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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 23 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 12

Export Promotion (Amendment) Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is twofold:

—On the one hand, it creates a licensing system for the special trading houses envisaged in the 1987 Finance Act — a system which will ensure that the valuable tax concessions applying to those trading houses are used solely for the purpose of creating new exports for this country.

—On the other hand, the Bill raises the ceiling on Córas Tráchtála's aggregate level of grant-in-aid. The existing ceiling of £160 million has now been exhausted, and the new ceiling of £260 million will be adequate for the next few years at least.

Before commenting in detail on the specific matters addressed in the Bill, I would like to say something about the general framework these measures fit into.

Deputies will need no reminding of the crucial importance of exports to the programme for national recovery. However, the point does need to be made yet again because as a nation we are still not aware of just how much we depend on exports.

Over half our GNP is created by exports — a level that is higher than in major exporting nations like the UK, the United States and even Japan. Ireland is now above all a trading nation, and our survival and our growth depend almost entirely on our ability to improve continually our performance in selling our goods and services abroad. Exporting is the very core of our economy.

At the moment, the news from the export front is good. For the month of May, our exports topped the £1 billion mark for the first time ever. We are on course to reach £10 billion for the year as a whole — which would be another record. Even more significantly, our trade balance continues to improve — we are increasing our exports faster than we are increasing our imports. The favourable balance for the first five months of 1987 is over £400 million, well over double the surplus for the same period last year. Taking the past 12 months, the favourable trade balance is running at a level of over 10 per cent of our export sales — and that ratio is continuing to rise quite sharply.

This is healthy and should give us confidence as we look towards the future. But when we look behind these encouraging figures we find plenty to be concerned about and plenty of work for us to do.

What the figures do not reveal is the relative weakness of Irish-owned companies in the export field. The overwhelming mass of our exports come from foreign-owned companies; overwhelmingly, the growth in our exports has come from those companies too. It must be our priority to see that Irish-owned companies also play a full part in bringing about export growth.

We need the foreign-owned companies, of course, and we need them to grow a lot more in the future. But if we want to see our economic objectives realised, if we want to create the employment and the prosperity for our people that we aspire to, we must ensure that Irish companies are not left behind in the exports race.

There are, of course, many Irish-owned companies which are very successful exporters but the point is there are not enough. Our twin aims must be to get those who are exporting already to export more and to get those who are not exporting to take the plunge.

Some Irish companies are totally dependent on the home market. Many, indeed, were created solely for the purpose of serving that market. The days when that approach offered a secure future are gone. Increasingly now, the home market is wide open to foreign competition, competition from companies that can offer lower prices through vast economies of scale. We cannot protect Irish companies from that competition but we can and must help them to compete in the wider markets that are now open to us.

Because so many Irish companies are very small, they have particular problems when it comes to exporting. Irish companies must get into exporting earlier than equivalent companies in other countries. They must embark earlier on this task that demands special skills, and demands long-term commitment of money and other resources. In some of the most important markets, language skills are also vital.

That is the reality we have to address, and we must focus our investment in exports on that reality. The whole thrust of what we do for exports must be geared to helping indigenous Irish companies to be successful in exporting.

Where do the special trading houses fit into this? They will fill what I see as a structural gap in our export effort. They will offer to Irish companies export marketing skills that they are not in a position to provide themselves, or not yet in a position to provide.

We have to face the fact that some companies have exportable products but do not have any resources to commit to exporting. We have to face the fact that some manufacturing companies are able to cover only a few key export markets, and have to turn their back on smaller opportunities in other countries in order to concentrate on their priorities.

On the other hand, we have to recognise that there is now in Ireland a considerable reservoir of export marketing experience. There are people with special knowledge of certain markets, or who possess certain language skills that are in rare supply. Many of these talents are under used at present, not least because up to now we have been penalising rather than encouraging them.

Suppose, for instance, someone with special knowledge of a particular world market like chemicals, or a particular national market like Portugal, decided to set up a company specialising in exporting Irish goods into that market. The existence of the company would be welcome to those manufacturers who were not able to do the exporting themselves, but, though the company would be selling Irish manufactured goods and creating valuable new exports, the enterprise would be taxed unfavourably, compared with a manufacturer of those goods.

Small wonder, then, that very few such companies exist at present. We now want to provide a positive incentive for people to go into this kind of business. We want to make it worth people's while to act as exporters for Irish manufacturers.

The incentives are now in place; they were contained in section 29 of the Finance Act. Special trading houses will get the concessionary corporation tax rate of only 10 per cent, which up to now has been restricted almost entirely to manufacturing companies. Investment in special trading houses will also be eligible for income tax relief under the business expansion scheme, so making it much easier for these enterprises to find start-up capital in the form of risk-taking equity. In addition, special trading houses will be eligible for assistance from Córas Tráchtála on exactly the same basis as if they were manufacturing the goods they are exporting.

The Bill before the House this evening has the purpose of setting up a licensing system so that these very substantial incentives are used only for the purpose the Government intended when we introduced them.

Let us not be in any doubt about this. We are not creating a device for creative accountants to play with. We are creating a framework to create additional exports for this country. We are fully determined to restrict the enjoyment of these incentives to bona fide trading houses that will fill the structural gap that exists in our exporting system.

It is my intention that the licensing system will be simple, fair and fast. Its objective will not be to put an obstacle in the way of enterprise, but merely a fence to keep the cowboys out.

The system proposed is outlined in section 2. The procedure will be that companies seeking the status of a special trading house will have to make application for a licence to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. To support that application, the company will have to provide information about their proposed capitalisation, their general qualifications and expertise, and their business and marketing plans.

The applications will be assessed by the Office of Trade and Marketing, after consultation with Córas Tráchtála. CTT will be required to make a recommendation to the Minister on each application. It is obvious, that the on-the-ground expertise of CTT should be fully availed of in this evaluation process. They are the closest to the export marketplace and is right that the Minister in making a decision should have access to CTT's informed view on the proposal.

Section 2 also provides that the Minister can seek further information about an applicant's suitability. One purpose of this is to avoid the need to impose an excessively detailed disclosure requirement on all applicants, whether relevant to their individual needs or not. A further aspect of section 2 that I would like to refer to is the provision for an appeals procedure. I am sure Deputies will agree that it is right that such a safeguard should exist.

My office will shortly be issuing an information brochure outlining the licensing procedure, but I should like to take this opportunity to stress that I have no intention of creating a monster of red tape. We want to encourage the setting up of special trading houses, and we want to see them in action soon. From the response we have had to the idea since it was first mooted, I am in no doubt at all that there is both a real need for this initiative and a readiness to get involved on the part of people with the necessary expertise.

The special trading houses will not, of course, be a panacea. They are a specific response to a particular problem, which is only one aspect of the overall export challenge that faces us. With that in mind, I now invite Deputies to turn to the second element of this Bill. At section 3 it provides for an increase of £100 million in the aggregate level of grant-in-aid for Córas Tráchtála.

The question of increasing this aggregate figure arises every few years as an existing ceiling is reached through annual allocations to CTT in the Book of Estimates. The last increase was made in 1983, when the current level of £160 million was set. The increase now proposed is expected to be enough to cover CTT's activities for about four further years. The measure we are no discussing will not, of course, affect the annual estimates exercise, which will continue to provide the House with the opportunity to consider the allocations to CTT in a particular year.

As the House will be aware, moneys provided annually to CTT are expended on a wide range of support to exporters. These cover advice and basic information; specialist services in the field of market research; incentive grants to individual exporters entering new markets; and the organisation of national stands at international trade fairs. In addition, CTT are involved in educational and training measures aimed at improving marketing skills in Irish companies.

All of these services combine to provide a comprehensive support service to our exporters, and the provision at section 3 is necessary to enable CTT to continue to provide these supports. Indeed, the matter is of some urgency because the existing ceiling has now been reached.

Since becoming Minister with responsibility for trade and marketing I have been reviewing the policy and activities of CTT, with the particular aim of focusing our investment on the encouragement and development of exporting by Irish-owned companies. There is a need, in particular, to encourage Irish companies to approach exporting in a strategic way, carefully planning for the long term their involvement in the markets that offer opportunities for them. CTT can, and must, play the major role in getting this message across, and in my current review of CTT's activities I am considering how best the shift to strategically-planned marketing can be accelerated.

It had been my hope that this Bill would reflect the outcome of my review of CTT's current strategy. However, the two main provisions in the Bill before the House cannot wait until the other side of the summer, and so it was necessary to bring them before the House on their own. I would like to assure Deputies that the overall restructuring of our export effort is one of the four main tasks that I see before the office for trade and marketing, and which I outlined to the House in my speech on the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce last month.

I am satisfied that this Bill will make a very worth-while contribution to the future expansion of Irish exports and I therefore recommend it to the House for approval.

I should like to take this opportunity formally in the House to congratulate Deputy Séamus Brennan on his appointment with responsibility for the office of trade and marketing. He is not often in the House; his Minister is usually here at Question Time. I understand he is the first Minister of State with responsibility in this area and I wish him well. I will judge his performance not by the number of times he gets his photograph in the papers but by the output from his office and the offices under his aegis.

This is a very simple and straightforward Bill of four sections. It does not involve a great deal of complexity. However, it is not entirely satisfactory that this Bill was circulated to Deputies so recently and taken so quickly. It was only on the Order of Business today that the Order for Second Stage was taken and Second Stage is taken on the same day. That is quite unusual in the business of this House. I am not suggesting that it is disorderly in any way but perhaps in future we would be given the courtesy of more time to consider Bills given that this is a confined debate and there are only three hours for Committee Stage tomorrow.

The Deputy should have voted against it.

We have less time in this House due to the activities of the smaller parties and their disruption of the Order of Business every morning but perhaps after some months of rest during the summer they will settle down.

We like to participate like all minorities.

Of course.

We hope to be slightly larger in about four weeks time.

Are the two Deputies endeavouring to launch Deputy Ivan Yates on his speech?

Sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. He was being provocative.

