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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 13 Dec 1985

Vol. 362 No. 12

Supplementary Estimates, 1985. - Report of Committee on Marriage Breakdown: Statements (Resumed).

At the outset I wish to compliment the members of the marriage breakdown committee on their report. It is obvious that a considerable amount of time and painstaking work was involved in the production of the report. The fact that the committee were set up at all was a step forward in stimulating debate in this area. Because they encountered difficulties at various stages in the compilation of their report, public consciousness was aroused in the matter of the problem of marital breakdown. I wish to pay a special tribute to Deputy Michael O'Leary because had it not been for his initiative in publishing his own Bill and being so forceful in a very lonely crusade with which practically 100 per cent of his party did not agree, it is unlikely that we would be discussing this report, at least in this Dáil session. Deputy O'Leary's initiative appears to have stirred the political parties or perhaps I should say, forced the political parties, to consider seriously the enactment of legislation in this area.

My contribution to the debate will be relatively brief. Earlier this year I made public my personal situation. Consequently I consider myself constrained from launching into a normal type debate in this very special area. As a general rule, legislators should not allow their personal circumstances to influence or impinge on their legislative functions. However, I recognise that it is extremely difficult for any politician always to draw that distinction because we are all influenced by our personal experiences. I am not the only politician in the present Oireachtas who has martial problems but those of us who have those problems are merely a reflection of Irish society today. There is no family in the State who do not have a brother, sister or some close relative with similar problems. For the record I wish to state that I have always believed the constitutional ban on divorce to be wrong. I would welcome very much in regard to this issue and to similar issues also the non-application of the Whip system in each party. I am convinced that within the next ten years or so the absolutely rigidity of the party Whip system will change. There are many general points that I should like to make regarding the application of that system in this House, points both for and against the system, but this debate is not the proper forum for making such points.

We in Fianna Fáil have been encouraged to make our personal views known on the problems of marital breakdown. Personally I am grateful for that opportunity. I am in favour of divorce legislation and I am convinced that a referendum should be held as soon as possible with a view to removing that provision of the Constitution which prohibits divorce. I recognise that within all parties in the House there are sincerely held but opposing views. No party has a monopoly of sincerity in this area. The same can be said so far as any Deputy or groups of Deputies are concerned. A number of Deputies believe sincerely that the enactment of divorce legislation would be a disaster. While I respect their opinions, I do not agree with them. Broken marriages will not cease to be broken, regardless of whether we introduce divorce legislation. One cannot prevent people dying merely by banning funerals.

In a normal situation there are many points on which I would base my case to advocate divorce legislation but I will confine myself to just one such point. I regard divorce as a civil liberty, no more and certainly no less. The Constitution of any country should not reflect the thinking of any religious group. I am a Roman Catholic but I am not here as a Roman Catholic politician. My religion is my personal property. No politician should regard himself as being here to reflect the views of any Church. I do not deny the right of any religious grouping to offer their opinion but I reject being told by clerics that as a Catholic I must legislate as a Catholic. The logic of that theory is mind boggling. For instance, it could mean that on every occasion on which there was a change of Government the laws would have to reflect the ethos, values and teaching as reflected in the new Government. Such a situation could not be tolerated. The laws at any stage should allow for the exercise of personal freedom subject to the concept of the overall good. That is why I believe divorce to be a civil liberty. An argument has not been advanced to prove that the overall good is damaged by the introduction of divorce.

It is the function of the Oireachtas to legislate for all the people irrespective of religious beliefs. It would appear from opinion polls that the country is evenly divided on the issue. Let us put the question to the people and accept their decision. I would not gamble on the outcome but, as elected representatives, we should not be afraid to face the people on any issue. When there is a referendum I hope all sides in the debate will avoid the usual hysterical mud slinging that has characterised such debates in the past. On many occasions since I became a TD I have criticised the absence of real leadership. This criticism has been taken as a criticism only of Fianna Fáil leadership. However my criticism was and is against all sides of the House in a general way.

It distresses me to hear some elected representatives argue that it is not right politically to have a referendum now. If there is anything I have learned in my political career, to my cost on many occasions, it is that there is never a right time to be brave in politics. Surely we have learned this in the economic sphere over the past 15 years. Furthermore, the controversial social changes have usually been forced on the Oireachtas by the courts. The original contraceptive legislation arose from a court decision. Politicians appear to act on the principle — there goes the mob, I must follow.

