Vol. 362 No. 2
asked the Minister for Justice whether the new special unit that has been built in the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum is now intended to be used for prisoners with drug addiction; if it is so intended to be used, the reason it has not yet been brought into operation; and when it is anticipated this facility will be utilised.
17.
asked the Minister for Justice if in view of reports that up to 30 per cent of prisoners in Mountjoy Jail are believed to be drug abusers and in view of the recent death of a prisoner from a drugs overdose, he will indicate the measures his Department are taking to prevent illegal drugs getting into the prisons; if it is intended to provide a separate unit within the prison system to treat drug abusers and those with related illnesses; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
27.
asked the Minister for Justice the action he has taken regarding recent allegations that some prison officers might be responsible for bringing hard drugs into Mountjoy Prison; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
30.
asked the Minister for Justice the special action being taken by him and his Department to ensure that persons sentenced to terms of imprisonment for drug abuse are kept in properly supervised facilities so as to ensure that there is no repetition of the recent tragic incidents of prisoners with drug addiction taking their own lives.
33.
asked the Minister for Justice the circumstances in which an offender in his care in Mountjoy Prison was found hanged; and the steps he has taken and the measures he plans to deal with the problem of drug addiction, hepatitis and alcoholism in Mountjoy Prison.
(Limerick East): I propose to take Oral Questions Nos. 7, 17, 27 and 30 and Priority Question No. 33 together.
First of all, I would like to draw the attention of Deputies to my reply to Question No. 37 of 23 October where I dealt generally with drug addiction in prisons and outlined the facilities available to the prison — Official Report, columns 38 to 40 of that date. Since then, as Deputies will be aware, two people died tragically in Mountjoy Prison, one from an apparently self-administered overdose of illicit drugs and the other by hanging. As I am sure will be appreciated, an inquest must be held in both cases and I would not therefore regard it as appropriate for me to comment publicly on issues to be determined at the inquests. In addition, the circumstances in which the prisoner was found hanged are the subject of an internal inquiry which is not yet completed.
Since my reply of 23 October last was given, two developments have taken place in relation to drugs. First, the Minister for Health and I have discussed the possible use of an almost completed new unit at the Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum, as a centre for conducting "screening" medical tests on newly committed prisoners who are thought to be in need of screening for conditions such as hepatitis, AIDS, etc. I understand that the Department of the Health will now be discussing the position with the Eastern Health Board. I hope to be in a position to make a joint statement with the Minister for Health on this matter in the near future.
The second development is the appearance in the prisons of drug addicted prisoners who have been proven to have come in contact with the AIDS virus. One such prisoner in Mountjoy who was due for release on 26 November was released from custody on the day on which notification of the presence of AIDS antibodies in his blood was received, on condition that he attend for appropriate medical monitoring of his condition. The other person is still in custody in St. Patrick's Institution but is now segregated from the main body of offenders in the institution. Guidelines drawn up some time ago by my Department in consultation with the Department of Health have been issued for dealing with this offender.
The presence of prisoners who have been in contact with the AIDS virus is, obviously, a most unwelcome development for the prision system but was not unexpected, given the experience of other prison systems throughout the world. As I have said this problem has been encountered in other prison systems. In the near future, officers of my Department will travel abroad to see at first hand how the problem has been coped with and to learn from the experience of others. Because of the understandable fears expressed by prison staff in view of the exceptional nature of this problem, representatives of the Prison Officers' Association will be included in the official party.
On the question of the prevention of drugs being brought illegally into prisons, I think it is important that there be a recognition of the great difficulty faced by prison authorities in trying to ensure that drugs are not smuggled into prison. Many members of this House would, I have no doubt, protest if there were to be any question of introducing the kind of regime that would be needed to achieve a very high degree of security in that respect and complete success would, in any event, be unattainable. Arrangements are, however, being made to instal cameras in the visiting rooms at Mountjoy in order to enhance the security of those rooms.
While stressing the virtual impossibility of excluding drugs altogether, I would like to emphasise that recent speculation on the level of illegal drug use in the prisons and on the number of prisoners considered to be serious drug addicts, as distinct from those who may have had experience of drug taking before committal, seriously overstates the problem. Specifically, there is no basis for suggestions that 30 per cent of the prison population are either drug addicts or regular drug abusers. That percentage represents the number of prisoners who have themselves said that they took drugs at some stage.