They were being provocative. I always respond to any provacation. This is a limited debate and there are a number of things I want to say. Fine Gael will not be opposing this Bill on Second Stage and we will not be putting down any amendments. That is an act of goodwill on our behalf in relation to a number of aspects of the Bill. That does not mean that we do not have certain reservations and misgivings about it. I would like to put on the record a number of points specifically relating to trading houses.

I was waiting to see in the Finance Bill a definition of a "trading house". I noticed that from the Second Stage to the Committee Stage it moved from being a "trading house" to being a "special trading house". Apart from section 27 there were no provisions in the Bill with regard to definitions. In this Bill for the first time there is a suggested definition of a "trading house". It relies on what is defined as export goods as per section 39 of the Finance Act, 1980. Is it possible under this Bill that trading houses could be established and get tax breaks and other concessions on the basis of reexporting imported goods? Is there any element of bogus merchandising corporations being set up and is the terminology used explicit enough? Will it affect the output of indigenous companies only or will Irish goods with a given percentage of Irish raw materials in them be affected also? What will be the definition of indigenous and what will be the definition of the goods that are to be exported? I do not wish this legislation to be excessively restrictive but given the tax breaks that go with this and the fact that the Minister and the Department plan that these should be the flagships of our marketing methods on the export side, there should be no loophole whatsoever.

My major reservations about the trading houses are two-fold. First, there is little evidence to suggest that the establishment of these special trading houses will generate new export sales. They are far more likely to displace existing export marketing operations. Therefore, it is very questionable whether the generous tax concessions and extra bureaucracy attached to these bodies will be justified. Unfortunately, in the Minister's speech, there is nothing but lip service and well meaning rhetoric; there is no factual or technical evidence to suggest that this will create new sales. We all know, and I will refer to this later, that 80 per cent of small Irish manufacturing firms do not export at all, including Northern Ireland as an export market. We know the problems are there. We know that they have to export earlier in the lifetime of the company. That is all there in the data base of information we have. What we do not have is the information to say that their existing methods of selling vis-àvis an agent, vis-à-vis a distributor, will not be replaced by these trading corporations. We do not have the evidence to say that the existing CTT schemes, whereby there are subsidised personnel and marketing graduates placed in the export market itself, will be found wanting by the trading corporations. I suggest there is no evidence — and I will come to the evidence to the contrary later — that we need more resources on marketing, we need more people on the ground selling Irish goods. We know small companies cannot afford an export presence but that does not mean that other people will be able to do this by way of a corporation. Perhaps the Minister would say exactly what evidence he has to suggest that the success of these trading corporations will not be based on displacing existing trading operations.

Another point of great concern relates to past experience in this area. The Minister of State will be aware that some years ago the National Trading Corporation, as it was called, was established whereby some very large companies were involved in a once-off venture. They set up a very expensive office in Singapore and an expensive head office in Dublin and within a matter of months they went bust. Given the track record of the people involved it was a monumental failure. I do not wish them any ill. I would love to have seen them succeed but the fact is that they did not succeed. It was based on the same concept as these trading houses in this respect. If, for example, Deputy Keating is selling handbags, Deputy Higgins is selling soap and Deputy Michael Noland is selling detergents and we are operating as a trading corporation, instead of selling as an agency basis in France or Germany and getting a 5 per cent margin for everything I sell of their products, what I as a trading corporation am asked to do is to buy all their products, take all the risks; they are now my products and I go and sell them.

I would prefer to sell my services.

That may well be the case and many small companies will be in that position. Where they have no presence in a particular export market they might be delighted for me to buy them but the price might be arguable. The point I am making is that there are very few people who are prepared to take on the full risk of the full cost of the product, the full overheads of exporting it and the full risk of getting paid for it and doing so profitably. All the evidence suggests that it would be far more successful to do it on a commission basis.

While I have given an example of a failure of a trading corporation, I would like to give an example of a success of a commission basis of export sales and that is the Irish Export Agency. This is a nonprofit making organisation which was established by CTT and during the past ten years has generated £63 million worth of export sales of Irish goods. It has been achieved without incurring any loss to the Exchequer and it has been done on an agency basis, mostly sales in Libya and Iraq. That track record is the best way to go in terms of boosting Irish exports. What I am saying basically is that I am not against these trading houses. I believe they will have some success but their success will be limited to Third World countries, that they will be successful mostly in the area of displacing existing export promotions and methods and will not create new businesses. The only acid test, and the only yardstick whereby these can be considered, is the amount of new export sales they can generate. Otherwise we have created an expensive bureaucracy, we have created an expensive tax concession for something that would have happened in any case.

Section 3 of the Bill increases the provisions for Córas Tráchtála by £100 million. On the Second Stage debate we arew given a fair degree of latitude to look at areas of CTT's performance, or lack of it, and to make some general comments about export marketing. Perhaps with a new Government, we do not know how shortlived, and with a new officeholder we will give him the benefit of some ideas we have in this area. First there is an inextricable link between good marketing and high quality. Unless you have a high quality product that stands up to the OECD table of competitiveness, no matter what resources are expended on marketing, it will not be successful. Ireland's problem has been that in the OECD table of 22 countries we have always languished around 17th on that table, whether it is the quality of the goods, delivery on time, after care service or whatever.

Another thing we must do is create an Irish quality symbol. Let it be a very simple quality symbol, for example, a harp or something else uniquely Irish. Anything that satisfies either the Irish Quality Control Association or a particular section of the Department of Industry and Commerce that it has attained a certain level of quality should have an official stamp. This particular logo or marking brand would help to sell Irish exports because it would be unique to Ireland and no matter who sold the goods it would show that as an Irish Government we were putting such an emphasis on quality that we recognised products that met that standard. Companies that got the symbol and traded with that logo would then get preferential treatment for grants all along the line. The best way to export anything, whether it is a tourism holiday or a manufactured product, is to have satisfied customers from New York to Singapore saying that they are satisfied with that product. I ask the Minister to pursue the question of an Irish quality symbol.

Second, in the Minister's export marketing drive, at a time of scarce resources, one always has to establish priorities. It is very important in terms of overall export marketing that the West German market be established as a number one priority. I say that for a number of reasons. Germany has the greatest purchasing power among EEC member states. It is the second largest importer in the world after the United States, and Ireland has already established a favourable trading record there. For instance, in 1985 the trade balance with Germany was £225 million. There is a real potential for jobs and extra output and extra sales. If Ireland sold as much per capita to the West Germans as we did to the Dutch we would create £1 billion worth of trade that could be sustained and repeated every year. Different job figures could be put on that: I will not put a figure but we are talking about a very sizeable number of jobs. I believe the type of products we have, particularly among our flagship companies, lend themselves to the German market. It must also be remembered that Germany is an industrial nation and in terms of subsupply to the industrial market, Germany is the third largest supplier of goods. Imports from Germany in 1985 amounted to £730 million. Germany is a major investor in Ireland and we already have good links with them. Germany is a source of substantial tourism revenue to this country, being our third most important source of tourism revenue. In 1983 it amounted to £24 million.

I believe it is possible to penetrate the German market, given the changes in the internal market and given their high spending patterns due to their high disposable incomes per capita. They have the money. We have to learn that in Ireland we have cost factors; we have a 10 per cent cost disadvantage in this country because we are an island surrounded by water and on the periphery of Europe. We must go for the premium pricing markets. There is no point in the Minister, or his predecessors, or CTT saying that exports will reach £10 billion mark this year. Much of that is transfer pricing by the big multinationals who have been induced here by the IDA through a facet of industrial policy, but it is not a marketing strength. I know the Minister acknowledged in his speech that our export performance is very uneven. We have the good and the bad, the good being those who are in the transfer pricing. However, West Germany is an area where companies such as Waterford Glass, Guinness and the large Irish indigenous companies can benefit. I believe a particular strategy must be drawn up for West Germany.

The second point the Minister must recognise — he referred to it in his speech — is that small indigenous firms are our area of weakness. As I said earlier, 80 per cent of them do not export and would not even think of it. They are purely concentrating on the local market and that is their weakness. In addition, they have management weaknesses in that the person who owns a business runs it, is marketing and personnel manager and financial controller. That is the identity of a small firm but it is also its weakness. We must get some concise strategy for these small firms. There is no point in exhorting them to export if it is not going to happen because no amount of lip service will resolve that problem. I have a very simple suggestion for the Minister. The simplest market for small firms to penetrate is a market where people speak the same language, drive on the same side of the road and have similar lifestyles and bureaucracy, that is, the British market and particularly the Northern Ireland market. A special CTT initiative is required to zone in on the UK and Northern Ireland market specifically.

Small firms have a problem with attitude; they do not think of the export market. I would like to co-ordinate the efforts of chambers of commerce and different organisations. We should bring them on a trip to London, Manchester and Belfast to introduce them to contacts there. I know CTT are doing some of this in a very small way, which in my view is totally unsatisfactory. I suggest, for example, that a group of small business people from, say, the Chamber of Commerce in Athlone who would never have exported but who would have products with potential be introduced to contacts in London and perhaps 5, 10 or even 20 per cent of them could subsequently have follow-up business. Our first priority must be to target the West German market as they are a high spending market and as our second priority to encourage the 80 per cent of small firms who do not export at all to zone in on the UK and Northern Ireland market.

Last week I tabled a Dáil question on resources to the Minister last week. I think it was quite striking that over the past nine years £177 million was allocated by the IDA to established manufacturing firms that subsequently went out of business. There were 34,000 job approvals that were granted by the IDA that were subsequently taken back. In the United States and in other countries they recognise that failure is a reasonable part of industrial strategy. However, I believe we have too many eggs in the IDA basket. The IDA continue to perpetrate the myth they can solve the jobs problem when they cannot. Every local community is looking to them to fill an advance factory; they cannot but, at the same time, we are spending a great deal of resources there. As Telesis, the industrial White Paper and the three year review of the Industrial Strategy argued, there is a strong need to divert money away from the IDA, to dismantle parts of the IDA and switch the resources into marketing, research and technology, because those are the two areas on which future growth will be based. If my suggestions have a cost factor, I feel the onus is on me to say where the money would come from. I would look at the IDAs resources. I ask the Minister to check for his own sake if there are more people employed in the IDA today than ten years ago and handling a lot less business. I would like an answer to those questions.

