Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 May 1986

Vol. 366 No. 1

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 8: Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised Estimate).

Minister for Finance (Mr. J. Bruton)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,245,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The role of the Comptroller and Auditor General is one that is provided for in the Constitution. It is one of considerable importance. It is useful that we should have an opportunity to debate this Estimate in order to focus on the valuable work carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General in presenting reports on the correctness of expenditure. I should like to pay tribute to the work carried out by the Committee of Public Accounts under the chairmanship of Deputy Denis Foley in examining the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General and in bringing relevant matters to the attention of the public. The committee have been particularly active in this Dáil. As a result of the rapid succession of elections that occurred in the early part of this decade a substantial backlog of reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General were built up which had not been processed by the Committee of Public Accounts. I am glad to say that the present committee have worked very expeditiously in clearing this backlog and have produced a number of useful reports.

This Estimate provides for the salaries and allowances payable to the staff of the Comptroller and Auditor General and amounts to £1,245,000 together with associated travel and other expenses amounting to £80,000. There are approximately 91 people working for the Comptroller and Auditor General. However, there is an offset of these costs in that the Comptroller receives an income in the form of fees for certain audits that he carries out. The Comptroller's own salary is borne as a charge from the Central Fund. It does not have to be voted on by this House. He is not, therefore, subject to having his salary reduced or interfered with by the Government of the day by means of any changes that might be made in this House. His salary is provided for from the Central Fund in order to emphasise his independence.

Public accountability which is one of the main purposes of the activities of the Comptroller and Auditor General is an accepted concept in most nations. Ireland is no exception. I have said that the Comptroller's activities are provided for in the Constitution, which states that the Comptroller and Auditor General is required "to control on behalf of the State all disbursements and to audit all accounts of moneys administered by or under the authority of the Oireachtas". The basic legislation relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his functions is set out in the Exchequer and Audit Department Acts of 1866 and 1921 and under the Comptroller and Auditor General Act, 1923. It is interesting that this legislation, enacted at the very foundation of the State, was so well drafted that it has stood the test of time. It is a tribute to the Dáil which enacted it and many other pieces of legislation which have equally stood the test of time in trying circumstances and at great speed, with much less staff available to the Government of the day than at present.

It is under the Exchequer and Audit Department Acts, which are still extant, that the Comptroller audits the Appropriation Accounts and reports on them to the Dáil. His reports are considered by the Committee of Public Accounts. His functions require him to satisfy himself that moneys expended by Departments have been applied for the purposes intended by the Dáil. On his own initiative, with the support and encouragement of successive Committees of Public Accounts and the Department of Finance, the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn up his reports to embrace matters involving loss, waste, etc. and to that extent he has gone beyond the parameters of his strict narrowly defined legal role.

The House will probably recall that the Committee of Public Accounts last year made a special report to the Dáil in relation to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his functions and the resources which, in the opinion of the committee, should be allocated to him. Modern thinking on public sector auditing is that there should be management and performance audits focusing on the effectiveness of public expenditure programmes and the economy and efficiency of the procurement and utilisation of resources——

Mr. Wilson

Has the Minister a script?

Mr. J. Bruton

No, has the Deputy?

Mr. Wilson

The Minister is being smart.

Mr. J. Bruton

I do not think I am required to have a script. I am able to make my own speeches——

Mr. Wilson

I did not say so. I simply asked a polite question and I expected a civil reply.

Mr. J. Bruton

The same question was asked last night and the night before.

Mr. Wilson

I was not here last night.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Deputy was not here, but I do not think he should be taking up the time of the House asking questions to which answers have already been given.

Mr. Wilson

I will not be lectured to by the Minister.

Mr. J. Bruton

I had the pleasure of being lectured to by the Deputy for a year in UCD.

Mr. Wilson

It did the Minister a lot of good.

