Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Nov 1984

Vol. 353 No. 11

Second Report of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of the Second Report of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: The role of Officers of Customs and Excise in controlling the supply of illegal drugs.

—(Deputy Woods.)

Mr. Hyland

I welcome the publication of the report and I congratulate the chairman, Deputy Woods, and the members of the committee on their dedication and commitment in tackling the very serious drug problem which must be regarded as one of the greatest social evils of our time. A few years ago this problem was associated with urban areas only. Now far too often it manifests itself in rural towns and schools.

It is a problem which is not easily eliminated or contained once outlets of distribution have been established. It is even less easy to safeguard the lives of young people who have been exposed to the drugs scene and who have become even slightly addicted to and dependent on the various forms of drugs which are available. It has often been said that it took us too long to recognise the fact that we had a drug problem. If this is so, it was a very costly mistake and makes our task all the more difficult.

It is important that we face up to the reality and recognise the extent of the problem and that we make adequate resources available to deal with it. We must recognise that this nation of ours has been identified by the international demons — and one cannot think of a stronger word to describe those in the murky underworld of drug trafficking and pushing — as easy prey. They recognise that the social conditions which exist here with high unemployment provide the ideal climate for them to peddle their wares. They recognise that a country with a population as young as ours is a very lucrative market for this illicit trade. I do not know how you can measure the economic cost to the nation and the psychological damage to the community from social evils such as drug addiction. The cost is great. It is a factor which the Minister should take into consideration and try to measure before embarking on purely monetarist decisions and totally ignoring the social issues, as is happening daily in terms of job losses.

It is very likely that the long term cost to the nation could far outweigh the short term economic gain which she is trying to achieve apart altogether from the damage to the individual. This must be our first consideration. The economic drain on the nation's resources in dealing with the problem is great. I urge the Minister to bring more social balance into the economic policies which she proposes to introduce in the future. We must recognise that the Garda and other people upon whom we depend to deal with this problem have to deal with the most professional, dangerous and successful of established criminals around the world whose priority is to establish successful distribution channels for drugs.

I should like to pay a special tribute to the dedication and commitment of the members of the Garda Drugs Squad. Under difficult conditions they have done an extremely good job and we owe them a great debt of gratitude. I make a special plea for greater resources for this important section of our Garda force. Let us give them the manpower and the other resources necessary to enable them to perform their duties professionally and successfully. Let us also give a commitment to implementing the recommendations of this very excellent report.

The success of the Drugs Squad in closing off the internal sources of supply has, unfortunately, only led to an escalation in the import of drugs. The increase in the level of addiction is an indication of the extent and volume of these imports. Therefore, the view contained in the report that officers of Customs and Excise should have an important role to play is valid and should be acted upon.'

The report is correct in identifying and stressing the need to tackle the problem at source. If we can contain and, it is hoped, eliminate the trafficking in and movement of drugs, then we are bound to reduce the incidence of exposure of our young people to the drug scene.

Our geographic position as an island is a help. I do not want to sound a pessimistic note at this stage, but I heard recently of drugs being imported in the hollow frames of agricultural machinery. If that practice were widespread it would be impossible to detect or prevent the importation of very large amounts of drugs.

There is a need to bring the penalties following customs detection into line with those imposed as a result of Garda investigation. I was very pleased to hear the Minister say today that this is an aspect of the drug scene which is being dealt with by him at this time.

I support also the view that a small specialised unit within Customs and Excise should be established for the purpose of drug detection. Again, I was pleased to hear the Minister say that this is being considered and that liaison between the Garda Drugs Squad and the people in Customs and Excise responsible for drug detection would be strengthened and improved.

A matter raised by Deputy Woods and the other members of his committee was the relevance of sniffer dogs for drug detection. It was encouraging to hear the Minister, on a positive note, saying that at present a dog was being trained for this specific purpose. It is true to say that all Members of this House would have a unified approach and a unified commitment to tackling this great social evil which unfortunately is on the increase.

I am sure my dedicated and committed colleague, Deputy Woods, will forgive me if I differ slightly from his views and those of the committee in relation to the emphasis in the report. I agree fully that the implementation of measures against imports is a very vital part of any campaign to deal with the drugs problem.

However, no matter what measures are taken in that regard it is going to be extremely difficult to eliminate totally drug importation.

On the other hand, if we became successful in reducing the demand for drugs, through a proper educational process, the market would automatically decline and trafficking in drugs would be substantially reduced. We are not doing sufficient in the educational field to bring to the notice of young people, particularly those attending post primary schools, the great danger and threat facing them with regard to exposure to the drug scene on leaving school or, indeed, tragically, even while they are still at school.