This year the Minister introduced charges for the services of CTT. I make a special plea that these would not be arbitrary charges. Charges are not necessarily a bad thing but we must have a degree of selectivity. We have limited resources. We have only so much manpower and fiscal resources to put into export marketing and we cannot back everybody's product so we must be selective and charging people who are prepared to pay for the service is one way of doing this. But I believe the small firms have a major problem of attitude towards export marketing and if the charges are applied in an arbitrary fashion or across the board the very purpose of what CTT aim to do, to pick up the people who have potential products to export and who are not doing it for one reason or another, will be defeated. I feel very strongly that there should be a particular exemption of charges for small firms.

I feel there is a need to put together the Irish Goods Council and CTT. The Irish Goods Council's buyers' campaign ran into difficulties when the EEC ruled it out of order. I believe that CTT's brief should be changed to include import and export trade. If it is possible to draw up a reasonable target and objectives for export markets to create extra jobs and output, it is surely more reasonable, given some degree of Irish consumer patriotism and Irish support for Irish products, that we should be able to displace certain imports with existing Irish industrial capacity. The figures are quite staggering. For instance, in the industrial market £700 million of imported goods could be replaced by the existing produce of Irish firms. I am not talking about a company coming in here to manufacture the product and then substitute it; I say that existing companies in operation could do it. In the industrial market we are talking about industrial engineering and other such products. On the consumer market, the figure is £300 million for products such as food, clothing which could be directly substituted by companies making the exact same product here. I believe a strong promotional drive is badly needed that could co-exist and be consistent with the policies and structures of the EEC but that would specifically reverse those figures and create the jobs.

I turn now to a central point, which I specifically ask the Minister to consider. The Office of Trade and Marketing has now been established, which is a new departure. With institutions such as the Marketing Institute of Ireland and the Marketing Society of Ireland we have a great deal of marketing expertise, and perhaps they have been part of a lobby together with the IMI and others who said we must put marketing first, that marketing is very important. It has become part of our industrial policy jargon.

Are we serious about marketing? Are we to put Deputy Brennan into some job, keep him happy, make it look good that we have a sales manager, or are we to take a real decision about marketing and put it as the central focus to our economic drive? Marketing is so important to us that we should decide our whole economic development strategy, our overall fiscal strategy, on what this country can sell, what this country has that other people want. We have our ESRI and NESC who are advising us as our national planning board on what we should do, whether we should put money into the construction industry, or the clothing industry, or into one subsector or another. Therefore, I am arguing for the consideration of the establishment of a national marketing council, not as another quango, not as having any executive function in marketing practice or methods, but with a central economic role of advising the Government even at the expense of abolishing the ESRI or NESC, so that we could decide as a nation that our economic strategy would be based on what we have to sell that people are prepared to buy.

I have seen the IDA spend a fortune on industrial engineering plant and equipment and setting up big factories and Ireland with no experience in industrial engineering trying to sell into the German market. That does not make much sense. For centuries Britain has had a tradition in that area. They have greater economies of scale and greater expertise than we have, and we expect to take them on. Would it not be better for us to have a national marketing council to tell us that the matters we should pick for sectoral development are the food industry, the tourism industry and a few others, that all our resources should go into those and that we should market them comprehensively? The library of the CTT, which has an abundance of information, should be used to give an essential input to Government economic policy and thinking, and less of this consultation, less of this airy-fairy academic economic thought from the NESC and the ESRI. Get practical people in there who can say what Ireland can produce that people want to buy, and act on that advice. There is a strong case for such a central marketing council. Fine Gael will be preparing policies in all of these areas that I have referred to. Unlike Fianna Fáil, I do not believe that the time to produce one's ideas is on the eve of an election.

The time to discuss these things is now because they are important and urgent. I hope the Minister will consider these points.

I would like to ask the Minister in relation to the operation of CTT why there was such a low uptake of the market entry and development scheme. I was Chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Small Businesses who produced a report on this area in 1983. One scheme, for which there was a great deal of representation and support, was supposed to be the best thing since the sliced pan for marketing in that it was going to facilitate companies with new products to have a market plan, to get the resources into the market and take it from there. Looking at the figures I am disappointed at the low uptake of that scheme. Perhaps the Minister will give some reason for that.

A major change is just around the corner for the way this country trades, that is, the internal market by 1992. I see all the relevant changes that will take place vis-à-vis the internal market, the areas where it has become easier to export and the pressures there will be on the home market, as marketing issues. It is critical that someone takes full responsibility for the implementation of the entire market. I know only too well that the Department of Foreign Affairs see their responsibility as negotiating on such matters as making sure that Ireland gets its point of view across on the way France is delaying with the importation of video tapes.

It is important that the Department of Agriculture and Food should look after the strictly food and agri end of things. Everybody has his own area but nobody thinks ahead and says that these are going to be the problems down the road. In the same way when we joined the EC, traditional industries hit the wall with a very painful smack and other businesses will do the very same thing in 1922. We must be prepared. It need not be that way. I hope something will be done in that area.

In another area the Minister got into a tangle. Perhaps he meant well and was not given the right support. I am talking about the export marketing of fish and beef. It was suggested one day that this might all be done under the aegis of the CTT and another day I had a Dáil question down about it and I was told quite definitely that the functions of the Minister of State did not include the exporting of fish and beef because that is a matter for CBF and BIM. I understand the internal politicking of each Department wishing to hold on to each empire, but if BIM do not have the list of international offices abroad that CTT have in the EC, North American, Asian countries, the Far East, Australia and so on, it makes sense that CTT should have some role in the countries where BIM and CBF are not represented in the export of those products.

I hope this can be sorted out. The Minister will be aware that this was alluded to in the Fine Gael election programme where we said that you might get a better return for your buck if there was a more cohesive and somewhat rationalised market effort where everything that was Irish went through a particular office and you got the maximum output from each employee of CTT. If BIM and CBF have not got offices in America, the Asian countries, the Far East and Australia, why should they retain a monopoly in trying to sell Irish fish? The Minister might clarify that matter from his Department's point of view.

I should like to say a few words about the Minister's speech. I was gravely disappointed because I think it was intimated in the media some time ago that when this Bill came to this House we would have some insight into what he was going to do and the findings of his review of current marketing policy. I have tried to give him some ideas of where that might be, but I have a funny feeling that when the Dáil go into recess there might be a better chance of more column inches and it might appear then, but let us hope not.

That would be marketing, would it not?

Not of policy but more of an individual perhaps. This House should be the primary place for hearing of those policy developments.

Under the industrial White Paper a facility was set up for this industrial management committee which is very cumbersome. It is all the State agencies under the aegis of the Department of Industry and Commerce who were trying to wrestle back control of policy formation from the IDA, God help them!

I wish to make two points in this regard. I do not believe it is in CTT's interest to get sucked into too many company development programmes. Too many people are trying to hold down jobs in the IDA and in other State agencies for schemes that are of questionable value. There is no doubt we have a weakness in terms of company management in many cases and that creates a need for a strong management agency, whether it is the IMI, the IPC or AnCO. We have no streamlined management agency. It does not make sense to ask untrained and improperly skilled people from the IDA or from CTT to set up some nebulous company development programme which is supposed to turn a company around, because that does not happen. It keeps people in semi-State jobs. I have met clients of CTT who are not satisfied, who think CTT are getting too sucked into that area and are not doing the job they were set up to do. I hope that will be rectified rapidly.

There are a number of real success stories in terms of international trade and marketing. There is the Mitty operation in Japan and the Labruska wine company in the United States, of which the Minister of State will be aware. That company invented a product which was tailormade to a particular need in the United States, wine producing, and it was very successful. There is a strong case to pick an Irish company, on a once-off basis, and to do everything to see what can be done to increase its share in particular target markets. There should be integration along those lines. We should pick flagship companies and the State agencies could rally in behind them, whether it is Baileys Irish Cream, Waterford Glass, Ballygowan or whatever and they should be targeted for a particular policy and programme for export marketing.

I will refer to some points of the Bill again tomorrow. I am slightly puzzled that the appeal should be to the Circuit Court. The Minister said he wants the licensing procedure to be fair and fast. There will be some very senior counsel who will advise people who take a case to the Circuit Court that it should be appealed to a higher court, but this is unnecessary. We have reached the stage where planning applications are dealt with by An Bord Pleanála. I would have thought the most sensible thing would be for CTT to decide who should get licences and that the appeals would go to the Minister. That would be a far simpler and more expeditious way of dealing with the matter.

Section 2 (5) states that the applicant has to have the structure, organisation and marketing ability to undertake successfully the sale of export goods. It could be a nightmare in the Circuit Court to define whether or not somebody could do that job successfully, something that would be a projection over a three-year period or more, leaving aside that marketing at the best of times is a high risk venture. There may be no basis for refusing to grant a licence under the terms of section 2 (5). I know the intention is not to be unduly restrictive but I question the terms of that section. I am intrigued the Minister has not said in his speech what form these trading houses will take. Will they all deal with food processing or industrial engineering or will some of them deal with the consumer market and some with the industrial market? I do not think the Circuit Court is a suitable body to deal with this matter because you will end up with expensive litigation. The wording in section 2 (5) is so subjective and so nebulous that it could be a nightmare to refuse anybody a licence.

Under the definition of exported goods there is also the question of whether the new concept of the international traded services sector, such as computer software, would be included as export goods. This is a growing area and I wonder whether we should extend it further. This is a time when, especially with the advent of the withholding tax, we have very skilled people on whom we spent a great deal of money putting them through college — architects, mechanical engineers and different types of consultants in the building industry. Why should we not let them form a trading house and let them sell their skills across the Continent where perhaps there may be some construction activity or public sector contract growth. We have already seen with the Masstock enterprise in the Third World what can be done in this area. The area of exports will be very important in the future especially in terms of the construction industry. If you want the construction industry to export, the best thing to do is to get the professions to export also. I am not talking about people emigrating, I am talking about people selling an Irish service abroad. I would like to know whether, as the Act is currently defined, those international traded services and professional services could be included.