On the question of allegations that some prison officers are involved in trafficking with prisoners in drugs, the position is that such allegations have been made from time to time but to date no evidence has been forthcoming which would warrant any action being taken in relation to any officer. In fairness to the general body of officers, I should also stress that the suggestions that there has been trafficking relate only to a tiny minority and even then, as I have said, have not been substantiated. But if any Deputy has any evidence of such criminal activity on the part of any officer, I would request that it be made available so that it can be investigated by the gardaí.
Deputy Woods raises two other points — treatment for hepatitis and alcoholism. In the case of hepatitis, this is obviously a matter for the medical staff of the prisons who arrange for specialised consultation where they deem it necessary. I should say that prison medical staff have been conscious for many years of the dangers to health posed by those with hepatitis who are, in the main, drug abusers. On treatment for alcoholism I would refer the Deputies to the various annual reports on prisons, copies of which are available in the Library, and which contain a fair amount of material on this subject.
Finally, I would like to make the point that a prison system cannot possibly offer some ready to hand cure for the various problems presented by prisoners suffering from the effects of drugs. Most, if not all, of those drug abusers will have previously received treatment in some hospital or centre before being committed to prison. So the situation is one where it must be recognised that, in most cases arising in the prisons, previous treatment was not successful in weaning the person from the addiction despite the best efforts of the people running those programmes.
I need not emphasise the obvious fact that this comment is not a criticism of those people who are doing such dedicated and excellent work on behalf of the community, but it is only right to say that likewise there is no lack of will within the prison system to help drug addicts. It must, however, be recognised that problems such as drug addiction within a prison are a reflection of what is happening in the wider community and it is not realistic to expect that the solution to drug abusers' problems can be found simply by some special action taken in a prison environment.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, in particular to Question No. 7, could he clarify if it is envisaged that the new unit in Dundrum will be used purely for testing, or if it will provide some sort of treatment centre? If the latter is the case, how many persons will it be able to accommodate in providing treatment for drug addiction within the prison system?
(Limerick East): The position at the moment is that I have had discussions with the Minister for Health. Discussions are going on between our respective officials and I understand that the Department of Health will now be discussing the position with the Eastern Health Board. It is envisaged in the first instance that the facilities there could be used for screening for such conditions as hepatitis or AIDS. Also it would be possible to provide treatment for approximately 30 to 31 in single room accommodation in the centre which is almost completed.
The Minister has taken in one of the priority questions in this reply so I have no alternative but to ask supplementaries now.
It is part of the order.
Otherwise I would stay out of it and come back later. Is the Minister aware that in this very month 20 out of 26 inmates of the women's prison in Mountjoy were alleged to be on drug-related charges — this was in a report by a journalist which appeared very recently — and that normally the number is at least one third? Is the Minister aware also that a survey of drug abusers in the Dublin committal prisons in September 1981 showed that of 22 drug abusers in Mountjoy two only had served any sentence prior to taking drugs, that is, 9 per cent only had served any sentence prior to taking drugs? Furthermore, this survey showed that 70 per cent were convicted of larceny from houses and cars, muggings and bag snatches in order to get money for drugs, and that 8,000 people had come to the notice of the gardaí because of involvement in drugs? Does the Minister not agree, therefore, that one of the best ways of dealing with drugs and of slashing these crime rates is to deal with the people who are found to be offenders in that area? Would he agree that he has here an opportunity to deal with the drugs situation, quite severely cutting the crime rates, if he can make good progress with offenders who come to the attention of the Garda? In the replies given so far I did not notice any particularly marked plan to deal with that situation. It is a very important subject, a Cheann Comhairle.
There is no use in the Deputy telling the Chair that it is very important. I concede that it is important but I cannot have speeches.
(Limerick East): I am not aware of the statistics referred to by the Deputy as regards the women's prison. I doubt that they are accurate but I will get the accurate figure and communicate separately with the Deputy on it. With regard to the other study to which the Deputy referred, we all know that drug addiction leads to involvement in crime in quite a number of cases. But the Deputy is also aware that it is very difficult, once one is addicted, to break the addiction habit. It requires extraordinarily high levels of self-motivation.
The point I am making in my answer is that many people who go to prison and are addicted have already undergone treatment in hospitals and drug centres outside and, despite the best efforts of the staff on these programmes, they have not succeeded in breaking the addiction habit. Therefore, I am saying that it is very difficult, but that is not to say that it is not important, that it is not a serious problem, or that I am not committed to taking every step to help individual prisoners who are suffering from addiction in our prison system. In a previous reply to Deputy Hyland I outlined the steps I intend to take and one can add the steps I have indicated today to that programme.