This attitude is an abdication of real leadership. Over the years I have tried to analyse the cause of this abdication and my main thesis is that the present multiseat proportional representation system is the main determinant for our appalling record in real leadership in all areas. As a logical follow-on from these principles, as legislators we should not wait around until the opinion polls say that it is politically safe to test the waters on this issue. Notwithstanding the real sincerity of many people who believe divorce is wrong, the legislators would be more respected for braving these issues, based on conviction, even if the majority are against their proposals. I urge the House to take this issue straight on and let the people decide as soon as possible.

Millions of words will be spoken and written about the case for and against the introduction of divorce. I wonder how many people who have aired their views and who will air their views have taken the trouble to read the comprehensive report which we are now discussing. I associate myself with the many tributes paid to Deputy Willie O'Brien and his committee for their work on this report.

The report under discussion is not about divorce because the committee's terms of reference were to consider the protection of marriage and family life and examine the problems related to marriage breakdown. The focus of attention seems to be on marriage breakdown and on whether or not we should have divorce. Page 120 of the report under the heading "divorce" states quite clearly that it is the committee's opinion that a referendum should be held. The question of whether or not we should have divorce rests entirely with the people and can only be decided by referendum. All that concerns this House is the best time to hold a referendum.

Some say this is a bad time because the opinion polls show that the majority do not want divorce and if a referendum were held the issue of divorce would be rejected and buried for decades. Others believe it should be held now to get the matter decided once and for all. What has disgusted me is the way in which the problem is being handled like a hot potato and the manner in which the issue has been turned into a political football. The sooner TDs admit to the reality and size of the problem of marriage breakdown, the sooner we will get to the point of working towards a solution to the problem which is causing untold misery for so many people.

We should consider the known number of broken marriages and the many cases which have not been documented. We must consider the numbers of separated couples who are living with partners not their spouses, and the people living together without the benefit of marriage because of the attitudes to marriage breakdown. We must consider the many legal highways and byways taken by the victims of marriage breakdown and the problems they are storing up for themselves and the children of their unrecognised partnerships.

We legislators continue to run away from the real issue, from our duty and from the real business of politics which is about government and leadership. Surely this running away is one of the causes of the great apathy of young people towards politics and politicians. Accepting that there is a problem is a major step. We must also accept that the Ireland of the eighties is not and will never again be the Ireland of the thirties and the forties when endurance was the only solution to marriage failure. In we accept that we are an open economy surely we should accept that we are part of a global village and that the technology of communications alone ensures that we are influenced by the ideas, concepts and attitudes of the world, and that we must face up to realities.

If we as politicians are to mean anything at all to the people we represent we must clearly state the differences between the civil law and the laws of the churches. It must be made clear that, if civil law permits divorce, it will not compel any Catholic, Protestant, Jew or Hindu to seek divorce or, if divorced by their partner, to remarry. They will have their own free choice in the matter and their religious beliefs to follow in taking decisions.

A further problem is that, when the Roman Catholic Church grants an annulment the partners remain married according to the civil law. Strangely, the Roman Catholic Church continues to use its considerable influence to ensure that the State does not introduce divorce. This situation has led to extraordinary confusion and hurt, mostly among those affected by marital breakdown.

In purely political terms, at a time when we have sought an Anglo-Irish agreement, is it not ironic, cynical and hypocritical to talk of accepting only a unitary State while at the same time postponing action on the issue of divorce which is a civil right for all in the northern part of this country but not in this part? Is it not appalling to use religious beliefs, coloured by political opportunism——

Is the Deputy saying that the Anglo-Irish conference is part of the remit to make proposals in respect of legislation here?

If we are to get unity of opinion and purpose amongst our people, we will have some uniform standards throughout this island.

The Deputy should not be so childish. The Deputy is being absolutely childish at this stage.

The Deputy should read the agreement and he will see ——

There have not been interruptions in the debate so far and there should not be. Deputy Allen.