There will be teething problems with those export trading houses and some people will be unhappy with them. There should be some facility in this Bill that would allow, by way of order, for certain changes to be made. I am not an experienced parliamentary draftsman but I do not see in this legislation the terminology included in most legislation that allows by order the Minister to amend the regulations for licensing. Instead of the wording in section 2 (5) it would be better to have, by order, with the publication laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, the full criteria in exact terms whereby people would qualify for licensing, and that if it was subsequently found that changes were needed they would be properly and totally defined.

I have tried to scrutinise this Bill. First, it deals with giving more money to CTT, which is very simple provided the money is available and, second, it proposes to set up export trading houses. We do not take a begrudgers' attitude to any innovation and development. We wish it well but I warn that it will only displace existing export operations. Given the previous examples of the National Trading Corporation and the Irish Export Agency it would be better to proceed on a commission basis rather than on a trading house basis. I would like the Minister to take up the questions I have raised of a quality symbol for Irish exported products, that they would zone in on the German market, that small firms would go for the UK and the Northern Ireland market, that IDA resources would be switched to marketing in R and D, that small firms would be exempt from charges by CTT, that the Irish Goods Council would be taken under the auspices of CTT and that the export marketing of fish and beef products would also be taken under the auspices of CTT. I hope I have been constructive. I assure the Minister that I will be constructive at all times but if I feel his efforts are not up to the required standards I will also be the first to criticise him.

I support the principle of this Bill and I wish it well. It is the first opportunity I have had to express my congratulations to Deputy Brennan in his capacity as Minister of State and, in particular, on being appointed Minister of State for Trade and Marketing. That appointment represents a timely recognition of the importance of the marketing function. I am sure it is not inappropriate to wish him a relatively lengthy tenure in that post but we cannot give him any guarantees in that respect.

Forty-eight hours.

It is not unreasonable to wish a person a chance of getting into a job and doing it well. However, other events may dictate the contrary.

They might bring him to greater things.

One never knows. The measure proposed is a reasonable one. It seeks in a particular way by incorporating incentives into the network of attractive inducements available to people in the entrepreneurial areas to recognise marketing. I have always felt that was something we have been extremely tardy in underlying as an important element in our economic approach. The Bill is about marketing, about making that area more important, more attractive financially and encouraging more people into it. I should like to make a number of points about that area, in particular the way the State pursues it. It is staggering to consider that the cost of running the State agencies involved in marketing is about £150 million annually, a figure which is one-quarter of the total cost of support for industry. That points to the urgent need to focus immediately on the rationalisation of some of those agencies.

Many agencies were set up to deal with specific problems and needs of a decade or two or three decades ago. Unfortunately, one of the difficulties with regard to the growth and development of semi-State bodies is that it is extremely difficult to extinguish them — in the nicest sense of the word — once they have done or are seen to do the task they were given. If we want to make the Bill a success and take account of the concerns which the Minister voiced on a number of occasions, we have to create an efficient machine. The existing machinery, that is the phalanx of semi-State bodies involved in this area, is not efficient or streamlined and needs urgent rationalisation. There are no more than a handful of semi-State bodies that can deal in an efficient, effective and co-ordinated way with the major task of marketing our goods abroad.

The second major need is to focus clearly on what that marketing target should be. One of the difficulties with the Minister's approach in the Bill, and one of the difficulties with our own approach in terms of the grant aid we have given to industry generally, is that it has been largely responsive. Strangely, that is one of the areas where the State could give a lead. I am not sure whether we have decided we are going to be good at certain key areas of economic development or whether we are going to try to be useful in everything. In my view our approach has been to respond virtually to every application for aid or assistance from whatever corner or source it came without any reference to a clear vision of what our marketing and economic purpose should be. It is unreasonable and economically illogical for a small country to try to compete in certain areas of specialisation with countries whose economies of scale, expertise, resource base and so on are far superior to ours.

We should target clearly on the area in which we have a reasonable chance of being excellent and then market in that area. That means we will have to reduce our response, our grant aid and our encouragement of certain areas of economic and industrial activity. I am not saying we should shock them overnight because that would be unreasonable and unjust to people in that area of work but it is illogical for us to pretend we can compete by grant-aiding virtually the whole spectrum of economic activity. If I was asked to give a reason why we are to some extent in the economic doldrums, I would say that was one major reason, together with the size of our State sector generally.

There is a problem of a lack of courage in deciding what we are going to be when we grow up economically and singling out those areas in which we can be the first in Europe and, indeed, the first in the world. Other small countries have done that but I will not bore the House with examples. Some countries with fewer natural resources, less skill and a less educated populace have standards of living and an economic life that is far superior to ours. They have achieved them by saying, "let us target on a niche in the marketplace in which we have a particular aptitude and let us be good at that". If we are to create systems for encouraging trade and marketing, such as the Minister wants, we cannot do that unless we are direct in our approach and at some stage review our whole approach to investment and grant aid along the lines mentioned. That refocusing of our industrial drive and rationalisation of our semi-State bodies are essential criteria if we are to be a success.

It is important that Córas Tráchtála, or any State bodies, or the State body I am referring to, should have a clear remit. That is not the case in relation to any State or semi-State organisation at the moment. I am staggered that there is no clear definition of what is a State-sponsored body. I am not talking merely about the commercial State-sponsored bodies in the corporate sense as we understand them which seems to imply that if they are not in that august list they are bound to be non-commercial which is untrue. There are many State-sponsored bodies who spend public moneys without any accountability. I am talking about any body or organisation that receives State funds. Many of them receive State funds at second or third hand, on occasions from local authorities, health boards or VECs and as far as I can see, none of them is accountable to anybody. Indeed, in many cases they make no response on how they spend money. However, I am talking primarily about the bodies involved in the area of industrial promotion and marketing. I am convinced there is not a clear remit or function or understanding of their role for many of them.

The Minister of State, in the course of a speech on Thursday, 28 May in the House, talked about the need to ask fundamental questions and he addressed some of those in this way, where do we want to focus the attention of CTT? It may be that I am speaking to the converted but the need for an extremely clear remit cannot be overstated. The absence of that clear sense of purpose is, unfortunately and tragically for the State and every worker in it, one of the sad hallmarks of the State effort here. So many people of high capacity have no clear sense of direction or purpose and are relatively aimless in the way in which they respond to the effort which their organisation should be or is pursuing. We owe it to all workers in State bodies, and to the taxpayers, to get that clear statement. I should like to ask the Minister to consider that point when he is considering some form of review of CTT. He hinted in May that it might be in the form of legislation. Although I am not clear why there is a need for legislation to clarify the role and purpose of CTT, he may have more fundamental functions in mind. I would ask him to bear in mind the possibility of extending equity rights to workers because it appears to me that that is the direction in which we should go.

Those three areas are vital if we are to achieve the purposes for which this Bill is intended. First, there is a need to rationalise State agencies. This will not be easy because there will be lobbies and protests but the time has come to try to deal with this area in an organised and systematic way. Second, we should focus on precisely what we are supposed to be doing economically, and, third, we should clarify the function and role of Córas Tráchtála Teoranta because that is not as clear as we, or indeed CTT, would like to to be.

On 28 May the Minister was talking about the areas of concern to his office and spoke about the reduction of the cost penalty on Irish exports. He said that from an export viewpoint our energy cost too much, our telephones cost too much and our insurance costs were too high. One of the ideas my colleagues and I are looking at is the possibility of reviewing our approach to grant aid to industrial development and the possibility of putting a substantial increased sum of money into infrastructure, and obviously a reduced sum into direct grant aid to various companies. In this way the various costs to industry can be reduced, the economy may be helped, the possibility of a Hyster case occurring again, and the inevitable degree of rip-off which occurs in the odd case, may be reduced. This is a thought which I would commend to the Minister for his consideration.

Is that by way of subsidy?

Yes, directly related. For example, I would see it functioning as a direct subsidy to local authorities specifically geared to, say, the roads programme or to any particular need of industry, but it would have to be related directly to the target.

Not to the company?

No, not a direct subsidy to the company. That would probably be administratively cumbersome and might not result in what I would call a filter through to the economy. If we improved our infrastructure in the broadest sense of that word, our economic climate would become more attractive, input costs would be reduced and the need for once-off grant aid of a massive nature to individual companies might not be as demanding in terms of the companies needs to cope with those costs.

The concept of trading houses is reasonable and we support it. This was heralded in the Finance Bill and seems to be a modern, skilful and versatile way of dealing with a specific problem. It is time we recognised the anomalies which existed in terms of our traditional approach to grant aiding only manufacturing industry when there are many service industries, the marketing profession and areas of export and co-ordination of those facilities which are legitimate areas of economic activity, give genuine added value and create employment. Deputy Yeats suggested that all this might do is to displace some existing areas of economic activity, but I am not convinced that that will be the case if what the Minister said is correct. He said there was clear evidence that there were companies who wanted to get involved in this field but which were at a relative disadvantage to those in manufacturing and if one had a choice one went into the area which was more attractive. I wonder if that is the case, and what was the research base for that statement.

Marketing skills is an area where we have some strengths, but I believe we are not in the forefront in this respect. We have a home based economy and many of our companies are introverted. There are immense opportunities abroad which Irish companies rarely think of or seek out. I wonder if more emphasis should be put on every facet of marketing, not just on our economic activity but on our educational endeavour at third level colleges. We do not hear a great deal about this in third level curricula and I wonder if we should start stressing it a little more.

From my experience with third level education — on vocational education committees and in college — I felt it was an academic environment and was not related to the real world. If one spoke about marketing one was looked on as somebody who should be somewhere else because it was not a legitimate area of academic study; it was too close to the sweat and toil of the marketplace. I wonder if we should get a little tougher in that respect and demand more compliance from the educational system with our expectations of what the world needs from our graduates, particularly as we are spending large sums of money in this area.

I do not have any problems with the concept of trading houses. I was relieved to hear the Minister say he does not intend to have an elaborate complex and debilitating process and review of applications. I agree with Deputy Yates that if at all possible we should avoid referral to the courts for anything, but also for this particular purpose. Some form of fair trade ombudsman or an agency might be able to make a sensible assessment. If the Minister turns down an application I assume he will do so for good reason, or at least for a reason which is, to his way of thinking, reasonable in the circumstances. I am not sure that an open-ended appeal to the courts is the way to resolve difficulties. I hope not too many applications will be turned down, and that those who receive licences will be successful.