More resources should be made available to the health boards. I know that it is part of the normal health board programme to try to provide some kind of education and advice in relation to drugs. They have not got adequate resources at present to embark on a full scale, impressive educational programme which would bring home effectively to young people the dangers they are facing.

I recently watched, in the House, a television programme depicting, perhaps crudely, the effects of drug trafficking and drug addiction. For weeks afterwards people throughout the country were still reacting to that programme. They were appalled at what they had seen and it was a very effective programme. Human nature being what it is, you need a concentrated and continuous educational programme to bring the drugs problem to the notice of the people. I appeal to the Minister of State to consider seriously, at Government level, the channelling of an allocation to health boards specifically for the purpose of educating people about the present drugs problem. The success of that type of operation has been demonstrated in relation to the no smoking campaign. It is reasonably true to say that as a result of that campaign there are definitely fewer young people smoking cigarettes now than there were ten years ago. It is a practical example of how successful a consistent educational programme can be in achieving its objective.

I regret that I have not more time to deal with the problem but I know that the Minister of State will convey to the Minister the views which I have expressed.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I shall be as brief as I can and I may not take my full time because I put most of my views in detail to the committee. We have gone through many different reports and like the chairman of that committee, I have taken a particular interest in the various elements of the work of the committee. This report is very important to the committee, the House and the general public. On a recent visit to Scotland Yard, I found that the people there confirmed Garda intelligence that the main source of the drugs that are abused most in this country is Pakistan and to some extent South America. There is a meeting in progress in Dublin today of Foreign Ministers, some from Asia and some from Europe. That sort of meeting would have provided us with the opportunity of taking up the matter on the diplomatic front with those countries who allow the drugs to be grown on their soil in the first place and then to be exported to a country such as this where the livers, sight and lives of the users are being threatened. In many cases the users are hooked deliberately by people who supply heroin in the first instance free of charge so as to bring about the addiction and subsequent pushing. Unless we are prepared to take on this crime at every level, at diplomatic, courts and supply level, we will not combat the problem.

From our experience in London we learned also that, despite the size of the problem here, it is not nearly as big as is the problem in other European capitals. That is not very much consolation to us. We do not want any drug problem but it is an indication of the massive export of misery from these foreign countries to western European countries.

There is a problem between us and the UK in the sense that there is two way trafficking. People who traditionally make their money by way of bank robberies and other crimes are now channelling their funds into drug smuggling. They have so many routes both into and out of the UK and Ireland that detection is difficult. There is both an import and export problem, so to speak. We must pool intelligence and other resources with those of the UK in order to ensure that this element of the problem is tackled. The peddlers can change their routes to operate through the UK into Ireland or through Ireland into the UK.

Another bottleneck area in this context lies within the Judiciary. The task force consisting of Ministers of State recommended to the Government, and the Government agreed, that within the Circuit Court and the District Court there should be appointed a judge to deal with drug offences specifically. However, the proposal has not been adopted so far. It is not my intention to be in any way critical of the Presidents of the Circuit Court and the District Court but I would be failing in my duty if I were not to emphasise the need to put pressure on these distinguished gentlemen in this matter. I would go so far as to say that the House may have to exercise a constitutional role in coming to terms with judges who are not fulfilling their role in this regard — in other words, to remove them from office.

There is a problem in respect of the consistency of sentencing. Within the past few days a man who was found guilty of providing drugs to 12 and 14 year olds was sentenced to five years. Another judge might have sentenced him to two years while yet another might have sentenced him to eight years. There is an urgent need for a judge who will deal specifically with drug cases, who will be fully versed in the law relating to importation and who will know the difference between the various drugs. Some judges do not appear to know the difference between cannabis and heroin. If we are to tackle the problem across the board we must eliminate all bottlenecks and that may mean our exercising our responsibility as legislators and saying to these learned gentlemen of the Judiciary that we have lost patience with them, that if they do not implement the proposal we will have to legislate for it.

I had thought that it was not possible for us to do that but I am informed now by senior Garda sources that it may be possible for us to legislate for a judge in either court to deal specifically with drug offences. I appeal to the House to support the recommendation of the task force in this regard. I trust that in the not too distant future we will be in a position to report to the House on other aspects of the law relating to drugs. This, of course, would involve very much the Department of Finance. The Finance Act, 1982, provided for the taxation of income from illegal sources but there is no provision for the confiscation of assets of persons involved in drug trafficking. The committee may be in a position to report to the House shortly in that connection.