Mr. J. Bruton

He was most erudite during that year. I will not say how much of my education I owe to him. It is a good thing that the Opposition have sought discussion on the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is obviously useful to consider whether his functions might legally be extended to include a wider area of activity than at present being covered. The Department of Finance pay very close attention to the matters raised in reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General and of the committee. A special statement is presented to the Committee of Public Accounts setting out the action being taken by the Government and the Departments in regard to the matters raised. The committee play an extremely useful role in the elimination of waste and in ensuring that money is being spent properly. I am sure it is the hope of all Members of the House that this role can be enhanced in the years ahead. The staff of the Comptroller and Auditor General's Office do great work and I am glad to have this opportunity to pay a tribute to them.

Deputy B. Ahern rose.

Mr. Kelly

Is it not the case that the Minister will be called at 6.50 p.m.?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thought I had said that.

Mr. Kelly

Perhaps Deputy Ahern might allow time for other Deputies to contribute.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Deputy should bear in mind that not only has Deputy G. Mitchell offered but there are at least three Members on this side who wish to contribute. I suggest that if I take five minutes everybody else should take five minutes. First of all I associate myself with the Minister's remarks when he said that the work on the auditing of the accounts done under an Article of the Constitution has been extremely important and beneficial in regard to the accountability of the State. Article 33 of the 1937 Constitution followed legislation that had been there for several years, and I agree with the Minister that like much of the legislation enacted at that time it has stood up remarkably well. However, it could be argued that the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General should be extended. In the recent past it would have been desirable that the Comptroller and Auditor General could have gone more deeply into certain matters of expenditure and that he could have put forward reports on matters from which he is precluded at the moment, particularly when we are using computerised accounts systems in a number of Departments and are moving more and more in that direction. I think the accounts system of the State will take a major shake up in the next five years because of the welcome use of modern technology.

During the year there was some debate on the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General. There was a suggestion that he should report to the Oireachtas from time to time. The Leader of Fianna Fáil and other Members asked about expenditure by Departments and they wanted a definition of expenditure for departmental use and expenditure for party political purposes. We were anxious to have a debate so that the Comptroller and Auditor General could examine and report back to the House on the whole question of accountability for money spent by Governments with a distinction between departmental expenditure and expenditure for party political purposes. It has been highlighted by Members of this House. It came to our notice a number of times during the year that committees composed of members of the Government, of people who had nothing to do with the Government and, of civil servants, spent vast sums of money on advertising propaganda campaigns. In one sense it could be argued the advertisements were giving information to the public. That would be acceptable if what was involved was just a list setting out the increases in the budget, but when it transpired that this was not always the case we considered what was done was not reasonable. For example, one advertisement stated that the children's allowance book was worth more than it said, that it was worth an extra £3. The item was presented as an advertisement for party political purposes. The Communications Strategy Committee set up by the Government have a vast expenditure under their control. Does it mean that all Governments in the future can adopt the course taken in this instance? The Comptroller and Auditor General should clarify the matter in his annual report.

I wish the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff well. They do an excellent job. I should like to see an updating of legislation to deal with ever-increasing expenditure and perhaps this is something that might be considered by the various committees dealing with legislation.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I wish to join with Deputy Ahern in expressing appreciation of the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff. I am a member of the Committee of Public Accounts and I know at first hand the work they do. If the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is to have any meaning it should be a strong committee. However, it is very difficult to have a strong committee when it has only the part time services of one clerk compared with the facilities made available to the Committee on Public Expenditure and other committees. The Committee of Public Accounts is the senior committee. Every Parliament of this kind has such a committee, but in our case it has not been able to issue its report for a considerable time because of the lack of staff. That situation cannot be allowed to continue if we are to achieve anything with regard to accountability. There is an enormous backlog of material on tape that has not even been typed, let alone reported on.

The powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General should be extended. About three years ago in Britain they had a National Audit Office Act which gave greater powers to their Comptroller and Auditor General and streamlined his work and that of the Committee of Public Accounts. I said in this House about 18 months ago that we should look at the situation in Britain with a view to updating our legislation.