It is important that the Minister means it when he says that he does not want to add to bureaucracy in the realm of State activity. If he operates an efficient simple system it will be a flagship because one of the complaints we get regularly from people who are trying to get a company off the ground is that they get the umbrella when the sun is shining: they get the money when they prove they do not need it, they get help when they no longer need it, and the degree of paperwork and the cost involved in preparing a business plan for some of these agencies is so off-putting as to be discouraging. I hope that will not occur in this case, and the Minister has given us degree of assurance which I welcome.

It is probably a source of irritation to Coras Tráchtála Teoranta to have this section interpreted as a grant for CTT. As I understand it, this section facilitates the Department in making payable to Córas Tráchtála Teoranta over an unspecified period, grants as the Government of the day see appropriate. I do not know why the section appears in this fashion. I assume it is because other promotional agencies get their money in the same way. In my view, it is a nonsensical way of doing business and I cannot see any difference in principle between the operations of other arms of the State and this one. It may even have an effect on CTT which is undesirable in the sense that coming towards the expiry of the limit, which was £160 million, it may impede or inhibit CTT's activities. They may feel that this will require new legislation. Accordingly, there will be no guarantee and we may have to soft pedal for a year or two. I do not know. Nobody has said that to me but I would be grateful if the Minister would comment on the need for a section like this.

Would it not be more realistic and sensible to dispense with this need for totting up the aggregate amount of the sums which the Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, may pay to Córas Tráchtála? One of the problems, for example, is that it makes no allowance for the real time value on money. It does not make any sense. Obviously, the value of a pound a decade ago is not the same as it is now. It is peculiar way of doing business. Apart from that, it may afford an extra opportunity for CTT to come under the scrutiny of this House with the result that they might be discouraged or even misinterpreted. I am all for scrutiny but in this case it is not the ideal way of doing business. It might be more efficient to look again at financing CTT directly. We have an opportunity annually on the Estimates to look at CTT's performance and this device is somewhat outdated in its approach and does not coincide with my way of thinking in relation to "up and at' em" type of semi-State bodies if the Minister has to come in, presumably in four or five years time, to allocate more money. It is unnecessary and perhaps the Minister will comment briefly on it.

The Minister spoke about the need to give priority to Irish owned companies in playing a full part in bringing about export growth. There is a clear need for that although there should be no distinction between our warmth of response to Irish companies and others. There is sometimes the feeling — I am not sure if it could be scientifically verified — that if you speak with an Irish accent as opposed to German, Dutch or Japanese you get different treatment. I do not see any evidence for this but it is perceived among industrialists and business people that that can happen. We should take every opportunity to give Irish owned companies reasonable encouragement as other countries, including those in the EC, make no bones about encouraging in a specific way — a discriminatory way on occasions — their own companies. We have particular economic problems here and we owe it to our own companies to give them every possible opportunity and not to be daunted by the huge scale and flashy credentials of some of the larger international companies who play the international market and, as we know to our cost, unfortunately on some occasions fly the coop when it suits them.

The problems Irish companies have in relation to exporting should be combated, not merely by the special trading houses, but by the encouragement of some form of co-operative approach in these areas. I am a strong believer in the co-operative idea which, unfortunately, is too often interpreted as a last resort for a failed company. I am talking about a sensible, rational, organised, comprehensive approach by groups of companies with broadly analagous aims in regard to penetrating the marketplace. It should be possible for them — or for CTT in conjunction with them — to create marketing tools which can do a task for a number of companies. I am talking about promotional and advertising material, market research and all the other things which at present many companies are trying to do on their own.

Recently I spoke to a lady in a cottage industry who was literally getting on an aeroplane flying to New York to sell very fine — in so far as I could judge — Irish cheese. She would have been gobbled up before she got to the high street in New York but she was doing it on her own. There is strength in numbers in a case like that and the need for a co-ordinated approach to marketing is vital. I encourage the Minister to develop a range of inducements to facilitate that, apart from the special trading houses which are peculiarly economic and which obviously give particular benefits in the 10 per cent rate of corporation tax and the business expansion scheme incentives which are good in themselves.

I am also pleased to note that, in considering applications, the Minister will insist on ensuring that there are no cowboys. This is an opportunity for people who do not want to get into the heavy capital intensive area or heavy capital investment to make submissions. No doubt, some will see it as an opportunity to make a fast buck. I hope that will be guarded against and the precautions which the Minister outlined seem reasonably adequate.

The Minister said the last increase in an allocation to CTT was made in 1983 when the current level of £160 million was set. He said that the increase now proposed is expected to be enough to cover CTT's activities for about four further years. I do not understand this way of doing business and perhaps the Minister, when looking at the legislation, will consider whether CTT might be funded in a more rational and up to date way.

This is a reasonable attempt to bring in efficient, clearly understandable, intelligible legislation. I commend the Minister for introducing it so speedily as we have been wont in the last week or two to be a bit critical about the time allowed to deal with these issues. This is a fair measure and I hope it will be successful. We look forward to having a detailed discussion on Committee Stage and we will not be obstructive in any way. I commend the Bill to the House and I wish it well.

Like other speakers, I congratulate Deputy Séamus Brennan on his appointment as Minister of State with responsibility for marketing and I wish him success.

There are many welcome features in the Bill but I should like to begin by setting the proposals in context. Let me stress a few assumptions and their importance in relation to discussions on marketing and export level growth. There is an overall assumption in the suggestion that some of the main obstacles to export led growth are marketing deficiencies and an internationally competitive free market. The first qualification that must be made is that the evidence is against that. If you are serious about the economics of marketing, you have to look at facts rather than fantasies. The fact is that the structure of the internationally traded sector in commodities is dominated now more than ever by conditions of oligopoly and monopoly. They are very far away from conditions of perfect competition. Therefore, you have to take that assumption on board and it is not the case that you can simply produce high quality goods more effectively and sell them to the people waiting for commodities to be placed on stalls in a free marketplace alongside each other. What has stayed in place has been both the economic theory and the myth of the policy-makers relying on a rather stagnant economic theory. The economics of perfect competition have long outlived the realities of the marketplace of the world. This is just simple fact.

The second assumption follows logically, which is that increased market competitiveness will result in increased exports which will, in turn, not only increase, somehow or other, the productive base of the economy but it will impact on unemployment. It is significant that this word "unemployment"— the dirtiest word in the Irish economic vocabulary; very few use it now and those who do almost do so at their peril — is not used at all this evening. Let me examine that chain of assumptions for just a second. The fact is that in considering the improvement of Irish exports through marketing we would have to ask initially what are true exports and what are bogus exports.

I shall turn to that explicitly in a moment because it is very necessary to draw a distinction between, for example, companies which are producing goods, seeking to market them and exporting them on to those markets effectively and other companies which are simply using Ireland as a location and by a series of well known price trading arrangements purchasing commodities at one price in a tax favourable environment, selling them on in certain conditions and grossly inflating the actual volume of exports. I know we are a people known for our flair for myth and fantasy, but very often there is no greater example of myth and fantasy than the total volume of our exports. They have to be corrected to try to get an idea of what is, in fact, something realistic happening within the Irish economy that might conceivably turn into employment generation.

I am not arguing for a second against export led growth. I am being very careful about this and simply expressing a qualification that I believe to be a reasonable one in terms of traditional — and I emphasise that word—centrist economic theory at present. It is the further assumption that even if such exports were real they automatically trickle down with benefit to the entire community, resulting in employment. This again ignores one of the great realities of modern economic trading, that is, that exports are far more capital intensive now than they ever were. The Minister has wisely stayed off the unemployment theme for that very reason because, like a person with a decent training in economics, he understands that what can be achieved within this realm is something which will be minuscule in relation to its contribution to unemployment or job creation in Ireland. He equally would realise that not only far from acting on unemployment it certainly cannot impact on poverty.

One of our great dilemmas of the present time within the social policy — and those of us who have the honour and privilege to serve in this House must bear that in mind — is that income can no longer be simply handled by an approach towards the economics at work and neither can it be reduced simply to the notion that by increasing marketing you increase exports, reduce unemployment and reduce poverty. That is unadulterated rubbish in conventional terms. Unfortunately, people who make a living from peddling such fantasies do not have to live with the reality of unemployment and far less with the reality of poverty and thus the theory outlives its victims.

I want to turn in some detail to some of these assumptions. I welcome this Bill but I am in no doubt whatsoever as to what it can achieve. I simply wish the Minister's initiatives well. I shall turn to them in a moment. I want to correct this notion. I shall suspend my judgment for a moment about some of these assumptions and concentrate on the text of the Bill before us. One should ask on Second Stage why this legislation is necessary. First, the legislation is once again a motivational exercise. It is not taking an initiative in terms of establishing State agencies, or State trading companies, or anything like that. It is inspirational. That is the modern term used. I have described this in much less heady language very often as trying to stir the carcase of a dead cow into action. That is rather like what getting the Irish private sector to produce at all, to trade at all, to train their workers at all is like. We take from general taxation — massive levels of taxation by European standards — and expend it across a variety of agencies to stir this dead cow into life and hope that she will give milk.

The fact of the matter is that, looking at the historic performance of the Irish private sector, to its credit it has never gone so far as to say that it wanted to create a single job in the Irish economy. It always wanted to trade at a profit. It did that on the domestic market for a while in the old days of protection, and gave us that phrase which the literary people like of "old money". Then when we were opened up to the winds of free trade, the winds blew and a great number of industries went to the wall. People were not able to trade in the new circumstances and we got involved in a whole series of incentives to the Irish sector. We also became involved in inviting foreign investment here. I am not arguing against that either, but I do object to the notion frequently put forward that such companies locate here out of some kind of international benevolence, as we would be led to believe.