I commend the report.

Mr. Gregory-Independent

I agree with most of what Deputy Mitchell says. However, it is all very well to talk about taking diplomatic action against the countries of origin of illegal drugs but, if we are not prepared to take the most basic steps at home to deal as effectively as possible with the problem, there is not much point in talking about action on the diplomatic front.

I shall be dealing later with some of the issues that have been raised and which relate specifically to the roles of customs officers, but first I should like to express agreement with those speakers who have said that unless we accept the basic problem as being one of social inequity in the major areas of poverty and of disadvantage we will not make much progress. It is in the areas of the greatest poverty that there is most abuse of heroin. Having said that, it is necessary to be realistic and to deal with the circumstances as we find them.

I refer to the introductory remarks of Deputy Woods. He said that there had been a great deal of confusion up to about a year or two ago about the extent of the drug problem in Ireland. I am a little concerned, reading the newspapers in the last few days, that there is still a great deal of confusion over the extent of the drug problem. I will refer specifically to The Irish Times of yesterday which carried a report of a statement by the Deputy Commissioner, Mr. John Paul McMahon. I thought he would have known better. He stated that the level of drug abuse is on the decline. He seemed to base this point of view on the downward trend in drug seizures. Representing an area where there is no shortage of heroin, I can assure the Deputy Commissioner that heroin is on open supply by known individuals. In saying that I do not in any way criticise the Garda Drugs Squad. I have said repeatedly that the number of men and the resources available to the Garda Drugs Squad in contrast to the extent of the problem they are trying to deal with do not allow them any great scope to follow up a great deal of the heroin pushing in Dublin, never mind other areas. To say that the level of drug abuse is on the decline seems to indicate that the Deputy Commissioner is out of touch with those who are trying to deal with this problem.

A few years ago a delegation from the inner city area of Dublin went to Deputy Woods as Minister for Health to tell him about the serious problem in the inner city. At that time that was denied totally by the Department of Health. Then the Medical Social Research Group carried out a survey and showed the enormity of the problem. Today it is not a matter of the inner city area alone. Every major working class area, like Ballymun, Bally-fermot and others, has an alarming increasing heroin problem which is known to the Drugs Squad. The prime suppliers in those areas are known but because of difficulties in catching them in possession many of them are not being apprehended.

Last weekend we had the tragic case in my constituency of a youth of 17 dying from a heroin overdose. That teenager had been an addict since the age of 14 years. More than a year ago we had a report which said that of particular concern to the ministerial task force were young drug abusers in the 12 to 16 age group in the inner city areas for whom no treatment or accommodation was currently available. More than a year later there are still no treatment facilities available and some of them are now dying from heroin abuse.

Referring again to the Deputy Commissioner's statement, it is important that those in authority charged with dealing with the problem should reflect accurately the extent of the problem and should not be making misleading statements, whether it be to the Irish Security Industry Association or to any other body, about the extent of the problem. Statements like that are counter-productive and I am extremely surprised that somebody in such a responsible position would make a statement like that.

He welcomed the establishment of the concerned community groups but he criticised unscrupulous individuals who were infiltrating those groups. The Deputy Commissioner should remember that elsewhere anti-drug workers have been murdered for their pains and that people working in these community groups are putting themselves at risk. I should like to refer to the specific role of customs officers and the facilities available to them. Today the Minister for Finance made a number of statements which are not accurate. I am sure he made them in good faith based on information from the Revenue Commissioners. He said that specialised equipment for the searching of container traffic was now in operation. I would be interested to hear where that is in operation. I was in touch with customs officers today and they are not aware of it.

The basic request for a customs drug group to liaise with the Garda Drugs Squad in matters of surveillance and the gathering of information has been refused or has not been acted on. Although two customs officers have been assigned to deal with drugs in particular, even they are not employed on a full time basis.

The Minister for Finance referred to the fact that fixed facilities for the search of vehicles are adequate at most points of entry. They may be adequate in the eyes of the Revenue Commissioners but there is a major question mark, in the views of customs officers themselves, in regard to the definition of "adequate". Although there are fixed facilities at Dundalk and Monaghan and at major ports like Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Rosslare and Dún Laoghaire, major ports of entry do not have fixed facilities for the search and examination of vehicles.