The Comptroller and Auditor General is an officer of the Constitution or of Parliament. He is not employed by the Government. If he works for anybody he works for this House. It is frustrating his work and his constitutional responsibilities if we do not allow for the work he carries out to be properly reported. He should be allowed to develop into the area of efficiency accounting and reporting. The leaders in this field, the Canadian Auditor General and the Canadian Committee of Public Accounts have research facilities and they make regular management reports to the committee who transmit them to their Parliament. If we are to develop along the lines the Minister for Finance has been advocating for a long time, the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the committee should be extended in line with the Canadian model.

Mr. Leyden

The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is slightly out-of-date. He should bring forward the report for 1985. The latest report available in the Library deals with 1984.

I wish publicly to bring to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General something mentioned also by Deputy Ahern which I regard as an abuse of public funds by a group whom I cannot find under any heading in his report, namely, the Communications Strategy Committee. I have in my possession a copy of minutes of a meeting on 20 March 1986 where the following persons attended: The Ministers for Labour, Social Welfare and Education; Frank Flannery who was known as one of the national handlers and a Government appointed member of the RTE Authority; Mr. Pat Heneghan, also a national handler and owner of Public Relations of Ireland, Limited, whose firm also works for the Department of Communications and who received fees of £17,712 in 1984 and £19,181 from the Department of the Public Service in 1984. Incidentally, he is also public relations officer for British Airways. They would have some involvement with the Department of Communications with regard to air routes and there may be a conflict of interest there; M. D'Arcy, S. Treacy, P. White, the Fine Gael Press Officer and Mr. F. Finlay, the representative of the Tánaiste in the Government Information Service. I will quote from the minutes of the meeting. Under the heading "Discussed" was the following:

A number of upcoming events. Noted that some had "good news" potential, others "bad news". Good news items; child benefit scheme, effect of budget on personal taxation, family income supplement. Bad news item: Food subsidies (timing — Bank holiday, Taoiseach away); higher paid people going back on PRSI; teachers' conferences.

Under the heading "Agreed to recommend" was the following:

(1) That the Taoiseach deal with food subsidies in a speech before he goes away (A separate note has been sent to the Taoiseach in this regard);

(2) Ensure that the Government decision on trade with South Africa gets maximum positive coverage on Tuesday next;

(3) Investigate possibility of price reductions in other areas (EC butter, petrol);

(4) Advertise forthcoming child benefit scheme and tax reductions — radio, TV and papers over Easter weekend;

(5) More publicity re home improvement scheme;

(6) Speeches emphasising brighter economic future.

Above note to be circulated to each member of the Government requesting co-operation where appropriate with advertising proposal.

I should like to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is here this evening, if there is a heading in the Appropriation Accounts dealing with the Communications Strategy Committee? If not, will he ensure that the people responsible, namely Fine Gael and some members of the Labour Party, are surcharged? There is a certain amount of trickery in relation to expenditure matters and this trickery is taking place on the part of Fine Gael and the Labour Party. They have misappropriated money and they are covering up expenditure. The Comptroller and Auditor General should carry out an immediate investigation of the trickery going on in Government agencies. The Minister for Finance cannot stand over the abuses taking place. Palms are being greased and it is the responsibility of the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out a full investigation of the allegations that Deputy Ahern and I have made. We want a reply to them in this House as quickly as possible.

Mr. Kelly

I put down a question that was answered by the Minister for Finance about four weeks ago relating to the annual reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In relation to the frequent points in his report where he indicates he is making further inquiries and where he is not satisfied with the explanation given for expenditure, I asked if the Minister might arrange for him to issue interim accounts setting out how he has got on with his further inquiries and what answer he had received. The Minister replied quite rightly — and I must admit that my question was unhappily phrased to this extent — that it was not for him to arrange anything for the Comptroller and Auditor General to do, that he is an independent constitutional officer and that as Minister he has not control over him and could not in any way instruct him. Of course I accept that.