The truth of the matter is that we have hopped from one economic strategy to another. We had a period in the early days of this State of moving quickly into protectionism. After protectionism, after opening up the Irish economy so-called, we began to look for foreign led investment in relation to manufacturing. At that stage our official theories were hostile to the services sector and hostile to natural resource based development. I remember listening to the most atrocious attacks on people like myself who suggested that. Then, rather late in the day, our Industrial Development Authority became converted to the idea of a natural resources development and also to internationally trading services. They are now more or less saying that internationally trading services can be the leader in providing jobs and I hope they are successful for the sake of the highly trained, highly educated young people who may take up these jobs.

What is missing from it all is any attempt to link the population projections which Dr. Brendan Walsh and others were providing in the sixties into any kind of strategy of income, of work, of industrialisation, of trading, of marketing, or of wealth creation, and so forth. That must be said because, let us be perfectly clear, I am responding to the mention in the Minister's speech of the context in which these efforts are being made.

In 1983, a Bill very similar to the present one passed through this House. The purpose of that Bill at that time was to provide £160 million for Córas Tráchtála. The purpose of this Bill, as has been pointed out by previous speakers, is to increase that figure to £260 million, but also to create the concept of licensed special trading houses which have been described by the Minister. In this regard it is rather to attract special trading houses to come into existence. Here we have a small problem. Different economists commenting on Ireland's Industrial strategy have commented on a number of things. They have commented upon the fact, as has been mentioned already, of the need to establish in the internationally trading centre significant niches in which is established excellence with which we could identify.

We have part of the embryonic technology already. We could purchase technology and direct our policy at that particular niche in the world market. They also said that in many of these identified sources of hope in relation to trading, the level of investment was higher than could be provided by the Irish private sector and it certainly was beyond the terms of credit provisions and was far beyond what the Irish banking sector would invest in. Our banking sector, modelled as it is on a conservative British banking sector, is totally at odds with the banking sector in Europe. The dogs in the street know that.

In the European money market one can borrow on the basis of inspirational technology, on the basis of patents, on the basis of any kind of export opportunites one may have. Trying to borrow here for a new venture in productive manufacturing, in servicing, in trading, in marketing, or whatever, not only would one be asked to supply impossible guarantees but the time horizon is too short, the collateral requirements are too severe and one would be asked to take the risk of bankrupting oneself and to put the roof over one's head at risk. All of this occurs in a banking environment that is enjoying high interest rates with little risk taking.

Over the past seven months I have been accumulating a list of the receipts of the Irish banking sector from local authorities, health boards, semi-State agencies and so on. They have been making a fortune on no risk activity charging a rate that is admittedly their best rate to their highest borrowing customers with little risk attached. The atmosphere of risk taking or of risk taking facilitation does not exist in Irish credit institutions, and it never has. They will hop along for a ride when the State has taken most of the risks. They will fund small borrowers willing to take risks if some major investor comes along, but they are not innovative. The point one of the ERSI's most distinguished workers, Mr. O'Malley, has made in one paper after another published by the institute is that we would probably need to concentrate on a number of very large companies and we would need to give them State funds and establish State agencies if we are ever to get off the ground in relation to achieving some impact and to capturing some employment. Reference was made to other European examples. This is exactly what took place in countries about which we are hearing so much. It is what took place in Denmark, Finland and so on. In Denmark it was a mixture of State and private purchasing strategy in relation to technology and the evidence is that it has worked in a number of ways.

I am in favour of increasing the funding to CTT. We have no choice in relation to trying to market abroad. While I said this was a Bill which was inspirational, trying to motivate this sluggish entity, people should not be expected to believe that from me. The surveys of the Irish Management Institute, hardly a radical left wing rhetoric using organisation, showed that less than 3 per cent of companies had a marketing function at all and in the under 5 per cent league was personnel functions. Companies neither thought it important to relate to their employees nor to sell but there were lots of other kinds of courses on offer about how to feel like an executive in a decaying Irish company, or how to have pretensions in a company selling very little internationally.

I spent my life reading brochures for such courses and I spent time reading the largely conservative Irish press which day by day becomes more of a marketing organ in itself for the egos of the people who have large shareholdings in them. There is just an obscenity in all of this. There is no hard thinking. There is just sloppy thought given to the idea that an international seminar, for example, given the conditions of the Irish economy with 250,000 people unemployed, would bring Mr. McGregor and other people like him from Britain to give us lectures on how to break strikes and wreck the British industry. It is an extraordinary thing. Let us not be drawn down that road.

We should be under no illusions. Interest rates can drop here and I think they will. Equally, our exports may increase. According to an OECD report our present inflation rate is probably at its lowest in 20 years. We are having high exports, but we are not sure whether or not they are real. Interest rates are dropping but where is this investment taking place? Where investment is taking place it is taking place in speculative rather than productive ventures. The evidence there is not mine either. They are the views of Dr. Whitaker expressed again and again when he witnessed to the appearance in the seventies on the Irish Stock Exchange of the number of operators who were effectively asset strippers, who bought shell companies, looked at the balance sheets, sold the assets, displaced the employees, threw them on the waste heap and, at the same time, handed the bill for creating jobs to the Government and to the IDA. They became millionaires and stayed there to impress people with simple peasant outlooks with their ostentatious lifestyles and their lavish behaviour.

I have listed countries where such behaviour is not only anti-social but illegal. They were asset strippers who did not create jobs. I could give lists of them here, but the Chair would probably encourage me not to do so. I have many other places in which to do that, and I would not hesitate for a second. The fact is that that is the kind of person who was investing in Ireland in the seventies and who was abusing the Stock Exchange for that purpose. They went like a dose of salts through some of the older companies, keeping the name of the company, the shell of the company operating and so forth, without creating any wealth that would create a single job. At present, if they are listened to, they are lecturing us endlessly on the spirit of enterprise, the spirit of the dog kennel. These people are voracious, greedy, anti-social, anti-national people who decided they could make a vast fortune out of buying companies, throwing the workers on the scrap heap, not creating genuine new jobs and then deciding, by the sale of assets and other things that fluctuate, to invest in different things.

There are no ethics in this at all. No other country in Europe has the same relationship between investment in shares that are quoted on the Stock Exchange and newspapers. The relationship that exists in Ireland is one that is not allowed in a number of countries. It would be illegal because of the jaundiced intersection that is possible. I keep returning to this because I hope, if this Dáil lasts, to be in a position to bring legislation before the House through Labour Party private Bills which will put an end to this jaundiced intersection about which I speak.

In 1985 Irish exports reached a level of £9,743 million producing a surplus of £314.8 million over imports. I welcome those figures in relation to trade. Anyone should welcome them. I do not want to dispel the mood of optimism that is being created. I realise that there is something to this. There are times in human history when feelings take over from reason and they propel people along a certain road.

The Government are trying to create a psychological atmosphere of optimism that we will get things going. I like those phrases, and people should be encourged if they believe in them, but it is useful to do a little thinking as well.

The question about the surplus of exports over imports is good. The Minister will say there is a problem about these figures, but I am not asking him to solve that. However, there is a question about the way in which they are calculated. Perhaps of more value is the fact that there has been a sustained performance of surplus of exports over imports and there is no doubt that we should give credit to CTT for what they have contributed to achieving this surplus.

When I have met some of the leading members of Córas Tráchtála I have been very impressed with what they said about the importance of marketing. They have attempted to do something the private sector was not willing to do. There have been improvements also in the trade of food and in the trade of technological equipment of a certain kind. However, I enter a caution here in relation to chemicals, information products and technology. The figures should be adjusted. The question is whether we are more an international warehouse than a trading economy and when the rates for the warehouse change will other warehouses bid us out of existence?

The final reports of Digital Ireland — which is located in my city and which is very welcome there — refer to the fact that we have been worth nearly £1 billion to them in terms of their being able to put their products through the country to the different market locations. The argument people always come back to me with is, "Should you not be grateful they are doing it here rather than anywhere else?" Of course, like the poor peasant who went up to the landlord and said: "Would your honour like to give us a little more for our potatoes this year, sir?" I have to take my peasant's cap off as well as a citizen of this country and say: "Yes, sir, thank you very much sir, and please do not go to Costa Rica or Portugal or wherever".

Because I cannot bring myself to lie about these things, it is my regret that I have to strike such a bleak note. Having listed the successes about exports and Córas Tráchtála's role in the story, the successes and the public relations hype that is being built around these trading surpluses is distracting from the deep core problem of the Irish economy. The deep core problem of the Irish economy is unemployment and the poverty that is flowing from it. What is happening in relation to unemployment is that more and more we are moving, for example, in the inner city area of Dublin, to a third generation of unemployed people. In other parts of the country there is a second generation of unemployed people. With unemployment there comes a chain of non-participation. Because people have no basic incomes — the Social Welfare Act, 1981, is a panoply of different provisions of assistance of different kinds — they are falling down through the floor of participation in society and they are not participating more and more. We are creating a new culture around unemployment; we are creating an under-class.

The point I want to make, and I cannot make it sufficiently strongly, is that it is wrong to say that performance in the export-import ratio is a sufficient answer to those who are asking about economic performance in relation to unemployment. It is not justified by the fact that the majority of academic opinion in economics and social science, to their eternal disgrace, have neglected the unemployment problem. It has turned economics into something like a cross between predicting the racing page of a paper and soccer results. There is no point in quoting export-import figures as other than just what they are. They are trading surpluses and they might or might not mean something. In order to get their full meaning one has to tease out what is involved in the actual export, how much of it was price fixing between different locations and so forth. It has to be adjusted back so that one can get the true value of it. It does not help any more than just that. It is one indicator and it should not be used and abused as it is at present.

The figure for unemployment at present stands at over 250,000. This belies the well-used maxim of all the party leaders I hear speaking about unemployment. They are decent people but I think they believe this dangerous nonsense about economics. They say that exports create jobs, sacrifice creates jobs and low wages create jobs. This is what I hear every day. The fact is that gradually we are getting the interest rates that are more favourable — although it is a slower operation than any of us would wish — we are getting all the incentives to industry, we are getting the lowest inflation rate in 20 years, we are getting a curtailment on incomes, we are curtailing public expenditure but we are not getting the jobs.