There is a major contradiction between my statement and that of the Minister for Finance which requires clarification. I regret that I have been denied membership of this or other committees but I should like to raise that matter with the committee. I would ask them to examine the statements made earlier today about the facilities, the modern, supposedly specialised equipment for the search of containers, the fixed facilities of hoists for lifting trucks for the proper searching of containers. There is a whole range of areas I would like to refer to in relation to the heroin problem.

I welcome the report of the committee, as I would welcome any report which highlights the problem. If the report is to be worthwhile it must deal with the basic improvements which have to be made to facilitate customs officers in dealing with the problem. Having listened to the customs officers make their case and to the Minister, there seems to be a serious contradiction between the information given by the Minister and the views of the customs officers. I refer specifically to the areas I have mentioned: the availability of specialised equipment for search and examination, fixed facilities where containers can be examined, manpower and the need for a special drug unit to be set up within the customs service. There is no point in the Government saying they are serious about dealing with the drug problem if they are not prepared to implement those basic measures.

Some speakers referred to the Judiciary. I am on record as criticising the Judiciary in this regard. I find it difficult to speak on the subject without referring again to the apparent inability of some members of the Judiciary to accept the seriousness of the heroin problem. There does not seem to be any consistency in their sentences. They seem to be out of touch as regards the difference between, as Deputy Mitchell said, cannabis and heroin. That undermines the confidence of the community in the Judiciary and has serious implications.

I attempted to put a question to the Minister for Finance in March 1983. My question was if he would instruct the Revenue Commissioners to investigate the ability of known criminals who have no apparent income from any legitimate source and specifically the ability of certain individuals known by the Garda Drugs Squad to be controlling heroin traffic to buy expensive homes and property. At the time I raised the question it was to see if there was any way in which legislation could be introduced to confiscate the property and possessions of persons convicted of major drug offences. I am glad to say that will be the next item on the committee's agenda. I am aware that in Britain they have begun the process of introducing legislation to do that.

I do not share the view that the most effective way of dealing with the heroin problem is at the point of entry of heroin into the country. While it is necessary to do everything possible to stop heroin entering the country, it is unrealistic to believe that it can be done to any major degree. The place to deal with heroin is on the streets of Dublin. We and the Government must realise that and give priority to it. I do not call having a drug squad with 35 members giving priority to this matter. Until the Government accept the seriousness of the problem and give that priority to the Garda we will not be able to deal effectively with the heroin problem in this city.

Mr. Wallace

I am pleased to be associated with the production of this report and I recommend it to the House. In 1980 the extent of drug abuse in Ireland was very little. What there was was confined mainly to cannabis. It is interesting to note that in 1966 only one person was charged with drug offences. By 1979 that number had risen to 594 and 1,800 people were charged with offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977.

Drug abuse is an increasing problem. The increase in the abuse of heroin in Dublin has reached crisis proportions. To compare the position here with other European capitals does not mean anything. We have to deal with the problem that we have. The abuse of heroin escalated rapidly following the Iranian revolution. At that time a large amount of heroin flooded the world markets and a certain amount of it came into Ireland. Suggestions were made that the movement of criminals into the drug scene was largely responsible for the sudden upsurge in drug abuse. That is an oversimplification as there had to be a ready market in existence before it could have taken off at such a pace.

In this connection we must consider the extent to which the general attitude of the community influences drug taking. In Ireland alcohol is the drug of addiction which is socially acceptable. When a person goes out socially he determines how good the night has been by the amount of alcohol he consumed. The night itself is not important but rather the number of pints and half-ones that he put away. For generations alcohol abuse has caused untold misery and economic deprivation. The cost to the State in terms of accidents is enormous. Drug taking exists and has done so for some time in our society.

Deputies may wonder why I referred to alcohol. It is closely linked to the problem of drug taking in the community. It was no surprise that the Medico Social Research Board's survey on drug abuse in Ireland in 1982-83 pointed out how, very often, drug abusers came from families where drink was a problem even though the abusers were not into alcohol. Cigarette smoking invariably was the rule in those families. That is the information given by the Medico Social Research Board. I congratulate Deputy Woods who asked for this survey to be carried out.

The drug problem needs to be tackled urgently. It must be contained and eliminated. People say it cannot be eliminated and that it is with us whether or not we like it. That is a defeatist attitude. The support of the community is needed for those involved in trying to stamp out the problem. This will involve the provision of necessary resources to those who are involved in the prevention of smuggling.