Nevertheless I feel that if the Minister or anybody else in a responsible or reasonable context suggests something, the Comptroller and Auditor General, a more than usually responsible official, constitutionally secure as he is, will take it to heart. With every respect to him and his office, I would suggets that he might arrange within the ambit of his office a somewhat more adventurous system of reporting to the Dáil than the annual report. Quite apart from being delayed in the way which has been mentioned, which I understand is due to a staff shortage in his office, the Comptroller and Auditor General might see his way to publishing more frequent reports indicating the effect or product of this correspondence.

I will quickly give the House a concrete example of what I mean. In the 1983 report under the Office of Public Works subhead F.1, page XXVII of that report, he asked to be told why it was the OPW appeared to have ordered materials for maintenance and supply totalling £675,000, surplus to requirements. He asked to be told whether the Accounting Officer regarded it as acceptable that purchases should be kept so far above the level of current needs. As an ordinary member of the public I should like to have easy access to the reply he received to that question. I do not want to have to find out through the Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am not a member. I turned to his report for 1984 and found no reference to the subhead F.1 with which he had expressed dissatisfaction the previous year. It may be that he has since received satisfaction but it ought to be on some record, if not in an annual report, then in a quarterly report.

There is a new matter mentioned in the 1984 report, namely, the amazing overrun incurred by the Department of Tourism and Transport in regard to developments at Valentia which were originally estimated and sanctioned at £80,000 but ended up costing nearly £500,000. The Comptroller and Auditor General asked why tenders had not been invited for the additional works and he sought information regarding the nature of the improvement works and the original estimated cost.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy to conclude, please.

Mr. Kelly

With all respect — and the Comptroller knows that is not in any sense a feigned expression of politeness — I would like to see the answer to the question he asked expressed in black and white, not just in his annual report, which is not overdue although we are already well into 1986, but quickly. The public are entitled to it. With the greatest respect to him, his office and the Minister who shows such diffidence and fastidiousness towards him, it is time we had a different format of report from the Comptroller and Auditor General and a different format for presenting the fruits of the operation of his office to the public and Members of this House.

Mr. Foley

As Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, I have a special interest in this debate. Some time ago my committee took the unusual step of tabling a special report on the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The report was never debated in this House. I hope the Minister will use his good offices to improve the staffing position which was highlighted in the report. The matter has already been mentioned by another Deputy and I look forward to a response from the Minister.

The Comptroller and Auditor General has recently been concerned that he might not be able to carry out his duties in an efficient manner. From the evidence given before my committee we are satisfied that his concern in this matter is genuine and deeply felt and the committee formally endorse his sentiments. In any event, he is obliged under legislation governing the operation of his office to bring to notice any change in the nature and character of the examination carried out by him. He went on to refer to various issues in his report but he was mainly concerned with the staffing situation. I hope there will be a response to his request. I congratulate the Comptroller and Auditor General personally because he is doing tremendous work with a very limited staff. The staff must be included because, like him, they are dedicated officials.

The Comptroller has been highlighting points in the Appropriation Accounts going back to 1979. There is no doubt that his staff should be increased substantially. He has many options open to him. He could simply do the work formally but in fact he peruses every issue and reports on that basis. I am disappointed that reports have not been brought up to date due to laxity in the public accounts section where there are no full time officials, in contrast with the public expenditure committee who have full time officials. It is a very serious situation.

While in the short term the question of resources made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General has to be dealt with, there are other issues to be considered. The function of the office itself must be highlighted. It is covered by legislation. I understand the Minister for the Public Service visited a number of countries during the past few years to look at certain aspects of the operation of their public services. I am not sure what aspects he has been looking at, but I ask whether he has looked at the way their systems of public accountability operate, how their national audit offices are constituted and provided with resources and how their parliamentary committees contribute to the creation of an effective framework of public accountability. These issues must be brought out. If the Minister gained any information on these matters I hope he will report back. It is time to update the legislation dealing with the Comptroller's office and position.