Are drug offenders safe in the Minister's care? We have had two drug-related deaths recently. As public representatives, often we find that people come to us to ask——
A question, Deputy, please.
I am asking the Minister a question.
The Deputy asked the direct question: were drug addicts safe in the Minister's care but then he seemed to go on to make a case on why they are not. That is not acceptable and cannot be tolerated at Question Time.
Perhaps the Minister might answer, then.
(Limerick East): Drug addicts, because of their addiction, are not safe anywhere as long as they are addicted. But independent studies have shown that drug addicts are probably safer in my care than they are in the community at large.
Is the Minister aware that parents, wives and families of offenders who have been committed to Mountjoy, feel they have a right to be protected while they are in care there? Second, is the Minister aware that public representatives have been approached — I for one have been approached — when people are transferred to Cork prison because, to date, Cork has been relatively drug free, or from problems which I understand are now creeping in there? Parents and families have a right to expect that prisoners would be safe in the care of the Minister. Would the Minister not accept that fact and try to ensure that that request is respected? When they are taken out of the drug environment outside and put into a secure situation, surely the families have a right to expect they would be free from drugs?
(Limerick East): The individual prisoner who is deprived of his freedom still has his consitutional and basic human rights and is certainly entitled to care, protection and treatment in so far as such can be arranged. Certainly I am committed to doing that. But if one takes the other side of the coin and makes a determined effort to attack the drug problem on the streets of Dublin, inevitably people who are addicted will end up in prison. One cannot deal with the situation in prisons without being aware of the associated problem on the streets.
Will the Minister explain to the House why it has not been possible to establish an isolation unit for drug offenders within the prison system itself?
(Limerick East): Because, for example, in a place like Mountjoy there are a number of conflicting policies. For example, it is policy not to mix people who are on remand with people who have been sentenced. Neither is it policy to mix first-time offenders with people who repeatedly offend. If one were to take all drug offenders and put them in one particular area, first of all there is serious doubt about whether that would achieve anything — it might make things worse — in terms of having all drug offenders together but, second, it cuts straight across other equally valid policies about the treatment of offenders.
Can the Minister say whether there is currently an investigation going on into the source of drugs in prisons and, in particular, in the context of Mountjoy prison?
(Limerick East): In the context of the security of the prison there is constant vigilance as to the source of drugs. But I should like to remind the House that there is visiting to Mountjoy on every day of the week except Sunday. In terms of visits, say, on a Saturday, 700 or 800 people could visit there. We must have a regime under which relatives and friends can visit. There is a conflict between a regime under which one can freely visit and a regime under which things cannot be passed, especially things as small as drugs. Obviously large quantities of drugs can be transmitted in very small packages in terms of embracing, kissing, that kind of inter-personal relationship. Therefore, there is a problem in getting the balance right.
Deputy Hyland, and then I must move to the next question. I know people will not be satisfied but I have discretion — somebody has to be in charge — and I am then moving to the next question.
Surely the Minister would agree that, because of the nature of the problem of drug addiction, by allowing prisoners with a drug problem to mix freely with prisoners who have not got a drug problem, he is exposing the latter to drug addiction or to the risk of becoming drug addicts. That is the point I am making in relation to an isolation unit within the prison itself, that they should be isolated, given special treatment and be monitored continuously?
(Limerick East): The Whitaker Committee who examined this in the context of regimes within prisons did not come down on the side of a separate drugs unit within the prison. A treatment unit outside the prison, for example, in Dundrum is a better solution, in conjunction with the release policy of non-violent prisoners to be treated in Jervis Street or in the Coolmine Centre is a much better solution.
Is the Minister not lucky that I decided to build that unit out there?
(Limerick East): The Deputy did not. It was the present Minister for Health.
Would the Minister please answer Question No. 8?
Is it true that they are throwing drugs over the walls in footballs? Is that true?
Will the Minister please answer Question No. 8 and will Deputy Woods please obey the Chair?
(Limerick East): Deputy Woods is a great man for innuendo.
If the Minister would answer——
Would Deputy Woods show some respect for the Chair?
(Limerick East): The Deputy comes in here and puts little bits on the record.
One would need a listening device here but, when the Minister has some innuendo to throw at us himself, he is quite audible. Would the Chair impress that on him?
(Limerick East): I do not want to interrupt Deputies who are interrupting.
That is the first interruption the Minister has heard from me. It was remarkably difficult to hear him.
I am calling Question No. 8.