If there is to be unity of purpose and opinion amongst all the people of this country we must have unity of laws. It is appalling to use religious beliefs, coloured by political opportunism, for a single political purpose, that is, to attempt to embarrass a Government attempting to deal with a real problem affecting so many people. It appears that power at any price, even at the price of human misery, is the norm in some circles. Deputy John Kelly recently expressed the view that this was not the right time to hold a referendum because a lack of consensus would ensure defeat. Perhaps there is something in that.

Another belief has been put forward by people who do not want to do anything, people who believe there are other, more pressing issues to be dealt with, such as taxation and unemployment. It is the business of Government and leadership to identify with all the issues of our times. Marital breakdown is such an issue today and is as great an issue as the others that have been mentioned.

The Taoiseach lit a fire of political decency which inspired change in my party and his integrity of leadership has won him many supporters. It will be noted in history that the leadership of our party faced the real issues of our times. However, all of this must not be lost or extinguished or killed through cynical, political opportunism, native hypocrisy and cuteness, or by the pressure of vested interests, political or religious. Most of all, it must not be lost through fear, which is the opposite to political leadership.

By acknowledging the reality of the problem at present we have made a start and we must now seek solutions, As legislatiors we must seek a sense of fair play for our people, old and young, who want and need to fight against the disillusionment so prevalent after so many years of unseemly, unChristian squabbling where religion and politics are mixed. People will respond to integrity, courage, honesty and leadership. Politicians should stand up now and lead and, in so doing, perhaps restore our dignity which is lost every time we back down in the face of pressure groups.

If we decide to hold a referendum on this issue I hope it will not go the way of previous referenda, when the public were so confused that the percentage who turned out to vote was low. In the past I believe that to have been a reflection not only of the apathy of people but of the confusion created over the issues in question.

Marital breakdown has been a problem in this country for decades and it will not disappear by being ignored. Even in the early stages of this debate pressure groups are beginning to show their muscle. In a democracy there is room for pressure groups, but these groups must have respect for the position of other groups within the State and must attempt to understand the opinions of others. Most people accept the right of each person to express his or her opinion in a forthright way. I hope this atmosphere will continue to grow during this debate on marital breakdown.

I am conscious that other Deputies want to speak and that this is the last day of this session for this debate. Chapter 2 of the Report of the Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown spells out the legal and constitutional position of marriage and the family in Ireland. Most of us subscribe to this even though some think that divorce is a necessary legal remedy to marital breakdown. In this chapter the committee expressed concern about illegitimate births resulting from the large number of informal unions brought about by married persons living with married persons other than their legal spouses, or with single persons. Also, if persons who have obtained a divorce outside the State or an annulment of their marriage by the Church, were to marry and have children, the status of those children is put in question because, in the eyes of the State, these people have not remarried, this is a very confusing, unreal situation which must be examined and a remedy must be found. Again, this is the result of marital breakdown.

Chapter 3 deals with means to prevent marital breakdown, such as the need for education and preparation for marriage. Preparation for marrige should be on the curriculum of every school in the country. Unfortunately, it is a matter which is totally forgotten about as each school endeavours to gain the highest academic standard possible. Preparation and study for marriage should come from the home, the schools and other organisations as the child develops and should not take place weeks before or after the marriage takes place. The social, financial and human problems that affect a marriage must be highlighted and incorporated into pre-marriage courses. These courses must be supported by the State to a greater degree than they have been to date. I must commend the churches for the way in which they have undertaken this role down the years. In my diocese in recent years the different churches have set up marriage counselling services which are of great benefit to the people of the area but they have received very little support from the State.

Chapter 7 deals with legal remedies available in the State, one of which is the decree of nullity which seems to be a long and expensive avenue to be pursued by members of the Catholic Church. The results of nullity are dealt with in that chapter. Again the whole of this area needs to be clarified.

I believe there is a strong case for separating the civil and religious ceremonies of marriage in order to emphasise their completely different roles. The present combination of ceremonies, religious and civil, causes confusion if a Church annulment is granted because, too often, the results of the Church union include children. Therefore one cannot ignore a couple's relationship or its results. For me the concept of nullity is very hard to understand.