Mr. Hilliard

I should like to be associated with the complimentary remarks in regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff. I appreciate and understand the many difficulties with which they are confronted. He is not afraid to highlight irregularities within various Departments. The problem is that there is little or no follow-up to this information. The information is stale by the time it arrives at the Committee of Public Accounts or the Committee on Public Expenditure and this is a major problem. It is difficult to get committee members interested in irregularities which occurred two or three years previously and to get satisfactory solutions to them. Some form of special committee should be set up by the Government to follow up immediately these irregularities which the Comptroller and Auditor General identifies so that we can get more positive results. He is carrying out his duties well and doing a good job. He is not at fault. In the reports for 1983 and 1984 the Comptroller requested the Government to give him more staff and assistance. There is nothing in the 1986 Estimates to give him that extra provision.

It is hypocritical of the Government to seek improvements in that area if they are not prepared to give the resources to the person who is capable and willing to investigate these things but has not the time to do it.

Many of our public accounts are in arrears. The accounts of health boards and local authorities and various other bodies which should not be are in arrears and the Comptroller and Auditor General has made that very clear in his last two reports. I would like to see the Government tackling this by providing the Comptroller and Auditor General with the small amount of money that is needed to bring the accounts of the State up to date. No businessman here could run his business on accounts which he gets six months after the close of the year. I appeal to the Minister on behalf of the Comptroller and Auditor General to give him extra staff immediately.

Minister for Finance (Mr. J. Bruton)

I thank Members for their contributions. I was interested in the suggestions by two Deputies that the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General should be extended. I have decided to review this legislation to see if proposals could be prepared to enhance the legal powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This will be the first major review of this legislation since 1923 when it was first initiated. It would be a useful addition and I invite the Committee of Public Accounts to submit their proposals to me on how the legislation might be improved. In the context of this legislation, it might also be useful to consider the relationship between the Committee on Public Expenditure and the Committee of Public Accounts. The Committee on Public Expenditure might also like to make suggestions in this regard although, of course, the committee solely responsible for considering the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General are the Committee of Public Accounts.

Deputy John Kelly made a number of points about following up reports. In the first place these reports are followed up by the Minister responsible and by the Department of Finance. It is also open to any Deputy who, on reading the committee report, has noted an irregularity reported thereon, to ask a Dáil Question of the Minister responsible as to what is being done on foot of this. There is a very good mechanism there for both the Government and Dáil Members individually to ensure that a follow up occurs. Where the Comptroller and Auditor General himself would wish to bring out additional reports, an update on what has happened in regard to the matters raised in the previous report, that is a matter essentially for him, being an independent officer. It is open to the Committee of Public Accounts to make suggestions and that is a matter I am sure they will consider.

I now come to the points mentioned by Deputy Leyden and Deputy Ahern about advertising. The giving of public information about what the Government are doing in a fashion that will arrest people's attention so that they will actually read it and make use of the information requires the employment of advertising skills. Clearly the production of an advertisement containing public information which is interesting and which people will read is a more appropriate use of public money than preparing an advertisement that is presented in a boring way and which nobody will read. Clearly it is sensible for the Government to use whatever professional advice they can to ensure that any information they have to give, as part of their responsibility to give the public information, is given in a form that is actually read by people and absorbed by them.

Mr. Leyden

Is the Minister on the Communications Strategy Committee?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Continue, Minister.

Mr. J. Bruton

To come to the question of the Communications Strategy Committee, I do not see anything wrong in any member of the Government having meetings with people who could advise usefully on matters that are of interest to them. There is nothing wrong with that.

Mr. B. Ahern

Other than that they are making decisions to spend public money.

Mr. J. Bruton

The decisions to spend public money are made by the Ministers responsible.