There are now people who are drug addicts and will be so for the rest of their lives. We do not have the facilities to help those people. It was with the intention of reducing the supply of illegal drugs that we concentrated on the role of the customs officers as they are the first line of defence in tackling the supply of drugs. Deputy Gregory said that if we think it starts and finishes there we are wrong. Nevertheless we are an island, hard drugs come into the country and we must use all our resources at air and sea ports to ensure that drugs are kept to a minimum and, if possible, eliminated. I am not underestimating the problem but it is important to emphasise that point.

I was happy to see that action was taken by the Minister for Health by amending the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1984, which was under consideration in the House when this report was produced. These legislative amendments bring the custom service into line with the Garda Síochána, which is as it should be. Deputy Woods dealt with these matters in great detail and I merely want to say that the action of the Minister shows the relevance and usefulness of the committee system.

I consider the provision of a drugs unit within the customs service to be an essential step which must be taken by the Revenue Commissioners. I am not suggesting that it should be a large unit; it should consist of a small organisation with a number of people who can co-ordinate their efforts regarding the problem.

When we went to London we found out that the police, the customs officials and the Home Office have set up a committee which is the overall co-ordinating body to combine the approach to dealing with drugs. Something on those lines should be considered by the Minister to ensure that there is no overlap in this area. These members would be involved in full time, drug related activities and they could liaise with the Garda Drugs Squad and international bodies. They would need special training and advice because there is no doubt that the job of tackling the drug problem will fall on the outdoor staff. The committee does very important work but it is the official at the port of entry who will be in a position to tell us whether the approach is successful. Therefore, a much closer link between all concerned is needed to ensure that success.

There is very good co-operation between customs officers and the Garda Síochána which the Garda Commissioner acknowledged in the annual report for 1983. This co-operation is evident by the extent to which the customs staff seized drugs during 1983. Out of a total of 550 kilograms, the customs uncovered 426 kilograms. Despite this, I wonder if this co-operation could be improved on by familiarising relations between the Garda and the customs officers. We were told today that a sniffer dog is being trained. While we welcome this, it is not enough. We have a huge problem which we can tackle if we are determined enough. I know costs are involved but the cost to the community at large by stopping hard drugs coming in is worthwhile. I am disappointed that there is only one dog being trained for the sniffing of drugs. We have a problem in Dublin, Cork and many other places and it is shortsighted to be training only one animal for this purpose. I appeal to the Minister to give this special consideration because everyone is concerned about the effects of drugs on the community. We all wonder where our children are at night and whether they might be in contact with drugs. Members of the House have an opportunity to take action and we must close the loopholes in this area.

The Task Force on Drug Abuse made several recommendations in relation to illegal importation of drugs. I commend the report to the House. We are all committed to its findings but we must show our commitment by example. The Minister has an opportunity to give the committee every support by accepting the report and to ensure that the proposals and recommendations are acted on without delay.

Mr. Skelly

I should like to participate in the recommendation of this first report in the area of drugs and drug related offences. We realised very early on at the committee meetings that they were the areas which we wished to tackle and it was as a result of statements which had been made by members of the committee about the assault on crime that I was approached by a member of the Customs and Excise union. I suggested that they should make a submission to the committee and I am glad that the invitation was taken up.

The report is only an introduction to the horrific area of crime and it is not the last word on it. The committee will be doing much more work to eliminate as far as possible this menace from society. The report can be studied by anyone and I just want to concentrate on a few points. Drugs affect nearly all areas of crime, because in order to feed the habit of drugs addicts commit crime and terrorise most of the community. As public representatives we have had different experiences of the extent of the problem throughout the community, of the age groups affected and the attempts to tackle the problem. We know about the investigations and the convictions that take place. As Deputy Gregory and Deputy Mitchell have said, it is true that the Judiciary have a lot of work to do. They will have to come in from the cold, from their isolated positions and find out more of what is going on. They will have to come into closer contact with reality. If they paid an occasional visit to our prisons they would see the effects of this scourge on society.

Not long ago I went to court as a witness in a drugs case. It was not really a case of pushing but where a number of very young people were involved. They had been introduced to drugs when they were under 14 years and at school and as a group they continued to take them. They did not take heroin but they took cannabis. One of them collected the money and bought their supplies. One of the group was apprehended and gave the name of another person to the Garda. When the person who was entrusted to buy the drugs was approached by the Garda he co-operated fully and told the Garda what they were doing and the amount of drugs they bought and smoked. As a result of this co-operation he was charged with being a pusher. I held a watching brief in that case and I was horrified when this person got a sentence in excess of ten years for his offence.