Chapter 4 deals with marriage breakdown. In this chapter the committee examine in detail how marriages break down. In this connection I would like to refer to the pressures of modern living which are forcing so many married women, even those with children, to take jobs. In recent years there has been a substantial increase in the number of wives working outside the home for a wage and all the evidence indicates that with the amount of pressure this trend will continue in the years to come. If we are concerned about the protection of marriage and family life there is a need and opening here for preventive action by the State. There is a crying need to revise and review the services available to families. I refer specifically to the need for a comprehensive system of child care facilities to be provided by the State. The pressures on the families of working parents are enormous and, in my experience, have been contributory factors in the undermining of many marriages.

Therefore, it is important that the Government adopt the recommendations in the report on the provision of child care facilities throughout the State. I do not agree with the belief of the ICTU which was submitted to the committee that there should be extended maternity leave and family responsibility leave. Maybe I am wrong, but I am of the opinion that the present maternity leave which a mother can have, of 14 weeks at the time of the birth of her baby, is more than sufficient. It results in discrimination against women who are competing for jobs against their male counterparts because employers are not prepared to take on somebody who is going to get 14 or 16 weeks off at the time of the birth of a child.

There is a law to make that illegal.

There is a law but it is still happening.

I would like the Deputy to report it.

Therefore, any suggestion that maternity leave should be extended or that paternity leave should be introduced would be unwise as it weighs against women applicants for jobs. Secondly, the State cannot afford any extension at present. In dealing with chapter 4 let me say that the many crimes of social deprivation such as poor housing and unemployment are contributory factors to marital stress and major threats to the permanency of marriage.

We have dealt with that problem.

I believe that divorce is a civil right even though there are many reasons why it may not be socially desirable. In dealing with the family it has been said many times that the availability of divorce in Ireland would encourage people to take marriage less seriously. However, if we make a comparison between the North and this part I am sure that we would not find much difference in the attitudes of the people to family life. The fact that divorce is available in the North does not seem to worsen the attitude to the family unit there.

In relation to the family unit, the definition of the family in the Constitution must be redefined to include the single parent with children. It will be very interesting to see the figure in the next census relating to single parent families. I believe it will be close to the Northern Ireland figure of 10 per cent.

Dealing with premarriage courses and preparation for marriage in general I was amazed to find on page 191 of the proceedings of the committee that Father Kennedy, who represents the Catholic Marriage Advisory Council, informed the committee that in 1983 the council received only £31,000 from the State for marriage counselling and education services and only £27,500 for family planning services. Those are insignificant amounts of money for such vital services which lay the proper foundations and preparations for marriage. The State has a responsibility to aid organisations who create a proper foundation for marriage because these organisations are under-resourced and under-financed at present and are competing with attitudes which are being projected through the media which indicate and project the totally wrong image of marriage that we see so often in American "canned" television programmes where the permanency of marriage seems non-existent. Therefore, there is a responsibility on the State to finance the organisations that are attempting to lay a proper foundation for the permanency of marriage. The projected standards that we get so often from foreign television programmes are doing irreparable damage to the developing minds of our young people and their attitudes to marriage.

The whole issue of marital breakdown and, more specifically, divorce at present, unfortunately, seems to be a Church versus State clash, which is regrettable. The Church's view was expressed quite clearly by the Bishops in a statement in 1976——

Which Bishops?

The Catholic Bishops.

There is more than one Church.

I wish politicians would remember that more often.

The Catholic Bishops. I stand corrected. Perhaps a fault in politicians is that we think there is only one Church and maybe that is coming across in my views. The Catholic Bishops in a statement in 1976 said: "It is not the view of the Catholic Church that in the law of the State principles peculiar to our faith should be binding on people who do not adhere to that faith". Therefore, those who insist on seeing the issues in terms of the State enforcing or not enforcing their Catholic moral teaching are missing the point.

We as politicians should be concerned about the social impact of divorce. We must decide whether divorce will create greater problems while lessening the problems we have at present due to the absence of divorce. We must decide on this issue and each person in the State will have to debate it in his mind in the months ahead. I hope that a referendum will be held to give the people a final say because it is they who will have the final say, but we as legislators must legislate for all people in the country irrespective of our religious beliefs. In legislating we must take into consideration the different views of people. Therefore, I hope that the referendum will be held in the months ahead to let the people decide the issue once and for all, but I hope that the people in deciding will not be confused or stampeded into taking decisions because of political opportunism or misleading statements from different interests.