Mr. Leyden

No, they are not.

Mr. J. Bruton

Any Deputy who is concerned about any expenditure of public money has the opportunity to object to it in the normal course of events, in the Estimates to date or by means of a parliamentary question. But it is Ministers and Ministers alone, who are responsible for the expenditure of public money. They may, as I am sure is the case with other administrations, bring in other people to advise people before they make a decision. There is nothing unusual or wrong about that. But I can assure the House that any advertisements that have been placed by this Government have always been placed with a view to imparting useful information to the public and, indeed, we have been extremely careful to avoid any content in the advertisements which would be considered to be party political in its nature.

I am not quite sure that at all times the previous administration was equally careful. I can recollect a series of advertisements in regard to the administration of justice where Deputy Leyden's colleague, Deputy Seán Doherty, appeared personally in the advertisements, walking from the horizon towards the camera to express his interest that the public should support the Garda Síochána. I am not quite sure what additional public information Deputy Doherty's personal appearance on that advertisement added to the store of public knowledge. It would appear to me, if information was necessary on that matter, that information, could easily have been given without the Minister personally appearing. That is not something that has happened under the present Government.

Mr. B. Ahern

If the children's allowance went up, every mother in the country knew it went up.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Government have not taken television time to allow their own members to appear on television in the fashion that occurred under the previous administration.

Mr. Leyden

The Government did not have any national handlers to——

Mr. J. Bruton

It may well be because we take the care to get good advice before making decisions——

Mr. B. Ahern

The Minister pays for it.

Mr. J. Bruton

——that we do not make errors of the kind made by the previous administration in running a series of advertisements like the ones promoting Deputy Terry Leyden's constituency colleague publicly at, it would appear, the expense of the public.

Mr. Leyden

How much has been spent on this?

Mr. J. Bruton

I have not had an opportunity to investigate who paid for those advertisements, but I have not heard that they were paid for by Fianna Fáil. It may well be indeed that they were paid for by the taxpayer.

Mr. Leyden

They were paid for legitimately.

Mr. J. Bruton

In view of the fact that Deputy Leyden has raised this matter I now propose to investigate it because I am sure he would be interested in hearing who paid for those advertisements that promoted Deputy Seán Doherty personally on television night after night for a considerable period of time.

Mr. Leyden

This is a red herring.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is a Roscommon herring, caught in the Shannon. I feel this is a piece of archaeology that Deputy Leyden would perhaps wish I had not engaged in. It is more interesting to discover mottes and baileys and ancient monuments of that kind. But this is an ancient monument which still remains on public record and I am glad he has given me an opportunity to bring it back to public notice.

Mr. Leyden

The Minister is sinking to a deep level now.

Mr. J. Bruton

Any question that any Member of the House wishes to raise about the advertising budget of the present Government can be raised by means of a parliamentary question or by its Members on the Committee of Public Accounts. If the Deputies have any queries to raise I suggest they should do so. I suggest that, while they are at it, they should also ask questions about the advertisements put in by the previous Government urging people to support their local cop.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is Vote No. 8 agreed?

Mr. Leyden

The Government are wasting public funds.

Mr. Hilliard

I am surprised that the Minister did not refer to the lack of staff in the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Mr. J. Bruton

Sorry, I did not get around to that.

Mr. B. Ahern

Under what Ministry does the communications strategy come? What Minister has repsonsibility for that area, so that I will know to whom to address my questions? Is it Finance?

Mr. J. Bruton

I will give the Deputy a little advice——

Mr. B. Ahern

The Minister said to put down a question.

Mr. J. Bruton

If the Deputy wants to ask about advertising budgets he can ask under any of the Votes from which the advertisements were paid. If the advertisement is in respect of child benefit, then the appropriate place to inquire would be the Department of Social Welfare.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Mr. B. Ahern

There is a problem——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Mr. Leyden

The Minister stirred up a hornet's nest tonight.

Question put and agreed to.