Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1986

Vol. 368 No. 10

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 9, 7 and 23. By agreement, the Dáil shall meet at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m. Also by agreement, Nos. 1, 9 and 7 shall be taken without debate. Also by agreement, Votes 3, 5 and 6 shall be debated together and a general debate may arise on these Estimates.

Also by agreement, and notwithstanding the Order of the Dáil of 29 April 1986 the following arrangements shall apply in relation to these Estimates:

1. The speech of the Taoiseach and the Leader of the main Opposition party shall not exceed one hour.

2. The speech of each subsequent speaker shall not exceed 30 minutes, with the exception of the final speaker who shall be a member of Government, and who shall be called on to conclude the debate at 3.15 p.m. tomorrow.

3. If a division is challenged on these Estimates, the taking of such division shall be postponed until 4 p.m. tomorrow.

Mr. Haughey

On the Order of Business, before agreeing may I just ask why No. 1 reappears on the Order Paper today? We had some hoo-ha about it yesterday. In fact we divided the House on it. We were made to divide the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was necessary to get the concurrence of Seanad Éireann to making a formal order. That was done yesterday and now it is back with us.

Mr. Haughey

Even on these little matters this Government do not seem to be able to order their business effectively. Would I be unduly harsh if I dismissed this lot as the Government of the gaffes?

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

It does not pay to try to be clever. The Deputy does not know his facts.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. I am calling on Deputy Mac Giolla. He is entitled to a hearing.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I wish to express The Workers' Party's disagreement with the Order of Business as arranged this morning. We objected yesterday in regard to the Building Control Bill. This morning there is an additional one, the Children (Care and Protection) Bill which is not to be debated in this House but in a committee of which we are not members and which we are told we can get on to if we apply to Deputy Taylor. I wish to express again to the Chair my concern that this is becoming a familiar method of procedure in the House because we as a party would be excluded from Second Stage debates on various Bills that come before this House.

We will be excluded from putting down amendments to such Bills and from voting on them which is something that we as a party have done continuously on Bills that have come in here. We have treated them all seriously, debated them, put down amendments, participated in voting and so on. Under this procedure I understand we will not have that facility and we will be allowed in only at the discretion of some other Deputy in the House.

Mr. G. Mitchell

On the Order of Business, I would like to similarly protest that on the Adjournment Debate the backbench Deputies will not be able to get in while The Workers' Party will have hours and hours of exposure and they only have two Deputies in the House.

Proinsias De Rossa

In relation to the matter raised by Deputy Mac Giolla, I understand that this is the eighth motion put before this House this week for debate. The procedure apparently is that these motions are brought forward and we are not allowed to debate them. In particular, the Children (Care and Protection) Bill has been referred to a committee which——

Mr. Haughey

On a point of order, we had all this yesterday morning and The Workers' Party delayed the proceedings of the House by about 20 minutes.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Procedure must be put to all sides of the House.

Mr. Haughey

I suggest that Deputy De Rossa is not in order in raising that matter again. Two Deputies of the Workers' Party are now making speeches.

An Ceann Comhairle

Every Deputy in the House can make a speech if he or she is in order.

Proinsias De Rossa

I uphold the right of all Deputies. I regret that the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party regards the exercise by any Deputy of his rights in this House as a waste of time. That is a deplorable attitude.

Mr. Haughey

Rubbish. The Workers' Party get more time than they are entitled to.

Proinsias De Rossa

We get whatever we are entitled to under Standing Orders. I am entitled, Deputy Haughey, to stand up here and express my views in relation to the business of the House.

Mr. Haughey

The Deputy did that yesterday morning.

Proinsias De Rossa

Do you wish to deny me that right?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa should address the Chair.

Proinsias De Rossa

We are dealing with item No. 9 on the day's Order of Business. The person I can see wasting most time of the House is yourself, Deputy, standing up making ridiculous points, simply name-calling the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa should address the Chair and cease to be provocative.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am asking the Government to allow a debate on a motion which is before us this morning. That is the reference of the Children (Care and Protection) Bill to a special committee, which has not even yet been established and whose membership is not known. In the absence of the Government's allowing that, I can only advise Deputy Haughey and others that I intend to challenge that.