The issue we are addressing is by definition a fundamental issue going as it does to the root of what is described in the Constitution as the fundamental unit in our society. The Constitution in Article 41.1.1º provides that:

The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

As it stands, the Constitution under which we operate our laws recognises as a fact that the family has a primary and fundamental role to play. The family as such is not defined in the Constitution but it is clear from the development of the concept of family, either in Irish law, Brehon law, Roman law or any concept of law, that the family being referred to is the broader definition, not just the narrow unit of parents and their immediate children. Grandparents and, if they are alive, great-grandparents, are as much a part of the family and the unit we are discussing as are the parents or the children.

It is significant that the Irish term for family, Clann, is in a sense the direct equivalent of clan. The role of a family is not just the role of the husband and wife but of the dependants, as they are described in law, who extend to grandparents and even great-grandparents. We must recognise that that family where it can be promoted is a very worth-while and positive unit that should be promoted. In congested areas in our cities we do not have the balancing influence of grandparents. In settled communities of two or three generations, not necessarily in rural Ireland but in the village communities of this city like the Liberties, one of the most stable elements in those families are the "gran" and sometimes the "great-gran" or the grandfather. Compare that with what can arise in newly developed housing schemes such as Dublin Corporation have been promoting for some time. From the environmental and physical point of view they may be ideal schemes but there is always something lacking. Some of the schemes that have been regarded here as being disastrous at various stages compare very favourably in terms of the physical planning with what is available in other cities in Europe. What is missing in many cases is the real family concept involving, understandably, the old "gran" or "great-gran".

I am trying to illustrate that the stability of the family does not depend only on the husband, wife and immediate children. It goes beyond that and in any consideration we should address ourselves to that. We should take note of the contributions older generations make to stability. In my experience I can see the way my children relate to their "gran" and I know what that does for stability when, perhaps, the role of rather infrequent visitors to the home like myself would not necessarily be a great contribution to stability. Therefore, we must tread rather carefully if we are proposing changes in the way we introduce them in these areas.

One must have concern for young couples living in a rather detached suburban environment who do not have the benefit of concern, care or advice of their parents or grandparents and who have to face economic pressures and pressures of adjusting with each others personalities. That is where the problem seems to arise. We must look at the secure, stable elements which are perhaps most characteristic of rural Ireland — I am not making any great boast about that — but are also characteristic of the wonderful village communities of this great old city, places like the Ringer, where I taught for quite a while, the Liberties and so on. It is time we recognised those values and promoted them. The old Irish saying on a wedding day, "Go raibh sliocht sleachta ar shliocht bhur sleachta", "That you may have the generations after generations on your immediate family" is the real blessing and it is time we recognised it as such.

There has been a lot of talk about rights in this debate. It is important to recognise that there are rights but rights have always a balancing responsibility. A right that does not have a balancing responsibility is not a right at all, it is a licence not just one subject to certain regulations but one without restriction. That is not the type of right we want to consider. For instance, if we talk in terms of the right of a parent to exercise a separation or divorce and consider that right as being an absolute one irrespective of the rights of some others involved in that contract, the children, we are not then talking about rights any more but a licence in the sense of absolute freedom. We are not talking about a licence in the sense of a regulated control. The trend in current analysis on a number of issues is to focus entirely on rights as if they can be discharged, as if the citizen lived entirely in isolation from the society in which he or she lives.

As I try to gather my thoughts I should like to draw the attention of the staff to the fact that it is a little distracting to hear them talking. If there has to be discussion I would prefer that it be conducted sotto voce.

Let us consider marriage as a civil contract, because it is that, and leave out the religious aspect, the church ceremony and so on. It has special characteristics that some other contracts do not have and I hope I can deal with it both ways in terms of what it has in common with other contracts and what distinguishes it from them. What distinguishes it from other contracts is that the two people who enter that contract bring about a situation in which other people are born, people who were not there at the time of the original contract but who were a direct consequence of it and have rights as well as being simply accidental consequences of the contract. Therefore, when looking at the question of whether either of the two original parties to the contract can exercise their rights one must also take into account by definition the rights of those who have come into being as a consequence of the original contract. That is what distinguishes the marriage contract from others. If Deputy Barnes and myself for a variety of reasons entered into any other type of contract we can freely break by agreement between us what we freely entered into by agreement because it affects nobody else. If in discharge of our civil contract we affect other people the law will tell us that if the consequence of our discharge of a contract will have a damaging effect on others then we are not quite so free to end that contract because of that. That must apply by definition in this case.