Let us keep our heads about all of this. Export we must and export we must into niches in the world economy in which we can develop an excellence. We must do this effectively and establish agencies such as the Minister described. However the Minister is not establishing these agencies: he is making himself available to license them. The problem about that is that not only is the Minister available to license these agencies but, as the Minister said honestly, they have to have certain criteria laid down. It is correct to lay down criteria but I cannot see how you can on the one hand say that people have to have an established expertise, marketing skills, knowledge and so forth and at the same time start from scratch trying to bring in new people and new intelligence. That will be very difficult and I am not here to make it more difficult; I am simply saying that I identify a paradox within it.

The most interesting figure to look at in all of this is that as we went through the years exports increased. In 1981 exports were £4,777.6 million and imports were £6,578.4 million. At that stage the imbalance was on the side of imports over exports. That has been turned around and it is a good thing. The average industrial wage in 1981 was £112.25, output per worker was 108.4 and unemployment was 141,000. In 1982 exports were £5,691.4 million and imports were about £6,816.2 million, the average industrial wage was £126, the output per worker had grown to 110.5 and the unemployment figure was 179,000. I could go on but I do not want to be tedious. The figures were beginning to turn around and the output per worker was growing. In 1981 it was 108.4, in 1982 it was 110.5, in 1983 it was 126.4, in 1984 it was 146.8, in 1985 it was 15.6. and in 1986 it was 164.2. The output per worker was growing all the time and the incentives to produce, to trade and export were growing but, at the same time, the figures were growing inexorably. In 1981 there were 141,000 unemployed; in 1982, 179,000; in 1983, 208,000; in 1984, 225,400; in 1985, 239,900 and in 1986, when we had those good trading figures we had 250,200 unemployed. I do not want to hear again the suggestion that by simply turning the trade figures around we are impacting on unemployment. It is not happening. It is a contribution but what has to be done is that the export figures have to be adjusted, and you have to look at the employment content of them and the way in which wages are calculated. Then you will find that a different strategy is needed.

In fairness to the Minister of State he has not said that what he is proposing will solve the unemployment problem, but he is at the trading tip of a set of economic policies that are failing in relation to unemployment and will continue to fail because they are not really looking at the productive sector of the Irish economy. We would all like if there were a productive economy but there is not an investment strategy, there is not an incomes policy of some kind that would be able to ensure some kind of basic income, there is no intent to change the social policy that would create a basic income, nor is there any real concern about the chain of deprivation that exists.

Let us be careful about how Mrs. Thatcher can say that the export order books of Britain are full, fuller than they have been for many years at a time when not only have all the workers gone from the north of England manufacturing sector but there are chains on the doors of the factories and the managers have gone and left that part of Britain. They are trading very well in Britain but they are trading existing produced commodities which do not have the same knock-on effect on production as we would hope here. The figures I have quoted show that exports have doubled in five years, with a surplus of exports over imports for the past two years. Despite a disgraceful reduction in the paid workforce we have fewer people working productivity of workers has continued to grow from a base of 100 in 1980 to 164.2 in 1986. Wages, although they show a steady increase, have in fact fallen behind the real cost of living and as the productivity rates indicate workers are getting less money for an ever increasing output.

It gives me no pleasure to quote these statistics. They are stark and unpleasant reminders that exports do not necessarily mean jobs. They show that despite a rise in productivity, a growth in exports and a reduction in jobs, the Government and the business sector still come back for more. They want more. They still want to pay less. They still want to get away with having fewer workers. They still want more incentives paid for by the taxpayer. Now they want another source of inspiration. The position is even worse than that. We are now, at the stage of being lectured every day as to what we must do if we are to be competitive. The fact is that the most uncompetitive thing in European trading history has been that the very private sector who are lecturing everybody at present. What is private about them? They do not train their workers, they get depreciation on their equipment, they get writes off in relation to what is one of the lowest tax regimes in terms of production in Europe. They are assisted in every way. Their workers are educated by the State. Their export agencies are trying to sell for them. When some of the companies get into trouble, that news is never published. The first question addressed by the media usually is if there has been a strike in the company. The question that is never asked by the Irish media — it is afraid to ask it — is if there has been bad management.

I should like to see the history of Fóir Teoranta produced before this House because it would show one long agonising litany of the incompetence, laziness, bad training, bad orientation towards business and so forth which closed down the work prospects of thousands of workers. We must ask, too, whether rises in productivity have meant greater rewards for workers. They have not meant a rise in living standards that go beyond income. As there is a higher productivity per worker, as there was in 1980, of about 64 per cent, the ordinary worker leaving the workplace is witnessing a cutback in State activity in a whole range of areas, in education, in services provided by local authorities, health and so on. This is an incredible situation and I am availing of this opportunity to raise the matter because it is very important.

Our export policy was funded from the Exchequer in 1983 to the extent of £160 million. The present Bill could conceivably raise this figure within four years to £260 million. I hope the trade figures will continue to go right but I must ask to what extent it will impact on the kind of problems to which I have referred. I am not, unfortunately, as enthusiastically optimistic as the Minister of State and his colleagues. I want to refer to the difficulty the Minister has in setting up a State initiative to try to lure the Irish private sector to get itself together to start trading and marketing. At paragraph 6.6 of the White Paper on Industrial Policy it is stated:

Financial institutions generally are not geared to the provision of finance where no asset backing is available as collateral. Nor are they geared to the accommodation of a repayment pattern entirely related to the results on an investment such as that associated with the new export project. To overcome these financial constraints it is proposed that the risk attaching to such investment be shared by the state; the financial institutions and the exporters. CTT will accordingly introduce a market entry and development finance scheme on a pilot basis.

People do not have to believe my views about the economy. That is what the White Paper had to say about the financial institutions. It rather reminds one of the greedy undertaker waiting for the people to die all around him. The Irish financial institutions fit well into that image. I have not seen — and I read their annual reports — where they have enthusiastically taken a new patent, a new technology or a group of scientists and said to them "the bank has money to set you up". Deputy Yates wanted to go to the German market. One would not get very far except to the poor house with the philosophies the banks have in relation to collateral. It is antiquated, it is wrong in terms of time horizon, it is too short and it is completely wrong in relation to the strength of the collateral they are asking. They are a perfect reflection of a decaying economy rather than an economy of growth. I am not sure how this can be changed around. I may have some ideas about it. It is unlikely that I will have in the short term an opportunity of bringing about change in this area but there are things which could be done in relation to credit policy. I am sure the Minister of State experiences the same kind of frustration as I experience in relation to the conservative banking policy under which Irish exporters suffer.

What the spirit of the White Paper suggests is that it is rather like children deciding who will put their toe out, and saying, "let us all put our toes out together". The attitude in the White Paper was that the State should put its toes out. It could put its big toe out as it always does and gradually the last people to put their toe out would be the financial institutions. Before we knew where we were we might have a whole foot outside in the cold. That is the interpretation in the White Paper. What we do not have is any suggestion that should our little toes be covered with gold, we should have a share in the rewards when we had drawn it back. There is no suggestion about sharing profits but rather that the unemployment burden be borne disproportionately by those whose colleagues have produced higher productivity, and who have watched their colleagues disappear from the workplace.

I welcome the improvement in the export position but this improvement is in the interests of the financial sector. The community in general have not been the beneficiaries. Despite the criteria laid down by Córas Tráchtála and the spelling out of clear priorities for industry in Ireland business has taken what suits its needs and left what it does not require at this time. I am a little weary of listening to spokespersons for the Confederation of Irish Industry talking about the great octopus of the State when they themselves are beneficiaries of a whole raft of State agencies. What they are saying is that it would be nice to freeze the State so that it would enhance productivity and we could continue to take from the sections we have been taking from for some time.

In relation to the theory adduced in the Minister's speech — he is correct in some parts at least about the identification of markets — the export market has grown. If you take it separate from the figure as to the growth in exports a good question to ask might be, and perhaps the Minister might address this, which markets are we performing in? Are they markets we have lost, which markets are we penetrating for the first time? This is a much more interesting question for a number of reasons. We still have an over emphasis on the British and North American trade. Equally, and I heard a great deal about this, we have the benefits of trading within the large block which constitutes the European Community which is left somewhat unexploited. There are a number of reasons for this. It is not as simple as Deputy Yates suggested. He was going to storm the German market with his products: may it work for him but the fact is that it is not simple as that. He is right in adducing an element of a more general problem that there are many aspects of the European market which we have left unexploited.

There are two other sources of markets we have neglected totally. One is the Latin American market which, for reasons of our own, we have expressed very little interest in. Despite the growth in population in the world and the increase in the need for food, the easiest contract for the supply of many of our products is in fact in that part of the world where there is a favourable orientation towards us but we have been unwilling to explore or to penetrate that market. This is reflected equally in references made to this by our attitude in diplotmatic terms towards that continent. We have one representative in the entire continent of Latin America, our diplomatic representative in Buenos Aires. You then travel across the whole continent to Washington to get the next person who is accredited to the whole Latin American or Central American continent. We are not interested. On the other hand we have the obscenity of having invited the South Koreans to open an embassy in Dublin. Let me not stray off on that because I would be quickly reminded to stick to the terms of the Bill. We have neglected the Latin American market.

We have also neglected a whole series of markets, including the African markets where we had marvellous opportunities for taking diplomatic initiatives. Several African countries have indicated to me while I was visiting that they were anxious to trade with Ireland as opposed to other countries because of our history and so forth. But our history has been rewritten. We are no longer the decolonised country anxious to sell abroad to countries such as Latin America and the struggling African countries and so forth. We are the neo-colonised country that has an obsession about the British and American markets. That is why we neglect markets which we think might upset our United States trading partners or would upset a trans-national or multinational company. Equally we open diplomatic relations with these countries. We will pay a terrible price for that kind of exclusivity as probably the greatest crash in economic terms of this century is not unlikely — I will be cautious — to happen in the United States economy. It is staring everybody in the face that this is likely to happen in the next ten years and our dependance on that kind of trading relationship makes us all the more vulnerable.