I visited Mountjoy Prison on a few occasions. I am not making a plea for anyone involved in drugs but I am making a point which I wish to elaborate. I was amazed that such a long sentence had been given. From where I was sitting I happened to be able to read upside down the report of the medical officer. That report recommended that this person should be put away for a long time as he had a very serious problem. I asked him when I visited him if he had been examined by the medical officer when he went to Mountjoy. I was told the examination consisted of the door opening, of a man saying, "Are you so-and-so?", of the person in prison replying, "Yes" and of the door closing again. On that basis a recommendation was made to the judge that this was a dangerous individual and that he should be put away for a long time. That was a travesty of justice.

We have been given the frightening stastistic of 13 per cent of females in the 15 to 19 age group addicted to heroin and a figure of 10 per cent in the 15 to 24 age group. It is obvious that many people will be in a similar situation to the case I mentioned. If we can get people to admit they have a problem, to co-operate and to ask for help we should not hold over them the threat of putting them away for life if they need treatment. As has been pointed out by professional therapists, every drug addict is also a drug pusher. When addicts get their "fix" they split it: they keep one for themselves and they sell the other. We have to consider the situation with regard to our prisons. I do not think the Judiciary are aware of what is going on inside our prisons and they do not know the extent to which the system has broken down. It is in a state of collapse and that matter has to be considered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I presume the Deputy is only making a passing reference to this.

Mr. Skelly

Yes. The union here has behaved very responsibly. It shows that when one seeks the goodwill and co-operation of the community that is forthcoming. These members of the customs union volunteered to come before the committee and they offered their help. We should take up their offer with thanks.

About a year ago I asked the Minister of Justice a question in relation to the problem of drugs and young people. Research has shown that many drugs are given to school children. As a member of a parent-teacher group I have attended many talks in schools and I have listened to the school authorities say they cannot guarantee that children of 12 years and more will not be offered drugs. I asked the Minister if there could be some kind of surveillance on schools because people lie in wait and give drugs to children in the form of sweets until they become addicted. The answer the Minister gave was that we must protect school children because they cannot protect themselves. However, I do not think anything special has been done in this matter. It is the young people they are going after. We have got to protect schools throughout the country. Every secondary school should have some form of surveillance immediately. If the people in a new organisation called PUAC in the south Dublin area want to help and do something really useful they could ask their members to patrol the schools in their communities and watch out for drug pushers who are trying to peddle death on our young people. If we can protect young people from becoming hooked on drugs the pushers will have to go to the adult population and there is a totally different method of working with adults.

There is no doubt that our crime figures have increased greatly as a result of the drug problem.

As I have said in this House on many occasions and I will continue to do so until we start reacting properly, we do not seem to respond to any issue until the system breaks down. It does not matter whether it is a tax office in Dublin which has been going on for 20 years, Irish Shipping or anything else — the system has to break down. The Road Traffic Act breaks down, the crime problem breaks out and we start to do something about it when it is too late. It is now that we should do something about the drug problem.

What happens to the youth after school when they get jobs? If they start to drink very young they go to drinking houses, pubs and lounges and they congregate there and there is another nest for the starting of the drug habit. I have questioned young people continually about what they do with their spare time and I am horrified to discover that many people who earn good money and work hard go off at week-ends and drink their money away. They spend Friday night and most of Saturday and Sunday drinking and they drive from one pub to another for the purpose of drinking. With the measure of boredom that creeps into their lives, eventually they are easy prey to drugs.

We must increase tenfold if necessary the membership of the drug unit and the numbers of gardaí engaged on surveillance and detection of drugs. We must challenge the gangs, the godfathers, the criminals and break them. We must isolate them, boycott them, ostracise them and let it be known that their families, friends, neighbours, clubs and associations will boycott them also. I appreciate that concerned parents are trying to get rid of drug pushers and have them on the run, but all they are doing is pushing them from one area into another so they are not solving the problem. People should co-operate more with the Garda and help them in tracking down these drug pushers and finally reduce this traffic in death. Many of us whom it does not affect take the attitude that you forget all about it, sweep it under the carpet, as with so many other things.

The offer of the Customs and Excise union to the committee should not go unnoticed. It should be acted upon, not forgotten about and just put into the report. We need doers in this society in every department to ensure that when something good comes along it will not be just put on a shelf, that it will be put into effect and that someone will get to work on it. How can you count the cost of putting more people into the drug unit who are dedicated to eliminating this terrible problem? It may be a few million pounds or a mere few hundred thousand pounds, such as the union are seeking here. I appeal to the Minister and the House that we respond to this offer and that we tackle this probem of crime section by section. When the committee come into the House with reports those reports must be acted upon so that we do not come back here two or three years from now to hear it said that such a report was presented to the House three or four years ago and nothing done about it.