That characteristic of the marriage contract is unlike most other contracts. For that reason we have to consider the rights of children, particularly those who are not at an age of being able to express themselves, much less protect their rights. For that reason the law has always laid down protection for children. Marriage also has characteristics of any other contract and one of them is that there is a consensus, ad idem, an agreement towards the same end for the same purpose. Where it can be demonstrated that there are no longer conditions which show a consensus ad idem, then we have the end of any contract.

I have some little experience of this as a lawyer, because I appeared as Senior Counsel before the Supreme Court with Senior Counsel, now Mr. Justice Séamus Egan, in the first nullity decree, to my knowledge, for 15 years or perhaps 20. That was in the early seventies — 1974 or 1975 — when I went back to practise after some years in Government. This decree had been refused in the High Court. I notice that even in the Law Reports the names are not mentioned. The basis on which that decree of nullity was given in the Supreme Court was that in this instance the behaviour of the male party almost immediately after the formal contract was entered into on the marriage day was of a nature which was inconsistent with any intention of having a permanent contract, despite the fact that the conduct of the couple before marriage indicated at least a sexual relationship which is characteristic of marriage. Certainly, by the second night that all ended. That would be a good base for nullifying a marriage, because no consensus was there. Since then there have been many decisions in our courts declaring that that fundamental element of consent was absent. In one recent case it was held that there was undue pressure to marry, which was a very simple, clearcut case. In the case to which I am referring there was a misleading intention — one party was conveying to the other the impression that they both agreed about the same thing when they did not. There must have been since then 40 cases of civil nullities.

We can certainly bring that element of the law, through the Statute Book, much more into line with reality. I am not talking about Church nullities which are not a matter of concern to me here; I am talking about civil nullities. An examination of the consequences of court decisions will show that the least we should do is adopt into legislation what already is decreed in so many consistent court decisions. I am taking an analytical or philosophical approach to this matter, bit it is not just as easy as using clichés like "Let us take our courage in our hands". Broader issues are involved and I hope the Chair and the House will bear with me when I address these issues. I shall address some false presumptions.

There is a trend in presentation of referring to all who are enlightened and tolerant "in these modern times"— as if every stage in the human experience has not been a modern time. Perhaps the most beautiful experiences of the human condition occurred 2000 years ago in the then modern times of Athens. Every succeeding generation must face up to reality in their modern times. I find certain presumptions a little offensive, for instance, that if you are enlightened, informed and tolerant you must, by definition, reach the conclusions suggested by certain commentators as. in their minds, the mark of the tolerant person. The person who is really engaged in deep analysis will go much beyond correspondence columns and instant comment to look at the root of our society and what secures it. I hope that we would not charge those who have one view as being troglodytes and blind and promote the others as being the only people who care. There has been a slight hint of that in the debate, both inside and outside the House. Some Deputies in favour of change, perhaps for good reasons as they see them, are very unfairly accusing those who are trying to protect what they see as valuable in the status quo of being blind and prejudiced and not being prepared to think. These are accused of closing their minds and being influenced only by the Church. That is not true and it is presumptuous to suggest that only those who argue, for instance, for the dissolution of marriage are enlightened.

Some very loose phrases have come into use in recent times in discussing issues of this sort. One phrase which is a contradiction in terms is that of "private morality" and that is the judgment of deeper and better intellects than mine. There is no basis for the concept of private morality. There is basis for the concept of private behaviour. If we suggest that morality is a matter for each individual person, as if that person lived totally in isolation from the other individuals in society whom he or she affects or by whom he or she is affected, we are proposing the ridiculous. If people suggest that what they do is their business in matters of morality, whether to do with sexuality, public order, religious freedom or whatever, that would be ignoring the whole basis of morality. It is a consensus towards the standards of the mores—the customs, habits and consensus in society and this was never better described than in a treatise by the former Lord Chief Justice Devlin of England in The Enforcement of Morals. He deliberately used to describe himself for this purpose as being a lapsed Catholic. He was certainly one of the best thinkers in this area for a long time. He points out that “what makes a society of any sort is a communtiy of ideas, not only political ideas but also ideas about the way its members should behave and govern their lives. These latter ideas are its morals. Every society has a moral structure as well as a political one”. This treatise was published in 1975 and introduced, at my request, into the Oireachtas Library five years ago.