One of the points I made — I could only find the 1985 report from Córas Tráchtála which was the latest available to me when preparing my remarks on the Bill — is that half of the exports from Irish owned companies in both the manufacturing and primary sectors went to the United Kingdom, as compared with a quarter of the exports from foreign owned companies. On the other hand, the European market, other than the UK, accounted for one-eighth of exports from indigenous firms and close to half of the exports from foreign owned companies which were established in Ireland since our membership of the European Communities with the explicit purpose of supplying continental Europe.

My point is that the Irish indigenous firms, faced with a vast European market, only export one-eighth to that market while at the same time the companies who have come and located here are selling half of what they are selling into that market. We have to examine that and stop evading the question of the pricing policy of these companies and its implication for the true export figures. The annual report of Córas Tráchtála also makes the point that the diversification of Ireland's export market has not, therefore, been evenly spread between Irish and foreign owned companies. The importance of the United Kingdom market for our indigenous industries should not be underestimated but, while exports to the UK are increasing, we are simultaneously losing market share in a number of sectors of particular importance to indigenous industries. Córas Tráchtála make the point that at least we should be able to hold our own in the market close to our capital base.

I find Deputy Yates's suggestion — who I never realised was a romantic — that we should tell small exporters to concentrate on Britain and tell people over a particular size to go for markets other than Britain a truly extraordinary one. There should be some assistance to try to keep what we have in the UK market and see whether we can change our product content of sections of that market. What we gather from the statistics and my interpretation of them is that the pattern of Irish export growth gives one the picture of a self-propelled market, responding to the daily needs of consumers and not projecting itself or providing leadership, and certainly not exhibiting any policy acceptance of what has been suggested by some of the best economic opinion, that is, that previous choices had been exercised in relation to niches in the international market and decisions on levels of excellence established. This is not a criticism of Córas Tráchtála. It is a criticism of the policy makers who are responsible for the productive side of the Irish economy.

May I ask whether the debate is concluding at 11 o'clock or 11.30 p.m.?

The debate concludes at 11 o'clock.

In that case I am very grateful to Deputy Brady. I am anxious to facilitate him as I understand he wants to contribute to this debate. I shall be brief and draw my remarks to a close.

In welcoming this Bill I do so with a cautionary injunction to the Minister that we are, in fact, operating a policy at present in which exports occupy a part, but the construction of that export policy goes far beyond the bounds of what it would warrant. We have pumped millions of pounds into the industrial sector and provided generous incentives to encourage industrial development, let me take a chance on a figure that I recall from somewhere. Would it be £1.3 billion for about five years? We provide corporate rate taxes of 10 per cent, grants, interest subsidies, loan guarantees, advisory services, employment grants, retraining grants and so on. I welcome one point in the Minister's speech. He said there will be criteria for evaluation of what are realistic proposals, but I notice there is no reference to employment creation potential. When chapter 6 of the White Paper on Industrial Policy looked at export development, it decided it would also avoid any reference to the employment creation potential of the particular activity. The fact is that a surge in exports can go on and can increase and the trade figures can stay right, even if some of them are a bit bogus in the method of their calculation. The fact is — and this is not a reflection on anybody; it is the nature of things — that a surge in exports will not be accompanied by a depression in the unemployment figures. It may not lead to creation of wealth and jobs and true growth. For that reason we should be cautious in what we propose to achieve.

The Minister is not assisted in his new ministry by the confusion of functions that exists, for example, in the marketing of fish and marine related products which is now staying with BIM. The Minister will have some difficulties with the start-up of his new trading agencies. I hope he is successful in this but the concept of the trading houses is very much an abstraction at present. I want to ask a question about it. How does the Minister propose — and we can deal with this on Committee Stage — to deal with the phenomenon of fronting? Let us say that you already occupy a portion of an international market and you decide you want to control the supply to that market how do you deal with the situation where you get an Irish national — and there has been no shortage of them in the many different activities — to front for you? I think the Minister is as anxious as I am to stop the abuse of the new incentives that will take place.

I disagree with those who have criticised the Circuit Court procedure because I think it is a good idea to have an appeal outside the system that would be able to answer the question of favouritism of one kind or another. Perhaps the idea of bodies that make decisions on their own decisions within their own realm of accountability is quite limited in terms of accountability. Therefore, I welcome the principle of the Bill and the initiative the Minister is taking. I wish him well in his ministry. I hope he will be successful in establishing this and in building in all the cautions. As somebody who has been exposed to what was once the respectable discipline of economics, I urge him to continue his efforts acclaiming that exports can solve the unemployment problem and to bring what influence he can to bear on the members of the Cabinet even at the peril of reducing some of their optimism.

Time has overtaken me. I had intended to make a more lengthy contribution than I am permitted to do now. At the start I offer my belated congratulations to the Minister of State in charge of trade and marketing, Deputy Séamus Brennan, and wish him continuing success in his portfolio.

Unlike the previous speaker, I give this Bill my absolute, unqualified welcome. It is the lifeblood of this economy that we engage in the most energetic exports, and the concept of special trading houses situated abroad will provide a breath of fresh air throughout the exporting part of our economy. Given the recent success — the Minister referred to £1 billion of exports within a calendar month and a projected £10 billion — and the fact that over half our GNP is created by exports, nobody can overstate the importance of this area for growth.

Let me concentrate on a few areas of our export initiative I would like to see the Minister take particular note of. One is our food industry. In the context of the Chernobyl experience and the fact that Europe is reeling from the effects of that catastrophe, the market is wide open for vegetables, processed foods and all exports of that kind into Europe. There is a very pressing need to be energetic as we are a market garden of Europe, and to exploit that market to the greatest extent possible. Consider the huge success of An Bord Bainne. We are proud to see "Kerrygold", to mention one product, on sale throughout Spain, the Canary Islands and so forth. That is an example of the type of success that can flow.

I regret that the Minister had to criticise some of our manufacturers for lack of consistency in meeting deadlines. This is important, too.

The second area is high technology specialised industries where again we can exercise great influence. In the optical industry, Bausch and Lomb, in Waterford, to mention one, employ 500 people and a great example of the successful model of an export industry. Many European countries fly in people to look at the operation of that plant. There are many others. Let me refer briefly to the impending success of a new concept of Irish technology, that is space technology. We read of the great success of one of our prominent professors in astrophysics, Professor Susan McKenna-Lawlor, who is fronting a tremendous advance in space technology for this country. This is a growth area that demands specialised training for the export yield from that type of industry. The profits are quite substantial. Again this area should be encouraged.

I appeal to the Minister to use his good offices to tap the resources of many of our highly trained graduates who have had to emigrate in recent years through no fault of their own. It is a fact of life that we have a huge young population. It is a temporary problem which will abate as years go by but for the moment we have this harsh reality of emigration taking place particularly in the area of high technology and of professional people going abroad. If the Minister taps into these people who are abroad in many different countries, corrolates their endeavours and brings them together I am sure he will find that there will be a bond among them in doing their bit for their country. Perhaps they will have had experience of work effort in the country in earlier years and can be brought together to assist in our export drive. Given incentives of this kind a 10 per cent setoff involving private enterprise is what it is all about. Many countries have shown that private enterprise, given the correct incentives, the right temperature and the right climate in which to trade, is the way to create lasting jobs in manufacturing industry. Things are looking bright at the moment. We have stablised inflation and our interest rates are coming down. At last a greater work ethic is developing where people value their work much more than they used to. These atttitudes——

On a point of order, I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but is it intended that the Minister reply to the Second Stage debate? Is anything provided in Standing Orders for that?

There is no provision in the Order that the Minister shall do so.

Every speaker who has spoken has asked the Minister of State to reply to one thing or another on Second Stage. I appreciate that the Deputy is being very brief but as the previous speaker took so long I would think it desirable that the Minister of State would reply.

I appreciate that but my contribution is for six short minutes and I am encapsulating my remarks. I intend to give the Minister that opportunity.

When Deputy Yates has been longer in the House he will appreciate that the Minister can speak on Committee Stage.

Given the present climate in the country, there is a mood where investors are prepared to set up industries here, and this type of climate must be encouraged. The way to develop our economy is by huge success in our exports and keeping our dates of supply lines. It is important that we do not get the bad name of not supplying our goods in time. The Minister referred to that.

I regret that I must finish my remarks. I have cut things down to the absolute minimum. I welcome the legislation. It is imaginative and I wish the Minister every success in its implementation.

The Minister of State has three minutes.

I want to use these few minutes to thank Deputy Yates, Deputy Keating, Deputy Higgins and Deputy Brady for their contributions and particularly for their courtesy and their good wishes. I thank them all for the very constructive proposals they have put forward and which I will respond to in detail on Committee Stage of the Bill tomorrow night. I will be asking your indulgence, Sir, at that time to expand on the large number of areas which have been raised by the speakers, ranging from the detail of the trading house proposal to a reasessment of CTT's activities and to a much more fundamental reassessment of our whole economic stragegy, a matter raised by Deputy Higgins. We have a lengthy time for Committee Stage and I hope to take at that time the points Deputies have put forward.

I value and welcome the list of recommendations put forward by Deputy Yates. In concluding this Bill I will proceed in a spirit of co-operation so that the ideas which have been put forward by the speakers can be taken account of, if possible before we conclude. However, given the tight schedule we are operating on that may not be strictly possible on this occasion, but the spirit of what they are saying I assure them will be taken into account. I will avoid dealing with the details of the trading houses and details of the queries raised in regard to the abuses which can arise, why there is need for the word "special", the Circuit Court appeal and all those items. In the time available to me I will not attempt to get into all of that.

I welcome the Second Stage debate on this Bill. I believe the new office of trade and marketing is providing a focus for and a leadership to Irish exports which they require. I hope to bring before this House in the future a package of measures which will give us that focus to a greater extent. I am also looking at the affairs of CTT to see how best we can focus their activities in the future. As I said publicly many times, I want to take the soft edge off the subject of marketing and I want to take away the notion in this country that CTT are a soft touch. I want to encourage Irish industry to be market led as opposed to being just production led for its own sake. I believe firmly, from my examination to date, that there are huge opportunities abroad for Irish exports of goods and services. I hope my office in the months and, I hope, the years ahead can show leadership in that regard. I ask the House to agree to the Second Stage. I will reply in detail to all the points made when we come to Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Arrangements have already been made for Committee Stage.

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