Mr. Prendergast

Can that matter be replied to?

An Ceann Comhairle

You cannot reply; you can contribute.

Mr. Prendergast

I do not intend to deal with that matter, a Cheann Comhairle, but I should like——

An Ceann Comhairle

If this is another matter, we had better leave it for the moment, please.

Mr. Haughey

I just want to say that on this side of the House we fully approve of these two Bills being referred to special committees because it is a well known and very effective way of dealing with complicated technical Bills. We shall participate fully in those committees, as every Deputy in the House will be entitled to. On the question of allowing people time, I do not think that The Workers' Party have any cause whatsoever to be aggrieved.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Haughey

Deputy Mac Giolla, as the leader of a two-Deputy party, is always allowed equal time with the Taoiseach and myself on all important matters where leaders of parties contribute. He has no grounds for complaint on that score. In fact, my colleagues in the front bench here have much more ground for complaint on the question of the allocation of time in those areas.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister of State to conclude.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. F. O'Brien)

I should like to make the point that referring Bills to special committees is not something new. It is an excellent way to order business in the House. This is rather complex legislation and when put to the special committee it will be teased out as such legislation should be. We had the Misuse of Drugs Bill, the Family Home Protection Bill and the Wildlife Bill all referred to special committees and the system worked very effectively, making the best use of this House. Anybody saying that we are abusing this House just does not know what we are about in ordering business. We should follow this system far more than we are doing at present.

Mr. Haughey

Hear, hear.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I just want——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the debate concluded, Deputy.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I just want to ask a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

You may ask a question, but I shall not allow another debate.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I am not raising any issue as to the right to pass a Bill to a committee, but why some Deputies are not allowed the same rights as other Deputies when these Bills go to committees.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is another day's work.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Rights of Deputies must not be eroded.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Barrett,

Dún Laoghaire): On a point of order, these statements are continually being made in the House without being corrected.

Mr. Haughey

The Chair should stop them.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): Every Deputy in this House has the same rights. What the Deputy is really talking about is the size of his party. Every Deputy has the same right to go to any committee that he or she wants.

Tomás Mac Giolla

But, a Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I allowed Deputy Mac Giolla to ask a question and he will now resume his seat.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Shall I have the right to put down amendments to this Bill?

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): Would the Deputy read Standing Orders on regulations?

Proinsias De Rossa

I wish to ask a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It had better be short. I shall deal with the other Deputy's problem later on.

Mr. R. Burke

That is a problem that the Chair cannot solve.

Proinsias De Rossa

Deputy Barrett states that we have the same rights——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a question.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am simply putting the question in its context. He says that we have the same rights. Shall we have the right to place amendments to the Bill and vote on those amendments?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may raise that another time.

Tomás Mac Giolla

This is the place to ask it, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am responsible for the business of the House and I am putting the questions now.

Proinsias De Rossa

The answer to my question is that we will not. That is a clear statement of fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would ask Deputy De Rossa to please resume his seat. Are the arrangements for taking item No. 1 agreed? Agreed. Are the arrangements for taking Item No. 7 agreed? Agreed. Are the arrangements for taking Item 23 agreed? Agreed. Is it also agreed that the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 4 p.m.? Agreed. I am now putting the question: "That item No. 9 be taken today without debate."

Tomás Mac Giolla

Vótáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies who support the motion rise in their places?

Deputies De Rossa and Mac Giolla rose in their places.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Deputies have risen, according to Standing Orders, I declare the question carried.

Mr. Prendergast

May I ask the Taoiseach, in the absence of the Minister for the Gaeltacht, if he is aware of an assertion by Udarás na Gaeltachta that they are held up in creating 900 posts due to a shortfall of £2 million?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not on the Order of Business.

Mr. Prendergast

What provision, if any, has he to remedy that position?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business. I must rule that question out of order.

Miss Flaherty

May I repeat my request to raise on the Adjournment the desire of the VEC to build a pobalscoil in Ballymun?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.