If we can seize large quantities of drugs at the ports of entry, that is fine; but if you close one window another window will be opened. The problem is very difficult what with roll-on roll-off containers and criminals who are happy to work on percentages and exploit unsuspecting people and use blackmail, deceit and violence in order to get their drugs. However, it is a start. Let us take it up and we will follow through with more reports to the House and we will appeal again in the House for resources from the Minister to tackle the problem.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Brian Cowen, and he must conclude at 4.25 p.m.

Mr. Cowen

As the most recent addition to this Joint Committee I have had to read up in a short period reports which they have issued to which I was not a party, but in my professional capacity as a solicitor I know the problem and I have dealt with it in my constituency in the rural midlands. Only once or twice have I come up against this very serious problem before the courts which has opened my eyes to the horror of heroin addiction and what it does to people. While this report deals with only a limited aspect of the whole area of detection and how we can properly rid ourselves of this disease which is attacking our culture and our whole way of life, it is a job well done and I commend the members of the Joint Committee on its publication.

I agree that customs officers have a greater role to play in this in terms of training and being allowed to implement their obvious desire to help in this area. The fact that they came before the committee voluntarily offering to help was a good sign from the union members.

What the report regards as an elementary step, that is the setting up of a special drug unit within the Customs and Excise operation, should be undertaken immediately. Such a unit can liaise with the Garda Drugs Squad, as has been said here. Although we increase the efficiency with which we try to detect the import of illicit drugs, no matter how efficient we are we all accept that it is very difficult to stop the traffic absolutely in the modern world. The basic problem, then, is how we attack it on the streets. If the Minister is really committed to tackling this problem, if he is not prepared to accept glib smugness in his Department, I tell him that the task force recommendations have not been implemented. When I was only a few short weeks in this House Deputy Gregory-Independent in a contribution here listed point after point of those recommendations on which no action had been taken. At that time the Minister for Health and Social Welfare was preoccupied with attacking groups who were, he said, subversive and so forth, which was not very helpful to the drug addicts on the street.

In passing, let me mention the retirement from the drug squad of Superintendent Mullins. We wish him well. That drug squad was born out of his commitment. I understand that he and a couple of other people started it in their spare time. They had an interest in the problem and understood it, and they attempted to contain it despite their limited resources. This is an example of what can happen if committed people are given an opportunity to have a say in policy-making decisions rather than people who have careers in the Department of Justice. Whatever resources have to be made available to that committed group of people should be made available to them. There is no reason why resources should not be allocated to meet the recommendations of the task force, otherwise the task force can justifiably be called a cosmetic exercise. Unfortunately, in this parlimentary democracy we have too many examples of task forces and the like being set up which have proved to be cosmetic exercises. As a councillor and a public representative I have noticed the sheer brilliance with which administrators try to fob you off with the excuse that they cannot allocate resources and, even if they are short in their own Department, it is impossible to allocate resources from other Departments which are not required in those Departments to those areas most in need of resources. This is an area of Irish life which requires an immediate allocation of resources in order to get dedicated men and women out to tackle this problem daily rather than a few people pontificating intermittently on the horror of the problem. If that is done we will get somewhere with the unfortunate people who are destroying their lives by their addiction.

The allocation of resources is the major problem here. It is extraordinary how Government officials can explain the impossibility of allocating resources to areas where they are required. The whole system of Estimates is archaic. The Government would serve the people well if they got over these administrative bottlenecks which seem to pop up any time one tries to do something to tackle a problem as serious as this. It is necessary that certain resources be allocated to Customs and Excise to ensure that their officials can counteract the sophisticated methods now used by drug peddlers in the importation of drugs. A co-ordinated approach is required between the Departments of Health, Justice and Education to ensure that the thousands of young people who leave our educational system annually and face the prospect of unemployment for many years are prepared for life rather than being prepared for the debs ball which seems to be the main preoccupation of most educators at present. People are leaving our education system so naive and uneducated in the ways of the world — they may get their As and Bs in their academic subjects — that we have a responsibility to make them aware that the world they are entering is not a very nice place, unfortunately.

