Under this provision, where a list is exhausted or no list has been presented by the party or candidate concerned, the Dáil may select a replacement from another list presented for the constituency. I must emphasise that this situation will arise only if there is an actual vacancy and the party concerned either did not present a list or the list presented by the party is exhausted. Clearly we are talking about a very remote possibility, particularly if the proposal to raise the limit is accepted. Nonetheless it is considered prudent that the law should recognise the possibility and make provision for it. In these particular circumstances — and in these circumstances only — the Dáil may select a replacement candidate from another list for the constituency. I would emphasise that the word used is "may" not "shall". The Dáil will not be obliged to make a selection. It will be open to them to leave the seat vacant. One could visualise a situation where it might be undesirable that our representation in Europe should be weakened because of a vacancy. For this reason it is thought proper to have a fall-back position to meet what is admittedly a rather remote possibility.
Deputies asked for further information on particular aspects of the proposed arrangement for filling vacancies.
Deputy Molloy asked if a candidate may contest more than one constituency at an election to the European Assembly. Section 9 (2) of the 1977 Act provides that a candidate may contest only one constituency. He also inquired about local returning officers. This is covered by Section 14 of the 1977 Act. There is a local returning officer for each county and county borough, that is the appropriate county registrar or sheriff. In effect Euro elections are conducted on the basis of counties and not on Dáil constituencies.
Deputy Molloy also inquired about how the lists would be referred to on ballot papers and what publicity would be given to the lists. In the case of each list, the returning officer will assign an identifying letter or letters to it. The list will be referred to on ballot papers and notices by reference to these letters. It may be expected that the letters assigned to a list will be the initials or abbreviations by which the party is known. In the case of a non-party list the identifying letters are likely to be the initials of the candidate. It must be emphasised that the letters to be assigned will be a matter for the returning officer.
The replacement candidates lists will be published in the Statutory Notice of poll issued by the returning officer in advance of the election. The method of publishing this notice is a matter for the returning officer. In 1979 it was published in the daily newspapers. It is likely that this method will be used again on this occasion. Returning officers will be advised, in addition, to publish it by way of posters displayed throughout the constituency and at the polling stations on polling day.
Questions have also been raised concerning the way in which a replacement candidate is, on the occurrence of a vacancy in the Assembly, deemed elected. On the occurrence of a vacancy the Clerk of the Dáil will write to the party to ascertain who is first on the appropriate list of replacements. This places on the party the onus of certifying that the replacement candidate is eligible and ready to serve in the Assembly. In the case of a non-party vacancy — where no party structure would exist — the Clerk of the Dáil will communicate with the returning officer for the constituency concerned. The returning officer in turn, will contact one or more of the persons named on the appropriate replacement list with a view to ascertaining who, of those eligible and available to serve, is highest on the list. In effect, the onus of giving a certificate to this effect will rest on the replacement candidate in question.
With regard to the verification of ballot paper accounts, the arrangements proposed in the Bill are being provided on the advice of returning officers. They assure me that it would be more convenient if verification were carried out at county or county borough level rather than at Euro constituency level.
The 1977 Act provided that the verification of ballot paper accounts would be carried out at one centre in each of the Euro constituencies. However, as the House will recall, the European elections in 1979 were held on the same day as the local elections and the same ballot boxes were used at the two elections. It was necessary, therefore, to open the ballot boxes in each county and county borough. Provision for this was made in regulations made by the Minister under section 91 of the Electoral Act, 1963 which gives the Minister special powers to enable two or more polls to be taken together. The regulations also provided that in verifying the European ballot paper accounts, the papers were kept face downwards. This represents the net difference between what was done in 1979 and what is proposed now.
Under the Bill, the time for carrying out the verification will be fixed by the local returning officer. I would anticipate that the process will take place on Friday morning after the Thursday election. It is proposed that the verification will be carried out in the normal way, in particular, that the ballot papers will be kept face upwards, and the agents of candidates will, of course, be entitled to attend.
It has been pointed out that this arrangement will enable the agents of the candidates, who will have the right to be present, to make informal assessments as regards the possible outcome of the election. The question has been asked whether there may be a possible conflict between this arrangement and the requirement in the European statute that counting of votes must not commence until voting everywhere is concluded. I must stress that in verifying ballot paper accounts only the numbers of ballot papers found in each ballot box are counted. There is no question of sorting these papers in accordance with the first preferences shown on each of them or of counting the votes marked on the ballot paper for any candidate. I am assured that there is no conflict between the arrangement proposed and the requirement of the European statute which provides that the counting of votes shall not commence until the voting in all member states is completed.