When we talk about private morality we are talking about private behaviour within private morality. Let us not tell people that they can develop their own code of morals and do what they like in terms of marriage without affecting the rest of society, for good or ill. I am not saying that change would be for ill, but let us recognise the reality that any change for any individual will impact on others with whom that individual is in contact.

I think there would be a consensus that the family is the fundamental unit. What are we doing to protect it? The first point is to give to that family the opportunity to work and the dignity which comes with it. There are great risks nowadays in unemployed families who are under particular pressures. These pressures are avoidable if we provide adequate work and income. We must promote and protect the positive elements within the family by doing much more to provide the dignity of work and security of income which families require. We must order our society in such a way as not to bring unnecessary pressures on families which give rise to marriage breakdown. When husbands lose their dignity and hang around the house, how can there be anything but tension? Those people deserve all our sympathy and must get our support in every possible way.

And wives who never had any dignity.

Perhaps it is right that Deputy Barnes should always be the watchdog on this, but she should not assume that we are not conscious of the dignity of wives. The case of which I am most aware was conveyed to me by a wife who told me about the way she had seen her husband lose all his dignity in the home while pretending to be a great fellow outside. I am as much concerned for the wife as the husband. Nobody has contributed more than the wife to the dignity of the home and the security of the family and the nation. For that reason we have special recognition in the Constitution of the special role of women within the home. The special respect which we accord to the woman in the home is well warranted.

I do not want to claim that I am holier than the rest but when I was Minister for Finance I took a decision, which I was not required to take under any Supreme Court decision, to give the same rights to women who work in the home as to women who work outside the home. The Murphy decision applied only to a wife working outside the home and I was only obliged to implement that decision. The judgment very deliberately did not address itself to the working wife in the home. Some other case might have arisen later.

It was about income tax. It could not have done so.

Deputy Barnes is not aware of what I and the Government did, but it was important.

I am very aware. I was part and parcel of that whole movement.

We were doing what was necessary to protect the home. We were giving the same tax allowances to married couples, irrespective of whether one or other of them worked outside the home. That is the kind of road we should follow to protect and promote the stability of the home. We were not forced to do it by judicial direction; we did it deliberately to protect that unit.

I want to associate myself with those who say that what we do here should not be under the control or direction of any Church. I would reject to the last breath in my body the direct influence of any Church on my thinking or the attempt to tell me as a legislator what I should do. I have said this publicly on more than one occasion and on television. I happen to be a Roman Catholic but I do not think that we as legislators should contemplate an attempt by the Church to which we belong to direct us. I do not think they do, to the extent that is often perceived. There may be individual bishops of individual Churches who tend to.

I was chairman of an all-party committee dealing with the implications of Irish unity set up in 1970. I was also a member of the original 1966 committee and I did not like the recommendation of that committee that a person married in one Church could have divorce if that Church allowed it, but could not have divorce if the Church did not allow it. I dissented from that recommendation because it was denominational, if not sectarian. The committee I chaired in 1970 was very representative and included the former Chief Justice, Mr. Tom O'Higgins, who is now at the European Court, Deputy Declan Costello, now Mr. Justice Costello, and others. We met representatives of many Churches openly, honestly and regularly and I became a personal friend of many on the bench of bishops of the Church of Ireland. We never met a representation from the Roman Catholic Hierarchy, with one exception. I remember the late Cardinal Conway asking, almost with deference, if it would be all right if he came to talk to us some day.

There may be some bishops of Churches who use the crozier but, if any Government bowed before them, that Government would not be worth consulting. There is a myth that the bishops are breathing down one's neck all the time. Let certain bishops or archbishops say what they wish. We have our position. It must be admitted that the factors which fashion people's thinking and give stability to society are influenced by the inherited prevailing religious ethos. This lapsed Catholic, if I may call him so, Lord Chief Justice Devlin, points that out fairly well. Anybody who looks at how laws are derived would see that point. I am not talking about a particular denomination.

The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 December 1985.

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