We should allocate the necessary resources to educate our young people about the sheer danger and horror of drugs. We should arrange that groups are brought to courts to see these dishevelled unfortunates who may not have had a fix because they did not succeed in their bail application. Young people should be permitted to see what is involved in trying to defend such young people and the disaster that surrounds a courtroom when such a person appears. That would not involve the expenditure of much money but it would make young people realise that what they need is not a quick fix or a quick high. They would realise that drugs potentially mean the destruction of life. The committee is helping to highlight the seriousness of this problem. I strongly recommend their report to the House. I am not yet cynical about the workings of Government and I am hopeful something will be done about this problem.

Dr. Woods

I should like to thank members of the committee for their contribution to the report and to the Members who contributed to the debate. I should like to thank the Revenue Commissioners whom we found to be very forthright and forthcoming. Our meetings with them were workmanlike and valuable. I do not mean to convey the impression that we agreed with them all the time but we welcomed their professional approach. We welcomed the approach also of the Customs and Excise union. I should like to praise their keenness to give whatever they had to try to combat this problem.

I should like to mention one case which exemplified their approach. The case, which was well reported, occurred last week. Two persons were stopped by customs officers and had their baggage checked. During the search one officer found coconuts and was alerted when he recognised the strong smell of cannabis. After being questioned the two people were handed over the the Garda. That matter is before the courts. Their alertness, training and the fact that they recognised the smell of cannabis exemplified more than anything else the interest such officials have been taking in this area.

I should like to thank the Minister for Finance for his comments today. The Minister for Health since we issued our report has implemented several of our proposals. We had our report published before the Bill which was being debated here had passed Committee Stage. The result was that some of our provisions were taken into consideration. One recommendation that is still outstanding relates to section 23 of the 1977 Act. We are seeking an amendment to enable officers of Customs and Excise to search a person who has not landed but remains on board a ship or aircraft and who is suspected of passing drugs to a "meeter" or "greeter." We hope further consideration will be given to that recommendation.

With regard to the drugs unit, several Members expressed the wish that we should have a good drugs unit within the Customs and Excise framework. The Minister told us that two people were working almost full time on drugs but we are anxious to see a unit of three or four people established. We are leaving it to the Revenue Commissioners to decide what that should be, but we were disappointed that we did not get a commitment from the Minister to set up such a unit. It is obvious from what the Minister said that it would not take much to create such a unit. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider that matter because of the impact such a unit could have on the drugs area. Perhaps the Minister will inform the committee of his decision in due course.

Legislation has been changed but as yet customs officers are not authorised to arrest without consulting a very senior officer. The Minister should issue guidelines on this to the staff. I accept that the legislation was passed only recently but I appeal to the Minister to move expeditiously to try to overcome any problems. I am glad the Minister has agreed to consider issuing regulations to deal with stuffers and swallowers along the lines suggested in our report. We look forward to hearing from the Minister in regard to that.

I was glad to hear the Minister give us a commitment to the experimental checking of container traffic. He told us that he has made arrangements for this but we are not aware that any equipment has been provided for examining container traffic. We would be interested to hear from the Minister in regard to that. Deputy Gregory, who referred to that, was confused because he could not identify the equipment anywhere. It may be that it is about to go into operation. We are aware that if customs officials wish to examine a container at Dublin port they have to virtually beg for the use of a warehouse to do this work. Facilities should be provided for such examinations.

Generally, we found that co-ordination was good but we should be careful not to become complacent. The fact that co-ordination so far has been good does not mean that we should not make arrangements to ensure that it is better.

Basically, we are satisfied that the report was regarded as relevant, timely and that many of its recommendations have been implemented so quickly. Of course our customs constitute one aspect only of the whole problem of drugs and we clearly recognised that fact. We do call for support, by way of resources and action, for our recommendations and for the work being done by the customs people in this area.

The committee system is one that allows for frank, open discussion. We want our report to be constructive and beneficial, ensuring that action is taken. We have seen action with regard to the neighbourhood watch report and we look forward to further action being taken in that area. We have seen action also in relation to the customs and excise aspect of drugs, which we are glad to note.

We are very happy to present this report to the House. We thank Members for having contributed so eloquently to the debate. We thank also the Minister and his officials who have been involved in the course of the day.

I might put just one point on the record, that is that the Medico-Social Research Board report was one I commissioned at the time I was Minister specifically because we did not have information available to us in that area. That report established once and for all that there did exist a major and serious problem. It is one that everybody recognises warrants settlement. In other words, this is where the work of committees can be so useful in establishing factual positions.

Question put and agreed to.